If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

No opposing arguments allowed

If you are not pre trib, help me out here.

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:58 pm

How about helping me make a list of scriptures supporting reasons why the pre trib rapture cannot be true.

If anyone can suggest a correction or addition to any of the reasons, please do so.

Rest assured that I am not trying to prove pre wrath or post trib here. I have yet to lean either way. I just know the pre trib rapture is a false teaching.

1. Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

In the pre trib rapture, how can the dead take part in the first resurrection if they have already been resurrected in a rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mark 13:24-27
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

2.
Last edited by crmann on Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:14 pm

2. One writer makes the statement that the saints will be alive during the tribulation, but will be protected by His grace. While the plagues will be falling all around them, they will not be touched. God’s church will go through the tribulation and emerge triumphant.

Thus the sequence of events in the time of the end is that before Jesus comes, the mark of the beast will be enforced. This will lead to the outpouring of the seven last plagues. at the end of the plagues, Christ will come to deliver His people and take them home.

John tell us: Revelation 15:8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

Thus the popular teaching of the “secret rapture” is not supported by Scriptures. If God’s people were to be raptured or taken to heaven before the plagues were poured out, they would obviously have entered the heavenly temple. Yet the Bible clearly says that nobody will enter the temple in heaven until the seven last plagues are fulfilled.

Prior to the beginning of the plagues, the solemn announcement will be made: “He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

Then and only then will Christ’s work as our High Priest in heaven be ended. Every case will have been decided for eternal life or eternal death. The door of God’s mercy will be shut, ushering in the “time of trouble” spoken of by the prophet Daniel. Daniel 12:1

“Then I heard loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, ‘Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth’” Revelation 16:1

This one, I will admit is kind of weak in its proof. I would appreciate other’s input on this one.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby simplemod400 on Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:34 pm

i just read Matthew 24, Jesus gave the time line Himself, he says after the AoD we will see Him comming.
Matthew 24 is my favorite chapter.
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
simplemod400
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:11 am

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:42 pm

3. Please notice in the following scriptures the words ‘meet.’ Meet, in the Greek is apantesis. The term apantesis, as used in antiquity, was used when a dignitary paid an official visit to a Greek city. When the leading citizens went out to meet him and escort him on the final stage of the journey back into their city this was called apantesis.

Those who teach the rapture, believe Christ will rapture the believers up and take them to heaven. However, in truth, those who will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, will immediately return with Him to the earth. They don’t go to heaven with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet (apantesis) the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

John 12:13 The people took branches of palm trees and went out to meet (apantesis) Him, and cried out: "Hosanna! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' The King of Israel!"

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet (apantesis) the bridegroom.

Matthew 8:34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet (apantesis) Jesus.

Matthew 25:6 And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet (apantesis) him!'

As can be seen here, none of these scriptures can be used to support a rapture as taught by pre trib believers.
Last edited by crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:17 pm

Thank you Simplemod400...

I just read Matthew 24, Jesus gave the time line Himself, he says after the AoD we will see Him coming.


This brings me to my next proof. #4.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:28 pm

# 4.

2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Of course, when the antichrist sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, that is the 'abomination of desolation'.

Mark 13:14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Three events must take place before Christ returns:

1. A falling away...

2. The antichrist revealed and exalting himself above God...

3. And, immediately after the tribulation of those days...

Those who teach a pre trib rapture seem to ignore these scriptures.

Christ will not come until these three events take place.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:47 pm

Here's #5.

Scripture is pretty clear just by the statement that Christ is coming to take us to Himself, John 14:1-3, and the fact that the dead in Christ are raised before we're all raptured. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 If the dead in Christ are raised to meet the Lord up in the air, then the dead can't be with Christ in heaven before then.

John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

Jesus told His disciples, just before ascending to heaven, that He was going to prepare a place for us, and that He would come again to receive us unto Himself. Christ has not yet returned.

If, as the pre trib crowd believes, we have been raptured up into heaven, then how can the following be true.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Why would the dead in Christ be raised if they are already in heaven? Why wouldn’t Christ just bring them with Him to gather those who are alive and still on the earth?

In my way of thinking, this is a problem for the pre trib crowd.

*********************************

However, I see a problem here, which the pre trib crowd would pick up on.

Notice Matthew 24:27-31 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that there is no mention of the dead being raised in the above scripture. So, how do these two scriptures fit together? 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:27-31
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:30 pm

Here’s #6.

Let’s think on Acts 3:21...

When Peter stood up to preach before the wondering crowd who were eye witnesses of the healing of the lame man at the beautiful gate of the temple, he told his hearers in no uncertain tones, "Ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you: and killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead" (Acts 3:14-15). But, after having said this, he consoled them with these wonderful words: "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all His prophets, that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may he blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto You: Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:17-21) Peter's statement speaks clearly of the times of the restitution of all things. Restitution, according to the best English usage, means the act of restoring something that has been taken away or lost; the act of making good or rendering an equivalent as for loss or injury. (Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary) This is in exact harmony with the Greek word temuriak which means restoration.

Some will no doubt reply to this by stating, as many do, that Peter was not promising that God would restore everything but only those things of which the prophets had spoken. I wish, however, to show as clearly as possible that the grammatical construction of this sentence declares the exact opposite to be the truth. I mean that Peter was actually saying that all the prophets from the beginning of the world had prophesied that there would be a restoration of all things and that the restoration would indeed be universal and would include all things. You will notice that in the scripture quoted (Acts 3:21, King James Version) there is a comma after the word things. This comma indicates that the clause following : "which God hath spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets since the world began" - is what is known as a nonrestrictive clause. A nonrestrictive clause is one which can be omitted without changing or destroying the meaning of the principal clause or main statement. (See Mastering Effective English by Tressler-Lewis, Revised Edition, Pages 545-546.) It simply adds further information. Now read the scripture, omitting the clause in question, and you will find the meaning is clearly stated and nothing of the sense is destroyed. If this clause were modifying the word things, it would be restrictive and no comma would be used.

To this agree the words of many scholarly translators, a few of whom I will quote here for the benefit and understanding of all who desire to read.

Let us see how a few scholarly translators interpret this scripture:

"That the Lord may send Jesus, your long-decreed Christ, who must be kept in heaven till the period of the great Restoration. Ages ago God spoke of this by the lips of His holy prophets." Moffatt.

"Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy prophets - the times of the restitution of all things." Weymouth

"He must remain in heaven till the time for the universal reformation of which God told in ancient times by the lips of His is holy prophets." Goodspeed.

"Whom it behooveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age." Young's literal.

We could easily fill the page with the words of many other translators, but I think the above is sufficient to testify that this is the true meaning of the words of Peter and that he was teaching us and all who have ears to hear the Spirit's voice that there is coming a time of universal restitution and reconciliation in which all things will be restored as they were in the garden of Eden; whether they be things in heaven, things in earth, or things under the earth. And Christ will not leave heaven (for a rapture) until that time, which will be just after the Great Tribulation and just before His thousand year reign here on earth.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:40 pm

Here’s #7

Psalms 110:1-4
1 A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." 2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! 3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. 4 The Lord has sworn And will not relent,

I understand Psalms 110:1-4 as telling us that Christ is at the right hand of God the Father, and will remain there until the enemies of Christ have all been subdued. Or after the Great Tribulation.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:42 pm

Come on people, I can use some help here.

Please....

I've just about posted all I can think of.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby Tevye on Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:54 pm

This is an interseting thread.
Press on.
I'll try and be encouraging, and supportive.
It's been a real bad day.
Please pray for us,
we need a peaceful transition
from our current situation.
And healing for our two sick children.
His will be done.
Tevye
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 5:39 pm

Postby AndCanItBe on Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:01 am

Good job, Cleveland. I can't really think of anything else to add at the moment.

Teyve, I'll be praying for you guys.
Image
User avatar
AndCanItBe
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 18647
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:24 am

Postby studybug on Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:03 am

What do you think about Revelation 14:14-16? Seems to me that the harvest (ie rapture) happens, then His wrath in Rev. 15.
I don't know just something I noticed a few days ago while working on my bible study.

Any thoughts? I am not good at debating so please be kind...truly just something I noticed and was wondering about. :a2:
Image
User avatar
studybug
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:18 pm
Location: Texas

Postby ozell on Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:37 am

Hi Cleveland/FP


Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The Last day is when Man will be raised. The end of the Great tribulation is NOT the last day.

ozell
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby ozell on Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:56 am

Hi Cleveland/FP

God gave man 6ooo years to work

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine *** may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

Ex 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.

Deut 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Ps 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2Pt 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

at the end of the 6th day 6000 years comes the 7th day God day of rest

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he

we must enter into this rest.

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
3: For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4: For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5: And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

6: Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

when?

Rev20v4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Rv 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Man was given the earth for 6000 years or 6 days
Jesus will rule at the 7000th year or 7th day
The bible speaks of a 8000th year or a 8th day which is the Father kingdom.

man is on the earth for 6000 years or 6 days
Jesus kingdom is on the earth for 1000 years or the 7th day
The Father's Kingdom New Jersualem comes down from heaven after the 1000 year reign of Jesus. The book calls this the 8th day.

during the 6000 years of man when did man get raptured? when did man get raptured during the 1000 years of Jesus?

they don't!


ozell
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby crmann on Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:06 am

Hi Studybug,

I am not good at debating so please be kind


Don't worry, how can I be unkind to a fellow believer. Rest assured that what I am doing here is not a debate. I have been wanting to do a study of this topic for sometime. I have just chosen to do it here where I know there are others that may be able to help me.

If you have read some of my notes along the way, I am hoping that some one may be able to improve on what I, in my lack of expertise, have managed to put together.

I will look at Revelation 14:14-16? Seems to me that the harvest (ie rapture) happens, then His wrath in Rev. 15.

If you have anymore suggestions, I am all ears.

Thank,

Cleveland
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby crmann on Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:45 pm

Thanks, Ozell....


Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
3: For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4: For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5: And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6: Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


There seems to be a lesson in the scripture you quoted, but I'm missing it. In fact, it strikes me as being a really good point, but somehow I'm not getting it.

I'm really slow at times.

Cleveland
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby ozell on Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:08 am

Hi Cleveland,

It's not about being slow, its about understanding when it comes to the Word of God. Being slow is man's concotion to belittle its fellow man.

Jesus return will begin the 1000 years of rest and peace for this earth and its inhabitants.

This is the rest that Paul talks of in Hebrews.
Heb3v10: Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11: So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12: Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13: But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14: For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16: For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17: But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18: And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19: So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

We know that the Israelites 20 and over that left out of Egypt with Moses
will not enter into the rest of God. Paul tells us this.

This rest is in the future not the past. Paul lets us know this also.

Heb 4v1: Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2: For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:
but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3: For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.4: For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5: And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6: Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11: Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Take a close look at the above verses and see Paul is telling us.
The Israelites in the wilderness its Jesus voice they heard.
Its is Jesus voice that we hear today.
Its is Jesus rest that they will NOT enter into.
It is Jesus rest that we must enter into.
It is the same rest that we all must enter into

The rest did not take place at the creation on the 7th day in Genesis
The rest takes place in Revelation


How do we know this? Look what Jesus said

Jn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The Father and Son are still working even unto this day.

Take a close look at Hebrew 3 and 4

You will find Paul speaking about a rest that all believers of God must enter into.
This rest will not have unbelievers in it. That is why he gives the example of the Israelites
This rest was offered to the Israelites, this rest is offered to us.

when do this rest comes? it comes with the return of Jesus and his 1000 year rule upon the earth
.

ozell
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby ozell on Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:29 am

Hi Cleveland

This is a lesson that we teach at the class I attend.

Lets look at this REST of GOD on the EARTH.

Is 14v1: For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2: And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3: And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4: That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5: The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6: He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7: The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

Future

Jer 50:34 Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon.

future

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

future

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7: And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8: And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Future

Ps 132v11: The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12: If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13: For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.


Rev20v4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no room for a rapture before the great tribulation or after.

Everything takes place on this earth

The creation
Satan kicked out of Heaven to the earth
The First man and Woman
God becoming man and coming to earth
The Anti Chirst
The AC temple
The great tribulation
The coming of God again to earth
the 1st resurrection
The lake of fire on earth with the beast and false prophet put into it first
The setting up of Jesus kingdom on earth His 1000 years rule
2nd resurretion/white throne Judgement
New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to earth
The Father coming to earth with New Jerusalem

THE EARTH IS THE PLACE WHERE JESUS AND THE FATHER WANT TO DWELL!

OZELL
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby ozell on Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:09 am

Hi Cleveland

Man has been on the earth for 6 days or 6000 years. I refer to Adam creation.

A day to the Lord is a thousand years. a thousand years is a day.

2Pt 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord said man shall labour for 6 days or 6000 years

Ex 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

The Lord told Adam he shall live by the sweat of his brow. work

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Lord said that the 7th day should be a day of rest.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Ex 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed

Paul tells us that this is much more that a weekly day of rest.
He tells us that there is a day of rest as that remaineth.
The weekly sabbath points to it.

Heb 4v1: Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2: For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3: For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4: For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5: And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6: Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


ozell
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby crmann on Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:27 am

Good morning, Ozell...

This is beautiful, what you have presented.

I am puzzled, however, by the following:

Hebrews 4:8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

What does the writer mean by another day?

Thanks, and blessings...

Cleveland
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby Allthingsnew on Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:05 pm

I like how these scriptures work together too.

Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Job 14:3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 [ SO MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, THEY SHALL NOT AWAKE, NOR BE RAISED OUT OF THEIR SLEEP]
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy WRATH be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.


(JOB 14:12 TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE)
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN], and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and (RAPTURE --->)THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT (<---- RAPTURE)from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

(JOB 14:12 TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE)
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

When you get the pretrib stuff out of your head (It took me awhile). Then scripture starts to make sence. I'm just ashamed I took that view for so long without researching it for myself. But now I feel my eyes have been opened to the truth.

Allthingsnew
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW.
User avatar
Allthingsnew
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Western N.C.

Postby ozell on Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:05 pm

Hebrews 4:8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

What does the writer mean by another day?


Hi Cleveland

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Did God rest on the seventh day? NO

so there must be another day.

Jesus will rule for 1ooo years on this earth during this time the first resurrection will have occured. This is the rest.

This is another day.

a day to the Lord is 1000 years, a 1000 years is a day.

when Jesus return this starts another day. the 7th day the rest.

Take a look at the creation, each day for 6 days the Lord created something on that particular day.

1st day-light -1000year
2nd day-heaven-1000year
3rd day-grass and trees- 1000year
4th day-stars,sun,moon-1000year
5th day-water animals-1000year
6th day-man and earth animals-1000year
7th day-God rest

did God rest on this day in Gensis1? no

Jn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The Father and Son are still working even unto this day.

another day must be coming since God have not rested.
the 7th day cannot be here yet.

The Israelites in the wilderness did not understand this and the israelites of today do not understand this.

The rest is the 1st resurrection if we are so blessed and the flesh and blood people that make it into Jesus Kingdom. THIS IS THE REST.
This is the start of the 7th day.

ozell

ozell
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby ozell on Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:10 pm

H Fp

GOD'S SABBATH A DAY OF REST

GOD'S 7TH DAY SABBATH

(Leviticus 23:3) Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwelling.

Whether its due to lack of knowledge or understanding the majority of people worship on the day opposite the one, which God commanded them to. God's Sabbath is the 7th day of the week the day we refer to as Saturday. Yet the majority of people observe Sunday as God's Sabbath. And by adopting this practice the Christian Community demonstrates that it lacks understanding when it comes to God's Sabbath and what it signifies. Moses tells you that the Sabbath shall be a sign.

(Exodus 31:16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

(Exodus 31:17) It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

WHY OBSERVE GOD'S SABBATH?

Now sign in the Hebrew means signal or evidence and the question one should have is what does the Lord's 7th Day Sabbath signify? The answer is that by obeying God's commandment and attending a holy convocation or gathering on the 7th day, one signifies that they believe in the Lord's Sabbath, or his day of rest. God created the Sabbath to benefit man now as well as in the time to come. Sabbath means rest and it points to a time when Jesus will give the whole world rest. Observing the Sabbath shows that you are a believer, desiring to enter into God's day of rest. And while it is good, to be able to get refreshed, just from the toil and grid, of everyday life, by participating in God's weekly Sabbath, one's efforts should be about entering into God's day of rest. God's day of rest will be a thousand years for as Peter tells you in (II Peter 3:8) But, beloved be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Take note of the fact that Jesus spoke of providing rest, but we will see that this rest is still yet to come.

GOD=S DAY OF REST STILL TO COME

(Matthew 11:28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

We find that this rest has not yet come when we look at the scriptures in (Hebrews 4:8-11). First we are being told that Jesus had not given them rest for if he had he would not have spoke of another day.

(Hebrews 4:8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then he would not afterward have spoken of another day.

The next verse tells you that there remains a day of rest for the people.

(Hebrews 4:9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

HOW TO ENTER INTO THIS DAY OF REST

One cannot enter into this day of rest until they have ceased from their our works. And what does ones works consist of, obeying the commandments of God.

(Hebrews 4:10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Remember Jesus told all who labor and are heavy laden to come to him, in order to receive this day of rest. What constitutes you laboring? Because of your belief you strive to keep God's commandments. That is your labor. The next verse tells you to labor to enter into the day of rest lest you fall due to unbelief.

(Hebrews 4:11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

WHEN YOU CAN ENTER

INTO THIS DAY OF REST

This day of rest will occur at the first resurrection, remember the day of rest will be a thousand years. When one dies that does not mean they are entering into the day of rest at that time. One will enter into the day of rest if they are elected, to be participates in the first resurrection.

(Revelation 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, an which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is the first resurrection. This is what you want to strive to be a part of. Because if you are called up in the first resurrection, you then enter into God's day of rest, and you don=t have to worry about the 2nd resurrection or the White Throne Judgment.

(Revelation 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

(Revelation 20:6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and reign with him a thousand years.

You read where you will be priests of God if you enter into his day of rest. The prophet Isaiah tells more of what will be happening during this thousand years. He starts off by telling that Jesus the root of Jesse shall stand as a sign for the people.

(Isaiah 11:10) And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

(6) The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together: and a little child shall lead them.

(7) And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like an ox.

(8) And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice= den.

Truly this will be a time of peace and as Isaiah said his day of rest will be glorious

ozell
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby ozell on Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:10 pm

When you get the pretrib stuff out of your head (It took me awhile). Then scripture starts to make sence. I'm just ashamed I took that view for so long without researching it for myself. But now I feel my eyes have been opened to the truth.

:a3:


Hi allthingsnew

what a blessing in hearing your testimony.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

You unhardened your mind.

Rv 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

you have allowed the Lord to enter in and teach you.

You have allowed the holy spirit to teach you and not some man that have not the spirit of GOD.

Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Num 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.


2Pt 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Bless you in the mighty name of JESUS

ozell
Image
Peace to all in Jesus mighty name
User avatar
ozell
 
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:17 am
Location: Chicago Il

Postby crmann on Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:58 pm

Thank you AllThingsNew....

When you get the pretrib stuff out of your head (It took me awhile). Then scripture starts to make sense. I'm just ashamed I took that view for so long without researching it for myself. But now I feel my eyes have been opened to the truth.


What a mouth full of truth!!!

And thank you for the scriptures.

Ozell, thank you, too.

BTW.. a long time ago, I knew twin brothers who were named Ozell and Odell. Actually, I knew Ozell better than his brother Odell.

