When Jesus Christ comes back

[Ready1]

I have a question for all who would be willing to respond.

When Jesus returns and collects his church, according to your viewpoint, what happens next? Where does he go? What does he do? Is it earth based? or is it heaven based? What are your reasons/scriptural references?

I suspect that there will be a division between preTrib and preWrath/postTrib. But do preWrath and postTrib answer this question the same?

[shorttribber]

I have a question for all who would be willing to respond.

When Jesus returns and collects his church, according to your viewpoint, what happens next? Where does he go? What does he do? Is it earth based? or is it heaven based? What are your reasons/scriptural references?

I suspect that there will be a division between preTrib and preWrath/postTrib. But do preWrath and postTrib answer this question the same?

As for prewrath, it depends completely on the Kind of prewrath position a person holds.

[Ready1]

To start things off,

Jesus comes back to earth. This is the "second coming" of Jesus. He comes with his "bride" whom He has married in heaven.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

What's next? Or does something precede this?

[Jay Ross]

To start things off,

Jesus comes back to earth. This is the "second coming" of Jesus. He comes with his "bride" whom He has married in heaven.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

What's next? Or does something precede this?

Where in the above quoted passage does it say that Jesus returns to the earth? Is not this passage silent as to when that event will occur?

Shalom

[Ready1]

Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 
Rev 19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 
Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 
Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 
Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 

Maybe I just didn't quote enough for you. If this battle doesn't take place on the earth, I don't know where it does take place. My question was regarding when Jesus returns to the earth. This qualifies. What's next?

[Sonbeam]

Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 
Rev 19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 
Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 
Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 
Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 

Maybe I just didn't quote enough for you. If this battle doesn't take place on the earth, I don't know where it does take place. My question was regarding when Jesus returns to the earth. This qualifies. What's next?

I see this as the battle of Armageddon. It is a spiritual battle between Satan and the forces of evil and Christ and His saints. Christ is going to give His Bride the final victory over evil.

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

sonbeam

[shorttribber]

Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 
Rev 19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 
Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 
Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 
Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. 

Maybe I just didn't quote enough for you. If this battle doesn't take place on the earth, I don't know where it does take place. My question was regarding when Jesus returns to the earth. This qualifies. What's next?

I see this as the battle of Armageddon. It is a spiritual battle between Satan and the forces of evil and Christ and His saints. Christ is going to give His Bride the final victory over evil.

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

sonbeam

I think we are in agreement completely on this. And the two texts are I perfect agreement also

[Ready1]

Is this a real physical battle with real forces, or is this only a spiritual battle? Will there be real birds who come to gorge themselves upon the flesh of mighty men?

When Herb Peters set up this site, he made the following statement...do you believe it?

We are strictly Bible based and believe Jesus is the risen Son of God who will soon physically return to Earth to establish His Kingdom.

[Jay Ross]

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Maybe I just didn't quote enough for you. If this battle doesn't take place on the earth, I don't know where it does take place. My question was regarding when Jesus returns to the earth. This qualifies. What's next?

Ready1, I did go and read the whole chapter, so that I did understand the context of the whole chapter.

As I am saying in another thread, the capture of the beast and the False Prophet By Christ and His dispatching of them into the Lake of Fire, occurs after the Beast and the False Prophet is released from the Bottomless Pit during the last 20-30 years of the Millennium Age. With that being the case, I have no issue with your statement that this battle will take place on the face of the earth towards the very end of the Millennium Age, remembering that the Millennium Age has a duration of the order of 1,020 to 1,030 years.
Now this may well be described in Revelation 19:17-21, and yes Christ may well be on the face of the earth in dealing with the Beast and the False Prophet. However in dealing with kings of the earth and their armies, he remains sited on His horse and kills the people with the sword that proceeded from his mouth, and the birds of the air feasted on the flesh of those killed.
Now in Daniel 7:13-14 we are told that Jesus is given dominion over all of the people of the earth and that they should worship Him, but the passage is silent on where Christ will exercise His dominion from.

In the Parable of the Pound in Luke 19:14 we are told that the People no longer wanted Satan to Rule over them and so they send a delegation after him saying that they did not want Satan to rule over them. This parable is also told in Matthew 25 but to a very different audience but in its telling, there are no references to the people not wanting Satan to rule over them. The people knew of Satan who was ruling still over them at this time through his influence over people. This parable is initially set at the very beginning of the Millennium Age when Satan is thrown out of heaven down to the earth and immediately imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for a 1,000 years period, before he is released and is able to return to rule and influence the people on the earth. This 1,000 year period is described in the Parables as a man going away to a far “country,” where the Greek word translated as "country" in Luke 19 has the underlying meaning of an expansive room/chasm/pit which fits with the accounts of Satan found within the Book of Revelation. In the Matthew 25 telling the man goes away and is bound/locked up away from people for a long period of time.

