A case for our sudden disappearance...

by **Keeping Alert** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:53 pm

As we watch the tragic events in Japan with close to 10000 confirmed dead and close to 20000 missing, the case for sudden disappearance of people all over the world does not seem so difficult to believe afterall. What would happen if in an event of widespread disasters (natural or otherwise), Christians and non-Christians alike go missing? I would say the world would be none the wiser. As the world picks up the pieces, false Christs appear here and there and finally the anti-Christ emerges. The voice of opposition is minimal. Except for the 2 witnesses and the 144000 and some others here and there, the rest whose mind is darkened and not illuminated by the word will support this anti-Christ. A great delusion indeed!

Even so, Maranatha!

Blessings,
KA

by **mark s** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:59 pm

Hi KA,

We're on the same page.

:grin:

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Jericho** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:24 pm

Yes :) http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=53735&p=469031&hilit=perry+stone+earthquake#p469031

by **bchandler** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:33 pm

Then how do you rectify this with the scripture that states every every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess?

or...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we see that Jesus makes no secret of his coming for his saints... he comes with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God... sounds like a whole lotta fanfare and noise to me...

by **soonverysoon** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:59 pm

Yep bchandler I agree. I don't think there will be any question as to were everyone went when the Lord returns.

soonverysoon

by **mark s** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:01 pm

Please keep in mind, this is the pre-trib only forum.

Thanks!

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **bchandler** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:50 pm

no one has posted any comment challenging pre-trib that i can see... just the idea of a "secret" rapture...

by **mark s** on Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:56 pm

. . . just askin' to keep it in mind.

by **Jericho** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:06 am

There's no question that everyone will see Jesus at his second coming, but for the rapture I'm not so sure. Coming from a pre-trib perspective I can't think of any scriptures off hand that indicates unbelievers will see him.

bchandler wrote:Then how do you rectify this with the scripture that states every every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess?

That verse seems unrelated to the rapture, something that will likely take place at the Great White Throne Judgment for the unsaved. For the saved we have already confessed and bowed our knee to him (and I'm sure we will do so again in Heaven.)

or...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we see that Jesus makes no secret of his coming for his saints... he comes with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God... sounds like a whole lotta fanfare and noise to me...

Thessalonians only mentions believers seeing and hearing him, nothing about the unbelievers. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but as near as I can tell the rapture is only for the benefit of the saved not the unsaved.

by **M.C.Nige** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:49 am

From Acts 1:

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

I'm interested by the reference to cloud/clouds in relation to what is meant by in the same way. In the previous verse:

9. After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

and in 1 Thessalonians 4:

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Clouds hid the return of Jesus into heaven for the disciples watching. Perhaps clouds will also hide His return for His bride, and as we meet Him in the clouds, will the world see anything of what happens?

by **bchandler** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:00 am

Here, I have an experiment for you... you go down to the mall, pick out one person, and then holler at them, and then blow a trumpet at them... and only them... so that no one else can hear you.

Really... this is not an event that takes place in the spirit only... It is a physical event... Jesus actually, physically DESCENDS from heaven. He actually shouts... do you think that when the creator of the universe who spoke everything into existence shouts for his saints to come out of their graves that the whole universe will not hear him?

Will it be supernatural? no doubt... but secret?... Jesus always did everything out in the open. Even at his trial he made such a statement in his own defense. If we really do go out of this world in a pre-trib rapture... do you really think God would keep that a secret? God is not willing that any should perish... the time between the rapture and second coming is all the time the world has left, to save as many as possible. Do you really think that God would then hide such a powerful witness of his person, and his glory, and his promises when time is so short?

Look at the rapture pictured in revelation between the 7th trumpet and 1st vial, and before the harvest of the grapes of wrath. Jesus comes how? In the clouds... His coming is not hidden by the clouds, he is revealed as coming in them.

When people all around you start transforming into glorified bodies and blasting into the air like rockets... do you really think the world will not see it?

Nah... you don't hide something this big... Especially not if you really want the rest of the world to believe and turn, and repent. Now if God WANTED the rest of the world to die, and for no other people to be saved... hiding it would make sense. But his word tells us that a great multitude that no man can number will come out of the great trib.

Gee... i wonder what event would cause so many people to come to salvation during the great tribulation, and AFTER the rapture... hmmm.

by **Ready1** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:00 am

Acts 1:9. After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Did the whole world see Him go or was it a select few of His believers? Not secret at all; but certainly not seen by all the world either.

by **mark s** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:02 am

Good point! You won't see if you aren't watching!

by **bchandler** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:21 am

Was he calling believers out of their graves when he went? Was he saying anything to them? Were there believers around the entire circle of the earth? Do you think that people all around might actually notice when a certain portion of the population actually transforms before their eyes and flies off? BTW, there is some evidence to suggest that he was raptured before more than 500 witnesses.

Now in places where it is night time... i can see where FEWER people would be awake to witness it. But it would never be all.

The scripture doesn't say we won't see if we don't watch... It does specifically say that we won't know the hour of his return if we don't watch.

His return is as a thief only to those who are not watching, to those who are, he is expected, and seen coming from afar... because they are keeping a watch upon the wall... that is the entire point of the watch... to see as soon as it is possible to see.

by **mark s** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:25 am

Myself, I think the rapture will happen about the same time as a cataclysmic world-wide earth quake, and the majority of the people will be distracted by that. After the dust settles, a lot of people will be gone.

I think maybe some will see the raptured "leaving", and will either not believe their eyes, or will fall under the delusion, or will simply not be believed when they say what they saw.

I think the world will think that we all just died in the earthquake, and what do you mean, rapture, the 'Christians' are still here?

what I think, anyway . . .

by **bchandler** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:28 am

Mark, plausible... but that doesn't account for the great multitude that comes to faith AFTER the pre-trib rapture. In fact, your view would necessarily preclude it.

by **Ready1** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:35 am

There have been men of faith in every era (Hebrews 11) and there will be men of faith in the final seven years, for the Lord himself shall open blinded eyes.

by **mark s** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:36 am

bchandler wrote:Mark, plausible... but that doesn't account for the great multitude that comes to faith AFTER the pre-trib rapture. In fact, your view would necessarily preclude it.

Hi bchandler,

There would be an interesting discussion for a different thread.

If you build it, I will come.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Jericho** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:57 am

mark s wrote:
bchandler wrote:Mark, plausible... but that doesn't account for the great multitude that comes to faith AFTER the pre-trib rapture. In fact, your view would necessarily preclude it.

Hi bchandler,

There would be an interesting discussion for a different thread.

If you build it, I will come.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Yes ditto

by **bchandler** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:51 am

Ready1 wrote:There have been men of faith in every era (Hebrews 11) and there will be men of faith in the final seven years, for the Lord himself shall open blinded eyes.

You will get no argument from me there Ready1. God will never leave himself without witnesses while there is yet time for any to be saved.

by **Resurrection Torchlight** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:49 pm

Here, I have an experiment for you... you go down to the mall, pick out one person, and then holler at them, and then blow a trumpet at them... and only them... so that no one else can hear you.

Really... this is not an event that takes place in the spirit only... It is a physical event... Jesus actually, physically DESCENDS from heaven. He actually shouts... do you think that when the creator of the universe who spoke everything into existence shouts for his saints to come out of their graves that the whole universe will not hear him?

When God spoke on the Mountain to Moses and later when He spoke in John, the people did not hear it in words but as if it was thunder, only those who God was directly speaking to understood what was being said. So even though it was an actual event it had a spiritual component. Christ will actually shout, but only those who know His voice (AKA His sheep) will hear him. Everyone else might hear something, but they will not understand. So the answer to your question is no I do not think the whole universe will hear Him until He wants them to.

Will it be supernatural? no doubt... but secret?... Jesus always did everything out in the open. Even at his trial he made such a statement in his own defense. If we really do go out of this world in a pre-trib rapture... do you really think God would keep that a secret? God is not willing that any should perish... the time between the rapture and second coming is all the time the world has left, to save as many as possible. Do you really think that God would then hide such a powerful witness of his person, and his glory, and his promises when time is so short?

Jesus did not always do everything out in the open, he often went off by Himself to pray, to be alone away from the crowd. When He was tempted He was alone for instance. Yes I do believe that God can and might keep the "rapture" an event of stealth. 2 Thess 2 tells us why-

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

What God has hidden from the world,can be understood by the world only if they believe the truth. What is hidden is available to all in Christ.

Colossians 2:2-3
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

The only reason His truth is hidden at all is because of man's refusal to believe. There will come a day when God will recompense the world for ignoring His word. And regardless of what else happens God will always leave a testimony for mankind. There will be the two witnesses for instance, and an eternal gospel that is proclaimed throughout the earth spoken of in the revelation. There will be the 144,000, there will be the record of all that came before, the testimony of history and God's people that came before. let alone the written word. Do you think that none will repent and come to faith during the 70th week? The revelation tells us of the tribulation martyrs, those who refuse the mark and talks of their resurrection. Though I understand that not all agree on who these martyrs represent, and if you do not believe a pre-trib rapture, then you will see that differently.

It has been no secret in the world that a rapture event might be in the making. Believers around the world have been discussing such an event for centuries. So really it has been no secret and when it should happen and I personally believe it will, I do believe that the rapture itself will be a very powerful testimony to those who remain and some will IMO repent and turn to faith in Christ as a result, stealth, yes- secret,no. Because as you have so rightly stated God is not willing that any should perish and I believe He will always work to bring men to repentance and belief even throughout the 70th week and the millennial kingdom, up until the final judgment. But there will be those who rebel against God's truth- who will be deceived to believe what is false. Who will like those when Noah entered the ark- not understand until the flood takes them away.

RT

by **bchandler** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:26 pm

Well said RT... I know Jesus went off by himself to pray... but i, and he, was referring to the overt acts of his ministry. Not his private personal behavior. He provided his disciples some greater level of understanding, but what he taught them was no different than what he expounded daily... he did everything openly, and publicly... and did nothing in a corner...

I don't think this will be done in a corner either.

by **Ready1** on Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:32 pm

The only reason His truth is hidden at all is because of man's refusal to believe. There will come a day when God will recompense the world for ignoring His word. And regardless of what else happens God will always leave a testimony for mankind.

Not just ignoring his word but ignoring all the rest of the evidence by which He is glorified.

Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Psa 19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
Psa 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

by **Keeping Alert** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:47 am

bchandler wrote:Here, I have an experiment for you... you go down to the mall, pick out one person, and then holler at them, and then blow a trumpet at them... and only them... so that no one else can hear you.

Really... this is not an event that takes place in the spirit only... It is a physical event... Jesus actually, physically DESCENDS from heaven. He actually shouts... do you think that when the creator of the universe who spoke everything into existence shouts for his saints to come out of their graves that the whole universe will not hear him?

Did not the bible say that "My sheep hear my voice"? Does it not then by default mean that the "non-sheep" will not hear his voice?

Also, in a world-wide disaster, where there is the loud tremor of earthquake and rocks and buildings collapsing, people shouting and screaming, the thunderous waves of a 10m high tsunami, and the emergency siren blasting, I think we can build a case where even if the voice and the trumpet of God was physically audible to everyone, those who are not "sheeps" will not hear or understand.

And besides, I think our God is so powerful that in a moment, he can simultaenously say "Come up, Mark!", "Come up, mrgravyard!", "Come up, resurrectiontorchlight", "Come up, Charles..." What a glorious day that would be!

by **mark s** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:59 am

I've thought about that too . . . will that shout be my name?

by **Resurrection Torchlight** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:04 am

I've thought about that too . . . will that shout be my name?

I kind of think it might be what John heard- "come up here".

RT

by **Resurrection Torchlight** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:32 am

Oh by the way- Jesus did go up to the feast of Tabernacles in secret- so there is a case in which He did something secretly without the knowledge of others. Though later while at the feast His presence was revealed.

John 7:2-10
2 Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near.
3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing.
4 “For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.”
5 For not even His brothers were believing in Him.
6 So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune.
7 “The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
8 “Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.”
9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.
10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.

Interesting that His brothers defined why one does something secretly and Jesus confirms their definition- a person who does not wish to be known publicly- does things in secret. Jesus did not wish to be known publicly yet because His time had not yet fully come, so He went to the feast- not publicly- but in secret, He was concealed from public view.

Same deal with the rapture IMO Jesus comes to His sheep quietly, as if in secret, hidden from public view, because He does not yet want to "show Himself to the world".

RT

by **bchandler** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:50 am

When Jesus raised Lazarus... He shouted, "Lazarus, come forth!!"

If he hadn't specifically called Lazarus by name... some speculate that every soul would have come up out of their graves.

I suspect that he his shout will be just that... calling us to come forth... but how could he address us specifically?

My children, My people, My disciples, My bride... I can think of any number of ways he could preface that "come forth" shout that would apply specifically to us. Or, he could supernaturally call every single one of us out by name as previously suggested. But, long and short of it is that I expect that he will call us forth with precisely the words he used to call Lazarus forth.

and he will do nothing in a corner. All of his teachings and works were done publicly. Before the believer and unbeliever alike. Going up in secret has nothing to do with his works and his teachings... every WORK he did was public... every TEACHING he gave was public... he did expound and expand some things to his disciples in private, but he didn't tell them to keep that knowledge secret. There were just certain things they needed to know for their preparation for his death and resurrection.

The point is... the rapture is not private, nor is it preparatory, nor is it a secret. It is the opposite... it is a culmination, a climax, a victorious joyful moment for shouting and praise and worship. In the rapture, Jesus himself personally harvests the earth (see revelation, after the 7th trumpet)... not the angels... The angels harvest the grapes of wrath. Plus the arch angels shouting, and the blowing of the trump of God... the picture here is not one of being hidden, or secret, or stealthy, or subtle... it is precisely the opposite. In point of fact, i would like to point out that that list of qualities are not the qualities of God, but of the Devil himself.

It is the Devil who is hidden, or occult. It is the Devil who works in secret, stealthy ways... it is the Devil who is subtle and deceitful.

by **mark s** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:08 pm

bchandler wrote:. In the rapture, Jesus himself personally harvests the earth (see revelation, after the 7th trumpet)

Hi bchandler,

Please use a debate forum for views opposing the pre-trib rapture.

Thank you!
Mark

by **bchandler** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:30 pm

um.. i did not suggest anything other than a pre-tribulation rapture...

You can't deny that what we see after the 7th trumpet is a picture of the rapture, and grapes of wrath harvest! Or at least I have never seen anyone do so... not even pre-trib people... there is so much stuff between the seventh trumpet and the first vial.

I don't know how you personally rectify that in a pre-trib mindset... but that is your issue to deal with... I don't personally care when it happens, and it is not a salvation issue. I have always heard it explained that what was given between the seventh trumpet and the 7 vials was an over-view kind of recap of events up to that point. However you see that is fine with me... and has nothing to do with my view on eschatology...

I in no way am discussing, or implying a different rapture viewpoint... I was merely pointing to scripture... you don't like it.. take it up with God...lol (tongue firmly in cheek) (no i am not upset or treating you harshly.. just a little good natured ribbing) I thought it was fairly obvious from the paranded comment (see revelation, after the 7th trumpet) that i was pointing out a location in scripture, not advocating an eschatological viewpoint.

So if i wasn't clear enough... I appologize.

(edited to remove any information that might be misconstrued as offensive rather than light hearted ribbing)

by **mark s** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:58 pm

bchandler wrote:um.. i did not suggest anything other than a pre-tribulation rapture...

Rapture after the 7th trumpet is not generally considered pre-trib.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **bchandler** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:01 pm

Good Lord Mark :lol:

... i was pointing to the location in scripture.... i was not and never did say that the rapture was after the seventh trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

There are the scriptures... plain as day... the description of the rapture and a whole lot of other stuff... is located after the seventh trumpet, and before the first vial judgment...

Fact... plain and simple... i was referencing the location in scripture.. not stating that the location was an indication of timing...

I think you have misconstrued my reference, to mean something it did not. I apologize if i wasn't clear enough... i hope it is clear now.

(edited to add emoticons, and clarification, so no one thinks i am exasperated, but realizes i am laughing about the miscommunication)

by **AndCanItBe** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:39 pm

1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.

15. Always treat our Administrators and Moderators with due respect.]

Moderators are due the same respect as any other member of this board, bchandler. Attacking the person is absolutely not appropriate. If you want to discuss this decision any further please do so by pm.

by **Spreading Salt** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:04 pm

Dearest Yeshua,

I absolutely LOVE my church family here. I know You love them even more. Please heal the personal wounds that have been inflicted whether knowingly or unknowingly. Protect our hearts from bitterness and frustration. There is such a wonderful fellowship here and Satan is NOT welcome. Please remind us to love each other Lord as love covers a multitude of sin. May BC realize that Mark is protecting the pretrib forum and that other areas and threads can be used to debate our interpreted timing of Your Word's prophecies. Thank You Lord for loving us sooooooo much! Please come soon but while we wait, give us grace and humbleness as we interact with each other. Bless the moderators. Amen.

by **bchandler** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:06 pm

ok.. since my previous post withdrawing from this thread was deleted.. .i will try to do this in a way the moderators find acceptable.

I apologize for any misunderstanding i may have created to cause people to think i was inserting another eschatology into this thread. I wasn't... merely pointing to where the information i was referencing could be located in scripture.

I apologize if any comment i made seems at all disrespectful... even though i clearly stated that i was responding in a laughing, tongue in cheek, light hearted fashion. Apparently me saying so, and LOLing wasn't enough to prevent a misunderstanding, and apparently even though i said so... certain words were considered in violation of rules.

Since i can not seem to communicate well enough to prevent people from being unnecessarily offended... i will simply withdraw...

(edited to remove any potentially offensive comment)

by **mark s** on Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:28 pm

Thank you, bchandler!

I appreciate your being sensitive to the readers who may not know how to interpret your comments. We all have to remember, people are watching, and weighing . . .

And if you are interested in how I rectify my understanding of the Revelation 14 harvest with a pre-trib rapture mindset, we can certainly do that in one of the other threads.

Meanwhile . . .

:hugs:

. . . and . . .

:backtotopic:

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Resurrection Torchlight** on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:09 am

The point is... the rapture is not private, nor is it preparatory, nor is it a secret. It is the opposite... it is a culmination, a climax, a victorious joyful moment for shouting and praise and worship. In the rapture, Jesus himself personally harvests the earth (see revelation, after the 7th trumpet)... not the angels... The angels harvest the grapes of wrath. Plus the arch angels shouting, and the blowing of the trump of God... the picture here is not one of being hidden, or secret, or stealthy, or subtle... it is precisely the opposite. In point of fact, i would like to point out that that list of qualities are not the qualities of God, but of the Devil himself.

bchandler, in response to some things you posted: I do not believe that a harvest is a picture of resurrection or rapture, but rather a cutting off of life- reaping represents the death of individuals. It is the ingathering of the grain into the Lord's barn that represents resurrection or rapture. I tried to point this out in the other thread (Tares and wheat). And also in my Resurrection harvest thread in this forum. The reaping that is spoken of in Revelation is what I believe to be Christ's victory at Armageddon, when He visibly returns to destroy those who have gathered there to make war against Him. They are cut off- reaped, killed. This is not a resurrection event but a death event. And as you point out it will be a very visible public event.

You say that doing things in a way that causes them to be hidden from public view is a quality of Satan. Yes I can agree that it can be, but not everything hidden from view is evil. You made the point that Jesus taught publicly and I agree. Everything He said concerning the kingdom was public, but as I pointed out He did go up to the feast in secret. That cannot be denied. Much of what happens spiritual today is hidden from our view, we don't see angels at work for instance do we? We do not see the powers and principalities on the physical plane do we? The fact that things happen that are hidden from public view does not make them inherently evil. Nothing hidden by God is evil, and Jesus clearly hid Himself from public view when He went up to the feast- it was not evil, but purposeful in order to not expose Himself publicly, because it was not yet the time for Him to do so. Since we have this precedent in scripture, why then is it so hard to imagine that Christ could gather in His Barley First fruits harvest in a way that is hidden from public view? With the spiritual component of Christ's trumpeting voice calling us to "come forth"(whether by name or as a group) will only be understood by those who know His voice and are known by Him and perhaps our disappearance may be hidden from view as well. I rather think that your predisposed view makes this difficult for you to see as happening in this manner.

The original post suggests that certain events may obscure those missing when the rapture occurs. That perhaps there will be a false explanation for it, which may deceive some into believing that it was just part of some other great event going on at the time and not the "rapture" as we call it. The OP suggests that this could be the great delusion sent by God so that those who remain on earth will believe what is false (that the rapture has not happened?). And I am at this time inclined to agree.

RT

Edited to add: Oops- I see you have withdrawn from this thread- if you would rather respond in a PM or another thread feel free to do so. I learn so much more debating things ( in love) than I ever have just reading a commentary. Regardless of our various views concerning the timeline of prophetic events- I have great respect for folks like you who are willing to stick their necks out there to voice their thoughts. We may continue to agree to disagree but know that even so- you are still my brother in Christ and I love you regardless.

by **Reborn** on Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:26 pm

Thank you Mark. No offense to anyone, but I'm a PreTribber and I was beginning to wonder if there was a new definition of PreTrib going around now. :banghead:

May our Father in Heaven bless all His Believers here at FP and throughout the entire world.

by **mark s** on Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:32 pm

Reborn wrote:May our Father in Heaven bless all His Believers here at FP and throughout the entire world.

by **christian_m0mmy** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:49 pm

Just a couple of things to add to no one in particular.

Did Jesus not secretly turn water into wine?

Didn't He heal a blind man and tell him not to tell anyone?
:itsgood:

by **mark s** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:48 am

The Lord of Glory was born a human, and only a young couple, and some shepherds knew about it.

Besides, the argument that "He's not done it before, so He never will do it" falls apart at the first inspection. Because there's a first for everything, at least, in the human experience.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Spreading Salt** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:06 am

We still have so much to learn about Him don't we? So many people attempt to limit His power and put Him in their tidy and small little boxes (that they can understand).

Dearest Yeshua,

Thank You for being in control of all things. We are sooooo excited for what is yet to come. Thank You for giving us Your Word so that we can try to learn and grow. Please give us discernment as we read. Thank You for the hope we have in You and in Your second arrival. I pray it's soon. Amen.

by **Jericho** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:36 am

We still have so much to learn about Him don't we?

I imagine it will take an eternity. :)

by **missionary** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:33 am

I believe the case can be made for what is called a "secret" rapture based on the following:

Luke 13:35
"Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"

Zechariah 12:10
"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Matthew 24:30
"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Following the resurrection of the Lord, there is no mention in the Bible that unbelievers ever saw him physically through the time He ascended into heaven, and I do not believe any will see Him until His second coming. Which is why I think He only comes on the clouds to call his church home at the rapture - He will not reveal Himself again to the world until we (the bride) are with Him. It's a judgement already to the world that this is so.

At least that's how I've been taught these scriptures fit together. It makes alot of sense to me.

by **benny balerio** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:54 pm

The scriptures that you post are targeted for Israel,...not the Bride.
Maybe,..I am not grasping what you intend to point out,..but yes,..the scriptures are targeted exclusively for Israel.

by **missionary** on Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:52 am

Yes - you are correct in that those verses in context apply to Israel, I am referring though to a larger principal involved exemplified through the High Priest's position found in Hebrews. He would enter the Holy of Holies to make atonement for the people, not to appear or be seen by the people until redemption was fully accomplished. Per Daniel 9:24 - the 70th week wraps up all that work and therefore I do not believe the unbelieving world will see Christ in any physical sense until He returns visibly with His bride at the end of the tribulation.

by **benny balerio** on Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:00 am

I totally agree!........and things are happening so fast!
I can barely contain myself these days,...my heart just swells up inside of me knowing our wait is not much longer.

by **missionary** on Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:40 pm

Yes I relate - sometimes the longing to just be there already and see the reality of all that we've hoped for gets overwhelming.

by **Resurrection Torchlight** on Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:52 am

So I was reading John's account of the resurrection of Jesus and something dawned on me as I did. Earlier in this thread we talked about the idea that Jesus did things openly, but that he also did things that were not done in public. After His resurrection Jesus manifested Himself to His followers. To Mary in the garden just after and also to those on the road and those disciples inside the closed room. He did not make the fact of His resurrection known to the public, but only to those who knew Him and followed Him.

Manifest in the Greek means:

5319 φανερόω [phaneroo /fan·er·o·o/] 1 to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way. 1a make actual and visible, realised. 1b to make known by teaching. 1c to become manifest, be made known. 1d of a person. 1d1 expose to view, make manifest, to show one’s self, appear. 1e to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood. 1e1 who and what one is.
Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (H0). Ontario: Woodside Bible .

Jesus hid Himself from public view after His resurrection. Couldn't this be like when He manifests Himself to those who are His, when He comes to gather them to Himself at the rapture??? Isn't it possible that His appearing then will not be made visible to all? But only to those who are His? Perhaps the effects of His coming for us will be visible, like the empty tomb, and the earthquake and the moved stone were visible to the public when He was resurrected, but the world will not see Him- only we will. The public will witness the effects- the missing people, perhaps another earthquake, the chaos caused by those events, they might even see some signs in the sky, but they will not see HIm.

Just thinking out loud

RT

by **Keeping Alert** on Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:39 am

Exactly my thoughts, RT.

One more passage...

Luke 24:16 - But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

The 2 men walking on the way to Emmaus did not even know that Jesus was with them! Jesus gave them a wonderful bible study along the way and gave thanks for the food before opening their eyes (verse 31) and then he vanishes out of their sight.

I do think that there is more than enough examples to show that our God is able to and often does things in the secret.