Ozell was the principal of an elementary school where I taught summer school one summer. Ozell Ackerman...
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby CaryC on Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:10 pm

Hey Cleveland,

What about Matthew 13? I say what about cuz, some verses work better for some people than others.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

That is the parable itself, and here is Jesus' interpretation of His own parable:

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I'm just scrambling around looking at stuff, so this may not fit what you are looking for. Someone may have some really good stuff on this, but it looks like this could be the apostasy (the Tares ?) and the Tribulation period causes a separation between the wheat and the tares. The only rapture I see in these verses is the rapture of the wicked. (just kidding)

Thoughts???

Also you may want to look at Ps 91 a very good one, even for now.

Malachi 3: 16-18 and maybe some in 4

I know the following verse is used a lot by pre-tribbers but really look at the verses:

Isa. 26: 20, 21 umm you might just want to back up and read all of 26.

Am I off target here???
Cary
Wise Men Still Seek Him
Image
User avatar
CaryC
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:55 am
Location: Somewhere 'tween here and there

Postby crmann on Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:39 pm

Hey, Thanks, Cary,

I had forgotten about the wheat and the tares.

I'll be checking out the other scriptures also, Ps 91, Malachi 3: 16-18 and maybe some in 4, and Isaiah 26: 20, 21 and all of 26.

Am I off target here???


I don't think so......

Thanks again.

Cleveland
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby CaryC on Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:12 am

Hey crman,

Just thought of another one:

I Cor 15: 51-52 "twinkling of an eye" verse which is used by pre-tribbers, but read the verse "at the last trumpet" necessitates there being some earlier or previous trumpets, preconditions to be met before the last one is blown.
Cary
Wise Men Still Seek Him
Image
User avatar
CaryC
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:55 am
Location: Somewhere 'tween here and there

Postby crmann on Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:13 am

Right, Cary...

I Cor 15: 51-52 "twinkling of an eye" verse which is used by pre-tribbers, but read the verse "at the last trumpet" necessitates there being some earlier or previous trumpets, preconditions to be met before the last one is blown.


I've got to look into this one.

Cary, I've had three different individuals ask me theological question in the last few days, so I've been having to use what time I have to research for answers. But I'll see if I can't get onto this one soon.
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Any imformation concerning before the world began!

Postby Glen on Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:04 pm

I would agree the written word speaks of the hope of Israel and the things pertaing to it! the first advent was hid in scripture in types and similitudes references to the light to the gentiles reaches back to Eve and the promises about her seed, it all falls within the kingdom promises since the foundation of the world, and the verses you site do cover the restoration of that kingdom to Israel, But is that the end of the story or did God have some things hid in his mind never before known through out the ages? Gentile salvation wasnt hid, the scripture foreseeing God would save the heathen preached then Gospel unto Abraham, maybe it was a new calling not related to Israels blessings, maybe in few words, about unsearcbale riches in a seeming fictional place called heavenly places, with all Spiritual blessing, were a rapture isn't needed for those already seated just a tranformation from flesh to Spirit that circumcision Paul remarks about in Colossians a full circumcision of the flesh.

Glen.
Glen
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:16 am

Postby CaryC on Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:19 am

Hey,

Just going to add this add this here just in case someone doesn't read the other thread:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Cary
Wise Men Still Seek Him
Image
User avatar
CaryC
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:55 am
Location: Somewhere 'tween here and there

Postby Wickus on Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:36 am

I am not a pre-trib, but there is some verses that indicates that we might be raptured before the Great Tribulation (3.5 Years)

Luk 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is usually the pre-trib's greatests arguments. Any views on that?
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Wickus
 
Posts: 1344
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:31 pm

Postby Arfur on Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:22 pm

Wickus wrote:I am not a pre-trib, but there is some verses that indicates that we might be raptured before the Great Tribulation (3.5 Years)

Luk 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is usually the pre-trib's greatests arguments. Any views on that?


Hi,

As those who enter the millennium consist of both the resurrected and the mortal believers then one must cater in ones understanding for the situation which applies to either or to both in each scripture.

Underlaying scripture in the NT is the duality of both the first resurrection and the second but in the OT it was mostly speaking of the last raising of the dead to the last judgment.

Jesus reaffirmed the teachings of the OT, and added some more information relating to the first resurrection but Paul and others spoke mainly about the first resurrection and not the second to the saved, even though the church still spoke to the masses of the last judgment upon all men.

The millennium and the first resurrection and what is required of them who live at any time to enter it, is taught to believers of Christ who have entered into His covenant.

But to the general population, Christ is preached as the way to escape Gods condemnation and survive the last judgment.

Many believers from throughout history will survive the last judgment, who are not in the first resurrection, especially many of those who lived only before the time of the cross.

Not all believers were overcomers like Abraham, (Lot) neither are all believers overcomers today.(many churchmen)

The difficulty so many face concerning the millennium is that they expect a new world like the garden of Eden, but it will not be, for it is this present one of the last days. Is ch2. and is only transformed where people receive Christ and His saints, and only according to their faith in walking with God as we also do today.

Restoring is not a magic wand, but the restoring of righteous rulers over and in the church and state will be sudden.

Does Cleveland mind me making comments on his posts from the beginnning of this thread? I have a few.

Arfur.
Arfur
 
Posts: 358
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:59 pm

Postby CaryC on Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:16 am

Hey Wickus,

Just want to poke this in here:

concerning Rev. 3: 10 there is a good read at this site:

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/rev310.html
Cary
Wise Men Still Seek Him
Image
User avatar
CaryC
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:55 am
Location: Somewhere 'tween here and there

Postby Wickus on Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:46 am

Thanks CaryC!

A very good argument. I checked on my E-Sword Strong's concordance, and the writer of the article passed the test with the Greek meanings of the words.

:blessyou:

A short tribulation can't weigh up against an eternity of glory.
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Wickus
 
Posts: 1344
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:31 pm

Postby David L on Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:55 pm

"We were educated thoroughly on Islam 9/11" - joymart

"Thus says the Lord GOD, 'This is Jerusalem; I have set her at the center of the nations, with lands around her. Ezekiel 5:5
David L
 
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:31 pm
Location: Orange, CA

Postby watch2000 on Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:37 pm

2 THESS 1
watch2000
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:54 am

Postby rizen on Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:03 pm

Wickus wrote:I am not a pre-trib, but there is some verses that indicates that we might be raptured before the Great Tribulation (3.5 Years)

Luk 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is usually the pre-trib's greatests arguments. Any views on that?


The "hour" of Revelation 3:10 is actually one of my favorite prooftexts for a Pre-Wrath Rapture. I realize there are varied interpretations of the expression "kept from", with many non-pretribbers suggesting this simply means protection from (ie. "woman" [Messianic remanant of Israel] being protected from "Dragon" [Satan] in Rev. 12) the day of God's wrath.

The word "hour" is used ten times in the book of Revelation. Seven of those ten times it is used to describe one literal hour (60 minutes) or a specific point in time (Rev. 9:15). In short, there are three texts that talk about "hour" in the broad sense of an indefinite period of time.

The three times the term "hour" is used in the broad sense is found in Rev. 3:3, Rev. 3:10 and Rev. 17:12. While I am not dogmatic on this point, it is interesting to point out that, while the "hour of temptation" in Rev. 3:10 and "one hour" of Rev. 17:12 have no direct connection, there does appear to be an implied connection as neither one refers to either one literal 60 minute hour or a specific point in time.

The term "hour" in Rev. 3:10 is reserved to "try them that dwell on the earth", while the "hour" of Rev. 17:12 is talking about a period of time when the ten kings "receive power with the beast."

What's interesting about the "hour" of Rev. 17:17 is that this "hour" the ten kings receive power with the beast is actually highlighted five verses later in Rev. 17:17.

Rev. 17:17 states: For God hath put it in their (the ten kings) hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Of course God doesn't put this into the hearts (via the Holy Spirit) until after Mystery Babylon (city of Rome) is destroyed in Rev. 17:16. This is interesting because the "hour" in which the ten kings agree to do this seems to indicate this happens sometime after Mystery Babylon is destroyed. And since most prophecy experts believe this occurs sometime after the midpoint of the Seventieth Week, this "hour" could be defined as an unspecified period of time after the midpoint of the Seventieth Week (ie. Day of the Lord?). Logically, then, if "hour" in Rev. 17:12 is talking about the "day of the Lord," then it follows the "hour of temptation" outlined in Rev. 3:10 could specifically talking about the Day of the Lord.

Of course this is all based on the assumption the "hour" in Rev. 17:12 is talking about the same "hour of temptation" in Rev. 3:10. I realize this is a stretch, but at least it can be backed up by the simple logic that places the "hour" the ten kings "receive power with the beast" in Rev. 17:12 to the text of Rev. 17:17, when they do indeed give this beast the kingdom (after the destruction of Mystery Babylon).
rizen
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:27 am

Postby crmann on Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:27 pm

Greetings, Rizen..

Thanks for your input.

And welcome to FP.

And, Arfur... I don't mind at all... welcome.

And thank you, CaryC and Wickus, for you comments.

I must say, I am taken back at the resurrection of this old thread. For a few months I have not been able to be here a whole lot, and see that I need to get back into the action here.

Blessings, All....

The Old Timer,
Cleveland
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby mommalisa on Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:32 pm

I don't normally respond to these kind of threads, because I just know a lot of you out there are so much more knowledgable than I, but, I think like this:

In many of the verses (Matthew, Mark, Thess., 1 Corinthians) there is an agreement that : 1. Every eye shall see Him
2. There will be some noise (trumps, etc.)

Both of these rule out a "secret" rapture

And then the sun darkening and the moon, doesn't this line up with the opening of the sixth seal?

I just recently sent out a letter to my entire family warning them that the pre-trib rapture may not happen. I quoted scripture and made my case, so far I haven't heard much feedback, I think it went over like a lead balloon.
mommalisa
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:23 am
Location: central florida

Postby crmann on Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:49 am

Good morning, Mommalisa.... 

Along with the other reasons I have posted undermining the teaching of a pre trib rapture, I would like to post another very important reason for not accepting this teaching. 

It is long, but those interested can copy and read at their pleasure.             
               
            When you research the history of Pretribulation Rapture, you will find that it is part of an entirely new belief system termed Dispensationalism. Although I will be dealing with Dispensationalism, the doctrine, in detail in the following chapters, I believe that it is also important to provide a brief sketch of the history of PTR .   However, we should a couple of basic roots of the pretribulation rapture doctrine.
           First, there is the issue of the separation of Israel and the Church. Dispensationalism has one basic premise that turns it away from the teaching of the early Church, and the Bible for that matter. It is best described by a dispensationalist. Read what Dr. Charles Ryrie writes:
''A dispensationalist keeps Israel and the Church distinct . . . a man who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctions.''(1)  
            In order to develop a time period when God will deal with the nation of Israel, dispensationalists teach that the Church will be raptured from the earth a split second before the Tribulation Period begins. This rapture timing is defined by the word pretribulation, obviously an appropriate term to describe their event. Dispensationalists declare that at that point God is finished with the Gentile Church.  They believe that the pretribulation rapture is then followed by an intense seven year tribulation as God deals with the Jewish people in an attempt to get them to turn to Him. At the conclusion of the Tribulation Period, Jesus comes for the third time, then another rapture takes place, and the Millennium begins.      
               The idea of a pretribulation rapture is possible, because dispensationalists keep the church and Israel separate in eschatology. Thus, they design an event that snatches the Church out of the world so that God can deal only with Israel.  The many Scriptures written to the Church that deny a pretribulation rapture are interpreted by dispensationalists to be meant for Israel. With this faulty method of interpretation, the dispensationalist can cast off onto the Jewish people all the Scriptures that he or she does not want to accept. The fact is, this is a relatively new approach to interpreting eschatological scriptures.   If people are going to believe in the pretribulation rapture, then they should do so because they know the facts.
               It is also a fact that the Early Church did not believe in a separation between the Church and Israel that qualified eschatological scriptures one way or another at the will of the interpreter.  When Jews are saved, they become just as much a part of the Church as a Gentile.  Of course, the Jews who reject Christ are outside of the Church, but so are the Gentiles who reject Him.  To the extreme that dispensationalists take, the separation of the Church and Israel theory has produced the pretribulation rapture doctrine.
                Where did this doctrine come from? Who are the people promoting it? In spite of recent attempts to attribute the pretribulation rapture doctrine to the early church by several leading proponents, the doctrine had no mention in any valid historical document before the 19th century. If anyone held the belief before then, it is certain that it was most certainly not received by any detectable percentage of Christianity. The doctrine of the pretribulation rapture of the Church is a new doctrine that surfaced early in the 19th century and gained popularity in America at the beginning of the 20th century.  
               The origin for the pretribulation rapture is well documented. The doctrine was publicly revealed first by a London preacher named Edward Irving.  After receiving information by a woman named Margaret McDonald, who claimed to receive a revelation from God, Irving began to publish teachings about the pretribulation rapture in his journal, The Morning Watch, about 1830. 
            About the same time period, an Anglican minister by the name of J. N. Darby came up with the idea of Dispensationalism while studying the Book of Revelation during a time of recovery after falling from his horse. Even though many have wrongly credited John Darby of the Brethren with originating the pretribulation rapture doctrine, he was still defending the historic posttribulation rapture view in the December, 1830 issue of "The Christian Herald."  As late as 1837 Darby saw the church "going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews. And we now know that he didn't clearly teach the pretribulation rapture doctrine before 1839. It was not until 1839 that Darby finally began to clearly teach a pretribulation rapture. Later on in the nineteenth century Darby incorporated the idea of the any-moment secret into a last-days scheme which has come to be known as Dispensationalism. 
            A little over a half a century later, C. I. Scofield took a fancy to the doctrine and thought up the plan for a reference Bible that would help to explain the complicated structure of Dispensationalism to the masses. He constructed his reference Bible to include Darby's dispensational error, which included the doctrine of pretribulation rapture. The Scofield Reference Bible introduced Dispensationalism into the American church shortly after the turn of the 20th century. It was first met with great resistance, and caused much confusion and conflict among professing Christians. Throughout time, it has gradually become accepted and defended by many as true, Biblical doctrine.
            The most visible people who promote Dispensationalism today are mainly from the Baptist denominations. Although the Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal organizations, including most Charismatic groups, also promote Dispensationalism, the best-known individuals that promote it are Baptists.
            The modern instigator of what has become known as newspaper exegesis is a man by the name of Hal Lindsey.  Hal Lindsey's book, The Late, Great Planet Earth has sold millions of copies and opened up a whole new field of "ministry." The "ministry" is called Prophecy Teaching and it is the most exciting and entertaining enterprise that Christianity has ever seen.
            The pretribulation rapture and subsequent seven-year tribulation are the twin center pieces of this sensational flood of material. Today, books, tapes and videos that flow out of this dispensationalist industry are eagerly purchased by the faithful hordes that are hungry for more scintillating information. Currently the most popular stars in this very relatively new  "ministry" are Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins, two writers who teamed up to produce several best sellers. Their books reached the New York Times best seller list and the two authors have appeared on top rated talk shows including Larry King Live.
            The pretribulation rapture has become, as one writer for MSNBC said when describing LaHaye and Jenkins' fictional books about the rapture, a "cottage industry." Millions are being made by people who have sensationalized a false doctrine and caused a great number of people needing frequent "fixes" of rapture information to become addicted to it. It is as if an industry of confusion has been created, and these men present an endless stream of exciting answers that come in all shapes, colors, and sizes.  But the confusion never seems to end.  Thus, there must be rapture kits and other aids to help people understand this confusing doctrine for which there are no definitive Bible scriptures.
            For the purpose of understanding how the pretribulation rapture came to be the popular doctrine that it is today, I will present a brief account of the trail from the most probable origin of the pretribulation rapture as it connects to Darby, and then from Darby to Scofield. Then we will follow the trail from Scofield to Lindsey, and onward to the current propagators today.  The first mention of the pretribulation rapture that had any significant impact on Christianity came from an English minister, Edward Irving.  However, before we consider the Irving's source for the doctrine, we should first consider a popular concept of the PTR origin that attributes it to Manual Lacunza.
Manuel Lacunza
            Manuel Lacunza was a Spanish Jesuit Priest.  Lacunza was banished from Chile in 1767 with other Jesuits. Shortly after, he fancied himself to be a converted Jew and changed his name to Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra. In about 1791, Lacunza finished writing a book entitled "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" under the name of Ben-Ezra.  In his book, Lacunza hinted that Jesus would return two times for the Church. His first return would be to get His Church out of the world so that God the Father could pour out His wrath. This may be the portion from which came the idea of a pretribulation rapture. 
               The book never became very popular. In fact, it would probably have slipped into oblivion as so many unpopular books have done throughout the years. However, Lacunza's book somehow made its way to England, where Edward Irving—whom we will discuss later in this chapter—found it in the library of the Archbishop of Canterbury in London.  Irving translated Lucunza's book into English and became enamored by some of the doctrine in it.  However, it is most likely that Irving did not get the pretribulation rapture from Lacunza's book.  
               However, I believe that Irving gleaned some information form Lacunza that helped him to form his doctrine.  There were theories in Lacunza's book that were not traditional.  Irving took a bit from here and there to feed his active imagination.  Lucunza helped to provide some fodder for his thoughts. 
Edward Irving
            Edward Irving was a powerful charismatic preacher who preached in the Caledonian Chapel in London. The rather small chapel was filled with crowds that included the elite of society. His greatest weakness was, as one man wrote, "he was a ship without a keel, swung around in each new breeze until at last he was blown over." (16) Sandeen describes the impetuous disposition of Irving in the following quote:
Irving loved the mysterious -- "loved to see an idea looming through the mist." And once captured by such an idea, once seized by its mystery, he would become its slave, never asking what contradictions of complications might follow."(17)
            I refer the reader to an article by George T. Stoke's in Littell's Living Age for valuable insight into the nature of Edward Irving.
Let us take Edward Irving first. The men of this generation have very little idea of the vast influence exercised by the weird, majestic eloquence, the seer-like utterances, the colossal person of the famous Scotch preacher. Ministers of state, noblemen, theologians, literary men, all ranks and conditions of society, were led captive by him. His teaching, which was closely modelled (sic) upon the style of the old Hebrew prophets, dealt very largely with the subject of unfulfilled prophecy and the speedy manifestation of the second advent of Christ. Irving infected his hearers with his views and expectations. Meetings for the study of prophecy became the fashion.  (18)
            Irving was enamored by prophetic studies, and began meeting with James Hatley Frere every week to discuss prophecy. It was not long afterward that Irving was the most charismatic spokesman for millenarianism. Irving reportedly read Lacunza's book and became fascinated by the doctrine of any-moment secret rapture. He translated it into English, and Lucunza's book once destined for extinction was again published in London in 1827.
            Not long after reading Lacunza's book, Irving began to preach the secret rapture of the saints, claiming that he heard a voice from heaven commanding him to do so. This may be the reason that some people attribute the origin of PTR to Lacunza.  Some of his meetings during 1828 in Scotland brought crowds of approximately10,000 people. Irving's church in London was famous for his prophetic declarations and for attracting famous, influential people of society. The building seated one thousand people, and was filled to capacity each week. The many prophetic declarations that Jesus was coming soon that produced great excitement. A person might see from this a parallel to the exciting Charismatic and Pentecostal churches today who revel in prophesies and sensationalism and draw huge crowds.
            Also during that time, Irving started conducting Bible conferences and studies throughout Scotland on any-moment secret rapture. It was during this time that J. N. Darby and Irving began to have contact with each other. Although Darby's doctrine of Dispensationalism includes the idea of a pretribulation secret rapture, but it didn't begin with such.  I am prone to believe that he may have gotten the idea from the Irving's version of the rapture.
            Irving was conducting a series of meetings during this time in the castle of Lady Powerscourt for the study of Bible prophecy, especially any-moment secret rapture. Several of Irving's followers attended, as well as ministers from others religious organizations. J.N. Darby and the other Brethren leaders were also invited and attended these meetings. It was at these series of meetings that Darby was undoubtedly introduced to Irving's teaching of the Rapture and interpretation of prophecy.  In 1833, he heard the doctrine of a secret rapture at Powerscourt for the first time in public.  Although I have not yet discovered if Darby had ever read Lacunza's book or in any way agreed with it, there certainly is documentation that he knew and studied with Irving and the Irvingites.
            The following excerpts from Stokes' article is very revealing.
These events were not without a great influence on Darby. He was for some time curateate of Calary, the next parish to Powerscourt, where he imbibed the Irvingite theories about prophecy, which coincided with his natural turn of mind. He became intensely ascetic. The overstrained expectation of Christ's speedy personal advent worked in 1830 the same practical results as they did in the second century with the Montanists, and again about the year 1000 A.D., when men thought the end of the world was surely at hand. What, they naturally said, was the use of earthly labor, or comfort, or enjoyment, when this world is so soon to pass away as a dream, and the world of eternal realities so soon to be revealed?
From Irving, then, Darby derived his prophetical system, which became one of the most prominent features of his system, and one of the rocks, too, on which that system was rent asunder. (19)  
              Now we turn to the question of Irving's source for the doctrine.  Although he at may times had claimed it was a divine revelation, was the revelation to him or to someone else?  Dave McPherson, in his book, The Rapture Plot, declares that Irving received his information from a young woman named Margaret McDonald. 
However, he may also have been influenced by a woman named Mary Campbell, who was a friend of Margaret McDonald.  Mary Campbell sought the gift of the Holy Spirit and  she spoke in tongues about March of 1830.  Later, she "received the gift of automatic writing, which is writing while in a trance.   The letters were often unintelligible.  But just as unknown tongues were interpreted, one could also interpret automatic writing.  Campbell and her husband, a Scottish clergyman, visited Irving in his home.  It is reported that they were Irving's guests for a considerable time.  During that visit, Mary Campbell spoke frequent messages to Irving that were allegedly from the Holy Spirit.  Although Campbell spoke the prophecies in the church meetings, she spoke them in the meetings in Irving's home.   
Margaret McDonald
            Now we come to Mary Campbell's friend, Margaret McDonald.   What hadn't been widely known until recent time was that the Irvingites had been influenced by a young Scottish woman who had privately told Irving, John Darby, and some other clergymen in early 1830 that the Lord had revealed to her that part of the Christian church would be raptured before the revealing of the Antichrist during the tribulation while the rest of the "church" would endure that period.  However, the first public teaching of the pretribulation rapture was in a September, 1830 article in The Morning Watch, a British journal published by Irving.  After Irving received Margaret McDonald's handwritten account of her revelation, The Morning Watch began echoing her novel view.  The article clearly stated that part of the Christian church (described as the "Philadelphia" of Revelation 3) will be raptured to meet Christ in the air before the "great tribulation," adding that "Laodicea" (described as the "church" that will face the Antichrist) will be left behind to go through it.    
          In this piece from Holman's Bible Dictionary, the idea of a secret rapture is assigned to Margaret McDonald. The article wrongly states that McDonald was in Darby's congregation and that he received the doctrine directly from her. 
The Role of J.N. Darby
" The idea of a two-stage return of the Lord, unheard of before 1830, became the platform for the movement called 'dispensationalism.' Ms. McDonald's pastor, J. N. Darby (1800-1882), picked up on her idea and began to make use of it in his sermons. Darby was responsible for developing the two-stage coming of Christ into a fully developed eschatology, or theology. He had been an Anglican clergyman until 1827 when he left the church to join the Plymouth Brethren." (15)
            Although there are questions as to whether McDonald's vision contained references to a pretribulation rapture, it was certain that she was in the same circle as Darby. I have not discovered anything in my research that indicates that McDonald was ever in Darby's congregation. Also, I have read McDonald's vision and do not see a pretribulation rapture explicitly spelled out. However, if dispensationalists can find such a doctrine in the Bible, I suppose I could do the same with McDonald's vision, since it contains several references that might be construed to be a pretribulation rapture. Although there may be another vision, I am not aware of it. Here is the McDonald vision in totality that is being circulated as the one Irving is supposed to have gotten his theory of a secret rapture from.
"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'  I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.  
(Since almost every Christian believed in posttribulation rapture at this point, it appears that McDonald is about to present something different here. —Author) 
I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.  
(In this section, it appears that McDonald is submitting the idea of a secret rapture, one that only the saints will see.  This contradicts the scriptural coming of Christ where every eye shall see Him. —Author)
Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.'?'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.  Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. 
(Again, McDonald presents the idea that only the redeemed will se Him appear.  The Scriptures flatly contradict her statement.—Author)  
No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.  I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.  I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.  I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.  I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.  I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.  I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.  The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept.  I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.  I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.   When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.  I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.  This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.   Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''  
             Even though one may conclude that Margaret McDonald did not expressly state a pretribulation rapture in her revelation, it is for certain that she presents the idea of a secret rapture.  It is also clear what Irving understood her to mean.   She evidently thought that it was very important since she sent hand-written copies to various clergymen and Christian leaders.  Not long after receiving her hand-written copy, Irving published her revelation in The Morning Watch.  (It was also published in 1840 in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James and George Macdonald.  It was again published in 1861 by Norton in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church.)  After publishing McDonald's revelation, Irving began to publicly teach the idea of an invisible secret appearing of Christ to gather His saints, then another appearing when He brings judgment on the earth.   
               
John Nelson Darby: The Father of Dispensationalism       
             John Nelson Darby was from a prosperous Irish family, and was educated briefly as a lawyer. Darby graduated from Trinity College Dublin in 1819 at the age of eighteen. In 1825, he received ordination as deacon in the Church of England. Not long after, he accepted a parish in the county of Wicklow. He was a recognized as leader and early teacher in the beginning of the Brethren movement and throughout his ministry.  
               Although Irving was the one that first began teaching and preaching about the rapture, it was Darby who developed the Pretribulation Rapture by integrating it into his prophetic teaching of Dispensationalism.  While Irving was leaned more towards historicism, Darby taught a futurist interpretation of eschatology. However, it is certain from material that was written during that time period that Irving's doctrine affected Darby to a great degree.  
               Darby developed his dispensational theory into a solid outline, but to this day it is not easily grasped and taught by others.  Fueled by the atmosphere of millenarianism, Darby began teaching his theory on the Book of Revelation all over Great Britain. 
               Now let us examine the contribution of J.N. Darby and how he came to form the doctrine of Dispensationalism, the doctrine that eventually led to the idea of Pretribulation Rapture. Darby is called by many the "father of modern dispensational theology." As John F. Walvoord, former president of Dallas Theological Seminary, has said, "Much of the Truth promulgated by fundamental Christians today had its rebirth in the movement known as the 'Plymouth Brethren."(2)
This piece comes from Holman's Bible Dictionary:
Darby set forth the idea that God has set up seven time periods, called dispensations, for His work among human beings. The seventh, or last dispensation will be the millennial reign of Christ (Rev. 20). In each dispensation, people are tested in reference to the obedience of God's will according to a specific revelation of that will. Darby visited the United States on several occasions and won many advocates to his theology. However, C. I. Scofield popularized the dispensational system in his study Bible of 1909. He set forth seven dispensations in God's dealing with human beings.
1. Innocence (Gen. 1:28)- the period of time in the Garden of Eden.
2. Conscience (Gen. 3:23)- the awakening of human conscience and the expulsion from the garden.
3. Human Government (Gen. 8:20)- the new covenant made with Noah, bringing about human government.
4. Promise (Gen. 12:1)- the new covenant made with Abraham.
5. Law (Ex. 19:8)- the period of acceptance of the Jewish law.
6. Grace (John 1:17)- begins with the death and resurrection of Jesus.
7. Kingdom (Eph. 1:10)- constitutes the final rule of Christ.
Program of Eschatology
Beyond the seven dispensations, the Darby movement had a definite program of eschatology in five steps.
1. A two-stage coming of Christ: rapture and parousia.
2. Seven years of tribulation on earth for those not raptured: The last three-and-a-half years will be the time of the Antichrist. One hundred forty-four thousand Jews will accept Christ and become evangelists.
3. Christ's return with the church, the conclusion of the Battle of Armageddon, and the rule of Christ and the church for a thousand years.
4. Belief in an unconditional covenant with Israel: Thus, God is working through Israel and the Church. In the millennium, the nation of Israel will be restored.
5. The literal fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.
Some of the more popular advocates of dispensationalism have been C. H. MacKintosh, W. E. Blackstone, H. A. Ironside, and A. C. Gaebelein. More recently, Hal Lindsey has made the system a best seller in his book The Late Great Planet Earth. The Book of Revelation has become a key book in the dispensational approach. Dispensationalists see the rapture taking place in Revelation 4:1, the rest of the book (chs. 4-18) dealing with the seven years of tribulation. Thus, the book has very little significance for Christians who will not be on earth during that time. (3)  
            The Brethren movement began in Dublin about 1825, during the rise of millenarianism. A small group of men became dissatisfied with what they considered apostate conditions in the established churches. They began to meet for prayer and fellowship, and others soon joined the fellowship, causing associated groups to spring up everywhere. Though the movement had its beginning at Dublin, it was Plymouth, England that became the center of their vast literature outreach. Henceforth, the name Plymouth Brethren became the name of the movement. Early leaders of the Brethren movement had many differences and divisions among themselves in the early days and ever after.
            Darby is presented by men such as Larry Crutchfield as being a gentle, kind, individual who was incredibly spiritual and devoted to the Scriptures.
“Darby was kind and humble in nature, and his compassion and generosity towards the poor was without bounds." (4)  
            However, this does not appear to be exactly true. In fact, many of Crutchfield's comments about the nature of Darby do not align with the historical facts. Crutchfield quotes from Earnest Sandeen, yet seems to ignore what Sandeen writes about Darby's nature. It is not my intent to demonize either Darby or Scofield, but to let the facts speak for themselves. Sandeen writes this:
"Perhaps he should be described as a petty tyrant, for he was most tyrannical about petty things. Unlike Wesley, he often demonstrated as much zeal in destroying the work of his own building, as he did in its first construction." (5)  
            Although I have no doubt that Darby was at times kind, maybe even the majority of the time, I believe that there were many times in which he was not so kind. Someone once said, "The measure of your Christianity is not how well you get along when you agree, but how well you get along when you disagree." Those who disagreed with Darby, especially those who disagreed with his developing doctrine of Dispensationalism, were treated with extreme harshness, even to the point of viciousness. Darby ruled the Plymouth Brethren with the resolute will of an overlord. (6)  
Crutchfield writes,
"Kindly in disposition and humble in spirit though Darby was, his absolute devotion to the Word of God and demand for unflinching fidelity to its truth, as he understood it (emphasis mine), made him ready prey for controversy. His limitless patience with the honest ignorance of the poor and unlearned was legendary. But so was his wrath against those among the well educated who played fast and loose with the truth of the gospel of Christ." (7)  
            Again, this is not exactly accurate concerning Darby's disposition, unless one believes that men such as George Müller "played fast and loose with the truth of the gospel of Christ." At one point, Darby's temper flared to the extent that he excommunicated the famous George Müller and the whole Brethren congregation in Bristol. He apparently called Müller a liar and alienated him over a difference of opinion. (8)
            What caused Darby's outburst of anger toward Müller? Maybe it was Müller's statements such as the following:
"My brother, I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe (by Darby's Doctrine) did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby." (9)  
            In the words of Henry Craik and James C. Carson, two men who observed the whole affair, Darby was trying to force Dispensationalism on the Plymouth Brethren by lashing out in venomous anger at anyone who disagreed with him.  
"Oh, what a terrible thing is party spirit! Am I not justified in discarding and avoiding it? The truth is, Brethrenism as such, is broken to pieces. By pretending to be wiser, holier, more spiritual, more enlightened, than all other Christians; by rash and unprofitable intrusions into things not revealed; by making mysticism and eccentricity the test of spiritual life and depth; ... by grossly offensive familiarity of speaking of such sacred matters as the presence and teaching of the Holy Ghost; and by a sectarianism all the more inexcusable, that it was in the avoidance of sectarianism that Brethrenism originated; by these and similar errors, the great Scriptural principles of church communion have been marred and disfigured." (10)  
            The Bristol leaders shared neither his [Darby's] militant anti-clericalism, nor his dramatic expectations concerning the Second Advent. On the contrary, they were glad to recognize the gifts of God shown by men with whom they agreed concerning church order and position. On the second matter, despite their expectations as to the Second Advent, the intense apocalyptic note was almost entirely absent from their teaching. They certainly held the probability of the near return of Christ, but they most definitely did not make that expectation a foundation of their teaching. (11)
            Darby often clashed with fellow Plymouth Brethren, once with his friend Benjamin Wills Newton, whom he accused of trying to control the fledgling movement. Consider this account by Sandeen:
"Although there was a good deal of truth in these charges, the vindictive and violent manner in which they were brought and the persistence with which they were pursued (Newton being hounded by them until his death in 1899) create an impression that Darby was unable to tolerate rivals to his leadership. The blowup at Plymouth appears to have been inevitable once Darby discovered that he could not dominate Newton or convert him to his own theology." (12)
Sandeen also writes:
"--the ensuing turmoil almost destroyed the struggling young sect and left a legacy of bitterness which remained to blight the experience of Plymouth Brethren for generations." (13)  
            The afore mentioned article by George T. Stokes in the journal entitled Littell's Living Age presents one of the most telling exposé's of Darby's nature. Stokes' article describes the history of the Plymouth Brethren movement and gives a capsule of Darby's history.  Stokes reports that during the conflict with Newton, Darby wanted every member of the Brethren to join with him in consigning Newton to Satan.  Müller, being of more compassionate and even disposition refused to join in the fight.  Instead, Müller allowed Newton to partake in Communion for which Darby promptly separated from him.  The Brethren Movement never healed from that division.  The reason may have been because Darby refused to tolerate any disagreement from anyone.  The following is an excerpt from Stokes' article.
As for Darby, he pursued the even tenor of his way till the end came; developing, however, strangely enough ever higher and higher claims for his own party. Those who agreed with him were the Church of God upon earth. Those who disagreed with him on any point of doctrine or of discipline, he excommunicated at once, and regarded as outside the covenanted mercies of God. During the latter years of his life he lived at the Priory, Islington, which, during the decade between 1870 and 1880, was regarded by his followers as a kind of local Vatican, whence issued decrees on all topics, demanding instant and unmurmuring obedience. Why, even the very change of a meeting from one locality to another without permission was regarded as an act of carnal self-pleasing and rebellion, and punished as such. And the end of a movement for spiritual independence and in defence ,(sic) of the rights of the individual Christian conscience was a very disappointing one, for it only terminated in the establishment of a crushing and intrusive spiritual tyranny, embracing all the pretensions, but carrying with it none of the antiquity and historic glory which cast a halo round papal supremacy. (14)  
            Written only three years after Darby's death, George Stokes' article is key to understanding Darby and the origin of his eschatological belief system.  In my opinion, Darby's intense dislike for the traditional church, ministers, creeds, doctrine, and organization was a bit hypocritical.  He eventually produced the same type of religious organization that he claimed to despise, only with himself as the head.
           Only by reading the volume of material about that era can one fully understand the extent of Darby's hatred for the organized church in any form but his own.  This hatred may have been the reason he rewarded the "good" Christians in his doctrine by allowing them to skip the persecution and tribulation of the seven-year period.  Of course he consigned to hell all those people who were rebellious enough to reject his doctrine, such as George Müller.  These individuals had to suffer unspeakable horror during the seven years, accept the ultimate deception, and eventually be cast into hellfire.  There was no room in Darby's doctrine for second chances if one missed the pretribulation rapture.  The idea of second opportunities to repent and serve God came long with the non-ascetic promoters of the doctrine.
           I must say here that if there is such a thing as a spirit being transferred with a doctrine, Darby's ill-temper and iron-fisted attitude toward those who disagreed with him certainly passed on with his doctrine. There are few issues which are as likely to cause tempers to flare as quickly the timing of the Rapture. Pretribbers often resort to actions normally reserved for wicked people or those who commit vile heresies upon the Body of Christ. There has been a lot of pain inflicted on people who disagree with Pretribulation Rapture position and it is still going on today. I am not bothered by bombastic writing, but assassinating reputations and ministries with charges of slander and committing malicious activities against them is quite another thing all together. Those who have the greater guilt in these matters may be denominational leaders or perhaps the purveyors of pretribulation rapture wares.  
            It is not my intent here to cast Darby aside as a man of no significant value to God.  Instead, I want to point out that there is always a down side to being dedicated to one's theology to the point of asceticism.  The danger exists in the fact that there is a strong and compelling tendency to become inebriated by one's own spirituality.  Thus inebriated, one loses the sense of danger and subsequent warning signals that would otherwise prevent him or her from straying into extremism and even false doctrine.
            However, the greater danger is revealed when one begins to sober.  Spiritual drunkenness is a difficult state to maintain.  Eventually reality breaks through and challenges the basis of the spiritual intoxication.  Darby reacted typically to these intrusions by crushing the people, at least in his mind, that dared to quench his spiritual "high."
            The PTR doctrine produces a tremendous spiritual buzz that its adherents are addicted to.  In order to sustain the high, they must continually be fed sound bites of pretribulation rapture sensationalism.  Predictably, most pretribbers will become quite rowdy when the facts and scriptural truth is pointed out to them.  In fact, a few notable pretribbers even rival Darby in their efforts to hasten their opponents to eternal condemnation.  It is a sad and tragic repetition of history—the passing on and perpetuation of the Darby paradigm in spirit and doctrine.  
 
Darbyite Dispensationalism Invades America
            At the same time that millenarianism was invading America with an apocalyptic fervor, William Miller and Alexander Campbell were at the forefront of millenarianism, with the Millerites the largest and most influential group. However, he set a date for the Second Advent that caused many millenarians to turn against him. America was ripe for a new view with more balance and dependability.
           Darby visited the United States approximately seven times to teach and preach his doctrine of Dispensationalism. He found the condition of the American church deplorable to his taste, and held many small meetings to discuss and teach Dispensationalism with church leaders. Darby insisted that those who believed his views abandon their church and join the Plymouth Brethren. Most of Darby's converts came from Baptist and Presbyterian churches, prompting this critique of the Plymouth Brethren in the Princeton Review:
"The aim of the Brethren is to 'gather churches out of churches:' to disintegrate all existing bodies by opening a door in each, not for the exit of the faithless and false-hearted, but of the pious and the good; and, accordingly, they prowl unceasingly round all our churches, seeking to reap where they have not sown, and leaving to the denominations generally the exclusive privilege of evangelizing the masses." (20)
            The criticism appears to be founded when you read these words by Earnest Sandeen quoting from The Letters of J. N. Darby.
"Throughout his ministry in the United States, Darby had been frustrated by his inability to arouse more dissatisfaction among Americans with their denominations, and during his last few years in America he lamented like Jeremiah: 'Eminent ministers preach the Lord's coming, the ruin of the Church, liberty of ministry, and avowedly from brethren book's, and stay where they are, and there is a general deadening of conscience.' "
 
Dr. James Brooks and the Niagara Bible Conferences
            About 1864-65, J.N. Darby visited the 16th and Walnut Avenue Presbyterian Church in St. Louis, Missouri, on two occasions. This church became the principal center of Dispensationalism in America. The pastor, Dr. James H. Brooks, became one of Darby's most prominent supporter, and has been called "the father of Dispensationalism in America."
            Dr. Brooks conducted many Bible studies with the young men in his church, C. I. Scofield being his most famous student. Yet it was his involvement in the Niagara Bible Conference that would prove important to the diffusion of Dispensationalism in America. C. I. Scofield later served as head of the conference, and there birthed the idea of a study Bible that would help spread Darbyite Dispensationalism.
            The Niagara Bible Conference began as the Believer's Meeting for Bible Study, but soon turned into the main spring from whence Darbyite Dispensationalism would flow. The Niagara Bible Conference under his controlling influence became the center of millenarianism under the controlling influence of its founder, James Brookes. Scofield served as the head of the Niagara Bible Conference as well. Non-millenarians were permitted to attend the conferences, but from 1878 onward they were not permitted to speak. Most of the leading millenarians in America, as well as many Brethren ministers, attended the conferences. D. L. Moody was also an attendee, and was highly influenced by the Brethren style of preaching. Brookes made the Niagara Bible Conference the premier headquarters for Darbyite Dispensationalism by making sure that all the speakers favored the theory. With the exception of the Moody Bible Institute and later Lewis Chafer's Dallas Theological Seminary, the Niagara Bible Conference was the leading force in making PTR the accepted doctrine that it is today.
            The atmosphere of the Niagara Bible Conference was personality-driven by millenarian apocalyptic fever from the sensational views of Darby. It served to further erode the theological underpinnings of Christian eschatology and helped to replace them with revelations and speculations. The factors of probable self-importance and exciting visibility only served to give the participants a false sense of pioneering a new work of God, or as Scofield put it, "this new beginning and new testimony." It was in this enticing limelight that Scofield made his biggest steps toward prominence. He envisioned a Bible with his name on it that included his reference notes concerning Darby's pseudo-eschatology. He would have to break a time-honored policy of all the popular Bible societies, whose cardinal rule had always been, "Without Note or Comment." But breaking the rules to get ahead was nothing new to Scofield, as we will see in the next section. Brazenly, he went about corrupting the Bible, shading the meaning of the Scriptures, even defying some of them, and ignoring the curse upon those who commit such accursed deeds.
"For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; {19} and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18-19 NKJV)
The result was the notorious Scofield Reference Bible, its successive revisions continually plaguing Christianity to this day.
 
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield
            The Scofield Reference Bible is widely referred to as the Bible that validated and promoted Dispensationalism to the infamous stature that it enjoys today in the professing Church. Millions of Christians have either wittingly or unwittingly developed their eschatology from reading Scofield's reference notes. His successor, Lewis Sperry Chafer, founded the Dallas Theological Seminary, which has, in turn, trained thousands of ministers in the false doctrine of Dispensationalism and unleashed them on unsuspecting American congregations.
            Who is C. I. Scofield, and how does his life compare to Joseph Smith and other men who purport to having received dubious gnosis from God? Cyrus Ingerson Scofield was a man with a keen, analytical mind and an above average intelligence. In my opinion, from all the information that I have read about him, he was a very personable, highly charismatic individual who made friends easily, especially friends in high places. This explains how he could be admitted to the Lotus Club in New York, which was restricted to "a social intercourse between journalists, artists, musicians, friends of literature, science, fine arts, etc."
            He was admitted into this club by notorious criminal lawyer Samuel Untermeier, although Scofield had no credentials for enlistment. This also explains how he could be elected twice to the Kansas legislature (1871 and 1872) with the help of some powerful men. President Grant appointed him as the United States District Attorney of Kansas on June 9, 1873. He affirmed in the oath of office that he had never voluntarily born arms against the United States, although he had fought in the Confederate Army. He resigned six months later on December 20, 1873, amid charges and counter-charges of political corruption. He and a friend were charged with trying to blackmail the railroads out of a significant sum of money. Thus, Scofield's political career ended there.
            Scofield's biographer, Turnbull, skips over the period of 1873 to 1879, the time in which Scofield was involved in the worst of his shenanigans, with nothing more than a casual reference to Scofield's habit of alcohol consumption. However, if Joseph Canfield is correct in his information, Scofield appeared to be nothing more than a highly-skilled con man who had allegedly defrauded a number of his friends and fellow Christians, not to mention his mother-in-law, whom he supposedly swindled out of her life savings of $1300.00, quite a sum in those days. One of his financial scams was so serious that he was convicted of forgery and sentenced to 6 months in the St. Louis, Missouri, jail. In addition, he abandoned his wife and family,  He never supported his children or maintained close contact with them.
            During this period, he also had open relationships with other women while still married to his first wife. Scofield was in love, or rather in lust, with two other women, and dated both of them at the same time. When his wife finally divorced him because of his lifestyle, he married a woman by the name of Helen Van Wark, with whom he was living with adulterously. He had a egregious life that impugned the name of Christ, according to Joseph Canfield in his book, The Incredible Scofield. (21)   I consider Canfield's book to be a true biography of Scofield.
            Scofield assumed all sorts of phony credentials, from that of a minister to that of a Bible scholar to that of a lawyer. He presented himself as a lawyer, though he was not admitted to the bar until long afterwards when his friends in Kansas used their influence to gain him admittance. In the same manner, he gave himself a theological doctorate degree, though he had never attended any school and had no formal training whatsoever. Amazingly, some Christians still call Scofield "Dr. Scofield" with the knowledge that he never attended a college or university.   In spite of the facts, not one supporter of Scofield that I know of has admitted that he conferred a doctorate on himself.
            He reportedly was converted again in September of 1879, even though he had been a professing Christian before that date. In my opinion, this second act of conversion was to "wipe out" all his past indiscretions should they ever become a public embarrassment. He pastored various churches, including a Congregational mission church in Dallas, Texas, and the Trinitarian Congregational Church in Northfield, Massachusetts, D. L. Moody's home church. He spent nearly a year in Switzerland in research, but was back in Dallas in 1905. Scofield acted as an absent pastor, continuing research on his bible with another trip to Europe. (22) He seemed to ascend up the religious success ladder in much the same manner and speed that he navigated the secular ladder of success, i.e., bypassing all the necessary steps along the way.
            In 1901, Scofield was attending one of the Niagara Bible Conferences. Although these conferences began with good intentions as the Believers Meeting for Bible Study, under the guidance of men such as Dr. James Brooks, they eventually turned into a instrument of studying and disseminating J. N. Darby's dispensational theories. The complicated structure of Dispensationalism gave Scofield the idea of putting together a reference Bible that would help people understand it. In other words, not many would have grasped the doctrine of Dispensationalism without a great deal of prompting through references and notes inserted at key Scriptures. The same is true of Dispensationalism today. In an advertisement for his books, famous dispensationalist proponent Dr. Tim LayHaye writes,
"The Rapture is the first phase of the Christ's second coming. It is that moment when, as the apostle Paul said, "The Lord himself shall descend with a shout....The dead in Christ will rise first then we, who are alive and remain, will be 'caught up' (raptured) with them to meet the Lord in the air--and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thessalonians 4:16-17). It is the same experience he describes in First Corinthians 15:51 as the moment Christians are "changed" from "mortal" to "immortal". This is expected by most Christians to occur before the seven years of Tribulation described in Revelation, chapters 6-19. For more reading on this subject, there are a number of books you can read to help you understand this difficult subject:" (23)    
            Dr. LaHaye writes glibly, as if the Scripture he is quoting clearly supports his interpretation. He appears to be so mesmerized by PTR that he does not even recognize that there is not even a hint of a pretribulation rapture in the Scripture reference he gives. However, he readily admits the difficulty of his doctrine and the need for extrabiblical books in order to understand (become indoctrinated by) it.  By the way, all the books Dr. LaHaye contributed to in the Left Behind series are fictional. 
            Nevertheless, it was at the Niagara Bible Conference in 1901 that Scofield confided to his friends that he intended to develop a reference Bible that would bring about "this new beginning and new testimony." Scofield noted, however, that financial backing was the main drawback. The following year, one of those friends he confided in, A. C. Gaebelein, helped him get the financial aid that that he requested. Scofield and his wife went abroad in 1904 to work on the notes for the Bible. In England, he was able to research and study first hand the any-moment coming and secret rapture doctrine of J.N. Darby in the hotbed of its beginnings.
            C. I. Scofield had become proficient in all the aspects of Darbyism. It was because of the influence of J. N Darby's Dispensationalism theory, including the any-moment half-coming and secret rapture, that he decided to put together a reference Bible that would bring Darbyite Dispensationalism to everyone in America by befuddling the minds of unsuspecting new converts. In my opinion, Darby would not have reached very far into the world with his beliefs had it not been for Scofield. Neither would Scofield's notes have attained the high acclaim that they eventually achieved if they had first been compiled as a commentary separate from the Bible. However, Scofield published his reference Bible first, then his reference notes in a separate volume later.  It was his reference Bible that won him acclaim, not his separate works.  The truth of this is in the fact that his reference Bible is still in demand today, but his separate material is not.  Scofield rode to fame and fortune on the coattails of the Holy Bible, whose true author is God who breathed through holy men.
            If Darby is called the father of Dispensationalism, Scofield was certainly its mother, since he truly birthed Dispensationalism and Pretribulation Rapture into the America through his reference Bible (more about the Scofield Reference Bible in the following chapter). Because of Scofield, Darby's teachings on Pretribulation Rapture have now become the foremost eschatological doctrine in the professing Church concerning the coming of the Lord.   However, most pretrib adherents have never heard of Darby.
            Without a doubt, Scofield went to work on his reference Bible for the sole purpose of spreading Darby's doctrine. His indoctrination with Darby's Dispensationalism through Dr. James Brooks and his involvement in the Niagara Bible Conferences over the years filled him with fascination for Darby's unique bend on the Scriptures. It is illogical to conclude that he had any other reason for putting together the Scofield reference Bible. Sandeen writes this:
"At any rate it is clear that the Scofield Reference Bible was uncompromisingly Darbyite dispensationalist in doctrine and taught the any-moment coming and the secret rapture of the church. Although he consulted post-tribulationist scholars, their views about the time of the advent were not reflected in his work.
Scofield wrote in the preface to the Reference Bible, "The editor disclaims originality." This apology was also his boast. To be original was not the mark of a good millenarian exegesis. But Scofield also meant to acknowledge that he had done very little more than put his predecessor's work into a most ingenious and assimilable form. Scofield never demonstrated great ability as a biblical scholar, apologist, or organizer, but in the calendar of Fundamentalist saints no name is better known or more revered." (24)
            The Scofield Reference Bible was finally published in 1909. Many ministers of the 1920's and 1930's began preaching Darby's Dispensationalism, yet these men could not have received their information from Darby himself. In Scofield's own words, a "new testimony" had indeed come to America; but it was not a testimony of truth. Although Dispensationalism and Pretribulation Rapture have become commonly accepted as true doctrine, they were unheard of in the Church for almost 1900 years before John Nelson Darby and in America until Cyrus Ingerson Scofield published his reference Bible.
            Forty years after the publication of Scofield's reference Bible, the New and Improved Edition of the reference Bible came along. One of the men who sat on the revision committee was none other than John F. Walvoord. John Walvoord is today called the "dean of the Pretribulation Rapture movement." The chronology is as follows: Darby to Scofield; Scofield to Chafer; Chafer to Dallas Theological Seminary; and John Walvrood to all of America's pretribulation rapture proponents.
            Because of Scofield, J. N. Darby's idea of God's two separate purposes in history has risen to a place of common acceptance among the Bible-believing movement in America (then centered in Fundamentalism) within a century of its origin. Some have declared the Scofield Reference Bible to be the leading cause for the fall of American civilization because of its presentation of an antinomianism that rejects the moral law of God as the standard for living today. Also, some claim that the church is weak, ineffective, and failing because of the hope in the coming of Christ for His own rather than in a victorious church. I call it simply the continuation of Darby's heresy with a new twist on Calvin's Perseverance of the Saints. There are others who view Scofield as a drunkard, a liar, an adulterer, and a perjurer who took up preaching as an easy way to fortune and fame. In my opinion, this would be the easy way out. 
            We could simply demonize the man and be done with him and his doctrine. However, whether he was truly saved or not is not the point, because his doctrine is still as false in any case. I view Scofield simply as a man who had his own motives for what he did, and I personally do not believe that these motives were inspired by God. In my opinion, he was motivated to a great degree by the need to be somebody, and saw an opportunity to bring something new into the Church, thereby making a name for himself. He seemed to crave attention and honor, as is evidenced by the act of his conferring a doctorate on himself when he had no formal theological training.
            If you read Scofield's notes carefully, the references that he uses are very weak and even blatantly false, at times. A disrespect or lack of understanding of correct biblical hermeneutics surfaces throughout the Scofield Reference Bible. A reliable assumption is that he probably did not get Dispensationalism and its tainted fruit, Pretribulation Rapture, from the Holy Spirit while studying the Word of God. There is no doubt in my mind that he received it from men. Consequently, Pretribulation Rapture it is now thought by the majority of fundamentalist to be Biblical truth clearly supported by the Scripture, although it was non-existent in the Church for almost 1900 years. What a contrast to the words of Paul, who said,
"But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. {12} For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ." (Gal. 1:11-12 NKJV)  
Lewis Sperry Chafer
            On the heels of Scofield came Lewis Sperry Chafer, who was also an unaccredited, self-appointed theologian. Chafer is quoted as having said:
"The very fact that I did not study a prescribed course in theology made it possible for me to approach the subject with an unprejudiced mind to be concerned only with what the Bible was actually teaching." (25)
            Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952) was a student and ardent admirer of Scofield to the end. In 1924, Chafer founded the Dallas Theological Seminary, Dispensationalism's first claim to theological validity. Although Chafer expressed disdain and scorn for established, time-honored theology, he went about to establish a theological school in stark contrast to his statements. He produced the eight volume Systematic Theology, which included Darbyite Dispensationalism, through the reference notes of C. I Scofield. Bernard Ramm makes a fascinating comparison of Chafer's credentials to Karl Barth, one of the men Chafer scorned. The following is a compilation of this comparison:
" Chafer spent three years at Oberlin College and then left to teach in a school for boys that D. L. Moody had founded. That was the sum total of Chafer's formal education.
" Barth studied in the universities of Bern, Marberg, Berl
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby purple7 on Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:21 pm

I don't know if this has been posted yet, I didn't have a chance to read through all the previous posts.

1 Cor. 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When is the last trump? We need to look in Revelation 11:15
John sees this right after the two witnesses ascend into heaven and the great earthquake. But at this time there is still one woe left also.
Anyway just a tidbit of info I wanted to pass on, hope it helps someone dig a bit deeper.
purple7
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:19 am

Postby crmann on Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:29 pm

1 Cor. 15:51-52
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Hello, Purple7...

The pretrib believers deny that the last trump in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 is the same mentioned as the seventh trumpet in Revelation 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He to His servants the prophets, and in Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become [the kingdom] of out Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So, Purple7, when you wrote:
When is the last trump? We need to look in Revelation 11:15 John sees this right after the two witnesses ascend into heaven and the great earthquake. But at this time there is still one woe left.


I think you are correct.

Blessings, P7,

The Old Timer
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby Sue-M on Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:45 pm

I just saw this thread. Cleveland, you are my best friend for doing this! :yourock: I stand next to you in support. I'm still reading all that has been posted. But, I will add some stuff myself (If there is anything else to add. You've got a lot of scripture here already). This is such a great job!!!!!!




Wickus wrote:I am not a pre-trib, but there is some verses that indicates that we might be raptured before the Great Tribulation (3.5 Years)

Luk 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is usually the pre-trib's greatests arguments. Any views on that?


Wickus

In Luke 21:36, the escaping is not a "catching away" (rapture) from the earth, it means just what it says, to escape. I see this as God telling us to pray that we will be protected through what is coming and that we will come through it with our faith, so that we can stand before our Lord.

In Revelation 3:10, this does not say anything about a rapture. These people who are "kept" from the hour of trial have simply passed away.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
Sue-M
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am

Postby crmann on Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:55 pm

Thanks, Sue-M...

I look forward to anything you might add.

Luke 21:36 But watch ye at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

Only the pre trib folk would read this as being taken out of. To escape means what it says. God will somehow protect us and help us escape the wrath to come.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Did He not protect the Israelites from the ten plagues He sent upon the Egyptians?

Blessings, Sue-M
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Postby Sue-M on Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:09 pm

The entire Book of Daniel 7

-----------------------------

Daniel 7

Daniel's Dream of Four Beasts

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.

2 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.

3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.

5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!'

6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

7 "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8 "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.

10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.

12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The Interpretation of the Dream

15 "I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me.

16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this.
"So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things:

17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.

18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.'

19 "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left.

20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.


23 "He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.

24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. [a]

26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'

28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself."

--------------------

In verse 8 the Anti-Christ comes to power. Verse 9 and 10, God takes his seat and the books are opened. Verse 11, the Beast (Anti-Christ) is thrown into the lake of fire. We know that this is at the very end of the Trib.

When you read the explanation given to Daniel about this vision (verse 15 on), we see everything explained in order. If you read the parts that I highlighted, you can see that we are still here through the entire Tribulation up until when the Lord comes back and throws the Beast into the lake of fire. There is no mention of a rapture.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
Sue-M
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am

Postby Sue-M on Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:23 pm

John 17:15

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.



I didn't notice that anyone posted this one. If it's been posted, sorry. It's worth repeating.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
Sue-M
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am

the last trump

Postby hoshianna on Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:35 pm

Those are all very nice long posts, I'm sure.

The "last trump" of 1 cor 15:52 is wrongly interpreted to be the "seventh" of rev 10:7;11:15. This is just not the case.

Let's defer to the author of 1 cor, Paul, for what he meant by the "last trump" of 1 cor 15:52.
1Th 4:16 RV For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

It's the trump of God; its not just one of the seven trumpets. You might pointlessly argue why did he say "last?" Well, because God called a solemn assembly to himself, to his very presence, before. That is what the pretrib rapture is, Jesus Christ calling the saints to himself, to his very presence, for a solemn assembly; to stand before the Son of man.
Here are the passages about the previous time the trump of God was used.
Heb 12:18-21 RV For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, (19) and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them: (20) for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; (21) and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Exo 19:16 RV And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a trumpet exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.
But we agree on one point, there will be no secret rapture. They will lie about it but it can not be a secret.

sue-m, if what crmann posted made him your bestfriend, I hope this doesn't make me your archenemy. I see everyone here as siblings just having a good hearty discussion about what time the parent said he'll pick us up.

peace & God bless
Last edited by hoshianna on Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
hoshianna
 
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:52 am

Postby Sue-M on Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:42 pm

Luke 17:22-

22 Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it.

23 Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them.

24 For the Son of Man in his day[c] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.

27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.

29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

31 On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything.

32 Remember Lot's wife!

33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.

35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."[d]

[d] = Some manuscripts left. 36 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

37"Where, Lord?" they asked.
He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

---------------------

Verse 22 & 23, Jesus says that the days are coming when we will long to see Jesus, but WE WILL NOT SEE HIM. Jesus went further in Verse 23 to tell us that even if we hear that He has returned, WE ARE NOT TO BELIEVE IT.

Jesus tells us not to believe in a rapture, friends. Suppose that there is a rapture. Is Jesus telling people after the "rapture" to not believe it? No! Jesus is telling us, today, to not believe in a rapture, even if we hear that it has happened. IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

In Verse 24 Jesus tells us that when He returns, it will be a huge event that will light up the sky.

Jesus then says that it will be just like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. No one was raptured then. So, if it's just like those days.......
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
Sue-M
 
Posts: 1805
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am

Next

Return to Post-trib view only

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest