Daniel 9:24-27

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:20 pm

Ready1 wrote:Messiah is cut off. Then there is a coming prince. (The coming prince is the antecedent) The coming prince has people. Those people shall destroy a city and a sanctuary mentioned earlier. And he (pronoun which refers back to the antecedent (prince) from which it takes its meaning) will confirm some kind of covenant for one week. In the middle of the week, he (pronoun which refers back to the antecedent (prince) from which it takes its meaning) will cause sacrifice and oblation to end. And he (pronoun which refers back to the antecedent (prince) from which it takes its meaning) will make it desolate. In three cases, the pronoun "he" refers back to the antecedent "prince that shall come".

So keithareilly, that is how I get there. The reason why I see things the way I do is that I try to follow rules of grammar which should help lead us all to a proper and common understanding of the passage in question.

And they do if we respect and follow them.


That was your answer to Keith as to the Why you believe as you do regarding this text. (Daniel 9:24-27)

Just wanted to remind you Ready that the "Rules of Grammar" do not Always appear in Hebrew Writing, especially in the Prophetic books.

I have brought this portion of a thread over to prove that....do you remember it?



Ready1 wrote: I am curious how many who are perusing this thread see the "he" of Dan 9:27 as referring back to the "prince that shall come"? Take out the verse designators and there is simply a continuation of thought. To say otherwise makes no sense. After Messiah is cut off, someone must confirm a covenant...and it's the fellow that Daniel has just been talking about.

Ready 1,

How is it that the reading makes no sense if it's not read in a Linear and Modern Western fashion?

Can it make sense if it is read in an Hebraic fashion? It makes perfect sense if you will allow that Hebraic Form it was Actually written in to help your perception.

Let me provide you with an example of Hebraic Repetitious Form. I will not even point to any Chiastic Conclusion, just the Repetitious Nature Of That Form.

Daniel 8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host
, and by him
the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his
sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Now, beside the clear and Evident repetition, we also have in these words a Wonderful example of how the Common Grammatical Rule of the antecedent interpretation (nearest matching antecedent), is Not Followed ALWAYS in Hebraic Form.

I don't want to spend a great deal of time on this matter, just want you to See how a Chiastic Repetitious Hebraic Form in Daniel 9 Does "make sense", better sense actually than reading it without an Hebraic Form in mind.

Now Ready 1....this example is in Chapter 8, the next chapter is of course chapter 9, and the Same Repetitious Form is Clearly Evident.


Just wanted to remind you of this, Repetition is a good Reminder :wink:


Reminding God of the Covenant and Mercy He made with Abraham is exactly what Daniel did at the beginning of the chapter, Remember? And, you know what Mkes Sense to Me? Daniel Ends the chapter on the Same Subject, the Abrahamic Covenant, to "BRING IN" the "MANY" By Christ BRINGING IN His Everlasting Righteousness TO "Many".

THAT is the Meaning of "To BRING IN Everlasting Righteousness" by the way.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:56 pm

Romans 5

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice the "Were"?

Notice how Reconciliation was DONE at the Cross? Notice how it does not matter what WE DID, or WHAT the Jews themselves will Do in the Future? IT WAS DONE AT THE CROSS, He Already "Made" "Reconciliation" for Sin.

The Jews themselves are not Responsible for Any, and i mean Any reconciliation "Made" in the future. They Can receive it, Yes, but they or anyone else on earth in No Way can "MAKE" Reconciliation, Period.



19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



And.....speaking of "Many"




Mark 14
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

math 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many
for the remission of sins.

math 20
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Please Compare the Above verse With what Paul wrote....
Romans 15
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.[/size]

And also Isaiah....
14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle manynations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

And as God Promised Abraham ....
Gen 17
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many
nations
.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father ofmany
nations have I made thee.


Behold! The New Covenant AND MERCY Confirmed with Many.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:00 pm

shorttribber wrote:Romans 5

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice the "Were"?

Notice how Reconciliation was DONE at the Cross? Notice how it does not matter what WE DID, or WHAT the Jews themselves will Do in the Future? IT WAS DONE AT THE CROSS, He Already "Made" "Reconciliation" for Sin.

The Jews themselves are not Responsible for Any, and i mean Any reconciliation "Made" in the future. They Can receive it, Yes, but they or anyone else on earth in No Way can "MAKE" Reconciliation, Period.



19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



And.....speaking of "Many"




Mark 14
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

math 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many
for the remission of sins.

math 20
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Please Compare the Above verse With what Paul wrote....
Romans 15
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.[/size]

And also Isaiah....
14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle manynations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

And as God Promised Abraham ....
Gen 17
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many
nations
.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father ofmany
nations have I made thee.


Behold! The New Covenant AND MERCY Confirmed with Many.



:a3: f Shorttribber!

God bless you!
Last edited by WOODHENOT3 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:17 pm

Anyone who chooses to interpret by the exception rather than the rule is certainly free to do so. Go ahead, men.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:46 am

Ready1 wrote:Anyone who chooses to interpret by the exception rather than the rule is certainly free to do so. Go ahead, men.

Thank you, then I will continue to allow Hebraic Forms to influence my Understanding, even when I read the New Testament, since they were used so often, Especially by Christ Himself.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Exit40 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:57 am

Ready1 wrote:Anyone who chooses to interpret by the exception rather than the rule is certainly free to do so. Go ahead, men.


Hi Ready1. It seems to me that Daniels prayer throughout Chapter 9 is all about 'The Covenant', and our Father and His Christ doing what He does regarding His keeping His 'Covenant' as shown throughout the Prophecy. Then suddenly in the last verse a different covenant is made with a different prince ? That seems an exception considering the context of the Chapter. Not trying to be argumentative, knowing I was in the past just as adamant about this, and I wonder why I could not see this as I see it now. Really interesting the way my mind works, and I imagine it's the same for many of us, if not all. The issue with this Prophecy is, it is so complex yet so simple it escapes us for the complexity we place there through other Scripture. Looking back at my previous belief, which is the same as yours btw, I find my Rapture position was challenged by this, and in order to hold onto that position, I had to deny what was presented there. All about the last week being future, the conflict was hard to overcome. Even after my Revelation. So now I hold no Rapture position, as I feel I will leave this Earth before end times are upon us. I am good to go with that, as eternal life is already mine through Christ, so in my remaining days I get to provoke to jealousy those who wonder about my general happy nature. And I look at it this way, something I used to tell my kids growing up, If it was easy anyone could do it. What gets me is, it really is easy, the yoke is light and easy to bear.

As I said, I am not wanting to argue about this. I would ask though, is it possible for you to see this in a different light ?

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:55 pm

shorttribber wrote:Romans 5

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Notice the "Were"?

Notice how Reconciliation was DONE at the Cross?


Absolutely ST. Forgiveness is a given for all the descendants of Adam. They have it right now. It is not earned by "repenting", walking down a church isle, etc. etc.

As unbelievable as it may seem, Christ already paid the penalty for the sins of the anti-Christ and all the nonbelievers
who will be alive at the end of the age. (No, they won't be saved unless they turn to and believe in the Son.)



Notice how it does not matter what WE DID, or WHAT the Jews themselves will Do in the Future? IT WAS DONE AT THE CROSS, He Already "Made" "Reconciliation" for Sin.


But could you be more specific and explain what you mean by saying it does not matter what the Jews will do in the future.

Are you saying that Jews are now fully reconciled to God for all eternity because of the Cross? Did you mean to say they do not have to believe in the Son of God?


The Jews themselves are not Responsible for Any, and i mean Any reconciliation "Made" in the future. They Can receive it, Yes, but they or anyone else on earth in No Way can "MAKE" Reconciliation, Period.


Could you explain what you mean by the above a;so?

Sorry for all the questions ST. But this is about the Gospel.

Bless you!


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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:33 pm

Exot40 wrote:Hi Ready1. It seems to me that Daniels prayer throughout Chapter 9 is all about 'The Covenant', and our Father and His Christ doing what He does regarding His keeping His 'Covenant' as shown throughout the Prophecy.


Instead of telling me what you think it means, just go through it verse by verse (9:1-19)and show how each verse supports your position. And answer the question: Which covenant?
Just observing.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby keithareilly on Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:41 pm

Shorttrib Wrote,

The Jews themselves are not Responsible for Any, and i mean Any reconciliation "Made" in the future. They Can receive it, Yes, but they or anyone else on earth in No Way can "MAKE" Reconciliation, Period.


Absolutely true.

Only Christ's sacrifice, the given death of a sinless person, can pay the price for our sins thus resulting in reconciliation. The wages of sin is death. A sinner must die for his sins, unless someone else, who has not earned death, dies, resulting in an unearned death being applied to one who has earned it. When The Jews crucified Christ, a Jew, The Jews completed the statement "Salvation is from the Jews". For no other people can claim killing Christ, and no other people can rightly claim to have Christ come from their lineage. The Jews killed a sinless Jew and in so doing brought reconciliation to mankind. No sinless man will come again for the Jews to kill and make another reconciliation. Therefore, no reconciliation can be made again. They can only accept what reconciliation has already been made available.
Last edited by keithareilly on Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:06 pm

Sonbeam wrote: ST WROTE: Notice how it does not matter what WE DID, or WHAT the Jews themselves will Do in the Future? IT WAS DONE AT THE CROSS, He Already "Made" "Reconciliation" for Sin.


Sonbeam wrote: But could you be more specific and explain what you mean by saying it does not matter what the Jews will do in the future.

Are you saying that Jews are now fully reconciled to God for all eternity because of the Cross? Did you mean to say they do not have to believe in the Son of God?

The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!

It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!

It's just Absurd.

They are no more Reconciled Now than any person, Jew or Gentile until they Recieve the Reconciliation that Christ BY Himself "MADE".
They must absolutely Believe in the Son of God, just as all who Receive the "Everlasting Righteousness" that Christ Himself Did "Bring In".
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:31 pm

shorttribber wrote:The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!


That is absolutely untrue. I do not believe that here is one person on this board who see's a 7 year, future 70th week who would even remotely come close to believing something as foolish as that. That is heresy. Try again, shorttribber. In fact, maybe you need to go back and reread some of those posts instead of attributing something so outlandish as what you have described.

Anybody out there who believes what shorttribber says we believe? (But it does show how little you know what you are talking about and how little you understand the future 70th week position.)
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:41 am

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!


That is absolutely untrue. I do not believe that here is one person on this board who see's a 7 year, future 70th week who would even remotely come close to believing something as foolish as that. That is heresy. Try again, shorttribber. In fact, maybe you need to go back and reread some of those posts instead of attributing something so outlandish as what you have described.

Anybody out there who believes what shorttribber says we believe? (But it does show how little you know what you are talking about and how little you understand the future 70th week position.)


Read1, I would agree with you as verse 26b speaks of desolations in Jerusalem until the end of the wars, which I believe is a reference to the war presently going on in the heavenly realms between Satan and his loyal fallen heavenly hosts and God and His loyal heavenly hosts.

I also believe that there are five independent prophecies with verse 24 having a 70 weeks of years duration, verse 25 having a 69 weeks of years duration and which shares some of its duration with with verse 24 but they both have independent starting and finishing points which do not co-inside with the other prophecy.

I also believe that verse 26a occurs after the completion of the verse 25 prophecy but the verse is silent as to how many years pass after the conclusion of the prophecy contained in verse 25. It is my understanding that the construction of the Temple was primarily completed before the start of Christs ministry, although Josephus does provide information of further work being undertaken after the death of Christ.

It is also my understanding that verse 26b has a starting point which begins when the little Horn of Chapter 8 of the Book of Daniel is given an army to begin the trampling of God's sanctuary and earthly hosts for a period of 2,300 years. Verse 26b gives a little more information about what will happen to Jerusalem in that Jerusalem and the temple ill be destroyed and will remain desolate until the end of the war.

The end of the war in heaven is described in Revelation 12:7 as well as in Isaiah 24:21-22 where the heavenly hosts are judged in heaven and those found wanting we are told are cast out of heaven down to the earth to be imprisoned in a pit to await the time of their punishment. Satan, the Little Horn and the four winds of heaven, i.e. angels, who manifested themselves in the sea of humanity are thrown out of heaven and immediately locked up. Rev 20:1-3 informs us that the pit was locked for a period of 1,000 years before it is unlocked just before they are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

It is during the time between when the Bottomless pit is unlocked and their demise in the Lake of fire, that Daniel 9:27 is fulfilled and the Prince, the Little Horn, also called the False Prophet in the Book of Revelations enters into a covenant with many on the face of the earth for one week of years before the decreed punishment is poured out on the ones who make desolated.

Keith was tight when he wrote this: -

keithareilly wrote:<snip>
Only Christ's sacrifice, the given death of a sinless person, can pay the price for our sins thus resulting in reconciliation. The wages of sin is death. A sinner must die for his sins, unless someone else, who has not earned death, dies, resulting in an unearned death being applied to one who has earned it. When The Jews crucified Christ, a Jew, The Jews completed the statement "Salvation is from the Jews". For no other people can claim killing Christ, and no other people can rightly claim to have Christ come from their lineage. The Jews killed a sinless Jew and in so doing brought reconciliation to mankind. <snip>


It is when Israel repents of their continual idolatrous worship over the last four ages of their existence, from the Birth of Isaac until the end of this present Age, that they will be redeemed and that God will make like new again the same covenant that He had made with Israel at Mt Sinai, the Covenant of a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nation. This event is still in our near future and Paul in the Greek Texts tells us in Romans 11:25-26, that after the completion of the 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of the Temple and of God's Hosts on the earth, the Israelites, that "all" of Israel will be saved who respond to Him and undertake to keep His statutes.

Daniel 9:27 is a covenant that will be solemnly sworn with many people by the Little Horn after he is released from the Bottomless pit, but it will be broken by Satan in his attempt to supplant God and establish himself as the "god" of the humanity of the earth.

Because people can add together the 7 weeks with the 62 weeks and the one week of years and come to the same number of weeks as is found in verse 24, they believe that four verses are speaking of the same time period, but the reality is that they are five separate prophecies that are found in the four verse from verse 24 to verse 27.

Yes there are many theories held to explain how the end times will unfold, but unless we hold to God's understanding of His prophecies, then we can only be wetting ourselves as we face the coming winds of the unfolding end time prophecies.

Shalom

Errors and omissions accepted in the above post.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mark F on Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:05 am

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!


That is absolutely untrue. I do not believe that here is one person on this board who see's a 7 year, future 70th week who would even remotely come close to believing something as foolish as that. That is heresy. Try again, shorttribber. In fact, maybe you need to go back and reread some of those posts instead of attributing something so outlandish as what you have described.

Anybody out there who believes what shorttribber says we believe? (But it does show how little you know what you are talking about and how little you understand the future 70th week position.)

I had the same reaction, and seeing as our positions a very similar I thought that does not describe anything you or I have said.
Mark

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mark F on Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:44 am

This sounds like what you are describing ST.

keithareilly wrote:Shorttrib Wrote,

The Jews themselves are not Responsible for Any, and i mean Any reconciliation "Made" in the future. They Can receive it, Yes, but they or anyone else on earth in No Way can "MAKE" Reconciliation, Period.


Absolutely true.

Only Christ's sacrifice, the given death of a sinless person, can pay the price for our sins thus resulting in reconciliation. The wages of sin is death. A sinner must die for his sins, unless someone else, who has not earned death, dies, resulting in an unearned death being applied to one who has earned it. When The Jews crucified Christ, a Jew, The Jews completed the statement "Salvation is from the Jews". For no other people can claim killing Christ, and no other people can rightly claim to have Christ come from their lineage. The Jews killed a sinless Jew and in so doing brought reconciliation to mankind. No sinless man will come again for the Jews to kill and make another reconciliation. Therefore, no reconciliation can be made again. They can only accept what reconciliation has already been made available.


This is what has and will be accomplished through the 70 weeks, It was God who put Jesus on that cross.
2Co 5:18  Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 
19  that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
 


God put Christ on display before all, before principalities and powers, before Jews and Greeks, before angels and demons. He did it that all could see His righteous work and so that He could not be accused of not being JUST.
Rom 3:25  "whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 
26  to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 
27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 
28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 
29  Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 
30  since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith"
.


God uses men to accomplish His work and the prophecy to Daniel is God telling Daniel that He will accomplish His plan through man.

Just as God put Christ before all to demonstrate that His work was righteous, Jesus will return to finish the demonstration by casting sin from His kingdom, when I look around, I find it easy to see that He has not accomplished that. Daniel 9 is God telling us that He will use the people of Israel to accomplish things on earth.....the Church is a different group of people and if you cannot differentiate between the two you won't see this.

If there has been a literal fulfillment of the Seventy weeks, why do Christians sin? It must be that there is more that God is doing here because Daniel 9 says these things will be no more. This is not some spiritual fulfillment, Daniel 9 has a literal fulfillment on earth. That has yet to occur.
Mark

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:52 am

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!


That is absolutely untrue. I do not believe that here is one person on this board who see's a 7 year, future 70th week who would even remotely come close to believing something as foolish as that. That is heresy. Try again, shorttribber. In fact, maybe you need to go back and reread some of those posts instead of attributing something so outlandish as what you have described.

Anybody out there who believes what shorttribber says we believe? (But it does show how little you know what you are talking about and how little you understand the future 70th week position.)


You apparently misunderstand What I said you believe. You did not Finish Quoting WHAT I Actually said You Believe.
The following is the Missing part.

shorttribber wrote:It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe THAT! THAT the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, WITHOUT the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!


I hope this Helps you AND Mark to better understand What I actually said You Believe.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Exit40 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:33 am

Ready1 wrote:
Exot40 wrote:Hi Ready1. It seems to me that Daniels prayer throughout Chapter 9 is all about 'The Covenant', and our Father and His Christ doing what He does regarding His keeping His 'Covenant' as shown throughout the Prophecy.


Instead of telling me what you think it means, just go through it verse by verse (9:1-19)and show how each verse supports your position. And answer the question: Which covenant?


Hi Ready1. I did not realize you had asked this question of me. Forgive my failing memory if you have. So, you are well read enough to know, this Covenant spoken of by Daniel is the Mosaic Covenant. Daniel himself prays about it saying ...

Dan 9:13¶ “As it is written in the Law of Moses ...

Each and every instance Daniel says 'Covenant' he is referring to this. Thus answering your question to me. So this question remains, why would the Prophecy given Daniel suddenly change from the Mosaic Covenant to some kind of earthly covenant with whomever ? I'm not trying to throw this in your face, to be argumentative. I really think the answer to that question reveals the need for the Messiah, the Prince who is to come, who fulfills all of 9:24 at His crucifixion and Resurrection. As the sacrifices required by Mosaic Law are a shadow of good things to come, shadow of these being the hidden Prophecy here, are cut off at Christs finished work on the Cross, the following comes into effect... (my bold) ...

Heb 10:1-18 ¶ For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.

But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

¶ Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),

then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.”[fn] He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified.

¶ And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

¶ But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,

¶ “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”

then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Also written ...

Psa 40:6-8 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.

I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”


Surely our Lord Jesus has done this. And because of that, it becomes possible for His Laws to be written on our hearts.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:46 am

shorttribber wrote:
Sonbeam wrote: ST WROTE: Notice how it does not matter what WE DID, or WHAT the Jews themselves will Do in the Future? IT WAS DONE AT THE CROSS, He Already "Made" "Reconciliation" for Sin.


Sonbeam wrote: But could you be more specific and explain what you mean by saying it does not matter what the Jews will do in the future.

Are you saying that Jews are now fully reconciled to God for all eternity because of the Cross? Did you mean to say they do not have to believe in the Son of God?

The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!

It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!

It's just Absurd.

They are no more Reconciled Now than any person, Jew or Gentile until they Recieve the Reconciliation that Christ BY Himself "MADE".
They must absolutely Believe in the Son of God, just as all who Receive the "Everlasting Righteousness" that Christ Himself Did "Bring In".


If I quote the whole thing, it is just as foolish, maybe more so because it points another untrue and unfounded accusation at us. As well as the fact that it ignores what we have actually said.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:32 am

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
Sonbeam wrote: ST WROTE: Notice how it does not matter what WE DID, or WHAT the Jews themselves will Do in the Future? IT WAS DONE AT THE CROSS, He Already "Made" "Reconciliation" for Sin.


Sonbeam wrote: But could you be more specific and explain what you mean by saying it does not matter what the Jews will do in the future.

Are you saying that Jews are now fully reconciled to God for all eternity because of the Cross? Did you mean to say they do not have to believe in the Son of God?

The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!

It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!

It's just Absurd.

They are no more Reconciled Now than any person, Jew or Gentile until they Recieve the Reconciliation that Christ BY Himself "MADE".
They must absolutely Believe in the Son of God, just as all who Receive the "Everlasting Righteousness" that Christ Himself Did "Bring In".


If I quote the whole thing, it is just as foolish, maybe more so because it points another untrue and unfounded accusation at us. As well as the fact that it ignores what we have actually said.

What is it that you find foolish or untrue?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:48 am

Dear Saints,

I wish all of you would be more succinct in expressing your beliefs regarding this topic. I really don't know exactly
what each of you believe. And I bet newcomers to this site don't either. :grin: :humm:

For one thing, I really think if we all knew exactly what Christ accomplished on the Cross, the Daniel passage would
become easier to understand.

So how about we do first things first?

I'll start (soon I hope :grin: ) with my understanding of what Christ's mission on the Cross accomplished.


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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:25 am

Ready1 wrote:Instead of telling me what you think it means, just go through it verse by verse (9:1-19)and show how each verse supports your position. And answer the question: Which covenant?


Exit40 wrote:Hi Ready1. I did not realize you had asked this question of me. Forgive my failing memory if you have. So, you are well read enough to know, this Covenant spoken of by Daniel is the Mosaic Covenant. Daniel himself prays about it saying ...

Dan 9:13¶ “As it is written in the Law of Moses ...

Each and every instance Daniel says 'Covenant' he is referring to this. Thus answering your question to me.


Thank you, Exit40.

A straight answer to my question. You are correct and I agree with you completely that the covenant mentioned multiple times in the prayer of Daniel refers to the Mosaic Covenant.

Daniel knows that he and his Jewish brethren are in Babylon because the nation has fallen under God’s judgement due to sin. The Law of Moses makes provision for sin and sets forth God’s judgement on sin. It is conditional. It goes like this: If you sin by doing this, then I, God, will do this. But if you don’t then I won’t.

At this point I am going to insert the scripture references which back up the above statements and then we will look at the passage. These are the curses which go along with sin under the Mosaic law.

Deu_29:20-21, Deu 29:25-29, Deu_27:15-26, Deu_28:15-68; Lev_26:14-46; Dan_9:11-14

I am going to break this up into two posts.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:01 am

Exit40 wrote:...this Covenant spoken of by Daniel is the Mosaic Covenant.


Now, let’s go thru the passage to make certain that these statements can be supported. (By the way this is what I asked from you, Exit40, to support your statement above.)

1. Introduction by Daniel as to what is on his heart that he is taking to God.

Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
Dan 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God,…


2. Daniel begins his confession for his fallen people.

…and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant (Which Covenant: Mosaic He specifically points out that God is keeping the covenant) and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; (If you keep the covenant commandments you get love and mercy)


3. Daniel lists the sins of his people by which they have broken the Mosaic Covenant.

Dan 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:


4. Furthermore we haven’t listened to the warnings given by God’s prophets about the transgressions of the Law.

Dan 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.


5. The Lord is righteous and Daniel’s people are not righteous. So they are reaping their own reward---confusion. And God has driven them out of their country.

Dan 9:7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us (Daniels people) confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
Dan 9:8 O Lord, to us (Daniels people) belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.


6. But, Daniel knew that God was approachable and that he was loving and forgiving. Num 14:18-20 So he stood in the gap, just like Moses did, interceding for his people because he knew that:

Dan 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we (Daniels people) have rebelled against him;


7. Daniel again lists the transgressions and recognizes that there is a curse which goes with disobedience of the Law.

Dan 9:10 Neither have we (Daniels people) obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, (Which laws? The laws of God given to Moses) which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law (Law of Moses), even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us (Daniels people), and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.


8. Daniel recognizes that God has simply done what he said he would do if Daniel’s people refused to heed God’s law (as the law of Moses provides).

Dan 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us (Daniels people), and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us (Daniels people): yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Dan 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.


9. Daniel recalls God’s power in the past, with a disobedient, sinful people, and reminds God of His own mighty name.

Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.


10. Daniel makes his petition to God, not on behalf of his sinful people, but because God is righteous. His request is that God would turn his justifiable anger aside from Jerusalem and Daniel’s brethren and restore them. His plea is "Please don’t make us a reproach any longer."

Dan 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our (Daniel’s people) sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people (Daniel’s brethren) are become a reproach to all that are about us.


11. Don’t do it for our sakes, but please hear my plea and do it for your sake oh Lord!

Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant (Daniel), and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary (the temple) that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.


12. Look at us and Jerusalem, and please listen to my petition because of your great mercy. Please don't hold us to the justifiable penalties of the Mosaic law, but because of who you are, because Jerusalem and Israel are called by your name oh God, please listen to my entreaty.

Dan 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, (because our standing under the Mosaic law is justified) but for thy great mercies.
Dan 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


I believe that your analysis of the covenant of this passage being the Mosaic Covenant is entirely justified and supported by the passage itself. It is from this point forward, Exit40, that I believe that your conclusions are flawed. I will try to show how a little later.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:59 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Ready1 wrote:
Exot40 wrote:Hi Ready1. It seems to me that Daniels prayer throughout Chapter 9 is all about 'The Covenant', and our Father and His Christ doing what He does regarding His keeping His 'Covenant' as shown throughout the Prophecy.


Instead of telling me what you think it means, just go through it verse by verse (9:1-19)and show how each verse supports your position. And answer the question: Which covenant?


Hi Ready1. I did not realize you had asked this question of me. Forgive my failing memory if you have. So, you are well read enough to know, this Covenant spoken of by Daniel is the Mosaic Covenant. Daniel himself prays about it saying ...

Dan 9:13¶ “As it is written in the Law of Moses ...

Each and every instance Daniel says 'Covenant' he is referring to this. Thus answering your question to me. So this question remains, why would the Prophecy given Daniel suddenly change from the Mosaic Covenant to some kind of earthly covenant with whomever ? I'm not trying to throw this in your face, to be argumentative.


Maybe we can take this little by little....

I think that you have asked a reasonable question. If Daniel refers to the Mosaic covenant, and recognizes that he and his people and the holy city of Jerusalem are falling under the curses of the Mosaic law due to their disobedience and sin then why would he change his reference point?

Let's get it right, however, is that your question?
Just observing.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:51 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:ST WROTE: Notice how it does not matter what WE DID, or WHAT the Jews themselves will Do in the Future? IT WAS DONE AT THE CROSS, He Already "Made" "Reconciliation" for Sin.


Sonbeam wrote: But could you be more specific and explain what you mean by saying it does not matter what the Jews will do in the future.

Are you saying that Jews are now fully reconciled to God for all eternity because of the Cross? Did you mean to say they do not have to believe in the Son of God?
The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!

It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!

It's just Absurd.

They are no more Reconciled Now than any person, Jew or Gentile until they Recieve the Reconciliation that Christ BY Himself "MADE".
They must absolutely Believe in the Son of God, just as all who Receive the "Everlasting Righteousness" that Christ Himself Did "Bring In".

If I quote the whole thing, it is just as foolish, maybe more so because it points another untrue and unfounded accusation at us. As well as the fact that it ignores what we have actually said.

What is it that you find foolish or untrue?


The reason i worded it the way i did was to emphasize that the Jews have no ability At All TO Make Reconciliation for Iniquity During the 70 weeks, which is Ready1's position and the position of All full 7 year 70th week Futurists!


If I understand correctly what you are saying, you are declaring that every 70th week "futurist" believes that the Jews have some sort of ability to make reconciliation for iniquity during the 70 weeks. If that is what you are saying, that is both foolish and absurd.

It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that!


We could certainly agree on this statement, but the fact that you have directed it at "all full 7 year 70th week futurists" is both foolish and absurd.

That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!


Again, I would be in complete agreement with your statement, even to the point that I would say that it is impossible for any human other than the God/man Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ, to do any one of the six completions of Dan 9:24. The fact that you have directed this statement at "all full 7 year 70th week futurists" is both foolish and absurd.

It's just Absurd.


If your statements are saying what they appear to be saying you have been foolish and absurd.

They are no more Reconciled Now than any person, Jew or Gentile until they Recieve the Reconciliation that Christ BY Himself "MADE".


Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


There is only one way to salvation. I would hope everyone on this board would be solid on this point. Your implication that some of us "all full 7 year 70th week futurists" do not believe this is both foolish and absurd.

They must absolutely Believe in the Son of God, just as all who Receive the "Everlasting Righteousness" that Christ Himself Did "Bring In".


Everyone must believe in Jesus. Scripture says

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Now, if you meant something other than what I took your words to mean, then I deeply apologize, and ask your forgiveness. However, if you meant what you said, then it is both foolish and absurd, and highly offensive.
Last edited by Ready1 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:53 pm

Exit40 wrote:Ready1 wrote:
Exot40 wrote:
Hi Ready1. It seems to me that Daniels prayer throughout Chapter 9 is all about 'The Covenant', and our Father and His Christ doing what He does regarding His keeping His 'Covenant' as shown throughout the Prophecy.


Ready1 wrote: Instead of telling me what you think it means, just go through it verse by verse (9:1-19)and show how each verse supports your position. And answer the question: Which covenant?


David Exit40 wrote: Hi Ready1. I did not realize you had asked this question of me. Forgive my failing memory if you have. So, you are well read enough to know, this Covenant spoken of by Daniel is the Mosaic Covenant. Daniel himself prays about it saying ...

Dan 9:13¶ “As it is written in the Law of Moses ...

Each and every instance Daniel says 'Covenant' he is referring to this. Thus answering your question to me. So this question remains, why would the Prophecy given Daniel suddenly change from the Mosaic Covenant to some kind of earthly covenant with whomever ?


David and Ready 1,
It is Not True that "the Mosaic Covenant" ALONE is in view from the beginning of Daniels Prayer. The Covenant, The Supersceeding AND Primary Covenant in view is the Abrahamic Covenant, The Mosaic Covenant was Added To OR INTO the Abrahamic Covenant BECAUSE of Transgressions.

Can i prove this? Yes, i sure can.


Note the FIRST USE of the Exact same words as Daniel uses them are found in Duet 7:9.....

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:


Gal 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.




What i've just shown Both of you is the Truth.

The Abrahamic Covenant BY Promise to the Fathers is at the Beginning of Daniel 9 and at the end also.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mark F on Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:51 pm

More questions for Shorttribber and Exit40:

So you believe the seventieth week is half fulfilled, correct? The first 3.5 years have been fulfilled.

You propose that Jesus is the one who stopped the sacrifice and offering at His death and resurrection and "confirmed" a covenant for "A" week, specifically the Abrahamic which was modified with the Mosaic?

If so, when do you begin the seventieth week, with His baptism?

We know God isn't close in His prophecies, but exact, so when do you begin the 69 weeks? :boink:
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:25 pm

Mark F wrote:More questions for Shorttribber and Exit40:

So you believe the seventieth week is half fulfilled, correct? The first 3.5 years have been fulfilled.

You propose that Jesus is the one who stopped the sacrifice and offering at His death and resurrection and "confirmed" a covenant for "A" week, specifically the Abrahamic which was modified with the Mosaic?

If so, when do you begin the seventieth week, with His baptism?

We know God isn't close in His prophecies, but exact, so when do you begin the 69 weeks? :boink:

Yes, Christ's baptism.
As to the beginning of the 69th , I must confess, I don't know.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Exit40 on Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:06 am

shorttribber wrote:What i've just shown Both of you is the Truth.

The Abrahamic Covenant BY Promise to the Fathers is at the Beginning of Daniel 9 and at the end also.


Hi ST. I fully agree, but I think you may have missed this...

Exit40 wrote:I really think the answer to that question reveals the need for the Messiah, the Prince who is to come, who fulfills all of 9:24 at His crucifixion and Resurrection. As the sacrifices required by Mosaic Law are a shadow of good things to come, shadow of these being the hidden Prophecy here, are cut off at Christs finished work on the Cross,


The shadow of good things to come here is the Abrahamic Covenant, and the Prophecy from there. Perhaps I could have expounded more on this. But for the sake of brevity, and taking it one step at a time, I didn't. Our posts are becoming lengthy with quotes and Scriptures, I thought it a good thing to do. Reiterating, the hidden Prophecy IS the Abrahamic Covenant, The Promise of God, Whom by no means is capable of failing or forgetting it. To that point, Christ is that Promise Himself, fulfilled, that being His Crucifixion and primarily, His Resurrection, so that all who believe in Him are saved. Many Scriptures in the New Testament point to this, as you well know. The Promise hidden in Christ, revealed in the New Testament.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:12 am

Exit40 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:What i've just shown Both of you is the Truth.

The Abrahamic Covenant BY Promise to the Fathers is at the Beginning of Daniel 9 and at the end also.


Hi ST. I fully agree, but I think you may have missed this...

Exit40 wrote:I really think the answer to that question reveals the need for the Messiah, the Prince who is to come, who fulfills all of 9:24 at His crucifixion and Resurrection. As the sacrifices required by Mosaic Law are a shadow of good things to come, shadow of these being the hidden Prophecy here, are cut off at Christs finished work on the Cross,


The shadow of good things to come here is the Abrahamic Covenant, and the Prophecy from there. Perhaps I could have expounded more on this. But for the sake of brevity, and taking it one step at a time, I didn't. Our posts are becoming lengthy with quotes and Scriptures, I thought it a good thing to do. Reiterating, the hidden Prophecy IS the Abrahamic Covenant, The Promise of God, Whom by no means is capable of failing or forgetting it. To that point, Christ is that Promise Himself, fulfilled, that being His Crucifixion and primarily, His Resurrection, so that all who believe in Him are saved. Many Scriptures in the New Testament point to this, as you well know. The Promise hidden in Christ, revealed in the New Testament.

God Bless You

David

Such a great and relevent post! :a3: :banana: and there Are Many Good Things Coming Still :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:17 am

shorttribber wrote:David and Ready 1,

It is Not True that "the Mosaic Covenant" ALONE is in view from the beginning of Daniels Prayer. The Covenant, The Supersceeding AND Primary Covenant in view is the Abrahamic Covenant, The Mosaic Covenant was Added Too OR INTO the Abrahamic Covenant BECAUSE of Transgressions.

Can i prove this, yes? i sure can.


Note the FIRST USE of the Exact same words as Daniel uses them are found in Duet 7:9.....

(Duet 7:)8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:


Gal 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.




What i've just shown Both of you is the Truth.

The Abrahamic Covenant BY Promise to the Fathers is at the Beginning of Daniel 9 and at the end also.


Hi shorttribber,

I have reprinted your post, removing the font changes so I could read it.


It is Not True that "the Mosaic Covenant" ALONE is in view from the beginning of Daniels Prayer. The Covenant, The Supersceeding AND Primary Covenant in view is the Abrahamic Covenant, The Mosaic Covenant was Added Too OR INTO the Abrahamic Covenant BECAUSE of Transgressions.

Can i prove this, yes? i sure can.


Providing 2 scriptures which you believe apply to the question at hand does NOT constitute proof. After I stripped all the large fonts out so I could read what you are actually saying, it feels like your "proof" went "poof".

While you might invoke these scriptures as "evidence" to support your thesis, they definitely do not constitute "proof" for anyone other than you. If there is any way that we could stop overstating our positions, it would be really helpful. It would also help if you apologized for the false charges which you leveled at some of us.

What i've just shown Both of you is the Truth.


All scripture is truth.
2Ti_3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The Abrahamic Covenant BY Promise to the Fathers is at the Beginning of Daniel 9 and at the end also.



In my thought process, this is both your thesis and your conclusion. Now I would like to see you support it with something greater than large fonts. (That's pretty harsh, I know, but you have said things were "proof" that are not "proof". In a court of law they would be called circumstantial evidence.)
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:23 am

Exit40 you have advanced your case and I agree up to a point; but at least look at the following from the Palestinian covenant. The curses of the Mosaic covenant are invoked by the Palestinian covenant. Take a look at the possibility of the Palestinian covenant being referenced in by Daniel 9 as well.

Deu 29:1  These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. 


Deu 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
Deu 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Deu 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
Deu 29:22 So that the generation to come of your children that shall rise up after you, and the stranger that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, and the sicknesses which the LORD hath laid upon it;
Deu 29:23 And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath:
Deu 29:24 Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger?
Deu 29:25 Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
Deu 29:26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
Deu 29:27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
Deu 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.


Then there are the fabulous blessings of a future day referred to in the Palestinian covenant because of God's mercy and grace. I really see Daniel 9:24 and the coming Kingdom in this passage.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


The children of Israel had a clear choice and Moses set it before them.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:14 pm

Ready1 wrote:After I stripped all the large fonts out so I could read what you are actually saying, it feels like your "proof" went "poof".

i suppose other readers can decide that for themselves if i gave Solid Proof or if None exists AT ALL, as in "Poof". Stripping the large font does help to conceal the Obvious Reasons i enlarged them though.

Not saying you're concealing anything for others, but it that's what you need to do to help yourself, it's your choice.

When i enlarge fonts or highlight, it's not to shout, yell, or what have you....just so you know that....it's only to Make Obvious the words that can be easily Overlooked upon reading.

That's the only reason.

Ready1 wrote:While you might invoke these scriptures as "evidence" to support your thesis, they definitely do not constitute "proof" for anyone other than you. If there is any way that we could stop overstating our positions, it would be really helpful. It would also help if you apologized for the false charges which you leveled at some of us.


Anyone, really?

Proof only to me? Can You Prove that? Do you Know the thoughts of All Readers Ready1?
Maybe there are SOME others who find that Among TWO Witnesses, TRUTH may be Established, and the conclusion Could be different.

Please let me know if any full 7 year futurist believes that Christ WAS Crucified IN the 70 Weeks, and i will gladly admit my error and apologize, because, this below is the Premis of my Statements that you say are untrue regarding the 7 year futurists.....
shorttribber wrote:It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!


I will gladly apologize for any sadness or discomfort, misunderstandings of any kind of course....i want Love , Respect and Peace among all of us.

Truth Spoken in Love is always my goal.

If i have been too harsh, for that i very humbly Apologize, not only to you personally but to all readers.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:29 pm

I wish i had more time to spend on this Ready1, i really do, because this thread has advanced greatly my work regarding the word "Covenant" itself in the Hebrew Forms.

In my interlinear Bible, i have made some incredible new discoveries that i will be sharing as time provides.

These discoveries will rise to the High bar you have set for me regarding "Proof".

Now, back to the interlinear, i go...... :read: :read2: :read:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:42 pm

Ready1 wrote:It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!


You have attributed to me something I did not write or say. It should have said:

shorttribber wrote:It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!


Would you have any way to clear up the meaning of your sentence? Maybe the only thing that we disagree on is the timing of the 70 weeks. 70th week timing is big, but not as big as the way you have said some other things.

shorttribber wrote:Stripping the large font does help to conceal the Obvious Reasons i enlarged them though. When i enlarge fonts or highlight, it's not to shout, yell, or what have you....just so you know that....it's only to Make Obvious the words that can be easily Overlooked upon reading.


(FYI: FOR ME, your large fonts and multiple fonts make the text largely unreadable. I know you see them for emphasis but it just doesn't work for me. Maybe I need a Ready1 post and everyone else can have a shorttribber version.) :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:59 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Ready1 wrote:It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!


You have attributed to me something I did not write or say. It should have said:

shorttribber wrote:It's really unconscionable that any well studied Christian could believe that! That the Jews could have anything at all to do with the Goals of the 70 weeks themselves, without the Work of Christ occurring Inside the 70 Weeks proper is Beyond Reason!


Would you have any way to clear up the meaning of your sentence? Maybe the only thing that we disagree on is the timing of the 70 weeks. 70th week timing is big, but not as big as the way you have said some other things.

shorttribber wrote:Stripping the large font does help to conceal the Obvious Reasons i enlarged them though. When i enlarge fonts or highlight, it's not to shout, yell, or what have you....just so you know that....it's only to Make Obvious the words that can be easily Overlooked upon reading.


(FYI: FOR ME, your large fonts and multiple fonts make the text largely unreadable. I know you see them for emphasis but it just doesn't work for me. Maybe I need a Ready1 post and everyone else can have a shorttribber version.) :grin:
I'm doing this on my phone. Both quotes are the same but one has you saying it.... Is that something I did earlier, ...because that is what I have said of course, not you.

But they are both the same?????

Like I said, it works for you ok, but please, if you do quote any of my posts will you please leave them as I have posted them?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:09 pm

Your post of "by shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:14 pm " misquoted me. It should have read "shorttribber wrote"
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:14 pm

Ready1 wrote:Your post of "by shorttribber on Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:14 pm " misquoted me. It should have read "shorttribber wrote"

I'm very sorry for that, I didn't know that....I'm very sorry about that and will fix that right away.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:26 pm

Hello,

I gives me great concern that the understanding of Daniel 9 is so miss represented by us all.

Daniel had access to both Jeremiah's and Ezekiel's prophetic books/works at the time of His vision/Gabriel's explanation to enlighten Daniel and to give him the skill to understand his visions.

Daniel 9:20-23: - 20 Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God, 21 yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision


Jeremiah Prophetic ministry finished around the year 586 BC. Ezekiel's ministry occurred during the period around 605-562 BC.

Daniel 9 is thought to have occurred and been recorded around the year 539 BC.

Now as far as the labelled "70th week" is concerned, its labelling as the 70th week brings error into our understanding of the five separate prophecies found in verses 24-27.

Also our visualisation of the Prince who is to come with his army as a human person is also flawed. The fact is that the "Prince" is a fallen wicked heavenly host who can influence people to fulfil his purposes of rising up against Christ in his attempts to kill him when he was born and to trample the Sanctuary of God and His hosts on the earth over a period of 2,300 years. It is not possible for a human to live for this period of time. The four beasts of Daniel 7 also are heavenly hosts who have fallen with Satan.

Daniel from reading both Jeremiah and Ezekiel's books of prophecy, both knew and understood that Israel would be scattered to the four compass points of the earth and that the Temple would be rebuilt and destroyed once more.

Daniel was also aware that although the nation of Israel would be scattered that God would once again draw and gather them to Himself once more and remake the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nations Covenant with the remnant of Israel in the distant future from his time. He also knew that Israel as a corporate people would be required at that time to repent of their continual sins against God.

Daniel understood that God's grace over 490 years was giving Israel an opportunity to repent of their idolatrous sins before their iniquities would be visited upon them such that God would relent of His evil intent and not require the visitation of the fathers iniquities upon them.

Daniel also understood that after the 490 years of grace of God towards the nation of Israel, that the process of reconciliation of people to God and the covering of their sins would change once more and that their Messiah would be the one who would die, i.e. be cut off, but not for Himself but for all of Humanity.

Gabriel also confirmed that the scattering of the Israel and the destruction of God's sanctuary in Jerusalem would be for a period of time of around two ages in duration.

Gabriel also tells Daniel that in the distant future, the prince who come to desolate Jerusalem will make a solemn covenant with many, but that the covenant will be broken by the one who makes desolate, i.e. Satan, until the determined punishment for him is mitred out to him at the time of the end of the Age of the Ages.

Christ did not come to establish a new covenant with the nations, but to put in place a new process by which God's Grace will cover man's sins once and for all time by those who believe in Christ and His act on the cross.

I believe in a future one week of years where this solemn covenant will be enacted by the False Prophet, the prince who came to Jerusalem with an army to destroy Jerusalem and the temple such that it would remain desolate until such time as the war in heaven was finished at the time of the Judgement of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon.

The God Magod battle will encompass the whole earth and end when the armies are drawn once more to Jerusalem when Satan will attempt to establish himself as the king of all the people of the earth, before Jesus captures him and dispatches Satan into the Lake of Fire to join the Beast and the False Prophet.

I know I have covered the time period from Daniel's day to the time of the future judgement when the Great White throne will be established on the earth, but the Book of Daniel also covers this same period of time, in Daniel 9:24-27.

Shalom.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:10 pm

Hi Ready1,

I have considered how to answer your question about how I decide to interpret what I read. I will use Daniel 9:27 as an example.

Different versions of Daniel 9:27 contain different interpretations of the ancient text. The NASB and ESV describe a covenant being made, other translations describe a covenant being confirmed. A short list of potential conceptual understandings are:
1) A seven (7) year covenant made/confirmed
2) A week period, 7 years, in the middle of which, sacrifices and grain offerings are stopped.
3) Abominations occur; consequently, desolation results, and desolation is brought on by an individual.
4) Some interpretations indicate the one who makes the desolation later experiences destruction, the KJ and NKJ, describe those desolated, as the recipients of destruction.

How do I decide which translation is correct? Do I do that through punctuation? No, while punctuation may help clarify what we read, punctuation clues us into the interpreters understanding, not necessarily the original concept intended to be put forth. Various translations might assist in revealing possible intended meanings of the original scriptures. Are all the translations correct? Perhaps. The verses can be interpreted multiple ways and multiple interpretations might be correct. When the same wording appears commonly throughout multiple versions, people still see things differently even though the wording is the same. For example, you and I do not agree on the definition of the goals of Daniel 9:24, even though we read the exact same words.

Furthermore, the definitions of words change over time and it has been over 2000 years since the writing of the book of Daniel. So, even if the words are translated correctly, the meaning of the words 2000 years ago may not be the same meaning of the words today. For example: Daniel 2:38-40 talks about Nebuchadnezzar’s hands being placed over all mankind. Also, within the translation, is mentioned a third kingdom that will rule the whole earth. Did Nebuchadnezzar rule over all mankind? No. Absolutely not. Is the verse false, or, has our definition of “all mankind” changed, or, is the speech figurative, or, does it mean only Jews are all mankind and being subjugated to Nebuchadnezzar makes it true, or, does it mean something else? Has there ever been a ruler of the whole world, using our modern definition of the whole world? No. Is that third kingdom yet future, or, is it a past kingdom that ruled over less than the whole world, a large number of kingdoms, but not the whole world?

So, what do I do to determine which interpretations are correct?

Much like when a scientist puts forth a theory and research is done to determine if the facts and evidence align with the theory, I research history and other scriptures to determine what interpretations are supported by historical evidence and other scriptures. I also use historical evidence to help better understand what was intended to be put forth; sometimes historical evidence bring forth new interpretations.

For Daniel 9:27, Josephus historical writings indicate Vespasian made alliances with local rulers. Alliances. Agreements. An overall Covenant with multiple rulers. It also describes a seven (7) year war, The first Roman Jewish War, in the middle of which sacrifices and offerings ceased because the temple was destroyed. History also describes the blood flow from war deaths in Jerusalem were so great that the flow of blood was putting out fires in the city. Jerusalem was destroyed. Josephus blames the Romans as well as the Jews for their rebellions and wars against each other, and sinister acts of their leaders. Between June 68 AD and July 69AD, there was great deal of uncertainty in The Roman Empire. This time period is called The Year of the Four Emperors; because, four different emperors ruled the Roman Empire throughout this year. Vespasian became the fourth Emperor to rule after Nero died, and Vespasian became emperor only 13 months after Nero Died. Vespasian was the fourth Emperor over a 13 month timespan, not including Nero. Titus, Vespasian’s son, was with Vespasian during The First Jewish Roman War, and took over as commander when Vespasian left to become emperor. Titus continued to work with Vespasian's allies.

So, we have a war that lasted seven years. Vespasian made alliances, agreements, a covenant with his allies and the covenant lasted seven years, the length of the war. While Josephus does not explicitly state Prince Titus confirmed the covenant Vespasian made with his allies, there are records of Titus continuing to meet and work with the allies. The volatility of The Year of Four Emperors, leaves the implication that both Vespasian and Titus, would indeed need to calm the anxieties of their allies by confirming Vespasian’s agreements as each new Emperor took power. After Vespasian took power, Titus met with each of his allies and they gathered together and waged war resulting in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The coordination of Titus and the allies may imply Titus adhered to Vespasian's covenant; very likely as Prince Titus was Vespasian's son.

Because of the historical evidence of: A seven year covenant, A seven year war in the middle of which sacrifices and offerings ceased, and which desolated Jerusalem, and further desolations occurred during the Second Roman Jewish War, and other periods throughout Jewish History including the Holocaust. I conclude that the correct interpretation of the one week of Daniel 9:27 is The first Roman Jewish War. And that war was the beginning of multiple desolations upon the Jewish people until God decides to bring them back and remake Israel as He has done in the past and as described in the Old Testament would occur when they failed to be faithful. With regard to abominations, Josephus mentions the behavior of some of the leaders as very bad; but, also I think the parable of the vineyard owner sending his son, his son being killed, and the owner removing them from the vineyard is evidence of an abomination committed by the Jews, when they killed Christ, and the result of such an act was going to bring the removal and ongoing desolation upon the Jews.

This is how I think, act, and reach my conclusions: Read the verses in multiple translations, identify the concepts, research history for historical evidence to identify the possible correct interpretation(s), then, see how those concepts align with other scriptures.

Another part of my thought processes are:
1) The lack of evidence does not prove something either true or false.
2) Unfilled prophecies must lack evidence of fulfillment, for they are future, no evidence can yet exist of fulfillment.
3) Therefore, any historical evidence, regardless of whether it is complete, is evidence of fulfillment.
4) A theory that is supported by evidence of fulfillment is stronger than a theory that lacks evidence of fulfillment.
5) When two theories contradict, such as historical vs future, proof one theory as true, proves the other as false. (Called Proof by Contradiction)

I apologize for the time to respond. I realized what I communicated before was not perceived as how I think and make my decisions; therefore, I took some time to consider how I might best describe my processes. Hope this is a better explanation and answers other questions you have asked.

May our father bless you and your family continually.

Keith
Edited 4.26.20
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:23 am

Previous post edited to add:

Another part of my thought processes are:
1) The lack of evidence does not prove something either true or false.
2) Unfilled prophecies must lack evidence of fulfillment, for they are future; No evidence can yet exist of fulfillment.
3) Therefore, any historical evidence, regardless of whether it is complete, is evidence of fulfillment.
4) A theory that is supported by evidence of fulfillment is stronger than a theory that lacks evidence of fulfillment.
5) When two theories contradict, such as historical vs future, proof one theory as true, proves the other as false. (Called Proof by Contradiction)

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Exit40 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:44 am

Ready1 wrote:Exit40 you have advanced your case and I agree up to a point; but at least look at the following from the Palestinian covenant. The curses of the Mosaic covenant are invoked by the Palestinian covenant. Take a look at the possibility of the Palestinian covenant being referenced in by Daniel 9 as well.


Deu 29:1  These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. 


Hi Ready1. Yes, also called the Land Covenant, I believe this is the very reason for the Babylonian capture of Jerusalem for 70 years, as explained by Jeremiah, and discovered by Daniel. It called for leaving the land fallow for one year every seven years to allow it to recuperate, and the methods for this process. Israel did not do this one single time, I believe, thus the Lord did it for them through the Babylonians, for the 70 year period. There are Scriptures about this of course, I'll have to find them.

Time is short this morning, I'll try get back to this today. If not, then tomorrow.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:50 am

WOW! I so strongly encourage any or all who can to aquire The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew,Greek,English JP Green!
They can be bought for $40 or less! You will be soooooooo glad you did!
:banana: :banana: :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:45 am

The shadow of good things to come here is the Abrahamic Covenant, and the Prophecy from there. Perhaps I could have expounded more on this. But for the sake of brevity, and taking it one step at a time, I didn't. Our posts are becoming lengthy with quotes and Scriptures, I thought it a good thing to do. Reiterating, the hidden Prophecy IS the Abrahamic Covenant, The Promise of God, Whom by no means is capable of failing or forgetting it. To that point, Christ is that Promise Himself, fulfilled, that being His Crucifixion and primarily, His Resurrection, so that all who believe in Him are saved. Many Scriptures in the New Testament point to this, as you well know. The Promise hidden in Christ, revealed in the New Testament.

:a3: David! God bless you!!
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:14 am

When did Jesus ministry begin? At the end of 69th week or at the beginning of 70th week?
thanks!
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:38 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:When did Jesus ministry begin? At the end of 69th week or at the beginning of 70th week?
thanks!

@ the beginning of the 70th week, first day of the 70th week. That is After the 69th week, just as the scripture says
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:23 am

shorttribber wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:When did Jesus ministry begin? At the end of 69th week or at the beginning of 70th week?
thanks!

@ the beginning of the 70th week, first day of the 70th week. That is After the 69th week, just as the scripture says


Exactly what I was thinking, 3.5 years of the first half and Jesus was cutoff in the midst of the "Week"... :)

I used to think the 70th week began at the time of His Triumph Entry to Jerusalem...
Blessings!
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:37 pm

Thank you, keithareilly, you have coherently and capably outlined your thought process. While we are not in agreement, I can understand your methodology and processes.

For myself, one of the things which you did not mention that I must look at in a passage as defined as Dan 9, is a starting point. Without a starting point, which everything builds upon, we cannot have a correct ending point. But that is a whole different discussion.

Thank you for sharing your processes and for taking the time to write it up.

May the Lord be with you. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mark F on Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:41 am

shorttribber wrote:WOW! I so strongly encourage any or all who can to aquire The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew,Greek,English JP Green!
They can be bought for $40 or less! You will be soooooooo glad you did!
:banana: :banana: :banana:


There is a free downloadable Interlinear available, its called "Interlinear Scripture Analyzer" there are two versions, they are 2 and 3, ISA Basic 2, and ISA Basic 3. They are at https://www.scripture4all.org

There is a link on that page that allows you to access a pdf page so you don't have to install any software, but if you do the the Strong's definitions etc., are available by clicking on the words, I think it is a good tool. I have both versions, ISA 2 is in the AV, isa 3 is in CLV.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Exit40 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:21 am

Ready1 wrote:Exit40 you have advanced your case and I agree up to a point; but at least look at the following from the Palestinian covenant. The curses of the Mosaic covenant are invoked by the Palestinian covenant. Take a look at the possibility of the Palestinian covenant being referenced in by Daniel 9 as well.


Hi Ready1. After reviewing the Scriptures about the Land Covenant I came across this passage, which was just after what you posted, the very next verse actually.

Deu 29:29 ¶ “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Here is Scriptural confirmation, the secret things, the hidden Prophecy, of Christ fulfilling all the Law and Prophets at His coming. You may say, well they are secret, yet at which point can we ask, when are the secret things revealed. My position is Christ fulfilled all of Daniel 9:24-27 at His Resurrection and entering the Temple made without hands in Heaven. What remains of this Prophecy may be this portion, or it may have been partially fulfilled in 70AD, as a shadow of things to come.

even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Thoughts ?

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:43 am

Exit40 wrote: My position is Christ fulfilled all of Daniel 9:24-27 at His Resurrection and entering the Temple made without hands in Heaven.


Please tell me how? I have seen this point stated and restated, yet no one has explained what they mean by this statement or how He did it.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:37 am

I have repeatedly requested clarification on this point, since it is one that Mr. Baldy and others of you use frequently, but I have never had explained. On another thread I requested further explanation as follows.

Ready1 wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:As mentioned, I believe that the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the Ministry; Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus. We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.


I have seen this statement multiple times, in fact over and over in one form or another; but I would like for someone to share what they mean by this statement on a point-by-point basis. (i.e. There are six or seven things (depending on how you divide them) which will be completed by the ending of the 70 weeks.) If this statement is indeed true, and I am not questioning whether you believe it to be true, each point ought to be supportable by other scriptures which point back to this passage. They ought to be contextually accurate and be able to advance the argument that "the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the ministry: Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus."

Any takers?

Jesus statement on the cross has been bandied around multiple times as well, with the claim that it is supportive of this notion. The following is a common example of this type of statement. And while I believe that I understand well what Jesus was saying on the cross, I have no way to tie it to Dan 9:24. So I am curious how someone else can do so. While it sounds good, even impressive, at this point I have not seen any scriptural support for this claim. Please give the logic and reasoning behind your claim.

Mr Baldy wrote:We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.


It is my position that if you cannot back up your statement with scripture, you probably ought to quit using it as an argument.
Just observing.

E.
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