What is post-Trib?

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What is post-Trib?

Postby Peacebloom on Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:49 pm

Great Site

If you'd like to see the main ideas behind post-trib and the history behind it, this site is a great resource.

Much love,
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Postby BobRyan on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:33 am

Post Trib Rapture.

1. We know that there is a post-trib premillennial second coming because we see it in Matt 24 "AFTER the Tribulation of those days...He will gather His Elect" and we see in Rev 20 "THIS is the FIRST resurrection" taking place pre-millennial at the Rev 19-Rev20 2nd coming event.

Impossible to miss that if this 1Thess 4 resurrection is the "FIRST" resurrection then the "rapture resurrection" given in 1Thess 4 must be THE FIRST. Can't be the 2nd one which comes 1000 years later. So that makes it post-trib pre-mill.

End of story.

2. But that gets us to the RAPTURE aspect of this post-trib Rapture - resurrection - 2nd coming view.

Many have assumed that this it NOT really a rapture to the "place He has prepared for US" according to John 14:1-3 but rather it is a "high bounce" and every body just stays here.

That is where I differ.

The Post-Trib view gets the same "Jesus Raptures the church to heaven" as all the pretrib views which means that the Post-trib option is the BEST of all scenarios because it combines the Bible support of all views.

in Christ,

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Postby GodsStudent on Thu May 01, 2008 9:57 pm

BobRyan wrote:Post Trib Rapture.

Many have assumed that this it NOT really a rapture to the "place He has prepared for US" according to John 14:1-3 but rather it is a "high bounce" and every body just stays here.

That is where I differ.

The Post-Trib view gets the same "Jesus Raptures the church to heaven" as all the pretrib views which means that the Post-trib option is the BEST of all scenarios because it combines the Bible support of all views.

in Christ,

Bob


Hi Bob. When you say the Post Trib view gets the same "Jesus Raptures the church to heaven".....when does this happen, exactly? I am trying very hard to understand the post trib view and I take into account, very seriously, the fact that the church immediately following the Apostles (who were taught directly of Jesus) had a uniform understanding of a post trib theology.

I am trying to learn what the post tribbers are saying.
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Postby CaryC on Sun May 04, 2008 8:48 am

Hey GodsStudent,

Bob can correct if I have it wrong, but:

I think he means that those who are post-trib also believe in the same type of Rapture scenario as the pre-trib but only at a different time, at or near the end (post/after) of the tribulation.

I will say this, that this forum is not for debating pre or post trib views. That can be done in the Prophecy Debate Forum. This Forum is for sharing information and answering questions, like yours. It's sort of a safe haven for post-tribbers, just as the Pre-Trib Forum is for pre-tribbers.

I would also point out that all the writings that I have looked at up until the mid 1800's are all post trib. Someone, it may be Rick Joyner, says that the writings of some well known Syrian guy ( Who's name I can't think of either) from like the first century, promotes a pre-trib view, that statement is wrong. If you'll just read this Syrian guys stuff without a pre-trib assumption, it's all post-trib.

I am trying to learn what the post tribbers are saying.


Do you have a specific question about what we are saying?
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Postby Seeker on Sun May 04, 2008 9:48 am

Hi GodsStudent,

When one takes into account “all” the different rapture scriptures available the overwhelming evidence points to post-trib. It seems just about everyone has their own spin on how “post” but in general sometime after the tribulation of those days has ended. Jesus talks about those days in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


Jesus talks about the worse tribulation that there will ever be or has ever been. So this tribulation will be the worst thing ever seen in Israel. And more importantly there will never be any greater tribulation in Israel. Jesus then warns them not to believe anyone saying that He is here at that time. This tells us that Jesus will not return until after this tribulation in Matt 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after that tribulation we see the cosmic signs.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then the sign of Jesus in heaven causing all tribes of the earth to mourn. Why would they mourn at such a glorious event? They know their destruction occurs upon His arrival.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Here’s the same cosmic signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 that occur immediately after the tribulation is over.

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


They try to hide from the Lamb for the great day of His wrath has arrived. Jesus was clear and so is the Old Testament concerning the timing. Immediately after the tribulation the sun/moon/stars are darkened and the day of His wrath arrives.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


This tells us when the tribulation starts. They are warned that when they see the AOD spoken of by Daniel the prophet, they are to flee for then shall be great tribulation….Daniel 9 tells us when the AOD is so we can pinpoint the beginning of the trib.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel also tells us how long the AC has power to war with the saints.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


The AC has power over the saints to make war for 3 ½ years. Daniel 9 tells us that the AOD occurs in the middle of the last 7 years. We know Jesus does not return until after the cosmic signs which follow immediately after this 3 ½ year tribulation. This matches the information we are given in Rev 13 also.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Here the AC has 42 months which is 3 ½ years. Scripture confirms scripture. There are many more scriptures that point toward post-trib, here are some of them:

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


Jesus returns at the end of the last 7 years to remove sinners and all things that offend. God lets both the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest. At the harvest the angels “first” gather the tares. In the net parable the “wicked” are removed from among the just. Both groups there at the time the wicked are removed. When we examine everything written concerning the second arrival of Jesus we see that post-trib is the only reasonable explanation that explains all of the different accounts. Christians still have to be here for wicked to be removed from among them. The bible teaches post-trib that is why the first century Christians believed in post-trib. We will be here until the end of the last 7 years. Most people don’t like the thought of going through everything written for the last 7 years. I think Jesus answers that clearly enough for me with this verse.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Mr Dan on Sun May 04, 2008 9:56 am

Post trib believes that the rapture of the church will occur after the tribulation is cut short by the return of Jesus coming on clouds with the armies of heaven but before the wrath of God is poured out on the nations. Personally I put this around the battle at Meggido, there seems to be an intercession period where Jesus frees the captives, those who have fled the beast,the blood soaked journey to Basra, and the ressurection of the two witnessess.

When the Lord stands on mount Zion in Rev 14 there are some things that are apparent from reading the text.Followers of Christ are still on the earth, The Angel is still preaching the gospel to the whole world, Babylon has fallen, the beast his Government and the mark still exist. Christ has gathered those who are his followers to him and is set to judge the nations and the angels are prepared to pur out the wrath of God and the reap the wicked from the earth.
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Postby perigrini on Sun May 04, 2008 11:15 am

CaryC wrote:I would also point out that all the writings that I have looked at up until the mid 1800's are all post trib. Someone, it may be Rick Joyner, says that the writings of some well known Syrian guy ( Who's name I can't think of either) from like the first century, promotes a pre-trib view, that statement is wrong. If you'll just read this Syrian guys stuff without a pre-trib assumption, it's all post-trib.

I believe you may be referring to pseudo Ephriam...which actually is a forgery trying to pass itself off by someone else. It's from several hundred years later as I recall...and you're right, it doesn't support pretrib when one actually read the document instead of taking one sentence out of context.


Blessings,

perigrini
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Postby CaryC on Sun May 04, 2008 1:25 pm

Hey,

Thanks Peri.

One of the things that my wife and I looked at is....:

Tribulation Saints. Without a post-trib. rapture/resurrection these people are totally left out, and will continually, and eternally, abide in the earth. There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. One before the 1000 year reign and one after, for the lost.
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Postby SueAnn on Sun May 04, 2008 2:22 pm

Is this the appropriate place for me to ask someone to explain the difference between Post-trib and Pre-wrath? I do not see a difference, yet I am sure there must be otherwise why would they have separate forums?

Please keep your answer simple. Pretend you are explaining to a 6 year old. I confuse easily.
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Postby Seeker on Sun May 04, 2008 2:53 pm

Hi SueAnn,

Pre-wrath (Christians raptured after the tribulation but before the wrath of God begins)
Post-trib (Christians raptured after the tribulation and after the wrath of God begins)

Pre-wrath believes Christians are with Jesus during the wrath of God. Post-tribbers for the most part believe that Christians will be on earth during the wrath but protected from it like the days of Noah and Lot.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby perigrini on Sun May 04, 2008 4:10 pm

CaryC wrote:Hey,

Thanks Peri.