In the Luke 19 account, Jesus tells us that when the Nobleman, i.e. Satan, is allowed to return he sets out to kill, all of those who did not want him to be "king" over them, and that the killing of them take place in front of him.

Likewise Luke 14:31-33 also covers the time at the beginning of the Millennium Ag, when the Nations are judged in sight of Jerusalem at the place known as Armageddon, and the Jews send a delegation off to the king doing battle there to seek His terms of Peace. This parable is speaking of the time when Israel will be redeemed, and which Paul also speaks of in Romans' 11:25-26 with all of Israel being saved.

After Jesus ascended into heaven, the disciples were told that Jesus would return in the same way.

1 Thessalonians 4 also tells us that the second coming of Christ will occur at the end of the age of the ages which is at the end of the Millennium Age.

Yes, Christ may come fleetingly to the earth between His ascension and His second coming at the end of the Millennium Age, to deal with minor issues, but to claim that Christ will be permanently on the earth during the Millennium Age to rule the earth is, in my understanding, not found in the scriptures. Our attempts to do so usually is hidden in the silence of the Scriptures and as such it is not a definitive proof that Christ will be found permanently on the face of the earth during all of the Millennium Age.

Now do you have any other passages which clearly indicate that my understanding is wrong.

Shalom

[Sonbeam]

Is this a real physical battle with real forces, or is this only a spiritual battle? Will there be real birds who come to gorge themselves upon the flesh of mighty men?

When Herb Peters set up this site, he made the following statement...do you believe it?

We are strictly Bible based and believe Jesus is the risen Son of God who will soon physically return to Earth to establish His Kingdom.

I do not believe that Christ will soon physically return to earth to establish Kingdom.

Christ said His kingdom is not of this world.


sonbeam

[Ready1]

Is this a real physical battle with real forces, or is this only a spiritual battle? Will there be real birds who come to gorge themselves upon the flesh of mighty men?

When Herb Peters set up this site, he made the following statement...do you believe it?

We are strictly Bible based and believe Jesus is the risen Son of God who will soon physically return to Earth to establish His Kingdom.

I do not believe that Christ will soon physically return to earth to establish Kingdom.

Christ said His kingdom is not of this world.


sonbeam

So, Sonbeam, is the battle of Armageddon a "spirit battle in the heavenliness" somewhere? Between who and whom? Do you see the 1000 years as real or figurative? Is it really a thousand years? Do you mean that Christ will not come soon to establish his kingdom on the earth or that he will not come at all? What does the passage you quoted mean to you?

[Mark F]

All the kingdoms in Daniel that we read about, the Colossus and the four beasts In Daniel's vision were literal kingdoms, Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, and depending on your belief, either Rome or the Ottoman empire for the final kingdom. Then in both cases the combined kingdoms are overcome and destroyed by Christ's kingdom. Are we to believe that after 4 literal-historical earthly kingdoms, suddenly when Jesus comes and destroys them it is with a spiritual kingdom? Really?

[shorttribber]

All the kingdoms in Daniel that we read about, the Colossus and the four beasts In Daniel's vision were literal kingdoms, Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, and depending on your belief, either Rome or the Ottoman empire for the final kingdom. Then in both cases the combined kingdoms are overcome and destroyed by Christ's kingdom. Are we to believe that after 4 literal-historical earthly kingdoms, suddenly when Jesus comes and destroys them it is with a spiritual kingdom? Really?

I think you're right there Mark, not a likely switch.....I think this saints and Christ posses a Literal Kingdom.

[Ready1]

Ready1, I did go and read the whole chapter, so that I did understand the context of the whole chapter.

As I am saying in another thread, the capture of the beast and the False Prophet By Christ and His dispatching of them into the Lake of Fire, occurs after the Beast and the False Prophet is released from the Bottomless Pit during the last 20-30 years of the Millennium Age. With that being the case, I have no issue with your statement that this battle will take place on the face of the earth towards the very end of the Millennium Age, remembering that the Millennium Age has a duration of the order of 1,020 to 1,030 years.
Now this may well be described in Revelation 19:17-21, and yes Christ may well be on the face of the earth in dealing with the Beast and the False Prophet. However in dealing with kings of the earth and their armies, he remains sited on His horse and kills the people with the sword that proceeded from his mouth, and the birds of the air feasted on the flesh of those killed.
Now in Daniel 7:13-14 we are told that Jesus is given dominion over all of the people of the earth and that they should worship Him, but the passage is silent on where Christ will exercise His dominion from.

In the Parable of the Pound in Luke 19:14 we are told that the People no longer wanted Satan to Rule over them and so they send a delegation after him saying that they did not want Satan to rule over them. This parable is also told in Matthew 25 but to a very different audience but in its telling, there are no references to the people not wanting Satan to rule over them. The people knew of Satan who was ruling still over them at this time through his influence over people. This parable is initially set at the very beginning of the Millennium Age when Satan is thrown out of heaven down to the earth and immediately imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit for a 1,000 years period, before he is released and is able to return to rule and influence the people on the earth. This 1,000 year period is described in the Parables as a man going away to a far “country,” where the Greek word translated as "country" in Luke 19 has the underlying meaning of an expansive room/chasm/pit which fits with the accounts of Satan found within the Book of Revelation. In the Matthew 25 telling the man goes away and is bound/locked up away from people for a long period of time.

In the Luke 19 account, Jesus tells us that when the Nobleman, i.e. Satan, is allowed to return he sets out to kill, all of those who did not want him to be "king" over them, and that the killing of them take place in front of him.

Likewise Luke 14:31-33 also covers the time at the beginning of the Millennium Ag, when the Nations are judged in sight of Jerusalem at the place known as Armageddon, and the Jews send a delegation off to the king doing battle there to seek His terms of Peace. This parable is speaking of the time when Israel will be redeemed, and which Paul also speaks of in Romans' 11:25-26 with all of Israel being saved.

After Jesus ascended into heaven, the disciples were told that Jesus would return in the same way.

1 Thessalonians 4 also tells us that the second coming of Christ will occur at the end of the age of the ages which is at the end of the Millennium Age.

Yes, Christ may come fleetingly to the earth between His ascension and His second coming at the end of the Millennium Age, to deal with minor issues, but to claim that Christ will be permanently on the earth during the Millennium Age to rule the earth is, in my understanding, not found in the scriptures. Our attempts to do so usually is hidden in the silence of the Scriptures and as such it is not a definitive proof that Christ will be found permanently on the face of the earth during all of the Millennium Age.

Now do you have any other passages which clearly indicate that my understanding is wrong.

Shalom

Jay, I will not give a "full response" to your statements, but I will give you enough so that you can hopefully see how my thought processes work.

When I read scripture, I usually start at the beginning of any given book (or chapter for that matter) and I read generally from top to bottom of a page and from the front of a book to the back of a book. (or from the beginning of a chapter to the end of the chapter).

When I read, I make certain assumptions as well. Unless otherwise noted for a particular reason, I generally understand what is in the beginning of a book to precede what is later in the book (not always, but generally). So when I read your analysis, and it does not line up with my analysis, and I see variability in interpretation (in other words you did not follow the same general rules of understanding that I did) then I am brought to the point of not understanding what your methodology entails.

So be aware that as I go through your passage what I am trying to present. I am trying to present our differences in analytical technique.

As I am saying in another thread, the capture of the beast and the False Prophet By Christ and His dispatching of them into the Lake of Fire,

This occurs in

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

...occurs after the Beast and the False Prophet is released from the Bottomless Pit during the last 20-30 years of the Millennium Age.

To my knowledge this does not occur as I find no place in scripture that the beast and the false prophet are cast into or released from the bottomless pit. Only the devil, Satan himself, is cast into the bottomless pit that I can find. This follows Rev 19:20 which tells about the fate of the beast and the false prophet.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

With that being the case, I have no issue with your statement that this battle will take place on the face of the earth towards the very end of the Millennium Age,

But you see that from my viewpoint “that is not the case”. I see my statement as true but not for the reasons that you propose.

...remembering that the Millennium Age has a duration of the order of 1,020 to 1,030 years.

Millennium means 1000 years. Not 1020-30 years Once again, I can find nowhere in scripture that 1000 years means more than one thousand years unless it is so stated.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

I'll stop here because our understanding is pretty different.

[Ready1]

Are we in agreement enough to say?

1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon

[mark s]

I think Israel is the bride, who has made herself ready, now to say, Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD!

And many will come from the east and the west . . . the guests of the banquet . . . from earthly direction, no east/west in heaven.

Sorry! Not meaning to toss in a monkey wrench! Not much, anyway!

[shorttribber]

Are we in agreement enough to say?

1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon

Yes, that's I see it too

[Ready1]

I think Israel is the bride, who has made herself ready, now to say, Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD!

And many will come from the east and the west . . . the guests of the banquet . . . from earthly direction, no east/west in heaven.

Sorry! Not meaning to toss in a monkey wrench! Not much, anyway!

We don't identify the Bride. Would you agree that she comes with Him?

[shorttribber]

I think Israel is the bride, who has made herself ready, now to say, Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD!

And many will come from the east and the west . . . the guests of the banquet . . . from earthly direction, no east/west in heaven.

Sorry! Not meaning to toss in a monkey wrench! Not much, anyway!

Two brides?

[Sonbeam]

Ready1
So, Sonbeam, is the battle of Armageddon a "spirit battle in the heavenliness" somewhere?

It is a spirit battle outside of this dimension. It will happen outside of time as we know it
since this universe will be no more after the bowls of God’s wrath will have been fulfilled..

Between who and whom?

Between Christ and the saints and Satan and his demon kings who had been appointed over countries/nations during man’s history on this earth.. Dan 10:13, 10:20

The beast and the prophet are also mentioned, but I see them also as demonic spirits who will have taken over the anti-Christ and the prophet during the tribulation.



sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Ready1
Do you see the 1000 years as real or figurative? Is it really a thousand years?

I see it as figurative.

In Rev 20:2-7 the number 1000 yrs. is used several times to give a time frame on something that will actually happen outside of time since the bowls of God’s wrath will have been fulfilled.

And therefore, the earth and the universe will have been destroyed...rolled up like a garment by then. So time as we know it on this earth will have ceased to be.

Ready1
Do you mean that Christ will not come soon to establish his kingdom on the earth or that he will not come at all?

Yes, He’s coming back, but not to establish an earthly kingdom. He will come back for His saints.

On any given day I see the second coming of Christ as being, at the very least, 7 to 10 years away since the anti-Christ hasn’t been revealed yet.
.
And yes, this means I believe that the 70th week in Daniel is yet to be fulfilled.


sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Are we in agreement enough to say?

1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon

No, on number one.

1. Jesus does not come back with His saints on white horses. The battle of Armageddon will happen after the earth and the universe will have been destroyed.

The fulfillment of this vision will happen outside of time.


2. If by kings of the earth you mean demonic spirits who were over countries/nations during
man’s history on earth, then I agree. Dan 10:13


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

[quote="Sonbeam"It will happen outside of time as we know it
since this universe will be no more after the bowls of God’s wrath will have been fulfilled..[/quote]


Why do you think the Wrath God pours out on the unrepentant earth occurs outside time? Why would God pour out His wrath at Amegedon After He pours Out His Full Wrath contained in the bowls?

[Sonbeam]

[quote="Sonbeam"It will happen outside of time as we know it
since this universe will be no more after the bowls of God’s wrath will have been fulfilled..

Why do you think the Wrath God pours out on the unrepentant earth occurs outside time? Why would God pour out His wrath at Amegedon After He pours Out His Full Wrath contained in the bowls?

Hi ST,

Take a look at what I highlighted in my comments above.

I believe you said you agreed to the battle of Armageddon being a spiritual battle right?

The bowls of God's wrath do occur within earth time, and God's wrath at that time will be a physical destruction of both men/nonbelievers and universe.

Men's/nonbelievers spiritual punishment will happen after the great white throne judgment.


The battle of Armageddon is a spiritual one against Satan and his demons who are spiritual beings. This battle will take place sometime after the physical destruction of the universe.

Since Satan and his demons are spiritual beings, God's wrath against them will take the form of a spiritual punishment in hell for all eternity.

Jude 1:13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

sonbeam

[shorttribber]

Sonbeam wrote: I see this as the battle of Armageddon. It is a spiritual battle between Satan and the forces of evil and Christ and His saints. Christ is going to give His Bride the final victory over evil.

I believe it is a Spiritual Battle so to speak...but On Earth. When i said i agreed, i did not realize what dynamics that you consider as "Spiritual".

On Earth, i consider many possibilities as to the "Spiritual Nature" of the battle itself, but not entirely out of the realm of time and space as you seem to.

What i was agreeing to is that the text does refer to the battle of Armageddon indeed, but that it Occurs DURING the timeframe that the Bowls are outpoured.

[shorttribber]

Let me show you an interesting thing i discovered once.......
from another thread.

A question I would like for ANYONE to answer regarding variant time periods for the Reward of All Servants is this....

.........I don't know if you've read the Shorttrib Prewrath thread thoroughly or not, but..............
take a look at this.............................Rev....11:19.}{.19:11....Rev....................................
.........then the temple of God was opened in heaven..}...................{..Now I saw heaven opened...................

Now let's look at some other parallels between Rev chapter 11 and Rev chapter 19

Rev 11
vs15 Loud voices in heaven
vs19 Ref to servants the prophets, the saints and those who fear His Name.
vs19 Sound of thundering
vs16-18 Twenty four elders saying "You have taken Your power and You have reigned"
vs19 Mention of the Ark of the Testimony

Notice how the Ark of the Testimony is seen when the temple was opened in heaven

Rev 19
vs1 loud voices in heaven
vs5 Ref to his servants and those who fear Him both small and great
vs6 Thundering
vs1and 6 The Lord Omnipotent reigns
vs10 Testimony of Jesus mentioned twice in this verse
vs 11...And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Notice how the testimony of Jesus is mentioned immediately before heaven is opened in the 10th verse.

Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,......................... and THE time........................... of the dead, that they should be judged,...............and that thou shouldest....... GIVE REWARD........ unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

......................................................................................................................................

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[Now, Please answer this Extrodinarily Important question]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[When did our Mighty Master and Lord say He would Reward us....ALL OF US?]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[Rev 22:12-14 AT HIS COMING!]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

Who, other than His servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear His name both small and great is He going to "REWARD" and when will that be? Is it not HERE at the LAST TRUMP, right HERE, right where the twenty four elders and our Lord said it would be?

....................................................................................................................................

The Bowls are poured out AFTER the Last Trump Sonbeam...The Bowls Are poured out IN THE SAME TIMEFRAME AS Revelation19

THAT is Why there are almost the same words used that i have shown in the side-by-side comparison in Both Texts.
Rev 11:15-19 SPEAKS CLEARLY of the WHOLE of Chapter 19!

[Ready1]

Does everyone other than Sonbeam see the battle of Armageddon as literal and not spiritual/figurative?

[shorttribber]

Does everyone other than Sonbeam see the battle of Armageddon as literal and not spiritual/figurative?

My opinion is a Literal battle.

But what chance do the Losers have really against The Almighty and some aparent contribution of His Saints and Angels?

God won't have any need to ride around in a tank though, not That Kind of Literalness, if you understand what I mean.

[shorttribber]

And, Sonbeam, try also to remember the comparison of the End of Rev chap. 11 and the Whole of Rev 19, and keep these three following verses in mind.

Consider the Time After the wearing out of the saints as Occurring in the space of about 30 days total.
In other words, the Whole of Revelation 19 in the space of about 30 days.....

Dan 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

[Sonbeam]

Ok ST so we disagree.

When do you see the battle taking place?

1. While the "the bowls" of God's wrath are being poured on the world?

2. Right after God's wrath on the world is completed?

3. Is the battle between a physical element (earthly kings, anti-Christ, prophet) and Satan and his demons on one side, against glorified saints and Christ on the other side?

Just trying to understand your position.'


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

When do you see the battle taking place?

1. While the "the bowls" of God's wrath are being poured on the world?

Yes....Just as could be expected in the following verses....

Dan 7;26
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Dan 9:27
......... he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

3. Is the battle between a physical element (earthly kings, anti-Christ, prophet) and Satan and his demons on one side, against glorified saints and Christ on the other side?

Yes.....Although it is not Entirely Physical in Nature, Primarily it will be since it occurs On Earth, but Spiritually it will be accomplished Also.

[Ready1]

The battle between Jesus and His forces and Satan and his forces is a real battle.

Yes, there is a spiritual component to it. That component is the fact that Satan is 100% evil and represents everything which is opposed to God. Jesus, on the other hand, is God himself and represents all that is 100% Righteous and Good. So the battle is a Spiritual battle of Good vs. Evil. Thankfully we know the ending.

It is, on the other hand, a physical battle as well. The forces of Good actually come and go to war with the forces of evil. Satan has been cast down to the earth. (Rev 12:7-9) His roaming of the heavenlies is no longer possible because God has limited him to the earth only. He controls the two men on the earth who are fully committed to him; the beast and the false prophet. All of their forces are anti-God. Because he is so angry at having been cast out of heaven, Satan attempts to pursue and destroy Israel. (Rev 12:13) Satan specifically goes to war with the remnant of Israel who have come to trust in Jesus.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan, through his proxies, has success as well, because

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

We are told in Matthew that it will be so bad that if Jesus did not intervene, humanity would destroy itself. So when Jesus comes with His bride and the armies of heaven, he comes to save humanity in general and to save the remnant of the Jewish nation who have come to believe in Him specifically. And he sends His angels out to collect them from wherever they have been scattered.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19 describes the battle and the outcome. It appears that Jesus himself is the one who personally destroys all of the followers of Satan with the “sword of His mouth”. Satan is captured, bound and secured in the bottomless pit for 1000 years; held until his final tempting of humanity after the 1000 years are over. Satan’s minions, the beast and the false prophet, are delivered to the lake of fire for their punishment.

Jesus is victorious with thrones and reigning conferred upon those who have been faithful to Him.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

There is a prophetic scripture in Isaiah which views this time when Satan is defeated and indicates that humanity will be shocked at the captured and defeated evil one.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Yes, I know very well that some of you will be highly incensed at the way that I have put these scriptures together, but it is what I believe, and furthermore I think it will stand the test of scrutiny.

[shorttribber]

I'm not the least bit incensed, and agree with most of that last post Ready. Although I do not agree with every single detail. What you have said though does have evidential merit.

As I have said on many occasions though, evidence has variant levels in strength, some weak and some strong.

[Sonbeam]

When do you see the battle taking place?

1. While the "the bowls" of God's wrath are being poured on the world?

Yes....Just as could be expected in the following verses....

Dan 7;26
But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Dan 9:27
......... he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

ST

I assume here you are talking about the anti-Christ, right?
The horn that "was waging war against the holy people and defeating them," Dan 7:21

Who suffers death (physical destruction) along with all unbelieving mankind as the bowls of God's wrath (an unimaginable cosmic destruction of the earth and universe is taking place) are going on. Right?

Here's where I have a problem with the idea that while the cosmic destruction of the universe is going on, the Lord and His saints are waging war with human beings who are being destroyed.

Not only that, but Satan and his minions no doubt, are bound during this period because their evil mission on earth is done. There is nothing else for them to do. During and after the destruction of the earth, Satan is out of a job.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Anyway, I just had a thought pop into my head.

Here we are debating the time when God's wrath is poured on this world, and we won't be here. Thank God!!

When our Lord comes back, those who died in Christ will be resurrected first (I'll probably be one of those )
and then those in Christ who are alive and remain will be taken up next.

Then the end of this world and universe will take place.

This is not the good news is it?


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

Why isn't it good news? Seems very good to me.

Why not see a New Heaven and New Earth wherein dwells righteousness, and a City whose builder and maker is God, as good?

I see it as Good, and what God has Promised.

[Sonbeam]

Why isn't it good news? Seems very good to me.

Well, because end time knowledge, as varied and debatable as it is, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ for unbelievers, "those that are perishing."

For us that are in Christ, it is good to know that we'll be taken out before God's wrath is poured on the world.
It helps us to sleep well at night.


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

Why isn't it good news? Seems very good to me.

Well, because end time knowledge, as varied and debatable as it is, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ for unbelievers, "those that are perishing."

For us that are in Christ, it is good to know that we'll be taken out before God's wrath is poured on the world.
It helps us to sleep well at night.


sonbeam

You don't understand what God will do During the 3.5, but I believe I Do Know, and it Is Good Gospel News.

Will explain more about it if I Ever make it to my Tabernacles Thread

[Jay Ross]

Jay, I will not give a "full response" to your statements, but I will give you enough so that you can hopefully see how my thought processes work.

When I read scripture, I usually start at the beginning of any given book (or chapter for that matter) and I read generally from top to bottom of a page and from the front of a book to the back of a book. (or from the beginning of a chapter to the end of the chapter).

When I read, I make certain assumptions as well. Unless otherwise noted, for a particular reason, I generally understand what is in the beginning of a book to precede what is later in the book (not always, but generally). So when I read your analysis, and it does not line up with my analysis, and I see variability in interpretation (in other words you did not follow the same general rules of understanding that I did) then I am brought to the point of not understanding what your methodology entails.

So be aware that as I go through your passage what I am trying to present. I am trying to present our differences in analytical technique.

No, that is not what you are doing. What you are doing is limiting how you can read the bible and interpret what you want to believe is written in the scriptures. You have a very biased interpretation as to what will occur before the tribulation of the people of the earth will occur. As such you have placed a straitjacket on your understanding. Let us consider the following statement that you made.

As I am saying in another thread, the capture of the beast and the False Prophet By Christ and His dispatching of them into the Lake of Fire,

This occurs in

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

...occurs after the Beast and the False Prophet is released from the Bottomless Pit during the last 20-30 years of the Millennium Age.

To my knowledge this does not occur as I find no place in scripture that the beast and the false prophet are cast into or released from the bottomless pit. Only the devil, Satan himself, is cast into the bottomless pit that I can find. This follows Rev 19:20 which tells about the fate of the beast and the false prophet.

How about this verse for the False Prophet, i.e. the little horn of the OT.

Revelation 13:11: - 11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

And this verse for the Beast: -

Revelation 17:7-8: - 7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

From the Old Testament we also have this passage: -

Isaiah 24:21-23: -

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison.
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed.
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.

This passage from Isaiah tells us that God punishes both the wicked fallen heavenly hosts and the kingdoms/empires/people groups who chose to inhabit their respective dominions to do their bidding and to manifest their powers.

Now we have to understand, who are the kings of the earth that are punished and how do they fit in?

Daniel is told in Daniel 8 that the Little Horn is given an army and, from history, the army he is given is lead by kings, particularly in the period from around 250 BC up to and including this present time. Where the “kings” went, their armies accompanied them.

We also have to understand who the judged heavenly hosts are? If they are heavenly hosts/entities, then they must be angels, and if they are being judged by God and kicked out of heaven down to the earth, then they must be wicked fallen angels and one of those angels we know is Satan. We also know from Scripture, that Satan had other angels who had also rebelled against God working for him.

Then the beasts must be angels, and the wicked fallen heavenly hosts must also be spirits who can exercise influence over people.

Now we are told in Daniel 7:2 that the four winds from heaven are stirring up the people on the earth, metaphorically described as the sea such that the beasts are manifested as “human armies doing their bidding,” over an extended period of the earth’s history right up to and including the present time, where we can identify the “kings” and their armies, so doing as if they are the actual beasts.

This is how Daniel described it: -

Daniel 7:2-3: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other.

As different parts of the Great Sea began to manifest the characteristics of the respective four beasts by choosing to live within their respective dominions, so the four winds of heaven, the true beasts in this world, could display their powers over the people within their respective dominions.

When the Beasts are judged, their respective dominions are taken from them and they will no longer be able to influence people for a period of time, as we can read, later in Daniel 7: -

Daniel 7:11-12: - 11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the {fourth} beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Now, the Last Age, which is wrongly labelled as the “Millennium Age” has two parts: - a season and a little while, and that each part must run its full course consecutively for the Last Age to be completed. Christ spoke of a Summer Season in Matthew 24:32 and from an agricultural perspective, the harvest is brought into the barns during the Summer Season. It is a time when all the recorded good fruit is collected. We also know that the wickedness in heaven and on the earth is locked up in a pit for many days. In Revelation 20:1-3 we are told that the duration of the pit being locked is 1,000 years, which in Latin is the word “Millennium.”

Now the bottomless Pit will be unlocked, after the passing of 1,000 years during the Millennium Age, and we will then enter into the “little while” period, which I am suggesting is going to be around 20-30 years in duration

The last age began being called the Millennium Age shortly after Christ’s ascension and the length of the last age of 1,000 years was not accepted by all. See: -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

If an age or a day of the Lord is in fact 1,000 years, then why has 2024 years past from the time of Christ’s birth, assuming that this is the marker for the beginning of the fifth age, and the end of this present sixth age has not occurred? (The above number of 2024 years is based on the understanding that Christ was born in the year 4 BC.)

As such, it is my understanding that an age is slightly longer than 1,000 years and probably has a duration of 1,020-1,030 years.

Now I agree with you that the only scriptural passage that indicates how long those judged in Isaiah 24:21-22 will be locked up for is found in this passage from Revelation 20:1-3: -

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Continuing on: -

Now I do agree with you, that the Latin word “Millennium,” means in the Latin, the number 1,000.

Now the Greek word, chilioi, which means 1,000 is found in 2 Peter 3:8 and in the Book of Revelation as well as in complex combinations of Greek words to cover, numbers like 5,000, etc..

But you see that from my viewpoint “that is not the case”. I see my statement as true but not for the reasons that you propose.

...remembering that the Millennium Age has a duration of the order of 1,020 to 1,030 years.

Millennium means 1000 years. Not 1020-30 years. Once again, I can find nowhere in scripture that 1000 years means more than one thousand years unless it is so stated.

[/quote]

Now I agree with you that the word “Millennium,” a number, in the Latin means 1,000.

However, when it is used in conjunction with the word “Age” as a label for a particular period of time, then the meaning of the word “Millennium” changes to the “Last” Age/Millennium Age,” and the actual duration of the Last Age is not defined by the label of the “Millennium Age.”

Now my wife thinks that I should stop because you will probably not be able to grasp what I am posting and that it will be better to let you make the same discoveries about the Biblical prophecies and can come to the same conclusions as to how the End times will play out.

Shalom

Sorry for the interruption to the usual discussion.

[Ready1]

Who am I to argue with you, Jay. I will not. Obviously my view is not your view.

[Ready1]

1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon

Except for those who don't believe the above, what comes next?

[Mark F]

Does everyone other than Sonbeam see the battle of Armageddon as literal and not spiritual/figurative?

Literal

[Jay Ross]

Who am I to argue with you, Jay. I will not. Obviously my view is not your view.

So be it.

[Jay Ross]

1. Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride on white horses
2. Jesus and his army engages the enemy; the beast, the false prophet, and the armies of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon

Except for those who don't believe the above, what comes next?

How can I argue against you Ready1 when what you are asking is not literal from a biblical sense.

[Ready1]

How can I argue against you Ready1 when what you are asking is not literal from a biblical sense.

Ah, Jay, I'm sure you'll find a way...

[Ready1]

When Jesus comes back, is this next?

Zec 14:2  For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 
Zec 14:3  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 
Zec 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 

[Sonbeam]

Why isn't it good news? Seems very good to me.

Well, because end time knowledge, as varied and debatable as it is, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ for unbelievers, "those that are perishing."

For us that are in Christ, it is good to know that we'll be taken out before God's wrath is poured on the world.
It helps us to sleep well at night.


sonbeam

You don't understand what God will do During the 3.5, but I believe I Do Know, and it Is Good Gospel News.

Will explain more about it if I Ever make it to my Tabernacles Thread

I see you missed my point ST. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough.

While it is "fun" to debate end-time scenarios, and most of the time I try to stay away from this, to engage in discussing them is not what our mission is. Especially because we go around and around in circles like we are doing in this thread.

We are to preach the Gospel now. TODAY is the day of salvation for those who haven't come to Christ. None of us have tomorrow.

A more fruitful endeavor would be to engage in a discussion of the true gospel of Jesus Christ, starting with what He truly accomplished on Cross.

Will start a thread on that soon. Maybe.

I see Jay just started a thread that relates to the Gospel.



sonbeam

[extravagantchristian]

I think we're going to meet him in the air first of all.

(Which means there will be a rapture to save us from whatever's happening on earth, we just don't know the day or hour)

Then we'll return to earth with him. And we'll always be with him from that point on.

2 important verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(Obviously if we will always be with him, we will also return to earth with him.)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

(The beast and false prophet are going to say that we missed the rapture and that messiah has already come.)

[shorttribber]

I think we're going to meet him in the air first of all.

(Which means there will be a rapture to save us from whatever's happening on earth, we just don't know the day or hour)

Then we'll return to earth with him. And we'll always be with him from that point on.

2 important verses:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(Obviously if we will always be with him, we will also return to earth with him.)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.

(The beast and false prophet are going to say that we missed the rapture and that messiah has already come.)

Very good points, and I agree, especially on that last point

[Ready1]

I guess that I would ask EC & ST same question here that I asked in another thread.

How can Jesus say to me "Watch; for you do not know what hour the Lord comes", when he has told us precisely when He is coming? How can He say that no one knows when it will be, when He told us exactly when it will be? How can it be that "in an hour you think not, the Son of Man comes" when He has told every believer when He is coming?

Then there is another burning question. WHY SHOULD I WATCH when I know precisely when He is coming? All I have to do is watch for the signs but I really don't have to watch for Him. Why?

In other words, I have to make it all the way through the seven seals and the seven trumpets where billions of people die and a majority of all the people of the earth are killed before I really need to look for the return of Jesus. Then, according to your thinking, because I am one of the few left, I am to take comfort in the fact that I will be caught up with Him in the air. Not much comfort, because it doesn't apply to most believers. And there is certainly no guarantee that any of us will even have a remote chance to make it to that point.

Just curious.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[shorttribber]

Those are great questions Ready, and I will answer them all later tonight ok?