Daniel 9:24-27

[Ready1]

I have a really dumb question for Mr Baldy and keithareilly:Since, according to both of you, Jesus was crucified in the seventieth week, and since the seventieth week followed on the heels of the sixty-ninth week, how in the world could Titus have fulfilled the AOD prophecies? If Jesus was crucified in AD 32 (plus or minus) then the 70th week ended in AD 39. Titus didn't wander in until AD 70 or the 75th week. Unless there was a gap...gasp! How oh how can Jesus and Titus be in the 70th week together?And if not Titus, who?

Hi Ready1 -

It wasn't Keith who "asked" if Titus may be responsible for the AOD mentioned in Daniel 9:27 - it was me.

And to answer your question - which actually came in your own words, Jesus died at or around AD 30 - 32 and Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 AD which is around 38 to 40 years later. This evidence is incontrovertible - and the reason why I have asked.

What evidence?

[keithareilly]

Hi again Ready1,


With regards to Titus, the one week mentioned on Daniel 9:27 is not part of the 70 weeks prophesy; it is a one week prophecy that describes the consequences of Christ's crucifixion by the Jews.

They are two different prophecies.
1) 70 weeks about what is accomplished by the Jews and Jerusalem when they kill Christ, verse 24,
2) 1 week about about the consequences of killing Christ, verse 27.

Look closer at the verses.
Verse 24 describes what the Jews and Jerusalem accomplish.
Verse 27 describes what the prince and the people who come accomplish.

Verses 24 and 27 are not describing the same events accomplished by the same people;
Each verse describes different events accomplished by different people.
Therefore, they are different prophecies, not the same prophecy.

As you have describes earlier, they happened quite a few years apart.
This is consistent with them being different prophecies.

Keith

[Ready1]

Hi again Ready1,


With regards to Titus, the one week mentioned on Daniel 9:27 is not part of the 70 weeks prophesy; it is a one week prophecy that describes the consequences of Christ's crucifixion by the Jews.

This is the crux of your argument, if I understand you. Everything else hinges on this understanding. I am curious, though, what gives you the authority to make such a claim. You are stating that there are two revelations in Dan 9:24-27.

They are two different prophecies.
1) 70 weeks about what is accomplished by the Jews and Jerusalem when they kill Christ, verse 24,
2) 1 week about about the consequences of killing Christ, verse 27.

This is an incredible claim. Furthermore, to my understanding, it is a "not credible" claim.

How does this chapter start? Daniel prays to God for understanding about the seventy years spoken of in Jeremiah 23:15, 23:17, and 25:11. Daniel is praying that God would show mercy to his people and His holy city Jerusalem. He prays that God would remove his anger and fury from Jerusalem and restore it "for thy names sake". Daniel's prayer spans verses 9:1 through 9:19.

Read for yourself:

Dan 9:2  In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 
Dan 9:3  And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 
Dan 9:4  And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 
Dan 9:5  We have sinned,

Daniel has lots of confessions in this area about the sins of his people Dan 9:5-9:15

Dan 9:16  O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. 
Dan 9:17  Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. 
Dan 9:18  O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. 
Dan 9:19  O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name. 

What happens next? Gabriel comes! Daniel knows it's Gabriel because he's seen him in another vision. And what does Gabriel say? He says to Daniel, "When you started praying, Daniel, the commandment came for me to give you "skill and understanding" or wisdom and insight because of God's great love for you."

Dan 9:22  And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 
Dan 9:23  At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved:

Did we leave something out? Oh yess. Gabe's notification that there is going to be two revelations, two prophecies.

They are two different prophecies.
1) 70 weeks about what is accomplished by the Jews and Jerusalem when they kill Christ, verse 24,
2) 1 week about about the consequences of killing Christ, verse 27.

The only trouble is that there is no notification of two different prophecies and we did not quote all of what Gabriel actually said. We need to get it right.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision

.

What does Gabriel say? He says to understand "the matter" and he says to consider "the vision". He does not say to understand "the matters" or "consider multiple visions." What Gabriel is sharing from God is a single matter and vision and he is telling Daniel to listen so he can understand the meaning of his vision.

Seventy weeks is the matter and the vision which Gabriel shares. He expands Daniels knowledge of that by telling him that it is composed of seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one week, all a part of the matter and vision, and all found in Dan 9:24-27. It is NOT seventy weeks plus some other week. It is seventy weeks as shown by Gabriel in a single vision or revelation, and recorded in four little verses. No separation, not two prophecies, not 71 weeks, not 70 weeks and one week.

So once again I would ask what gives you the authority to make such a claim?

[shorttribber]

Hi again Ready1,


With regards to Titus, the one week mentioned on Daniel 9:27 is not part of the 70 weeks prophesy; it is a one week prophecy that describes the consequences of Christ's crucifixion by the Jews.

This is the crux of your argument, if I understand you. Everything else hinges on this understanding. I am curious, though, what gives you the authority to make such a claim. You are stating that there are two revelations in Dan 9:24-27.

They are two different prophecies.
1) 70 weeks about what is accomplished by the Jews and Jerusalem when they kill Christ, verse 24,
2) 1 week about about the consequences of killing Christ, verse 27.

This is an incredible claim. Furthermore, to my understanding, it is a "not credible" claim.

How does this chapter start? Daniel prays to God for understanding about the seventy years spoken of in Jeremiah 23:15, 23:17, and 25:11. Daniel is praying that God would show mercy to his people and His holy city Jerusalem. He prays that God would remove his anger and fury from Jerusalem and restore it "for thy names sake". Daniel's prayer spans verses 9:1 through 9:19.

Read for yourself:

Dan 9:2  In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 
Dan 9:3  And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 
Dan 9:4  And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 
Dan 9:5  We have sinned,

Daniel has lots of confessions in this area about the sins of his people Dan 9:5-9:15

Dan 9:16  O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. 
Dan 9:17  Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. 
Dan 9:18  O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. 
Dan 9:19  O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name. 

What happens next? Gabriel comes! Daniel knows it's Gabriel because he's seen him in another vision. And what does Gabriel say? He says to Daniel, "When you started praying, Daniel, the commandment came for me to give you "skill and understanding" or wisdom and insight because of God's great love for you."

Dan 9:22  And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 
Dan 9:23  At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved:

Did we leave something out? Oh yess. Gabe's notification that there is going to be two revelations, two prophecies.

They are two different prophecies.
1) 70 weeks about what is accomplished by the Jews and Jerusalem when they kill Christ, verse 24,
2) 1 week about about the consequences of killing Christ, verse 27.

The only trouble is that there is no notification of two different prophecies and we did not quote all of what Gabriel actually said. We need to get it right.

Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision

.

What does Gabriel say? He says to understand "the matter" and he says to consider "the vision". He does not say to understand "the matters" or "consider multiple visions." What Gabriel is sharing from God is a single matter and vision and he is telling Daniel to listen so he can understand the meaning of his vision.

Seventy weeks is the matter and the vision which Gabriel shares. He expands Daniels knowledge of that by telling him that it is composed of seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one week, all a part of the matter and vision, and all found in Dan 9:24-27. It is NOT seventy weeks plus some other week. It is seventy weeks as shown by Gabriel in a single vision or revelation, and recorded in four little verses. No separation, not two prophecies, not 71 weeks, not 70 weeks and one week.

So once again I would ask what gives you the authority to make such a claim?

That's a dandy of a post!

[Jericho]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, but I tend to agree with Ready1 that the 70th week is still future tense. I believe that after the 69th week God stopped his prophetic clock, and once this church age is over it will resume and coincide with the events in Revelation. One of the proclamations of the 70th week is to "finish the transgression". I suppose that could be interpreted in different ways. But I think the transgression is Israel's rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, which continues to this day. I believe this interpretation can be supported with other scriptures. In fact, it appears that Jesus' Second Coming is conditional upon the Jews acknowledging this offense:

I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” (Hos 5:15)

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zec 12:10)

“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ ” (Mat 23:39)

They will acknowledge their offense during the Great Tribulation when they are faced with annihilation from the Antichrist:

Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up. (Hos 6:1)

Their national repentance is expounded upon further in Isaiah 53:1-9. Only then will Jesus return and save them.

[keithareilly]

Hi Ready1,

One vision does not equate to one prophecy.
1. The Book of Revelations comes from one vision. How many prophecies are in the Book of Revelation?
2. The vision Daniel 7 had, the four beasts, was only on vision, yet it contained prophecies of four different kingdoms and the kingdoms spanned a long time.
3. Nebuchadnezzar's dream was a single vision about multiple rulers.
4. Pharaoh's dream, one vision, contains seven years of abundance, followed by an additional seven years of famine.
It contained two prophecies, one of abundance lasting seven years, one of famine lasting a second seven years.
Total years, 14.

Scriptural evidence reveals a single vision can contain multiple prophecies.

Daniel 9:24-27 is not just about 70 weeks only,
1. Your argument that Christ was crucified outside the 70 weeks is evidence you acknowledge the vision is not about only what happens during just the 70 weeks.
2. Every person with the gap theory argues this prophecy is not just about the 70 weeks. It is 70 weeks plus a gap. And they argue the gap is included in the prophecy, just as you argue.

I think you are stretching here to say because it is only one vision it must be only one prophecy and only one time period of 70 weeks.

Arguing Christ was crucified after the 69 weeks, but, not during the 70th week, places his prophesied crucifixion "cut off" outside the 70 weeks. So we are both arguing it is not just about prophecies that happen during the 70 weeks.

The choice we have is:
Is the Daniel 9:24-27 about 70 week plus a gap, OR, is about multiple prophecies not just the 70 weeks prophecy.

Neither of those choices is about only 70 weeks.



Keith
Edited

[Mr Baldy]

Scriptural evidence reveals a single vision can contain multiple prophecies.

This is what he's not understanding in a nutshell.

I happen to agree with you Keith - and think that you have explained everything very well.

Very often when believers have been taught to believe a certain way, it's very hard to have them change their old ways of thinking.

[keithareilly]

Scriptural evidence reveals a single vision can contain multiple prophecies.

This is what he's not understanding in a nutshell.

I happen to agree with you Keith - and think that you have explained everything very well.

Very often when believers have been taught to believe a certain way, it's very hard to have them change their old ways of thinking.

It was very hard for me to change.

As I do not have an end times theory, it really does not matter to me what people think about the end times.
What is important to me is what was accomplished by the death and resurrection of Christ.

I post in this thread not because of end times theories, but, to share what was accomplished and what is available to us. Everlasting righteousness, an end to sin, all the things listed in verse 24 are available to each of us.
I want people to know that.

Keith

[Mr Baldy]

The choice we have is: Is the Daniel 9:24-27 about 70 week plus a gap OR is about multiple prophecies not just the 70 weeks prophecy.

I think you are stretching here to say because it is only one vision it must be only one prophecy and only one time period of 70 weeks.

I think all who believe in the Gap Theory are not only "stretching" the meaning of the 70th week to fit some sort of End Time Paradigm - but are also performing an act of Scripture Torture.

Perhaps a bit of reading the Scripture for exactly what it means, and not placing any limitations on what is written, which often times calls for a level of "thinking outside the proverbial box" - may be in order.

The 70 weeks have been completed - and it further presented "types and shadows" of a future 3.5 year period that is to come.

[Mr Baldy]

It was very hard for me to change.

Me as well - but I give God the praise and glory that someone on a religious forum challenged me to read Scripture for myself. She was referring to the PreTrib Rapture - which I was sold out to hook line and sinker. I was very argumentative, and mentioning so many passages of Scripture to support my die hard PreTrib Rapture belief. And she very calmly, ask me once again to pray; read Scripture for myself and seek God. I was stubborn, but her words never left my thoughts. Then when I truly began to actually read, and with much prayer; because I was searching for the Truth - It became so clear to me that the PreTrib Rapture Theory is just not true. Discovering this absolutely changed my life, my way of studying bible prophecy; and it further caused me to have a even more deeper desire to know God.

As I do not have an end times theory, it really does not matter to me what people think about the end times. What is important to me is what was accomplished by the death and resurrection of Christ.

I respect your candor. But you have contributed - and in a tremendous way. I must say that I was a bit surprised that you didn't add some Historical Facts in your responses.

I post in this thread not because of end times theories, but, to share what was accomplished and what is available to us. Everlasting righteousness, an end to sin, all the things listed in verse 24 are available to each of us. I want people to know that

And I echo what you are saying...… Scripture mentions "Spiritual Gifts." And Paul said if we are to desire a spiritual gift, desire the Gift of Prophecy - because it edifies the Body of Christ.

Here is what he had to say:

1 Corinthians 14:1-5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Prophecy a Superior Gift

1) Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3) But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4) One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5) Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Now, I understand your stance on not having a view on End Time Prophecy; however you mentioned your desire to share what Christ accomplished on the Cross and what is available to us. Thank you for participating and sharing your input - as it is greatly needed, and it edifies the Body of Christ. You see even though you don't have a particular End Time View - what you have passion for is evident. Everything in Scripture, from the Beginning to the End points directly to Jesus.

Prophecy is extremely important as it gives believers hope. But it must be the Truth. Your input, and obvious discernment on this particular topic specifically relates to Bible Prophecy; and perhaps even shows that you have been blessed with this gift.

[shorttribber]

With regards to Titus, the one week mentioned on Daniel 9:27 is not part of the 70 weeks prophesy; it is a one week prophecy that describes the consequences of Christ's crucifixion by the Jews.

They are two different prophecies.
1) 70 weeks about what is accomplished by the Jews and Jerusalem when they kill Christ, verse 24,
2) 1 week about the consequences of killing Christ, verse 27.

Look closer at the verses.
Verse 24 describes what the Jews and Jerusalem accomplish.
Verse 27 describes what the prince and the people who come accomplish.

Verses 24 and 27 are not describing the same events accomplished by the same people;
Each verse describes different events accomplished by different people.
Therefore, they are different prophecies, not the same prophecy.

As you have describes earlier, they happened quite a few years apart.
This is consistent with them being different prophecies.

Hi Keith,

Looking at your position and as Mr B. has said regarding your honest admission that you have no End Time View, it is a wonder to me that you could be so adamant regarding the 70 week fulfillment.

First, when it comes to Bible prophecy, historic OR future, all parts (scripture) must agree together, without contradiction.

Second, Personal Opinions MUST be subservient to what is already written, be it historic prophecy, or future prophecy.

Third, To REQUIRE a certain Time Period to be fulfilled BECAUSE it just must be that way (that is continuous) without any interruption...is Your Personal Rule....Not God's Rule.

Fourth, we have clear evidence, In Scripture that God himself does/did not Follow the Rule that you seem to have for Him in Your interpretation of Times, Days, or Day.

Fifth, The "Day" of The Lord is One Example, The First Coming of Christ occurred on/in the Day of the Lord....and Is Divided by the grafting in of the Gentiles.

It should come as no surprise to you or any student of Bible prophecy that the reading does not Usually follow a Linear Timeline. Commonly, and very intentionally by God and the form of writing, repetitious ideas are folded together and over lap in historic and real time.

Is 10
20 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness..........................................................

..............27 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.........................

..............32 As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.

(At This Point, please remember that there WERE/ARE no Paragraph Divisions)........... Remember, what occurs in the beginning of the Next Chapter occurs in "That Day"

....................................On to Is 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him
, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.



10 And in that day
there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


Insert ROMANS 15:

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith {Is 11:10 ABOVE}, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


Returning to Is.11

11 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time
to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

[keithareilly]

Hi Mr Baldy,

I do not think Daniel 9:24-27 was written to be understood easily. God had to keep people’s eyes shut for Christ to be crucified. So, I do not think these verses were prophesied in such a way as to be readily understood.

The dilemma these verses create is that we cannot fit everything inside the 70 weeks. The gap theory means Christ was "cut off" after the 69 weeks, but, not during the 70th week, therefore, Christ was crucified outside the 70 weeks. So not everything fits in the 70 weeks. What people do is say, it was right after the 69th week, therefore, so close it does not need to be included in the 69 weeks; we'll just attach it to the 69th week and call it apart of the 69th week. It is a caboose, not really part of the train. And people accept that, even though scripture clearly states Christ was crucified after the 69th week, not during the 69th week.

One could do that and then say OK, the 70th week was the Week of Daniel 9:27, First Jewish Roman War, in when the temple was destroyed in 70AD. Then we would still have a gap, but, the 70 weeks would be over. But, then we don't have Israel right before God. So, then we must reject that and extend the gap, ignoring: the First Jewish Roman War, the destruction of the temple, the stopping of the sacrifices, in the middle of the one week war, as prophesied in Daniel 9:27, and say it must be future.

It does not matter how Verses 9:24-27 are interpreted; it cannot be interpreted such that everything prophesied in verse 9:24-27 happens within the 70 week time frame. Either there is a gap, and Christ was crucified in that gap, or, the 70 weeks came to an end and there are multiple prophecies in the verses.

So, how does one decide if the gap theory is correct, or, if the multiple prophecy theory is correct?
I chose to examine history to see if prophesy and history align.

When I started to examine this question, I had to ask another question. Since everything cannot fit into the 70 weeks, what events are required to be included in the 70 weeks? Verse 24 is explicit about what is to be accomplished during the 70 weeks. Therefore, anything that accomplishes those goals must be a part of the 70 weeks and accomplished during the 70 weeks. I then considered: Shall I assume the rest of the vision must be a part of the 70 weeks, or should I limit what must be accomplished to what is explicitly stated in verse 24 and leave the other things in the visions as may not be required to be accomplished during the 70 weeks, but, nevertheless, might be accomplished during the 70 weeks. I limited the requirements to what is explicitly stated in verse 24 is to be accomplished during the 70 weeks.

The kicker for me was Christ's crucifixion and resurrection were necessary to accomplish the goals. Therefore, it must be part of the 70 weeks prophesy. What keyed me to this was "to bring in Everlasting Righteousness" was accomplished through the death and resurrection of Christ. Therefore, his death and resurrection cannot be a caboose sitting in a gap outside the 70 weeks. It must be part of the 70 weeks, and, since it cannot be the first 69 weeks, it must be the 70th week. When I looked at Daniel 9:27, the prince and the people coming and destroying the temple and stopping the sacrifices, I asked myself, are these events needed to accomplish the goals of verse 24? No, they are not. Therefore, they do not need to be included in the 70 weeks. After all, the 70 weeks prophecy is about what must be accomplished in verse 24. I then realized I was mistaken when assuming the entire vision must be included in the 70 weeks. For only the accomplishments listed in verse 24 are the requirements listed for the 70 weeks.

Because the one week of Daniel 9:27, which aligns with the First Jewish Roman War, which lasted one week, in the middle of which the temple was destroyed and the sacrifices stopped, is not required to accomplish the goals listed in verse 24, I realized it was its own individual prophecy that had been fulfilled; proven through historical evidence. According to history this prophecy was not fulfilled during the same week Christ was crucified. Therefore, I accepted this verse as its own individual prophecy about an additional week, not a week included in the 70 weeks.

Because of what I discovered; I accept the multi prophecy idea over the gap theory idea.


Keith

[shorttribber]

The dilemma these verses create is that we cannot fit everything inside the 70 weeks. The gap theory means Christ was "cut off" after the 69 weeks, but, not during the 70th week, therefore, Christ was crucified outside the 70 weeks. So not everything fits in the 70 weeks. What people do is say, it was right after the 69th week, therefore, so close it does not need to be included in the 69 weeks; we'll just attach it to the 69th week and call it apart of the 69th week. It is a caboose, not really part of the train. And people accept that, even though scripture clearly states Christ was crucified after the 69th week, not during the 69th week.

That is true for those who view the entire 70th week as still future.
That is not true regarding my position, Shorrttrib/Prewrath.

It does not matter how Verses 9:24-27 are interpreted; it cannot be interpreted such that everything prophesied in verse 9:24-27 happens within the 70 week time frame. Either there is a gap, and Christ was crucified in that gap, or, the 70 weeks came to an end and there are multiple prophecies in the verses.

Not true regarding Shorttrib/Prewrath position. (Christ WAS Crucified INSIDE the 70th week)

So, how does one decide if the gap theory is correct, or, if the multiple prophecy theory is correct?
I chose to examine history to see if prophesy and history align.

And i choose to "examine history to see if prophecy and history align" AND Be sure that MY Personal Examination ALSO aligns with the written texts of prophecy YET TO BE FULFILLED.

To say, "i have no end times position" is only an admission that PAST prophecy can't be Understood Completely while compared to prophecy Yet to be fulfilled.


THAT is the Truth of the Matter.....................ALL Must work properly together...OR... OUR Position and understanding on Any Given prophecy is Not COMPLETELY Clear.

[keithareilly]

Hi Shorttrib.

Thanks for the post. I wish I had completed the last one before you posted. It would be a good response.

Generally, I perceive people with end times theories as interpreting what they read through their end times theories.
I have the same problem with my map theory. It is why I do not try to tie into some bigger theory.

Read my last post, it is how I got to where I am today.

It is Okay if we do not agree. I have been reading Ready1's post in more depth.
While I don't agree. I do see the hope and trust he has in God and I like that.

Being a much more cynical person, to me, he is like a breath of fresh hope for a better future.
You are also a great challenger, and make me think harder about things.
Mr. Baldy encourages me to stay.
Many times I ask myself why should I, a person without and end times theory, stay on this forum.
I wonder if I waste my time.
But, even those I do not agree with help me share what I see and I listen to what they see, even when I do not agree.
And though I do not get along well with some, I still read their posts, but, try to avoid fights by not responding.

Thanks for your feed back and challenges.

And thank you Ready1 for starting this topic.
Regardless of which side people take. I think this strengthens each persons view.

Keith

[keithareilly]

The dilemma these verses create is that we cannot fit everything inside the 70 weeks. The gap theory means Christ was "cut off" after the 69 weeks, but, not during the 70th week, therefore, Christ was crucified outside the 70 weeks. So not everything fits in the 70 weeks. What people do is say, it was right after the 69th week, therefore, so close it does not need to be included in the 69 weeks; we'll just attach it to the 69th week and call it apart of the 69th week. It is a caboose, not really part of the train. And people accept that, even though scripture clearly states Christ was crucified after the 69th week, not during the 69th week.

That is true for those who view the entire 70th week as still future.
That is not true regarding my position, Shorrttrib/Prewrath.

It does not matter how Verses 9:24-27 are interpreted; it cannot be interpreted such that everything prophesied in verse 9:24-27 happens within the 70 week time frame. Either there is a gap, and Christ was crucified in that gap, or, the 70 weeks came to an end and there are multiple prophecies in the verses.

Not true regarding Shorttrib/Prewrath position. (Christ WAS Crucified INSIDE the 70th week)

So, how does one decide if the gap theory is correct, or, if the multiple prophecy theory is correct?
I chose to examine history to see if prophesy and history align.

And i choose to "examine history to see if prophecy and history align" AND Be sure that MY Personal Examination ALSO aligns with the written texts of prophecy YET TO BE FULFILLED.

To say, "i have no end times position" is only an admission that PAST prophecy can't be Understood Completely while compared to prophecy Yet to be fulfilled.


THAT is the Truth of the Matter.....................ALL Must work properly together...OR... OUR Position and understanding on Any Given prophecy is Not COMPLETELY Clear.

I have been waiting for this! Knew it was coming as I wrote it. :)

[keithareilly]

Hey Shorttrib,

Why don't you give a quick summary of your shorttrib view in light of this dicusssion.

[shorttribber]

Hey Shorttrib,

Why don't you give a quick summary of your shorttrib view in light of this dicusssion.

On my phone right now.....it is explained in a thread called shorttrib/prewrath, on page 5 of the prophecy debate section

[keithareilly]

Shorttrib,

Just FYI, I choose evidence over interpretation when studying prophecy.

I do this because, evidence helps me discover the truth and make more accurate interpretations.

The First Jewish Roman War is pretty Good Evidence the one week of Daniel 9:27 has been completed.
A 7 year war, in the middle of which, that is 3 1/2 years after the one week started, sacrifices and offerings ceased and the temple destroyed; just as prophesied.
Pretty Good Evidence Daniel 9:27 has been accomplished.

Keith

[Mr Baldy]

I accept the multi prophecy idea over the gap theory idea.

And so do I

Scripture is full of "type & shadows" of things to come - and it doesn't negate the fact that the requirements set forth to be completed in the 70th weeks were not fulfilled. They were ALL fulfilled in Christ.

[shorttribber]

I accept the multi prophecy idea over the gap theory idea.

And so do I

Scripture is full of "type & shadows" of things to come - and it doesn't negate the fact that the requirements set forth to be completed in the 70th weeks were not fulfilled. They were ALL fulfilled in Christ.

I accept both..because both interact with each other...

Will explain in detail later today

[shorttribber]

I accept the multi prophecy idea over the gap theory idea.

And so do I

Scripture is full of "type & shadows" of things to come - and it doesn't negate the fact that the requirements set forth to be completed in the 70th weeks were not fulfilled. They were ALL fulfilled in Christ.

I accept both..because both interact with each other...

Will explain in detail later today

[Ready1]

Hi Ready1,

One vision does not equate to one prophecy.
1. The Book of Revelations comes from one vision. How many prophecies are in the Book of Revelation?
2. The vision Daniel 7 had, the four beasts, was only on vision, yet it contained prophecies of four different kingdoms and the kingdoms spanned a long time.
3. Nebuchadnezzar's dream was a single vision about multiple rulers.
4. Pharaoh's dream, one vision, contains seven years of abundance, followed by an additional seven years of famine.
It contained two prophecies, one of abundance lasting seven years, one of famine lasting a second seven years.
Total years, 14.

Scriptural evidence reveals a single vision can contain multiple prophecies.

Daniel 9:24-27 is not just about 70 weeks only,
1. Your argument that Christ was crucified outside the 70 weeks is evidence you acknowledge the vision is not about only what happens during just the 70 weeks.
2. Every person with the gap theory argues this prophecy is not just about the 70 weeks. It is 70 weeks plus a gap. And they argue the gap is included in the prophecy, just as you argue.

I think you are stretching here to say because it is only one vision it must be only one prophecy and only one time period of 70 weeks.

Arguing Christ was crucified after the 69 weeks, but, not during the 70th week, places his prophesied crucifixion "cut off" outside the 70 weeks. So we are both arguing it is not just about prophecies that happen during the 70 weeks.

The choice we have is:
Is the Daniel 9:24-27 about 70 week plus a gap, OR, is about multiple prophecies not just the 70 weeks prophecy.

Neither of those choices is about only 70 weeks.



Keith
Edited

Hi Ready1,

One vision does not equate to one prophecy.
1. The Book of Revelations comes from one vision. How many prophecies are in the Book of Revelation?

Once again it is my opinion that we must be very careful in our discernment and be precise in our understanding of what the Bible says. Does the Bible call the Book of Revelations a single vision? Let's allow God’s word to speak for itself.

Rev 1:1 This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show His servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to His servant John,
Rev 1:2 who faithfully reported everything he saw. This is his report of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Scripture says that this is “a revelation” which shows multiple “events”, not a vision which contains multiple prophecies.

2. The vision Daniel 7 had, the four beasts, was only on vision, yet it contained prophecies of four different kingdoms and the kingdoms spanned a long time.

Scripture is precise. Scripture calls this “A dream” but it also says Daniel saw “visions” as he was on his bed.

Dan 7:1 Earlier, during the first year of King Belshazzar's reign in Babylon, Daniel had a dream and saw visions as he lay in his bed.

Scripture says this is a single “dream” that has multiple “visions” rather than a single vision with multiple prophecies. The interpretation is a single interpretation not a vision which contains multiple prophecies.

3. Nebuchadnezzar's dream was a single vision about multiple rulers.

Once again, scripture calls this “a dream” and Daniel is responsible to share “the interpretation” (singular) of the whole dream. Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar God wants him to know that his dream was about “what should come hereafter” or what is going to happen in the future. Furthermore he says that God, through Daniel, will reveal thoughts that were in the king’s heart.

One dream, one interpretation of the dream, about the thoughts that were in the King’s heart, not a vision which contains multiple prophecies.

Dan 2:26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

4. Pharaoh's dream, one vision, contains seven years of abundance, followed by an additional seven years of famine.
It contained two prophecies, one of abundance lasting seven years, one of famine lasting a second seven years.
Total years, 14.

What sayeth the scripture? Scripture says that Pharaoh had a dream in which he saw fat and thin cows together. A dream with two scenarios but not two separate visions. Not only this, Pharaoh had a separate dream about seven full heads of grain and seven blighted and shriveled heads of grain. Once again, this is not two visions, it is a single dream with a specific interpretation not a vision which contains multiple prophecies.

Gen 41:15 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "I had a dream last night, and no one here can tell me what it means. But I have heard that when you hear about a dream you can interpret it."
Gen 41:16 "It is beyond my power to do this," Joseph replied. "But God can tell you what it means and set you at ease."
Gen 41:17 So Pharaoh told Joseph his dream. "In my dream," he said, "I was standing on the bank of the Nile River,
Gen 41:18 and I saw seven fat, healthy cows come up out of the river and begin grazing in the marsh grass.
Gen 41:19 But then I saw seven sick-looking cows, scrawny and thin, come up after them. I've never seen such sorry-looking animals in all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:20 These thin, scrawny cows ate the seven fat cows.

Scriptural evidence reveals a single vision can contain multiple prophecies.

I believe that I have showed why I believe this to be an erroneous statement from the evidence which you have presented. The following portion of your thesis is predicated upon the first part being correct. I believe that I have shown that it is incorrect so I will not address the following portion.

Going back to the original argument, because of what I have showed, I do not believe that Dan 9:24-27 contain multiple prophecies, but rather a single prophetic message about Daniel's people and the Holy City Jerusalem. This passage contains a reference to seventy weeks, and is further characterized by three divisions, seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one week, all referenced in this passage. Seventy weeks have been fixed to accomplish certain blessings upon both Israel and Jerusalem. I do not believe that the passage lends itself to multiple interpretations or that there are multiple prophecies included in it.

It is my contention that the precision of the wording of the scriptures refutes your premise. But I love you!

[Jay Ross]

Hello

It seems to me that a lot of our problems is connected to our "misguided" understanding of scripture.

Let me give an example, "What is our understanding of Daniel 7:2?"

Daniel 7:2: - Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.

Who or what are the "Four winds of heaven?" Who or what is "the Great Sea?"

Then in verse three Daniel goes on and states: -

Daniel 7:3: - And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other.

which begs the question, "By what mechanism do the beasts come up from the sea?", and if we understand the mechanism that causes the beasts to rise up from the sea, with each being different from the others, then we have a much better understanding of what is happening today.

Now Daniel is given an explanation of the four "beasts": -

Daniel 7:17: - 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.

which raises the dilemma that if the "beasts in Daniel 7:3 rise up out of the sea," then, in verse 17, how do they rise up out of the earth? The other question that must be asked is, "what is their role as a "king;" is it the role of a Regent who is under another? "

Also we are told in Daniel 7 that there are actually five beasts, with the "fifth" beast exercising influence and control over the "fourth beast," of Daniel 7:1-12, as well as being the dominate "beast" in Daniel 7:23-25.

Again in Daniel 8 we are introduced to the fifth beast of Daniel 7 when Daniel records these words: -

Daniel 8:9-14: - 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

The question that needs to be resolved is, "Should the 2,300 days in verse 14 above be understood to represent years in keeping with Daniel 9 where the "seventy weeks of years" are interpreted as being for a period of 490 years?

Now re-entering the Daniel 9:24-27 discussion with the above in mind, we need to resolve for ourselves how many independent prophecies are found in verses 24-27. It is my view that there are five independent prophecies found in these four verses.

In Daniel 9:24a we are told that Daniel's people and Jerusalem have 490 years to stop and finish their sinning and to repent. This portion of the prophecy, was completed at the end of the second age of the existence of Abraham's descendants. The end of the 490 years of grace, coincided with the coming of the Messiah. In the second portion, Daniel 9:24b, we are told of the changes to the redemption process that will occur after the 490 years of grace passed.

In Daniel 9:25 we are told that the Messiah will come after the completion of the building/refurbishment of the temple with the span of the prophecy being 481 years with the building program spanning 434 years. The building program mentioned in verse 25, finished around the time of Christ's ministry to Israel. The starting and finishing points in time are completely different to the 490 years of the prophecy in Daniel 9:24.

In Daniel 9:26a, we are told that after the completion of the building of Jerusalem and the Temple, that the anointed one, Jesus, would be cut off, but not for himself. He was cut off to complete the changes to the redemption/salvation process mentioned in Daniel 9:24b.

