When Jesus Christ comes back

Where anyone can ask or answer a question.

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 01, 2020 10:29 pm

Ready1 wrote:Then, according to your thinking, because I am one of the few left, I am to take comfort in the fact that I will be caught up with Him in the air. Not much comfort, because it doesn't apply to most believers. And there is certainly no guarantee that any of us will even have a remote chance to make it to that point.


Not according to My Thinking, it's according to Paul's thinking as well, Whether we Live OR Die, Comfort yourselves!

Find any place in the 3 chapters prior to the 4th where Paul mentions Any Comfort in being Able to Escape Persecution or tribulation of ANY Kind Ready. And in the 4th, find Any mention of it either.

He does mention Joy and Comfort in Afflictions and Persevering Faith though....below are a few examples leading up to 1Thes 4:18..for Real and Accurate Context.

1 Thes 1:
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:................
..............................10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.......................................
.............................1 Thes 2: 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:..............
.............................1 Thes 3: 3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know...........
....................7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:
8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;..............12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.................
..........................1 Thes 4: 9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another......
...................13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
.............................
.........................1Thes 5: 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Ready1 wrote:Then, according to your thinking, because I am one of the few left, I am to take comfort in the fact that I will be caught up with Him in the air. Not much comfort, because it doesn't apply to most believers. And there is certainly no guarantee that any of us will even have a remote chance to make it to that point.

So, it is incumbent upon me to repeat myself, because of the importance i see in doing so, That No Reader should overlook it.

"Not according to My Thinking, it's according to Paul's thinking as well, Whether we Live OR Die, Comfort yourselves!"

So, i answered your Last question First, as to, "Comfort Yourselves with These Words".

You said, "not much comfort".
To me, it seems a matter of perspective, in Where Comfort Actually Exists. Comfort should not Exist for us in the Temporal World, but Wholly and Completely IN Christ and in Communion WITH HIM and His Testimony to this Fallen World AND US.

We are to be Fearless because Perfect Love casts out fear. Fear Not! Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Sonbeam, THAT IS the Gospel!

Faith


Hope


Love


We do Not know the Day or the Hour, but we Could very well be in That Season. Go Out with Our Lamps Burning Bright day and Night, the time is short and the night is far spent, redeem the Time!
Bible prophecy IS the Gospel, the Gospel was First Preached BEFORE to Abraham! THAT is why i do what i do on this forum, i Teach the Gospel that was First Preached to Abraham, Confirmed to Him by an OATH, and Made with Covenant Cut!
I Teach Christ and Him Crucified, as the CENTER of ALL Bible prophecy, with a Covenant Cut, having Confirmed the Abrahamic promise as the Absolute CENTER of Bible prophecy.

I am Comforted in Knowing that Christ WILL be Faithful to all of us, His Name is Faithful,(Rev 19) and whether i Live OR Die, or my Family Lives or Dies or my brothers and Sisters in Christ Live or Die, I am Comforted, Hopeful, and Faithfully looking Forward to Walking in the Kind of Love and Power He Wants us to Experience.

And We WILL Experience it!
And to Keith, Yes, We Can experience it here and now, but it will take what God has in store for us, it's not my call, it's His.

By "in store for us", i'm not referring to His Wrath, THAT is not what He Has For Us. What He has for us is Unreserved POWER and Authority Over Our Own Fear, The Kind of Power and Authority that Owns Faith Hope and Love.

:banana: It Belongs to the Saints! We Own it! it's Time we Used what we Own! And i Beleive we very shortly will! :banana:


32 Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:
33 To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.
34 Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.
35 O God, thou art terrible out of thy holy places: the God of Israel is he that giveth strength and power unto his people. Blessed be God.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Sun May 03, 2020 3:14 pm

I think you have misconstrued what I said (or maybe I just didn’t say it very well). There is comfort in the 1 Thes 4. But the comfort is that we are not to have misconceptions regarding those who have died (asleep). Because Jesus died and rose again, and because he is the first fruits of them that slept, he will bring the dead with him when he comes. Furthermore, those of us who are Christians and are present when He comes will not go ahead of the “dead in Christ”. Their resurrected bodies rise before we do. Then, we follow on their heels and meet the Lord in the air, to forever be with the Lord.

The comfort, for each one of us, is the knowledge that all believers, past and present go to be with Jesus in their turns.

