If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

No opposing arguments allowed

Postby Sherree on Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:49 pm

Hi, cleveland. I just wanted to drop a line and tell you that I appreciate the thread. I'm in total support of what you're doing. I've been reading this thread from the beginning.

Sue-M wrote:25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. [a]


Sue-M, I just want you to know that out of all the scriptures posted here, this one really stood out to me! I don't know how I have been missing it! I plan on putting it in my list of scriptures supporting a post-trib rapture!

Hugs to you and cleveland!
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Postby Sue-M on Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:53 pm

Hoshianna, if you believe in a rapture at any point before the very end of the Trib., then my heart breaks for you. But, in no way does this exclude you as my friend.

Hoshianna, just imagine for one second that (we are in the future) and you realize that we are in the Tribulation. Maybe it's during the time when the AC is waging war against the saints and we have to be hiding in order to remain alive. What will you think? Will this effect your faith? Suppose that right before you go into hiding, you hear on the news that millions have just disappeared. You wonder why God forgot you. What will this do to your faith?

You don't have to answer me. Just ask yourself.

Are you ready to face anything?
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby purple7 on Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:00 pm

Well, because God called a solemn assembly to himself, to his very presence, before

That doesn't really prove anything. So your saying because and angel blows the trumpets in Revelation that it isn't the Trumpet of God? You can't seperate God from His Word. If he tells the angel to blow the Trumpet it is the trumpet of God. It certainly isn't Isreal's trumpet or anyone elses trumpet.
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Re: the last trump

Postby Sue-M on Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:04 pm

hoshianna wrote:Those are all very nice long posts, I'm sure.

The "last trump" of 1 cor 15:52 is wrongly interpreted to be the "seventh" of rev 10:7;11:15. This is just not the case.

Let's defer to the author of 1 cor, Paul, for what he meant by the "last trump" of 1 cor 15:52.
1Th 4:16 RV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

It's the trump of God; its not just one of the seven trumpets. You might pointlessly argue why did he say "last?" Well, because God called a solemn assembly to himself, to his very presence, before. That is what the pretrib rapture is, Jesus Christ calling the saints to himself, to his very presence, for a solemn assembly; to stand before the Son of man.
Here are the passages about the previous time the trump of God was used.
Heb 12:18-21 RV For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, (19) and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them: (20) for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; (21) and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Exo 19:16 RV And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a trumpet exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.
But we agree on one point, there will be no secret rapture. They will lie about it but it can not be a secret.

sue-m, if what crmann posted made him your bestfriend, I hope this doesn't make me your archenemy. I see everyone here as siblings just having a good hearty discussion about what time the parent said he'll pick us up.

peace & God bless


Hoshianna, what happens on the earth during the 7th Trumpet? The 7th is the last Trumpet.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby Sue-M on Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:09 pm

Sherree, I was actually not going to post that one because it seemed kind of "weak" to me. But, I'm glad that it stood out for you. Good, it was meant for me to post it.

I like John 17:15,

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

I just found this one tonight. I forgot about it. This one (in my opinion) is a big proof. Jesus prayed that we will not be taken from the earth, but, be protected. So Cool!!!
Luke 21:28

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Postby CaryC on Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:02 am

Hey,

Uumm that is a good one. 'Reckon, the Lord God and Father will answer the Sons request? If not His, than who's?
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Postby crmann on Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:19 am

Those are all very nice long posts, I'm sure.

The "last trump" of 1 cor 15:52 is wrongly interpreted to be the "seventh" of rev 10:7;11:15. This is just not the case.

Let's defer to the author of 1 cor, Paul, for what he meant by the "last trump" of 1 cor 15:52.
Quote:
1Th 4:16 RV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

It's the trump of God; its not just one of the seven trumpets. You might pointlessly argue why did he say "last?" Well, because God called a solemn assembly to himself, to his very presence, before. That is what the pretrib rapture is, Jesus Christ calling the saints to himself, to his very presence, for a solemn assembly; to stand before the Son of man.
Here are the passages about the previous time the trump of God was used.
Quote:
Heb 12:18-21 RV For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, (19) and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them: (20) for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; (21) and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Quote:
Exo 19:16 RV And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a trumpet exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.
But we agree on one point, there will be no secret rapture. They will lie about it but it can not be a secret.

sue-m, if what crmann posted made him your bestfriend, I hope this doesn't make me your archenemy. I see everyone here as siblings just having a good hearty discussion about what time the parent said he'll pick us up.

peace & God bless


My dear Hoshianna,

Please notice the title of this thread. It says, "If you are not Pre Trib, help me out here.

This is a Bible study of the second coming of Christ...It is not a thread to debate on...


I see everyone here as siblings just having a good hearty discussion about what time the parent said he'll pick us up.


Hoshianna, if you are pre trib rapture, you are excused with our blessing.
The fact that you see this discussion as a bunch of siblings, is the very reason, there are so many different interpretations floating around. We are endeavoring to question the pre-trib view here, and to strengthen our belief... We are not here to be sidetracked by those with opposing beliefs.
And we will not take the time to try and get you to see things differently.

Now if I'm mistaken about your point in posting on this thread, I apologize. But I interpret it as an attack. And anymore attacks will be immediately deleted, with no explanation. This topic is difficult enough to understand and to unravel with out having those with opposing view trying to get their say in.

I will, for my own benefit, look into your argument about the last trump, since, I do not want there to be any doubt in my understanding of what Christ would have us to know.

Respectfully yours,

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Postby Sue-M on Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:41 am

Hoshianna, no matter what you believe, you are my sister in Christ and are therefore, my friend. Love ya, sis!

------------------------

Hey, I found another one!!!!! Forgive me if this was mentioned previously. I forget what has been posted.

-------------------------

Hebrews 9:26-28

26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
-----------------------

This clearly tells us that Jesus will return only one time. When He returns again (one time) He will do away with sin. This sounds like the very end to me, because, sin will be taken away by God.

In Verse 28, see, Christ will appear two times, once when He was sacrificed and once to bring salvation. Any rapture would give us 3 times. But, this scripture clearly tells us that He will return at the end of the age.

--------------

Cleveland, my friend, maybe when you get all these scriptures together, somehow, they could be put into some kind of order and cleaned up. I can see that you are tying to keep discussion out of it so that it is fairly clean reading. I commend you for doing this. This is a huge project and you will get much opposition. It's hard not to have discussion though. I find it hard myself, as you can see. :lipssealed: Love ya!
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When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby Sherree on Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:55 am

It's hard not to have discussion though. I find it hard myself, as you can see. Love ya!


Me, too! :lol:
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Postby crmann on Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:38 am

Sue-M Wrote:
This clearly tells us that Jesus will return only one time. When He returns again (one time) He will do away with sin. This sounds like the very end to me, because, sin will be taken away by God.

In Verse 28, see, Christ will appear two times, once when He was sacrificed and once to bring salvation. Any rapture would give us 3 times. But, this scripture clearly tells us that He will return at the end of the age.

--------------

Hi Sue... To you and me this is very clear...however with the pre trib believers, it seems to be ignored.

Cleveland, my friend, maybe when you get all these scriptures together, somehow, they could be put into some kind of order and cleaned up.


Yes, Sue, this is my plan...I hope... The endtime events may be here and gone before I do, however... Such a difficult study...


I can see that you are tying to keep discussion out of it so that it is fairly clean reading. I commend you for doing this. This is a huge project and you will get much opposition. It's hard not to have discussion though. I find it hard myself, as you can see. Lov


Hopefully, all who participate here will understand.

Thank you Sue...

I appreciate all you've been able to post as I know it takes time to pull these scriptures and your thoughts together.

With Love in Christ,

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Postby bchandler on Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:51 am

Ozell,

Your oposition to the term rapture puzzles me. Scripture is very clear that we are rapture... caught up... in the air to meet Jesus.

That IS THE RAPTURE!

Your point that we do not go to heaven, but rather immediately follow Jesus here to earth, is well made, and i think received well by most here.

I think by taking the NO RAPTURE stance you do... yuo have a tendency to create a conflict where none exists. When what you are trying to point out to people is the issue of where we go AFTER we are raptured.. and meet the Lord.

Some asked why the dead in Christ rise first if they are already in heaven... this is simple really... and need not be complicated, or exclude our being with him in heaven after we die.

Paul clearly tells us about what is believed to be his own death experience. He tells us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, he tells us that there is a Spirit body, in heaven, and that one day we will be clothed with a resurrected, incorruptable body, like Jesus was given.

The dead in Christ are raised first BECAUSE, IMO, they come in spirit WITH HIM, and are the FIRST to receive their incorruptable bodies. That is the whole point of the resurrection... to enter into salvation, and rest... to receive that which Christ purchased for us with his blood... an incorruptable, eternal life... lived forever in his presence.

By the way.. where is this place Jesus went to prepare for us? IMO it is the new Jerusalem... a city 1400 miles cubed by some estimates... and it decends out of the new heaven and to the new earth and we are ever with him.

Jesus told us that no man had yet entered heaven except him... but IMO scripture does tell us that after his death he "took captivity captive" releasing the righteous dead from the "Abraham's Bosom" portion of sheol and taking them to heaven with him.

Also remember the word tells us that Jesus wasn't the only person raised. Others were raised with him. These went into the city to testify of Jesus. What happened to these people would be interesting to know... were they raised incorruptable, as he was? Were they caught up into heaven with him at his ascension? The bible we have is silent on this... but it would be interesting to know... They were after all first fruits.. raised on the very day and at the very time the sheave offering of first fruits was being waved in the temple before God.. (or so I have been taught).
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Postby crmann on Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:37 am

Greetings, BC...

Blessings to you, friend...

You wrote a few comments I would like to add my comments to:
Paul clearly tells us about what is believed to be his own death experience. He tells us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord


My thinking here is that if we sleep, as Ozell says, then the truth of what Paul said would still be true. To be absent from the body (and then to be asleep for thousands of years and then be awakened at the resurrection) would be to those resurrected as though they were immediately with the Lord at the resurrection. Would it not?

The dead in Christ are raised first BECAUSE, IMO, they come in spirit WITH HIM, and are the FIRST to receive their incorruptable bodies. That is the whole point of the resurrection... to enter into salvation, and rest... to receive that which Christ purchased for us with his blood... an incorruptable, eternal life... lived forever in his presence.


This is a good statement.

By the way.. where is this place Jesus went to prepare for us? IMO it is the new Jerusalem... a city 1400 miles cubed by some estimates... and it decends out of the new heaven and to the new earth and we are ever with him.


This is good.

Jesus told us that no man had yet entered heaven except him... but IMO scripture does tell us that after his death he "took captivity captive" releasing the righteous dead from the "Abraham's Bosom" portion of sheol and taking them to heaven with him.


I have a problem here... John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turneth herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, Rabboni; which is to say, Teacher. 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene cometh and telleth the disciples, I have seen the Lord; and [that] he had said these things unto her.

This particular passage "took captivity captive" is not easy to understand. And, consider that fact that Jesus told Mary Magdalene that he had not yet ascended unto the Father.. So, how could Jesus have taken the captives to heaven if He had not yet been there?


Also remember the word tells us that Jesus wasn't the only person raised. Others were raised with him. These went into the city to testify of Jesus. What happened to these people would be interesting to know... were they raised incorruptable, as he was? Were they caught up into heaven with him at his ascension? The bible we have is silent on this... but it would be interesting to know... They were after all first fruits.. raised on the very day and at the very time the sheave offering of first fruits was being waved in the temple before God.. (or so I have been taught).


Quite so... this will always be a mystery until we know, as we are known.
As you've pointed out, we are left with many unanswered questions.

I must look into the "took captivity captive", and see if I can understand this better.

Maybe start a new thread....

Thanks, BC....

Love ya...

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Postby bchandler on Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:59 am

CRman,

This passage you posted is another interesting translation choice by the KJV translators.

I have a problem here... John 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turneth herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, Rabboni; which is to say, Teacher. 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene cometh and telleth the disciples, I have seen the Lord; and [that] he had said these things unto her.


The translation of "touch me not" is the issue... some say it should be more appropriately translated as something like... Stop holding me here, or stop clinging to me...

Here are weslyes notes on the subject:

WES: 20:17 Touch me not - Or rather, Do not cling to me (for she held him by the feet,) Mt 28:9. Detain me not now. You will have other opportunities of conversing with me. For I am not ascended to my Father - I have not yet left the world. But go immediately to my brethren - Thus does he intimate in the strongest manner the forgiveness of their fault, even without ever mentioning it. These exquisite touches, which every where abound in the evangelical writings, show how perfectly Christ knew our frame. I ascend - He anticipates it in his thoughts, and so speaks of it as a thing already present. To my Father and your Father, to my God and your God - This uncommon expression shows that the only - begotten Son has all kind of fellowship with God. And a fellowship with God the Father, some way resembling his own, he bestows upon his brethren. Yet he does not say, Our God: for no creature can be raised to an equality with him: but my God and your God: intimating that the Father is his in a singular and incommunicable manner; and ours through him, in such a kind as a creature is capable of.


Notice Wesley cross references this with the account in Mathew...

Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulcher with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshiped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.



Apparently Mary was so glad to see Jesus she was clinging to him... and didn't want to let him go. (which would be a natural reaction should any of our lost loved ones suddenly appear before us).

Apparently this is one of those points of translation where a transliteration to capture the true intent of the passage would have been more appropriate. As is seen so many times... when word for word translation isn't possible because there are no equivalent words to really convey what is being said in the language you are translating into... transliteration is appropriate.

We see this most dramatically with the seven different greek words for love... fatherly love...(love born out of a comitted set of choices) brotherly love... maternal love... sexual love... etc... all translated love... but something is left behind because the translaters failed to communicate the nature and type of love.... using a word for word translation when a transliteration would have conveyed more meaning.

The fact that he had not ascended doesnt mean he didnt or couldnt have taken the souls of those believing dead with him when he did ascend and present himself and them as a firstfruits offering.

As for the other.. Many believe that Paul's discussion in 2 Corinthians chapters 11-12 he is speaking of his own persecutions, and tribulations, and apparently death/s. As such many believe that Paul, in order to prevent people from deifying him... is speaking of his own ascension into heaven when he was stoned to death, or during some other event.
5 times he received forty save 1... understand.. it was not uncommon for someone to die whan placed under the lash for 40 save 1... and Paul endured it 5 times?

Paul says of himself:
2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? I (speak as a fool) I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.


Deaths oft? Seems he experienced death possibly more than once. And each time was returned to finish his work... after receiving additional revelation...

2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


If it was not lawful for a man to utter, how is it Paul knows... unless he is in fact the man he is speaking of.

As for whether we are conscious after death or not I have one word from the mouth of our Lord:

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


Jesus promises those who believe on him eternal life.. ever lasting... if we simply cease to be until called from the grave... then that eternal life is being interupted... if we soul sleep as some suppose... then that eternal life is being interupted... and to me that is contrary to scripture... IMO our eternal life begins the moment we beleive... and nothing can seperate me from my God... not even death... not even for an instant... let alone this soul sleep thing where we are not just unconscious... but we experience nothing.. not even dreams... until we are called forth.
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Postby crmann on Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:19 pm

Hi, BC...

Your entire post of Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:59 am totally intrigues me.

Those (of which I have a neighbor) who are the KJV Only folk are missing so much by being unwilling to study other sources and other Bible versions.

Are there any particular sources you use to help you understand these particular scriptures?

I find your input about Paul's many near death experiences also quite interesting.

Thanks....

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Postby bchandler on Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:30 pm

in this case i am using a combination of e-sword and the on-line parralell bible found at

http://bible.cc/
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Postby purple7 on Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:04 pm

Those (of which I have a neighbor) who are the KJV Only folk are missing so much by being unwilling to study other sources and other Bible versions.

I don't want to get into this topic here, but want to point out a few things about the KJV vs other versions. I am a KJV user only. I do read commentaries, mostly though I use Scriture to figure out what is meant by a word ect. However the NIV, NAS, RSV, New Message bible Ect. are written using the same manuscripts that were used in writing the Roman Catholic Bible. There are two sets of manuscripts and the translators of the KJV bible purposely did not use the flawed manuscripts because at least 80% of the manuscripts agreed with each other, and these were the manuscripts used for the KJV. All the other versions are versions of the Roman Catholic Bible. We can start a new topic elsewhere on this, but wanted to point out there is nothing wrong with KJV only bible users. I am one. :grin:
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Postby crmann on Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:28 pm

Hi, Purple7...

My neighbor who is KJV Only, won't even read commentaries on the scriptures. He is a true KJV Only individual. This is what I mean about their missing out on so much. If he can't find it in his KJV, then it doesn't exist.

He's come to me a number of times wanting to know what certain scriptures mean. Simply because he can't understand the King James language.

And no, there is nothing wrong with KJV only bible users.

Blessings, Purple7
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Postby crmann on Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:29 pm

In this case i am using a combination of e-sword and the on-line parralell bible found at

http://bible.cc/


Thanks, BC... I'll check these out.

******************************

e-sword is not compatable with Apple/Mac

However http://bible.cc/ looks like it will be really good.

Thanks....
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Postby perigrini on Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:32 pm

crmann wrote:He's come to me a number of times wanting to know what certain scriptures mean. Simply because he can't understand the King James language.

And no, there is nothing wrong with KJV only bible users.

Nothing wrong as one is determined to accept errors in the KJV translation.

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Postby Sherree on Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:51 pm

Well, peri, I hope you don't try to turn this thread into a bash KJV only folks!
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Postby perigrini on Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:40 pm

Sherree wrote:Well, peri, I hope you don't try to turn this thread into a bash KJV only folks!

That really wasn't my intent. I don't mind if people insist upon personally using the KJV exclusively themselves. I just think that they should do so realizing that they're narrowing their access to accuracy.

I'll provide an example...

Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:13


Transliteration
ratsach
Pronunciation

rä·tsakh' (Key)

Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)

a primitive root

TWOT Reference
2208


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to murder, slay, kill

a) (Qal) to murder, slay

1) premeditated

2) accidental

3) as avenger

4) slayer (intentional) (participle)

b) (Niphal) to be slain

c) (Piel)

1) to murder, assassinate

2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)

d) (Pual) to be killed


The KJV translates ratsach as kill, although it would more accurately be translated murder...and entire doctrines of pacifism is built upon this less than optimal translation in the KJV. To be sure it does mean kill, by the type of killing known as murder.
If one tosses out all non-KJV sources one opens up the door to error.

I do not say this to bash the KJV as if it's an invalid translation. My point is that is exactly what it is, a translation.
God can and does use imperfect translations to work in us.

And I'm not claiming that another translation is perfect, I'm just pointing out that anyone who acts as if the KJV is the only valid translation and is perfect is deluding themselves.

Blessings,

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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:01 am

I for one love the KJV and its poetic old language. And you always use the Strong's concordance.

But I do note you need to be aware of some of the language of that history, since I am a history buff as well, it is easier for me. The newer translations like the Message which is new age, and those that took out the reference to man and mankind, are not any good I do not think.

I think the NIV and NASB are ok, as I read those two. The NIV to me is a little bit choppy after the King James, but I do not think polluted.
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Postby Sherree on Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:45 am

Wasn't trying to judge your intent, peri. It's just that we have gone over and over this in other threads in the past.If some one makes a statement about being KJV only in any thread, you are always one of the first to try and tell them how wrong they are.

Us KJV only crowd is in the minority here. That's ok, but we don't need others making smart remarks about it. Or taking pot shots every chance they have. I for one do look at other commentaries to find the meaning of scripture. Do it all the time. While I only use KJV, I never have had a problem with others using whatever version God leads them to use. Instead of going about showing the errors in other translations other than KJV, I leave that up to the Lord. I think sometimes it's good to show several translations when it comes to getting the meaning of certain scripture. That way God can lead all of us to which translation is the correct meaning.

I do not see other KJV only people going all over the board correcting any and all other translations, so it's not good for others to do it with the KJV translation.

That's all I'm trying to say. It doesn't even have anything to do with the purpose of this thread.
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Postby bchandler on Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:17 am

Sheree,

I don't think anyone here has a bias against the KJV. All true translations are useful.

Some translations like the KJV attempt to stick stricktly to a word for word translation... using transliteration only when no other choice exists.

Others can go too far the other way being much to liberal in their use of transliteration, when direct translation is available, and conveys the appropriate meaning.

I am not trying to starta debate here... Just pointing out that all translations have their flaws... and being aware of some of these flaws is always a really good idea.

The KJV is my primary translation... but... I do also like to compare at minimum a literal translation... and use concordances and commentaries whenever there appears to be some point of contention or apparent conflict in the word with God's demonstrated character.

I apologize if I have sidetracked the thread with this... as it wasn't my intent... Nor IMO, Crmann or Peri's.

So... I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

Peri, knowing the incredible scholar that you are... I expect you have lots of recources that you have either personally prepared or are at your disposal that could contribute significantly to the study of proofs against the pre-trib doctrine.
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Postby Sherree on Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:56 am

Peri, knowing the incredible scholar that you are... I expect you have lots of recources that you have either personally prepared or are at your disposal that could contribute significantly to the study of proofs against the pre-trib doctrine.


:a3: So come on, peri! What are you waiting on?

Let get this back on target. I was really enjoying this thread!
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Postby perigrini on Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:31 pm

Sherree wrote:Wasn't trying to judge your intent, peri. It's just that we have gone over and over this in other threads in the past.If some one makes a statement about being KJV only in any thread, you are always one of the first to try and tell them how wrong they are.

No offense, but I don't believe this is accurate. I think I've only commented in (if memory serves) something like 2 threads in the past related to KJV. And I am not saying someone is wrong to use just the KJV translation, although I do believe it opens one up to a greater chance of misinterpretation of scripture.

Sherree wrote:Instead of going about showing the errors in other translations other than KJV, I leave that up to the Lord. I think sometimes it's good to show several translations when it comes to getting the meaning of certain scripture. That way God can lead all of us to which translation is the correct meaning.

If you see value and examine other sound translations as well then we are really in complete agreement here.

Christians have done well for hundreds of years with the KJV translation...one can and will find God's teachings in it. Do not misunderstand me.
Sherree wrote:I do not see other KJV only people going all over the board correcting any and all other translations, so it's not good for others to do it with the KJV translation.

Actually, I have, although not all over the place...but I don't go "all over the boards" either...and have posted FAR less on the topic than I've read for KJV only supporters. But that's really immaterial.

But do you not agree that if some words are translated less than optimally in the KJV that people should be aware of it? We are to worship God in both Spirit AND Truth...we shouldn't put on blinders in seeking either.
That's all I'm trying to say. It doesn't even have anything to do with the purpose of this thread.

You're 100% correct here, and I apologize for sidetracking the thread.

God bless,

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Postby purple7 on Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:52 pm

I thought this was a rapture thread not bashing KJV only users? Peri, why dont' you start a KJV vs Other translation thread and we'll talk.
...we shouldn't put on blinders in seeking either

We may not be interested in reading a Bible that a lesbian decided what was appropiate to put in and take out either. Or we may not be interested in reading a bible that is missing about 17% of scripture. It doen't mean we have on blinders. Please don't follow me all over the board and try to bait me into an argument. If you have a problem with me address me in PM don't sidetrack a whole thread. And I know exactly what you are doing I have seen you do this to many others. It's the bait and ban tactic.

Rev 20:1-6
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This first resurrection isn't until after the tribulation here, and going back to your Thessalonians verse, those who are alive do not precede those who are dead. If those who are dead are not resurrected until after the tribulation then neither can those who are alive obviously. I apologise if this point has already been made.
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Postby perigrini on Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:34 am

purple7 wrote:I thought this was a rapture thread not bashing KJV only users? Peri, why dont' you start a KJV vs Other translation thread and we'll talk.
...we shouldn't put on blinders in seeking either

We may not be interested in reading a Bible that a lesbian decided what was appropiate to put in and take out either. Or we may not be interested in reading a bible that is missing about 17% of scripture. It doen't mean we have on blinders. Please don't follow me all over the board and try to bait me into an argument. If you have a problem with me address me in PM don't sidetrack a whole thread. And I know exactly what you are doing I have seen you do this to many others. It's the bait and ban tactic.

Rev 20:1-6
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This first resurrection isn't until after the tribulation here, and going back to your Thessalonians verse, those who are alive do not precede those who are dead. If those who are dead are not resurrected until after the tribulation then neither can those who are alive obviously. I apologise if this point has already been made.

I'm not going to respond to your effort to bait me purple. If you're inclined to lie and attack me you may do so back at Rag's board where I provided you with the opportunity to continue to do so and where there are no rules, I've learned, requiring truth.

In Christ,

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Postby Sherree on Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:45 am

Thanks for your kind response, peri. You are correct about posting in the KJV only threads. If you remember, Cary and I were also involved in those threads. That was quite a while back.

Anyway, I'm not trying to make a big deal out of any of this. It just annoys me when I hear folks speak against the KJV like it's one of the lesser translations. I'm not accusing you of doing that, but some do.

I really appreciate you for the stand you take on the rapture issue! While I am post-trib, or near the end trib, I still appreciate the stand you take. I never even knew there was a view such as pre-wrath, until I came to this board. You taught me so much about this view. So, thanks !!!!
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Postby purple7 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:05 am

I'm not going to respond to your effort to bait me purple. If you're inclined to lie and attack me you may do so back at Rag's board where I provided you with the opportunity to continue to do so and where there are no rules

Your assumptions have no validity. I just asked you to please stop following me on the board posting after me trying to get me to argue with you. I have seen you do this with many others, who have posted on this board and I am not interested.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:09 am

Out of respect for the member who started this thread as well as others who have been participating, I'm suggesting disagreements be handled via pm's or email.

Thanks!
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Postby crmann on Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:07 pm

Thank you, Abiding...

Now, back on track...

Question:

The Great Commission was given to the Church. Now, in considering end time chronology, or the order of those events, When would the Great Commission be completed?

Would it not be completed immediately before the Lord Comes at the sounding of the seventh trumpet?

Another question:

What are the scriptures showing us that there will be many saved during the tribulation?
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Postby Sue-M on Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:26 pm

crmann wrote:Thank you, Abiding...

Now, back on track...

Question:

The Great Commission was given to the Church. Now, in considering end time chronology, or the order of those events, When would the Great Commission be completed?

Would it not be completed immediately before the Lord Comes at the sounding of the seventh trumpet?

Another question:

What are the scriptures showing us that there will be many saved during the tribulation?


Cleveland, I know this scripture....

----------------------

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

---------------------
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:35 pm

Cleveland wrote:

Another question:

What are the scriptures showing us that there will be many saved during the tribulation?


Sadly it looks as though no one will be saved who survive the trumpet and bowl judgments...

At the end of the 6th trumpet, we read:

Revelation 9:

20. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21. Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


After the Bowl or vial judgments, we read:

Revelation 16:

8. And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10. And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11. And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds
.
12. And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


YBIC,

Bob
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Postby Sue-M on Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:51 pm

Luke 13:25

Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

----------------------

It looks like whenever Jesus decides it's finished, then He "closes the door".

----------------
Romans 11:26

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob

-----------------------

I wonder if Israel will be "saved" at the very last moment?


------------------

2 Thessolonians 2:9-12

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,

10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


-----------------

This looks to me that once the Anti-Christ is revealed, non-believers will be deceived by the "lie" and will not be saved.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby Ready1 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:55 pm

crmann wrote:What are the scriptures showing us that there will be many saved during the tribulation?


I would not wish to debate in your forum, but I would ask this question to further your discussion,

What does the term 'firstfruits' signify to you in the following passage?

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


A second question would be,

Who are the 'sheep' in the following passage?

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Just observing.

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Postby purple7 on Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:49 pm

If we look at Rev 14:4 in context it tells us that it is the 144,000
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


The sheep are all His saints.


31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is talking about the Judgement. Hope that helps.
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Postby mark s on Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:32 am

While I know already that many of you will disagree over the timing of this, there is a verse that indicates salvation during the 70th Week:

Rev 11:12-13 "And they heard a great voice out of Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up into the heaven in the cloud. And their enemies saw them. And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth part of the city fell. And there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand names of men. And the rest became terrified, and gave glory to the God of Heaven."

This is when the two witnesses resurrect and ascend into heaven. I understand this to be at the middle of the 70th Week, and that these will come to faith, to then be persecuted by the antichrist.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Uh - I just realized this is on the post-trib forum - this is simply in answer to Cleveland's question re salvation during the tribulation. Otherwise, I'm outta here! :grin:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby OBXBob on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:28 am

Hi mark,

Thanks for your post...even though it was highly illegal... :lol:

You wrote:
This is when the two witnesses resurrect and ascend into heaven. I understand this to be at the middle of the 70th Week, and that these will come to faith, to then be persecuted by the antichrist.


This is the key. You assume the witnessing is done by the two witnesses during the first 3.5 years of the 70th week. Upon what scriptures do you make this conclusion?

I personally think the death and resurrection of the two witnesses occurs near the end of the 70th week.

It would appear that these two witnesses are being blamed by the world for the 'plagues' that they are being blamed for. These events Mark, IMO, are indicative of those of the trumpet or bowl judgments. I do not see these events coming from the first seals.

Revelation 11:

5. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
6. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7. Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.


In order for the A/C to have killed them at midpoint in the 70th week, this would mean that the A/C would have had to have killed them just as soon as he was revealed.

I think the 3.5 years of plagues that the two witnesses are credited with are tagged to the last half of the 70th week.

YBIC,


Bob
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Postby mark s on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:33 am

Hi Bob,

Rather than hijack this thread, I'm going to try to find the first thread I posted to this forum, in which I addressed this.

Look for a bump. . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

PS: I couldn't find the original thread - so I reposted here.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby crmann on Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:02 pm

In answer to Mark S, this isn't a post trib thread...It is for those who are not pre trib.... that takes in a whole tub of wash.
We are endeavoring to wash out mystery.


We're doing good....

Thank you every one....
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Postby mark s on Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:16 pm

Hi Cleveland,

I noticed that we're in the "After the trib of those days talk", but hey, I'm ok if you're ok! :grin:

Anyway, since I am, after all, pre-trib, :scared2:

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby crmann on Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:37 pm

Let's not forget that the rapture is never mentioned explicitly in the Bible, and that the "whole counsel of Scripture" (Acts 20:27) seems to clearly teach that Jesus will resurrect and rapture the Church at the same time as he visibly returns to Earth and that Christians are to look and watch for that event.

1. Some Post-tribulationalists see the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ as part of one main event. Support for this claim is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 in part because of the way the Apostle Paul introduces his topic, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord and our gathering together with him.” This was an ancient way of introducing the topic of discussion and later Paul refers back to the two nouns at least twice as “the Day of the Lord” or “that day.” Thus, “the coming” and “gathering” seem to be two ways of referring to one event, “the day of the Lord.”

2. It seems impractical for Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 to go to great lengths describing the coming of the Antichrist (and the falling away) to the Thessalonians in order to calm them down that the day of Christ's reign on earth had not happened yet if they were not going to be there for it as maintained by the pre-tribulational position. He would be more comforting by reminding them that they wouldn't be present for it than to precisely detail his recognition and say “Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction” (v.3 NIV).

3. Let's look at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. One commentator maintains this passage alone does not mention where the gathered ones finally end up but that those who are alive will be caught up to meet Christ in the air and always be with the Lord. Rather it mentions the dead rising, His Coming, angels, the trumpet of God along with the gathering of the elect and all of these participants are present in Matthew 24:30,31 which is clearly a Second Coming passage even agreed to by pre-tribulationalists. The author, the Apostle Paul, says the Rapture will occur “at the last trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15. Compare this passage with Revelation 11. In the same way, Revelation 21 mentions the first resurrection after the Second Coming in Chapter 19. By definition, there can be no trumpet call after the last one, and no resurrection before the first.

**********************************
Just three observations to consider.......

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Postby Be still on Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:26 pm

1. Some Post-tribulationalists see the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ as part of one main event. Support for this claim is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 in part because of the way the Apostle Paul introduces his topic, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord and our gathering together with him.” This was an ancient way of introducing the topic of discussion and later Paul refers back to the two nouns at least twice as “the Day of the Lord” or “that day.” Thus, “the coming” and “gathering” seem to be two ways of referring to one event, “the day of the Lord.”


This is the way the Pre-Wrath see it as well Cleveland. Before the Wrath of God (The coming of Jesus) also Day of the Lord we are "raptured" ... gathered together with him.
YSIC, Karen
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Postby Be still on Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:38 pm

2 Thessalonians 2
The Man of Lawlessness
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The Tribulation lasts 7 years. The first 3.5 years are Satan's Wrath (war on the saints). The second 3.5 years are God's Wrath (when Jesus appears) ... that is when I am gathered up with Him. The Day Of the Lord and the "Rapture" are the same event. Paul, himself, called his teaching about the saints being "caught up" together with Jesus in the clouds the "Day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.


1 Thessalonians 4

The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Matthew 24

Mark 13

Luke 17

Luke 21

1 & 2 Thessalonians

Revelation

They all support the DAY OF THE LORD.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the distress of those days 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' {30} At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. {31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Here we see the sign of the Day of the Lord, Jesus returning and His elect being gathered (rapture.)



Mark 13:24-27 "But in those days, following that distress, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; {25} the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' {26} "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. {27} And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Luke 21:25-28 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. {26} Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. {27} At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. {28} When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."



Again, the coming of the Son of Man (Day of the Lord.)

Acts 2:20-21 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. {21} And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

In Acts also, the Day of the Lord is the coming of our Lord.



The book of Revelation also follows this same pattern of the teaching of the Day of the Lord.

Rev 6:12-17 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, {13} and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. {14} The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. {15} Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. {16} They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! {17} For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. {10} And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

1st and 2nd Thessalonians supports Day of the Lord. Paul actually calls the rapture - the Day of the Lord. All of the scriptures I've shown above call the Coming of Jesus the Day of Lord = Rapture.



Now onto other scriptures ....

Luke 17:26-27 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. {27} People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.



and ...

Matt 24:37-39 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. {38} For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; {39} and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

I have heard many thoughts on Noah and Lot, but the idea that was always conveyed was that the world was going on just as it always had until judgment came - people were eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. The thought I have heard preached is the unexpected nature of Christ's return. But this is not what this passage is teaching.

The idea this passage is teaching is that judgment and deliverance came on a single day. This becomes even more apparent when we look back at the Genesis story.

Gen 7:1-4 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. {2} Take with you seven… {4} Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

In Genesis God begins by telling Noah that in seven days the judgment flood will come. Many have used this verse to support a Pre-Trib view that just as God warned Noah that the flood would come in seven days the rapture will happen at the beginning of the seven years. The problem is that's not how the story unfolds.

A few verses later in the story...

Gen 7:12-13 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. {13} On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.

Again, on the same day deliverance for God's people and judgment for the wicked come. Now to Luke 17...

Luke 17:29-35 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. {30} "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. {31}On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. {32} Remember Lot's wife! {33} Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. {34} I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. {35} Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

In a single day, Noah and his family were delivered while God's wrath was poured out in the form of a flood. Lot left Sodom and God's wrath rained down in fire and sulphur.

On a single day, in both cases, God delivered His people while pouring judgment out on the wicked. Luke 17 makes an amazing statement comparing this to Jesus' return...

Luke 17

30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot's wife! 33Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.

When Jesus is revealed at His return, on the same day God's people will be delivered and judgment will be poured out on the wicked. This describes the Day of the Lord. God will rapture His people and that will begin the Day of the Lord when God will pour out His wrath upon this world.

The Day of the Lord and the Rapture are one and the same. This is called the Pre-Wrath view.

2 Pet 2:5-7,9 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; {6} if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; {7} and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men {9} if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Rev 6:12-17 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earth-quake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, {13} and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. {14} The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. {15} Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. {16} They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! {17} For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Rev 7:9-10 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. {10} And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

In the book of Revelation we read that this sign of the sun, moon and stars begins the day of the wrath of the Lamb. Immediately after the day of wrath begins, we find this multitude in heaven that no one can count from every tribe and nation. These are the raptured saints.

Now, back to Noah ... because there's one more thing to consider.

Mat 24:39-41 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. {40} Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. {41} Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.


Matt 24:36-39 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. {37} As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. {39} …and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

2 Thess 1:4-10 Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. {5} All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. {6} God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you {7} and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. {8} He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. {9} They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power {10} on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

The days of Noah and Lot (the bible tells the end from the beginning)

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure ..." (Isaiah 46:9-10).
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Postby crmann on Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:41 pm

Excellent post, Karen...

Thank you..
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Postby Sue-M on Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:19 pm

Be still wrote:


Gen 7:1-4 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. {2} Take with you seven… {4} Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

In Genesis God begins by telling Noah that in seven days the judgment flood will come. Many have used this verse to support a Pre-Trib view that just as God warned Noah that the flood would come in seven days the rapture will happen at the beginning of the seven years. The problem is that's not how the story unfolds.

A few verses later in the story...

Gen 7:12-13 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. {13} On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.

Again, on the same day deliverance for God's people and judgment for the wicked come. Now to Luke 17...

Luke 17:29-35 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. {30} "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. {31}On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. {32} Remember Lot's wife! {33} Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. {34} I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. {35} Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

In a single day, Noah and his family were delivered while God's wrath was poured out in the form of a flood. Lot left Sodom and God's wrath rained down in fire and sulphur.

On a single day, in both cases, God delivered His people while pouring judgment out on the wicked. Luke 17 makes an amazing statement comparing this to Jesus' return...

Luke 17

30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.


Karen, great point! As I was reading what you posted about when God told Noah that in 7 days He would send rain. To me, this was God "warning" Noah. Just like we are having warning right now.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby Be still on Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:23 pm

Thank you Sue and Cleveland. I've been doing a lot of studying on this subject lately. My brain is in knots. It helps me to keep notes as I go along to keep things in my head in order. :mrgreen:
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Postby crmann on Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:30 am

Good morning Karen....

At 3:30 this morning I woke up, and then couldn't go back to sleep thinking about this, The Great Commission... as recorded in Matthew 28:18-20.

“All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world” (Mt. 28:18-20 ASV

And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Doesn't it say even unto the end of the world?

Well, when does the Great Commission end?

Does it end at the end of the world?

Wasn't the Great Commission given to the Church?

Will the Church be on earth until the end of the world?

You see, all these questions are spinning around and around in my mind. As you say, my brain is in knots.

Can someone... any someone... help find the answers to these questions?

I love you,

Cleveland
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Postby bchandler on Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:25 am

Crmann,

Just as a suggestion, that help sort some stuff out for you.

I would suggest a few of different studies.

1. Study the messianic prophecies embedded in the feasts of the Lord. Look specifically at what the Jews believe regarding the prophetic messianic implications of those feasts.

2. Study the Jewish betrothal ritual of Jesus time and compare it to the communion ceremony Jesus gave us through the Apostles.

3. Study specifically the prophetic messianic meaning of the feast of trumpets(Rosh Hashana), the 7 day period following the feast of trumpets, and the day of attonement.

I think when you look carefully at these things.. and then go back and look at revelation, and specifically where in revelation GOD declares his "undiluted wrath/anger" you can not help but begin to conclude the following:

1. The harvest occurs between the trumpets and bowls.
2. There is no time frame established for the bowls.
3. There IS a time frame established for wrath in between the feasts of trumpets and day of attonement.
4. That same time frame is a time of wedding of the bride of Messiah, and his bride is protected and in celebration while the unbelieving world is being judged.
5. That period of judgement is 7 literal days.
6. The church will likely be here for all but those last seven judgements... which may be litterally seven days.
7. It is entirely possible/probable that we do not leave the earth with Jesus, but rather are someplace here in celebration, and wedding feast... for the traditional jewish seven day wedding feast... followed immediately by Jesus leading the armies of heaven to put down rebellion and establish his eternal earthly kingdom.

The seven day period between feast of trumpets and day of attonement is the reason why a Jewish wedding feast lasts seven days.

When you understand that Jesus fulfilled the feasts in his first advent, and will complete their fulfillment in his second advent. And when you understand the Jewish betrothal ceremony, and the wedding feast.... I think things become much clearer.

BUT, you will have to study some extra biblical sources to give you the context and meanings behind these things as they are not expounded upon in scripture.

I found it fascinating to read what Jews believe regarding messianic prophecy behind the feasts, and how close they are to having the blinders fall off of them... you can't help but see that their spiritual blindness is from the Lord... That was the sadddest part of that study for me.
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