One of the things that my wife and I looked at is....:

Tribulation Saints. Without a post-trib. rapture/resurrection these people are totally left out, and will continually, and eternally, abide in the earth. There is one resurrection for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. One before the 1000 year reign and one after, for the lost.

The term "tribulation saints" it typically a pretrib terminology...do you have a specific scriptural reference to those you are referring to?


Blessings,

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Postby CaryC on Sun May 04, 2008 6:01 pm

Hey Peri,

Sorry didn't mean to be confusing. I used the term "Tribulation Saints" specifically for someone coming over from the pre-trib. view. So they would know who I was referring too. I got the impression that GodsStudent was either new to the post-trib. view or was looking at it as being a possibility, in either case it appeared his/her background was pre-trib. and I thought using a pre-trib term might be more clarifying to them.

From a pre-trib. view the rapture would happen at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, then a group of people would be saved during the tribulation, Christ would return set up His 1000 year reign, then at the end of the 1000 years there would be another resurrection, of the lost. No where in that scenario, the pre-trib view, is there a rapture/resurrection for those saved during the tribulation. And I might add that there is no such thing recorded anywhere in the Bible, by that I mean a separate rapture/resurrection for those believers who missed the first one. This is the idea/fact that got Sherree and I to thinking that the pre-trib view was wrong. With others it was other things, but this is what it was for us.

However from a post-trib view the rapture which happens at the end of the tribulation would include all believers. This being the view that I hold too, there is no separate class of believers termed Tribulation Saints.

I also wanted to use that term so as to not get off track on to who all is the church. Which I am sure would need to be discussed, eventually.

Anyway I hope that clarified things, but it could of muddied it up some more. Let me know if it did, and I'll try again.
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Postby SueAnn on Sun May 04, 2008 7:16 pm

Seeker wrote:Hi SueAnn,

Pre-wrath (Christians raptured after the tribulation but before the wrath of God begins)
Post-trib (Christians raptured after the tribulation and after the wrath of God begins)

Pre-wrath believes Christians are with Jesus during the wrath of God. Post-tribbers for the most part believe that Christians will be on earth during the wrath but protected from it like the days of Noah and Lot.

Peace,
Seeker


Seeker,
You sweetheart, sugar-faced, huggy-bear! That was simple enough, even for me!!!! Thank you, with chocolate syrup, nuts, whipped cream and a cherry on top!!

I FINALLY understand!!!

Heavenly Father, Please Bless seeker on my behalf. In Jesus' name, Amen.
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Postby Seeker on Mon May 05, 2008 9:54 am

Your welcome SueAnn, thank you for your blessing request I need many...lol...Don't need the sweets though...lol.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby SueAnn on Mon May 05, 2008 12:01 pm

Seeker wrote:Your welcome SueAnn, thank you for your blessing request I need many...lol...Don't need the sweets though...lol.

Peace,
Seeker


Seeker, Don't worry. Virtual desserts are all calorie-free. :wink:
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Postby GodsStudent on Mon May 05, 2008 3:41 pm

Thank you to everyone who responded in this thread. First, I switched from pre trib (just isn't scriptural) to pre wrath, which "fit for a while" and then as I continue to study the Word, some stuff just might not "fit" with this view, either. So....as any God's Student would do, I embarked on furthering my understanding even further. As I see it, you cannot be sure of any view until you have thoroughly learned about all of them.

Matt. 13 is quite stirring, Seeker. WOW. And this is why I think I need to ask these questions.

My goal here is to learn from you all, and I am so thankful to each who has taken the time to show me things! I wanted to know scripturally what supports this "view" and why.
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Postby GodsStudent on Mon May 05, 2008 4:11 pm

Seeker wrote:Hi GodsStudent,

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Yes, this is also compelling. Its hard to miss the words LAST DAY from the scriptures. scriptures which call for the dead in Christ to be raised first (which all rapture views agree are calling for a rapture) specifically say the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1 Thes 4: 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.[/color]

Jesus returns at the end of the last 7 years to remove sinners and all things that offend. God lets both the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest. At the harvest the angels “first” gather the tares. In the net parable the “wicked” are removed from among the just. Both groups there at the time the wicked are removed. When we examine everything written concerning the second arrival of Jesus we see that post-trib is the only reasonable explanation that explains all of the different accounts. Christians still have to be here for wicked to be removed from among them. The bible teaches post-trib that is why the first century Christians believed in post-trib. We will be here until the end of the last 7 years. Most people don’t like the thought of going through everything written for the last 7 years. I think Jesus answers that clearly enough for me with this verse.

Well, I would have to say the fog as to the above two verses seems to be lifting. I dont see how any other "view" could "explain" the above two parables. hmmm......


Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Specifically in the above verse, the link provided in the first post on this thread talks about Revelation 1-3 and Jesus saying "him who overcometh or overcomes"....overcome gets a different light when its in the form of choosing death in this life in order to choose Christ. So, the view one has does "sort of" matter. Its important to understand what is coming.
Peace,
Seeker


I really appreciate your post and it brought some compelling things to light. This kind of "talk" is going to be ever important to more and more as their hopes of the easier and softer way gets dashed in favor of the truth and reality. Please keep the lessons coming to anyone who can add to what has already been posted here.

One other thing I want a post tribbers view on:

Jesus says in His Father's house are many mansions......where and what does this play into things?[/b]
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Postby Lightseeker on Tue May 06, 2008 12:17 am

Thank you for your concise explanation of the difference between post-trib and pre-wrath, Seeker!
Blessings...
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Postby CaryC on Wed May 07, 2008 6:32 am

Hey,

GodsStudent: First, I would suggest looking at the first post and checking out the link, it really is good for post trib. one of the best actually. Secondly, with your question about the "many mansions", I'm not sure I understand the question. Although, I don't think Jesus has been been going around with a carpenter's nail apron on, for the last 2000 years, building houses. As many preachers put forth, and abuse these verses.
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Postby Seeker on Wed May 07, 2008 10:00 am

Seeker, Don't worry. Virtual desserts are all calorie-free.


Cool that works...lol

Here is another example that Jesus gives. Most people mis-interpret these verses but if we read it carefully we can discern its meaning.

No problem Lightseeker glad I could help!


Matthew 24

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


"But as the days of Noah were so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

Let's think about the days of Noah. He was warning everyone of the flood while he built the ark. I bet they laughed at him, until that is the day he entered the ark. They were eating and drinking...live was as normal. No signs of pending catastrophe.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

They knew NOT until the flood came and TOOK THEM ALL AWAY. Not screaming here emphasising that the ones who were taken away were sinners. They all died in the flood, none but Noah and his family survived. God took the evil away from among the just. Jesus tells us His second coming will be as the days of Noah. In the days of Noah the sinners were taken away and so will the sinners be taken away in the second coming.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby GodsStudent on Wed May 07, 2008 3:38 pm

CaryC wrote:Hey,

GodsStudent: First, I would suggest looking at the first post and checking out the link, it really is good for post trib. one of the best actually. Secondly, with your question about the "many mansions", I'm not sure I understand the question. Although, I don't think Jesus has been been going around with a carpenter's nail apron on, for the last 2000 years, building houses. As many preachers put forth, and abuse these verses.


John 14: 1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

I was asking what the post tribbers think Jesus is saying here. If the rapture is nothing more than a "bounce" on the last day, why would we need to reside in these many mansions?

Once again, these are sincere questions that I am asking here. I want the answer and do not intend to "rebut" but rather understand. I appreciate all of the efforts you guys are putting into helping me understand this view and I am afraid that the comfort I once knew first as a pre tribber and then as a pre wrather has been pulled out from under me. I am seriously in a state of limbo with this subject right now and in persuit of the truth. I really appreciate you guys working with me.

I am still in shock over the fact that the articles in the first link on this thread (yes, I have been reading from that site) say that the apostles and the early churches were all uniformly post trib. These were the people Jesus taught directly. I wish I had the attention span, the knowledge and the time to study this all non stop until I could settle it in my mind, but then I also see in years past (only about two since God pulled me out of the apostate church I was in and put a passion in my heart for the truth), that God has very purposefully given me the truth doses at a time and I can see that He has never abandoned me in this process, but has had me in "school" non stop. I am very grateful and not scared, but still very anxious to learn!
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Postby CaryC on Thu May 08, 2008 8:12 am

Hey GodsStudent,

I tried to post last night, but as I was typing it out, company arrived, and had to sign off.

I did want to commend you on your search and questions. If you will remain open minded and sincere, God will show you all you want to know. And he gave it to us, the same way He is giving it to you. Another thing I would say is, that even though you or others may view us post-tribbers as a block or group who believe a certain way, that doesn't mean we are in lock step on all the verses. So others may have a different view on John 14, and that's OK too.

Concerning John 14:

If you look at these verses from a pre-trib view, then you must consider that Jesus has been, some say 2000 years, building these mansions to be occupied for a 7 year period, and then they will be vacated for eternity. Again from a pre-trib view we will leave those mansions and return to earth with Christ to rule and reign with Him on earth, for 1000 years and then a new heaven and earth are created. Granted Jesus could do that, but I think the question is would He.

Personally I see this as a duel prophecy, one near and one far, as many OT prophecies are. The near prophecy to me, concerns our place in the body of Christ. Christ being the chief corner stone, and we as lively stones are built up etc... and He appointed some as prophets, some apostles etc..... I think this prophecy points more to the "where I am", where is He? At least, in the center of God's will. "There you may be also". Some may think that is "spiritualizing" those verses and dismiss this view, and that's OK.

The second one, the far fulfillment, may be seen/viewed as a literal fulfillment. From a post-trib view after the "bounce" would be, that we would dwell with Him, where He is. Namely for His part, on His throne in the Temple (during the 1000 years). We would dwell with Him there. If you will notice the Millininum (sp ?) Temple has "chambers" surrounding it. That may be where we dwell, but that's just a guess.

I would also point out the the word "mansion" in Strong's is G3438 and is defined as: From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion. I think it is implied that we stay with Him, wherever He is.

I also think it is interesting that Jesus says "...if it were not so I would of told you so." No where in the OT is "mansions" found, so it would be weird if Jesus jumped one day and said, "Well, boys there ain't no mansions in heaven!" The boys could of thought well OK then. I brought that out to point out that there is probably more here than meets the eye.

I hope that helps and again that is just my view of it.
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Postby Seeker on Thu May 08, 2008 4:42 pm

Hi GodsStudent,

Like Cary said we all have our own little twists it seems. Mine is probably a bit unusual since I use a very strict literal fulfillment method. I simply believe that every word in the bible means exactly what it means, sort of...lol. In most cases symbols are explained when they are used throughout the bible. So my explanation for Dan 9:26-27 is quite simple and is exactly what the text says. I want to explain this to you before I go into John 14. The prince that shall arrive in the future in Dan 9:26 is called "he" in Dan 9:27.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


I take the meaning to be exactly what it says. A future prince and his people will destroy the sanctuary and remove the sacrifice in the middle of the last 7 years. The "prince" in 9:26 is the "he" of 9:27. The grammer shows no indication that a change in persons has occured. The natural reading of these verses say the prince and he are one and the same not two people split over 1000's of years.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus says He is going off somewhere to prepare a place for His disciples. And if He goes to prepare a place then He will return and receive them unto Himself. So that where He is they may also be. My particular spin has the mansion arriving here to earth for us.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


I think we are going to be living or travelling to New Jerusalem after it comes down from heaven. Jesus has been preparing His bride (New Jerusalem). We get to live in that city I think. So I liken the mansions to this new city coming down to the new earth. There will be no more death. So this is after the second death (Rev 20:14), which is after the 1000 years has ended. I think Ezekiel 40-45 describes the temple of New Jerusalem. That's my take on it.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: What is post-Trib?

Postby jgilberAZ on Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:02 pm

One thing I don't understand about post-trib ...

While the view clearly sees and understands the signs that follow the tribulation and precede the Day of the Lord, what does it do with the fact that those signs occur at the sixth seal? Prewrath sees the rapture happening after the sixth seal due to the signs of the Day of the Lord and the multitude appearing in heaven in the next chapter.

How does posttrib reconcile that?


- Jeff
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The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: What is post-Trib?

Postby oldbeans316 on Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:09 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:One thing I don't understand about post-trib ...

While the view clearly sees and understands the signs that follow the tribulation and precede the Day of the Lord, what does it do with the fact that those signs occur at the sixth seal? Prewrath sees the rapture happening after the sixth seal due to the signs of the Day of the Lord and the multitude appearing in heaven in the next chapter.

How does posttrib reconcile that?


- Jeff


I am a postie.

Basically from what I understand, prewrath sees the seals, trumpets and bowls as happening consecutively. In other words, the seven seals occur, then the 7 trumpets, then the bowls.

Whereas post-tribbers (like me) see the seals, trumpets and bowls overlapping (like the overlapping of prophecy in Daniel).

I see the seven seals give an overview of the entire tribulation, with Jesus' coming at the 6th seal, along with a glimpse at the beginning of the Millennium in chapter 7. Then the seven trumpets recaps part of the 7-year tribulation, probably the lats 3.5 years. The seven bowls give a recapping of the last days of the tribulation, the second coming, the Millennium, and the eternal state.

The reason I am a posttriber is because of Jesus' words... Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:28-31)

Jesus explicitely says that the gathering togethering and His return happens after the Tribulation of those days.

Actually, I might start up a thread about the seven seals, trumpets and bowls.
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Re: What is post-Trib?

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:29 pm

Hi jgilberAZ,

One thing I don't understand about post-trib ...

While the view clearly sees and understands the signs that follow the tribulation and precede the Day of the Lord, what does it do with the fact that those signs occur at the sixth seal? Prewrath sees the rapture happening after the sixth seal due to the signs of the Day of the Lord and the multitude appearing in heaven in the next chapter.

How does posttrib reconcile that?


As we discussed earlier in this thread post-trib has many varied paths but we tend to all agree we are here until the very end. We will witness the Wrath of God being poured out upon the earth and men. Just as Noah, Lot, and Israel in Egypt; we will be protected by the Lord while death rains down among us. The triple 7's (seals, trumpets, bowls) are very confusing to most of us. They were to me for a long time until I came to the simple conclusion that they all end about the same time. Here let me show you.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


First of all let me briefly talk about the cosmic signs. They occur in many places in both the OT and NT. They are always associated with God dispencing His wrath on earth. We know that the wrath is at the very end in general. We can use the cosmic signs to connect the OT and NT accounts together. They are the common thread between the two. In Rev 6 above they are trying to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. This tells us that the cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars darkened 6:12-14) occur at the time the Lamb is dispencing His wrath upon men. Now from Matthew 13 we know that evil is removed first.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


In Rev 6 at the 6th seal we see Jesus, the Lamb, pouring out His wrath on the tares. This means we are still here at this point because Matt 13 states that the "wicked are severed from among the just"....Honestly it doesn't get any clearer than that anywhere in the bible. This is where pre-wrath falls just as pre-trib does. They both have us leaving before the tares which is contrary to Matthew 13 and many other scriptures.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"After this" I beheld....So really we have the same thing Matthew 13 says here. First in Rev 6 the tares are receiving the wrath of the Lamb and then in Rev 7 we see the resurrected saints. So the 6th seal is when Jesus destroys evil and the 7th is when we are raptured. But how can that be when we have trumpets and bowls yet to deal with? This is why it appears that pre-wrath would be correct but it really isn't because the 7th trumpet also occurs at the very end.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


The mystery of God will be finished at the 7th trumpet....that there should be time no longer.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Jesus begins to reign on earth at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


At the 7th bowl/vial we have God's wrath as in Rev 6. So really they all end at the same point in time. When Jesus returns, destroys sinners, raptures us, and begins to reign on earth during the millennium. Every island fled away and the mountains were not found any more. He gives them the fierceness of His wrath. If these all end at the same time then that solves your question. I came to the conclusion that they all do end at the same time. Not sure if they are one for one two for two but certainly the 7th of each end at the same point in time.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Here are the cosmic signs again. Let's look at the sequence of events. Sun darkened and then shall the sign of the Son of man, then all the tribes of earth mourn, and they shall see Jesus....Why would all the tribes of earth be mourning when they see Jesus arriving? They mourn before the elect are gathered. The mourners are the tares once again both groups together when Jesus arrives.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Here Isaiah speaks of the cosmic signs and notice that he associates it with the "day of the Lord". Also take note that He will destroy the sinners out of the land on that day. So when we see these cosmic signs we can know the timeframe that the surrounding scripture is referencing. This directly links the OT "day of the Lord" to the return of Jesus. Once we see this then the "big" picture starts shining through. All the prophets wrote about the same event; the return of Jesus. We can take all the information provided in all the different accounts and get a treasure of information about the last 7 years. This all connects with Joel as well.

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


If you can see what I am saying then you will be taken back at first and grin later when it sinks in that every prophet we read is basically telling the same story. It is wonderful actually. It ties the whole bible together once we see it. Don't take my word for it search the prophets and you will see the same basic story of God returning to save Israel from certain destruction and then Israel returning to Him forever after. It all revolves around that tiny nation we know as Israel. I apologize for the side track but once I get going on this it is hard not to try to show as many examples as possible. We can add up all the details from these different prophets to magnify our understanding of this common story throughout the bible. It seems clear though to me that the 7th seal,trumpet, and bowl all occur at the same time.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re:

Postby Bob the Quiet on Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:41 am

GodsStudent wrote:
BobRyan wrote:Post Trib Rapture.

Many have assumed that this it NOT really a rapture to the "place He has prepared for US" according to John 14:1-3 but rather it is a "high bounce" and every body just stays here.

That is where I differ.

The Post-Trib view gets the same "Jesus Raptures the church to heaven" as all the pretrib views which means that the Post-trib option is the BEST of all scenarios because it combines the Bible support of all views.

in Christ,

Bob


Hi Bob. When you say the Post Trib view gets the same "Jesus Raptures the church to heaven".....when does this happen, exactly? I am trying very hard to understand the post trib view and I take into account, very seriously, the fact that the church immediately following the Apostles (who were taught directly of Jesus) had a uniform understanding of a post trib theology.

I am trying to learn what the post tribbers are saying.


The place He has prepared for us is the very 'dirt beneath our feet'. Jesus is coming HERE after Armageddon, after all. And also since Jesus says that we will be with Him, it is illogical for the place prepared for us to be in Heaven. No, the place is Earth which God in His infinite wisdom created for Himself and for us.

Matthew 24
29"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that Jesus is already on his way down when He sends His angels out to gather us up. Why would the angels take us up to Heaven if Jesus is already on His way down?

2 Thess 2
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, (emphasize mine)

Clearly we are going to be gathered to Him...so again, why would we be gathered up in Heaven if Jesus Himself has told us that He will already be descending through the clouds when He gathers us to Himself?
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Re: Re:

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:39 pm

Bob the Quiet wrote:The place He has prepared for us is the very 'dirt beneath our feet'. Jesus is coming HERE after Armageddon, after all. And also since Jesus says that we will be with Him, it is illogical for the place prepared for us to be in Heaven. No, the place is Earth which God in His infinite wisdom created for Himself and for us.


I agree with this. The new heaven and new earth of Rev. 21 is the restoration of the cursed earth of Genesis and the inheritance of the saints.
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Re: What is post-Trib?

Postby Bob the Quiet on Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:07 am

Peacebloom wrote:Great Site

If you'd like to see the main ideas behind post-trib and the history behind it, this site is a great resource.

Much love,
Peacebloom


Tim Warner has moved the "Last Trumpet" site to Answers in Revelation
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