For a preTribber, there is tremendous comfort in that we are to go with Jesus into heaven and participate in the marriage of the Lamb. (Of course we would see the Judgement seat of Christ in this interim as well.) I would see a great multitude of current, living believers and all of those that have died in Christ Jesus will be taken to be with Him.

Because I see the utter devastation of the earth and the death of almost all of humanity, I would say that the postTrib position doesn’t have very many living souls to be comforted by these words. You may be comforted in knowing that your deaths will be avenged and that your bodies will rise ahead of those who are alive, but there will not be very many in that group of people who are alive. I have previously alluded to the fact that by the close of the time immediately preceding the millennium, there will be very few left alive upon the earth.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Now does the following statement make more sense to you? (I really didn't need a exposition on Thessalonians. :grin: )

In other words, I have to make it all the way through the seven seals and the seven trumpets where billions of people die and a majority of all the people of the earth are killed before I really need to look for the return of Jesus. Then, according to your thinking, because I am one of the few left, I am to take comfort in the fact that I will be caught up with Him in the air. Not much comfort, because it doesn't apply to most believers. And there is certainly no guarantee that any of us will even have a remote chance to make it to that point.


With regard to my other question:

How can Jesus say to me "Watch; for you do not know what hour the Lord comes", when he has told us precisely when He is coming? How can He say that no one knows when it will be, when He told us exactly when it will be? How can it be that "in an hour you think not, the Son of Man comes" when He has told every believer when He is coming?

Then there is another burning question. WHY SHOULD I WATCH when I know precisely when He is coming? All I have to do is watch for the signs but I really don't have to watch for Him. Why?

I haven’t been able to follow your answer to the above question.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby shorttribber on Mon May 04, 2020 1:01 pm

I don't believe i misconstrued or misunderstood any part of what you said regarding that particular text Ready, i've heard and read it many times, as it's among the favorite supposed proof texts for pre-trib....the "comfort one another with these words".

At any rate, i will comment further and in detail about not knowing the day nor hour in my Tabernacles thread.

It's really something i must attend to soon, i've been trying to get at it for some time, which also means i must leave this thread and commenting on it for a while.

Many of God's blessings to you Ready, and with honest love and respect for you brother :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby bchandler on Tue May 05, 2020 9:32 am

One of the biggest mistakes people make in reading the bible is to pull scriptures out of context, and put them together, even mixing them up, in their attempt to understand prophecy. I see a lot of this kind of thing in these debate threads.

For this reason, and for the general purpose of understanding all of scripture, the science of Hermeneutics is used to help keep perspective, order, continuity, and prevent misunderstanding.

I really wish more people would follow these principles when reading and interpreting scripture. For some, misinterpretation comes from an innocent attempt to understand, while others deliberately violate hermeneutics to support their own ideas, or to manipulate others into following/obeying them, as we have seen in the NAR movement in many churches today.

One of my favorite people on this board went by the handle of Perigrini. He and a couple of others held some of the most thorough debates on subjects like this one. And they were the first to really introduce me to hermeneutics. I would encourage anyone who wants to REALLY LEARN how to read and interpret scripture, and prophecy correctly to at least make a cursory investigation into how to apply the rules of hermeneutics to their studies.

I say all of this to come to this point.

Most people I know, even many learned theologians, see all of the tribulations of revelation as God's wrath. But it isn't.

We see over and over again in Revelation that things happen, and people fail to repent... All the way up to the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. Immediately after the last trumpet, we see the harvest of wheat (believers), followed immediately by the harvest of WRATH. We even have an angel announcing that the seven bowl/vial judgements are God's UNDILUTED WRATH.

We are told over and over in scripture that we will face tribulation, so what makes us think we will escape the great one, when we are told we will suffer them? It is the WRATH that we are not appointed to, which begins with the seven bowls, and ends at the great white throne judgement, and lake of fire.

Scripture tells us where on earth the battle of armageddon will occur. So why would we ever interpret this as anything but a physical war? Especially when you look at the description of the aftermath?

I think that understanding the difference between tribulation, which the saints are told they will face, and wrath, which the saints are told is not appointed to them, is a critical dividing line in understanding revelation and eschatology.
I am not a god or a doctor, and nothing i say should be construed as medical advice or even as correct. I am merely a living soul who is exercising my unalienable rights, endowed upon me by my creator, and recognized in the Constitution for the united States of America, to freely speak about the things i believe. No other soul should grant my words any weight without first determining their credibility and/or accuracy for themselves.
User avatar
bchandler
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:22 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby shorttribber on Tue May 05, 2020 10:06 am

bchandler wrote:One of the biggest mistakes people make in reading the bible is to pull scriptures out of context, and put them together, even mixing them up, in their attempt to understand prophecy. I see a lot of this kind of thing in these debate threads.

For this reason, and for the general purpose of understanding all of scripture, the science of Hermeneutics is used to help keep perspective, order, continuity, and prevent misunderstanding.

I really wish more people would follow these principles when reading and interpreting scripture. For some, misinterpretation comes from an innocent attempt to understand, while others deliberately violate hermeneutics to support their own ideas, or to manipulate others into following/obeying them, as we have seen in the NAR movement in many churches today.

One of my favorite people on this board went by the handle of Perigrini. He and a couple of others held some of the most thorough debates on subjects like this one. And they were the first to really introduce me to hermeneutics. I would encourage anyone who wants to REALLY LEARN how to read and interpret scripture, and prophecy correctly to at least make a cursory investigation into how to apply the rules of hermeneutics to their studies.

I say all of this to come to this point.

Most people I know, even many learned theologians, see all of the tribulations of revelation as God's wrath. But it isn't.

We see over and over again in Revelation that things happen, and people fail to repent... All the way up to the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. Immediately after the last trumpet, we see the harvest of wheat (believers), followed immediately by the harvest of WRATH. We even have an angel announcing that the seven bowl/vial judgements are God's UNDILUTED WRATH.

We are told over and over in scripture that we will face tribulation, so what makes us think we will escape the great one, when we are told we will suffer them? It is the WRATH that we are not appointed to, which begins with the seven bowls, and ends at the great white throne judgement, and lake of fire.

Scripture tells us where on earth the battle of armageddon will occur. So why would we ever interpret this as anything but a physical war? Especially when you look at the description of the aftermath?

I think that understanding the difference between tribulation, which the saints are told they will face, and wrath, which the saints are told is not appointed to them, is a critical dividing line in understanding revelation and eschatology.

100% agree....... :a3: on each and Every point
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Exit40 on Wed May 06, 2020 6:30 am

bchandler wrote:One of my favorite people on this board went by the handle of Perigrini.


I remember Perigrini. His influence is still felt here on this board. One of his posts in particular I recommend reviewing is in the Debate section here. It is pinned near the top, can't miss it.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 9519
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Wed May 06, 2020 2:54 pm

bchandler wrote:One of the biggest mistakes people make in reading the bible is to pull scriptures out of context, and put them together, even mixing them up, in their attempt to understand prophecy. I see a lot of this kind of thing in these debate threads.

For this reason, and for the general purpose of understanding all of scripture, the science of Hermeneutics is used to help keep perspective, order, continuity, and prevent misunderstanding.

I really wish more people would follow these principles when reading and interpreting scripture. For some, misinterpretation comes from an innocent attempt to understand, while others deliberately violate hermeneutics to support their own ideas, or to manipulate others into following/obeying them, as we have seen in the NAR movement in many churches today.

One of my favorite people on this board went by the handle of Perigrini. He and a couple of others held some of the most thorough debates on subjects like this one. And they were the first to really introduce me to hermeneutics. I would encourage anyone who wants to REALLY LEARN how to read and interpret scripture, and prophecy correctly to at least make a cursory investigation into how to apply the rules of hermeneutics to their studies.

I say all of this to come to this point.

Most people I know, even many learned theologians, see all of the tribulations of revelation as God's wrath. But it isn't.

We see over and over again in Revelation that things happen, and people fail to repent... All the way up to the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. Immediately after the last trumpet, we see the harvest of wheat (believers), followed immediately by the harvest of WRATH. We even have an angel announcing that the seven bowl/vial judgements are God's UNDILUTED WRATH.

We are told over and over in scripture that we will face tribulation, so what makes us think we will escape the great one, when we are told we will suffer them? It is the WRATH that we are not appointed to, which begins with the seven bowls, and ends at the great white throne judgement, and lake of fire.

Scripture tells us where on earth the battle of armageddon will occur. So why would we ever interpret this as anything but a physical war? Especially when you look at the description of the aftermath?

I think that understanding the difference between tribulation, which the saints are told they will face, and wrath, which the saints are told is not appointed to them, is a critical dividing line in understanding revelation and eschatology.


:a3: Amen, I totally agree..well said...!

We must persevere in the Lord and comfort one another, we must be soldiers for Christ!! I'm ready if the Great Tribulation were to begin tomorrow! We must be prepared spiritual and accept what the Bible teaches us, that we will be in the Great Tribulations..God is with us all the way!

Many Blessings!
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu May 07, 2020 12:18 pm

Ready1 wrote:I have a question for all who would be willing to respond.

When Jesus returns and collects his church, according to your viewpoint, what happens next? Where does he go? What does he do? Is it earth based? or is it heaven based? What are your reasons/scriptural references?

I suspect that there will be a division between preTrib and preWrath/postTrib. But do preWrath and postTrib answer this question the same?


As I've read through some of the responses on this Thread - all I can say is your questions would better be answered when one understands the DAY OF THE LORD. Because until one understands the details in what the Day of the Lord encompasses to include both literal; figurative - and symbolic languages it will be just a debate.

When Jesus Christ Returns - it will be the LAST DAY.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Thu May 07, 2020 3:42 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:When Jesus Christ Returns - it will be the LAST DAY.


Then what happens?
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu May 07, 2020 7:20 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:When Jesus Christ Returns - it will be the LAST DAY.


Then what happens?


I think it would be a good idea to understand that the Day of The Lord is the Last Day.

It really won't matter "What Happens" from believers standpoint at that time because when He Appears Eternity Occurs.

Let me just mention some points of Scriptural reference so that one can make their own determination:

Joel 2:1-11 - New American Standard Bible

1) Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the Lord is coming; Surely it is near, 2) A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. 3) A fire consumes before them And behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them But a desolate wilderness behind them, And nothing at all escapes them.4) Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like war horses, so they run. 5)With a noise as of chariots They leap on the tops of the mountains, Like the crackling of a flame of fire consuming the stubble, Like a mighty people arranged for battle. 6) Before them the people are in anguish; All faces turn pale. 7) They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like soldiers; And they each march in line, Nor do they deviate from their paths. 8) They do not crowd each other, They march everyone in his path; When they burst through the defenses, They do not break ranks. 9) They rush on the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter through the windows like a thief.10) Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble, The sun and the moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness.11) The Lord utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, For strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?


Malachi 4:1 - New American Standard Bible

For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”


Zephaniah 1:18 - New American Standard Bible

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the Lord’s wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 - New American Standard Bible

The Day of the Lord

1) Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2) For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3) While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.


2 Peter 3:7-10 - New American Standard Bible

7) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.


2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 - New American Standard Bible

5) This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6) For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7) and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


I believe the aforementioned verses of Scripture give a very clear view and indication of what happens "When Jesus Christ comes back."

You see - I no longer believe there is a literal so-called "Millennial Kingdom" where those in mortal bodies are allowed to dwell with those in immortal bodies; (having become saved during the Great Tribulation) and those with mortal bodies are allowed to populate the Earth so that Satan deceives them after the "little season" mentioned in Revelation 20.

When Jesus Comes - so does His Kingdom. There is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous - as mentioned in Daniel 12:2 & John 5:28-29 - this is not separated by a 1,000 year Millennial Reign.

John 5:28-29 - New American Standard Bible


28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Judgment ensues at His Coming - and Eternity begins for ALL - be it Heaven or Hell.

I think that it's very important to understand Scripture in a very practical way - one in which the proper hermeneutics are applied; without sensationalism; imaginary hocus pocus fairy tale like ideas applied - and without preconceived ideas, emotions or feelings. Some want to take one chapter in the Book of Revelation namely; Chapter 19 - and draw the conclusion that it is the entire End Time scenario. I have seen absolutely no point in having a Millennial Kingdom; a rebuilt Temple - or anything other than a single man (Antichrist; aka: False Prophet) ruling a single End Time Kingdom.

It ALL Ends At His Return.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu May 07, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy!
How is it going?
Thanks for posting the scriptures... I needed to see where you were coming from on your views.... very interesting!

I've always had in my mind, when we are changed in a twinkling of an eye and meet Jesus in the clouds, then we are in a spiritual time zone as God...know what I'm saying?

Many Blessings bro!
In Christ Always,
Woody
WOODHENOT3
 
Posts: 1118
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:07 pm

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 07, 2020 8:29 pm

“Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.”
Jeremiah 33:3 (KJV)

Did anybody notice how the above text is not a suggestion, but rather a Command?

