Anyone thinking of an underground shelter for trib?

No opposing arguments allowed

Postby Ragnarok on Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:47 am

THAT is one of the best things you can do Candy.

Part of "come out of her my people", I believe...
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:12 am

:sheep:

As my little sheep portrays the sheep must watch the shepherd and go where he leads. Buying land in the rockies, or anywhere will still be in the beast system, as the poster is right, property taxes, and the many means of surveilance that is out there. I mean satellites, etc
Where you could be and not be found on this earth seems to be a fleeting place now that we are aware of all of this technology.
I remember back in 1999, this guy who was saying that nucs and other things would hit the west coast and the east coasts at the same time, believe it or not on Sept 11, 1999. Now I do remember he did not say he was a prophet so to speak but based on his reckonings of something.
And then again for Y2K, a whole lot of people here around Tacoma, who were in this particular group, which I kinda visited but was not a part of, anyway, they were making plans to sell their homes and all and move off the mountains or somewhere.
At the time, I prayed and did not feel led to do a thing, except not be in that group. Not that there did not seem to be some good folks there for sure.
Anyway there is a clear line of going by our thinking, remember our thoughts are not his thoughts as the scripture says.
I do believe that we do have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, as Jesus told his disciples. And if the time comes that he wants us to move out somewhere from where we are, He will make it very clear to us.
I can assure you that many believers since Jesus was risen have suffered tribulation, but not one and not one ever will suffer the wrath of God.
We have been saved from our sin, and we certainly have been saved from the wrath of God to come.
The scripture is clear abou that one.
So I am not sure how God will do this and I do not have to be at this point, I do not believe in the pretrib rapture, but I do know that I have not been appointed to suffer the wrath of God.
If called upon to be arrested for professing Christ, and brought before Kings or anywhere else, I need only rely on the Holy Spirit of God to give me the words to say.
The scripture is clear on this also, we are not to prepare or worry about what we will say if this comes upon us.
In prayerful respect to all opinions. And Love in Jesus Christ.
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Postby joyfulchild on Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:10 pm

:grin: I have felt REALLY led and we are moving at the end of nest year to the country.Bought 100 acres and today ITS OURS!!It certainly isnt disappearing but its pretty close!I am thrilled at what the Lord has provided!
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:06 am

100 acres, well now I have a place maybe I can run to in Australia. We do not know for sure, seems a lot of Christians went underground in Cappadocia, just saw that on the history channel. It was amazing what they built. I will have to find a posting about it. It went down and down and down for many stories, this was when the mulsims were after them.

I do know that God will make things clearer as we approach, and may tell us different things. If you have children, it may be different. Since my daughter is grown and it is just my husband and me, just going on and leaving this flesh for now may be ok. I have a 53 years, and they have been pretty tough ones at times. So like I said this may be a real individual thing for each believer.

And who knows, we may not be here at the time things happen, as no one is guaranteed tomorrow.
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Postby joyfulchild on Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:37 am

:hugs: You and yours are definitely welcome.
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Postby proparent on Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:45 am

We're in the process right now being led out of the Cities and into a rural area. Our house has sold, and closing is on the 10th of August. (That in itself is a miracle!) We have no place yet to go to live except our tiny little A-frame cabin with an outhouse and no well on the property! But I know the Lord will lead us in the weeks ahead. He has so obviously called us out, I know He will take us to the next place, where ever it is. His hand is on us.

Love, In Christ,
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preparation

Postby Adamantine on Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:46 pm

It is very possible that this is not the 7 year treaty. We can all wonder why God would let something so similar occurhowever.

In anycase I suspect very few even on this web site have actually done ANY preparation. Most people are sheep and will not act without multiple leader types telling them to do so.

In the meantime the leaders are saying there is a pretrib rapture for sure.
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Re: preparation

Postby mela on Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:03 pm

Adamantine wrote:It is very possible that this is not the 7 year treaty. We can all wonder why God would let something so similar occurhowever.

In anycase I suspect very few even on this web site have actually done ANY preparation. Most people are sheep and will not act without multiple leader types telling them to do so.

In the meantime the leaders are saying there is a pretrib rapture for sure.

Adamantine,...
I am unclear as to why you say that you suspect very few on this web site have actually done ANY preparation. I have read many posts where people are discussing what they feel they are led to do in 'preparation'
I would like to add that yes, I am a sheep (not asleep) and I know who my Shepherd is and I look to no one else telling me what to do :a2:
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Postby jesusistheway on Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:32 am

Although I was raised Catholic and not a serious Christian. I always looked at the world as an evil place and could not understand why people were so hateful to each other. I also knew (could not tell you how back then) that everything was going to be OK. Then, last year I gave my life to Jesus. Now I know how I knew that everything was going to be OK. Jesus is our Savior, He is our shield, our light in the darkness. When I first came to this site I too thought about preparations for shelter and food. Then I looked around the area in which I moved to 3 years ago and we have one neighbor who has a large garden which most of us help tend to since Karl is over 80 years old. Another has started raising cattle and sheep for milk and meat. God put me and my family in a place that is surrounded by mountains and deer and walnut trees and fresh water springs. But all of that is not all that if you know what I mean. Spend time preparing your family without panicking your kids. Just tell them that God loves them and what He has prepared for us. Kids are smart. When the time comes they will remember. If the Satans hord should come to your door fight them and make sure your children hear you proclaim your faith and love for Jesus and die with the knowledge that God protects his faithful no matter how imperfect we are. Your children will follow because they know you love them and this love comes from God. I am sorry that I do know a verse to quote but reading is not my strongest skill and my memory is worse. May God bless us all.
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Postby mela on Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:10 pm

:welcome: jesusistheway! So happy you are here!!!
I to feel very blessed to live where I live! I believe God has brought my family to where we are for His good purpose and glory, I just feel it deep in my spirit and I am thankful to Him. My children are grown and out of the house, but they know where to come to when 'things go south'!
Hope to see much more of you here :a2:
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Postby jesusistheway on Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:59 pm

Thank you for the welcome, Mela. This site is exactly what I have been searching for my whole life (even though I did not know it). It has driven me to know God's word and to change the way that I live (although that has been the hardest part).Sin is so entangled in peoples lives they don't even realize it. I think the hardest part I am having is persuading my wife and children. I feel that time is growing short and I sometimes get stuck arguing when I should be talking about the love that God has for us and what Jesus means to our salvation. It is frustrating at times. I pray every day that they will see and believe. Sorry to mire you down. Just was thinking about it when I read your reply. Thank you again and God bless you.
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Postby mela on Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:14 pm

Oh jesusistheway, we are all sinners! We all fall short of the Glory of God! I do not think we need to " persuade " people. What matters IMHO is saying to them what we know to be the Truth and leave it up to God. We need to plant seeds and let God water them. Please do not be frustrated in your sowing of seeds! The Harvest is the Lords :a3:
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Postby jesusistheway on Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:46 am

Thank you, Mela. People like you are why I love this site. Your words help a lot. Hope the weather is nice out there in Cali. See ya around someday. :banana:
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Postby mela on Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:43 pm

jesusistheway...I believe The Almighty brought you here to FP as I believe He brought me here as well. I have learned so much here and I KNOW that this site keeps me focused on HIM! I now search Scripture with ' new eyes ' :grin: The insights and opinions here create an un-satisfied appetite in me to study more! I think of Dan.12:4 " ...Many will go here and there to increase knowledge ". Do not grow weary friend, God is in control!!!
I will be praying for your wife and children
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The weather here, where I live is lovely! Almost feel guilty :mrgreen: , but I won't because IMHO, guilt and shame have Satan's approval!!!
Please join us in all the forums and threads...intimidation might just get "S's" approval as well :angel:
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Postby joyfulchild on Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:38 am

Well has anyone found online a SIMPLE way to construct an underground shelter??More and more I am thinking we may need such an option.
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Postby Sherree on Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:00 am

Can't seem to find anything that we can afford. We would have to have someone do the work for us, and that would "blow our cover". Our Lord has a plan just for us, so we are trusting Him. :grin:
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Postby joyfulchild on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:53 pm

:grin: Hey Sheree

How bout an underground wine cellar??People here in Australia have them put in all the time.They arrive precast with the stairs.You just have to have had the hole dug.Of course it depends just how far you want the secrecy.I havent got all that worked out.Its hard isnt it.Am still just at the thinking about it stage.We need to find a way to do it ourselves I agree.If I find anything will post it here.
Kind regards
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Postby joyfulchild on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:58 pm

How bout this at Walton feed??