Now, in Daniel 9:26b, we have the dilemma of how long the land will remain in desolation after the coming of the prince with the army(ies) he was given in Daniel 8 around 280 years to trample the Sanctuary of God and His hosts. In fact the little horn beast of Daniel 8 had had up and until the time of Christ, two dominate armies exercising control and oppression over Jerusalem, with the first being a Grecian Army, and the second army being a Roman Army. Even today we are still seeing the little horn's armies maintaining the desolation of Jerusalem and the trampling of God's sanctuary some 2,000 or so years later.

So the question that I am asking myself, "Have I correctly identified the "Prince" of Daniel 9:26b?"

What I have learnt over the years of studying Biblical Prophecy, is that I cannot fence off any particular prophecy, from any other recorded prophecy when they are describing the same event(s).

Now when does the war, mentioned in Daniel 9:26b end? Are there any prophetic prophecies that may help us to establish when the "war" will end?

I believe that there are and Isaiah 24:21-22 is one such prophecy, where God will judge the heavenly hosts in heaven at the same time that he is judging the kings of the earth on the earth , and that he will then collect all of the judged heavenly hosts and kings of the earth and imprison them for many days to await the time of their judgement. Revelation 16:12-16 is another prophetic prophecy which speak of the time the judgement of the kings of the earth on the earth as well as Revelation 12:7-9 which speaks of the judgement of the heavenly host and their being cast down to the earth.

When the desolation of Jerusalem is over, and the 2,300 year period of the heathen Gentiles has been completed in full, then as Paul clearly states in Romans 11:25-26, all of Israel will be save. This is in line also with the OT prophecies which state that when the completion of the visitation of the father's iniquities on the fathers' children and the children's children has completed its full course, then God will begin to gather all of Israel to Himself.

The last piece of the jigsaw puzzle is when does the one week of years, in Daniel 9:27, occur?

This is where the 1,000 year "gap" comes into play. The judged beasts, the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, are imprisoned immediately they are judged in the bottomless pit along with Satan, and it is after the bottomless pit is unlocked and opened for the little while period at the very end of the age of the ages, is the "prince" of Daniel 9:27 able to enter into the solemn covenant mentioned in this verse.

Now have I presented an understandable argument/explanation of the Daniel 9:24-27 passage? Possibly, but I am sure that I have also exposed a number of question that I have not addressed in this post that may need clarification, for the reader as well as for myself.

Shalom

[shorttribber]

I accept the multi prophecy idea over the gap theory idea.

And so do I

Scripture is full of "type & shadows" of things to come - and it doesn't negate the fact that the requirements set forth to be completed in the 70th weeks were not fulfilled. They were ALL fulfilled in Christ.

I accept both..because both interact with each other...

Will explain in detail later today

Just wanted to add this link to my Layers and layers of Prophecy thread.

Just can't spend much more time in this thread, the posts are just really getting long and i think i've shared as much as i can about it.
For the Types, Shadows, Gaps and even partial fulfillments, i
'm adding the link....

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/vie ... rs#p573715

[keithareilly]

Hi Ready1,

Thanks for the feedback on what I wrote.

The more we talk, the more I realize how much we think differently. Kind of interesting.

My first career was writing software. We had to break things down into quantifiable pieces then assemble them back into a working whole. Once, I was talking to some friends and a lady came and asked me if I had the time. I looked at my watch and then told her "Yes". She was annoyed with my answer and picked up my hand and looked at my watch then walked away. As I was focused on the conversation with my friends, I did not "interpret" her question, I simply addressed it as spoken. Ever since then, I have not forgotten how important interpretation is.

I appreciate a lot of what I write is about quantifying things. Breaking things down, re-assembling them.
It may not be the correct view, but it is what I am and how I think. And because it is who I am and how I think , It is what makes sense to me and those like me.

I appreciate the differences you provide in you thoughts, I especially like the patterns.

Keith

[Ready1]

Thank you Keith, you provide a logical sounding board to a view that, while I do not espouse, I do understand. In this time of uncertainty I need to tell my friends how I feel. I love you and the many other friends here on FP.com.

[keithareilly]

John 13:35

35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”.

Not love everyone in the world, but, one another.

You are a true disciple of Christ.

[keithareilly]

I think I will say again.

One of the things accomplished, completed, finished, was everlasting righteousness.
While you argue it is not complete because the Jews are still rebellious,
It is completed for each believer in Christ.
This includes you!

Don't forget we each believer have everlasting righteousness and need not fear, for, it is everlasting.

Keith

[Ready1]

I think I will say again.

One of the things accomplished, completed, finished, was everlasting righteousness.
While you argue it is not complete because the Jews are still rebellious,
It is completed for each believer in Christ.
This includes you!

Amen! Yes, I have claimed the everlasting righteousness of Jesus for myself when I trusted in Him.The Blessing of what Jesus did for each of us on Calvary is unfathomable! The mercy and blessing that we enjoy, someday the children of Israel will have as well. What a day that will be!

All of us who are in Christ can make the claim that Jesus is OUR righteousness!

Jer 33:16  In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Don't forget we each believer have everlasting righteousness and need not fear, for, it is everlasting.

Keith

“Fear not, I am with thee, O be not dismayed,
For I am thy God, and will still give thee aid;
I’ll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand,
Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand.”

“When through the deep waters I call thee to go,
The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow;
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.”

“When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie,
My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply;
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume, and thy gold to refine.”

[shorttribber]

Hey Shorttrib,

Why don't you give a quick summary of your shorttrib view in light of this dicusssion.

Sorry Keith, i meant to answer this sooner but i wasn't at my computer.

I'll try to be as brief as i can.......

No scripture texts just bullet points.....

1. Christ fulfilled the First Half of Daniels 70th week during His Ministry.

2. Half of the 70th week remains to be fulfilled

3. The Elect will go through the entire great tribulation, ALL 3.5 years (1,260) days of it. (Wrath of satan)

4. We meet the Lord in the air at the Last Trump as defined in Rev 11.

5. The WRATH OF GOD is poured out Without Mixture during the LAST 30 Days of "Those Days" Spoken of by Christ.
It will be the 30 days that immediately follow the 3.5 years(1,260 days) in other words, THOSE 30 days takes the world to what is defined in Daniel as 1,290 days.

In other words also "Those Days" defined by Christ are "Shortened" for the Elects Sake....shortened by 30 days.

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Shorty -

Just a few questions on a few things you wrote:

1. Christ fulfilled the First Half of Daniels 70th week during His Ministry.

Why would only a portion or "half" of the 70 weeks be fulfilled by Christ - when He said "It is Finished" when He died on the Cross? (John 19:30)

2. Half of the 70th week remains to be fulfilled

Why are you uniting the final 3.5 years to the 70th week - is there a possibility that the 3.5 years reflects the type and shadow of what the prophecy of Daniel mentions?

3. The Elect will go through the entire great tribulation, ALL 3.5 years (1,260) days of it. (Wrath of satan)

Interesting theory - first can you prove with certainty and by Scripture that the "wrath of satan" is any different than the wrath that the entire Earth will experience during the Great Tribulation? Second - why do you call yourself "ShortTrib" if you have admitted that the Elect will go through the entire Great Tribulation?

5. The WRATH OF GOD is poured out Without Mixture during the LAST 30 Days of "Those Days" Spoken of by Christ. It will be the 30 days that immediately follow the 3.5 years(1,260 days) in other words, THOSE 30 days takes the world to what is defined in Daniel as 1,290 days.

In the aforementioned comments you made - is there a possibility that you are trying to have these verses fix a certain End Time Theory? Historical Evidence appears to indicate that the 1,290 days and 1,335 days mentioned in Daniel 12:13 have already been fulfilled. (Jewish-Roman War "Revolt" 66–70 AD)

In other words also "Those Days" defined by Christ are "Shortened" for the Elects Sake....shortened by 30 days.

Okay - when Scripture mentions "those days are shortened or the Elects Sake" - there is a different school of interpretation on what you have mentioned.

The different interpretation is: "If those days had been longer than 3.5 years, no flesh would survive - but for the Elects sake they are cut short."

You see - we can't have it both says..... either the Body of Christ (Elect) will go through the entire Great Tribulation as Scripture states.....or we have to identify what the term " those days are shortened" means.