.................................................................................................................................................

Mr Baldy...you said this...
Mr Baldy wrote:When Jesus Comes - so does His Kingdom.


But scripture says in plain English, the following....
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


I've asked many times of anybody why can't people just accept what this scripture plain says.

I do know why though, it doesn't fit quite right if understood in the "Literal Sense" for all other prophetic viewpoints except shorttrib/prewrath.

maybe that's Why people should rethink their current ideas instead of Forcing the Word of God to Comply with errant opinions.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu May 07, 2020 9:06 pm

Ready1,

I think the rapture could happen any time after the antichrist is revealed.

I think the church will be here for some of the persecution and falling away.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am
Location: KS

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Thu May 07, 2020 9:17 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Ready1,

I think the rapture could happen any time after the antichrist is revealed.

I think the church will be here for some of the persecution and falling away.


Then what?
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Thu May 07, 2020 9:24 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:You see - I no longer believe there is a literal so-called "Millennial Kingdom" where those in mortal bodies are allowed to dwell with those in immortal bodies; (having become saved during the Great Tribulation) and those with mortal bodies are allowed to populate the Earth so that Satan deceives them after the "little season" mentioned in Revelation 20.

Judgment ensues at His Coming - and Eternity begins for ALL - be it Heaven or Hell.

I think that it's very important to understand Scripture in a very practical way - one in which the proper hermeneutics are applied; without sensationalism; imaginary hocus pocus fairy tale like ideas applied - and without preconceived ideas, emotions or feelings. Some want to take one chapter in the Book of Revelation namely; Chapter 19 - and draw the conclusion that it is the entire End Time scenario. I have seen absolutely no point in having a Millennial Kingdom; a rebuilt Temple - or anything other than a single man (Antichrist; aka: False Prophet) ruling a single End Time Kingdom.

It ALL Ends At His Return.


One thing we know for sure. If the Lord had let Mr Baldy write the Revelation instead of the Apostle John, there would not be nearly as many mistakes and errors in it as there are now!

:read2:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Jericho on Thu May 07, 2020 10:54 pm

I think that it's very important to understand Scripture in a very practical way - one in which the proper hermeneutics are applied; without sensationalism; imaginary hocus pocus fairy tale like ideas applied - and without preconceived ideas, emotions or feelings. Some want to take one chapter in the Book of Revelation namely; Chapter 19 - and draw the conclusion that it is the entire End Time scenario. I have seen absolutely no point in having a Millennial Kingdom; a rebuilt Temple - or anything other than a single man (Antichrist; aka: False Prophet) ruling a single End Time Kingdom.


So basically just allegorize scripture until it means what you think it should mean. Could it be that just because YOU don't see a point that one doesn't exist?
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4988
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri May 08, 2020 6:25 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I've always had in my mind, when we are changed in a twinkling of an eye and meet Jesus in the clouds, then we are in a spiritual time zone as God...know what I'm saying?


Good Day to you Woody :grin:

Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying - You hit the nail on the Head!

In viewing the responses to what I wrote, I can feel the da luv bro :mrgreen:

Scripture describes our gathering unto the Lord at His Coming - which is synonymous with the Day of the Lord. At His Coming we will immediately receive Glorified Bodies and Forever in Eternity. At His Coming this universe will experience such extraordinary climatic cosmic changes that it goes beyond human comprehension. We must remember according to Scripture changes in the sun, moon, and stars have occurred just prior to His Return. According to the description given the Universe appears to have a level of darkness - until He Appears.

Jesus describes His Return as:

Matthew 24:27 - New American Standard Bible

For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


There is no secret about His Return. It's a Glorious Return - and Every eye shall see Him across the Universe.

In closing - I'm really not trying to convince anyone about what I have mentioned. Nor am I trying to persuade anyone that my interpretation of Scripture is right. I just encourage everyone to read Scripture for themselves.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Sonbeam on Fri May 08, 2020 6:58 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Ready1 wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:When Jesus Christ Returns - it will be the LAST DAY.


Then what happens?


I think it would be a good idea to understand that the Day of The Lord is the Last Day.

It really won't matter "What Happens" from believers standpoint at that time because when He Appears Eternity Occurs.

Let me just mention some points of Scriptural reference so that one can make their own determination:

Joel 2:1-11 - New American Standard Bible

1) Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the Lord is coming; Surely it is near, 2) A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. 3) A fire consumes before them And behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them But a desolate wilderness behind them, And nothing at all escapes them.4) Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like war horses, so they run. 5)With a noise as of chariots They leap on the tops of the mountains, Like the crackling of a flame of fire consuming the stubble, Like a mighty people arranged for battle. 6) Before them the people are in anguish; All faces turn pale. 7) They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like soldiers; And they each march in line, Nor do they deviate from their paths. 8) They do not crowd each other, They march everyone in his path; When they burst through the defenses, They do not break ranks. 9) They rush on the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter through the windows like a thief.10) Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble, The sun and the moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness.11) The Lord utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, For strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the Lord is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?


Malachi 4:1 - New American Standard Bible

For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”


Zephaniah 1:18 - New American Standard Bible

Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the Lord’s wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 - New American Standard Bible

The Day of the Lord

1) Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2) For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3) While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.


2 Peter 3:7-10 - New American Standard Bible

7) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.


2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 - New American Standard Bible

5) This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6) For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7) and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


I believe the aforementioned verses of Scripture give a very clear view and indication of what happens "When Jesus Christ comes back."

You see - I no longer believe there is a literal so-called "Millennial Kingdom" where those in mortal bodies are allowed to dwell with those in immortal bodies; (having become saved during the Great Tribulation) and those with mortal bodies are allowed to populate the Earth so that Satan deceives them after the "little season" mentioned in Revelation 20.

When Jesus Comes - so does His Kingdom. There is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous - as mentioned in Daniel 12:2 & John 5:28-29 - this is not separated by a 1,000 year Millennial Reign.

John 5:28-29 - New American Standard Bible


28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Judgment ensues at His Coming - and Eternity begins for ALL - be it Heaven or Hell.

I think that it's very important to understand Scripture in a very practical way - one in which the proper hermeneutics are applied; without sensationalism; imaginary hocus pocus fairy tale like ideas applied - and without preconceived ideas, emotions or feelings. Some want to take one chapter in the Book of Revelation namely; Chapter 19 - and draw the conclusion that it is the entire End Time scenario. I have seen absolutely no point in having a Millennial Kingdom; a rebuilt Temple - or anything other than a single man (Antichrist; aka: False Prophet) ruling a single End Time Kingdom.

It ALL Ends At His Return.


Agree. Thank you for posting all the relevant scriptures Mr B


:blessyou:


sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri May 08, 2020 7:22 am

Ready1 wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:Ready1,

I think the rapture could happen any time after the antichrist is revealed.

I think the church will be here for some of the persecution and falling away.


Then what?


We'll be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we'll hang out up there for a little while, during the worst part of the tribulation. Then we'll come back to earth with Jesus to stay for 1,000 years. Then the judgment, Then the new heavens and new earth.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3652
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am
Location: KS

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Sat May 09, 2020 4:04 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:
Ready1 wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:Ready1,

I think the rapture could happen any time after the antichrist is revealed.

I think the church will be here for some of the persecution and falling away.


Then what?


We'll be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we'll hang out up there for a little while, during the worst part of the tribulation. Then we'll come back to earth with Jesus to stay for 1,000 years. Then the judgment, Then the new heavens and new earth.


When we "hang out" with the Lord in the air, is that in heaven or above the earth watching the trib. Any idea how long? Does Jesus actually do battle with Satan before the 1000 years starts? Does "the judgment" include us all? In my original question I did not mention the rapture but rather talked about when Jesus comes back to the earth.

After we get to the new heavens and earth, we can stop asking these questions. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Sat May 09, 2020 4:15 pm

1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army touches down at the Mt of Olives then engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon.
3. Jesus wins it all for His team, Satan and his evil consortium loses, and all Satan's army is killed by Jesus.
4. Beast & false prophet are consigned to the Lake of Fire. Satan is confined in the bottomless pit.

Anyone still with this? Or are all in disagreement by this time?
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby shorttribber on Sat May 09, 2020 4:24 pm

Ready1 wrote:1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army touches down at the Mt of Olives then engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon.
3. Jesus wins it all for His team, Satan and his evil consortium loses, and all Satan's army is killed by Jesus.
4. Beast & false prophet are consigned to the Lake of Fire. Satan is confined in the bottomless pit.

Anyone still with this? Or are all in disagreement by this time?

For the most part, yes, I agree
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun May 10, 2020 10:08 am

extravagantchristian wrote:We'll be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, we'll hang out up there for a little while, during the worst part of the tribulation. Then we'll come back to earth with Jesus to stay for 1,000 years. Then the judgment, Then the new heavens and new earth.


This is a interesting theory.

EC - if I am not mistaken, you appear to have a "PreTrib or PreWrath" position of our gathering unto the Lord? If you truly want a clearer understanding on this please read what Paul has to say about the timing of our gathering unto Him in 2 Thessalonians 2 and compare it to what Matthew mentions in chapter 24 of the gospel he wrote.

As for the 1,000 years - I truly challenge anyone to find out if this is literal or metaphorical language. Then ask yourself when He Appears - what have we been told? We will reign with Him Forever - keep this in mind as you ponder if a Millennial Kingdom is necessary or practical (which by the way is never mentioned in Scripture,) and consider that once He appears it will be Eternity. I will say that the absolute moment He Appears Eternity begins.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun May 10, 2020 10:25 am

shorttribber wrote:
Ready1 wrote:1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army touches down at the Mt of Olives then engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon.
3. Jesus wins it all for His team, Satan and his evil consortium loses, and all Satan's army is killed by Jesus.
4. Beast & false prophet are consigned to the Lake of Fire. Satan is confined in the bottomless pit.

Anyone still with this? Or are all in disagreement by this time?

For the most part, yes, I agree


I agree with some of it - but it needs clarification in my opinion.

We must remember that the Book of Revelation is highly symbolic and uses a great deal of metaphorical language.

I think so many underestimate what occurs at His Coming. How brilliant it will be. There is no need for Him to fight anyone, or anything. We are in Spiritual Warfare now. When He Appears - all that will be put to rest. When I read about the Beast & False Prophet - (It Beast; being an Empire - and False Prophet; being the Antichrist) they are destroyed by the brightness of His Coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8)

When He Appears - Time; Elements; Atmosphere; and everything associated with this Life will not be as we view things now. There won't be any Sun, Moon, Stars...… I think this is not being taken into consideration. The entire Universe will change. Scripture is clear about that - and this is why I believe when Jesus Appears in the Sky; it is the LAST DAY, and the End of the World.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Sun May 10, 2020 4:24 pm

:
Last edited by Ready1 on Mon May 11, 2020 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon May 11, 2020 1:15 am

:blessyou:
Last edited by Mr Baldy on Tue May 12, 2020 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Mon May 11, 2020 9:22 am

Yah, that was pretty snarky. I think I'll just delete that last post. And apologize as well... I'm sorry.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Seeker on Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:33 pm

Hi Ready1,

I have a question for all who would be willing to respond.

When Jesus returns and collects his church, according to your viewpoint, what happens next? Where does he go? What does he do? Is it earth based? or is it heaven based? What are your reasons/scriptural references?

I suspect that there will be a division between preTrib and preWrath/postTrib. But do preWrath and postTrib answer this question the same?


You forgot a group :) Post-Wrath...

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 
Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


Here we see the souls that were slain for the word of God. They cry out how long O Lord before you judge and avenge our blood. This occurs at the 5th seal which is just prior to the cosmic signs of the 6th seal. At the point of the 5th seal they are told to wait until their fellowservants and brethren are killed as they were. So basically more saints to be collected at the 5th seal. Then we see the cosmic signs which are in several other places in scripture.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

That matches what we see here in Matt 24 perfectly. Immediately after the tribulation of those days (5th seal) we see the cosmic signs (6th seal). The sign of the Son is seen in heaven and then the angels gather the elect from the one end of heaven to the other. The gathering of saints occurs sometime after the 5th seal or in a Post-Wrath manner if you consider the seals as part of God's wrath. So the dead in Christ are resurrected at the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven and return to earth with Him as part of the armies of heaven to execute judgment/wrath upon the sinners.

Jud 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 
Jud 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:26 pm

Seeker wrote:That matches what we see here in Matt 24 perfectly. Immediately after the tribulation of those days (5th seal) we see the cosmic signs (6th seal). The sign of the Son is seen in heaven and then the angels gather the elect from the one end of heaven to the other. The gathering of saints occurs sometime after the 5th seal or in a Post-Wrath manner if you consider the seals as part of God's wrath. So the dead in Christ are resurrected at the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven and return to earth with Him as part of the armies of heaven to execute judgment/wrath upon the sinners.