http://waltonfeed.com/old/cellar4.html

Construction methods:
Dugout: The cheapest way to go in stable soil
Wood construction: Be sure to use pressure treated wood.
Cement
Floors
Dirt: the simplest way to go and excellent for humidity control.
Gravel: In a very damp or very dry area you will want to put down three inches of gravel. If your cellar is unusually wet, you may want to even dig a sump in the middle of your cellar floor and fill this with gravel, along with the three inches on the floor. In very dry soil conditions you can sprinkle water on the gravel which will greatly increase the evaporation surface area.
Wood: put gaps in your boards for a higher humidity cellar.
Cement: If you want a storage area that is lower in humidity, this is a good way to go.
You may wish to build two rooms in your cellar. One with a cement floor for lower humidity storage items, and another room with no floor for higher humidity storage items. If you did this, the wall between the rooms should be as air tight as you can make it. If you have a venting system, you should have a separate set of vents for each room. And lastly, the high humidity storage area should be the far room in the cellar.
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Postby joyfulchild on Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:59 pm

The above OF COURSE is NOT a Fall Out OR Blast proof shelter.Just a hidey hole :grin: OK??
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Postby joyfulchild on Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:02 pm

:( ALSO read THIS about Concrete Shelters-I agree this is costly.Here in Aust we have NO ONE making the fancy shelters anyway!We have to rely on alternatives.

http://www.bomb-shelter.net/concrete-shelter-dangers

Concrete Shelter Dangers
Underground Shelter Buyers Warned of Concrete Shelter Dangers
Underground Shelter Buyers Warned of Concrete Shelter Dangers

Download this press release as an Adobe PDF document.




Radius Engineering president and chief engineer Walton McCarthy warns that concrete underground shelters are too dangerous to use in a serious emergency. Concrete shelter walls contain a tremendous amount of water, making the shelter interiors wet, moldy and dark. Unless the shelter ceiling is 36 inches thick the concrete shelter is useless protecting against nuclear weapon blasts. Concrete is not a viable material to protect shelterists from storms and nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

In the 28 years since Walton McCarthy founded Radius Engineering to build underground bomb shelters, he's learned the right and wrong ways to protect shelterists. As Americans are buying both underground storm and blast shelters, McCarthy warns that shelters made of concrete may do shelterists much more harm than good.

But building your own shelter makes as much sense a building your own car.


Radius started building shelters in 1978. The company began with concrete shelters in compliance with government specifications. After numerous problems, Radius abandoned concrete in favor of fiberglass. Fiberglass is stronger, cleaner, brighter and safer than concrete.

McCarthy warns that concrete walls soak up water and are prone to cracks that leak. Underground shelter walls are under much more pressure than the average household basement, and are deeper under the water table. Water inside a shelter will disable life support systems. It corrodes the steel supports in a concrete shelter, limiting the shelter’s lifespan.

Fiberglass shelters are watertight structures just like boats. Radius fiberglass structures have a 300 year lifespan.

Concrete surfaces are porous, rough and pocketed, a combination that is great for mold growth. Radius fiberglass shelters have solid, smooth surfaces just like a countertop. Their non-porous material can be cleaned with common cleaning solutions and chlorine.

Concrete walls will always make the shelter feel extremely damp because the walls hold massive amounts of moisture. Radius fiberglass shelters are made of an inert fiberglass material that do not hold moisture and form a complete vapor barrier.

Shelterists buying concrete for protection from weapons of mass destruction -– especially nuclear blast protection -- should know that the ceiling of any shelter should have a gamma protection factor of at least 512. With a reference dose of 13,000 rems gamma, the inside shelter dose is 25 rems (13,000/512). To protect human occupants the concrete shelter ceiling must be 12 inches thick with 39 inches of earth cover, or the concrete itself must be 36 solid inches.

Radius fiberglass shelters achieve this level of protection with much less material. The Radius shelters have an earth protection factor of 65,536 (inside shelter dose of 0.2 rems) to 262,144 with an inside shelter gamma radiation dose of 0.05 rems.

A nuclear blast would likely create EMP, or what is known as an electromagnetic pulse. The high intensity energy collects on concrete shelters in the embedded steel reinforcing bars. EMP itself is used as a weapon as it produces damaging current and voltage surges. Radius shelters are made of structural fiberglass and so do not collect EMP.

Concrete surfaces are usually rough. While concrete walls can be painted white, the concrete itself absorbs light, making it hard to get the shelter bright enough to easily read or do enjoyable, distracting activities.

Radius fiberglass structures have a solid, white, non-porous smoothness that reflects light and makes the shelter rooms brighter. Concrete shelters are dark and moist, an environment that takes a toll on the occupants. Radius shelters protect both physical and psychological health.

The hatch at ground level to enter the concrete structure is critical and hard to make air or bug tight. When the hatch is connected to the concrete structure it should have a seismic joint to allow difference in ground movement between the hatch at ground level and the shelter, which is perhaps 15 feet deep.

The Radius shelters use a gasketed seismic joint between the shelter and the hatch at ground level. Radius shelter hatches are impervious to air, water, bugs, dirt, fire and explosions (up to two 1-megaton blasts).

Concrete shelters are permanent and cannot be moved. They therefore require a building permit. Radius shelters have no foundation and therefore re-deployable. Radius shelters do not require a building permit.

Concrete shelters have no re-sale or market value. Radius shelters are a commercially re-deployable product. Radius shelters have a commercial value and can be re-installed in another location.

When a concrete shelter is being constructed, there is an open hole for a number of weeks making it dangerous for children. The Radius structural fiberglass shelters are installed in one or two days. Radius shelters are installed and assembled on site, not constructed on site.

McCarthy acknowledges that many people are forced to build their own shelters due to the cost of a commercial shelter. "But building your own shelter," he says," makes as much sense a building your own car. It can be done and it may be cheaper, but you may not have a working 'Shelter System' with an air filtration system, method of venting heat, water tank, plumbing system, septic system, food storage."

Most of all, concrete shelters might not provide the intended protection against nuclear, biological or chemical weapons, or from the wind and water of hurricanes and tornadoes.


"In considering your family’s safety," McCarthy said, "concrete is not a viable shelter system material. Only fiberglass provides the shetlerist with a warm, dry place that is impervious to storms and to nuclear, biological and chemical weapons."



Well this does not leave one with a lot of options does it??
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Postby joyfulchild on Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:07 pm

OK now here is a typical price for those of you interested-

http://www.bomb-shelter.net/p6-bomb-shelter-prices

You guys are lucky that you at least have this option.The best we have here is that we get an underground wine cellar MADE OF CONCRETE and NOT SECURE.

You can see why I am on the search!
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Postby joyfulchild on Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:58 am

:feedback: :grin: :grin:
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Postby Sherree on Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:10 am

Wow, you have been doing some research!

Sorry that it's taken me so long to get back with you. Yesterday and today, every time I would try to get on the board, it would give me a critical error message. I finally gave up. Plus, Cary and I have been so busy getting everything ready for our son's wedding Saturday!

I really don't have time to read all the links right now. Will get back to them later. Cary also has done some research on this, and has found a small, cheap fallout shelter. It would only be large enough to get someone past the initial blast, though. Certainly wouldn't be large enough to stay in for any length of time. That's not exactly what we were looking for! :a2:
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Postby Watching & waiting on Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:48 am

http://www.f-5stormshelters.com/fallout.htm This is a good product and not too expensive... also to build your own fallout shelter...here is a great site on how to survive a nuclear blast & fallout http://www.oism.org/nwss/
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Postby revelation2012 on Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:11 pm

I am not preparing anything except my soul. I have a small amount of gold and silver to pay/bribe for passage but I am lifting my face and heart to the Lord our God. I will hold my last crumb up to the heavens and give thanks.

The only thing I am preparing is anyone who will hear to prepare themselves spiritually. I do not think anyone can prepare anything except what is inside them. It will be our faith in the Father and Lamb who shed his blood for us that will provide. I will await for any specific instruction he may offer.
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A better option

Postby ThomasDGW on Fri May 09, 2008 6:55 pm

For the Great Tribulation, the scriptures are clear that the elect are to flee, those in Judea to the mountains, NOT go underground.

Isaiah 33:1 leads me to conclude that the U.S. will suffer a serious attack before we get to the Great Tribulation. Think of anything that the U.S. has done to another country, that has never happened to the U.S. God is promising here that it will come. My estimate is that it will come when the U.S. turns its back on Israel in a final way. Underground shelters might be appropriate for something like that, if one knew when it would occur. Unless one continually lives in the underground shelter, one might be caught outside and away from it and it might be in vain.

Another option might be to move out into this big world and minister in a needy area away from the coming retribution. I believe that response is more in line with God's plan in Bible history. Often, God's people moved out according to God's will in response to tribulation. A wiser response seems to me to be to move out in anticipation of the tribulation. I have already done this, and have lived in Bolivia for the past ten years, without missionary support from the U.S. I was here before for a year as a short-term missionary. There is a huge amount to be done in South America and Africa. Lone missionaries here and there have been the norm in the past and have done much in getting the Gospel message out. However, there is a much greater work to do that needs the cooperative presence of God's people with experience in applying Godly principles to move into various needy places. As the U.S. and Canada become more restrictive on freedom, maybe God is nudging His people to do what David Livingstone pleaded for: not to go out as a lone ranger missionary like he did and fight the lions, but go out as groups. Do you know what they said in response? "It's too dangerous and uncivilized out there for us to do something that extreme!" Maybe God's response to that is to make the home country get a bit dangerous.

Would anyone think that they would be willing to hunker down in an underground shelter in danger of getting nuked, or live in danger of gang violence or getting mad cow disease, but also think that it is too dangerous to come to a country in Africa or South America where a sizable percentage of the population are already professing Christians. If anyone is seriously considering shelling out the shekels for one of those fascinating fiberglass shelters, please consider this other option. It might even be cheaper.
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Re: A better option

Postby GodsStudent on Mon May 12, 2008 2:31 pm

ThomasDGW wrote:Would anyone think that they would be willing to hunker down in an underground shelter in danger of getting nuked, or live in danger of gang violence or getting mad cow disease, but also think that it is too dangerous to come to a country in Africa or South America where a sizable percentage of the population are already professing Christians. If anyone is seriously considering shelling out the shekels for one of those fascinating fiberglass shelters, please consider this other option. It might even be cheaper.


I would think that it would be a good idea to move to a deserted island and learn how to live off the land.....in theory.....I think I have had that fantasy about a million times. As I see the apostacy and falling away, I want nothing more.....but there is a big problem with going to fantasy island and underground in a bunker.....if the witnesses all hunker down, who is left to fulfill our great commission? I shudder to think of what things will be like in the coming times, and as a person who clings to this life. Part of our instructions are to come up out of the world and also to remain faithful to the end.....I am not concerned about dictating my future safety in a way that conflicts with scripture. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord....and I am learning to accept the suggestion of whatever and however it comes my way...its the only way I can remain faithful.

That said, I have been making certain preparations for the coming times. I do not believe that we get so much warning so that we can sit back and watch only.....I am doing what I can, but I have cut that short of "running for safety" as I dont find that to be plausible or necessarily "safe."
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Postby ThomasDGW on Mon May 12, 2008 7:19 pm

To God's Student, I assure you that I am not in a Fantasy Island, hunkering down. I think that you completely misread my post. I am in Cochabamba, Bolivia, yes, wishing I could be out in the countryside more, but I am ministering in a church in the city, wishing I had about 20 more helpers with me, and seeing what more could be done but helpless to do anything because I am not created a one man band.

I spoke of escaping coming dangers in the U.S. That is only part of the story. It is the part that might motivate someone who is too comfortable in the U.S. to go out into the scary big world. But the goal is to do all of the unfinished work in that scary big world. To bravely entrust yourself to the care of the Lord as you await the big attack is not what the Lord wants either, I don't believe.
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Postby GodsStudent on Mon May 12, 2008 10:25 pm

Actually, Thomas, I didn't misread it. I agreed with it so much and elaborated my views on why I think that bunkers (and fantaxy island) are not practical.

I thought your post was very nice and liked the disagreement you gave for hunkering down....I was disagreeing, too....only with a different train of thought.

I have often "wished" I could be called to evangelism (somewhere else, far away, and in a more primitive and God made it beautiful setting, but I haven't been. I have a list as long as Texas of people I have "planted seeds in" here where I live, and as times get tougher, I expect that I will be right here to answer questions as they come up (hopefully). At the time I have spoken to people here, most are not necessarily receptive, .... YET. NOw, slowly but surely, people are casually dropping phone calls to ask questions or talk about things they find "strange." In the end....I'll be here.

Sorry I posted a quote from your previous post without saying what I was thinking, which was that I agreed with it. Please forgive your loving and remourseful sister. I liked your post.....
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Postby CaryC on Tue May 13, 2008 8:04 am

Hey,

First, I think we all need to understand that we have no idea how the future may effect each of us. And it may effect each of us differently just because of the nation we live in. I wouldn't dismiss either going underground or witnessing, out of hand, just because of the situation we are in today. Either alone, or with a group.

If you will consider the first 300 years of Christianity, most of the body of Christ did live underground, literally, underground. Note the catacombs of Rome. And it was during this time when there was a great move of God to bring people into the body of Christ. Even though there were a few, note a very few, who where like Paul. Avid outspoken men who preached out in the open, and then would seek the shelter of the underground, to avoid capture. Note the reason for the sign of the fish. The majority of Christians were won over to Christ by the lives of the Christians in an everyday setting. Ordinary men and women who would sing praises to God as they were being led to their deaths. There is something about that, that captures men, and causes them to seek out the reason, why.

Is that what the future holds for us? Only God knows. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh, Blessed, O very Blessed is the Name of the Lord.
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Postby ThomasDGW on Tue May 13, 2008 9:26 am

Thanks for the clarification, God's Student. I think it is just as well that I answered as I did since some others might have misunderstood as I thought you did, so I don't consider any harm done.

Cary has a good point that hiding can be in God's will, also, although specifically in the Great Tribulation the instructions are to flee, not develop a shelter near one's house. My concern is that some might miss God's perfect will by not thinking big enough. Everyone has their place, but Jesus gave the principle that if one area doesn't receive you, move on to another. Don't just sit there wishing. Your help is needed urgently in other places if you don't find reception where you are.
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Postby GodsStudent on Tue May 13, 2008 10:23 am

I agree with everything all of us said. I have heard of people who have are are in the process of building underground facilities, now that I think about it. Some claim to have already been led to such a task. Knowing that I have a disease in my body that requires serious medication and causes me much pain from doing little of nothing, its not hard for me to understand why I haven't ever felt the first inkling to do such a task....I am glad others have, as Cary is right, the time may come when that is my home....I shouldn't dismiss it.

I, personally, feel that all of us bring out our thoughts and ideas together on this board. I dont post, necessarily having thought through everything. I post what comes in the moment, as I suspect many of us do. Then, we elaborate and "teach" each other.

Its all good! Love, peace and happiness today to my entire family here at FP. May God bless each and every one of you!
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Postby CaryC on Tue May 13, 2008 2:28 pm

Hey,

Thanks for the support, people. A free exchange of ideas is a good thing, even if we all don't agree.

Thomas: Being away from the US for the last 10 years (I think that is what you said) you would not believe how apostate the "church" in the US and EU has become. If someone, and I believe we all should, try to live a Christ like life as He desires us to do, most would consider you a right wing fanatic. And I'm talking about "church" people, not the world. If we are right about the time we are living in, and the scriptures seem to indicate that apostasy will grow to Roman era times (first 300 years), then people don't want to hear/see what Christians have to say and will get to the point when doing/saying these things will be illegal, punishable by death. I'm not saying we should stop, only to be aware, that it's going to cost you.

On a slightly different track Thomas: You indicated that you believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the Lord specifically says we are to "flee". I take it you get that from the passage: "...Then let them who are in Judea flee into the mountains;...". I'm just wondering, if you are going to interpret "flee" literally here, so much so, that you suggest not building underground facilities, then why not make the literal interpretation of "...who are in Judea..." and "...into the mountains;..." as well?

I'm assuming that there are caves there and some have suggested that those in Judea flee to Petra, where homes are carved out of rock/stone/dirt. If you take this as a general instruction to all, to "flee" the place of persecution and/or under judgment, which seems to be implied in the text, then the question becomes, where to "flee" too. A place of safety is implied. In the age we are living in, it won't be to any Christian countries, because there won't be any. The whole world will be against Christ and Christians. So the idea of a place of safety may not be a literal underground shelter, but underground, as in off the grid. I think we may learn a lesson from the Chinese Christians, and the first century Christians where we develop a modern fish symbol.

Please don't think I starting a debate only want more input and am giving my view, that's all.
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To answer the OP

Postby Kathe on Wed May 14, 2008 12:27 pm

No. What has been playing through my mind lately is Jesus' prayer. When He says "Give us THIS DAY our DAILY bread" it says to me, don't worry. I have been saying this daily for the past few months and it is so true. No worries about tomorrow. After all God looks out for even the sparrows so why wouldn't He take care of me? And He has, better than I ever could. Since I've turned my daily life over to Him and not worried one whit about tomorrow things have gotten better by the day. And it has taken a huge burden off of our shoulders. And allowed us to concentrate on Him better through our day.

Unless we get a strong message from Him we will continue on this path.

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who are in Judah to flee

Postby Kathe on Wed May 14, 2008 12:40 pm

My take on this is if you are taking this literally then it is those who are in Judah who need to watch and flee. Remember back in (I think) 70 AD when the romans surrounded Jerusalem. The Christians knew that this was the time to get out and they did and were saved. The Jews were decimated because they stayed. This will be the same in the future I believe.

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Postby ThomasDGW on Thu May 15, 2008 7:26 pm

Responding to Cary, you are correct that I have been away from the U.S. for over 10 years except for a short visit in 2000. Even when I left, I was feeling the pressure on free speech, and I can tell you that it has been good to enjoy freedom of speech here in Bolivia. I am sure that I would have culture shock if I were to go back. This is not to say that things are simply wonderful here. There are different kinds of problems, but there still was a feeling of release when I got here.

Regarding fleeing from the Great Tribulation, I probably should back up and clarify that I understand that the Lord did not give specific instructions to those who will not be in Judea at the time. I firmly believe that those will receive divine guidance at the time as to what to do.

However, looking at the command to those in Judea, we can draw some solid principles. Those in Judea are to get out away from any resources they might have, even including a coat that is just a nip and tuck in and out of the house, if they happen to be on the rooftop. Running into the mountains without even a coat that would take just 15 seconds to snag requires a high level of faith. This gives us the main principle: Fleeing per Jesus' instructions is an act of faith, not the common view of escapism. Jesus is telling those in Judea not to depend on their own resources, but on His provision alone. There is no hint that people should scout in advance and lay out stashes in certain places in the mountains of Judea to soften the blow. The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 also warn that those who flee will encounter suffering, that Jesus is not promising to shield those who flee from all discomfort. For example, we should pray that the flight is not in winter time. If we were to be shielded from all discomfort, then what would be the difference?

Now, for those outside of Judea, when they somehow know that the AoD has happened and somehow know what to do, do we have any basis for acting on different principles than those that apply to those elect of Judea? I see the idea of trusting in the Lord and not in one's own resources as representing a universal principle for that event. Creating a shelter or storing up resources instead of fleeing somewhere in response to the AoD represents to me a violation of those principles.

In the case of other difficulties before the AoD, we could make a case for making some kind of provision. I just finished rereading The Hiding Place and notice how that provision of a secret room was a lifesaver for the is individuals who hid there. It would have been well to have done better preparation before the NAZI invasion.

As I said, there may be some valid role for an underground shelter, particularly under risk of a nuclear attack, and also when there is the threat of rounding up certain groups of people. However, I tried to call attention to the fact that there is another approach that many should consider, which is that perhaps God wants you to move to another area where you are needed, and thus make that shelter completely unnecessary.
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Postby CaryC on Fri May 16, 2008 6:20 am

Hey Thomas,

Thanks for your reply. Like I said, I wasn't trying to start a debate was just wondering what your thoughts were, thanks.
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Re: Anyone thinking of an underground shelter for trib?

Postby YoungLion on Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:33 pm

I admire the attitude that inspired this thread. I, too, am unwilling to go into any 'good night' without a valiant struggle. Full disclosure: I don't think we will have to. BUT! I do want to cheer us a little in saying that we do well to remember that Noah built an ark with G-d's help according to G-d's design... AND... G-d told Noah and his family to get in and He sealed the door behind them. If we are going through what will be visited upon the Earth, G-d will tell us what to do. If any one of us feels especially called to prepare in a dire and dramatic way, well... more power to you, but remember -- make some provision for the future and for your kids. We could be wrong. If you prepare, start with food and supplies first, then convert some of your investment/retirement assets to gold or silver, get a really good emergency radio, save for a rural place where you could pitch a tent if you had to, consider a weapon or two with which to defend your family, find out the financial health of your bank/credit union and get out if it before it goes bad...before a line forms that will prevent you from ever getting your money...

I could go on...

I love G-d and I trust Him...

but I lie awake over stuff like this....
A patriot is a man who protects his country from his government.
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Re: Anyone thinking of an underground shelter for trib?

Postby ThomasDGW on Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:32 pm

Let's all remember the parable of the unjust steward in Luke 16:1-13, where Jesus said that the children of light are not as wise as the children of this world. Their interests are temporal and boy do they focus on temporal things! Our interests are eternal. Are we focused on eternal things? The riches of this earth fail, even gold and silver. "Only one life, 'twill soon be past. Only what's done for Christ will last."

Let's also remember the lesson of the Israelites in Numbers 14:3, where they used the safety of their wives and children as an excuse for not obeying the Lord. The Lord can take care of our children better than we can. Let's just make sure we are ready to obey the Lord.
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Re: Anyone thinking of an underground shelter for trib?

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:35 am

Maybe God will give us all manna to eat during the GT. That would be nice.
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Re:

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:42 am

revelation2012 wrote:I am not preparing anything except my soul. I have a small amount of gold and silver to pay/bribe for passage but I am lifting my face and heart to the Lord our God. I will hold my last crumb up to the heavens and give thanks.


I take it you don't have small children.
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Re: Re:

Postby Watching & waiting on Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:38 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:
revelation2012 wrote:I am not preparing anything except my soul. I have a small amount of gold and silver to pay/bribe for passage but I am lifting my face and heart to the Lord our God. I will hold my last crumb up to the heavens and give thanks.


I take it you don't have small children.


I think that is why I feel led to prepare, because I have 3 young children. If it was just myself I really wouldn't care much. I could live out on the streets or wherever, no problem. It is definately different if you have young kids.
Isaiah 40:31 But those that hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
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Re: Anyone thinking of an underground shelter for trib?

Postby kirthril on Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:50 pm

If i may intercede. Maybe undergroud shelter wont be necessary. Depending on how you view the order and timeline of event you will see that hiding might be a little easier than you 1st belive.

I for one believe that the seals, trumpets ad bowls occur in parallel and that most if not all take place after the AC declares himself God.

One thing you have to realize is that 2 of the judgments alone lead to 1/2 of the earths 6.6 billion people dead. Leaving us ith 3.3 billion. Of those, hundreds of millions will die from the many judgements from God.

1.Thirst and starvation when the rivers/oceans turn to blood
2.Poisonings when the rivers are tainted by the meteor called wormwood
3. Coastal Cities and populations (either atlantic or pacific) completely wiped out when the burning mountain is thrown into the sea, causing a tidal wave that destroys 1/3 of earths ships..
4. We will have a mini ice age and ppl will freeze to death when the sun/stars/moon is darkened by 1/3, Expect temperatures to drop sharply.
5. The sun will be givin the power to scorch ppl with fire, surely people will die from intense UV and heat
6. Extreme food shortages. When the hail/fire/blood rain down, it will burn all the green grass and burn 1/3 of the trees. Livestock and animals will have nothing to feed since the grass is gone. They will starve and die.
7. At one point we know that all the creatures in the sea and oceans will die. Thier dead carcasses no doubt will wash ashore spreading disease.
8. On top of all this, the AC is killing and imprisoning christians, murder theft will be rampant.

All in all, more than likely out of 6.6 billion people on earth, maybe only 2billion will survive to the end. This means that during our stay, whole towns, cities, villages will be deserted or wiped out or destroyed.

We know Gods judgements wont affect us christians. But while they are occuring, we can use them to our advantage to move about, flee, gain food and water and even move into abandoned homes inside towns and suburbs that have gone to ruin. I would like to think that when the oceans turn to blood, God will still give us followers water to drink.
.............................

The truth is, the bible says, those destined to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. Those destined to die by the sword shall be killed by the sword. Meaning no matter what some of us do, we will be caught.
.............

Dear thread starter. Your first mistake if you follow through on your plan is having a company or buisness supply you with materials for your hideout or if they build it for you. Sooner or later their information and documents will fall into the hands of the forces of the AC and they will know immediately where you put your shelter. They will come for you.

Secondly those that do hide out, it is imperative to not use electricity or water hooked directly to the countries powergrid and water lines. The Gov't can easily see where electricity/water is being used and how much. They will come for you. Your own generator is going to be necessary, and it would be good to plop yourself by a water source and get water from their.

Im not trying to discourage anyone, but technology although helpful, can also be used to against you. I would recommend building a shelter yourself, buy the materials yourself, tell noone your doing it, not even the Gov't, cause one day the Gov't will turn against us and will use any info you gave them to come and find you.
.................
AS for me personally, Im planning to do whats already stated. No doubt i will be fleeing from the AC's forces, but at the same time i know they will be pummled by God's judgements. I know that cities and towns, suburbs, and rural areas will be wiped out and abandoned.

I plan on hiding out in such an abandoned area. The United States is large, but only 300million people. There is a lot of open territory out there to hide, and a lot of towns/places that will be abanonded.

This is my take, and of course this is all just pre-meditated thinking. It could change when this actually occures.
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Anyone thinking of an underground shelter for trib?

Postby bkhoward2001 on Sun May 31, 2009 6:36 pm

Throughout scripture, the Lord has expected His children to prepare BOTH spirituall (first) and also physically. I suggest others do the same. Don't be one of those who are caught off guard. Networking is going to be vital during these times. Like-minded Christians should band together.
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