revised pre trib view- explained

No opposing arguments allowed

revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:43 am

Not sure If this is okay, to link to another site, so Mods, if not then feel free to remove this post.

I shared my view on a revised pre trib timeline here:

Link removed per Rule #4

Edited to add:
So I decided to take the Moderators advice and am copy and pasting my part of the discussion from the other board here
So please read on below.

RT
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby burien1 on Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:08 am

I'm sorry RT, but it is against the board rules. Maybe you could copy and paste it here ? :(

#4. No linking to other discussion boards.
Psalm 119:105; Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
User avatar
burien1
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 8691
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:57 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:54 am

burien1 wrote:I'm sorry RT, but it is against the board rules. Maybe you could copy and paste it here ? :(

#4. No linking to other discussion boards.


No Problem, wasn't sure. Thanks

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:00 am

Hi everyone, so I was encouraged to share my ideas concerning a revised pretrib rapture view on another discussion board, since I cannot link to that board I decided I would do as burien1 suggested and copy and paste it here .

Let me first start by saying that I do not believe I have a corner on knowledge when it comes to the prophetic timeline. I am just seeking understanding just like everyone else here. I fully understand that some of what I propose is subjective and speculative. I could have it all wrong. You can be the judge, and I am open to correction.

My journey into study started back in 2006. It's a long story, but through a series of events the Lord led me to study prophecy, being led by a sense of urgency and a desire to sort out the timing of events. I was saved 40 years ago, primarily because of teaching going on at the time concerning end times. I had always followed the traditional pretrib model. But as I began to study I found some inconsistencies that I had a difficult time reconciling. For a short time I was beginning to think that mid trib was a better view, but that too had problems. After thousands of hours of study, and debate at other sites (including here at FP), I ended up writing a full commentary on the book of revelation. Needless to say the Holy Spirit did a major work of revival in me, which has been one of the most awesome experiences in my life, hands down! So that in a nutshell is how I came to a revised version of a pretrib rapture timeline.

so what follows is what I posted, broken into separate posts and leaving out other discussion but my own.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:01 am

So let me begin first by just laying out the way I see the timeline then I will show through scripture why I believe this to be true:

Seals 1-4- have already been opened- the four horses.
Seal 5- represents the resurrection of the dead in Christ (seal 5 and 6 happen in very close succession and are imminent)
Seal 6- represents the rapture of the church, the start of the sealing of the 144,000
Seal 7-silence in heaven for "about a half hour"-represents the start of the 70th week and the first 3.5 years, the two witnesses begin their ministry,
*false prophet and antichrist enter onto the prophetic world stage, begin to establish new mark of beast system.

Trumpet 1- 1/3 of earth/trees burned up, all grass burned (hail and fire mixed with blood thrown to earth)
Trumpet 2- 1/3 of sea turned to blood, 1/3 sea creatures killed, 1/3 ships destroyed (great burning mountain falls to earth)
Trumpet 3- 1/3 fresh waters poisoned, many die. (great burning star falls to earth)
Trumpet 4- 1/3 sun/moon/stars struck, 1/3 day and night darkened

(these trumpets I believe will sound also very close together, and would come just before the midpoint of the 70th week, also the sealing of the 144,000 will be completed before these trumpeters sound)

Trumpet 5- the first woe- bottomless pit opened, stinging locusts torment men for five months
Trumpet 6- the second woe- four angels released to kill 1/3 of mankind with fire ( I believe that those who are killed may be the tribulation martyrs)
*The seven thunders- this IMO represents the end of God's work among the gentiles and the start of His plan to redeem Israel
Trumpet 7- the third woe- The devil thrown down to earth, The Antichrist kills the two witnesses, commits the abomination of desolation, and unleashes his wrath toward the children of the "woman"

Bowl 1- malignant sores on those who bear the mark of the beast
Bowl 2- all water of the sea turned to blood, every living thing in it dies.
Bowl 3- all fresh water becomes like blood
Bowl 4- suns heat intensified to scorch men
Bowl 5- kingdom of the "beast" darkened with a darkness that causes pain
Bowl 6- Euphrates river dried up to make way for kings from the east ( Battle of Armageddon )
Bowl 7- "it is done" Babylon destroyed, huge hailstones, greatest earthquake...etc..

Return of Christ
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:05 am

First of all the timing.

One very important detail about the Revelation that I think many overlook, is that the place John is called up to in heaven is the heavenly tabernacle which served as the pattern for the earthly tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. The heavenly tabernacle is the seat of God's throne and the one on earth which is patterned after it serves as His footstool, the Ark of the covenant in particular. (1 Chron. 28:2, Ps. 99:5, Isaiah 66:1)

So when John enters the heavenly tabernacle, holy place, we find that he sees things that correlate to what was in the earthly tabernacle/temple. The seven flames of fire, the sea, the altar of incense, the cherubim.

Now many people believe that what John first sees is a future event, but I tend to believe that he was actually shown an event from his past.

Let's look at two different passages:

Revelation 4:5

5Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

Revelation 5:6

6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

You notice that both passages have something in common: "the seven spirits of God". In the first passage we see them described as seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, this is represented in the tabernacle on earth by the seven branched menorah. But in the other verse the seven spirits are described as seven horns and seven eyes on the Lamb that is standing as if slain. Why the difference in description? I think the obvious answer is that John is witnessing Christ's entrance into the heavenly Holy place after He was crucified and resurrected. What John sees is the transition from the Old Covenant era to the New Covenant era from a heavenly perspective. Isn't it interesting that we get a picture of this transition in the upper room, when the disciples receive the Holy Spirit which appears to them as flames of fire! Also in the passage we see that in fact the new song sung by the elders and living creatures reflects the New Covenant too.
Revelation 5:9–10

9And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

you will notice that they literally sing the song of the New Covenant, for reference see Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary as the Lamb that was slain to redeem mankind, from every tribe tongue and nation, they are made to be a kingdom and priests to God. I would add that Hebrews tells us that this event only happened once. It will not happen again. Christ will never enter heaven as the Lamb standing as if slain again.

also note what John says at the beginning of the book of Revelation

Revelation 1:4–6

4John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

John writes that we, believers of the New Covenant, have been made a kingdom, priests to God. John says this is something that has already happened, for those believers he was writing to. So we must realize that what John witnesses in Revelation 4 is in fact the inauguration of the New Covenant in Christ, not an event from the future but rather an event from John's past. Once I saw this I could not get over how obvious it is. But when you have seen it standing on a different foundation for years, it is obscured.

I point this out because when we realize that John saw Christ entering heaven after His death and resurrection, we have a different perspective on the timing of the opening of the seals on the scroll.

Others have pointed out that they think the seals correlate to the colored horses that Zechariah 1 talks about, you can look it up for yourself. I would agree except that like the change in the Holy Spirit, I believe that there was a change in how these horses are sent out. Like the Spirit is now sent out by the Lamb, so too the seal horses and riders are now sent out by the Lamb as He removes the seals from the scroll. Since the riders were active during the Old Covenant era, my belief is that they continued to be active under the New Covenant era, the difference is that they are now subject to Christ.
1 Peter 3:21–22

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


Therfore I would assert that the four horses and riders have been active under the authority of Christ since His resurrection, and that their affects have been seen on earth since that time.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:07 am

A question came up on the other discussion board about the identity of the 24 elders, what follows is my response:

I will get to this in more depth later on, but the short answer for now is that I believe the 24 elders are the spiritual counterpart to the earthly Jewish priesthood. Remember the heavenly tabernacle serves as the pattern for the earthly one. Therefore we should see an earthly counterpart to what John encounters when he is called up into it. There were 24 divisions of priests at the time of Christ, divided according to families. Which would serve as the earthly counterpart to the heavenly pattern, which I believe are the 24 elders.The high priest (on earth) wore a golden crown and white garments when he entered into the holy place on yom kippur/ the day of atonement. The 24 heavenly elders I believe act as a heavenly council of elders. That they cast their crowns before the throne is an act of subjection to God's authority IMO. There was also a council of elders associated with the earthly temple. (Luke 22:66, Acts 6: 12, 22:5) and they sat on thrones. We are told in Matthew 19: 28 that in the Millennial Kingdom the 12 disciples will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. We are also told in Revelation 20:4 that thrones will be set up and those who sit on them will render judgement. So this idea is consistent with the purpose of the 24 elders, they act as a council to render judgement.

I do not believe them to be resurrected saints. In fact we are never told that those saints mentioned in Matthew that were raised from the dead were actually resurrected into heaven, it is my view that they rose from the dead like Lazarus and went on to live mortal lives. I think Hebrews might make mention of them here:
Hebrews 11:35

35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;


In addition the 24 elders are seen sitting on their thrones in the heavenly tabernacle before John sees Jesus enter as the Lamb that was slain, and therefore they could not be resurrected saints, because Jesus was the first to be resurrected into the heavenly tabernacle. If I am correct in the idea that what John sees is the initiation of the New Covenant in Christ, then it would be impossible that the 24 elders could be resurrected saints.

Consider this passage:

Revelation 4:9–11

9And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
Here the elders give glory to God, the creator, they subject themselves to His authority


Revelation 5:8–10
(parenthesis mine)
8When He (Jesus) had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Here after the Lamb enters you see them now falling down before Him in subjection.

You see that when Jesus died and was raised into the heavenly tabernacle He was handed the kingdom,
Ephesians 1:20–23

20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.



after His work is completed He will hand the kingdom back over to God the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:24

24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:09 am

Okay now for the identity of the four horsemen of the seals

I think the first horse and rider is the one that people have trouble identifying. The other three are fairly easy. But before we get into it, I want to first talk about their purpose.

The white horse and rider takes freedom from the world
the red horse and rider takes peace from the world
the black horse and rider takes food and sustenance from the world
the ashen horse and riders take life from the world

But why do they do this? Other than the fact that they are sent out by the Lamb when He removes their seal from the scroll. That is where we need to look at the Old Testament where we see in Zechariah other horses and riders. Zechariah is confronted with a vision of three colored horses and their riders he asks the Lord what they are?
Zechariah 1:9–11

9Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” And the angel who was speaking with me said to me, “I will show you what these are.” 10And the man who was standing among the myrtle trees answered and said, “These are those whom the LORD has sent to patrol the earth.” 11So they answered the angel of the LORD who was standing among the myrtle trees and said, “We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth is peaceful and quiet.”

From this passage we see that their purpose is to "patrol the earth". Later in Zechariah 6 we see more colored horses, but this time they are in teams, pulling 4 chariots. The horses were colored Red, black, white and dappled, again Zechariah asks, what they are? He gets an answer:

Zechariah 6:5–8

5The angel replied to me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth, 6with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; and the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country. 7“When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth.” And He said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8Then He cried out to me and spoke to me saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”

So here we see that they patrol the earth and those heading north ( the black and white horses) appease the wrath of God. That word "appease" means that they quite God's wrath.

So we can assume, that the seal horses and riders serve the same function. They are spiritual entities (spirits of heaven) that influence geopolitical events on earth. Much like the "princes" of Persia and Greece in the book of Daniel. (Daniel 10:20)

Now to the identity of that first rider, we know that he possesses a crown, and a bow and he goes out conquering. His job is to conquer. Typically this is done by nations and their leaders, hence the crown of authority.

If we look at the fourth seal and riders we get a clue as to the identity of this rider

Revelation 6:8

8I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

You will notice that the fourth horsemen's job is to kill, they have authority over one fourth of the earth to carry out their task, but how do they accomplish it? The do it by employing the talents of the other horses and riders- with the sword, with famine and what's this..... Pestilence and wild beasts??? The word "pestilence" in the Greek means death, so they kill with sword (seal 2) , famine (seal 3), death (seal 4) and wait.....wild beasts? Could these wild beasts be related to the first horse and rider?

I say resoundingly....yes! These are not wild animals of earth, like lions and tigers and bears (oh my!). They are wild beast nations, that go out conquering other peoples and nations.

Daniel gives us great detail about the "beasts" that will rule over the Jewish people namely Babylon, Media- Persia, Greece and Rome.

Look at this passage:

Ezekiel 14:21

21For thus says the Lord GOD, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague to cut off man and beast from it!


here you see the same effects of the seal horses being employed, notice that the word "beast(s)" appears twice, however they are not the same Hebrew word. The first word is "chayah" and means "live" it has with its meaning the idea that life is sustained or preserved, the second is the word "bahema" and means "mute" (beasts that cannot speak) this would be actual animals. So these "wild beasts" devour nations, in order to preserve them? Well yes isn't that what happened to Israel when they went to in Egypt during the famine and were reunited with Joseph? And also in Babylon, etc.... and even today as they are dispersed around the world? Yes these beasts will be used to also bring about death. But remember what their purpose is, to appease God's wrath. Sometimes God has to remove people in order to stay His wrath.

One day it will not be so:

Ezekiel 34:27–28

27“Also the tree of the field will yield its fruit and the earth will yield its increase, and they will be secure on their land. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bars of their yoke and have delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28“They will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them; but they will live securely, and no one will make them afraid.

So the first horse rider is the spiritual entity that influences rulers of the earth to conquer other peoples and nations.
the Second horse and rider is the spiritual entity that influences nations to war with one another
the third horse and rider is the spiritual entity that influences food production and economies
the fourth horse and riders take life using the effects of the first three, he rides in tandem with the others and singles out those who will perish because of the effects they bring onto the earth.

Could the first rider be responsible for influencing ISIS..... yes, Iran..... yes. Russia..... yes and on it goes. Throughout time these entities have been granted authority to patrol the earth. They influence events on earth at any given time. Since the day that Jesus was handed the scroll and He assumed the kingdom of God.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:13 am

On to seal 5

Revelation 6:9–11

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.


John sees the souls of those martyred for their faith "under the altar", let's take this bit first.

So what altar is John looking at? That would be the altar of incense, this altar serves as the pattern for the altar of incense in the temple:
Revelation 8:3–4

3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

I shared this idea before, that these souls (of the righteous dead) reside within a level of heaven under the throne room of the heavenly tabernacle, I believe within the crystal sea, where paradise is. The golden altar of incense acts as an intercom of sorts, with the smoke rising off it, conveying the prayers of those within paradise. It is important to note that John sees them as "souls" of the dead, they have not been regenerated when he first sees them. Their "prayer" is heard, they are asking God how long until avenges them. More on that in a moment. But what happens next is very curious, John sees them receive a white robe.

That word "white" in the Greek means "brilliant white light". They are not clothed in ordinary robes, these robes shine!

2 Corinthians 5:1–2

1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,

1 Corinthians 15:50–53

50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Daniel 12:2–3

2“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3“Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Often throughout the New Testament we see passages that tell us about angels appearing in white shining garments to people on earth. To the two Mary's at the tomb in Matthew 28, , Mary when she entered the tomb in John 20, at the ascension in Acts 1, and to Cornelius in Acts 10:30. We also see the same type of raiment worn by those who reside within the heavenly tabernacle, the 24 elders, the multitudes in Rev. 7, the seven angels who carry the seven bowls in Rev 15, and also the bride of the lamb in Rev 19:

Revelation 19:7–8

7“Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

The word "bright" in the Greek has the same meaning as the word for "white". The finest linen, bright and clean would be white in color. This garment we are told is their righteousness. White shining garments of light are the heavenly raiment, worn by all who enter into or reside in the heavenly holy place, where only the righteous can enter. Those martyrs who cry out at the opening of the fifth seal are given this raiment.

We also see that when Jesus was transfigured that He began to shine, the three disciples were given a glimpse of the glorified Christ:

Mark 9:2–3

2Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; 3and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them.

Matthew 17:2

2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

Luke 9:29

29And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming.


I believe what John witnesses is the resurrection of the dead in Christ. That he only sees martyrs does not mean that others are not resurrected with them, it is only the martyrs who cry out for vengeance, that was the focus for John.

cont'd...
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:18 am

5th seal cont'd...

SO let's look at the cry of these martyred souls
Revelation 6:10

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”


They are asking God to avenge them . We know that that is one of the purposes of the 70th week:
2 Thessalonians 1:5–10

5This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Then after they are given their robes (resurrected to receive their regenerated glorified body) they are told to rest a bit longer, until :

Revelation 6:11b

11.....until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.



Many look at these martyrs and claim that they are in fact the tribulation saints, but that is not what I see. I believe them to be those who are in Christ who have been martyred for their faith in Him throughout the church age. There is nothing in the passage that would indicate that these are those martyred during the tribulation, whereas later John describes those tribulation saints raised to life in clear terms as we shall see in a moment. These fifth seal martyrs are told to wait until their number is completed, their fellow servants and brethren die like they did, as martyrs. How can they be the tribulation saints and also be told that others will die like them? If they were the martyrs from the tribulation then who would follow them to complete their number, wouldn't their number already be completed?

We can see when this completion takes place later in the Revelation when the angel of the waters proclaims how the Lord has exacted His vengeance:

Revelation 16:5–7

5And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” 7And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

Every time we hear or see something connected to the altar it is concerning an event that is connected to the completion of the martyrs and the exaction of God's vengeance on those who are responsible for their blood.

Revelation 8, just before the trumpets are sounded an angel takes incense from the altar in a censer and adds to it fire and throws it down to earth
Revelation 9, at the sound of the sixth trumpet a voice rises off the altar calling for the release of the four angels bound at the Euphrates, these go on to kill 1/3 of mankind, I think that these killed are the tribulation saints, those not killed do not repent. (Laying the foundation for the completion of the martyrs)
Revelation 14, the angel who has power over fire comes out from the altar, calling for the reaper to reap the wicked. (Armageddon)

After this reaping of the wicked, we see in chapter 15;

Revelation 15:2

2And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

This is the resurrection of the tribulation saints, which corresponds and is the same event spoken of in Revelation 20:4, their number is now completed. We see here that there is no question that they are those who died as martyrs during the 70th week. The same is true for the passage in Rev. 20.

Before the reaping we see an angel proclaiming doom for those who worship the beast and take his number. We are told that they will suffer the wrath of God. Then we hear a voice from heaven saying blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on:

Revelation 14:12–13

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”



What helps those who face death in Christ, persevere? Knowing that they will have rest from their labors, because their deeds are righteous and are what causes them to be clothed in those glorified white robes. The fifth seal martyrs are told to continue resting, until their number is completed, they entered into their rest when they died and remained souls, and continue to rest in their glorified state while the events of the tribulation unfold and now these others will follow them and die as they did for the testimony of Christ complete their number. Their souls will enter into the place under the altar, until they are resurrected to join the other saints in the heavenly tabernacle, at the end of the 70th week.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:22 am

the sixth seal.
Revelation 6:12–17

12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


There is a whole lot in here, but I want to start by saying that I think that the fifth and sixth seals are removed around the same time and that they represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ (5th seal) and the rapture of those who are alive and remain (6th seal). But before I get into the rapture I want to look at some of the physical effects on the earth that result from the sixth seal's removal.


Great earthquake
Sun became black as sackcloth made of hair
whole moon became like blood
stars fall from sky to earth
sky split
every mountain and island moved from their place

Some folks will look at these effects and notice how similar they are to the effects that occur later in the Revelation (Rev 16:18-20) and also the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:29-31). As a result they place the timing of the removal of the sixth seal to coincide with these other events. Though they look similar, a careful reading shows that they are in fact not the same effects. More on that later. These effects result from the removal of the sixth seal from the scroll. I believe they will result from the same cataclysmic event, which I believe is the rapture. Though I do concede that these events may not all happen at the same time, they could be spread out over time, by weeks or even months.

You have a great earthquake, in scripture, earthquakes often accompany resurrection events.

You have the sun appearing blackened as if it is covered with sackcloth made of hair. Now sackcloth was made of animal hair, typically goat hair, which is very course. People made sacks from it,hence the name, but they would also wear it during times of mourning, because it kept the wearer in a constant state of discomfort. It was rough and itchy. It had a loose weave, and light could penetrate through it. So when John describes the sun in this way, it is not completely darkened like it is at the time of Christ's visible return at the end of the 70th week. It also doesn't seem to be caused by an eclipse but rather by some environmental factor, such as smoke, or even ash from a volcanic eruption , it could also be the result of the stars falling, as in meteor or asteroid collisions with the earth? Here's an interesting about a "dark" day that occurred in the 18th century. www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18097177

The whole moon became like blood. This too is a moon that is still visible, though darkened, it is not devoid of light. Note that because John describes the moon as "whole" that the timing of this event occurs at the full moon. A blood red moon can also be caused by other factors other than an eclipse, it can also be caused by ash particles suspended in the air.

Stars fall from the sky to earth. Stars are sometimes symbolic for people or angelic entities in scripture. But I would suggest that this is a physical visible effect on earth, they may be meteors or asteroids. It seems that there are many but not an abundance, the passage says that they fall like unripe figs fall from a tree shaken by a great wind. This could also be a clue as to what time of year this may happen, unripe figs would show a fig tree of spring. Interestingly Jesus shares the parable of the fig tree in connection with events of the end times and His return. That fig tree is also depicted as a tree in springtime.

The sky is split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up. The parallel passage to this is in Isaiah

Isaiah 34:3–4

3So their slain will be thrown out, And their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched with their blood. 4And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.

Because this sign is shown here in Isaiah in connection with the Lord's return to earth, many again place the sixth seal's removal at the end of the 70th week. But you will notice that the analogy of the fig tree is somewhat different. Th e Isaiah passage shows a fig tree in the fall, a post harvest tree, whereas the 6th seal shows a pre-harvest tree of spring. Now perhaps I take this analogy a bit too far, but it is true that scripture uses the fig tree to symbolize the nation of Israel (Jer 24:1-10, Hosea 9:10, ) Jesus curses the fig tree (Mark 11: 13-14) and most commentaries say that this corresponds to the idea that the nation of Israel failed to bear spiritual fruit, by rejecting their savior. The fig tree at the opening of the sixth seal may depict the nation of Israel in it's pre-harvest condition before the events of the tribulation produce spiritual fruit. Whereas the events at the end of the 70th week, show Israel in a post harvest condition, after it has yielded its spiritual fruit. I believe that there is a reason that the events of the sixth seal and this passage in Isaiah are so similar and yet analogous to different seasons of the fig tree. That reason is because they are in fact different events. More on this idea in my next post. What the sky being split actually is, I cannot say, some say a nuclear bomb. I tend to believe that people on earth will actually get a glimpse of heaven opened up to receive the body of Christ. When Jesus was "caught up" at His ascension, people witnessed it. They saw Jesus being received by a cloud. Moses saw into the heavenly throne room on mount Sinai. Contrary to what many scholars think, I do not think the rapture will be a secret event, I think people on earth will see something- the sky will be split. They may not understand what they are seeing and misinterpret it to mean something else,or even be deceived into believing it is something else happening.

Every mountain and Island are moved from their place- this may be the result of the great earthquake, it is a fact that earthquakes cause land masses to shift from their places. The 2011 earthquake in Japan for instance, moved its coastline 8 feet. It also caused a slight shift in the earth's axis (6.5 inches), shortening the day by about 2 microseconds. Imagine a global earthquake, one can only imagine what kind of impact this could have on the earth. This earthquake however will pale in comparison to the one that occurs later in the 70th week.

Revelation 16:18–20

18And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. 19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Note the difference in the description here. It is described as the greatest earthquake to ever happen, causing the "great city" to be split into three parts, nations fall, every island flees, they don't just move from their place, they run as if escaping, the mountains are not found, they completely disappear. Now Islands and mountains can also be used metaphorically in scripture to describe nations and kingdoms. Whether or not these are allegorical descriptors matters not, it is what we see happening to these islands and mountains that is relevant to show the differences in events. At the sixth seal they are moved from their places, after the pouring of the seventh bowl the run away, and are no longer found. A striking difference in terms.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:25 am

So a question came up concerning the fig tree, many see the rebirth of Israel as a nation as a fulfillment of the fig tree parable in Matthew, however I have a slightly different view on this,


First just want to share some interesting facts about fig trees:

You see the fig tree is an interesting kind of fruit bearing tree. The first ripe figs appear in late spring/early summer. These grow on the old wood or the previous year's growth. The early or first fruits are not as numerous or sweet as the fruit of the second crop that ripens later on the new growth in late summer through September. Unlike other fruit trees, figs cannot ripen once they are picked so they need to fully ripen on the tree. The fruit is easily damaged and must be picked carefully. One method still used today, is that a cloth or net is opened above the ground beneath the tree, while a stick is used to strike the branches to knock the fruit from the tree. The fruit falls into the net, where it lands undamaged.

Those unripe figs may represent people of the nation of Israel who die prematurely or in an untimely manner, before the nation of Israel bears its spiritual fruit. The "mighty wind" we are told is what makes them "fall" . There are many watchers who see some kind of battle that precedes or coincides with the rapture. This may be what causes the unripe figs to fall, so to speak.

The figs in my opinion represent the people of Israel, and in particular their spiritual viability, read the following passage:

Jeremiah 24:1–10

1After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, and the officials of Judah with the craftsmen and smiths from Jerusalem and had brought them to Babylon, the LORD showed me: behold, two baskets of figs set before the temple of the LORD! 2One basket had very good figs, like first-ripe figs, and the other basket had very bad figs which could not be eaten due to rottenness. 3Then the LORD said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” And I said, “Figs, the good figs, very good; and the bad figs, very bad, which cannot be eaten due to rottenness.” 4Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5“Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘Like these good figs, so I will regard as good the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans. 6‘For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them again to this land; and I will build them up and not overthrow them, and I will plant them and not pluck them up. 7‘I will give them a heart to know Me, for I am the LORD; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart. 8‘But like the bad figs which cannot be eaten due to rottenness—indeed, thus says the LORD—so I will abandon Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land and the ones who dwell in the land of Egypt. 9‘I will make them a terror and an evil for all the kingdoms of the earth, as a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse in all places where I will scatter them. 10‘I will send the sword, the famine and the pestilence upon them until they are destroyed from the land which I gave to them and their forefathers.’ ”

You see the "good figs" (the captives of Judah) are to be planted once again in the land (Jerusalem/Israel) to never be plucked up again. They will be given a heart to know God, they will be His people and He will be their God, they will return to Him with their whole heart. This has yet to happen. You see they are still spiritual captives of ("mystery") Babylon. It isn't their political rebirth as a nation that the scripture looks for, it is their spiritual rebirth.

So the spring tree with it's unripe figs, shows that the spiritual fruit is beginning to grow, but is not yet fully ripe. Therefore we know that the spiritual harvest of Israel has not yet begun. Therefore the events described at the removal of the 6th seal happen before the events of the 70th week work to create the spiritual produce of the nation of Israel.

As previously noted, there are two crops for the fig tree, and as we see in prophecy, there are also two harvests of Israel. The first spiritual harvest (the firstfruits) are the 144,000, which are sealed at the beginning of the 70th week.

Revelation 14:3–4

3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

While the second harvest which is gathered in late summer/ fall is made up of the rest of the nation of Israel that enters into the millennial kingdom to settle the land once again just as Jeremiah says.

Isaiah 11:11–12

11Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. 12And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:27 am

continuing with the 6th seal

Let's continue on with the passage:
Revelation 6:15–17

15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

There are a few very intriguing things to note in this passage, first of all, this is the one and only time throughout the whole Revelation that we hear from the people on earth. This is a complete departure in the narrative. Up until this point we have heard words from John, from Jesus as He dictated the letters to the churches to John, from the 24 elders, from the four living creatures. But oddly here in chapter 6 we hear these people on earth speak, to me at least, it stands in stark contrast to the rest of the book. What is it that they say?

They hid themselves in caves and the rocks of the mountains and ask the mountains and rocks to fall on them and hide them from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb!, They claim to say this because they believe that the day of their great wrath has come.

This is incredible on so many levels. You have the ungodly hiding in fear from the presence of God, in the belief that the day of God's wrath is upon them. Now we have to remember who these people are. They are mentioned again later in the Revelation:

Revelation 19:17–19

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” 19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

In chapter 6 at the removal of the sixth seal, you see these people hiding in fear from God, then later you see them gathered in rebellion and defiance on the battlefield to make war against Him. One very good bit of information that shows us that the sixth seal and the events here in chapter 19 cannot be the same events, as some believe. You cannot have the same group of people cowering and hiding in terror and fear from God, and also gathering in open rebellion to make war against God. I find it interesting that the only folks absent from the list in chapter 19 are the rich, which I presume is because throughout the great tribulation they would have lost their wealth by this point in time.

We know that these people consist of those who will respond to God by rebelling and making war against Him, we know that these are those who will follow the beast, they will take the mark, they are numbered with the wicked. They say that the wrath of the Lamb and God has come. Are we to believe that this is in fact true? This idea doesn't come from one of the 24 elders or any of the four living creatures, who have been speaking to John in the heavenly tabernacle, it comes from those who are counted as unrighteous before God! If the sixth seal is removed before the tribulation, before the 70th week even begins, before Christ's return to earth to bring retribution and vengeance upon the wicked. Before the Day of the Lord ensues, why are these folks making this claim?

Every reference in scripture to the Day of the Lord is connected with the wrath of God and the return of Christ to establish His kingdom on earth. We know the wrath of God does not come until the later half of the 70th week, when the bowls are poured out in judgment.

I would again assert that there is a reason why the end of the week looks so similar to its beginning. I believe that those left on earth at the time of the rapture will be deceived into believing that the beginning of the 70th week is actually its end. We see in Thessalonians 2, how believers were falsely being told that the day of the Lord had come, that somehow they missed the "ingathering", but Paul lays out a clear road map of all the signposts that lead up to that "Day", demonstrating to them that it had in fact not come. That they had not missed the gathering together to Christ (AKA the rapture). Paul tells the Thessalonians that the "lawless one" will come in accordance with the activity of Satan with lying signs and wonders and with "all deception" for those who perish because they did not receive the truth so as to be saved.

In the world today there are few people who don't have some knowledge, however limited, of eschatology, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or other religious paradigm. There are many faiths that expect cataclysmic world events to be followed by the appearance of some kind of world Savior. Most cultures have some idea of what the Christian and Jewish eschatological view is. They have heard of Armageddon, they know something about the "day of wrath". There are many who have Christian family members who who have shared these ideas with them or they have heard on TV or radio. I believe that the events of the sixth seal will set up the circumstances (deluding influence) and conditions to facilitate the greatest deception ever perpetrated on mankind. The Lawless One will claim that somehow Armageddon will have been averted, that the rapture was a necessary event in order to remove those from among mankind so that they can now advance to the New Age, and experience the great "shift" in evolution, man's shift toward achieving his own deification. I believe that is the clue we receive from these who hide themselves from God at the opening of the 6th seal. These frightening events do look very similar to events that happen at the end of the 70th week. It is easy to imagine how this deception could play out perfectly, with the Antichrist perceived to be that Savior figure so many are waiting for, including and especially the Jews, who are central characters in the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the end times.

So there is this odd passage in Luke, that seems out of place as Jesus is on His way to be crucified:

Luke 23:27–31

27And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him. 28But Jesus turning to them said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29“For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.’ 30“Then they will begin TO SAY TO THE MOUNTAINS, ‘FALL ON US,’ AND TO THE HILLS, ‘COVER US.’ 31“For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Here again you see the same reference to the "green" tree of spring and the "dry" tree of late fall. Jesus talks about a future time when these women should weep for themselves and their children, a time when they will wish that they never brought children into the world. He basically says, that people will behave prematurely, they will desire the mountains and hills to hide them when the spiritual fruit of the nation has not yet been brought forth. If they behave so before the harvest how will they behave when the harvest is over? If they desire to hide themselves before the great tribulation even starts, what will happen when the events of the tribulation transpire? Jesus told the people not long before His crucifixion when they can expect to become woeful mothers; after the Abomination of Desolation, when great tribulation comes upon the world:

Matthew 24:15–21

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17“Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:29 am

continuing with the 6th seal.

Revelation 7:1–3

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”


This passage is often labeled as an "interlude" in our Bibles. I see it as part of the effect of the removal of the 6th seal from the scroll. These are the effects that transpire in heaven. John describes angels, holding back the four winds of earth. The four corners of the earth would indicate that they have jurisdiction over the four cardinal directions- North, South, East and West. The implication if taken literally, appears to be that no wind would blow on earth anywhere, which is a pretty remarkable phenomena if true. John tells us in this passage that these angels are granted the power to harm the earth and sea and trees. But that before they do so the bond servants of God must be sealed on their foreheads, presumably by the angel who John sees ascending from the rising of the sun having the seal of God. John tells us in the following passage who is to be sealed:
Revelation 7:4–8

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

Twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are to receive the seal of God. One hundred and forty four thousand in all. Curiously the tribe of Dan is missing from the list with Manasseh added in his place. Manasseh was Joseph's younger son who received the birth right from Israel before his death. I am not sure why this change is noted here. In any case we know that this sealing takes place before the earth, sea and trees are harmed, so before the trumpets sound and their effects are seen on the earth. This sealing is very similar to a sealing that took place in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 9:4–5

4The LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” 5But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare.

The angel in Ezekiel does not carry a seal to mark the foreheads of the righteous, but rather a writing utensil of some kind, these men were protected from harm as those 144,000 are also kept from the torment of the locusts that come out of the pit in Revelation 9. The seal would denote that these bear the mark of ownership, they belong to God. Later in Revelation 14:1 we see that the seal bears the name of the Lamb (Jesus) and His Father. We are also told that they are purchased from the earth, meaning they are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ as first fruits, and they are righteous and true. We are not told exactly what the 144,000 will do once they are sealed. Many believe that they will testify of Christ as messiah to their fellow Jews and others. They may call mankind to repent of their evil deeds and may point out the deception of the false prophet and the Antichrist.

It is interesting that the 144,000 are referred to as "first fruits". The believers of this age that are in Christ are also called first fruits:

Romans 8:23

23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.



James 1:18

18In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.



Christ was raised to life on the day way the first fruits of the barley harvest were offered in the temple. I would suggest that since we are "in Christ", and called "His Body", that we would in His likeness also be correlated to the barley first fruits as well.

1 Corinthians 15:20

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
There are other first fruits offered at Pentecost; wheat was the primary grain offering, along with figs, grapes, wine, and pomegranates. I would suggest that the 144,000 would correlate to the first fruits offered at Pentecost.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:31 am

Continuing with the 6th seal

Revelation 7:9–12

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”


In this passage John turns his attention to the sudden appearance of a great innumerable multitude in heaven. Note that he describes them as coming from every nation, every tribe and peoples and tongues. This is in direct contrast to the previous passage that specifically relates to the sealing of the 144,000 Jews from the tribes of Israel. This great multitude appearing before the throne and before the Lamb are those gentiles and I think also Jews, since the passage seems to indicate that they come from every tribe, that have been saved during the church age,as is shown in their cry. These are those who would make up the body of Christ. I believe them to be those who are caught up into the heavenly tabernacle in what we Christians call the rapture.
Revelation 7:13–17

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15“For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16“They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

This multitude is clothed in white robes. Unlike the martyrs who were souls when John first encounters them, and had to be given their white robes, this great multitude washed theirs in the blood of the Lamb to make them white. The "robe" being the physical body a person is clothed with. The martyrs' because they were souls of the dead, did not initially have a physical body, their earthly body had perished and they were waiting for their imperishable, immortal body. These multitudes have their physical earthly bodies overhauled, made clean, transformed to make them white, the passage tells us that this is the reason they stand before the heavenly throne. As the following passage in Corinthians tells us they will be changed:

1 Corinthians 15:50–54

50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

I find it curious that John sees them waving Palm branches. Which reminds us of Palm Sunday, when the Jews waved palm branches before the Lord as He entered Jerusalem riding on the colt before Passover, they did so because they believed Him to be their savior, however briefly. The tradition of waving palm branches was something Israel did at the feast of booths/ Tabernacles and was commanded by God in Leviticus:

Leviticus 23:39–41

39‘On exactly the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the crops of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the LORD for seven days, with a rest on the first day and a rest on the eighth day. 40‘Now on the first day you shall take for yourselves the foliage of beautiful trees, palm branches and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. 41‘You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

Those who waved palm branches before Passover celebrated as they would at the feast of Tabernacles. During the time of Christ the feast of Tabernacles was connected to the promise of the coming Messiah and His kingdom. Which may explain why the people waved palm branches before Christ.


To be cont'd....
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:35 am

Cont'd....

I just want to say a little something about the scroll before I move on to the seventh seal:

Revelation 5:1–5

1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”


Scrolls were texts written on long pieces of papyrus or vellum (animal skin), John notes that the scroll he sees is written on both sides, this is known as an opisthograph. John could see that there was text written on the outside of the scroll, this is how he knew it was two sided. He also sees that it is sealed shut with seven seals. Some prophecy students claim that some of the seals appear within the scroll to justify their timing of events but it is clear that John sees the rolled up scroll with its seven seals on the outside of the scroll. So what are the contents of the scroll?

Daniel is told to seal up his book of prophecy until the end time

Daniel 12:4

4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”


Daniel 12:9

9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.


Perhaps the scroll conatins the final half of the week of the decree in Daniel that is contained within the scroll that John sees handed with all its seals to Jesus, the Lamb, who after his resurrection is able to remove them.

I believe that the seals are removed before the seventieth week begins. The Judgments contained within the scroll will be proclaimed and executed and bring fulfillment to Daniel’s vision that is sealed until the end times. The final week of Daniel is the only remaining portion of the decree yet to be fulfilled.

Scripture records another opisthograph in the book of Zechariah. Zechariah saw in a vision a flying scroll, (the book of Zechariah seems to parallel the events of the book of Revelation). Perhaps this scroll of cursing with writing on both sides is the same scroll John sees in the revelation that will fulfill Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy for the nation of Israel.
The scroll of cursing that contains the trumpet and bowl judgments.

Zechariah 5:1-4

1 Then I lifted up my eyes again and looked, and behold, there was a flying scroll.
2 And he said to me, “What do you see?” And I answered, “I see a flying scroll; its length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits.”
3 Then he said to me, “This is the curse that is going forth over the face of the whole land; surely everyone who steals will be purged away according to the writing on one side, and everyone who swears will be purged away according to the writing on the other side.
4 “I will make it go forth,” declares the LORD of hosts, “and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name; and it will spend the night within that house and consume it with its timber and stones.”

The size of Zechariah's scroll curiously matches the dimensions of the earthly tabernacle floor plan. It is a testament to the scale and gravity of the cursing that will cut off the false prophets and the false believers from the face of the earth. They will be left without habitation utterly destroyed.

As I see it then, the scroll itself represents the trumpet and bowl judgments that John is about to go on to explain. He tells us what is contained in the scroll throughout the rest of the Revelation.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:37 am

the seventh seal

Revelation 8:1–6

1When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand. 5Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake. 6And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.


Many folks say that the effect of the seventh seal is the bringing forth of the trumpeter angels. And yes that it true, but most ignore the main effect which is the silence in heaven for about a half hour. I mean, think about it, you have this innumerable multitude waving palm branches and shouting praises to the Lamb, imagine the sound level of that! greater than the biggest crowd in any stadium ever. The Palm branches alone would sound like a forest of leaves during the strongest windy day. Then the Lamb removes the final seal and all fall silent. The Greek word for silent is used only one other time in the bible and that is in Acts 21, when Paul was arrested, in Acts 21: 30, we see that the whole city of Jerusalem was provoked by Paul's preaching. The Roman guard intervened to save Paul's life. The mob of people were angry, and shouting. But Paul asked if he could address the crowd and the Romans agreed.


Acts 21:40

40When he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the stairs, motioned to the people with his hand; and when there was a great hush, he spoke to them in the Hebrew dialect, saying,


The crowd fell silent to hear what Paul was going to say, he then went on to share how Jesus appeared to him on the Damascus road and how he was sent to share the gospel with the gentiles. This great multitude in Revelation falls silent as they turn their attention to the removal of the final seal on the scroll. Let us not forget the significance of this momentous event. Recall how earlier John was distraught when he thought no one could open the scroll:

Revelation 5:4–5

4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”

The Multitude is about to look into the scroll with John as an eyewitness recording events in heaven as they do. Imagine John's anticipation as he stood watching the scroll unfurl! The whole Revelation is about the contents of the scroll. Jesus upon His entrance into the heavenly tabernacle was the one found worthy to remove the seals and open the scroll. The final week of Daniel's prophecy commences when the 7th seal is removed. It is the culmination of centuries, eons really. God's plan in its final stages, fulfilled upon the earth. This is HUGE!

Now what is interesting is that John puts a time frame on this silence, he says it lasts "about a half hour" in heaven. It felt to John as if a half hour of time as he understood it had passed. However we must remember that time in heaven does not move like it does on earth. John described it in terms that he understood. Sit still for a half hour in total silence, it will seem like a long time.

I do not believe that this reference is without consequence. Earlier in the Revelation as John wrote the dictation for the letter to Philadelphia we see this:

Revelation 3:10–13

10‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Note that other than Smyrna, Philadelphia is the only other church to receive no condemnation and call to repent. Smyrna to me loosely represents those 5th seal martyrs, those who die for their testimony in Christ, while these here at Philadelphia loosely represent those who are raptured and kept from the hour of testing. You will notice the reference to them becoming pillars in God's temple- sounds very like the passage in Revelation 7:15!

Notice how Jesus calls it the HOUR of testing. And now here in chapter 8 we have about a half hour in heaven passing in silence as the scroll is opened. I would suggest that this half hour represents the first half of the 70th week, it is about a half hour because it takes us up to the point where the trumpets sound, ending the silence, which I believe begins just before the middle of the "week". The hour of testing is the 70th week, which those whose faith is like the Philadelphians are promised to be kept from.

Testing is an interesting topic, a study unto itself. Throughout the OT God tested Is people.

He tested Abraham Genesis 22:1
He tested the Israelites at Marah before they crossed the red sea- Exodus 15:25
He tested them again after the crossed the red sea when he gave them manna- Exodus 16:4, Duet 6:16
Moses told the people that God had come to Mount Sinai to test them- Exodus 22:20

This testing that god brought upon His people was to prove their faithfulness to Him.

Exodus 15:25–26

25Then he cried out to the LORD, and the LORD showed him a tree; and he threw it into the waters, and the waters became sweet. There He made for them a statute and regulation, and there He tested them. 26And He said, “If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have put on the Egyptians; for I, the LORD, am your healer.”

Exodus 16:4

4Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction.

Exodus 20:20

20Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.”

Deuteronomy 8:2

2“You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.


Deuteronomy 13:1–5
1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. 5“But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.


The 70th week is an hour of testing that will come upon the whole world, to "test those who dwell on the earth". God is going to give one last chance to those who have failed to believe in the truth. We know that there will be tribulation saints that will be saved during the first half of the "week" and that ultimately Israel will be brought back into their covenant with God, a remnant of the nation will pass the test. The 70th week is an instrument of God's testing for those who will turn to Him during it, the many who will be killed as martyrs (I believe before God's wrath is poured out, see Rev 14:13) and the nation of Israel which will be preserved. It is also an instrument of judgment for those who do not, who will suffer the judgment of God's wrath in the pouring of the bowls and ultimately the lake of fire.

Again I would say that this "about" a half hour of silence is "about" the first half of the 70th week. When the man of Lawlessness, AKA, the Antichrist and the false prophet will appear and a deluding influence will be sent by God. Where lying signs and wonders will be performed. The seventh seal is removed when the covenant is entered into as spoken of by Daniel. I believe that during this time of silence that the beast economic system will be set up, that the false prophet will encourage worship of the dragon and the antichrist himself. The 144,000 will be sealed and the two witnesses will proclaim the truth. The test will prove whether those on earth will hear and heed God's truth or take the mark of the beast declaring allegiance to him and to satan, the dragon.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:39 am

Just want to take a minute and go over the sealing of the 144,000 and discuss the time frame in which this happens.

We can see from the following passage that the four angels are told not to harm the earth, sea or tree until the (144,000) bond- servants of God are sealed:

Revelation 7:2–3

2And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”


And we know that later the first four trumpets sound, after the "about a half hour" of silence takes place in heaven.


Revelation 8:7–12

7The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. 8The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood, 9and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed. 10The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters. 11The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter. 12The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.


The four angels who were granted to harm the earth, sea and trees have now done there job, signifying that the 144,000 had been sealed. The sealing takes place during the "about a half hour" of silence in heaven, which is IMO the first half of the 70th week.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:52 am

So there you have it, there were other issues that came up in discussion, but you are free to ask your own and I will do my best to answer. I have studied further but I feel this is all that is necessary to share regarding the rapture. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

God bless

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby burien1 on Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:32 pm

Thank you, Resurrection Torchlight. That was a lot of work ! God bless you !
Psalm 119:105; Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
User avatar
burien1
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 8691
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:57 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Spreading Salt on Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:52 pm

I've been tracking along with you there and here RT. I think you encompassed many good ideas and perspectives.

I also have a different 'pretrib' view where I don't believe Revelation is chronological either but more like the unfolding of a play where you get bits and pieces that coincide and intermingle, not like A,B, C, D, but pieces of each intertwined.

Great job girl! :blessyou:
Image
Spreading Salt
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:29 am
Location: Washington

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:02 pm

RT

It is obvious that you have spent a long time considering your revised Pre-Tib view and the explanation that goes with this revised view. However, I would question some of the statements that you have made. Please allow me to question each in turn in separate posts.

In the fifth post in this thread you wrote: -

Resurrection Torchlight wrote: Seal 6- represents the rapture of the church, the start of the sealing of the 144,000


Revelation 6:12-17: Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


Could you explain the timeframe for this event? Does this event happen around the start of the millennium Age or towards the end of the Millennium Age? My understanding is that Seal Six occurs towards the end of the Millennium Age.

Perhaps you may like to expand your thoughts on the Sixth Seal for me to consider your understanding in light of the above quoted Biblical passage.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1616
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:03 pm

Hi Jay,

It's a long thread, so perhaps you missed it, I do cover this in the very first post. But to reiterate I believe that the first four seals have been removed already, and were removed by Christ shortly after He ascended to take His heavenly throne. The removal of the fifth and sixth seals I believe are imminent and it is my theory that they precede the 70th week. (This is the pre trib forum :mrgreen: )

So the sixth seal is removed just before the 70th week of Daniel ensues. The removal of the seventh seal I believe represents the start of the 70th week.

You said that :

My understanding is that Seal Six occurs towards the end of the Millennium Age.


That is not my understanding. I believe that the seals are removed before the trumpets and that the bowls follow the trumpets, all happen consecutively just as the revelation reads.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:31 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Hi Jay,

It's a long thread, so perhaps you missed it, I do cover this in the very first post.


What about the three posts before the post where you started to set out your introduction to the topic of this thread in post 4 of the thread and then the fifth post in this thread in which you begin to list the seals, trumpets and ? I did label the post where you started to give your synopsis of the seals as being the fifth post in this thread as a means of labelling the post I was referring to.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The removal of the fifth and sixth seals I believe are imminent and it is my theory that they precede the 70th week. (This is the pre trib forum :mrgreen: )


I have no issue with your statement that the fifth and sixth seals precede the 70th week of Daniel 9:27, however, to suggest that this is an imminent event based on the Pre-trib theory is difficult because we are presently in the time of Jacob's trouble and the Church as such is not directly being impacted by this particular tribulation event. The major tribulation event, that the Pre-tribers are afraid of, is more in our distant future and it is usually described as the Great tribulation event, that the pre-trib theory is claiming the church will be raptured before from my understanding.

Now, concerning the, "This is the pre trib forum :mrgreen:" I carefully considered as to whether or not I should be commenting on what you have written as the "facts" of the Pre-Trib theory.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:You said that :

My understanding is that Seal Six occurs towards the end of the Millennium Age.


That is not my understanding. I believe that the seals are removed before the trumpets and that the bowls follow the trumpets, all happen consecutively just as the revelation reads.

RT


I am not so sure that the Book of Revelation provides a sequential record of the events that will occur in the End Times, but rather it moves back and forth in time as it reveals different aspects of the seal, trumpet and Bowl events being played out. For example, the event described when the sixth angel poured his bowl out IMHO began about 1200 to 1500 years ago when figuratively we are told that the Euphrates River dries out, the release from the three kings on the eastern side of the river of the three foul spirits to begin the march to draw the kings of the earth and their armies towards Jerusalem and their assembling at Armageddon where they will be judged in battle. The sixth bowl occurs over such a long time period that it overlaps other events from the Seals, the trumpets and the Bowls such that all of the events can not be sequentially described.

Most of the sixth bowl event has already occurred and in our recent past we saw the three fowl frog like spirits go out to begin the process of drawing the nations to Armageddon in our near future. But is this event part of the Time of Jacob's Trouble/Tribulation or the events of the Great Tribulation that will trigger the rapture of the Church?

Shalom
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1616
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:03 pm

Hello again Jay,

As this is the pre trib only forum, I am not going to proceed with debate here. To be sure, yours is a view that I have not ever heard before, at least what little of it you have shared here. If you wish to continue perhaps you might consider starting a thread in the debate forum.

And yes, I was wrong about the first post, it was actually farther down, sorry I was thinking the first post of my intent, to share my theory.

Have you shared your own view somewhere on FP? I would be interested in reading it if you have. If so can you provide a link?

Thanks

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby burien1 on Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:45 pm

Now, concerning the, "This is the pre trib forum :mrgreen:" I carefully considered as to whether or not I should be commenting on what you have written as the "facts" of the Pre-Trib theory.

Jay,
This is "The Pretrib view only" forum. It is a protected area. It is not open for debate. If you want to discuss your view, you can do so in the debate section or bible study section. Thank you for understanding.
Psalm 119:105; Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
User avatar
burien1
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 8691
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:57 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Ready1 on Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:57 am

Hi RT:

After a couple of years, I was looking back at this thread and had a question. In the beginning of this thread you stated:

So let me begin first by just laying out the way I see the timeline then I will show through scripture why I believe this to be true:

Seals 1-4- have already been opened- the four horses.
Seal 5- represents the resurrection of the dead in Christ (seal 5 and 6 happen in very close succession and are imminent)
Seal 6- represents the rapture of the church, the start of the sealing of the 144,000
Seal 7-silence in heaven for "about a half hour"-represents the start of the 70th week and the first 3.5 years, the two witnesses begin their ministry,


Revelation 6

Rev 6:1 Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!"
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!"
Rev 6:4 And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword.
Rev 6:5 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!"
Rev 6:7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!"
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.



If I read you correctly you would see that according to Rev 6:1-7, seals one thru four have been opened. However as I read thru verse 8, it seems like the Lord lumps the "four horsemen of the apocalypse" together when he states that

And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.


So my question for you is this. Since you see this as completed, when has this occurred in history? Maybe I am in error in my interpretation, but it certainly seems like one fourth of the earth will be killed when the Lord opens these four seals, and I know of no time in history when there has been so great of loss of life upon the earth at one time. Not World War 1 or World War 2 or any other time in known history. If such a thing occurred now, almost 2 billion people would be killed.

Or maybe you do not see the death of one fourth of the earth. (My understanding would be that one fourth of the people on the earth would be killed in this time period.)

I would be glad to hear your explanation.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:12 pm

:snack:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5615
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:06 pm

So my question for you is this. Since you see this as completed, when has this occurred in history? Maybe I am in error in my interpretation, but it certainly seems like one fourth of the earth will be killed when the Lord opens these four seals, and I know of no time in history when there has been so great of loss of life upon the earth at one time. Not World War 1 or World War 2 or any other time in known history. If such a thing occurred now, almost 2 billion people would be killed.

Or maybe you do not see the death of one fourth of the earth. (My understanding would be that one fourth of the people on the earth would be killed in this time period.)

I would be glad to hear your explanation.


Hi there Shorttribber,

I will do my best to explain, first of all I do not necessarily see the seals as being fulfilled, rather I see that the seal horses and their riders carry out their roles throughout history, with the fourth horse and riders being given authority over 1/4th of the earth (geographically) to kill. The history I believe is that which encompasses the time from when Christ ascended throughout the church age and into the future until the rapture occurs. Edited to add* I would see the effects as cumulative, not just one time events, but many events spread out over time.

Each rider has a purpose- To conquer, to foment war, to cause famine, and to kill. They IMO influence events on earth in the same way that the angels in Ezekiel influenced the geopolitics on earth, they wielded their swords, but on earth it was the Babylonian armies that did the killing. The spiritual forces had an earthly counterpart that they influenced to accomplish their task.
Ezekiel 9:1–2
1 Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.”
2 Behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate which faces north, each with his shattering weapon in his hand; and among them was a certain man clothed in linen with a writing case at his loins. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.

Ezekiel 9:5–6
5 But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare.
6 “Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.” So they started with the elders who were before the temple.



We see something similar in Daniel, where angels are battling spiritual forces which are called "princes".

Daniel 10:20
20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.


We know that the Persians were followed by the Greeks in ruling over the Mediterranean region, yet there were spiritual forces involved that influenced the leaders of these geographical areas.

I hope this helps

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Ready1 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:31 pm

RT wrote:I will do my best to explain, first of all I do not necessarily see the seals as being fulfilled, rather I see that the seal horses and their riders carry out their roles throughout history, with the fourth horse and riders being given authority over 1/4th of the earth (geographically) to kill. The history I believe is that which encompasses the time from when Christ ascended throughout the church age and into the future until the rapture occurs. Edited to add* I would see the effects as cumulative, not just one time events, but many events spread out over time.

Each rider has a purpose- To conquer, to foment war, to cause famine, and to kill. They IMO influence events on earth in the same way that the angels in Ezekiel influenced the geopolitics on earth, they wielded their swords, but on earth it was the Babylonian armies that did the killing. The spiritual forces had an earthly counterpart that they influenced to accomplish their task.


I will do my best to explain, first of all I do not necessarily see the seals as being fulfilled

I probably misstated your comments and I understand that you see that they may be still in progress.

I see that the seal horses and their riders carry out their roles throughout history, with the fourth horse and riders being given authority over 1/4th of the earth (geographically) to kill.


I would have several questions that arise from this statement

1. If your understanding is correct, is there any way to know what part of the earth would be geographically included in these four seals?

2. What about the dead from all the rest of the earth who have been killed throughout time since Christ was here? Would there be any way to include or exclude them from the 1/4 of the earth? If so, how. If not, how will we know which 1/4 of the earth (which we cannot quantify) is correlated to this prophecy?

3. Or is an unknowable?

4. Or is it a figure of speech?

The history I believe is that which encompasses the time from when Christ ascended throughout the church age and into the future until the rapture occurs.

I would agree that this is the church age and has special significance, but have been unable to tie the first four seals to the whole period.

I would see the effects as cumulative, not just one time events, but many events spread out over time.

I understand that you see it that way.

Each rider has a purpose- To conquer, to foment war, to cause famine, and to kill. They IMO influence events on earth in the same way that the angels in Ezekiel influenced the geopolitics on earth, they wielded their swords, but on earth it was the Babylonian armies that did the killing. The spiritual forces had an earthly counterpart that they influenced to accomplish their task.

I would agree with this as well.

For your thoughts:

If this passage actually did mean that one fourth of the people on the earth would be killed during this brief time period, then prior to the time that the sixth seal is opened and the occurrence of a massive earthquake/dark sun/blood moon, it would be very easy to quantify whether or not this spectacular prophecy had demonstrably been fulfilled. Again in our world this would be a massive sign and proof of Biblical veracity.
Last edited by Ready1 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:57 pm

Ready1 wrote:1. If your understanding is correct, is there any way to know what part of the earth would be geographically included in these four seals?
2. What about the dead from all the rest of the earth who have been killed throughout time since Christ was here? Would there be any way to include or exclude them from the 1/4 of the earth?
If so, how.
If not, how will we know which 1/4 of the earth (which we cannot quantify) is any correlated to this prophecy?3. Or is an unknowable?4.
Or is it a figure of speech?

All good questions I think...wonder if there is some way to know, at least in a general sense.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5615
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:04 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Ready1 wrote:1. If your understanding is correct, is there any way to know what part of the earth would be geographically included in these four seals?
2. What about the dead from all the rest of the earth who have been killed throughout time since Christ was here? Would there be any way to include or exclude them from the 1/4 of the earth?
If so, how.
If not, how will we know which 1/4 of the earth (which we cannot quantify) is any correlated to this prophecy?3. Or is an unknowable?4.
Or is it a figure of speech?

All good questions I think...wonder if there is some way to know, at least in a general sense.


I would say that there isn't really any way we can pin down what part of the world this is speaking of. Though I would speculate that it may be the area surrounding the Mediterranean sea, including the middle east, since that is the region that was in view when Daniel received the 70 weeks prophecy. Though there really is no way of knowing. Of course people did and do die all over the earth and without knowing where this 1/4 lies we cannot include or exclude them from the possibility.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:15 pm

here's an interesting list of deaths resulting from war over the centuries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... death_toll

This is a youtube animation of all the wars that have occured since the year 1000 AD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... hsDn2kNriI

here's a site that shows maps of where hunger and malnutrition is an issue

https://ourworldindata.org/hunger-and-undernourishment

This site tells how many die from hunger

https://www.statisticbrain.com/world-hunger-statistics/


I tend toward the belief that the 1/4 spoken of is related to geographic area. I think these maps may support that idea, you see that war, and hunger are most prevalent in certain geographic areas. Around the Mediterranean, Africa and East Asia. Roughly 1/4 of the earth geographically???? It seems to me that conquest, war, hunger and death go hand in hand.
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:33 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:here's an interesting list of deaths resulting from war over the centuries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w ... death_toll

This is a youtube animation of all the wars that have occured since the year 1000 AD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... hsDn2kNriI

here's a site that shows maps of where hunger and malnutrition is an issue

https://ourworldindata.org/hunger-and-undernourishment

This site tells how many die from hunger

https://www.statisticbrain.com/world-hunger-statistics/


I tend toward the belief that the 1/4 spoken of is related to geographic area. I think these maps may support that idea, you see that war, and hunger are most prevalent in certain geographic areas. Around the Mediterranean, Africa and East Asia. Roughly 1/4 of the earth geographically???? It seems to me that conquest, war, hunger and death go hand in hand.


I will look at those links...that is interesting though...kinda what I was hoping to find really. Thank you :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5615
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Ready1 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:25 pm

I would say that there isn't really any way we can pin down what part of the world this is speaking of. Though I would speculate that it may be the area surrounding the Mediterranean sea, including the middle east, since that is the region that was in view when Daniel received the 70 weeks prophecy. Though there really is no way of knowing. Of course people did and do die all over the earth and without knowing where this 1/4 lies we cannot include or exclude them from the possibility.


I guess that I still look at it like this. If the 1/4 of the earth is a region and it is unknowable, then this is not a prophecy which points to a truth which we can examine. If this requires that the Lord reveals it after the fact, then it is only a history which we know in advance but cannot discern as it happens because we do not know the parameters.

If, on the other hand, the death of 1/4 of the earth occurs within the time frame of the seventieth week, it is a dramatic revelation of the truth of Gods word. Two billion people dead. Furthermore what is happening is so dramatic that an uncountable multitude of those who are killed receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior because they can no longer deny the truth of the word of His Revelation. Where do we see these folks? Just one chapter later...Rev 7:9-17. So I somehow can't see it the way you do and will just have to limp along seeing it like I do. :grin: :grin:

Here is the passage.

Rev 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a great roar, "Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God.
Rev 7:12 They sang, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength belong to our God forever and ever! Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, "Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows." Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
Rev 7:15 "That is why they stand in front of God's throne and serve Him day and night in His Temple. And He who sits on the throne will give them shelter.
Rev 7:16 They will never again be hungry or thirsty; they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb on the throne will be their Shepherd. He will lead them to springs of life-giving water. And God will wipe every tear from their eyes."


Those are amazing websites!
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:30 am

Ready1 wrote:
I would say that there isn't really any way we can pin down what part of the world this is speaking of. Though I would speculate that it may be the area surrounding the Mediterranean sea, including the middle east, since that is the region that was in view when Daniel received the 70 weeks prophecy. Though there really is no way of knowing. Of course people did and do die all over the earth and without knowing where this 1/4 lies we cannot include or exclude them from the possibility.


I guess that I still look at it like this. If the 1/4 of the earth is a region and it is unknowable, then this is not a prophecy which points to a truth which we can examine. If this requires that the Lord reveals it after the fact, then it is only a history which we know in advance but cannot discern as it happens because we do not know the parameters.

If, on the other hand, the death of 1/4 of the earth occurs within the time frame of the seventieth week, it is a dramatic revelation of the truth of Gods word. Two billion people dead. Furthermore what is happening is so dramatic that an uncountable multitude of those who are killed receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior because they can no longer deny the truth of the word of His Revelation. Where do we see these folks? Just one chapter later...Rev 7:9-17. So I somehow can't see it the way you do and will just have to limp along seeing it like I do. :grin: :grin:

Here is the passage.

Rev 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a great roar, "Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God.
Rev 7:12 They sang, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength belong to our God forever and ever! Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, "Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?"
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows." Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
Rev 7:15 "That is why they stand in front of God's throne and serve Him day and night in His Temple. And He who sits on the throne will give them shelter.
Rev 7:16 They will never again be hungry or thirsty; they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb on the throne will be their Shepherd. He will lead them to springs of life-giving water. And God will wipe every tear from their eyes."




So there is a small flaw that I see in your theory.

I believe what you are claiming is that the multitude in the above passages constitutes the 1/4 that are killed correct??

If so then I would say first of all these are not killed but resurrected alive, or raptured, at least that is my view, however some see these as the tribulation martyrs.

Secondly and more obviously I think anyway, the rider of the fourth horse (death) does not ride alone, Hades follows behind him. This tells me that those who are killed are destined for Hades not heaven which is clearly where these multitudes are shown to stand before the throne of God.

Revelation 6:8
8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.


This passage also tells us how these people are killed, they are killed through the plagues of the other three riders. Sword, famine, Pestilence (which is death), and wild beasts, which I believe are the conquerors of the first rider.



RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Ready1 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:20 am

If so then I would say first of all these are not killed but resurrected alive, or raptured, at least that is my view, however some see these as the tribulation martyrs.


Here is the scripture which describes this vast multitude of people but it does not describe them as "resurrected alive or raptured". I would see them as part of those who died from the time of the first seal to the opening of the seventh seal...

Rev 7:9 After this, I saw a large crowd with more people than could be counted. They were from every race, tribe, nation, and language, and they stood before the throne and before the Lamb. They wore white robes and held palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 as they shouted, "Our God, who sits upon the throne, has the power to save his people, and so does the Lamb."
Rev 7:11 The angels who stood around the throne knelt in front of it with their faces to the ground. The elders and the four living creatures knelt there with them. Then they all worshiped God
Rev 7:12 and said, "Amen! Praise, glory, wisdom, thanks, honor, power, and strength belong to our God forever and ever! Amen!"
Rev 7:13 One of the elders asked me, "Do you know who these people are that are dressed in white robes? Do you know where they come from?"
Rev 7:14 "Sir," I answered, "you must know." Then he told me: "These are the ones who have gone through the great suffering. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and have made them white.
Rev 7:15 And so they stand before the throne of God and worship him in his temple day and night. The one who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

Rev 7:16 They will never hunger or thirst again, and they won't be troubled by the sun or any scorching heat.
Rev 7:17 The Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd. He will lead them to streams of life-giving water, and God will wipe all tears from their eyes."



Secondly and more obviously I think anyway, the rider of the fourth horse (death) does not ride alone, Hades follows behind him. This tells me that those who are killed are destined for Hades not heaven which is clearly where these multitudes are shown to stand before the throne of God.


I agree that hades follows after the rider of the fourth horse, but remember, Hades, the place of the departed dead, as described in the scripture, was made up of two parts. Luke 16:19-31
Part 1: Torment or the place of the unrighteous dead.
Part 2: Abraham's bosom or the part of the righteous dead.

I don't see your conclusion as correct. i.e. that all in hades are in torment (especially with the declaration of the above passage of scripture.)

This passage also tells us how these people are killed, they are killed through the plagues of the other three riders. Sword, famine, Pestilence (which is death), and wild beasts, which I believe are the conquerors of the first rider.


Rev 7:16-17 makes provision for your objection in that it explains that these people who have undergone terrible suffering, and it even lists some of the plagues that they have gone through (hunger, thirst, global warming :eek: ), will never have to endure them again because the Lord himself will be the one to nourish and care for them.

So I somehow can't see it the way you do and will just have to limp along seeing it like I do. :grin: :grin:


I'm not necessarily trying to convince you RT as much as laying out an alternative understanding which I believe to be just as valid as what you propose. I always appreciate your understanding and thoughtful responses.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Ready1 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:05 am

Here is another point you can disagree with... :grin:

It is my opinion that the Rev 6:9 folks are the same group that we see in more detail in Rev 7:9-17.

Rev 6:9-11
1) Killed for faith
2) Looking for vengeance
3) white robes given
4) told to wait until more are killed

Rev 7:9-17
1) size of group (no man can number)
2) from the whole earth
3) wearing their white robes
4) taken care of by Jesus forever
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:33 pm

:whoohoo:
I'm all caught up now and waiting on RT to answer. :snack:

(So great to see mature and considerate people having a discussion on this topic. Thanks for showing off your intelligence and leadership skills. This topic always gets everyone so excited....whole websites are dedicated to one view or another which I think doesn't promote being good buriens).
GodsStudent
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 11810
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:31 pm

GodsStudent wrote:(So great to see mature and considerate people having a discussion on this topic. Thanks for showing off your intelligence and leadership skills. This topic always gets everyone so excited....whole websites are dedicated to one view or another which I think doesn't promote being good buriens).

:snack: :a3: :snack:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5615
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:13 pm

Ready1 wrote:
I agree that hades follows after the rider of the fourth horse, but remember, Hades, the place of the departed dead, as described in the scripture, was made up of two parts. Luke 16:19-31
Part 1: Torment or the place of the unrighteous dead.
Part 2: Abraham's bosom or the part of the righteous dead.

I don't see your conclusion as correct. i.e. that all in hades are in torment (especially with the declaration of the above passage of scripture.)


Let's take a look at the passage in Luke shall we?
Luke 16:19–26
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’


So we have a rich man and poor sick Lazarus
Lazarus dies and is carried by angels to Abraham's bosom
The rich man also dies and appears in Hades, where he is tormented and in agony because of the flames.
The rich man in hades looks up and sees Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Verse 26 tells us that between the two places; Hades and Abraham's bosom, there is a great chasm that keeps the rich man from being able to cross over.

Abraham's bosom and Hades are not the same place, they are two distinct places separated by a great gulf that cannot be traversed, they aren't two halves of the same place. The rich man looks up to see Abraham, meaning that the gulf is vertical not horizontal.

Needless to say that the multitudes that stand before the throne are not in Hades or Abraham's bosom, so IMO they cannot be the same people that die by the fourth seal rider(s), for the reason I mentioned earlier.

Also though the passage does not say that the multitudes were resurrected, it stands to reason that they were. Every resurrection event shows the one(s) who appear, to be standing in the heavenly throne-room.

Hebrews 9:11–12
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:22–24
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;


Revelation 5:5–7
5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.


Revelation 15:1–2
1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.


Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.


All of these resurrection events, show people standing before the throne. Before their resurrection they are not there, they are somewhere else. In Revelation 20:13, we are told that the "sea" and "death and hades" give up their dead. I won't go into depth as to what I believe the "sea" here is, the short version is that I believe it is paradise, which resides within the heavenly "crystal sea". The point however is that people arrive in the heavenly tabernacle from somewhere else to stand before the throne, which means that they had to have been resurrected or raptured in order to be standing there.

Revelation 7:9
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;


Now I cannot be dogmatic about this, but given the great multitude that suddenly appears all at once, I would speculate that this innumerable group of people are likely those raptured along with those resurrected from the dead who were in Christ.

This passage also tells us how these people are killed, they are killed through the plagues of the other three riders. Sword, famine, Pestilence (which is death), and wild beasts, which I believe are the conquerors of the first rider.


Rev 7:16-17 makes provision for your objection in that it explains that these people who have undergone terrible suffering, and it even lists some of the plagues that they have gone through (hunger, thirst, global warming :eek: ), will never have to endure them again because the Lord himself will be the one to nourish and care for them.


So I somehow can't see it the way you do and will just have to limp along seeing it like I do. :grin: :grin:


I suppose that's one way to look at it, and no need to limp, by all means, we have different views and it's okay, you are free to disagree and run with it! :grin:

I'm not necessarily trying to convince you RT as much as laying out an alternative understanding which I believe to be just as valid as what you propose. I always appreciate your understanding and thoughtful responses.


I appreciate that, and I understand the many various views including yours. The reason I started this thread was to lay out my own understanding for consideration. I would encourage you to start a thread and do the same.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:20 pm

Ready1 wrote:Here is another point you can disagree with... :grin:

It is my opinion that the Rev 6:9 folks are the same group that we see in more detail in Rev 7:9-17.

Rev 6:9-11
1) Killed for faith
2) Looking for vengeance
3) white robes given
4) told to wait until more are killed

Rev 7:9-17
1) size of group (no man can number)
2) from the whole earth
3) wearing their white robes
4) taken care of by Jesus forever


If you read through this thread carefully you would see that I agree with you on this one, I believe that the martyrs of 6:9 are part of the multitude of chapter 7, IMO they are the dead in Christ who are raised and those who are alive and remain who are caught up and changed, together they stand in white before the throne in their glorified bodies.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:59 pm

:a3: I agree with both of your last posts RT...it seems I do agree on each point you made. And they are very good points, all of them. :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5615
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Ready1 on Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:06 pm

Hi RT,
I think you need to look a little more closely at Hades. The following are excerpts from the reference in Bible Study Tools and indicate that the primary understanding of Hades is that it represents the “place of the dead”, both righteous and unrighteous. It is a place of the righteous dead and a place of the unrighteous dead. Two locations separated by a great gulf.

Greek term widely used to denote the deity of the underworld and the abode of the dead. The New Testament use of Hades builds on its Hebrew parallel, Sheol, which was the preferred translation in the Septuagint. Ppg 1

Hades is the state in which all the dead exist. Ppg 4

Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus portrays additional features of this state. An unbridgeable chasm separates the wicked and the righteous dead. Death has fixed the human’s destiny without further opportunity... Ppg 6


Bible Study Tools

Regardless of how we view Hades, it seems to be reasonable to see that authority to kill is given with each of these seals and no geographical regions are referenced at all.

Rev 6:2 I looked up and saw a white horse standing there. Its rider carried a bow, and a crown was placed on his head. He rode out to win many battles and gain the victory. NLT


Battles and victory, or conquer and conquers, or overcoming and overcome indicate winners, losers, and loss of life for the vanquished.

Rev 6:4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere. NLT


A massive sword and the authority to take peace from the earth and war and slaughter everywhere. No designation where on the earth that this occurs other than “the earth”.

6:5 When the Lamb broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, "Come!" I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, "A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine." NLT


Again, no indication that this massive inflation of food cost occurs in specified areas but this passage simply indicates that it occurs. What is implied is famine and great death by those without means to pay.

Rev 6:8 I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals. NLT


The pale horse and its rider Death had limits set upon them as to how much killing could be accomplished. They were given authority over one fourth of the earth. The sword (v.4}, famine (v. 6), disease and wild animals (v. 8) all are limited as to the amount of men who can be killed rather than the area in which they can be killed.

So while it may be that you are correct and the one fourth of the earth refers to a geographical region, it seems more reasonable that since each of these verses references death of humanity in one form or another, that the reference to one fourth of the earth would also mean one fourth of humanity.

I'll shut up now and go back to hibernating.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:58 am

Hi Ready1,

You make some valid points, though I still contend that as the seal horses ride, that each effect builds on the other, Conquerors ride out seeking to conquer, which brings war, which in turn brings famine and finally death. Can their effects be independent of each other? Certainly. It is my view that these horses have been released to influence the earth and have been riding since Christ entered heaven after HIs resurrection and took His place on the heavenly Throne.

Could these effects be shown all over the earth and not just in one fourth of it? An argument can be made for that being the case. You can look at the links to the maps I have posted and see for yourself where most of these effects have occurred over time. But in either case it really doesn't change anything for me. Certainly since Christ was raised and was seated on His throne, billions of people have died directly or indirectly by these effects on earth. The real difference between us isn't whether or not it's 1/4 of the earth geographically or 1/4 of the earth's population, or what Hades is, it's where you put the opening of the seals in the timeline of events.

If you scroll back through this thread, I explain why I see the seals opened prior to the 70th week in post 6.



RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:22 am

I would like to elaborate a bit again on why I have come to understand the first 4 seals as having already been removed.

Okay so let's talk about the scene in Revelation 4 again by way of reminder: John has been caught up to heaven into the heavenly tabernacle, to stand before the throne of God. Where he sees "one sitting on the throne" and the 24 elders sitting on thrones around God's throne.

He goes on to describe the throne, the crystal sea, the living creatures etc... but let me point to one description in particular. That of the seven spirits of God:
Revelation 4:5
5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;
John describes the seven spirits of God as seven lamps of fire burning before the throne.


John continues to describe events that were shown to him:
Revelation 5:1-10
1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”
3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”


There is a lot here in this passage. First we see God the father (Him who sits on the throne) holding in His hand the sealed scroll. John is distraught over the idea that no one anywhere (heaven,earth or under the earth) is able to open the scroll, and the reason is that no one has been found worthy to do so. But then one of the elders says that the Lion of Judah (an Old testament description of Christ) overcame, which makes Him worthy to now look into the book.
Then immediately we see the Lamb standing as if slain (A New Testament description of Christ) before the throne. Which we know to be Jesus.

What has happened here? What made the Lion of Judah, who we also know to be Jesus, worthy to open the scroll? He overcame. The question is what did He overcome?

But before we discover what He overcame let's talk about when He did so:
Revelation 3:21
21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Jesus says that he overcame and sat down with His father on His throne, this is an event from John's past not the future. When did this happen?

Hebrews 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


When He made purification of sins, after He was crucified.

Hebrews 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So what did Jesus overcome?

John 16:33
33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”



How did He overcome the world?
1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


He died for our sins and subjected angels and authorities and powers to Him,(overcame the world) then was raised to heaven and is now at the right hand of God.

So when John describes the Lamb standing as if slain enter into the heavenly tabernacle, he is describing Christ after His crucifixion, resurrected into the throne room of God in the heavenly tabernacle. This is why He is described as standing as if slain. He has just been crucified and has subjected the angels, powers and authorities to Himself and now He is prepared to take the scroll and His place on the throne at the right hand of the Father. This event is not a future event, the Lamb will never again enter the throne room of heaven as if slain, as Peter says He dies once for the sins of all.

There are other indications in the passage that demonstrate what John witnesses is the initiation of the New Covenant era and not a future event.

We saw earlier how the seven spirits of God were described as seven lamps of fire. Under the Old Covenant In the earthly tabernacle, these seven spirits served as the pattern for the golden Lampstand that was in the wilderness tabernacle(Exodus 25:31-40). But after the lamb enters we now see that the description of these seven spirits is different:

Revelation 5:6
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.


So we see right here a change in the working of the Holy Spirit, no longer described as seven lamps of fire before the throne, but now they are seven horns and eyes on the head of the Lamb that was slain, sent out into all the earth.

Peter in his sermon at Pentecost explains how the words of the prophet Joel were being fulfilled that day, remember the Holy Spirit had just descended, appearing as what?....flames of fire (seven lamps of fire):

Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.


Then Peter explains to the crowd what was happening:

Acts 2:16-18
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.


So we see that this different description of the seven spirits of God in the revelation demonstrates that the New Covenant era has just begun.

Not only this but John also goes on to describe the "New Song" :

Revelation 5:7-10
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”


We see that the "new song" reiterates why Jesus was able to take the book, because He was slain and purchased men with His blood. This is a confirmation that what John had just witnessed was Jesus entering heaven after His crucifixion and resurrection. This is the song of the New Covenant, men from every tribe, tongue and nation, no longer just the nation of Israel, but the gentiles as well; they have been made into a kingdom of priests who will one day (in the future) reign on earth.

John early in the Revelation opens with this:

Revelation 1:4-6
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


He says that Jesus released us from our sins by His blood and He has (past tense) made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, an event from John's past, which was fulfilled when Jesus entered the heavenly tabernacle as the Lamb that was slain to make atonement for our sins. (See Hebrews 9+10)

Now if I am correct, and I think that I am, then this event that John witnesses is not a future event, but one from John's past (and ours) and is the initiation of the New Covenant era and the birth of the church, which by the way, would exclude the 24 elders from being the church because they are shown to be around the throne before the Lamb enters as if slain, before the New Covenant era begins.

Hebrews 9:11-15
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


What we see in Hebrews 9, is what John witnessed in Revelation 4 and 5.

So Jesus took the scroll from the Father upon His entrance into the heavenly Tabernacle, and took His seat on His throne. It is completely reasonable to assume that He then immediately began removing the first four seals. In fact this is exactly how John describes events unfolding. The two remaining seals, as I have explained earlier in this thread remain, and represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ, followed by the rapture, seals 5 and 6, meaning these events could happen at any time. The scroll itself represents the final 7 years of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:13 am

That last post was really excellent RT....with you most the way, and will not disagree at any part.

I can't say I do agree perfectly but I will not debate either way of couse, just letting you know that I'm almost 100% with your last post.
It was very, very well done I think.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5615
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:28 am

:a3: RT. I just finished the above last post of yours and I really love the way you put it together, letting the Word reveal itself as you explain what it is saying.....outstanding post. It made my heart sing to read it and witness to it. Also, while I was reading it, the Lord showed me something to tell my daughter that she needs to see....powerful, so I stopped reading, texted my daughter what she needed (she will marinate in it which is why I did not call her), and then I came back and finished reading the Word in your post. The Holy Spirit was here with me this morning as I read your post and His Word was explained and revealed to me. Such a blessing. Thank you for putting in the work to share this with us, RT.
GodsStudent
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 11810
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Re: revised pre trib view- explained

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:06 am

Thanks Shorttribber and GodsStudent, appreciate the encouragement.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm


Return to Pre-trib view only

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest