Hidden in the Day of the Lord's Anger

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Hidden in the Day of the Lord's Anger

Postby Sunny on Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:26 pm

I have bounced back and forth between pre-wrath and post-trib, but I am leaning more toward post-trib now.

However, for the past 10 years or so, the Lord has GREATLY impressed upon me that He will hide me in the time of trouble -- to the point I have come to believe it completely.

I know that many Christians will be martyred. But I also believe that many will be saved, because Jesus said that those days would be shortened for the elect's sake.

So if we are here for the full outpouring of wrath, I believe that we will be supernaturally "kept" from the hour of trial, as promised in Rev. 3:10 -- if we are walking closely with the Lord, obey Him to the best of our understanding, and above all, TRUST Him implicitly.

I did the full prep thing for Y2K, and ended up throwing away thousands of dollars of old food and giving away equipment that I couldn't use. I feel that it is futile to try to stockpile enough to last us through this period.

And if you do stockpile it, there is a very good chance that it will be taken from you by desperate people.

I am not saying you shouldn't prepare. I am just saying that those are things that can be shaken, and it's time to put our faith in the things that can't be shaken.

I am trusting God to lead me, guide me, protect me, defend me... and feed me if necessary. I am willing to die for Him, but I trust Him to protect me until it is His time for me to go.

Here are some of my favorite scriptures promising that we can be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger:

Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.


Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock


Psa 31:19 [Oh] how great [is] thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for them that fear thee; [which] thou hast wrought for them that trust in thee before the sons of men!
Psa 31:20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.


Psa 143:9 Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me.


Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.



And finally, the Tribulation Psalm. No other time in history could all these apply other than the Tribulation.

Psalm 91

1. He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2. I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, [and] from the noisome pestilence.

4. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.

5. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; [nor] for the arrow [that] flieth by day;


6. [Nor] for the pestilence [that] walketh in darkness; [nor] for the destruction [that] wasteth at noonday.

7. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee.
8. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.


9. Because thou hast made the LORD, [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;

10. There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways
.

12. They shall bear thee up in [their] hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I [will be] with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16. With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
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Postby ThomasDGW on Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:03 pm

Sounds like straight thinking to me, Sunny.
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Postby Sunny on Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:59 pm

I often read where the Bible says that Jesus "marveled at their unbelief."

I see that so much.... people say that they trust God, but when the rubber meets the road, most of us want to hedge our bets. :)

I also base my trust on miracles God has done for me in the past. Once while I was waiting to merge onto a gridlocked interstate, I looked in the rear view mirror and saw a car tearing toward me on the shoulder. There was no place for me to go.

My car was moved -- just moved -- sideways just out of the car's path. He tore past me, just missing me.

Another time I was climbing on some steep, jagged rocks to get a photo for a project I was doing. My foot twisted under me and I started falling.

It seemed I fell in slow motion. I landed so gently it amazed me. I had no bruises, no injuries, only three small scrapes on my arm. And my camera was still intact in my hand. In wonder, I realized that God really had sent angels to break my fall and keep me from being injured in a situation that could have killed or seriously hurt me.

There are many, many other instances of what had to be angelic intervention in my life when I was in danger.

So I trust Him to do in the future what He has done in the past for me.
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Re: Hidden in the Day of the Lord's Anger

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:46 pm

Sunny wrote:I have bounced back and forth between pre-wrath and post-trib, but I am leaning more toward post-trib now.


I, too, have bounced back and forth but my bounce is between pre-wrath and "no rapture" which could equate with post-trib in a way, I suppose. Outside of two verses in the NT, I don't find a rapture substantiated throughout the whole Word.
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Postby Sunny on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:31 pm

Well, I am not sure how He is going to do it, but He does say that He will send His angels to gather His elect from the four corners of heaven and earth, so somehow He's going to get us all together! :)

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Also there is the "caught up" verse:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I don't know if that fits with how we picture the Rapture... but I do believe there will be some kind of gathering/catching away of the saints.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:42 pm

Sunny wrote:Well, I am not sure how He is going to do it, but He does say that He will send His angels to gather His elect from the four corners of heaven and earth, so somehow He's going to get us all together! :)

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Gathering presents no problem as far as I can see...

Also there is the "caught up" verse:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I don't know if that fits with how we picture the Rapture... but I do believe there will be some kind of gathering/catching away of the saints.


That's precisely the verse that causes a problem because although it says we will be caught up, it doesn't say we will remain "up" there. It says we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and that we will so be with him forever.

If that's the only verse that is the basis for a rapture (and so far it seems to be), then it doesn't pass the test for proper exegesis which requires that the meaning not only comes from within the text, but it must also confirm the truth throughout the entire Word of God.

I can't find such a truth elsewhere.
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Postby Sunny on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:13 pm

Abiding, I don't have an answer. My perception on so many things has changed since I am looking only to the Word for answers.

I used to think we would go to Heaven immediately, then return to the earth after the millennium when the New Jerusalem comes down to earth.

But I am not sure that is accurate. Now I think we may play a major role in His service here on earth in the millennium.

I find it confusing.

The only thing I know is that I will be in the presence of Jesus, and that's really all that matters. He will probably reveal a lot of the details to us on a need to know basis.
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:16 pm

Hi Abiding,

If that's the only verse that is the basis for a rapture (and so far it seems to be), then it doesn't pass the test for proper exegesis which requires that the meaning not only comes from within the text, but it must also confirm the truth throughout the entire Word of God.


Try these scriptures they confirm the rapture. It is the timing that confuses everyone.

1Co 15:42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.
1Co 15:46 But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man was out of earth, earthy; the second Man was the Lord from Heaven.
1Co 15:48 Such the earthy man, such also the earthy ones. And such the heavenly Man, such also the heavenly ones.
1Co 15:49 And according as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and when this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the word that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?"
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Here in 1Cor. the rapture or changing is associated with the resurrection. The dead shall be raised and we shall be changed. Once we connect the rapture to the resurrection then we can read about the rapture everywhere the resurrection is spoken of. When we broaden our perspective and understand that the resurrection occurs just prior to the rapture then scriptures and post-trib make a lot of sense.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:33 pm

Seeker wrote:Hi Abiding,

If that's the only verse that is the basis for a rapture (and so far it seems to be), then it doesn't pass the test for proper exegesis which requires that the meaning not only comes from within the text, but it must also confirm the truth throughout the entire Word of God.


Try these scriptures they confirm the rapture. It is the timing that confuses everyone.


The timing confuses everyone because that's what they are focusing on. But, imho, they are focusing on an event that has very little, if any, scriptural support outside of one or two verses.

Here in 1Cor. the rapture or changing is associated with the resurrection. The dead shall be raised and we shall be changed.


Raised from the dead doesn't necessarily imply "raised" to heaven. It simply implies the dead come to life or are no longer dead. "Changed" implies just that, but doesn't imply "changed" in a heavenly environment as we think of heaven. We can be changed in the twinkling of an eye and remain right here on earth.

Once we connect the rapture to the resurrection then we can read about the rapture everywhere the resurrection is spoken of.


I do not see scripture mentioning the "place" where the resurrected stay for eternity being heaven. I see the place where the resurrected live for eternity on the new earth in Rev. 21 &22.

When we broaden our perspective and understand that the resurrection occurs just prior to the rapture


You can see that the resurrection occurs just prior to the "changing" but nothing more imo. I'm all for broadening my perspective if there are scriptures that say what you are saying, but I'm opposed to reading something into them that isn't there.

then scriptures and post-trib make a lot of sense.


As I said a few posts up, I'm unsure about post-trib and no rapture. Until I can see scriptural truth for a "catching up" into the heavens where we will abide for eternity, I can't really build a rapture doctrine on 1 verse.

Thanks for your perspective, seeker....can I assume you are post-trib?
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:40 pm

Hi Abiding,

Raised from the dead doesn't necessarily imply "raised" to heaven. It simply implies the dead come to life or are no longer dead. "Changed" implies just that, but doesn't imply "changed" in a heavenly environment as we think of heaven. We can be changed in the twinkling of an eye and remain right here on earth.


1Th4 provides the answer to location.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.


God will bring all those with Him who have fallen asleep through Jesus. That is why it is important to understand the sequence of events. First the resurrection and then the rapture. To bring them with Him means they are in heaven with God.

Rev 6:9 And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given to each one of them. And it was said to them that they should rest yet for a little time, until both their fellow servants and their brothers (those about to be killed as they were ) should have their number made complete.


God brings those described in Rev 6:9 with Him when He comes to rapture us.

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep

Paul states it plainly. "We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall NOT go before those who are asleep". The ones asleep are resurrected before the rapture.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Paul is really hammering the point home. The dead will rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

And then we who are alive and remain. Now when do the dead rise according to Christ?

Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha said to Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Jesus did not correct Martha here and what she said matches what He said. The resurrection takes place on the last day. Remember in Rev 6 we had the souls asking when their blood would be avenged. They were told to wait until the rest were killed as they were killed. That matches the first resurrection shown in Rev 20:4.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Revelation further verifies the last day is when Christ begins His kingdom on earth.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever.

Joh 12:48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My Words has one who judges him; the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Matthew 13 shows the order also in two parables.

Mat 13:24 He put out another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade had sprung up and had produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where have the darnel come from?
Mat 13:28 He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also root up the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.

Mat 13:36 Then sending the crowds away, Jesus went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, Explain to us the parable of the darnel of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said to them, He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;
Mat 13:38 the field is the world; the good seed are the sons of the kingdom; but the darnel are the sons of the evil one.
Mat 13:39 The enemy who sowed them is the Devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 Therefore as the darnel are gathered and burned in the fire, so it shall be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


Let both grow together until the harvest (end of the world). And in the time of the harvest first gather the darnel (tares/sons of the evil one).

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered some of every kind;
Mat 13:48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus said to them, Have you understood all these things? They said to Him, Yes, Lord.


The wicked are removed from among the just. Both grow together until the harvest. In fact in almost every instance where the second coming is spoken of you see both groups pictured together and here in Matt 13 it tells us who goes first.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
Mat 24:39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man.


The ones taken (drown) are the wicked ones. The just (Noah and family) float in a boat amongst the bodies in the flood.

2Th 1:5 For this is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God for which you also suffer,
2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you,
2Th 1:7 and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Th 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day.


"at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven....in flaming fire taking vengence...." The sinners have the vengence of the Lord and He will be glorified in His saints and admired in all those who believe in that Day. See two groups here when Jesus is revealed from Heaven.

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

Why do you suppose all the tribes of earth are mourning when they see the Glorious return of Christ? So the sinners mourn and the elect are gathered. The sinners do well to mourn because He is returning in flaming vengence to them.

Rev 6:12 And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.
Rev 6:16 And they said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
Rev 6:17 for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?


We know from Matt 24 that the cosmic signs are just before Jesus returns to gather the elect. Here we see the parallel account in Rev 6. Same cosmic signs. Notice the kings of the earth trying to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. It goes on also in the OT in Isaiah.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste; and He shall destroy its sinners out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not give light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not reflect its light.
Isa 13:11 And I will visit evil on the world, and their iniquity on the wicked. And I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the pride of tyrants.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than gold; even a man than the fine gold of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of Hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.


The Lord returns to destroy the sinners, it is everywhere. After the sinners and iniquity are removed we are left to inherit the kingdom. Nothing impure will enter the kingdom of God.

Mat 13:41 The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


Anyway post-trib can explain the verses that say "last day" and every other second coming scripture. No other theory can do that. When examining all verses related to the second coming, nothing stands up to post-trib.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:29 pm

Seeker, Amen to that, brother!

In the Old and New Testament the 'last day' (John 6), the end of days (Dan 12), the end of the age (Matt 24), the day of the Lord (Joel 3, Zech 14, 1 Thess 5) are all dicussing the same event, when Jesus returns to earth at the end of the 70th week.

Joel 3 and Zech 14 associate the 'day' with the return and armageddon. John 6, Matt 24, Dan 12 all associate the 'day' with a resurrection.

Paul associates the gathering of the living and the dead together at the resurrection in 1 Cor 1 15- 'But each in his own turn; Christ the first fruits; then when he comes, those who belong to him....' and in 1 Thess 4- the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.'

Jesus returns in the clouds, He comes the way He left (Acts 1), and he gathers the elect (Matt 24, 2 Thess 2, Rev 14, 16) from the earth and the heavens. The dead are brought with Him from heaven and the living are brought up into the clouds.

Jesus then returns to the earth with the saints at armageddon (Zech 14, Joel 3, Rev 19).

There is no evidence of a return to heaven after Jesus gathers the elect when He is in the clouds. Rev 19 describes the preparation for the wedding feast just prior to the return at armageddon, but then no wedding feast is described in heaven, it would appear that it occurs on earth.

The scripture points to the events of Jesus' second coming as all occurring on the last day, the Day of the Lord. Zech 14 and Joel 3 both describe the return at armageddon and also events that occur during the millenium and call this period the DOTL, suggesting that the DOTL continues through the millenium.

Other events prior to the return at armageddon are decribed in Zech and Joel but it is only and armageddon that the term DOTL is used. The DOTL begins at armageddon and Jesus' return, it does not extend for a significant period of time before that.

And Jesus says in Rev 16, as the armies gather for armageddon, 'Behold, I come like a thief'. This would appear to be a reference to Matt 24 which describes the gathering of the elect and Jesus coming like a thief, suggesting that the gathering preceeds and is associated with armageddon.

This is also confirmed in Rev 14 which describes the gathering (of the wheat) by the Son of Man (Jesus) prior to, but in association with, the trampling of the grapes, at armageddon.

As Seeker states 'post-trib' is the only timing of the 'gathering' into the clouds (aka rapture and resurrection), that is consistent with the terms that scripture uses to describe the DOTL (last day, end of days, end of the age). And all these terms describe a resurrection in association with the event-(I will raise on the last day-John 6, Daniel you will rise..at the end of the days- Dan 12, the elect will be gathered from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other- Matt 24).

And Matt 24 connects the 'gathering', the resurrection, to the DOTL, after the time of distress, when the sun and moon are darkened. Joel 3 and Zech 14 connect the DOTL to armageddon, when the sun and moon are darkened. The scripture makes the connection and makes repeated reference to the events that occur on that 'day'.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:21 am

Seeker and 1whowaits

I have no doubt nor confusion about a DOL, a resurrection of the dead, a gathering, Christ's second appearing, GWTJ, etc. Where my doubt lies is in the term "rapture" as indicating the final destination of Christians. If you are using that term to represent a "meeting in the air" of Christians to Jesus, I also have no problem with that. Since Rev. 21 and 22 clearly speak of a new heaven and new earth as our final destination with God dwelling with us, the teaching of a rapture to the heavens as our final destination does not jive with those two chapters. Hence my quandry about the rapture as currently being taught.
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Re: Hidden in the Day of the Lord's Anger

Postby RRiley on Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:17 am

Sunny wrote:Here are some of my favorite scriptures promising that we can be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger:

Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.


Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock


Psa 31:19 [Oh] how great [is] thy goodness, which thou hast laid up for them that fear thee; [which] thou hast wrought for them that trust in thee before the sons of men!
Psa 31:20 Thou shalt hide them in the secret of thy presence from the pride of man: thou shalt keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues.


Psa 143:9 Deliver me, O LORD, from mine enemies: I flee unto thee to hide me.


Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.



And finally, the Tribulation Psalm. No other time in history could all these apply other than the Tribulation.

Psalm 91

1. He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2. I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, [and] from the noisome pestilence.

4. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.

5. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; [nor] for the arrow [that] flieth by day;


6. [Nor] for the pestilence [that] walketh in darkness; [nor] for the destruction [that] wasteth at noonday.

7. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee.
8. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.


9. Because thou hast made the LORD, [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;

10. There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways
.

12. They shall bear thee up in [their] hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I [will be] with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16. With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.


All the above are meant for the nation of Israel.

Rev 12:6 - KJV
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

God will protect the believing part of the nation of Israel.
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Postby Seeker on Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:16 am

Hi Abiding,

We can think of heaven several ways. The air above us is heaven. Outer space where the planets are is heaven. But the heaven we seek is the place where God lives that is heaven to us. If God is to dwell among us wouldn't heaven follow Him? Technically heaven is where God lives. The new heaven just happens to be centered on the new earth in New Jerusalem. We are raptured (meet the Lord in the air) and we are with Him forever after that.

My view of the rapture is that it is after the sinners have been removed. This is to stay consistent with Matt 13 where it plainly states that the tares are removed first. The ones that are left alive are the very last group to board the bus. The sinners are taken first (Matt 13) and then the dead in Christ rise first (1Th4, 1Co15) and then lastly we who remain alive are changed to be forever with the Lord. My view is consistent with scripture. The "change" in a twinkling of an eye is our transformation from mortal to immortal. This only occurs once eternity starts.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


This occurs at the last trumpet which we see in Rev 11.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever.


This is the 7th trumpet so the first six have already occurred before we are raptured. It is important to understand the viewpoint those still living will have. They have witnessed and lived through God’s wrath at the point of the rapture. The 7 seals, vials, and trumpets have all occurred at this point. The earth is decimated and all sinners have just been finished off. Then the dead in Christ rise first and we who remain and alive are changed to meet the Lord in the air upon His arrival. We run out to greet Him as He enters town and follow Him back into town to live happily ever after with our new King.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:43 am

Then the dead in Christ rise first and we who remain and alive are changed to meet the Lord in the air upon His arrival. We run out to greet Him as He enters town and follow Him back into town to live happily ever after with our new King.


Now we are in agreement. We run out to greet him (in the air) and the "new earth" is where we live happily ever after with our King. I'm not sure this rapture is what most believe, however. The theory I'm reading is that we will be translated (which is true) and will reside in heaven (in the sky/air) forever and ever as this world has passed away. In that respect, I disagree with the rapture as it seems to be interpreted as a "catching up" and remaining "up."

Can I assume you are post-trib?
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:51 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Then the dead in Christ rise first and we who remain and alive are changed to meet the Lord in the air upon His arrival. We run out to greet Him as He enters town and follow Him back into town to live happily ever after with our new King.


Now we are in agreement. We run out to greet him (in the air) and the "new earth" is where we live happily ever after with our King. I'm not sure this rapture is what most believe, however. The theory I'm reading is that we will be translated (which is true) and will reside in heaven (in the sky/air) forever and ever as this world has passed away. In that respect, I disagree with the rapture as it seems to be interpreted as a "catching up" and remaining "up."

My view of the rapture is that it is after the sinners have been removed. This is to stay consistent with Matt 13 where it plainly states that the tares are removed first. The ones that are left alive are the very last group to board the bus. The sinners are taken first (Matt 13) and then the dead in Christ rise first (1Th4, 1Co15) and then lastly we who remain alive are changed to be forever with the Lord. My view is consistent with scripture. The "change" in a twinkling of an eye is our transformation from mortal to immortal. This only occurs once eternity starts.


Agreed again!

Because of your stated views, I can assume you are post-trib, correct? And just to clarify, that would mean that you believe we will be here throughout the entire 7 years of the tribulation including the 3 1/2 of God's wrath?
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:20 am

Yes I do believe that the bible teaches that we will be here until the very end. I think you are correct that many don't understand what heaven will be like. We don't go to heaven for a big family reunion we go to heaven to serve the Lord and worship Him. Our focus will be God not ourselves. The wonders He has prepared for us can't even be imagined. Just read the description of New Jerusalem for starters, what a truely magnificantly beautiful city it will be.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God. And its light was like a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 And it had a great and high wall, with twelve gates. And on the gates were twelve angels, and having names inscribed, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel:
Rev 21:13 From the east three gates, from the north three gates, from the south three gates, and from the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he who talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city and its gates and its wall.
Rev 21:16 And the city lies four-square, and the length is as large as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand stadia. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.
Rev 21:18 And the foundation of its wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city had been adorned with every precious stone. The first foundation, jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
Rev 21:20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, hyacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls. Respectively, each one of the gates was one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, as transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty is its temple, even the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev 21:25 And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of Water of Life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of its street, and of the river, from here and from there, was the Tree of Life, which bore twelve fruits, each yielding its fruit according to one month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And every curse will no longer be; but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.
Rev 22:4 And they will see His face, and His name will be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there will be no night there. And they need no lamp, or light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light. And they will reign forever and ever.
Rev 22:6 And he said to me, These sayings are faithful and true. And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show to His servants the things which must shortly be done.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he who keeps the Words of the prophecy of this Book.


After this I have no clue but I am sure there will be things we can't even imagine.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:53 am

Seeker wrote:Yes I do believe that the bible teaches that we will be here until the very end. I think you are correct that many don't understand what heaven will be like.


Thanks, Seeker for clarifying your position.

We don't go to heaven for a big family reunion


I do think a family reunion with both friends and family will be a great part of the joy of our new earth. When Adam was formed from the dust of a perfect earth, God walked with him there. And yet God said it was not good for him to be alone. Companionship, interaction, and human relationship between God's people seems to His ordained plan. There will be no inequality, no prejudice, no stress, no jealousy, or any of the conflicts we experience in this sinful domain.

Jesus said we should first love the Lord our God and second love our neighbor as ourselves. He didn't see a conflict between those two providing He is our priority.

He also mentioned dwelling places that He has prepared for us in John 14:2. That implies (to me anyway) that our life will be very much an extension of the life we know apart from the evil that has infested this one.

Just as we saw animals in the garden, and God's preservation of them from the Flood, I believe they will also be present in the restored, new earth.

All these things will bring glory to the Lord and satisfy His desire to fellowship with His people.

we go to heaven to serve the Lord and worship Him. Our focus will be God not ourselves. The wonders He has prepared for us can't even be imagined.


You are correct in saying our focus will not be on ourselves but we will be fulfilling the mandate of the scriptures to love one another. It will be easy with the absence of sin.
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:09 am

Hi Abiding,

There are numerous versions of post-trib so I usually will just say that I believe we will be here until the "last day" just as Jesus teaches. Or the very end. The term post-trib is almost not specific enough if that makes sense. So I keep it simple...last day...lol.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Hidden in the Day of the Lord's Anger

Postby AmericanBooGirl on Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:14 pm

From what I can tell, quite a few people feel that Daniel's 70th week
is the tribulation and that the Great Tribulation is God's wrath, but it really isn't God's wrath,
it is satan's wrath. Yes, God is already putting forth warnings, so that people will humble
themselves before him and repent, and the birth pangs will keep on getting more intense, but that's what
it is, warnings, not his wrath. Also, from what I can tell, only the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week is
considered the tribulation period.

I believe the spirit of the antichrist is already here, paving the way to usher in the antichrist.
And from what I've been told by a reputable person, many in Israel who still believe in their God, are
saying that there will be a war in their area by sometime this summer,(that Psalms 83 is at their door)
and that a peace treaty will be in place by August/September.

That would most likely be the peace treaty (covenant), at least in mho, that begins Daniel's 70th week,
I'm watching to see if the temple there will be rebuilt around that period of time.

Anyway, halfway through Daniel's 70th week, which will be the final 3 1/2 years, and the Great
Tribulation, the antichrist will set himself up to be like Christ and be worshipped at the temple. After
that he will break the covenant, and enforce the mark of the beast, while reeking havoc on the earth.
You see, it is satan's wrath, not God's wrath. God leaves the windows of heaven open for people
to humble themselves and repent until the end of the Great Tribulation, and then he pours his wrath
out onto those that absolutely won't repent, no matter what.

It saddens me that people think that God would pour his wrath out onto everyone on earth, even
the saints. The saints will, from what I have read and learned, be taken in the second coming before
then. If that isn't the case, which I believe it to be, God will provide protection for the elect during
this time. The saints aren't appointed to God's wrath.

No matter what God does, how many warnings he gives, or how many opportunities he extends to mankind
to humble themselves before him, many will only curse him and turn away from him, up until the end, and
then that's when God closes the doors of Heaven, and his wrath will soon follow. His wrath is for the people
who would never in a million years turn to him and repent.

God is a God of mercy and forgiveness, and doesn't want anyone to perish. I have to say, he has more
patience then I ever could....if it were me that had all of that to deal with, I'd be way less patient, and
less forgiving.
Blessings, >AmericanBooGirl< =)
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