Good Pre-Trib Resources

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Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby amessenger4god on Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:32 am

Those of you on here who are pre-tribbers, and others who are interested in studying more, I would encourage you to check out these resources:

250 Reasons for the Pre-Trib Rapture: http://raptureintheairnow.com/?topic=250-reasons-for-the-pre-trib-rapture

Early Church Pre-Tribbers: http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

Pre-Tribulation Truth (Debunking the Margaret MacDonald accusation further): http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/may2015/pastorbob531-3.htm

Early Pre-millennialism: http://www.ldolphin.org/premillhist.html

Revelation 12:5 - The Original Pre-Trib Proof-text: http://mydigitalseminary.com/pre-tribulational-rapture-interview-michael-svigel/

Pre-trib - The Original View of the Church: http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

Maranatha - Our Lord, Come: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0915540223/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0915540223&linkCode=as2&tag=mydigsem-20

Be blessed!
MARANATHA!
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
- John 5:24
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:36 pm

amessenger4god wrote:Revelation 12:5 - The Original Pre-Trib Proof-text: http://mydigitalseminary.com/pre-tribul ... el-svigel/


However, my persuasion to the pre-tribulational rapture came as a result of an exegesis of the symbol of the catching up of the male child in Revelation 12:5—a consideration almost entirely lost (or dismissively ignored) in the discussion of the rapture. In fact, the earliest advocates of a pre-tribulational rapture (John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, William Blackstone, H.A. Ironside, etc.) pointed to this passage as decisive exegetical evidence for a pre-seven-year rapture of the church. The problem is, of course, this is a symbolic vision that needs to be carefully interpreted and the interpretational issues are complicated and require a working knowledge of the original Greek. Also, it requires that the exegete has already concluded that Revelation is to be interpreted in a premillennial, futurist light. I argue that the symbol of the male child in Revelation 12:5 is best identified as the body of Christ, the church, and the child’s catching up to God and His throne is best identified as the catching up of the body of Christ elsewhere described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Five considerations persuaded me of this conclusion:
1.Consistency in Symbolism. The woman represents a corporate entity (Israel, see Genesis 37:9–10); the Dragon represents a corporate entity (the world system controlled by Satan, see the total of seven heads and ten horns in the series of monsters in Daniel 7:1–7) and the male child as the body of Christ would also represent a corporate entity (Christ in union with His body, the Church, see 1 Corinthians 12:12, etc.).
2.Allusion to Isaiah 66:7-8. The use of the neuter adjective arsen (male) modifying the masculine noun huios (son) and the image of Israel giving birth points careful readers back to Isaiah 66:7–8, where we read in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament): “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy (arsen). Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her children.” The image is parallel in Revelation, and John explicitly breaks the rules of Greek grammar (modifying the masculine “son” with the neuter “male”) to point us back to this passage in Isaiah 66. The child in both cases is corporate, not individual.
3.Symbolic Background of Daniel 7. I think John uses the term huios (son) in Revelation 12:5 to connect us to the vision of the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7:13–14, which is interpreted corporately as the Messiah and His saints in 7:18; 26–27. John uses the term “son” in Revelation 12:5, literally “she gave birth to a son, a male,” not the term “child,” as most translations render it. Most people miss that the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7 is interpreted by the angel corporately, which fits well with Revelation 12:5’s “male son” interpreted corporately as the body of Christ. Also, the image of the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon symbol earlier in this vision already pointed us back to Daniel 7, which seems to stand behind this vision of Revelation 12.
4.The Male Child is “Snatched Up.” The word in Revelation 12:5 is the word for “rapture,” harpazo, and always means a sudden removal, a snatching. In contrast, for the ascension of Christ, the New Testament uses terms such as “to be lifted up,” epairo (Acts 1:9), “to ascend,” anabaino (John 20:17; Ephesians 4:8-10) and “to take up,” analambano (Mark 16:19; Luke 1:11). These are neutral terms meaning a removal from one place to another. Revelation 12:5 has the male child being suddenly snatched away from the dragon, who wants to devour the child. The ascension of Christ was gradual (Acts 1:10), not sudden. Also, Revelation 12:5 is a context of “rescue” from the threat of the dragon. The word “rapture,” harpazo, is appropriately used in the New Testament for a rescue in Acts 23:10 and Jude 23. In His ascension to heaven, Christ was not rescued, but ascended victoriously and was no danger from the devil or anybody else. The term “rapture,” harpazo, is never used of Christ’s ascension to heaven. Thus, the use of harpazo in a rescue context like Revelation 12:5 is completely inappropriate to describe the ascension of Christ, but is completely appropriate to describe the rapture of the church as a rescue from Satan’s emerging efforts to destroy the church as we approach the end times.
5.Corporate application of Psalm 2:9 in Revelation 2:26-27; 12:5; and 19:14-15. In Psalm 2:9, God tells the Messiah, “‘You will break them [the nations] with a rod of iron, You will shatter them like earthenware.’” In Revelation 2:26-27, Christ extends this promise to the Church, the body of Christ: “‘And he who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received [authority] from My Father.” In Revelation 19:14-15, Christ and the armies come to earth, fulfilling the promise: “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white [and] clean, were following Him on white horses. And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.” This same Psalm is quoted in Revelation 12:5 and applied to the male child. Thus, the male child as Christ in union with His body, the Church, is most consistent with the application of the promise of Psalm 2:9 extended both to Christ and the Church.

My conclusion is this: 1) There is no good exegetical reason to reject the view that the male child represents the Church in union with Christ. 2) The common identification of the male child as Christ alone doesn’t account for all of the exegetical evidence, ignoring the informing image of Isaiah 66 and actually contradicting the basic meaning of harpazo. 3) The identification of the male child as the Church in union with Christ incorporates all of the evidence. 4) Therefore, the best interpretation of Revelation 12:5 is the rapture of the Church described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Having identified the male child as the body of Christ and its catching up as the rapture, the next question we have to answer is whether this vision presents a pre-seven-year rapture. After the male child is caught up (Revelation 12:5), we are told that there is war in heaven. Michael the archangel and his army fight the Dragon, who is cast down to the earth (12:7-9). Remember that the archangel is also associated with the rapture of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. This war in heaven takes some amount of time, as Daniel 10:13 reveals. However, when the Dragon is finally cast down there is a song of victory in heaven (12:10-12). Read in the light of the Church being raptured before the tribulation, this song makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it?

After the Dragon is cast down, he turns to attack the woman, the faithful remnant of Israel who reappears during the tribulation (7:1-8). Before the woman is preserved in the wilderness for 1,260, days, however, the Dragon, working through the world powers, launches an attack on Israel with an army (12:13-16). The image of the flood in Old Testament prophecy is that of an invasion (Ezekiel 1:24; Daniel 9:27). So, first the Dragon tries to destroy the woman with an invasion (first half of tribulation), but the army is defeated. Then, the woman flees to be protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days (second half of tribulation).

Utterly frustrated at his repeatedly failed plans, the Dragon turns his attention to the “rest of the offspring” of the woman, those who are saved during the tribulation (the “great multitude” of Revelation 7:9-17, which pre-tribulationists call the “tribulation saints”). The Dragon turns to a different means of combating the people of God: the Antichrist. It is at the middle of the tribulation that the 42 months of authority of the beast begins, described in Revelation 13.

So, to sum up, the catching up of the male child and the resulting war in heaven both take place at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation. The war in heaven and casting down of Satan, followed by the earthly invasion, attempted attack on Israel, and the flight of the woman, all take place in the first three-and-a-half years. Then the reign of the Beast take place in the second half of the tribulation. Therefore, the catching up of the male child (the rapture) takes place before the seven-year tribulation.

This is my primary exegetical argument for the pre-tribulation rapture.


Woohoo! I remember presenting this argument one or two years back... from my own study of the bible... no one quite agreed with me then if I remember correctly... Looks like I am not too slack with my study :lol:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:48 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:Woohoo! I remember presenting this argument one or two years back... from my own study of the bible... no one quite agreed with me then if I remember correctly... Looks like I am not too slack with my study


Haha, tried to search for the link of the discussion... it is in bits and pieces... http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57959&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=Revelation+12&start=50#p501396

And it is 2010... 5 years ago! My mind is failing me...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:29 am

Nope, check out this one which I started regarding Revelation 12:5 in 2009 :mrgreen:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=51410&p=451478&hilit=revelation+12+rapture#p451478
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby amessenger4god on Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:18 am

Thanks Keeping Alert! I hadn't heard this argument until recently, but it is pretty powerful. As I understand it, Darby himself saw a pre-trib rapture at Revelation 12:5. The word is the exact same: "harpazo". Jesus was not "harpazo-ed". And He was not in danger after the resurrection. The Church IS harpazo-ed and IS in imminent danger of the dragon.

Most scholars are in agreement that Revelation 12 has a surface meaning and a more intentioned corporate meaning:

Simple Meaning / Corporate Meaning

The Woman:
Mary / Israel

The Dragon:
Satan / The Empires and Kingdoms that have opposed Israel

The "Neuter" Male Child:
Jesus / The Church
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
- John 5:24
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:23 am

Keeping Alert- I looked over that post from 2009, and I was the only one to agree with you. In my own study I came to the same conclusion.

Revelation 12:4
4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.


The woman (Israel IMO) is about to give birth, well we know that Christ (the head) was already born into the heavenly tabernacle.
Colossians 1:18
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


He is the head of the body, so when the woman gives birth to the child, first the head is delivered, followed by the body, Christ first followed by the church which is His body. It is the perfect metaphor to depict the resurrection or "catching up" of the church.

RT
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:16 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Keeping Alert- I looked over that post from 2009, and I was the only one to agree with you. In my own study I came to the same conclusion.

Revelation 12:4
4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.


The woman (Israel IMO) is about to give birth, well we know that Christ (the head) was already born into the heavenly tabernacle.
Colossians 1:18
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


He is the head of the body, so when the woman gives birth to the child, first the head is delivered, followed by the body, Christ first followed by the church which is His body. It is the perfect metaphor to depict the resurrection or "catching up" of the church.

RT


I am in good company :grin:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Sanderson on Thu Aug 13, 2015 5:29 pm

I have recently been reading thru this series of blog posts and find them to be worth the read.

Trying to get the rapture right
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Keeping Alert on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:24 pm

Thanks Sanderson. That 11-part series is probably one of the best balanced assessment of all the rapture views I have seen :grin:

P.S. I had to check out the link you provided because there is a particularly colorful pulpit pounding pastor by the name of Pastor Sanderson who is very against pre-tribulation :lol:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Sanderson on Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:44 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:Thanks Sanderson. That 11-part series is probably one of the best balanced assessment of all the rapture views I have seen :grin:


I agree, he does his best to take a rational and logical view of the topic.

P.S. I had to check out the link you provided because there is a particularly colorful pulpit pounding pastor by the name of Pastor Sanderson who is very against pre-tribulation :lol:


Yes I am aware of him, but fear not, the similarity ends at our names. :mrgreen:
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby amessenger4god on Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:03 pm

I found some contemporary sources with well-thought out pre-trib systematic theologies. Very well researched sources:

The first is Dr. Paul Martin Henebury from England: https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/category/the-rapture/

The second is Andy Woods: http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/documents/articles/index.htm#199
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
- John 5:24
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Re: Good Pre-Trib Resources

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:36 am

amessenger4god wrote:I found some contemporary sources with well-thought out pre-trib systematic theologies. Very well researched sources:

The first is Dr. Paul Martin Henebury from England: https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/category/the-rapture/

The second is Andy Woods: http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/documents/articles/index.htm#199


Thanks AM4G, I particularly liked The link to Spirit and Truth... It deals with so much more than the rapture... In fact, I found something quite interesting regarding the Jewish target of Matthew that I am going to start a new thread...

Thanks!
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am


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