Why are you PreTrib?

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Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Ready1 on Fri May 05, 2017 1:57 pm

Everyone on this prophecy website has studied the prophetic scriptures.

1. And yet, there is every timing in the Book with regard to when the Lord Jesus will call believers out from this world.
2. And yet, we all study the same set of scriptures. Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, Matt & Mark, Thessalonians, & the minor Prophets.
3. And yet, you (if you are participating in this protected forum) have the viewpoint that Jesus will come for His "Bride" at least prior to the time of the great tribulation.

Why? What places you in this camp? What is your most compelling argument for your position? (Especially since it gets a little hairy around all of our good mid, post, & pre wrath friends. :grin: )

Just thought I'd ask...
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Jericho on Fri May 05, 2017 3:07 pm

I think there are so many different timings and theories on the rapture, simply because scriptures are not clear on the matter. This was probably intentional. Recall God concealed many things about the Messiah. He gave little hints and clues, but it was not fully understood until it happened. We are now about to connect the dots thanks to hindsight. There's probably several reasons why He does this such as not tipping off the enemy, and image how we would react if we knew the exact timing? We would cease to occupy until he came.

I could articulate why I am pre-trib, but it's easier to just point to what I've already said on the subject:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=61964&p=530870#p530870
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun May 07, 2017 10:25 am

I believe it because that is what study and research has shown me is true. The simple reading of the book of Revelation at least IMO lays events out in the order they occur. Opening of the seals followed by sounding of the trumpets, followed by pouring of the bowls. Consecutively and in order. (The scroll being the 70th week itself containing the trumpet and bowl judgments.)

More here about why I came to this conclusion
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=71497

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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby 4givenmuch on Sun May 07, 2017 3:25 pm

I believe it is the heart of Jesus for His bride. He loves us.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Ready1 on Tue May 09, 2017 8:39 pm

Thanks Jericho,

Your reasons are the same as many of our reasons! They seem reasonable and literal. I appreciated reading them again.

Here is another reason that pretrib seems reasonable to me.

What is the commission of the Church?

The commission of the church is to be a separate, holy, people to the Lord, and to

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

To my knowledge, there is no place in the NT which indicates that Christians would all be regathered to any specific point. The command was to “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” And the Church has gone to the world. As a member of the Church, I have no expectation of being brought back from the “four winds”. The only expectation that I have is, "For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed."

While there has been some scattering of the church by virtue of persecution, that persecution only worked to further the plan of God by insuring that the Gospel went out to the world. The following scriptures are the prominent NT scriptures to specifically indicate this.

Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Act 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word.

Act 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.



What was the commission of Israel?

Israel was to be a holy nation unto the Lord, a called out nation who was to worship the God who had worked mighty miracles on their behalf. The sovereign Lord repeatedly told them that if they were obedient to their God, they would receive his blessing and be a testimony to all the heathen around them. On the other hand, if they were disobedient to their God, he would discipline them for all their sins. And God repeatedly told them that if they continued in their sin, He would remove them from their land. The following are a few of the scriptures which refer to God dispersing, or scattering, them if they continued in their disobedience. And then there are some of them which refer to God gathering them back to Himself and their land again.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Neh 1:8 Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:
Neh 1:9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
Isa 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.


Jer 9:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.
Jer 9:16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.

Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.


Jer 31:8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.


Eze 11:15 Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.
Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
Eze 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.


Eze 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.


Eze 20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
Eze 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.


Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.


Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:



So when I see scriptures which indicate that God is sending his angels out to gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, I just do not see that as anything other than a fulfillment of the above scriptures. I certainly do NOT see the church in Matt 24. And if it is not the church that the "elect" is referring to, then all of these scriptures (and many others) will be fulfilled when the Lord gathers Israel back to Himself prior to the 1000 year reign.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


That is another one of my reasons.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Mark F on Sun May 14, 2017 1:04 pm

Ready1 wrote:Everyone on this prophecy website has studied the prophetic scriptures.

1. And yet, there is every timing in the Book with regard to when the Lord Jesus will call believers out from this world.
2. And yet, we all study the same set of scriptures. Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, Matt & Mark, Thessalonians, & the minor Prophets.
3. And yet, you (if you are participating in this protected forum) have the viewpoint that Jesus will come for His "Bride" at least prior to the time of the great tribulation.

Why? What places you in this camp? What is your most compelling argument for your position? (Especially since it gets a little hairy around all of our good mid, post, & pre wrath friends. :grin: )

Just thought I'd ask...


Because the Bride of Christ has no purpose in the great tribulation. I could list many passages that give a clear reason why Israel will suffer through it, but zero reasons for the Church.

So the simplest reason is that God has different plans and different destinies for the Church and Israel. Nothing can be accomplished in and for the Church (or an individual believer) by the Great Tribulation that has not already been given to us that are in Christ Jesus. We currently posses every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Mark

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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby christian_m0mmy on Sun May 21, 2017 9:15 am

I posted this in a facebook group almost a week ago

I have been accused of being a "hard core pre-trib fanatic". A very close family member is refusing to have any contact with me until I take time to consider the pre-wrath view.

When I have tried to understand the other views, here are some sticking points that keep me in the pre-trib view:

I believe that the Restrainer is the church. Satan can't do anything until the Church is taken out of the way.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I believe we are not appointed to wrath. Not the wrath of the Lamb, of God or even of Satan.

1Th 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Even Rev 12:4-5 says that Satan is trying to devour us, but we are taken up to the Throne of God.

I believe Apostasy has a dual meaning. Not opposite, but dual. The newer and more accepted definition is "turning away from God or Truth". I believe this is true, but 2Thess 2:3 is saying THE apostasy. A particular event, not a gradual.

So the second meaning is "the departing".

There are a few other things I believe pretty strongly about, but I want to be open to learn. I don't want to hold on to my pre-concieved notions just because I am comfortable with them.

I would rather know the truth, than be right. If I seem like I'm arguing, please understand I am struggling. I want to see it, but I have to get "there" my way. I have a particular way of figuring things out. But once I get it, I do understand it.


Now, ignore the part about wanting to know about pre-wrath, but the comments just didn't do it for me. The verses they felt proved pre-wrath, I saw as 100% pre-trib.

People tried to suggest other interpretations of who the Restrainer might be...but none of them made sense. A couple of people even suggested it was Satan who was restraining the Church!! :faint:

Then there was not only the wondering if it is pre-wrath, but a disagreement as to when wrath began!! So, yeah, instead of letting people put a million different possibilities in my head and hopelessly confusing me, I left that group and now I will just pray that my family member will trust my love for her and not feel afraid that I will beat her up.
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Col 2:6 You have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord. Now keep on following him.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby shorttribber on Sun May 21, 2017 2:57 pm

christian_m0mmy wrote:I posted this in a facebook group almost a week ago

Seems to me that it is just plain ridiculous to have such contention and division over rapture ideas.
It's understandable that people could be desirous to have a pretribber consider other things for the sake of warning and so on but....people just go too far in their attempts I think.

We all need to realize that God is mighty to save and to bring his people to where he wants us, and to give us the understanding we need...when we need it.

We Love God...and He knows that....we can Rest in Him, and Trust Him....we believe the things we do for many various reasons. God knows those reasons better than we ourselves do, and He will Bring us to His throne Gloriously, and we will all agree with Him and His Method and Timing to do so when that time comes.

Until then, Reach Souls, Love the saints, and all people that he places us in contact with.

:banana: God is Faithful. :banana:
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Jericho on Sun May 21, 2017 5:37 pm

I agree shorttribber. Some Christians get so focused on these minor disagreements that it becomes divisive. It shouldn't be that way. This isn't a salvation issue, and God doesn't care if we are pre-trib, pre-wrath, or whatever. We are commanded to love one another, and that should be our primary focus.
Last edited by Jericho on Sun May 21, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun May 21, 2017 8:17 pm

I don't see how anyone can be sure about rapture timing. I've searched the scriptures every which way for years and still haven't figured it out. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. That's how I look at it.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Mark F on Mon May 22, 2017 3:40 am

christian_m0mmy wrote:I posted this in a facebook group almost a week ago

I have been accused of being a "hard core pre-trib fanatic". A very close family member is refusing to have any contact with me until I take time to consider the pre-wrath view.

When I have tried to understand the other views, here are some sticking points that keep me in the pre-trib view:

I believe that the Restrainer is the church. Satan can't do anything until the Church is taken out of the way.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

I believe we are not appointed to wrath. Not the wrath of the Lamb, of God or even of Satan.

1Th 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Even Rev 12:4-5 says that Satan is trying to devour us, but we are taken up to the Throne of God.

I believe Apostasy has a dual meaning. Not opposite, but dual. The newer and more accepted definition is "turning away from God or Truth". I believe this is true, but 2Thess 2:3 is saying THE apostasy. A particular event, not a gradual.

So the second meaning is "the departing".

There are a few other things I believe pretty strongly about, but I want to be open to learn. I don't want to hold on to my pre-concieved notions just because I am comfortable with them.

I would rather know the truth, than be right. If I seem like I'm arguing, please understand I am struggling. I want to see it, but I have to get "there" my way. I have a particular way of figuring things out. But once I get it, I do understand it.


Now, ignore the part about wanting to know about pre-wrath, but the comments just didn't do it for me. The verses they felt proved pre-wrath, I saw as 100% pre-trib.

People tried to suggest other interpretations of who the Restrainer might be...but none of them made sense. A couple of people even suggested it was Satan who was restraining the Church!! :faint:

Then there was not only the wondering if it is pre-wrath, but a disagreement as to when wrath began!! So, yeah, instead of letting people put a million different possibilities in my head and hopelessly confusing me, I left that group and now I will just pray that my family member will trust my love for her and not feel afraid that I will beat her up.


Pre-wrath is technically pre-trib anyway, doesn't it move the rapture closer to, or after the AOD? From what I remember because it has been so long since I studied the other ideas, there really isn't a whole lot different between the two, surely not worth loosing a relationship over. Maybe you should bring up the things that you agree on - like salvation and such. As ST, Jericho, and extravagantchristian point out above God will still save us even if we believed a wrong rapture theory.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby christian_m0mmy on Mon May 22, 2017 6:41 am

Mark F wrote:
Pre-wrath is technically pre-trib anyway, doesn't it move the rapture closer to, or after the AOD? From what I remember because it has been so long since I studied the other ideas, there really isn't a whole lot different between the two, surely not worth loosing a relationship over. Maybe you should bring up the things that you agree on - like salvation and such. As ST, Jericho, and extravagantchristian point out above God will still save us even if we believed a wrong rapture theory.



Oh, I agree, Mark! It was all in a private message. She basically called the rapture ridiculous, then said she believed pre-wrath, and asked me to look at the evidence for 7 days before replying to her. She then said that the book of Revelation isn't even a real book of the bible.

I immediately told her that I would consider anything she wanted me to look at, and that even if I didn't agree with her I would never argue, we are family and I wouldn't do that. She never gave me any other information, no links, no verses, nothing to "study" for 7 days. I texted once, called once and finally posted a comment to a video she shared asking if this was related to the matter she suggested the other day, and then she finally responded with "don't talk to me anymore, you've said enough, I"m done and blocking you"

Well she isn't very tech savvy when it comes to facebook and hasn't actually blocked me, but I leave her alone. The most confusing thing is, everything she is sharing is from people who teach pre-trib, and she even quotes the book of Revelation!

I have been devastated. I finally reached out to a group on facebook with my post from above, but that hasn't worked out. I just don't understand.

Sorry for blathering on, I don't know who else to confide this with, lol. She is the only other person in my family who gets my excitement when it comes to prophecy. I am very sad, but believe me, this avoidance is not my choice at all. I would happily welcome her back with all forgiveness and love. But yeah, I figured I'd share why I am pre-trib here since this is where I first realized where I stood, lol.

My first post ever, here was in this topic asking why people believed in pre-trib, then an admin moved it to the debate area or the Q and A and I freaked out begging her to move it back here where I felt safe and not attacked lol.

Love to you all!
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Col 2:6 You have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord. Now keep on following him.
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Re: Why are you PreTrib?

Postby Spreading Salt on Tue May 23, 2017 6:00 am

Here is a very long list of great reasons for your reading pleasure :) SS

http://www.jesusisthecomingking.com/201 ... pture.html
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