If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

No opposing arguments allowed

Postby Be still on Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:36 am

And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.


Good morning Cleveland.

The above verse always makes me wonder about the restrainer. Some say the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and some think it is Michael. The above verse makes me think it is Michael since Jesus tells us he will be with us always.

The Great Commission is where faith begins and it would appear, at least to me, that it ends when Jesus returns (after the gospel is preached to the whole world.)

Matt: 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
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Postby crmann on Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:58 am

Good morning, Karen...
You wrote:
The above verse always makes me wonder about the restrainer. Some say the restrainer is the Holy Spirit and some think it is Michael. The above verse makes me think it is Michael since Jesus tells us he will be with us always.

The Great Commission is where faith begins and it would appear, at least to me, that it ends when Jesus returns (after the gospel is preached to the whole world.)

Matt: 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
_________________


My thinking is that Christ gave the Great Commission to the Church. I agree with you that The Great Commission ends when Jesus returns after the gospel is preached to the whole world.

If this is true, the Church cannot be removed until The Great Commission has been completed. So does it matter whether or not the Restrainer is Michael or the Holy Spirit? (My mind cannot compute here.)


Isn't there a verse in the Bible which talks about God reaching a quota of souls being saved? I can usually find scripture verses in the Bible, but this one stumps me.
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Postby OBXBob on Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:28 am

Hi Cleveland,

Is this this the verse you're thinking of?

Romans 11: 25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

YBIC,


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Postby crmann on Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:54 am

Bob asked:
Is this this the verse you're thinking of?


Romans 11: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

That's it, Bob..... Thanks loads....

Now, What do you all think this verse means?
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Postby crmann on Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:00 am

John Gill's Commentary says:

"Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in": that is, till the whole number of God's elect among them, be called and brought into the Gospel church state, which in the latter day will be very great; when the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea; when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ; and the abundance of the sea shall be converted, and the forces of the Gentiles shall come to the church, and multitudes of them shall flock thither, as doves to their windows: and since the blindness of the Jews is not yet removed, it seems plain that the full number of God's chosen ones among the Gentiles is not yet completed in regeneration; for as soon as ever they are all called and brought in, the vail will be taken away from the Jews, and they will be turned unto the Lord.
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Postby crmann on Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:53 am

How about a sermon on Romans 11:25-32 from
Pastor Scott Boerckel's
Roman's Sermon
Series

To hear the sermon, please go to:

http://www.wildwoodchurch.com/sermons/sermon030406.mp3

Senior Pastor
Scott Boerckel

Scott and Carol have been married 23 years. They have three sons: Joel, Mark and Wyn. The Boerckel Family live in East Moline, Illinois.

Scott was born and raised in Peoria, IL. Carol was born and raised in Mishawaka, Indiana. Prior to meeting Scott, she served as a missionary nurse with Send International to the Athabaskans in Alaska.

Scott graduated with a B.S. in Ceramic Engineering from the University of Illinois. He did graduate work in the History of Ancient Israel at Jerusalem University College, Jerusalem, Israel and graduated with a Th. M. Old Testament Language and Literature from Grace Seminary, Winona Lake, IN.

Scott pastored churches in Bremen, IN and La Paz, Bolivia prior to coming to Wildwood in 1996.

Vision for ministry:

"My vision for ministry is to reveal God and His Word graciously and joyously in order to attract and raise up a group of people energized to follow Jesus Christ."

2006 Wildwood Baptist Church--East Moline, Illinois. All rights reserved. Any Questions/Comments/or Problems with the website,click under "contact us" above to e-mail webservant

http://www.wildwoodchurch.com/resources/romans.php
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Postby crmann on Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:55 am

My first one for today:

This idea has already been posted, but thought I’d just bring it to folk’s minds once again. Linguistic support for a one-event 2nd Coming are in the words "meet" and "coming" in 1 Thessalonians 4. The word "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and in Matthew 25:1 (which is also a Second Coming parable) refers to the custom of people going out to meet a dignitary as he was approaching their city before he got there, and accompanying or welcoming him back to where they came from. This is also the usage in Acts 28:15 of those going out to meet Paul as he headed toward them in Rome. Also, the Greek term parousia (translated "coming" or "arrival" in 4:15) has the idea of a grand dignitary making his arrival to a certain location. The rest of the passage supports this grand arrival with His coming being heralded with trumpet, angels, and a surging 'city' of gathered believers going out to meet Him. Who more grand than the Lord Jesus Christ at His coming to reign on earth? This passage lends more weight to the post-tribulational postition.



Another:

Let’s look at some scripture here:
2 Thessalonians:
1:6
if so be that it is righteous thing with God to recompense affliction to them that afflict you,
1:7
and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire,
1:8
rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
1:9
who shall suffer punishment, [even] eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
1:10
when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day

In this scripture, Paul seems to say when the church would receive rest for its suffering. It would take place at the revealing of Jesus Christ with fire and judgment and at this time those who were afflicting the church at Thessalonica would be repaid for such treatment. No mention is made of a Pre-tribulational removal but that rest comes at His Coming and so does judgment.




And another:


A passage much debated regarding the timing of the Rapture is Revelation 3:10 which speaks of the Philadelphian church being "kept from the hour of trial which is about to come upon the whole earth to test those who dwell on the earth."The debate centers around the phrase "kept from" which could be taken to mean "physical removal from" (Pre-trib) or "preservation from or in the midst of" (Post-trib). However it is interesting to note that the verse denotes that the testing is for "those who dwell on the earth." This is a common phrase referring to unbelievers. What we see later in Revelation, on at least 3 occasions, is that the saints are "sealed" and kept out of harm’s way when God pours out specific judgments which only affect His unbelieving enemies (i.e "those who dwell on the earth.") See the following scriptures for examples....

Revelation 6
4 And another [horse] came forth, a red horse: and to him that sat thereon it was given to take peace from the earth, and that they should slay one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. 8 And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him. And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the earth, to killwith sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; 17 for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

Revelation 9:4
And it was said unto them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads. and

And Revelation 12:
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Blessings, from The Old Timer
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Postby crmann on Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:05 pm

Well, Isn't the Lord being good today... In my reading of a book I was given, I came upon another...

Hosea 5:15“I will go away and return to my place until they [Israel] acknowledge their guilt and seek My face in their affliction [during the seventieth week] they will earnestly seek me” This affliction may be understood both of the Assyrian and Babylonish captivity; or rather of their present affliction toward the close of it, when they shall be sensible of their sins, and confess them, and look to him whom they have pierced, and mourn, and seek for pardon, righteousness, and salvation, from him; and so all Israel shall be saved, of whose conversion this is a prophecy.

(1.) He will leave them: I will go and return to my place, to heaven, or to the mercy-seat, the throne of grace, which is his glory. When God punishes sinners he comes out of his place (Isaiah 26:21); but, when he designs them favour, he returns to his place, where he waits to be gracious, upon their submission. Or he will return to his place when he has corrected them, as not regarding them, hiding his face from them, and not taking notice of their troubles or prayers; and this for their further humiliation, till they are qualified in some measure for the returns of his favour. (2.) He will at length work upon them, and bring them home to himself, by their afflictions, which is the thing he waits for; and then he will no longer withdraw from them. Two things are here mentioned as instances of their return:-- [1.] Their penitent confession of sin: Till they acknowledge their offence; marg. Till they be guilty, that is, till they be sensible of their guilt, and be brought to own it, and humble themselves before God for it. Note, When men begin to complain more of their sins than of their afflictions then there begins to be some hope of them; and this is that which God requires of us, when we are under his correcting hand, that we own ourselves in a fault and justly corrected. [2.] Their humble petition for the favour of God: Till they seek my face, which, it may be expected, they will do when they are brought to the last extremity, and they have tried other helpers in vain. In their affliction they will seek me early, that is, diligently and earnestly, and with great importunity; and if they seek him thus, and be sincere in it, though it might be called seeking him late, because it was long ere they were brought to it, yet it is not too late, nay, he is pleased to call it seeking him early, so willing is he to make the best of true penitents in their return to him. Note, When we are under the convictions of sin, and the corrections of the rod, our business is to seek God's face; we must desire the knowledge of him, and an acquaintance with him, that he may manifest himself to us, and for us, in token of his being at peace with us. And it may reasonably be expected that affliction will bring those to God that had long gone astray from him, and kept at a distance. Therefore God for a time turns away from us, that he may turn us to himself, and then return to us.

Satan must do all in his power to prevent what God has clearly pre-dicted He will do with Israel — namely, bring the entire nation back to Himself in salvation. When Israel as a nation comes to her Lord, as the Lord Himself has declared she will, then He alone “will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one" (Zech. 14:9). Satan will use his eighth and final beast empire nation, ruled by his minion Antichrist, in a final but vain attempt to destroy God’s elect nation of Israel and “the rest of her offspring [the church], who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus” (Rev. 12:17) — hoping thereby to thwart God’s plan for His people by leaving Him no earthly subjects over which to rule. All of this will occur during the seventieth week of Daniel; all of this, then, encompasses what we call the "end times."

Now, let me point something out here....if you have not already seen it, who is Satan using today (right now) to try to destroy Israel? Why of course, the Muslims...Palestanians....the Persians...the people of Islam. Satan is even now preparing his armies to wipe out Israel.

Once again, looking at Hosea 5:15“I will go away and return to my place until they [Israel] acknowledge their guilt and seek My face in their affliction [during the seventieth week] they will earnestly seek me”

As God did previously when Israel turned away from him, so Jesus has done to Israel when they rejected Him as His first coming.

Matthew 23:39 when He said, “For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’” The Apostle Peter tells the Jewish nation that it will not see Jesus again until its people: “Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time” (Acts 3:19- 21). “This, then, is the two fold basis of the Second Coming; Israel must confess her national sin,” explains Fruchtenbaum, “and then plead for Messiah to return, to mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son.”

One more sign.... when we see the Nation of Israel saying ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ then we will know He is on His way....

And as we read in Luke 21:28
[color=blue"]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."[/color]

IN CONCLUSION
The Bible clearly teaches that the time of Jacob’s trouble (the Tribulation), in which the non-elect Jews are to be purged out and removed while the remaining believing remnant will the saved (both spiritually and physically), did not occur through events relating to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Sorry Mr. DeMar, but try as you might, through your naturalist interpretations, you cannot ram, cram and jam these supernatural events into the first century. These texts of Scripture just do not fit! Instead, they require a future fulfillment for a literal nation of Israel. Fruchtenbaum says, “Only by faith in the Son of Man can Israel be regenerated. Only by calling upon the Name of the Lord can Israel be saved spiritually. Only by the return of the Son of Man can Israel be saved physically.” Yet, that is exactly what will occur in the future in the Tribulation. The Lord is setting the stage for these future events since He has brought His chosen people back to their land in anticipation of both the purging of the non-elect and the redemption of the elect. Maranatha!
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Postby Hippiechic on Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:17 pm

Hey... don't have time to read it all tonight, but I'll be back! It's good so far. I may have some to add as Chris J has a huge notebook he compiled full of the kinda stuff you're lookin' for with a post-trib bent, but more in the spirit of explaining against pre-trib like you want. I'll pull it out of the closet when I have a chance and flip through it. :grin:
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Postby crmann on Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:05 am

Good morning, Hippiechic...


Hey... don't have time to read it all tonight, but I'll be back! It's good so far. I may have some to add as Chris J has a huge notebook he compiled full of the kinda stuff you're lookin' for with a post-trib bent, but more in the spirit of explaining against pre-trib like you want. I'll pull it out of the closet when I have a chance and flip through it.


This sounds really great.

I have a missionary friend who will be my guest in a few days, I would like to share some of these points with him....

Thanks...

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Postby Hippiechic on Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:31 pm

This has already been addressed, but I love the quote from George Mueller "Can there be any resurrection before the first one and can there be another trump after the last one?" It's just so good!

How about I come at it from a slightly different angle? I have some typical pre-trib proofs that I can prove are mere allegory and not fact.

Rev. 4:1 Is generally accepted as the rapture by pre-tribbers but what is wrong with this picture? There are no clouds, no trumpet (just a voice as a trumpet), no shout, no archangel, no dead in Christ or meeting the Lord in the air. John's body is not changed into a new body, he is merely in the spirit when he sees these things. He is called to the Throne of God, not the clouds, to see the future... not to be raptured. To make this the rapture is to misunderstand typology and symols in Scripture and is seeing a deeper, secret meanin nowhere hinted by the text. It's just talking about John.

Another one:

Rev. 4:4-10 the "four and twenty elders" are said to represent to glorified church after receiving their rewards... but they are never said to symbolize or be a type of anything. Is is possible that these elders are simply OT saints that ascended to heaven with Jesus at His first advent? We really don't have enough info on them to draw rapture doctrine from. The literal reading works just fine and leaves no reason to allegorize.

Another one:

Enoch represents the church raptured out before the flood destroys the earth in Gen. 5:24 and Heb. 11:5
The facts: He was not a member of a church, did not have a pastor, was not baptized, etc... and was never said to be a symbol of anyone who was therefore he is not. Also no mention of clouds, shout, trump, going up, dead in Christ, etc. and it takes place 669 years before the flood... OOPS! Kinda off on the numerology!
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Postby Hippiechic on Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:42 pm

On why imminency doesn't work:

Check out the context of the verses that include 'day' and 'hour' such as
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

(BTW it doesn't say no man knows the month/year/decade/century/ect)

Matthew 24:36,44,50 and Matt. 25:13 are all AFTER Matt. 24:15, 19-20 - When ye, therefore, shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) .... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, And then shall appear the Son of man, in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Then he says but of THAT day and hour knoweth no man... the day of His visible coming which will occur immediately after the tribulation of those days. But we don't know the literal day or hour.

His coming will be imminent THEN but not now.
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Postby Hippiechic on Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:50 pm

Commanded to watch:

for what? The abomination of desolation and the sun and moon being darkened.

Matthew 24:15

As in the parable of the fig tree which is another great proof for a non-pre-trib rapture (that was a mouthful!)

Matthew 24:32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree: When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

Observe:
We know summer is coming when we see the tree putting out leaves
We are to watch for the heralds of summer (events of spring)
We are not to watch for the coming of summer

In such a way we will KNOW that the Lord will return soon when we see:
Antichrist revealed
post-tribulation signs of the darkened sun and moon

The lesson here is that summer comes unexpectedly to those NOT watching for signs of summer to come. For those watching, it will not be a surprise

Therefore we ARE to be watching for the coming of the Antichrist in order to KNOW that the coming of our Saviour is at hand.

"Lift up your heads redemption draweth nigh!"
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Postby Hippiechic on Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:59 pm

Matthew 24:8 and Mark 13:8 "beginning of sorrows"

Sorrows is greek meaning a pang or throe, especially of childbirth

The woman does not 'look', 'watch', or 'wait' for the painful time of labor. But, she most certainly awaits and looks for the birth of her child with eager anticipation. At the same time she knows that there are signs of childbirth that will occur before she can experience that joy of holding her newborn.

She looks beyond the travail to the JOY of birth.

The birth is her hope but the heralds of her hope are travail and sorrow (OY! my water broke!! :eek: )
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Postby Hippiechic on Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:52 pm

Revelation 3:2-3 "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard; and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

Conditional statement: If they do not watch, He will come on them as a thief; therefore, if they do watch, He will NOT come on them as a thief.
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Postby Hippiechic on Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:57 pm

On that same note:

I Thess. 5:1-6

"But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

If these brethren watch then that day will NOT overtake them as a thief.

So the Day of the Lord is like a thief to the lost and the non-watching saved, but not like a thief to the watching saved. Those of us who are watching for the signs of the fig tree. :0)[/b]
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Postby Hippiechic on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:03 pm

The SAME DAY:

Luke 17:28-30

"...But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man is revealed."

Lot is the non-watching saint who is caught unawares but still taken out. The people in Sodom are the lost who are destroyed the same day that the saved are taken out.
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Postby Hippiechic on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:08 pm

James 5:7-8 Shows that there can be no imminent return:

Be patient therefore brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth night."

Farmers wait for the harvest to mature before the harvest. The farmer is waiting for the latter rain first, and so it is with waiting for the Lord's return.

Have patience! James says. But be expectant.
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Postby Hippiechic on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:14 pm

To believe in imminency skips over so many prophecies that had not yet been fulfilled in the days of Christ, Peter, or Paul. None of them could have taught this doctrine. But that could take me all day to go through... :grin:

So I'll skip to the good stuff on Can Christ leave heaven right now?

Ps. 110:1 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, the LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

In Acts 2 this is clearly defined as the ascension and states that Christ will not leave the Father's side until it is time to overcome His enemies. And his enemies will not be overcome until after the Tribulation.
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Postby In His Grip on Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:37 pm

crmann wrote:Here's #5.

Scripture is pretty clear just by the statement that Christ is coming to take us to Himself, John 14:1-3, and the fact that the dead in Christ are raised before we're all raptured. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 If the dead in Christ are raised to meet the Lord up in the air, then the dead can't be with Christ in heaven before then.

John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Jesus told His disciples, just before ascending to heaven, that He was going to prepare a place for us, and that He would come again to receive us unto Himself. Christ has not yet returned.

If, as the pre trib crowd believes, we have been raptured up into heaven, then how can the following be true.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Why would the dead in Christ be raised if they are already in heaven? Why wouldn’t Christ just bring them with Him to gather those who are alive and still on the earth?

In my way of thinking, this is a problem for the pre trib crowd.

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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:45 pm

Welcome to the board, In His Grip!
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Postby In His Grip on Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:22 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Welcome to the board, In His Grip!


Thank you. I appreciate that.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby bkhoward2001 on Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:34 am

This is a great thread. It is important to know the scriptural reasons against this false doctrine of Pre-Trib. Equip yourself with the truth and God will give you the opportunity to open the eyes of others.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby lambslave on Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:12 am

See www.expressright.com/pretrib.aspx for a discussion of why pretrib has problems. LS
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Yogi on Thu May 06, 2010 6:11 pm

Jesus gave two examples from scripture about this: Noah and Lot. In both cases, God's people were delivered from among the wicked ON THE VERY DAY that the divine judgment came down from on high...not before!

He then said,..."it will be just like this..."
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 06, 2010 6:25 pm

Yogi wrote:Jesus gave two examples from scripture about this: Noah and Lot. In both cases, God's people were delivered from among the wicked ON THE VERY DAY that the divine judgment came down from on high...not before!

He then said,..."it will be just like this..."


Agreed. And they protected while still on the earth.

:wavewelcome: to the board, Yogi!
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Ready1 on Mon May 10, 2010 4:13 pm

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in. And his sons and his wife and his sons' wives went in with him into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Gen 7:8 Of the clean animals, and of the animals that were not clean, and of the fowls, and of everything that creeps on the earth,
Gen 7:9 two by two they went in to Noah into the ark, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
Gen 7:10 And it happened after seven days that the waters of the flood came into being on the earth.


Don't forget that they were in the ark for seven days before the water came... (grin)
Just observing.

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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby mark s on Mon May 10, 2010 11:24 pm

Just a reminder . . . this is a "Post Trib Only" thread . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Yogi on Tue May 11, 2010 7:27 am

Not to worry Mark,

Since this is a post trib area, I am sure others would be stopping by to read a bit. The above comment is a common mis-read. It comes from failing to carefully consider the nature of "pre-telling and re-telling" in the Old Testament as well as other ancient writings. If someone wants, we could walk through it, but I trust the intelligence of most will vindicate the statement I made.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby jgilberAZ on Tue May 11, 2010 7:30 am

Ready1 wrote:Don't forget that they were in the ark for seven days before the water came... (grin)


Not exactly:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights. On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them entered the ark, (Gen 7:11-13)
emphasis mine

While I am technically not post-trib, I do believe that it is a view that is supported by scripture. I like to say that I'm 60% prewrath and 40% posttrib. So ... can I still post in this forum? :grin:

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2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby mark s on Tue May 11, 2010 7:48 am

The purpose of these "protected" forums is to allow those who believe these views a place to discuss them without having to be concerned with defending them. This is why debate over the accuracy of the view is not allowed.

Anyone can post in these forums, only not for the purpose of debating the view.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Ready1 on Tue May 11, 2010 12:20 pm

I'm not a debater Mark. I was just throwin' out a scripture. :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby mark s on Tue May 11, 2010 12:51 pm

I think the best way to determine whether or not you (whomever you may be) should post in this, or one of the other protected forums, is to ask yourself, what is my purpose for this post?

Is it to learn more about the view? That seems like a good reason to me. Is it to give the others something to think about, because you don't think that view is correct? This is what we don't want. Is it to oppose in any way the protected view? That is what the protected forum is here to guard against.

I hope this helps to clarify . . .

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby bchandler on Tue May 11, 2010 1:06 pm

ok, this statement has nothing to do with rapture views, but to ask a clarifying question.

Is it possible that both scriptures are correct?

1. On the same day they entered the rain started.
2. The waters of the flood took 7 days to build up enough to affect the ark where it was built.

We obviously have no idea where it was built, or how far above sea level, or how quickly portions of the continental shelves sank when the great fountains of the deep were broken up.

It seems reasonable to me that he rains probably started a lot sooner than the flood waters acutally reached the ark.

Wouldn't this allow the possibility for both scriptures to be true, and also to shed some light on the potential prophetic picture? How would both of these statements being true affect the prophetic picture people use this event to paint end time events with?
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby jgilberAZ on Tue May 11, 2010 4:21 pm

I'd have to check the scriptures again, but ... I think it means something like "the animals started arriving and being loaded into the ark seven days before the rains came." Then, on the same day Noah and family entered the last time, the rains came.

But, I'd have to re-check to be sure I'm remembering correctly.

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2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Yogi on Tue May 11, 2010 6:28 pm

Hi again folks,

As I stated above, this are is commonly mis-read. Pre tribbers try to use it against the post trib view. If you look carefully you will see the same little story is told then re-told. I think this is done for emphasis on important events.

Just look at it a few more times and it should click. You will be convinced that Noah entered the ark on the SAME DAY that the rain came down.

Look at verse 4. God is telling Noah that 7 days from now I will cause it to rain. Verse 5-10 are parenthetic, (except they didn't use parentheses back when it was written).

Verse 11is meant to mark a VERY IMPORTANT DAY! And what do you know? The windows of heaven were opened!!! It rained!!!

V. 12-like parenthesis (again)

V.13- There they go entering the Ark on the SELFSAME DAY!!! Another reading would force Noah to enter the Ark twice. We can't have that. Hope this helps.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Yogi on Wed May 12, 2010 8:12 pm

crmann said. How about helping me make a list of scriptures supporting reasons why the pre trib rapture cannot be true."

Ok here is Rev. 15:8 again:

And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled

Pretty much says it all right there. I've seen some pretty high powered writing about this one and all they can do is make speculations to try to get around what it says plainly.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby lambslave on Wed May 19, 2010 7:57 am

In the Book of Revelation when John wrote to the seven churches in "the day of the Lord (Rev 1:10)" "or as some translate "the Lord's Day," they were on earth. They did not subsequently get removed from earth before the seals and trumplets happened. The only notices we have of saints or witnesses of Jesus clearly place them in the Tribulation. The Lord warns them (us) of tribulation type consequences, chapters 2-3, shows us all proper worship in heaven, and then begins the process of reclaiming what is His (seals, trumpets). When He's all done with the work, he comes (chap 19). Lambslave
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby CaryC on Thu May 20, 2010 7:53 am

Hey,

I'm a post tribber, but was just offering some thoughts, and thought they might come off as debating, and wanted to let everyone know up front that I'm not.

I find it interesting that pre-tribbers will point to Enoch as a "type" of the pre-trib rapture, but if you really look at it, he was taken 600 years before the flood. So to continue to use Enoch as a type, they would have to start to manipulate scripture (make it jump through hoops) to prove their point. In other words do something with the 600 years, like make it have a meaning in conjuction with the rapture.

Another hurtle pre-tribbers will have to jump in using Enoch as a "type" of the pre-trib. rapture: At the time of his translation/rapture he would of had to of been the only believer on earth. Any other believer would of been "left behind".

Whether you hold to the view "righteous line of Seth" vs. "the unrighteous line of Cain", to explain Ch. 6 or the Nephilium view, you have to take into consideration that Enoch's parents, and grand parents were still alive, not to mention his long lived child Methuselah, Lamech. Enoch died about 60 years before Noah was born. (Meth. was born to Enoch when he was 65, who had Lamech when he was 187, who had Noah when he was 182, Enoch lived another 300 after Meth was born: 187+182=369, make it 69 years before Noah was born). Another thought: none of Noah's family died due to God's judgment on the earth, they were all dead before the flood came.

We do know at the time of the Flood only Noah and his family were righteous enough to live. What about the rest? If you do a timeline you will see that his parents, grandparents, and great grandparents, all died before the flood came. For Methuselah, whose names means "When he dies it will come" died in the same year of the flood, and according to his name, he would of died before the flood started. So for Noah and his family we can say yea they were the only ones, but we can't/they can't say that about the time of Enoch's translation.

And the Bible doesn't say, as it was in the time of Enoch, it says Noah.

As for Lot there was no translation. Only a moving to a place of safety, which was a cave. Now that is similar to Noah, moving to a place of safety. Only then at a time when the righteous were less than 10 (so to with Noah, a total of 8 persons).

I'm not saying that when the rightous on earth gets to 10 or under is when the Great Tribulation will start, but I think the case can be made for there only being a "remnant".

To me and in MO that view doesn't make the scripture jump through hoops, but is a consistence method in which God moves and works. Proving HImself in a fashion so that we, those near the end, will believe and have faith in the mighty hand of God.

There is much we can learn from them ol' dull hum drum geneaolgies, and probably from a bunch of other dull hum drum scriptures. Ya see, it's all important.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby jgilberAZ on Thu May 20, 2010 8:19 am

CaryC wrote:... they would have to start to manipulate scripture (make it jump through hoops) to prove their point.


That's the only way they can come up with their view ... it certainly can't be found clearly presented in any scriptural texts.

Edited to add this:

Here's a few blog entries where I discuss Jack Kelly's scriptural support for the pretrib view ... including using Enoch as a type for the rapture ...

Response to Jack Kelley, Part I
Response to Jack Kelley, Part II

- Jeff
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby CaryC on Thu May 20, 2010 3:08 pm

Hey Jeff,

At least that is the way I see it. Another thing that I find extremely interesting is: not a single pre-trib. person, that I know of, points to Elisha, or was it Elijah (I keep getting them confused) translation as a "type" of the rapture. Remember the one taken up in a chariot.

I wonder if it's because it doesn't fit, in any form or fashion, to a pre-trib view. The only reason I can see for not using it is because they can't make it jump through any hoops to manipulate the verses to support a pre-trib view.

Just some thoughts.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Yogi on Thu May 20, 2010 5:45 pm

Nice going Cary!

Yeah they truly paint themselves into a corner with that Frankenstein theory. And like the monster it is, it will one day turn on those who make it live! It is amazing to watch. So many otherwise bright people, stumble over this particular teaching. I suspect as time goes by the "any minute" cry will get louder before the realization finally sets in. Only then will its proponents understand the reproach brought to the name of Jesus by the deception.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby CaryC on Thu May 20, 2010 7:12 pm

Hey Yogi,

Well, gee thanks, glad you liked it.

For my part I'm not to hard on them though. I know I've done some things that brought reproach on that beautiful name, and when I think about it, I could go to the bathroom and hurl. Glory be to God forever more, for His mercy.

I know you feel the same way being smarter than the average bear. Great call sign.
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Re: If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby Yogi on Sat May 22, 2010 6:07 pm

Yeah I'm with you on that. I may seem hard on them but someone has to address its main proponents. I don't like being the hard nosed guy all the time. God knows I've blundered-big time!

But there are certain proponents that no matter how they are shown otherwise, use all sorts of sleight. I hate to say it but only one teaching can be true. The other is destined to bring hurt, that is probably why I remain adamant.
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