Why are those of the Pre-Trib position so adamant?

[WallDoctor]

I want to hear this answer from those of you who are Pre-Trib. I've read some of the arguments of why you believe the Church will be raptured out before the 7 years begin, but my question is why is there a militantism amongst some about the church absolutely not going through this period of persecution?

There are many issues in scripture I have a very strong opinion on. But I also understand that outside of the Essentials of the faith, I'm going to one day get into Heaven and discover that some issues which I was sure I was right on, I've been wrong. So while I strongly defend them and try to demonstrate them from Scripture, I try to remember to be gracious and humble with others in case they are actually right and I am wrong. I think of issues like Baptism or Calvinism which I hold to strongly.

But on this Pre-Trib/Pre-Wrath/Post-Trib issue. I've read blogs and heard people say that they won't even consider the possibility that they are wrong and then harshly attack those who they disagree with? I don't see this same kind of attack coming from the Pre-wrath side.

I'm not saying that everyone is like this on the Pre-Trib side but I'm sure many of you Pre-Trib types have seen it. Can you explain why there is this militantism amongst some? I'm not interested in the debatable doctrinal issues as much as I am in this issue of the heart and pride I guess.

Thanks in advance,

WallDoctor

PS. I hope this is the right place to put this post. :)

[extravagantchristian]

I think that's a good question wall doctor. It doesn't hurt to have an open mind. I used to be very adamant about my pre-trib belief and I think it was partly because of fear. I was afraid to allow myself to consider that I might have to be here for the GT. But another reason why is because pre-trib was the FIRST theory I was ever taught and it is so widly accepted among Christians in this country. EVERY SINGLE pastor I had ever listened to INSISTED that the rapture would be pre-trib, because that's what they were taught in seminary. All the pastors that I trusted from real life, radio, and TV. I KNEW that they were much farther along in their faith and understanding of the word, so why not believe these men of God that I respected? I just assumed that everything that came out of their mouth, was coming from the mouth of God. I guess a third reason why would be the pre-trib view does present some scriptures that on the surface really do appear to support the view.

Sometimes I wonder, what if I was never taught anything about bible prophecy, and I opened up the bible for the first time to read for myself, then what would I think about the end times and the "rapture"?

[Keeping Alert]

Seems like you have not been long enough on FP to know that those on the other side of the fence are just as "militant" too

I think one essential difference between the views is that of The Doctrine of Imminency and if one believes in the view of Imminency, then there is probably a sense of urgency, a sense of standing fast, a sense of sounding the alarm, which might be seen as being "militant" I guess.

I am personally not militant about my views of the rapture. I am all ready to go through the tribulation if need be, but as far as I can tell, the church is not present during the tribulation and neither does it need to be present for its purification as some teach.

Blessings,
KA

[extravagantchristian]

I think one essential difference between the views is that of The Doctrine of Imminency and if one believes in the view of Imminency, then there is probably a sense of urgency, a sense of standing fast, a sense of sounding the alarm, which might be seen as being "militant" I guess.

Is it really necessary for one to believe in the pre-trib view to take their Christianity seriously? We all know the urgency of a lost soul needing to be saved, and we all know that we could die and be standing before God at any moment. By the way, is "Imminency" a word in the Bible?

[plalgum]

I think you hit the nail on the head FEAR,i would be lying to say that i was not frightened,but i would like to show the greater love to our Lord by not denying him,and laying my life down for his sake.
The World Christian Encyclopedia estimates that 70,000,000 Brothers,and Sisters have done just that over the last 2000 years

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Walldoctor,

Personally I think the "militancy" attitude comes from those on all sides of the rapture debate. I believe those that are more militant are likely less mature in their faith. This is not a criticism- just a fact. Not everyone has matured to the place where they can admit that they might be wrong- personally and/or spiritually. Also it may be that they lack clear understanding themselves, so instead of exploring other views and studying for themselves they get defensive, because they lack the biblical knowledge. Again this is not a slight, but just demonstrates that they have some more growing to do- as do we all. I used to be more that way myself, until I really studied deeply and learned more about other views, I have really learned a lot from reading what others have to say, it causes me to study all the more.

I truly believe in a pre-trib rapture, although my view is somewhat different than the traditional view, however I am aware that there is the possibility I could be wrong about it, and like others am prepared for whatever the Lord has for me, whether rapture or tribulation even death. The Lord may not even come in our lifetime, so I am prepared to live out my life as He wills.

Though I really hope with all my being that I am right, but I'm not going to be pushy about it with others.

RT

[Abiding in His Word]

Just a reminder that the Pre-Trib forum is for those with Pre-Trib view only. No opposing views allowed in this forum.

Thanks!

[WallDoctor]

Was this the wrong place to ask this question? I figured it was the best place to put it since it was a question for Pre-Tribbers and I wasn't debating their position -- only asking about their position.

If there is a better place to put it, feel free to move it to the appropriate category.

WallDoctor

[Abiding in His Word]

It's OK, WallDoctor. I just figured since you were kinda new, I'd throw out a reminder in case you didn't know. If anyone feels a debate coming on, just pm one of us and we'll gladly move it.

[dolfseal]

It doesn't matter which you "think", we are all on the same team. I think the pivotal point to focus on is Wrath. Does the wrath begin at the beginning of the trib, or does it begin half way through? Our answer to this question is how be base our opinion to the rapture.
Personally, I would love to be one of the 144K. How great would it be to represent God during the great trib and help bring in souls for Gods kingdom. I can't think of a greater honor.

[plalgum]

Dolfseal that honour is yours right now,go out and find a soul today and bring them into the kingdom today.

[Jericho]

I think sometimes we get so focused on our differences that we forget we agree on more things than we disagree on. As others have said there are "militants" on all sides of the fence (pre,pre-wrath,post). It's sad too that some people let something so trivial as the timing of the rapture divide us and even treat those with opposing views almost as heretics. I'm not speaking of everyone of course. As for me I'm fairly secure in my pre-trib belief but not so adamant that if I see certain things come to pass to re-evaluate my views.

[sandalfoot]

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Pierce1.html

This about sums it all up for me. I spoke with a pre-wrather the other day and they admitted that basically not going through the Tribulation is "too good to be true". I couldn't believe my ears. I replied "Salvation is what's too good to be true!" They made a point to remark how Christians all over the world are being persecuted so, why should we escape?

Look, I've been going over this for over 30 years now. I've given a great deal of thought and prayer time to this matter. I see the arguments put forth by Marv Rosenthal and see this as a clear ploy of satan to keep Christian's eyes off the imminent return of Jesus Christ for His church. See, the doctrine of imminency is crucial. It keeps Christians walking the Walk and not just talking it. We are looking for Jesus to return and pre-wrather's are looking for the appearance of the antichrist. By this I mean they are establishing some sort of reference point as to when they can start to look up for Jesus to return. Even if, as is written about a lot on this site, the 7 year treaty has been signed, people can reason that the rapture is a few years off. As I see it, the 7 year period known as the 70th Week is a very distinct period of time alloted by God to deal with His chosen people, the Jews. It is also a period of judgment for an unbelieving world that has wanted since Eden to do it on their own. They will get their chance.

What really put me over the top was the Jewish wedding custom of the groom going away for awhile whilst he prepares a place for Him and His bride. He will return but, not until His Father (our Heavenly Father) tells Him to go get His bride. That is why "no man knows the day or hour". Jesus doesn't know either until God the Father says "go get your bride!" Now consider that the wedding feast takes place for a period of 7 days! We are taken to be with Jesus where we are wedded to our groom forever more and the feast continues for 7 years!

I have seen first hand with my own eyes that churches not preaching the imminent return of Jesus Christ are faltering. They are missing the joy that I see in churches that are awaiting His return at any moment! The difference is palpable. Sure, these churches not preaching this say they are "fine" but, they are lacking. On the one hand they tend to embrace the pre-wrath heresy (you heard that right, I'll make no apologies here) but, on the other, they don;t preach it from the pulpit. How can they? They cannot "comfort one another with these words" if they ignore them!

Finally, this video below is so right on. I would strongly urge everyone to watch this video!

http://www.lamblion.com/television/prog ... trib15.php

[extravagantchristian]

They cannot "comfort one another with these words" if they ignore them!
http://www.lamblion.com/television/prog ... trib15.php

Could that verse be looked at from a different perspective?

SInce it's talking about grieving for the dead, could it be that the actualy timing of the rapture has nothing to do with what he is saying, but that "comforting one another with these words" is reguarding the fact that WE WILL SEE OUR LOVED ONES AGAIN if they have died in Christ? Isn't it comforting to know that no matter what happens in this life, no one can take away our hope, that we will be resurrected to meet our loved ones that have died before us, and Jesus too when He comes for us.

1 Thess. 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you grieve as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[extravagantchristian]

See, the doctrine of imminency is crucial. It keeps Christians walking the Walk and not just talking it.

Do you think it is possible for a Christian to still fear God and walk the walk without believing that the rapture could happen any second?

We all believe in imminency, in the sense that we all know we could die and meet Christ at any time.

I have seen first hand with my own eyes that churches not preaching the imminent return of Jesus Christ are faltering. They are missing the joy that I see in churches that are awaiting His return at any moment! The difference is palpable. Sure, these churches not preaching this say they are "fine" but, they are lacking.

Do you think it might be possible to experience the joy of the Lord, in spite of knowing that we will have tribulation in this world?

[mrgravyard49]

watch Steve Hadley of Harvest reno.org
Click on Messages -7/13/08==the rapture
http://harvestreno.org/messages.asp

[watching]

I would like to chime in with my view on this issue, although I know my view is different from most who post in this section.

I believe that Jesus could return at any moment because, from my understanding of scripture, no one knows the day or the hour of the Lord's return, or who He will come for when He comes for that matter.

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:50
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Luke 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

But I don't believe it necessarily has to tie in with any seven year period theories (emphasis on theories), which to me seem to be based merely on speculations and presuppositions from the best I can tell.

Now, there is the warning in 2 Thessalonians 2 concerning our gathering unto the Lord which we must be mindful of, imo. Although I must concede that sometimes (emphasis on sometimes) I am able to see it as a hologram, meaning the picture appears different depending on which angle you look at it from...... I'm just not sure if the other angle is kosher, for lack of a better word.

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

So, in the end, my opinion is...........I just don't know..........All I know is that we are to be ready and watchful at all times, following all of God's commandments to the best of our ability.

At least that's what I'm trying to do (emphasis on trying, although maybe not often succeeding).

[WallDoctor]

prewrath heresy (you heard that right, I'll make no apologies here)

I've always reserved heresy for teachings which go contrary to what is necessary for genuine faith in Christ and make a distinction between heresy and error. I'm curious to how you would define heresy?

[Faithful is the Word]

Hi WallDoctor,
Through my Mentor God the Holy Spirit who witnessess to me Truth taught by my Pastor/Teacher and many many more who are like minded of His return for the Church, we have Hope and as you study under the filling of God the Holy Spirit and grow in grace Hope becomes absolute confidence in His Word on this Doctrine. There is His coming for the Church, and there is His coming to earth with the church at the end of the Tribulation Rev. 19. In one He comes for His bride, and in the other, He comes with His bride.

Our Lord told us there would be wars and rumors of was as we have seen and heard. I believe we are a Client Nation of God not a christian nation, His Laws of Divine Establishment are what makes this the greatest nation. His Liberty is what we enjoy in the United States of America, if He goes because of lack of knowledge because believers forget their source our nation looses it's client nation status, Liberty belongs to Him, it happened to Israel more than once. Blessed is the Nation who's God is the Lord.

I believe in the Church Age there are client nations, so if there is a pivot of mature believers in another country than God will intervene any deceiving plan to usher Satan's last attempt in his appeal trial which is the 7 year Tribulation. We are no different than Daniel and those in the prison march.
If our country is going out of client nation status and their is not a pivot of mature believers here or anywhere else, the rapture takes place and the Tribulation starts.
We in the Church Age are His Bride, Royalty, Family of God, we have the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit, before the Church that never happened, David cried take not Thy Holy Spirit from me, He had induement but not indwelling, after the Church it will never happen, so we are taken out of the way so the Lawless one can be revealed. The resurrection of the Church could be right now or a 1000 more years depends on a pivot of mature believers That's why it's the Imminentcy of the Rapture, in the humanity of Jesus Christ it wasn't for Him to know, but the Diety of Christ he always knew, it lets the body of Christ know, no one knows the hour. God the Father is the Authority, He knows when the Rapture, Exanastasis, Exit Resurrection of the believers in Christ will take place.

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And so now you know the One who restrains,the presence of the Holy Spirit in every believer during the Church Age, so that the Roman dictator may be revealed in his own dispensation.

2 Thess. 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already operational,the intensified stage of the Angelic Conflict in the Church Age. Only He who now restrains will continue that ministry of restraint until He is taken out of the way the Rapture brings to an end the Holy Spirit’s indwelling ministry among believers.

Exanastasis Phil.3:11 Resurrection, you live by God in knowing it, the exit resurrection of believers could happen anytime and you live daily towards others like it won't happen in your lifetime we belong in Heaven but we have duties here.

In Christ

[lookup]

I would like to chime in with "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:9

My first year here on this site I was treated very rude by some very immature post-trib, pre-wrath posters. At the time I had no idea there were youngsters posting at this site because it sure wasn't in love. They have gotten better this past year, maybe because they are beginning to question their views with all the snowball end time events taking place. Anyway, the reason that I am so adamant about my position is because I know that I know that I'm right. Yes I could just drop dead any minute but I know the bride is not going through he wrath. Looking up and comfort yourselves we these words.

[I've Seen Angels]

I would like to chime in with "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:9

My first year here on this site I was treated very rude by some very immature post-trib, pre-wrath posters. At the time I had no idea there were youngsters posting at this site because it sure wasn't in love. They have gotten better this past year, maybe because they are beginning to question their views with all the snowball end time events taking place. Anyway, the reason that I am so adamant about my position is because I know that I know that I'm right. Yes I could just drop dead any minute but I know the bride is not going through he wrath. Looking up and comfort yourselves we these words.

I agree ...it is this verse that has gotten my attention recently:Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,”

Life will be normal until that day… It will occur during a time of prosperity when people are buying, selling, marrying, planting, and harvesting. This has to occur before the tribulation since the earth will be devastated by the judgments and wrath of God during the tribulation period.

It all makes sense...it has to happen before the tribulation,before the judgments...because He states that all is normal until that day.

May we cry out for mercy on our nation, may we ask for forgiveness for our waywardness, and return to our first love of God, that our prayers may be answered from heaven. Return to God that He may return his mercy to us.

[jgilberAZ]

It will be like it was in the days of Noah (and Lot).

The righteous will be delivered the same day destruction comes on the unsuspecting.

It doesn't mean the conditions of the world at the time then will be the same. It means the pattern "deliverance on same day as destruction" will be repeated.

.

[Cantaress4Him]

I would like to chime in with "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:9

My first year here on this site I was treated very rude by some very immature post-trib, pre-wrath posters. At the time I had no idea there were youngsters posting at this site because it sure wasn't in love. They have gotten better this past year, maybe because they are beginning to question their views with all the snowball end time events taking place. Anyway, the reason that I am so adamant about my position is because I know that I know that I'm right. Yes I could just drop dead any minute but I know the bride is not going through he wrath. Looking up and comfort yourselves we these words.

I agree ...it is this verse that has gotten my attention recently:Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,”

Life will be normal until that day… It will occur during a time of prosperity when people are buying, selling, marrying, planting, and harvesting. This has to occur before the tribulation since the earth will be devastated by the judgments and wrath of God during the tribulation period.

It all makes sense...it has to happen before the tribulation,before the judgments...because He states that all is normal until that day.

May we cry out for mercy on our nation, may we ask for forgiveness for our waywardness, and return to our first love of God, that our prayers may be answered from heaven. Return to God that He may return his mercy to us.

And ...

It will be like it was in the days of Noah (and Lot).

The righteous will be delivered the same day destruction comes on the unsuspecting.

It doesn't mean the conditions of the world at the time then will be the same. It means the pattern "deliverance on same day as destruction" will be repeated.

.

I agree with the above quotes wholeheartedly! People are going to be living their lives normally -- doing the everyday things they've always done. I don't see the time during the tribulation qualifying as being "normal". People will be always anticipating the next bad thing that will happen them. They will be living in utter despair.

But I Thess. 5:3 says, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." This tells me that people will be living in relative peace and quiet before the day of the Lord's wrath hits ... just as it was in the day of Noah. And true Christians will be delivered and taken out of the "sudden destruction" just as Noah and his family were.

[Reborn]

I would like to chime in with "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:9

My first year here on this site I was treated very rude by some very immature post-trib, pre-wrath posters. At the time I had no idea there were youngsters posting at this site because it sure wasn't in love. They have gotten better this past year, maybe because they are beginning to question their views with all the snowball end time events taking place. Anyway, the reason that I am so adamant about my position is because I know that I know that I'm right. Yes I could just drop dead any minute but I know the bride is not going through he wrath. Looking up and comfort yourselves we these words.

I agree ...it is this verse that has gotten my attention recently:Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,”

Life will be normal until that day… It will occur during a time of prosperity when people are buying, selling, marrying, planting, and harvesting. This has to occur before the tribulation since the earth will be devastated by the judgments and wrath of God during the tribulation period.

It all makes sense...it has to happen before the tribulation,before the judgments...because He states that all is normal until that day.

May we cry out for mercy on our nation, may we ask for forgiveness for our waywardness, and return to our first love of God, that our prayers may be answered from heaven. Return to God that He may return his mercy to us.

And ...

It will be like it was in the days of Noah (and Lot).

The righteous will be delivered the same day destruction comes on the unsuspecting.

It doesn't mean the conditions of the world at the time then will be the same. It means the pattern "deliverance on same day as destruction" will be repeated.

.

I agree with the above quotes wholeheartedly! People are going to be living their lives normally -- doing the everyday things they've always done. I don't see the time during the tribulation qualifying as being "normal". People will be always anticipating the next bad thing that will happen them. They will be living in utter despair.

But I Thess. 5:3 says, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." This tells me that people will be living in relative peace and quiet before the day of the Lord's wrath hits ... just as it was in the day of Noah. And true Christians will be delivered and taken out of the "sudden destruction" just as Noah and his family were.

I agree also, and when we take a close look at the word "SUDDEN" in 1 Thess. 5:3, we find that the Greek meaning is "unexpected, sudden, unforeseen." I think the only other place this word occurs in the New Testament is in Luke 21:34 where it means "unaware:"

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

The Lord doesn't warn those who are living in the last of the last days to take heed unto themselves lest their hearts be overcharged with fears from the manifestations of the tribulation judgments (trumpets, vials) etc, but to take heed against the normal "cares of this life." Sounds like a normal day on planet earth when the trumpet sounds, imho.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Actually Noah entered the ark 7 days prior to the flood.

Genesis 7:1-10
1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time.
2 “You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;
3 also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth.
4 “For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.”
5 Noah did according to all that the Lord had commanded him.
6 Now Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of water came upon the earth.
7 Then Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him entered the ark because of the water of the flood.
8 Of clean animals and animals that are not clean and birds and everything that creeps on the ground,
9 there went into the ark to Noah by twos, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 It came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth.

The people were living life as usual UNTIL Noah entered the Ark, the people of earth didn't understand why Noah entered the Ark, they did not believe all his warnings and calls to repent, until the flood came and took them all away.

Matthew 24:37-39
37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 “For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The world will be carrying on as usual until the Church is called out of this world, then the world will stop and take notice, however they will not understand until Christ returns to reign on the earth, because they have chosen not to believe the truth, they will instead believe a lie, and when Christ does visibly return for all to see, then they will understand. It will be just like the days of Noah.

RT