Additionally, you have identified this 30 day period to be a time extended beyond the 1,260 days; 42 months; or 3.5 years that Scripture mentions. I notice that you didn't include the 1,335 days - can you please explain why?

In closing - Shorty as you know each of my questions have been submitted with the utmost respect - and only with the intention to edify the Body of Christ. I happened to believe that after the "allotted time" - or the Final 3.5 years, Christ Appears - on the LAST DAY; a bodily resurrection occurs; we are gathered unto Him; there is Judgment - and His Eternal Kingdom is ushered in.

I think it's just that simple.

[shorttribber]

Why would only a portion or "half" of the 70 weeks be fulfilled by Christ - when He said "It is Finished" when He died on the Cross? (John 19:30)

As has been discussed, that's a thread by itself...i say He said what He said because what He was called to do In the Flesh, as the Son of Man, He Finished.

Why are you uniting the final 3.5 years to the 70th week - is there a possibility that the 3.5 years reflects the type and shadow of what the prophecy of Daniel mentions?

No, i don't think so, the Confirmation was intended for seven years. And we are told in Corinthians that He Will Confirm US until the end. 1 Cor 1:8.
No, I do not see it as a Type or shadow.....i see the Confirmation to Abraham when cutting the calf in TWO Parts and the Smoking Pot and the Burning Lamp as the type and shadow. A type and shadow of the Grafting in of the Gentiles into Christ, Who was the True 3 year old Heifer Burned outside the camp as it says in Hebrew.

We will go outside the camp to be that Living Sacrifice and Testimony of the Gospel in That Day. We Will Have the Testimony of Jesus and Keep the Commandments Because His Mighty Word and Spirit will Abide in His Saints as never before in history....that's what i belive.

When the Great Trib Comes, So Will His Glorious Power Come to be Seated in His People......He Will Sit on His Glorious Throne, IN HIS TEMPLE (His PEOPLE, The Children of Abraham..Without Number and as the sands of the Sea in number)

shorttribber wrote:
3. The Elect will go through the entire great tribulation, ALL 3.5 years (1,260) days of it. (Wrath of satan)

Mr B wrote:
Interesting theory - first can you prove with certainty and by Scripture that the "wrath of satan" is any different than the wrath that the entire Earth will experience during the Great Tribulation? Second - why do you call yourself "ShortTrib" if you have admitted that the Elect will go through the entire Great Tribulation?

No, because it is the same wrath, See Rev 12:12
Shorttrib is because of the 3.5 years of Trib rather than 7 years.

The problem is Mr B. that you think the Great trib is Only 3.5 years (1,260 days). That's not true though IMO since Christ only mentions "those Days", he does not say, 3.5 years or 1,260 days...but "those days".

We then are to find out what "those Days" are that he mentioned. I believe "those days are found at the END of Daniel 12.

shorttribber wrote:
5. The WRATH OF GOD is poured out Without Mixture during the LAST 30 Days of "Those Days" Spoken of by Christ. It will be the 30 days that immediately follow the 3.5 years(1,260 days) in other words, THOSE 30 days takes the world to what is defined in Daniel as 1,290 days.

Mr B. wrote:
In the aforementioned comments you made - is there a possibility that you are trying to have these verses fix a certain End Time Theory? Historical Evidence appears to indicate that the 1,290 days and 1,335 days mentioned in Daniel 12:13 have already been fulfilled. (Jewish-Roman War "Revolt" 66–70 AD)

They are not there to "fix" my theory, No. They are just there in the text for us to determine WHEN they shall be.
WE are told in the text that they are for the Time of the End.
I have not seen any mention, in particular, that anyone can be certain of that the 1,335 was fulfilled during the first Jewish war. Everything i've ever read can only be defined as VERY Certain the war was Very Close in Days to 3.5 years. but no exact number of days is ever agreed on among commentators.

The best evidence i beleive for it being 3.5 years (1,260 days) is written in Rev12...the first flight of the woman. in the early parts of that chapter.

Okay - when Scripture mentions "those days are shortened or the Elects Sake" - there is a different school of interpretation on what you have mentioned.

The different interpretation is: "If those days had been longer than 3.5 years, no flesh would survive - but for the Elects sake they are cut short."

You see - we can't have it both says..... either the Body of Christ (Elect) will go through the entire Great Tribulation as Scripture states.....or we have to identify what the term " those days are shortened" means.

How am i trying to have it both ways? 1,260 is Shorter than 1,290.

Additionally, you have identified this 30 day period to be a time extended beyond the 1,260 days; 42 months; or 3.5 years that Scripture mentions. I notice that you didn't include the 1,335 days - can you please explain why?

I plan on explaining that in detail in my "Tabernacles of his Palace" thread.

In closing - Shorty as you know each of my questions have been submitted with the utmost respect - and only with the intention to edify the Body of Christ. I happened to believe that after the "allotted time" - or the Final 3.5 years, Christ Appears - on the LAST DAY; a bodily resurrection occurs; we are gathered unto Him; there is Judgment - and His Eternal Kingdom is ushered in.

I think it's just that simple.

Thank you of course, and the same respect is extended to you also brother

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Shorty -

Thank you for all of your hard work and due diligence.

The problem is Mr B. that you think the Great trib is Only 3.5 years (1,260 days). That's not true though IMO since Christ only mentions "those Days", he does not say, 3.5 years or 1,260 days...but "those days".

You're correct Shorty - Scripture does not give a specific time period for the Great Tribulation itself - however, it does consistently mention a Final 3.5 years; 1,260 days or 42 months - and the Great Tribulation is included in this timeframe.

How am i trying to have it both ways? 1,260 is Shorter than 1,290.

Because Scripture identifies a final 3.5 year period. Not 1,290 days or 1,335 days - which very honestly adds credence to the Historical fact that this portion of Scripture (Daniel 12:11-13) has already been fulfilled. I personally remain convinced of that. Not to mention if, as you have mentioned in your previous comments the Christ fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the 70th Week - then the numbers are not adding up.

Very frankly, the extra 30 days; and 45 days respectively, extent beyond the 70th Week time period if applied to a future 3.5 years - and has never made sense to me. Actually, I don't believe it can be supported with Scripture either.

In closing, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to present the various Translations on the other Thread for comparison. But there is a common denominator that I caught in most of the verses you provided in Daniel 9:27. That common factor was there were 2 individuals mentioned - not Christ alone.

At this juncture - I will still have to respectfully disagree with you and others who believe that the 70th Week has not been completed. Some agree that there is an entire Week Left; some believe that only 3.5 years remain left of the 70th Week - and I believe that the 70th Week has been completed in it's entirety - however, there remains a future 3.5 year period of time identified consistently in Scripture - and it ALL concludes on the LAST DAY - when Jesus Returns.

[keithareilly]

Hi again Ready1,

For a few days now, I have thought about what else I could say.

John 12: 36b-43
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.” 41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Notice that in this prophecy, scriptures say the reason the Jews did not believe was because God blinded them. And scriptures says it is God who has blinded them and gave them hardened hearts for a reason: so they would not see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart for then they would be "converted" and God would have to heal them.

Why did God not want the Jews in Jerusalem to see and perceive that He sent Christ, who would bring in everlasting righteousness into the world ?
Why would God blind the holy people in the holy city giving them hard hearts during Christ's visitation?
Why would it be prophesied ahead of time that he would blind them and give them hard hearts when Christ was present among us?

Why would God plan ahead, and inform us He planned ahead, to deliberately blind and harden the hearts of holy people in the holy city during the time God sent his Son to visit them ?


Keith

[Ready1]

Keith

Do you think that the following passage sheds any light on the subject? I think the clues are all there.

Rom 11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 
Rom 11:2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 
Rom 11:3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 
Rom 11:4  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 
Rom 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 
Rom 11:6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 
Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 
Rom 11:8  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 
Rom 11:9  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 
Rom 11:10  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 


Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 
Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 
Rom 11:13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 
Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 
Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 
Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 
Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 
Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 
Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 
Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 
Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 


Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 
Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 
Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 
Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 
Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 
Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 
Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 
Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 
Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 
Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 
Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 
Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. 

Tell me what you think.

[Ready1]

It seems to me that God is saying that we have the opportunity to share in the blessings of the Gospel because they rejected it. And he goes on to say that if we have the opportunity because the Jews stumbled, how much more glorious it will be when they turn to the Lord. So this is temporary.

Rom 11:12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!  

[keithareilly]

It seems to me that God is saying that we have the opportunity to share in the blessings of the Gospel because they rejected it. And he goes on to say that if we have the opportunity because the Jews stumbled, how much more glorious it will be when they turn to the Lord. So this is temporary.

Rom 11:12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!  

I agree. I have no dispute that at some point in time the Jews blindness will be lifted. Nor do I dispute we are given the opportunity to share in the blessings because they rejected it.

My question is:
If the people and holy city are supposed to be saved during the prophesied time period in which everlasting righteousness comes into the world, then why is that when God actually blinded them? Should He have not opened their eyes then, during Christ's visit, instead of blinding them ?

Is not opening their eyes during Christ's visit consistent with the holy people and city being saved during the time period when everlasting righteousness enters the world? And is not blinding them during the time when everlasting righteousness enters the world consistent with the holy people and the holy city not being scheduled to be saved during the time period when everlasting righteousness enters the world; but, instead being saved in some future period of time as described in Romans 11?

Keith

[Ready1]

My question is:
If the people and holy city are supposed to be saved during the prophesied time period in which everlasting righteousness comes into the world, then why is that when God actually blinded them? Should He have not opened their eyes then, during Christ's visit, instead of blinding them ?

Your argument is not with me, your argument is with God. Does it seem like it would have had to be this way? I suspect that for God to be Just, there has to have been a rejection of God’s word in the past, (His prophets), and His Word and His way in the Present. In spite of the incredible amount and variety of unimaginable miracles Jesus did, the Jewish leaders still said that the power behind it all was of the devil. Rejection does not come to any greater degree than that. Then too, there was that statement that they made…

Mat_27:25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!"

I don’t claim to know the mind of God, no man can do that, so I’m not certain that I can answer your question. I believe that the following scripture has some bearing upon your question, though.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

One word you used was "visit". When Jesus comes again, it will not be for a “visit” from my understanding. When Jesus comes in power and glory, every eye shall see him, every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and Jesus in turn puts down every form of rebellion against God. Our promise is that whenever we are taken up to be with Jesus, we are never separated from Him after that.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The promise to Israel at that time is as follows…

Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

It is my belief that there will be very few (by comparison) who will live through the seven year period (I would say by the time Dan 9:24 is fulfilled). Two plagues alone kill one half of the population of the earth. Every other plague or woe or trumpet judgement kill even more people than the portion killed by the two plagues. Furthermore, there is an uncountable number beneath the thrown who have been killed for Jesus sake. Isaiah tells us that when the end comes

Isa 24:1 Look! The LORD is about to destroy the earth and make it a vast wasteland. He devastates the surface of the earth and scatters the people.
Isa 24:2 Priests and laypeople, servants and masters, maids and mistresses, buyers and sellers, lenders and borrowers, bankers and debtors—none will be spared.
Isa 24:3 The earth will be completely emptied and looted. The LORD has spoken!

Furthermore he says,

Isa 24:13 Throughout the earth the story is the same—only a remnant is left, like the stray olives left on the tree or the few grapes left on the vine after harvest.

In this time frame the number of men left on the earth is like the few stray olives left on the tree after someone picks the harvest, the ones it’s to much trouble to go after. And the story is the same with grapes, the few left after the pickers have gone through and harvested… the ones that the bunch is so small it is not worth the effort to pick.
I have 9 olives and 6 grapes. I know what I am talking about.

Maybe this is just musing about your question...
Here's a foolish aside: Any guesses on how many people will be left on the earth to enter the millennium after the Trib and the Sheep/Goat judgements?

[keithareilly]

Hi again Ready1,

I asked those same questions, which I asked of you, to myself a long time ago.

God blinding the Holy People and the Holy City during Christ's visit was to ensure the holy people and city would bring in Everlasting righteousness by crucifying Christ. After, I understood that, then I thought about the other objectives listed.

Had the holy people and city: seen, perceived, understood; they would not have crucified Christ and would not have:
1) Brought in everlasting righteousness,
2) Make an end for sins,
3) Make reconciliation for iniquity,
4) Anoint the most holy,
5) Finish (complete) their sin - finishing something is not stopping, it is completing.

The only one remaining goal is: Seal up Vision and Prophecy.
I really do not have a good explanation for that one. Closest thing I can think of is like writing a letter then sending it to the recipient. One doesn't seal the letter in the envelope, or place a wax seal upon it, until after the letter is finished. Christ came to fulfill the law and the prophets (Matt 5:17); So, when Christ lived then died, the law and prophets had been fulfilled, completed, and perhaps sealed, like a finished letter is sealed. But again, I really don't know for certain about this one.

What I do see is consistency in scripture about the 70 week period being about the Jew's and Jerusalem's role in accomplishing the objectives of Dan 9:24; their role was to crucify Christ, not repent, for, Salvation is from the Jews.

Keith

[Ready1]

Keith, I would like to ask you the same question that I asked Mr Baldy earlier. His answer was lengthy but came out to be a solid NO.

Read back through what this passage has said and tell me this. Can God literally fulfill exactly what he has said in this passage without modification or explanation from anyone else? Can he do exactly what His words say?

I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?

[keithareilly]

Keith, I would like to ask you the same question that I asked Mr Baldy earlier. His answer was lengthy but came out to be a solid NO.

Read back through what this passage has said and tell me this. Can God literally fulfill exactly what he has said in this passage without modification or explanation from anyone else? Can he do exactly what His words say?

I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?

Oh, Yes, most definitely He can; He already has.

That was my response earlier when I pointed out about where scripture talks about people who have, in their lives on earth, experienced "an end to sin". If there is any definition of a "natural literal component", then experiencing "an end to sin" in ones life is certainly an example of "literally" experiencing a "component" of the objectives in Daniel 9:24, here, in this "natural" life.

So, Oh Yes, I agree, He can, and already has, literally, accomplished each listed component, in this natural world.

Hopefully, I understood your question.


Keith

[Ready1]

Keith, I would like to ask you the same question that I asked Mr Baldy earlier. His answer was lengthy but came out to be a solid NO.

Read back through what this passage has said and tell me this. Can God literally fulfill exactly what he has said in this passage without modification or explanation from anyone else? Can he do exactly what His words say?

I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?

Oh, Yes, most definitely He can; He already has.

That was my response earlier when I pointed out about where scripture talks about people who have, in their lives on earth, experienced "an end to sin". If there is any definition of a "natural literal component", then experiencing "an end to sin" in ones life is certainly an example of "literally" experiencing a "component" of the objectives in Daniel 9:24, here, in this "natural" life.

So, Oh Yes, I agree, He can, and already has, literally, accomplished each listed component, in this natural world.

Hopefully, I understood your question.


Keith

I think I would say that while you have answered on an individual level, my question would be more on a corporate level.

So to clarify the question I might state it like these three examples...

1) Do you foresee a time on the earth when there will be no more rebellion against God in any of Daniel's Jewish brethren or even any to be found within the walls of Daniel's holy city, Jerusalem. Since that is what I understand Gabriel to be revealing to Daniel, I would answer a resounding YES to this question. Can you?

2) Furthermore can you envision a time that God will have put an end to all their sin upon the earth? Both for Daniels people and within the confines of the Holy City, Jerusalem?

3) Is there a time coming upon the earth when you would see everlasting righteousness being the response of all, both Daniels people and the City of Jerusalem?


Since I see these as the literal meaning of what Gabriel has said, maybe now you have a better idea what I am asking when I ask

Can God literally fulfill exactly what he has said in this passage without modification or explanation from anyone else? Can he do exactly what His words say?

I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?

Dan 9:24 "A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

[keithareilly]

Ready1 write ...

1) Do you foresee a time on the earth when there will be no more rebellion against God in any of Daniel's Jewish brethren or even any to be found within the walls of Daniel's holy city, Jerusalem. Since that is what I understand Gabriel to be revealing to Daniel, I would answer a resounding YES to this question. Can you?

2) Furthermore can you envision a time that God will have put an end to all their sin upon the earth? Both for Daniels people and within the confines of the Holy City, Jerusalem?

3) Is there a time coming upon the earth when you would see everlasting righteousness being the response of all, both Daniels people and the City of Jerusalem?


Since I see these as the literal meaning of what Gabriel has said, maybe now you have a better idea what I am asking when I ask

The only time I see sin removed as a whole is Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Do I think the blindness God put on the Jews will be removed before that happens? Yes.
I also think the Jews returning to Israel marks the process as having already started.
Even though I see these things, I do not see them as part of Daniel 9:24. But, I do see them elsewhere.

John 3:19-21
19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

God seems to want us to choose him, not force us to choose him.
Eventually, when Rev 21 comes about, the option, described in John 3:19-21, will no longer be available.
I have read about the millennial kingdom and that after 1000 years Satan rises again.
While I cannot tell you what that is, I can say, that Satan rising after the 1000 years, means rebellion has not yet ceased, even during the 1000 years time frame. Consequently I do not see the end of rebellion until Rev 21.
Adam brought sin into this world, until God makes all things new, sin remains.

Please remember I do not have an end times theory.
I have just stated what I see as the big picture.

Hope this answers your question.

Keith
Edited.

[Ready1]

Yes it does.

[keithareilly]

And how do you view my answer? Did I answer "Yes" or did I answer "No" to your question.
I think I answered "Yes"; unfortunately, I do not know if you see "Yes" as my answer.

We are very different in our views.
I apologize I do not grasp your view sufficiently to be certain I comprehend what you intend to communicate.

Keith

[Ready1]

And how do you view my answer? Did I answer "Yes" or did I answer "No" to your question.
I think I answered "Yes"; unfortunately, I do not know if you see "Yes" as my answer.

We are very different in our views.
I apologize I do not grasp your view sufficiently to be certain I comprehend what you intend to communicate.

Keith

I have thought all day of how to answer your question. I will agree that our viewpoints are very different and I recognize that it is difficult to properly communicate without seeing as you do. But I will try.

If I understand your answer, you would see the answer to my questions as pertaining to the post-Great White Throne period. I see this as a part of the Eternal period. Maybe you do too. And while I recognize that the answer to my questions will also be a part of the eternal, I think that the literal fulfillment of this prophecy given by Gabriel occurs when Jesus comes to rule and reign upon the earth for 1000 years. That is why I see a literal fulfillment of Dan 9:24. (I forget if you see the 1000 years literally or see it figuratively). So I would see your answer as No.

I think that is all I will say about that. I am now going to give you scriptures that I believe support the viewpoint I have set forth on Dan 9:24. I will only give you just a few, but not at all exhaustive, but these are my reasons. If you look at context, I believe that they are all supportive of future fulfillment. i.e. they haven't happened yet. I will make this two posts.

[Ready1]

Dan 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

to finish the transgression,

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

and to make an end of sins,

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.

and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

Isa 33:5 The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness.
Isa 1:27  Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Jer 33:16  In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

and to seal up the vision and prophecy,

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

and to anoint the most Holy.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

[Mark F]

Dan 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

to finish the transgression,

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

and to make an end of sins,

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

Isa 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.

and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

Isa 33:5 The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness.
Isa 1:27  Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Jer 33:16  In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

and to seal up the vision and prophecy,

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

and to anoint the most Holy.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

[Mark F]

Ready1,
While considering that Daniel 9 24- is a prophecy given to Daniel concerning his people and the city of Jerusalem I have read (I cannot recall by whom) Jesus must be crucified within the time frame of the 70 week, as you and I believe that the text declares that He was crucified after the 69th week but before the beginning of the 70th.

The idea of a gap of time between words and or sentences, thoughts, etc., is not unheard of in Scripture, I believe that there are quite a few, upwards of twenty-four I believe, but that would be for a new thread.

If we look at the Scripture as a whole NT and OT we see that God has worked through the Hebrew people to reveal His plans and purposes, and demonstrating Himself by giving them a nation, land, and many other things if they would be obedient and to trust and worship Him and Him alone.

God also revealed His plans to the prophets that are yet to be totally fulfilled and their fulfillment is centered around the Land of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, with THE LORD as there God and Savior. He gave them the promises through many prophets but Daniel was beloved, according Gabriel and God gave him prophecies unlike the other prophets.

But as Peter wrote, they prophesied about the mystery of Christ but could not fully understand it.

1Pe 1:10  Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 
1Pe 1:11  searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 
1Pe 1:12  To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

But we see Christ and His great salvation because God did it in view of all to see so He could not be accused of looking the other way at the sin of the past when He justified men.

Rom 3:21  But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 
Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 
Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 
Rom 3:24  being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 
Rom 3:25  whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 
Rom 3:26  to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 

But God had more than Daniel, his people, and the city of Jerusalem in mind in what He would accomplish on the cross. I expect that may be a reason for the Christ being crucified outside of the seventy weeks. In Hebrews we can see in Scripture the listing of different peoples and groups, God has plans for them all, but we can see that they are different plans and destinies, but that Christ accomplishes it all.

In Hebrews we see the contrasts of old and new, good, better, and best, etc. My Bible has a heading in Hebrews at chapter 12:18 - "The believer-priest does not come to Mt Sinai (the law) but to Mt Zion (the Gospel)"

Heb 12:18  For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 
Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 
Heb 12:20  (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW." 
Heb 12:21  And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.") 
Heb 12:22  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 
Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 
Heb 12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. 

Not the differences here:
Innumerable company of angels
General assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered on heaven
God the Judge of all
The spirits of just men made perfect
Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant

God has different plans and destinies for different people and groups.

Now on to the New Testament. As Gabriel told us Daniel was "greatly beloved" in 9:23, we also read that John was the disciple whom Jesus loved and it was to John that Jesus gave the Revelation to the Churches of what was yet to come.

The revelation given to the newly revealed Church is fundamentally different than that of the revelation given to Daniel, his people, and its centering around the land. The revelation given to the Churches contains no such promises of restoring to us a land, or the finishing of any transgression, or making the end of sin, etc, this has all been accomplished by Jesus and we are told to trust in Him, repent, keep our testimony, do not deny Him, and more.

What God accomplished in Christ was not solely for Daniel and his people, and for the land, but was also for the Church and for His work to be outside the seventy weeks, and for the stopping after the sixty-nine while God calls out a people for His Church can be seen in Scripture....the failure to see God doing this causes confusion IMO.

My dilemma is for what purpose would God subject the Church to the Great Tribulation. It cannot be to refine them and to purify them, that we are in Christ is to have perfect standing with God, our actions will surely have different responses from God but I am unconvinced we will be sent to the GT for it, that will be handled at the judgement seat of Christ.

Jesus told the disciples they would sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel

So my point I suppose is that to understand what will be the destiny of the Church is to remember God gave Daniel His plans for Israel, and it is centered on what they do with Christ. They can join the Church or if they happen to be living in the seventieth week maybe they are are included in the 1/3 that survive what Jesus Revelation to the Church describes will happen at that time. It just seems to me we have our ideas and its either or, not both.

[Ready1]

Thank you, Mark F. We are definitely on the same page.

Here is an aside. When I see the statement "It is finished" used as a proof text for Dan 9:24 I end up thinking things like:

1) But Jesus came to provide redemption for the whole world.
2) And His blood was efficient to save everyone.
3) His sacrifice was available for the justification of all.
4) The propitiation that scripture speaks of was ordained by God to appease his wrath upon all sin.
5) Any man can receive these fabulous blessings through faith.

And then I also think things like:

1) His incarnation, life, death, burial, and resurrection were about so much more than the Jews.
2) They were about the whole world.
3) God's plan, while offered first to the Jew, is so much bigger than the Jew.
4) If Jesus coming to the earth was about fulfilling Dan 9:24 then why would he need to come back another time to accomplish Jewish things that he did not finish?
5) It wasn't about the Jews and Jerusalem.


So my conclusion is that when Jesus said "It is finished" he was speaking of the work of redemption upon the cross in which he was offered as a sacrifice for the sin of the whole world, past, present, future. That work was complete, not all prophecy from all time periods.

The following chapter captures it all and since this is Easter weekend, I will post it as a wonderful passage that tells of what God would accomplish through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. I will share it in KJV because I love the poetic language that it speaks. If it doesn't speak to your heart, check it out in another version.

Isa 53:1  Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 
Isa 53:2  For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 
Isa 53:3  He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 
Isa 53:4  Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 
Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 
Isa 53:8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 
Isa 53:9  And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 
Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 
Isa 53:11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 
Isa 53:12  Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 

Isa 53:8 ...and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living:

Psa 22:30  A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 

One of the little beauties of scripture. I'm in Psa 22...