Any living among the group or is it only the "dead in Christ"? Any time frame that helps to pinpoint when they are resurrected?
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Seeker on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:55 pm

Hi Ready1,

Any living among the group or is it only the "dead in Christ"? Any time frame that helps to pinpoint when they are resurrected?


Great questions.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 
Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

Upon death our spirits go to be with the Lord while our bodies remain waiting for the resurrection to be reunited with the spirit. The souls under the altar asking God to avenge them are just that souls since we haven't seen a resurrection mentioned at this point. Notice in Matthew 24 two groups are mentioned....and then shall all the tribes mourn, and they shall see Jesus arriving in the clouds. Below is their reaction.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Jesus used several parables to compare to the kingdom of heaven. Below is the parable of the net.

Mat 13:47  Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 
Mat 13:48  Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 
Mat 13:49  So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 
Mat 13:50  And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Notice that only one net was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind. When the net was full it was hauled to the shore. The good were gathered into vessels but the bad were cast away. Jesus plainly says...So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels will sever the wicked from among the good. Just as the net contained two groups...good/bad....the angels gather both groups in the same net at the same time and remove the good from the bad. To be able to sever the good from the bad both groups must be together when the net is hauled in. So to figure out when that occurs we only need to know when the bad are removed since both groups are in the same net. As we know the bad are removed at Armaggedon which means that is when the good are also removed and we can verify that with scripture.

Rev 16:14  For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 
Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 
Rev 16:16  And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Jesus says He arrives as a thief...Blessed is he that watches and then we see He gathers them to Armageddon. Remember the net parable explicitly tells us that both groups are gathered in the same net at the same time.

Mat 13:28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 
Mat 13:29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 
Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Here again in the wheat/tares parable we see Jesus tells them not to gather up the tares they might uproot some wheat in the process. Let both grow together until the harvest and at the time of the harvest He will instruct the reapers to gather the tares first (Armageddon). This gives us the order of the harvest. The tares are burnt first at Armageddon and the wheat gathered into the barn/heaven.

So the only thing that makes sense to me in light of all the scriptures is that Jesus gathers the souls from heaven and heads to earth. Upon arrival He destroys the sinners at Armageddon (tares first), resurrects the bodies of the souls traveling from heaven with Him and then we are raptured to ever be with the Lord.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 


When Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels it will be in flaming fire taking vengence on them that know not God (Armageddon)...when He will be glorified in His saints...in that day. Two groups there again.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 
1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven so we have to be changed before rising up to meet the Lord in heaven. In the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound. When is the last trumpet?

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 
Rev 11:16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 
Rev 11:17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 
Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


At the 7th trumpet judgment the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of Jesus. The kingdoms were angry, thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged (resurrection). Jesus gathers them to Armageddon, returns in flaming fire taking vengence on those that are ungodly at Armageddon. The dead are resurrected and judged with rewards given to the saints. So when are the dead resurrected?

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 
Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 
Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 
Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So again we see the AC and FP defeated at Armageddon followed by the first resurrection.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 

The dead in Christ rise before were are translated and we know the dead in Christ rise at the last trumpet following Armageddon. No matter how you slice it we are raptured at the end of the last 7 years following Armageddon. So to answer your questions the ones returning as armies with Jesus that Enoch spoke of would only be the dead in Christ since we haven't been translated to our eternal bodies until after He returns and defeats evil at Armageddon. Flesh and blood can't enter the heavenly. There are many other scriptures that verify this timing as well.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Ready1 on Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:25 pm

I'm curious where 1 Cor 15 fits according to your understanding.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2709
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Seeker on Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:33 pm

Hi Ready1,

I'm curious where 1 Cor 15 fits according to your understanding.



1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven so we have to be changed before rising up to meet the Lord in heaven. In the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound. When is the last trumpet?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


From my previous post, if that was the portion of 1 Cor 15 you were referring. It states that the twinkling of an eye occurs at the sounding of the 7th trumpet which would be the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: When Jesus Christ comes back

Postby Seeker on Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:56 pm

Just to add a bit more explanation here.

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


The last trumpet sounds in 1 Cor 15:52. The last trumpet is shown in Rev 11:15. Notice that the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of Christ and He shall reign forever. The nations were angry, thy wrath is come, and the resurrection in Rev 11:18. When is the resurrection?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After Armageddon and the defeat of the AC. The seals/trumpets/vials run parallel with one another to the extent that Jesus is shown returning at the 7th of each.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Previous

Return to Prophecy Questions/Answers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron