Why the pre-trib rapture?

No opposing arguments allowed

Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 12:17 pm

Hi Godsstudent,

I begin with the proposition that the vision recorded in the Revelation of Jesus Christ presents a sequential scenario except where otherwise noted. We should use the time chronology words contained in the vision. "And then", "After this", the like.

Seals are opened, then the angels are given trumpets and the trumpets are sounded, then bowl are given and poured out.

Parenthetical passages are grammatically indicated.

I'll try to start with a thumbnail sketch.

The two witnesses prophesy for 3.5 years, unable to be harmed. They will be killed by the beast who is given power over the saints for 3.5 years, until his power is taken away when Jesus returns.

Therefore, the two witnesses prophesy for the first 1/2 of the remaining 7 years, the 70th week. The Beast is given power for the last 1/2. Then Jesus returns.

In Revelation 11, the two witnesses are killed, lie dead, then return to life and ascend into heaven. And God tells us, the second woe is past, the third is coming.

The three woes are the last three trumpets. So when the witnesses ascend, 6 of the 7 trumpets have already been sounded. As the first woe is past, this is the 5 months of locust things tormenting people, the 2nd woe is the slaughter of 1/3 of humanity by the 200,000,000 horsemen, so the trumpets are well within the first 3.5 years.

The sequence in the Revelation is this.

The seals are opened, 1-6. The servants of God are sealed. An innumerable multitude appears in heaven. Seal 7 is opened. Silence for 1/2 hour. Trumpets are given to the angels, and sounded.

The trumpets are sounded 1-6 during the first half. Seals 1-6 are opened before the trumpets are handed out and sounded.

And in between the 6th and 7th seals, we find this:

Angels are told to not allow harm until "the servants of God" are sealed. They are all Jews, and there are 12,000 from each of 12 tribes. This will be important later, as only these sealed ones will be immune from the locust things.

"The servants of God" is an inclusive term, all servants of God. Please bring me the books on the table. There is a stack of books. What am I asking for?

Peter tells us to not use our liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as servants of God. The Bible writers self-identify as servants of God. Colossians 4:12, Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ . . .

If the servants of God are sealed, and there are exactly 144,000 of them, and they are all Jews, then what happened to the rest of the believers?

Who is this innumerable multitude standing before the throne, from every nation tribe tongue people? Sir, you know. These are they who have come out of the great tribulation . . .

Did you know . . .

John demonstrably used "ek", out of, interchangeably with "apo", away from.

One simple example (I've cataloged quite a few) is where Luke correctly writes, quoting Jesus, "If I be lifted up from the earth", apo, away from the earth, John, quoting the same thing, writes "ek", as if to say, if I be lifted up out of the earth", but we have to understand this both in harmony with the other writers, and also with consideration towards how John used the language, as demonstrated in the text.

Even so . . . many understand this to be tribulation martyrs. Even my explanation allows both.

These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.

or

These are they who have come away from the great tribulation.



I see this passage as ambiguous, to be defined by other passages. There is later in the vision, as ones clearly identified as tribulation martyrs enter the heavenly. There is the complete absence of non-Jewish believers immediately before the 7th seal. There is the timing of the two witnesses that the beast is given power over the saints during the last 3.5 years, and this appearing in heaven is before, or at the beginning of the first 3.5 years.

So to interpret the less clear by the more clear, I conclude this is the church.

In short, my understanding is that the seals 1-6 are opened, then 144,000 Jews are sealed, then the 7th seal is opened, and then the 70th week begins, and God's wrath begins. And at some point before the Jews are sealed, the church is removed.

This is obviously much more to this, I simply offer this as a starting point.

Much love!
Mark

To all, since this forum isn't used much these days, No Opposing Arguments allowed. This is "in house" discussion.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby 4givenmuch on Thu May 31, 2018 10:12 pm

Thanks for laying it out!
Seek Humility!
User avatar
4givenmuch
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 3156
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:42 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:01 am

Hi Mark: Im at work now, but wanted to come and see if you posted on this. I am going to read this after work and see if I come up with any questions. It has been a long time since I really studied rapture timing, and tbh I have relied on my conclusions from the time I did, which put me somewhere in the mid to post trib area, but still with no solid time, since as is my personality, I really had more questions and unresolved "end pieces," which is common for me. I hate to commit to anything when I have questions, so it's been perfectly fine with me to not have a conclusion.
Maybe reading your comments and the discussion at large (as well as spending time back in those scriptures) will answer some questions.
GodsStudent
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:08 am

Mark,

What do you mean by this:

To all, since this forum isn't used much these days, No Opposing Arguments allowed. This is "in house" discussion
.

Are you saying that we are to take your pre-trib beliefs as final truth?

Just wondering.

Blessings,

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:57 am

Sonbeam wrote:Mark,

What do you mean by this:

To all, since this forum isn't used much these days, No Opposing Arguments allowed. This is "in house" discussion
.

Are you saying that we are to take your pre-trib beliefs as final truth?

Just wondering.

Blessings,

sonbeam


Hi sonbeam,

No, that's not what it means.

Herb set up "protected" forums for rapture timing discussions to avoid them turning into debates.

The idea is that this is a forum to explore the idea of "pre-trib rapture" among those who either accept the idea, or are honestly inquiring about the idea, rather than a debate between those who do and those who do not hold to pre-trib rapture timing.

Oppositional debate is for the debate forum, discussion between those in primary agreement, or simply seeking information, is for the protected forums.

Does that help?

We actually have a number of variations on pre-trib timing, naturally. So there are still things to talk about.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:39 am

I see. Thank you Mark.

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:25 am

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (NASB)


I think that God wants us to not be shaken by the things we hear. God want's us to be at peace, to be happy, not afraid, to enjoy the security He provides for us. He is, after all, our Father, and He loves us! He doesn't play games with us, He is not capricious, and wrote to us things He actually wants for us to know.

So when you think about our being gathered to the Lord at His coming, don't get all disturbed or bent out of shape because someone is saying the Day of the Lord is here.

Why would someone who was expecting the day of the Lord to come before being gathered to Him, why would that person be disturbed that the day of the Lord was here? Wouldn't that simply be the actual confirmation that the end time was truly upon us, and we could simply start counting days and watching the skies? It would be the complete confirmation of all they believe, wouldn't it?

Is pre-trib rapture really only a recent idea?

It's only if they were expecting to be gathered to Jesus before the day of the Lord that they would be disturbed by someone saying the day of the Lord is here. "Oh no!! We missed the rapture?? This is the Day of the Lord???"

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:15 pm

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:5 (ESV)


How is it that sudden destruction comes upon "them", not upon us? How is it that they will not escape, but apparently we do, since it comes on "them"?

But then, we are not in darkness, we're in a different kingdom.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:52 pm

In agreement with you Mark, on all points

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 3856
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:31 am

And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31 (ESV)


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food . . .

. . . And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Matthew 25:31-35a, 39-40 (ESV)


Two gatherings when Jesus comes, is one of them the rapture of the church?

The gathering of the Chosen, and the gathering of the nations.

If you were to as an Israelite of the day who "the chosen" and who "the nations" are, I believe they would tell you that the chosen are the Jews, and the nations are the gentiles.

30-40 years later, "the chosen", or "the elect", depending on how you translate, would be applied to the church. Should it be understood that way when it was used to describe the Jews when Jesus spoke it?

2 gatherings, one of "the chosen", later identified as "Jesus' brothers", the other, the nations. Some of the nations will be saved, invited to enter the kingdom. Some will not, and will be sent into punishment.

When Jesus says, ". . . the least of these my brothers", could He be referring to the church? We're born of God, and are Jesus' brothers and sisters.

Since some of the nations are saved, these would be the ones we'd call His brothers, except Jesus does not. Therefore, salvation is not the criteria by which they are known. It can only be the other option, Jesus' relatives, the Jews.

The Jews are gathered when Jesus returns. Then He sits on His throne, and the nations are gathered to be judged.

Neither of these could be the rapture.

The first is the Jews only. No gentiles, the nations are gathered later.

The second is a mixed crowd of saved and unsaved. And the criteria is not in trusting in Jesus, but how did they treat the Jews? So this cannot be the church.

The rapture does not occur when Jesus returns, at least, no so far as these passages tell us.

And these passages don't leave room for the rapture to occur either at that time, or afterward. All the saved are gathered, and Jesus in on earth.

So it has to happen earlier.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:09 pm

Hi EC,

Since this thread is to discuss rapture timing, I'd rather save other discussion for a different forum. But I'll be happy to take it up there. Please check in prophecy debate.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:26 am

Hi Mark: It seems to me that these terms, pretrib, prewrath, posttrib....all of them are being used by everyone in a very different way....which means when a person says "I am pretrib" they don't necessarily mean they believe Christ will remove the church before and real trouble starts, which others who are pretrib absolutely do believe.
I make that distinction because if I am reading what you wrote here and elsewhere correctly, your beliefs actually fall more towards what many would call a "prewrath" or "midtrib" viewpoint (based on what a lot of people consider these views).
Im good with the fact that we all study and discuss the actual words of the bible and put more emphasis on that than on being aligned with a particular label or theory regarding the time the rapture happens.

Since at least 2008, MY understanding of the "so named" pretrib theory was that before anything too much started happening, the saints would be yanked off the planet. I always felt that was dead wrong, and many who argued against that thinking were noting that things were already starting to get bad around here.

It almost seems to me that because we all have our own ideas about what we think others mean when they say "Pretrib, prewrath, midtrib and posttrib"......and even those vary, the only real way to discuss what a particular person believes scripture is teaching us is to have like a questionaire with specific "events" and ask if we believe the saints will be here to witness that or this event.

Example:

Do you believe the saints will be here when the antichrist reveals himself?
Do you believe the saints will be here when the two witnesses preach/teach?
Do you believe the saints will be here when the bowl judgments are going on?

and so on and so on.

From what it looks like you are saying above (and your narrative doesn't necessarily indicate whether you believe we will see all of those events spoken of).....your opinion, as best I can tell, aligns with my understanding of a "prewrath" or "mid trib" viewpoint. Clearly you don't see it that way because you are calling your theory pre trib.
Either way, I tend to see things more or less as you've described in your op.

Interesting.
GodsStudent
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby Jericho on Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:13 am

I guess my views of pre-trib are very traditional. I take a very literal approach and view Revelation in chronological order (with occasional flash forwards). I've never understood why people want to copy and paste the events of Revelation around when they wouldn't do this to any other book in the Bible. I also believe the tribulation is comprised of seven years, divided into two 3.5 years. The first half being tribulation, and the second half being great-tribulation. And I view the 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls all as God's judgement, and all future tense.

GodsStudent wrote:Since at least 2008, MY understanding of the "so named" pretrib theory was that before anything too much started happening, the saints would be yanked off the planet. I always felt that was dead wrong, and many who argued against that thinking were noting that things were already starting to get bad around here.


Hi GS. I have no doubt we will have to go through hard times, and bad things can and will happen to sinner and saint alike. A look at history will tell you that is true. Christians have gone through periods of persecution, and even now there are persecutions going on in parts of the world. But what pretrib does is make a distinction between tribulation that comes from the world, and tribulation that comes from God. Obviously, the various rapture positions differ exactly when God's wrath occurs. However, all of them, except for post-trib, are essentially pre-wrath and believe we will be removed before God judges the world. The main disagreement is the timing of it all and what constitutes as God's wrath\judgement.
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4553
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:50 am

GodsStudent wrote:Hi Mark: It seems to me that these terms, pretrib, prewrath, posttrib....all of them are being used by everyone in a very different way....which means when a person says "I am pretrib" they don't necessarily mean they believe Christ will remove the church before and real trouble starts, which others who are pretrib absolutely do believe.


Hi GS,

Please, make no misunderstanding, I am staunchly pre-trib in the way you are describing. I believe the church is removed from the earth before the real trouble begins.

I believe the rapture occurs just before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

I cannot say with exact certainty when the rapture occurs in relation to the first 6 seals. I I believe the Bible only allows the understanding that the church is in heaven before the 7th seal is opened, which begins the 70th week.

My pastor is adamant, the rapture happens before the first seal is opened. But then, he also thinks the 6th seal isn't opened until around the middle of the 7 years. I think all seals are opened all at once just before the 70th week begins, that the church is raptured, and the judgments begin.

The way I see it, pre-trib thinking was correct, but the foundation that was taught was filled with errors.

Pre-wrath saw those errors, and advanced the eschatological understanding, but with it's own errors.

Now I've advanced the eschatological understanding, back to a pre-trib view, but taking accounting for those things pre-wrath couldn't swallow. With my own errors? Of course not! :grin:

:lol:

This is why there is a similarity in the way it sounds, but a world apart in what it means.

So, does this help to illuminate my view? What are your thoughts?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:36 pm

Once more . . . this is not a debate forum.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:06 pm

Jericho wrote:I guess my views of pre-trib are very traditional. I take a very literal approach and view Revelation in chronological order (with occasional flash forwards). I've never understood why people want to copy and paste the events of Revelation around when they wouldn't do this to any other book in the Bible. I also believe the tribulation is comprised of seven years, divided into two 3.5 years. The first half being tribulation, and the second half being great-tribulation. And I view the 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls all as God's judgement, and all future tense.


Hi Jericho,

I think the reason is the same as when anyone says, "the text presents this, but we need to understand it as that". They hold a view that conflicts with Scripture, so even when the Bible says that "This come before that", it doesn't work for them that way, so they end up saying things like, It's from different perspectives, it's the mountain peaks, multilayered, we have to sort out which is which, it's apocalyptic, and I have the Key! However it plays out, they end up negating the words of Scripture in favor of their view.

Any number of answers people come up with. Just like in other doctrines that aren't correct, they have to some how explain the Scriptures which don't harmonize with their view. I find humility to offer the easy solution. I'm wrong when I disagree with God. But I can change my mind to match what He says.

Something I want to reiterate for safety sake, I see the seals as announcing the beginning of conditions which will exist on the earth throughout the 70th week, and that, while I see the rapture occurring at about that time, the things contained in the seals are things which will go on to impact the earth beginning at our removal.

GodsStudent wrote:Since at least 2008, MY understanding of the "so named" pretrib theory was that before anything too much started happening, the saints would be yanked off the planet. I always felt that was dead wrong, and many who argued against that thinking were noting that things were already starting to get bad around here.


Hi GS. I have no doubt we will have to go through hard times, and bad things can and will happen to sinner and saint alike. A look at history will tell you that is true. Christians have gone through periods of persecution, and even now there are persecutions going on in parts of the world. But what pretrib does is make a distinction between tribulation that comes from the world, and tribulation that comes from God. Obviously, the various rapture positions differ exactly when God's wrath occurs. However, all of them, except for post-trib, are essentially pre-wrath and believe we will be removed before God judges the world. The main disagreement is the timing of it all and what constitutes as God's wrath\judgement.


I have to agree with Jericho. Horrible things are being done to Christians today. I'm told that more Christians have been murdered because of their faith in Jesus in the past 100 years than in the remainder of the time since Jesus. They are being forced to live in locked shipping containers in the desert. They are being tortured to death.

My understanding of Pre-Trib Rapture is that there will come a time when Israel is back in place in their land (not the fulfillment of the future restoration, not until Jesus returns), the players all in position, and it will be time for God to fulfill His promise to save all of Israel, to bless them with their kingdom, and to place Jesus as their King. The church - the called out ones - will be removed, and the Gospel, which was taken from the Jews in Acts 28, will be returned to them as a nation.

They will be attacked, and delivered, with a great deliverance. Prophets will proclaim God's Word to them. And Satan will try to destroy humanity, and even all life on earth if possible. I think that leaving the earth as a smoking cinder would suit Satan just fine!

God expresses His anger against humanity, against the harlot, against the beast, as the plagues come, horrific in the extreme, then becoming worse. Satan is now confined to the earth, and, filled with anger, slaughters the Jews, and any who call on the Name of Jesus. And the plagues just get worse.

And then Jesus comes. And all who have endured to the end are saved. Jesus puts a stop to it.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby GodsStudent on Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:41 am

mark s wrote: I believe the rapture occurs just before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

I cannot say with exact certainty when the rapture occurs in relation to the first 6 seals. I I believe the Bible only allows the understanding that the church is in heaven before the 7th seal is opened, which begins the 70th week.

Much love!
Mark


Hi Mark:
Thanks for the discussion.
I think of scriptures that tell us of martyred saints. For that reason, I really wonder if the saints are here when satan comes on the scene and we are forced to stand for our belief in Christ and perish as a result......OR......show that we were never sincere in our love for Christ, and perish as a result.

What would you say to that?

Lets discuss this first, and then move on to my next question (s)......that way we dont get 55 topics running over one another....if that's ok with you? I want to iron out all my questions one at a time, if I get to have my way about it? :lol:


Also, loved your funny in the above post about your view being perfected now........was fun!!! :mrgreen: :lol:
GodsStudent
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:41 am

Hi GS,

Martyrs, seen in heaven on the sea of crystal now mixed with fire.

Martyrs under the altar, crying out for vengeance.

My understanding in a nutshell . . .

Rapture and resurrection of the Church, appearing in heaven before the throne on the crystal sea.
144,000 appear in heaven before the throne mid-week, apparently also on the crystal sea, being before the throne.
2 witness ascend into heaven.
Great tribulation is underway.
Those killed for Jesus during the tribulation appear in heaven, on the crystal sea now mixed with fire.
They are resurrected at the end of the 70th week, most likely to me at the same time as the OT faithful are resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 year kingdom.
Those who die during the kingdom die for cause, they remain dead.

The dead stand before God and are judged. The living are alive with Him forever.

To answer your question, I see this final time as a time in which God demands everyone's final answer. Make your decision, because this age is ending. We have already chosen. We are removed. Those who refused to choose, even though they knew, will be unable to choose. The will become deluded. And the rest, they will be forced to choose, upon either pain of death, or pain of eternal death. God help them!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: Why the pre-trib rapture?

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:58 am

Hi Mark: I perfectly understand your succinct answer and spelling out of the timing of the rapture (and interestingly, what is similar to a second rapture, towards the end, which may be something for post tribbers to consider, since many of them seem to be hung up on scripture talking of a taking up towards the end).
GodsStudent
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 11427
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:36 pm


Return to Pre-trib view only

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests