Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

No opposing arguments allowed

Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:20 pm

According to Paul in 2 Thessalonians, do most agree that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the believers?

I am curious if that is the "most common" understanding.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:03 pm

Good question, Mark. I have wondered if the Holy Spirit is the restrainer as well. But here is a couple of reasons for my confusion....

1) 2Th 2:6  And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 

I don't know if that is a minor discrepancy or not, but the "what" in verse 6 appears different than the "who" in verse 7.

2) Paul is certainly articulate enough to name the Holy Spirit if that's who he meant. Throughout the chapter, he names God and Jesus Christ by name, so it seems inconsistent for him to leave the "what" or "who" nameless.

Just some thoughts....
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29313
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:00 pm

So I have always heard that the "taken out of the way" then would be with the removal of the Church as He only indwells believers. I know the Holy Spirit will not be totally absent as He is omni-present, but in the capacity of active restraint of sin, as to allow rampant sin.

I see what you're pointing out, but Paul does refer to "him" and "he."

Is that consistent with what you've heard/believe?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby bchandler on Sat Jan 02, 2021 9:15 pm

In our day and age, I have long believed that the US and the free western powers were being used by God as the restrainer. I wonder if what we are going through with our current election might be part of the process of restraint being removed... And not just here, but in all of the western free republics and democracies. They are all under withering attack by people pushing a new kind of national socialism, in global form. And yes, it is a form of Nazism. With all of its public/private partnerships. So, it should come as no surprise that their attacks are also aimed at destroying religion. Especially Jews and Christians.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
User avatar
bchandler
 
Posts: 4113
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:22 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 am

Mark F wrote:I see what you're pointing out, but Paul does refer to "him" and "he."


Yes, he does. However, the translators of the 8 Bible versions I have in e-sword agree that those verses use a "small" h rather than a "capital" h. Paul uses a capital H when he references God or Jesus. That leads me to believe that since Paul is a Roman citizen and a Pharisee, his reference to the powerful restrainer is a political entity of some kind.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29313
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:50 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Mark F wrote:I see what you're pointing out, but Paul does refer to "him" and "he."


Yes, he does. However, the translators of the 8 Bible versions I have in e-sword agree that those verses use a "small" h rather than a "capital" h. Paul uses a capital H when he references God or Jesus. That leads me to believe that since Paul is a Roman citizen and a Pharisee, his reference to the powerful restrainer is a political entity of some kind.



Interesting. I honestly have never read or heard that. I'll read some commentaries on that portion of Scripture.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby slick on Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:27 am

Hello,
I have come to believe the restrainer is an angelic being likely MICHAEL the ARCHANGEL. and he is responsible for the protection of ISRAEL primarily keeping satan and his attempts to eradicate the Jewish at bay. the speaker in the 1st vs quoted is GABRIEL the angel.

DANIEL 10:13, 21 & DANIEL 12:1
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
"However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these [forces] except Michael your prince.
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands [guard] over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

First we see a conflict with GABRIEL and the forces of PERSIA so a question to ask is " can a human entity interfere with the goings on with angelic beings? I believe we would all say no..so the PRINCE of PERSIA must be a demonic being..

SECOND, we see MICHAEL arrive and assist GABRIEL and HE is called YOUR (JEWISH/ISRAELS) GREAT PRINCE...and at some time Michael is said to ARISE and the GREAT TRIBULATION and onslaught of A/C begins....

We know Paul drew much of his thought on O.T teaching and the special understanding He was given after His salvation..as well those whom He was instructing would well know who "he" was their guardian/protector thus Paul uses only the pronoun "he".

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!!
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!
Clarence
slick
 
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:51 pm

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:41 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Mark F wrote:I see what you're pointing out, but Paul does refer to "him" and "he."


Yes, he does. However, the translators of the 8 Bible versions I have in e-sword agree that those verses use a "small" h rather than a "capital" h. Paul uses a capital H when he references God or Jesus. That leads me to believe that since Paul is a Roman citizen and a Pharisee, his reference to the powerful restrainer is a political entity of some kind.


From looking at capitalization, that cannot be that Paul would have differentiated with lower and upper case as
the earliest manuscripts were majuscules, every letter was capitol. The only thing I found and surely not exhaustive,
was in Greek an "o" with a dot above it before the word god to mean "the god," Hebrew has no upper and lower case.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:42 am

slick wrote:Hello,
I have come to believe the restrainer is an angelic being likely MICHAEL the ARCHANGEL. and he is responsible for the protection of ISRAEL primarily keeping satan and his attempts to eradicate the Jewish at bay. the speaker in the 1st vs quoted is GABRIEL the angel.

DANIEL 10:13, 21 & DANIEL 12:1
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
"However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these [forces] except Michael your prince.
"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands [guard] over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

First we see a conflict with GABRIEL and the forces of PERSIA so a question to ask is " can a human entity interfere with the goings on with angelic beings? I believe we would all say no..so the PRINCE of PERSIA must be a demonic being..

SECOND, we see MICHAEL arrive and assist GABRIEL and HE is called YOUR (JEWISH/ISRAELS) GREAT PRINCE...and at some time Michael is said to ARISE and the GREAT TRIBULATION and onslaught of A/C begins....

We know Paul drew much of his thought on O.T teaching and the special understanding He was given after His salvation..as well those whom He was instructing would well know who "he" was their guardian/protector thus Paul uses only the pronoun "he".

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL!!
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!
Clarence


Thank you for this input, I will certainly consider it.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:09 am

Slick,
Wouldn't it be along the lines of restraining the revealing of the antichrist and the beginning of his reign of
terror against the Jews?

In Daniel 12:1 Michael stands up to protect the Jews after the AOD to protect them after the moving aside of the restrainer, and the a/c' reign of terror begins.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:23 am

Paul being a Pharisee, was aware of the power of the Sanhedrin. However the power of the Sanhedrin was also under the jurisdiction of Rome. Paul was also aware of the Papal power in Rome which claimed to be the spiritual power as opposed to the political power.

Not every convert to Judaism was aware of the OT scriptures; specifically that of Daniel. That said, why wouldn't Paul just use the name of Daniel and the prophetic words that would relate to the "restrainer?"
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29313
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:56 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Paul being a Pharisee, was aware of the power of the Sanhedrin. However the power of the Sanhedrin was also under the jurisdiction of Rome. Paul was also aware of the Papal power in Rome which claimed to be the spiritual power as opposed to the political power.

Not every convert to Judaism was aware of the OT scriptures; specifically that of Daniel. That said, why wouldn't Paul just use the name of Daniel and the prophetic words that would relate to the "restrainer?"


As in Michael?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Ready1 on Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:19 pm

Hi Mark F

Because this was asked in a Pre Trib Only forum, I was under the impression that you were asking the few PreTribbers for their answer. But it looks like you have a roundhouse answer. :grin:

From my perspective, since I am a firm believer that it is God's timetable that we are on, (and not Satan's timetable or man's timetable), it is my firm belief that God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, is the only One who has the capability of restraining the inherent evil couched in the hearts of unregenerate men who are ultimately the servants of Satan.

I understand, by this, the wonderful power that the New Testament Church plays in all this. The Holy Spirit resides in us, therefore we are the hands and feet of Jesus in our world today. What this means to me is that we are "salt and light" or "preservation and flavor, as well as illumination" in a dark (evil) and dying world.

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Part of the job of the Holy Spirit is threefold. He will “convict” the world of sin. He will convict the world of God's righteousness. He will convict the world of the coming judgment.

Joh 16:7 But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don't, the Advocate won't come. If I do go away, then I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when He comes, He will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment.
Joh 16:9 The world's sin is that it refuses to believe in Me.
Joh 16:10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see Me no more.
Joh 16:11 Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.
Joh 16:12 "There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own but will tell you what He has heard. He will tell you about the future.
Joh 16:14 He will bring Me glory by telling you whatever He receives from Me.
Joh 16:15 All that belongs to the Father is Mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever He receives from Me.'


How does the Holy Spirit convict (admonish against, rebuke, reprove) the world of its sin, of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgement? He does so by the Word of God and by the contrast of good versus evil. That is where the Church comes into play. It provides the contrast.

In our world today, Spirit controlled individuals are the only ones who have any hope of overcoming a sinful nature. As long as there are Spirit controlled men and women present in our world, there will be a contrast of good vs evil.
As such, I do not see the Church as the restrainer, but rather an outworking of the power of Christ which provides a graphic demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit, who I believe to be the restrainer.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2753
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Mark F on Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:20 pm

Ready1 wrote:Hi Mark F

Because this was asked in a Pre Trib Only forum, I was under the impression that you were asking the few PreTribbers for their answer. But it looks like you have a roundhouse answer. :grin:

From my perspective, since I am a firm believer that it is God's timetable that we are on, (and not Satan's timetable or man's timetable), it is my firm belief that God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, is the only One who has the capability of restraining the inherent evil couched in the hearts of unregenerate men who are ultimately the servants of Satan.

I understand, by this, the wonderful power that the New Testament Church plays in all this. The Holy Spirit resides in us, therefore we are the hands and feet of Jesus in our world today. What this means to me is that we are "salt and light" or "preservation and flavor, as well as illumination" in a dark (evil) and dying world.

Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Part of the job of the Holy Spirit is threefold. He will “convict” the world of sin. He will convict the world of God's righteousness. He will convict the world of the coming judgment.

Joh 16:7 But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don't, the Advocate won't come. If I do go away, then I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when He comes, He will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment.
Joh 16:9 The world's sin is that it refuses to believe in Me.
Joh 16:10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see Me no more.
Joh 16:11 Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.
Joh 16:12 "There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own but will tell you what He has heard. He will tell you about the future.
Joh 16:14 He will bring Me glory by telling you whatever He receives from Me.
Joh 16:15 All that belongs to the Father is Mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever He receives from Me.'


How does the Holy Spirit convict (admonish against, rebuke, reprove) the world of its sin, of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgement? He does so by the Word of God and by the contrast of good versus evil. That is where the Church comes into play. It provides the contrast.

In our world today, Spirit controlled individuals are the only ones who have any hope of overcoming a sinful nature. As long as there are Spirit controlled men and women present in our world, there will be a contrast of good vs evil.
As such, I do not see the Church as the restrainer, but rather an outworking of the power of Christ which provides a graphic demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit, who I believe to be the restrainer.

I do want to go in a pre-trib direction but but discussion is welcome, just no debate. Every view has these passages
in their Bibles too :grin:

I agree it is on God's timeline not the evil one's.

So in your view , if the Church is removed, there will be no noticeable changes in the world
until some point that God would just move aside His restraining power?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
Mark F
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby 4givenmuch on Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:45 pm

bchandler wrote:In our day and age, I have long believed that the US and the free western powers were being used by God as the restrainer. I wonder if what we are going through with our current election might be part of the process of restraint being removed... And not just here, but in all of the western free republics and democracies. They are all under withering attack by people pushing a new kind of national socialism, in global form. And yes, it is a form of Nazism. With all of its public/private partnerships. So, it should come as no surprise that their attacks are also aimed at destroying religion. Especially Jews and Christians.


Intriguing parallel...
Seek Humility!
User avatar
4givenmuch
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 3226
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:42 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby slick on Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:31 am

Mark F wrote:Slick,
Wouldn't it be along the lines of restraining the revealing of the antichrist and the beginning of his reign of
terror against the Jews?

In Daniel 12:1 Michael stands up to protect the Jews after the AOD to protect them after the moving aside of the restrainer, and the a/c' reign of terror begins.

Hello Mark,
The term in Daniel "STANDS UP" is a bit confusing but its not a far leap to "ARISES: IN THESS. we see also in 2 Thes.. that GODS SENDS THEM (UNSAVED) A STRONG DELUSION THAT MEN WOULD BELIEVE A LIE" It doesnt seem that the "he" and the "GREAT DELUSION" sent by GOD are the same.
In His Name,
The Battle Rages Til The Lion Roars!,
Clarence
slick
 
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:51 pm

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:41 am

Mark F wrote:According to Paul in 2 Thessalonians, do most agree that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the believers?

I am curious if that is the "most common" understanding.

2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 


Here's how I see this.

God has promised His children, those who love Him, those who are called according to His purpose, He has told us that all things work together for our good. Therefore, He Must be restraining the evil that cannot be worked for our good.

It's a very intruiging verse! "The one holding down now until out of the middle it may become"

God is protecting His children by restraining evils in this world, until He is no longer needed to stand between the world and His children. Until such a time as His children no longer need protecting against the evils in this world!

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 14079
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Ready1 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:28 pm

Mark F wrote:So in your view , if the Church is removed, there will be no noticeable changes in the world
until some point that God would just move aside His restraining power?


No, I can't say that. The simple fact is that when there is a removal of the "hands and feet of Jesus" then the changes will be astonishing. Evil will become pervasive, rampant, and overwhelming.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2753
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Do most agree The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Churc

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:52 pm

I would agree that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit acting through the Church.

Had this discussion years ago here's the link that shows why I think so:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=69925&p=579898#p579898

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 4100
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm


Return to Pre-trib view only

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest