Daniel 9:24-27

Where anyone can ask or answer a question.

Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:05 pm

Daniel 9:24-27

I find it interesting that after each period that Gabriel revealed to Daniel, Gabriel told Daniel that certain things would happen. Daniel 9:24-27 is the passage that we all look at. I have chosen to begin at Daniel 9:25 and end with Dan 9:24.

Hopefully this is in the right area. You can take potshots at it, but this is my understanding of Dan 9:24-27. I may or may not respond.

(KJV) Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


1. Gabriel says that this time period begins with the commandment to restore and build (many versions use "rebuild") Jerusalem. This had to occur when Israel was captive in Babylon and since it had not happened at the time that Gabriel shared it with Daniel, this is a prophetic passage to Daniel.
Prophecy #1

2. Gabriel also divides the period into two periods at this point, a period of "seven weeks" (of years), and a period of "sixty-two weeks" (of years).

3. Then he goes back and shares that the rebuild included the street and the wall surrounding Jerusalem. He also shares that they encountered heavy opposition. It is my understanding that this happened in the "seven weeks" or forty-nine years after the commandment to restore and rebuild. This is also prophecy from Gabriel given to Daniel.
Prophecy #2

4. Gabriel shares more, however. He shares a second time marker in this passage. He says that from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming Messiah would be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks. So as the passage reads, it would indicate that there is a period from the rebuild command to the Messiah of sixty-nine weeks which are inclusive of the initial seven weeks. This is a third prophecy given through Gabriel to Daniel.
Prophecy #3

Here are two versions of Dan 9:26.

(KJV) Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(MKJV) And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.


5. Gabriel gives the next time marker in Dan 9:26. He says that after the completion of the sixty-two weeks, which we know come after the seven weeks, Messiah will be “cut off” or killed.
Prophecy #4

6. Gabriel then shares that after the Messiah is killed, after week sixty-nine, the people of a ruler who will sometime come, will destroy both the city and the Temple. He further indicates that until “the end” there will be war and desolation for this City and people. He calls it “desolation” and likens it to a “flood”. I might add here that if Gabriel had been instructed by God to reveal that this all occurs in the seventieth week it would have been very easy to do so. But that is not what occurs. He proclaims that the death of Messiah is “after threescore and two weeks” but stops well short of proclaiming it to be included in week seventy.
Prophecy #5

Here are two versions of Dan 9:27

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(GNB) That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."


7. Gabriel continues on with the culmination of his prophetic revelation started in the three preceding verses. It is all a part of Gods revelation through Gabriel to Daniel. He says that “he” or “the prince that shall come” will confirm a covenant with many for one week. Contextually, this is the mention of the last week or week seventy, proclaimed by Gabriel. The referral to the prince that shall come is probably the most disputed point of the passage. But “he” refers to the last mentioned person which is the prince that shall come.
Prophecy #6

8. Gabriel tells Daniel that in this “one week” or seven years, at the middle of the week or 3.5 years, the prince that will come will put an end to all sacrifices and offerings.
Prophecy #7

9. Gabriel also shares with Daniel that the culmination of the evil deeds of the prince that will come will be to set up some sacrilegious object that “causes desecration” until the fate that God has decreed will be poured out on him.
Prophecy #8

Here are a couple of variations on Daniel 9:24.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

(ESV) "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.



10. Gabriel’s opening statement, (which we could have placed at the top of this, but which fits well here) indicated to Daniel that all of this prophetic revelation has to do with “thy people” and “thy holy city”. Who are Daniel’s people? The Jewish nation who has been delivered into captivity by God. What is the holy city? Jerusalem.
Prophecy #9

11. Gabriel then goes on to reveal to Daniel the fact that by the time that the seventy weeks are complete seven things will be accomplished. They are as follows:
a. to finish the transgression or rebellion or disobedience
b. to make an end of sins
c. to make reconciliation for iniquity
d. to bring in everlasting righteousness
e. to seal up the vision
f. to seal up the prophecy
g. to anoint a most holy place
Prophecy #10

After 7 weeks: Street and wall built in Jerusalem
After 7 + 62 weeks: Messiah is cut off
After 70 weeks: Completion of sin, rebellion, etc.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:47 pm

I am not in agreement as you know, but you have made good arguments . The dividing of the times is an interesting part also.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:23 pm

shorttribber wrote:I am not in agreement as you know, but you have made good arguments . The dividing of the times is an interesting part also.


That was kind of you! :grin:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:57 pm

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:I am not in agreement as you know, but you have made good arguments. The dividing of the times is an interesting part also.


That was kind of you! :grin:

Quite alright :grin: Just that we should all respect valid arguments. We all need to learn that people have valid reasons for their opinions. we should all be able to point to the strengths of other opinions and not just hammer away at what we see as weak areas in them.

For example, we can look to the writings of Irenaeus and Hypolitus as accepting that Dan 9:27 was referencing a coming antichrist rather than Christ. Both were writing very early, i think 120 AD and about 260 respectively.

Soon i will be starting a thread about Lukes gospel and the end times events....i believe many will find it very interesting. There are some things i just noticed a few days ago i think are very important with regard to some of the latest comments on a few threads.

blessings
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:05 pm

Ready1 wrote: Gabriel then goes on to reveal to Daniel the fact that by the time that the seventy weeks are complete seven things will be accomplished. They are as follows:

a. to finish the transgression or rebellion or disobedience
b. to make an end of sins
c. to make reconciliation for iniquity
d. to bring in everlasting righteousness
e. to seal up the vision
f. to seal up the prophecy
g. to anoint a most holy place


Just a question...…..

In the 7 aforementioned identifiers - have you considered that each of these have already been fulfilled in the Death & Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:42 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Ready1 wrote: Gabriel then goes on to reveal to Daniel the fact that by the time that the seventy weeks are complete seven things will be accomplished. They are as follows:

a. to finish the transgression or rebellion or disobedience
b. to make an end of sins
c. to make reconciliation for iniquity
d. to bring in everlasting righteousness
e. to seal up the vision
f. to seal up the prophecy
g. to anoint a most holy place


Just a question...…..

In the 7 aforementioned identifiers - have you considered that each of these have already been fulfilled in the Death & Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ?


I would never take away from you or anyone else the spiritual fulfillment of many scriptures and these specifically. But I believe that our God is big enough to be able to back up His word with action and do exactly what his words say without modification or interpretation by me, or by you, or by anyone else. So as I look at these seven bullet points, I will outline what I mean and then you can counter.

a. to finish the transgression or rebellion or disobedience:


Jesus Christ came to the earth and he conquered the devil, the ultimate rebel, and the one who knows no truth or obedience. In this sense, this scripture has been “fulfilled”. The only trouble is that in our world today, and in Israel specifically there is transgression, rebellion, and disobedience just as bad as it has ever been. What the scripture says is that seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion. Has that happened? No, not yet. But by the time the final week is complete, it will, because God says it will. So while I see a spiritual fulfillment component from the Lord Jesus Christ that we share in, I also see a natural component which will be fulfilled exactly as predicted and prophesied in Daniel.

I could go through each of these bullet points, so lets do one more.

b. To make an end of sins:


The Lord Jesus Christ came to the earth, incarnate in the flesh. God in human flesh. He lived a life which was perfect and without sin. He, in and of Himself, put away sin and provided a way for every human being to share in that sinless perfection through faith. In this sense, the scripture has been fulfilled. Once again, however, the trouble with our world today, and for Daniel’s people and holy city specifically is that sin is rampant and just as bad as it has ever been. And the scripture says that “seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city” to make an end of sins. Is sin done? No. Is it still around? Yes, now maybe more than ever. So while the Lord Jesus Christ’s suffering and death judged sin, it did not remove it. So while we share in the blessing and the spiritual component of this scripture, there will be a natural component where sin is removed from the earth at the end of this seventh week. Why? Because God said that “seventy weeks are decreed upon Daniel’s people and the holy city to bring an end of sin. I think that God is big enough, and literal enough to do that.


Now I will ask you a question. Read back through what this passage has said and tell me this. Can God literally fulfill exactly what he has said in this passage without modification or explanation from anyone else? Can he do exactly what His words say?

I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:27 pm

Ready1 wrote:I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?


I reasonable challenge.

Acknowledging this was intended for Mr. B., just wanted to add my two cents.

I don't think all of the things on the list are entirely fulfilled either quite yet, be they spiritually or Literally.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:25 pm

Ready1 wrote:I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?


Ready1 -

As I read your comments on the first 2 of the 7 requirements to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks - I want point out the reason why I asked you the question if you believe that the 7 requirements have already been fulfilled with the Death & Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. My response should answer your question.

First - I wholeheartedly believe that the Death & Resurrection of Jesus Completely Fulfilled ALL of requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. When Jesus died on the Cross - He said: "It is Finished." (John 19:30)
Jesus being both God and man Fulfilled the requirements both Spiritually & Naturally - in that He died a physical death as man - and subsequently raised Himself from the dead in His Resurrection. (John 2:19)

I believe in the responses you have given - you are looking at things from a natural literal way - and perhaps this is not the meaning of the Prophecy. The entire Bible points to Christ, who is non other than God in the Flesh.

Most believe that there will be a literal Millennial Kingdom at the Return of Christ - then a Great White Throne Judgment after the "little season" Satan is let loose to deceive the Nations of the Earth. Well if the 70 weeks will have been fulfilled at His Coming - how does one account for the Death, Sin, & Rebellion that is "allegedly" suppose to happen with those born during the so-called Millennial Reign of Christ? You see - we can't have it both ways....either it ends after the 70 weeks as you are implying - and respectfully the timing doesn't add up, or it was completed at the Cross & Resurrection of our Lord as I am suggesting.

So in your response to the second requirement of the seven - which I greatly respect but disagree with - I will say this:

When one comes to Christ his sins are paid for at the time of death. Jesus paid the price. That means He made an end of sin for the Believer when He died on the Cross. Again He said: "It is Finished." That means it' Done; Completed - no more left to do.

I will say that I once believed in a literal Millennial Kingdom; the literal "little season" that Satan is let loose from his prison; in which he is captured at the Return of Christ; bound for 1,000 years (Millennial Reign) - however, when I read the requirements of Daniel 9:24 and continuous study - I'm now certain that my previous interpretation was in error. I had to realize that Revelation 20 - and the Book of Revelation as a whole for that matter is loaded with symbolism and metaphorical language.

I could absolutely be wrong again. But as I have continued to study - I now believe that on the Last Day - when Jesus Comes; the believers will be gathered unto Him; Judgment commences - and that will be the End of the World.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:27 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:I'm now certain that my previous interpretation was in error. I had to realize that Revelation 20 - and the Book of Revelation as a whole for that matter is loaded with symbolism and metaphorical language.

I could absolutely be wrong again. But as I have continued to study - I now believe that on the Last Day - when Jesus Comes; the believers will be gathered unto Him; Judgment commences - and that will be the End of the World.


All of that to say NO to these three questions:

Ready1 wrote:1) I have recognized the spiritual component: can you recognize the natural literal component?
2) Can God literally fulfill exactly what he has said in this passage without modification or explanation from anyone else?
3) Can he do exactly what His words say?


Believing as you do, you should be able to shorten the Bible by about 30%, because the prophetic passages which specify exactly what and how things will happen in the future are only symbolism and metaphorical language.

I refuse to believe that! There is no way that God would give detailed specifics time after time after time only to ignore them. That would make Him a liar. And the scripture says

(BBE) Ro 3:4 In no way: but let God be true, though every man is seen to be untrue; as it is said in the Writings, That your words may be seen to be true, and you may be seen to be right when you are judged.


You are free to understand however you choose, but the gap between us Is great. I now understand why.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:49 pm

shorttribber wrote:I don't think all of the things on the list are entirely fulfilled either quite yet, be they spiritually or Literally.


While I have showed that there is a possible spiritual component, I would also state that that is a secondary meaning if it has any application at all. It is NOT the primary application. So what is the Primary application? We have to go back to Daniel 9 for that.

In Daniel 9:1-4 Daniel gives us a time frame, he tells what’s been on his mind, he makes a confession, and he has a request.

1. Daniel gives a time frame: This is when this occurred. The first year of the reign of Darius.

Dan 9:1  In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans, Dan 9:2  in the first year of his reign.


2. Daniel tells what’s on his mind: He has been reading Jeremiah the Prophet and wants to know more about what God shared with Jeremiah regarding the seventy years dealing with the “desolations” or making waste of Jerusalem.

Dan 9:2  ... I, Daniel, understood the number of the years by books, which came of the Word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. Dan 9:3  And I set my face toward the Lord God, to seek by prayer and holy desires, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.


3. Daniel makes a confession: We, the children of Israel, have not listened to you Lord God. Daniel’s confession includes all verses from 9:3-9:16 (I have not included all verses due to length) Confession: We have sinned.

Dan 9:3 And I set my face toward the Lord God, to seek by prayer and holy desires, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.Dan 9:4 And I prayed to Jehovah my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and awesome God, keeping the covenant and mercy to those who love Him, and to those who keep His commandments,
Dan 9:5 we have sinned and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from Your commandments and from Your judgments. Dan 9:6 Neither have we listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our rulers, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Dan 9:15  And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out from the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have brought fame to Yourself, as it is today, we have sinned, we have done wrong. Dan 9:16 O Lord, I pray You, according to all Your righteousness let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. Because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a curse to all those who are around us.


4. Daniel makes a request: His request is that God would turn His anger and fury away from Jerusalem which he calls the Holy Mountain of God. He asks that God will hear his prayer and cause his face to shine on Jerusalem and the temple. He asks that God do this for His own sake, because of his mercy, not for the sake of the Jewish people but rather because the children of Israel are called the people of God.

Dan 9:16  O Lord, I pray You, according to all Your righteousness let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. Because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a curse to all those who are around us. Dan 9:17  And now, O our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his holy desires, and cause Your face to shine on Your sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. Dan 9:18  O my God, bow down Your ear and hear. Open Your eyes and behold our ruins, and the city which is called by Your name. For we do not present our prayers before You on account of our righteousnesses, but because of Your great mercies. Dan 9:19  O Jehovah, hear; O Jehovah, forgive; O Jehovah, listen and do. Do not delay, for Your own sake, O my God; for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.



That is the context of the passage Daniel 9. Daniel gets a lot more information than he asked for in the following seven verses. Because this is the context, it follows that the Primary application of this passage is what God says to Daniel with regard to his confession and his request.

The next three verses bear this out. Gabriel comes to share knowledge from God about the seventy years that Daniel has asked about.

Dan 9:20  And while I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin, and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my cry before Jehovah my God for the holy mountain of my God; Dan 9:21  yes, while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, touched me in my severe exhaustion, about the time of the evening sacrifice. Dan 9:22  And he enlightened me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I have now come out to give you skill and understanding. Dan 9:23  At the beginning of your prayers the commandment came out, and I have come to explain. For you are greatly beloved; therefore understand the matter, and attend to the vision:



Dan 9:24-27 Since we have been over these verses there is no need to go over them again. But from them we have seen that God has expanded and revealed a much greater scope of understanding than Daniel had even asked for.

This information regarding Daniel's people and the Holy City Jerusalem is the primary application as derived from context and word meaning, (as I see it.)
Last edited by Ready1 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:36 pm

May I ask Why you skipped vs 4?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:38 pm

I think vs 4 is one of the most important verses in the entire chapter.
That's why I asked
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:58 pm

shorttribber wrote:May I ask Why you skipped vs 4?


3. Daniel makes a confession: We, the children of Israel, have not listened to you Lord God. Daniel’s confession includes all verses from 9:3-9:16 (I have not included all verses due to length) Confession: We have sinned.

Dan 9:3 And I set my face toward the Lord God, to seek by prayer and holy desires, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes. Dan 9:6 Neither have we listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our rulers, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out from the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and have brought fame to Yourself, as it is today, we have sinned, we have done wrong. Dan 9:16 O Lord, I pray You, according to all Your righteousness let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. Because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a curse to all those who are around us.


It was supposed to be in there and I inadvertantly lost it at some point or another. It is the most supportive of the verses and I am now going back to edit and add verses 4 & 5 to this passage.

Long and short answer: I blew it!
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:09 pm

Ok,good. I think Daniels prayer sets the context, and his first words in it are an extremely important foundation to it.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:16 pm

Next question.

When Daniel says "keeping the covenant and mercy", please tell me, which covenant do you think he is referring to, in your opinion
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:55 pm

shorttribber wrote:Next question.

When Daniel says "keeping the covenant and mercy", please tell me, which covenant do you think he is referring to, in your opinion


I will answer this short rather than long. If you desire to talk more, we can do that.

I believe that this is a direct reference to what is known as the Palestinian Covenant, referenced in Deu 29:1-30:10.

Which covenant do you think that he is referring to, in your opinion?
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:26 pm

The Law of First Mention is Paramount.
And the first mention of the Keeping of Covenant AND Mercy was Dueteronomy 7:9-12, And it is without Any doubt referring to the Abrahamic Covenant.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby keithareilly on Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:11 pm

Daniel 9:24 describes what Jesus accomplished during his visitation.
None of these accomplishments would be possible without his death and resurrection.
Because Christ's death and resurrection was required to accomplish these objectives, the Crucifixion and resurrection had to take place during the prophesied time period, the 70 weeks per verse 9:24.
Since Daniel describes him being cut off after the first 69 weeks, he was not crucified during the first 69 weeks; he was crucified and resurrected in the only remaining week, the 70 week.
And since the crucifixion and resurrection are required to accomplish the objectives listed in verse 24, the time period in which Christ was Crucified must be a part of the 70 weeks but not during the first 69 weeks, the only period left is the 70th week.
This is why the 70th week is historical, not future.

Here is what Christ accomplished and why he came.

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Many argue that "an end to sin" cannot have been accomplished because sin is still in this world.
Yet, there is evidence in the scripture "an end to sin" was accomplished.
To argue it was not accomplished is to say knowing the truth cannot set us free from sin during our life here on earth.
Yet, it is what Jesus said what knowing the truth would do for us.

John 8:31-32
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


In the following verses we have historical evidence that people were slaves to sin; but, they had been set from from that enslavement to sin. Therefore, their lives actually experienced "an end to sin". They were no longer the sinners they once were. Consequently, their lives on this earth which experienced "an end to sin" is evidence Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled and is, even today, available to all who want it.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
The "some of you" above experienced "an end to sin" in their lives. This is evidenced by the verse that says "And such were some of you". Because they "were" in the past, they were no longer at the time of the letter; therefore, they must have experienced "an end to sin" during their life time.

For those who do not want to "an end to sin"; we have this judgement which has and continues to occur.

John 3:18-21
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

All the things Christ came to accomplish have been accomplished; including "an end to sin".
We have the records of the accomplishments, we have records of people who have experienced the benefits of what Christ accomplished. They experienced in this world, "an end to sin" during their lifetime.

The evidence it has been accomplished historically is available.
It is not some partially completed thing. I has been completed.
It is finished. And we can experience it here and now in this world.

So, Yes, I recognize the natural literal component.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:55 pm

keithareilly wrote:Daniel 9:24 describes what Jesus accomplished during his visitation.
None of these accomplishments would be possible without his death and resurrection.
Because Christ's death and resurrection was required to accomplish these objectives, the Crucifixion and resurrection had to take place during the prophesied time period, the 70 weeks per verse 9:24.
Since Daniel describes him being cut off after the first 69 weeks, he was not crucified during the first 69 weeks; he was crucified and resurrected in the only remaining week, the 70 week.
And since the crucifixion and resurrection are required to accomplish the objectives listed in verse 24, the time period in which Christ was Crucified must be a part of the 70 weeks but not during the first 69 weeks, the only period left is the 70th week.
This is why the 70th week is historical, not future.

Here is what Christ accomplished and why he came.

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Many argue that "an end to sin" cannot have been accomplished because sin is still in this world.
Yet, there is evidence in the scripture "an end to sin" was accomplished.
To argue it was not accomplished is to say knowing the truth cannot set us free from sin during our life here on earth.
Yet, it is what Jesus said what knowing the truth would do for us.

John 8:31-32
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


In the following verses we have historical evidence that people were slaves to sin; but, they had been set from from that enslavement to sin. Therefore, their lives actually experienced "an end to sin". They were no longer the sinners they once were. Consequently, their lives on this earth which experienced "an end to sin" is evidence Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled and is, even today, available to all who want it.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
The "some of you" above experienced "an end to sin" in their lives. This is evidenced by the verse that says "And such were some of you". Because they "were" in the past, they were no longer at the time of the letter; therefore, they must have experienced "an end to sin" during their life time.

For those who do not want to "an end to sin"; we have this judgement which has and continues to occur.

John 3:18-21
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

All the things Christ came to accomplish have been accomplished; including "an end to sin".
We have the records of the accomplishments, we have records of people who have experienced the benefits of what Christ accomplished. They experienced in this world, "an end to sin" during their lifetime.

The evidence it has been accomplished historically is available.
It is not some partially completed thing. I has been completed.
It is finished. And we can experience it here and now in this world.

So, Yes, I recognize the natural literal component.

Keith



BRAVO Keith - :clap2:

:a3: AND :a3:

VERY Well Articulated and I personally couldn't agree more!
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:23 pm

shorttribber wrote:The Law of First Mention is Paramount.
And the first mention of the Keeping of Covenant AND Mercy was Dueteronomy 7:9-12, And it is without Any doubt referring to the Abrahamic Covenant.


Keep in mind that the Palestinian covenant is a land covenant which reinforces, reiterates, and renews the land portion of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Palestinian covenant takes nothing away from the Abrahamic covenant. Instead it reconfirms it and establishes it anew. The Abrahamic covenant, as you well remember, promised two things to Abraham:
1) a land, and
2) a seed.

This covenant was given when Israel was waiting to enter the Promised Land. It further reiterates Gods promises of the land to the children of Israel. And while God had miraculously delivered His people from Egypt to the Jordan River with all the trials and attacks in between, they still had a heart problem. God is calling again and telling them that as they go into the land they are especially to stay away from idols of other nations. In this covenant, God specifically foretells the disobedience of Israel and its awful results. As a consequence of disobedience. God foretells the scattering of His people throughout the nations.

Deu 29:26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: Deu 29:27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: Deu 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day. Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,


While the law of first mention is important, equally important is the fact that the last part of this covenant is a prophecy of a future millennial kingdom in which those who are scattered throughout the nations will be regathered from them and will return to their promised land. This is unconditional. This is what God will do irrespective of what Israel has done. He will restore Israel to the Land as he has promised, but furthermore, he will restore the hearts of a rebellious people back to Himself. This is astonishing. This is powerful. Here it is.


Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


So the fact is that both Daniel 9 and Deut 29-30 talk about this future time of blessing. And while you see it as a referral back to the Abrahamic Covenant, I see it as a referral back to the Land covenant which both reinforces and expands the Abrahamic covenant as well as references the coming Millennial kingdom
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:51 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Daniel 9:24 describes what Jesus accomplished during his visitation.
None of these accomplishments would be possible without his death and resurrection.
Because Christ's death and resurrection was required to accomplish these objectives, the Crucifixion and resurrection had to take place during the prophesied time period, the 70 weeks per verse 9:24.
Since Daniel describes him being cut off after the first 69 weeks, he was not crucified during the first 69 weeks; he was crucified and resurrected in the only remaining week, the 70 week.
And since the crucifixion and resurrection are required to accomplish the objectives listed in verse 24, the time period in which Christ was Crucified must be a part of the 70 weeks but not during the first 69 weeks, the only period left is the 70th week.
This is why the 70th week is historical, not future.

Here is what Christ accomplished and why he came.

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, land to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

Many argue that "an end to sin" cannot have been accomplished because sin is still in this world.
Yet, there is evidence in the scripture "an end to sin" was accomplished.
To argue it was not accomplished is to say knowing the truth cannot set us free from sin during our life here on earth.
Yet, it is what Jesus said what knowing the truth would do for us.

John 8:31-32
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[b] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


In the following verses we have historical evidence that people were slaves to sin; but, they had been set from from that enslavement to sin. Therefore, their lives actually experienced "an end to sin". They were no longer the sinners they once were. Consequently, their lives on this earth which experienced "an end to sin" is evidence Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled and is, even today, available to all who want it.

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
The "some of you" above experienced "an end to sin" in their lives. This is evidenced by the verse that says "And such were some of you". Because they "were" in the past, they were no longer at the time of the letter; therefore, they must have experienced "an end to sin" during their life time.

For those who do not want to "an end to sin"; we have this judgement which has and continues to occur.

John 3:18-21
18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

All the things Christ came to accomplish have been accomplished; including "an end to sin".
We have the records of the accomplishments, we have records of people who have experienced the benefits of what Christ accomplished. They experienced in this world, "an end to sin" during their lifetime.

The evidence it has been accomplished historically is available.
It is not some partially completed thing. I has been completed.
It is finished. And we can experience it here and now in this world.

So, Yes, I recognize the natural literal component.

Keith



BRAVO Keith - :clap2:

:a3: AND :a3:

VERY Well Articulated and I personally couldn't agree more!


I have made my case and if you have read it the two of you have rejected it . You have made your case and it makes no sense to me because it assigns no meaning to the words of the chapter other than what you chose to pull out. :grin:

My roommate in college was a member of the Church of Christ. Because the church I attended and held membership in was not called the Church of Christ but had another name, he felt like I was not a part of the body of Christ. We talked many times but it always came back to the same thing. "If you are a part of the body of Christ, why don't you call yourself the Church of Christ?"

For Mr Baldy and Keith, this always comes back to the same thing as well. After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. Seventy follows in sequence after sixty-nine without gaps regardless of what the scripture says. Therefore Messiah was killed in the seventieth week.

We are far apart.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:20 am

Ok, you can at the minimum agree that the ORIGIN of the keeper of The Covenant AND Mercy, is God.
Correct?
AND you should be able to agree that the ORIGINAL COVENANT AND MERCY was the ORIGINAL COVENANT By Promise to Abraham....THE Abrahamic Covenant.
As to the Context of the Prayer, And the Chapter,it is set, God Himself is the watcher,gaurd, protector (KEEPER) of THE Covenant.

You may at this point see my point :wink:

Now,let's look at a few verses that Continue to POINT BACK to the ORIGINAL CONTEXT.


Verse 12, "and HE HATH .....Confirmed....HIS WORDS!



Verses 20-21, WHILE Praying, Daniel Received Understanding ABOUT THE TIME of the evening OBLATION.

Verse 27 , AND HE (THE KEEPER of THE COVENANT AND MERCY) Shall CONFIRM , Shall Cause to PREVAIL.....MAKE UNBREAKABLE.....THE Covenant!


That IS THE CONTEXT!
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Apr 03, 2020 5:35 am

Ready1 wrote:Therefore Messiah was killed in the seventieth week.


Ready1 -

I'm not sure if you are reading what Keith and I both have written. We agree that Christ died in the 70th week.

Here are some snippets of what Keith wrote:

keithareilly wrote:Because Christ's death and resurrection was required to accomplish these objectives, the Crucifixion and resurrection had to take place during the prophesied time period, the 70 weeks per verse 9:24.


keithareilly wrote:Since Daniel describes him being cut off after the first 69 weeks, he was not crucified during the first 69 weeks; he was crucified and resurrected in the only remaining week, the 70 week.


keithareilly wrote:And since the crucifixion and resurrection are required to accomplish the objectives listed in verse 24, the time period in which Christ was Crucified must be a part of the 70 weeks but not during the first 69 weeks, the only period left is the 70th week.


keithareilly wrote:This is why the 70th week is historical, not future.


Here is what I wrote:

Mr Baldy wrote:First - I wholeheartedly believe that the Death & Resurrection of Jesus Completely Fulfilled ALL of requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. When Jesus died on the Cross - He said: "It is Finished." (John 19:30)


Mr Baldy wrote:When one comes to Christ his sins are paid for at the time of death. Jesus paid the price. That means He made an end of sin for the Believer when He died on the Cross. Again He said: "It is Finished." That means it' Done; Completed - no more left to do.


At this juncture - I'm not sure what your argument is :humm:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:17 am

Ready1 wrote:For Mr Baldy and Keith, this always comes back to the same thing as well. After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off. Seventy follows in sequence after sixty-nine without gaps regardless of what the scripture says. Therefore Messiah was killed in the seventieth week.


It was too late last night when I responded. Maybe this makes a little more sense.

For Mr Baldy and Keith, this always comes back to the same thing as well. Since the scripture says, "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off", and since they believe that seventy follows sixty-nine and that there cannot be a time gap regardless of how the scriptures read, then their conclusion is that the Messiah was killed in the seventieth week. And since, according to them, he was killed in the seventieth week, and it is impossible to have a time gap between the sixty-ninth week and the seventieth week, then all the scriptures which relate to the seventieth week must have been fulfilled as well.


While I reject their argument, I do understand it. This is the crux of their argument which they come back to over and over.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:37 am

shorttribber wrote:Ok, you can at the minimum agree that the ORIGIN of the keeper of The Covenant AND Mercy, is God.
Correct?
AND you should be able to agree that the ORIGINAL COVENANT AND MERCY was the ORIGINAL COVENANT By Promise to Abraham....THE Abrahamic Covenant.
As to the Context of the Prayer, And the Chapter,it is set, God Himself is the watcher,gaurd, protector (KEEPER) of THE Covenant.

You may at this point see my point :wink:

Now,let's look at a few verses that Continue to POINT BACK to the ORIGINAL CONTEXT.


Verse 12, "and HE HATH .....Confirmed....HIS WORDS!



Verses 20-21, WHILE Praying, Daniel Received Understanding ABOUT THE TIME of the evening OBLATION.

Verse 27 , AND HE (THE KEEPER of THE COVENANT AND MERCY) Shall Cause to PREVAIL.....MAKE UNBREAKABLE.....THE Covenant!


That IS THE CONTEXT!


Can you clarify what you are asking at all? I know that it is clear to you, but I am not certain what you mean. Help me out.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:39 pm

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Ok, you can at the minimum agree that the ORIGIN of the keeper of The Covenant AND Mercy, is God.
Correct?
AND you should be able to agree that the ORIGINAL COVENANT AND MERCY was the ORIGINAL COVENANT By Promise to Abraham....THE Abrahamic Covenant.
As to the Context of the Prayer, And the Chapter,it is set, God Himself is the watcher,gaurd, protector (KEEPER) of THE Covenant.

You may at this point see my point :wink:

Now,let's look at a few verses that Continue to POINT BACK to the ORIGINAL CONTEXT.


Verse 12, "and HE HATH .....Confirmed....HIS WORDS!



Verses 20-21, WHILE Praying, Daniel Received Understanding ABOUT THE TIME of the evening OBLATION.

Verse 27 , AND HE (THE KEEPER of THE COVENANT AND MERCY) Shall Cause to PREVAIL.....MAKE UNBREAKABLE.....THE Covenant!


That IS THE CONTEXT!


Can you clarify what you are asking at all? I know that it is clear to you, but I am not certain what you mean. Help me out.


Simple, are you able to recognize the Cotentext of the chapter now? It seems quite impossible not to imo.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:32 pm

Hello

Language is a funny thing, and if we were to list a number of events in our lives they would read as if they are sequential as if there is no time gap between them, but the facts of the matter are that there a time gaps between all of the events.

Let us see if this makes sense: - "I meet the girl of my dreams and fell in love with her, married her and she had my children."

Let us tell the story another way: - "When I was four years old, I meet the girl of my dreams and over a number of years I fell in love with her and subsequently when I was 22 years old, asked her to marry me. Our engagement lasted for two years before we married. For about seven years, we tried to have children before our first child was born, and another two children were born in rapid succession after that.

Both accounts above are true, but our conclusions when reading both accounts of the events of our lives will be very different.

Daniel, in 9:24 provides a list of thing that will happen, and without knowing the back story of the continual idolatrous worship of Abraham's descendants over a period a little longer than 2,000 years, the visitation of their idolatrous iniquities were about to be visited upon them as God had foretold in the second commandment, and recorded in Exodus 20:4-6.

Exodus 20:4-6: - 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.


Notice in the above passage that the length of the time period for the third and fourth is not defined and that the first and the second time periods is defined by saying that the iniquities of the fathers, plural, possibly of the first and second time periods indicate when the visitation will begin.

Moses also warned the people when he said this to them: -

Deuteronomy 4:25-31 - 25 "When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the Lord your God to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. 27 And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord will drive you. 28 And there you will serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. 29 But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. 30 When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the Lord your God and obey His voice 31 (for the Lord your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.


So, let us now consider the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecies, which can be broken up into five seemingly separate and independent prophecies.

The first one is that the Isrealites will be give 490 years of grace to repent from their idolatrous behaviour, because after that time period, the redemption process will be radically changed with respect to the salvation process which will be effected through the collective Israelites where one will die so that many will be able to gain salvation.

Now when is the time period of Daniel 9:25? Does it have the same starting point as the prophecy in verse 24? No. Do they overlap some what in their fulfilment? Yes What is the ending point of the 67 weeks of years? A number of years after the birth of Christ but probably before Christ began His period of ministry. As such, the 69 weeks of years does not cover the same time period as the 70 weeks of years in verse 25 as they , IMHO have different starting and finishing points in the Salvation story.

This then leads us into the Daniel 9:26b prophecy where we are told that sometime after the completion of the Daniel 9:25 prophecy, that Christ, the Messiah, will died /be cut off, but not for himself. Are we told the length of the time period that passes between when the completion of the verse 25 prophecy and when the verse 26a prophecy is played out. Can we draw the dogmatic conclusions from the silence contained within the verses of Daniel 9:24-27.

The starting point for Daniel 9:26b, we know from history, happened around 40 years after the Crucifixion of Christ, but we are told that the Prince who is to come, will be given an army to go up against Jerusalem to destroy it. The question that needs to be asked is who is this "Prince?" Is Titus a manifestation of his presence in Jerusalem doing this "Princes" bidding?

In Daniel 8 we are told that, "Because of transgression {i.e. Israel's continuous idolatrous behaviour}, an army was given over to the {little} horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered. This little horn is described as a prince in Daniel 9:26b, and he draws Titus from Rome to destroy God's Temple and His hosts, i.e. Israel, and to lead the Israelites into captivity in all of the nations of the world. Also in Daniel 8:14 we are told that the Little Horn beast will cause the Temple and God's Host on the earth to be trampled for a period of 2,300 years. This trampling began around the year 250 BC.

Now in Daniel 9:26b we are told that "until the end of the war," desolation is determined upon the Temple and Israel. The question that we must answer from scripture is, "When does the war spoken about in this verse end?"

Now since the Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is a heavenly host, then it is my opinion that Daniel is referring to the battle in heaven which we are told in Isaiah 24:21-22 and Revelation 12:7 ends at the same time that God will judge the kings of the earth on the earth at Armageddon in our near future.

If we accept that Daniel 9:26-27 are sequential in the order that they are written in these verses, then the prophecy in verse 27 cannot begin to unfold until after the Little Horn is thrown out of heaven in our near future. The Little Horn is the False Prophet in the Book of Revelation and in Revelation 13, it is the False Prophet, i.e. the little horn who , and after the False beast has been imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years, he insolently enters into a solemn covenant with many of the inhabitants on the earth at that time for seven years.

This is but a brief thumbnail sketch of what has/is happening at this present time, with respect to Daniel 9:24-27.

Shalom
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:44 pm

shorttribber wrote:Simple, are you able to recognize the Cotentext of the chapter now? It seems quite impossible not to imo.


I thought I did that very carefully, explaining in detail what I see as context. So while I may be really dense, why don't you diligently spell out what you mean.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:00 pm

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Simple, are you able to recognize the Cotentext of the chapter now? It seems quite impossible not to imo.


I thought I did that very carefully, explaining in detail what I see as context. So while I may be really dense, why don't you diligently spell out what you mean.

I would not suppose you are dense, but I thought I did spell it out.

I will just work harder at it then.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:51 pm

Ready1 wrote ...,

For Mr Baldy and Keith, this always comes back to the same thing as well. Since the scripture says, "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off", and since they believe that seventy follows sixty-nine and that there cannot be a time gap regardless of how the scriptures read, then their conclusion is that the Messiah was killed in the seventieth week. And since, according to them, he was killed in the seventieth week, and it is impossible to have a time gap between the sixty-ninth week and the seventieth week, then all the scriptures which relate to the seventieth week must have been fulfilled as well.


Actually, that the 70 weeks must be contiguous is not the argument.

The argument is:
1) The accomplishment of the goals of Daniel verse 9:24 are a part of a 70 week prophecy; therefore, accomplishing them must occur during the 70 weeks.
2) Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection are what accomplished some of the goals in Daniel verse 9:24; therefore, the Crucifixion and the Resurrection must have occurred during a portion of the 70 weeks.
3) We know from scripture he was cut off after the first 69 weeks; therefore, the crucifixion and resurrection did not take place during the first 69 weeks. The only week left is the 70th week.
4) If Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection occurred outside the prophesy, that is outside the 70 weeks, that would make the prophesy false, inaccurate, wrong.

Conclusion:
Therefore, Christ must have been Crucified and Resurrected during the 70th week, as that is the only portion of the 70 weeks remaining in which events, such as the Crucifixion and Resurrection, which accomplished goals listed in Daniel 9:24, can occur without breaking the prophesy.

It is not about arguing the weeks must be contiguous; it is about the evidence the weeks were contiguous.


Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:49 am

shorttribber wrote:Ok, you can at the minimum agree that the ORIGIN of the keeper of The Covenant AND Mercy, is God.
Correct?
AND you should be able to agree that the ORIGINAL COVENANT AND MERCY was the ORIGINAL COVENANT By Promise to Abraham....THE Abrahamic Covenant.
As to the Context of the Prayer, And the Chapter,it is set, God Himself is the watcher,gaurd, protector (KEEPER) of THE Covenant.

You may at this point see my point :wink:

Now,let's look at a few verses that Continue to POINT BACK to the ORIGINAL CONTEXT.


Verse 12, "and HE HATH .....Confirmed....HIS WORDS!

Verses 20-21, WHILE Praying, Daniel Received Understanding ABOUT THE TIME of the evening OBLATION.

Verse 27 , AND HE (THE KEEPER of THE COVENANT AND MERCY) Shall CONFIRM , Shall Cause to PREVAIL.....MAKE UNBREAKABLE.....THE Covenant!


That IS THE CONTEXT!



Daniel 9:27..........HE (Christ/Messiah The Prince) Shall CONFIRM The ABRAHAMIC COVENANT.
That the Abrahamic IS THE COVENANT AND MERCY ...AND IS The CONTEXTUAL SUBJECT OF THE ENTIRE CHAPTER
is , or should be accepted.

In other words, Daniel 9 : 27 is not about some peace treaty, it is About the CONFIRMATION Of The ABRAHAMIC COVENANT.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:51 am

Ready1

We view “Finish the Transgression” differently.

When something is finished it is completed.
If one starts building a house, then stops, the house is not finished, not completed.
Finish the transgression does not mean repent, stop transgression, it means complete the transgression.

The old testament describes the Jews continually rebelling against God, rebellion after rebellion, transgression after transgression. They would sin and God would make them subject to some other ruler and not allow them to rule themselves. They would ask for forgiveness, God would send someone who would rise up and serve God and free them from their captives, then he would die, and they would transgress, rebel again, become captive again, ask for forgiveness again, be set free again, this went on and on. At the time of Christ, they were subject to the Romans.

It is like building a house. The foundations were laid, the walls were built, the roof was laid. The capstone of Jewish sin was crucifying Christ, killing the son of the owner of the vineyard. Once the capstone was put in place, the transgression was finished, completed.

After it was completed was the cornerstone was put in place.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:45 am

keithareilly wrote:Actually, that the 70 weeks must be contiguous is not the argument.

The argument is:
1) The accomplishment of the goals of Daniel verse 9:24 are a part of a 70 week prophecy; therefore, accomplishing them must occur during the 70 weeks.


I have no problem agreeing with this premise. Seventy weeks of years as shared by Gabriel. Seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one single week.

2) Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection are what accomplished some of the goals in Daniel verse 9:24; therefore, the Crucifixion and the Resurrection must have occurred during a portion of the 70 weeks.


Our difference here Keith, is that what you see as accomplished fact, I see as prophetic, yet to be fulfilled, scripture. All of the items of this passage that you believe are finished, can be pointed to in our physical world today and shown in abundance (i.e. sin, iniquity, transgression, unrighteousness, etc.) Because you see them as accomplished or finished at Calvary, then you have to see the seventy weeks as finished as well. This also forces you to ignore them in our world today and seek another explanation for them. I do not see them as finished and accomplished.

While I understand full well that Jesus sinless life and his death on the cross of Calvary paid the price for sin, once and for all; and while I recognize that rebellion was judged upon the cross; and while Jesus blood makes atonement for every man, woman and child who calls upon him; and while I recognize that Jesus will one day be called “The Lord our Righteousness”; and while I recognize that Jesus will establish; the prophecies and visions of the prophets and stamp his approval as true; and finally I recognize that Jesus will be the ultimate possessor of the Holy of Holies or the Most Holy Place;

Yet that is NOT what this passage and prophecy talks about.

What it says is this:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

The problem is that while Jesus prepared the way for the final disposition of each of these points, they have not been fulfilled or eliminated in our world today, or in Daniels world, or in Jesus time, or in Antiochus' time. Daniels people are all still subject to sin, rejection, etc. Furthermore, Daniels city, the City of Jerusalem, is still subject to all these things, and according to the word of the Lord through Gabriel, Daniel's people and City will no longer be subject to them by the end of the 70th week. So what I am saying is that at the end of the Seventieth week, each of these points will be fulfilled in totality and accomplished by the hand of Messiah who will judge the earth and reign in power and glory.


In another point, you made a comment that "Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection are what accomplished some of the goals in Daniel verse 9:24." Please recognize that if a prophets words did not come true in their entirety they were considered to be a false prophet. So if each point of Dan 9:24 were not accomplished by the death and resurrection of Jesus in what you consider to be the 70th week, then Daniel was a false prophet.

3) We know from scripture he was cut off after the first 69 weeks; therefore, the crucifixion and resurrection did not take place during the first 69 weeks. The only week left is the 70th week.

While you said:
Actually, that the 70 weeks must be contiguous is not the argument.
that is exactly the argument you just made again.

4) If Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection occurred outside the prophesy, that is outside the 70 weeks, that would make the prophesy false, inaccurate, wrong.


Jesus death took place outside of the 69th week. It is you who have placed it in the 70th week. The scripture does not say that.

Conclusion:
Therefore, Christ must have been Crucified and Resurrected during the 70th week, as that is the only portion of the 70 weeks remaining in which events, such as the Crucifixion and Resurrection, which accomplished goals listed in Daniel 9:24, can occur without breaking the prophesy.


And you just made that argument again. We come back to it again and again and again.

It is not about arguing the weeks must be contiguous; it is about the evidence the weeks were contiguous.


I don't think you can support that because the evidence you use is your own logic, rather than the scripture. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:03 am

keithareilly wrote:Ready1

We view “Finish the Transgression” differently.

When something is finished it is completed.
If one starts building a house, then stops, the house is not finished, not completed.
Finish the transgression does not mean repent, stop transgression, it means complete the transgression.

The old testament describes the Jews continually rebelling against God, rebellion after rebellion, transgression after transgression. They would sin and God would make them subject to some other ruler and not allow them to rule themselves. They would ask for forgiveness, God would send someone who would rise up and serve God and free them from their captives, then he would die, and they would transgress, rebel again, become captive again, ask for forgiveness again, be set free again, this went on and on. At the time of Christ, they were subject to the Romans.

It is like building a house. The foundations were laid, the walls were built, the roof was laid. The capstone of Jewish sin was crucifying Christ, killing the son of the owner of the vineyard. Once the capstone was put in place, the transgression was finished, completed.

After it was completed was the cornerstone was put in place.

Keith


Once again, with this viewpoint you are ignoring the transgression and transgressions of two millennia of Jews and Gentiles up to and including today. You may hold your view, but to me it is like sticking your head in the sand and saying that it does not exist.

Look at another version to help discern what the phrase means.

Daniel 9:24

(BBE)  Seventy weeks have been fixed for your people and your holy town, to let wrongdoing be complete and sin come to its full limit, and for the clearing away of evil-doing and the coming in of eternal righteousness: so that the vision and the word of the prophet may be stamped as true, and to put the holy oil on a most holy place.
(ESV)  "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
(GNB)  "Seven times seventy years is the length of time God has set for freeing your people and your holy city from sin and evil. Sin will be forgiven and eternal justice established, so that the vision and the prophecy will come true, and the holy Temple will be rededicated.
(ISV)  Seventy weeks have been decreed concerning your people and your holy city: to restrain transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for lawlessness, to establish everlasting righteousness, to conclude vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
(NLT)  "A period of seventy sets of seven has been decreed for your people and your holy city to finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
(WEB)  “Seventy weeks are decreed on your people and on your holy city, to finish disobedience, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
(YLT)  `Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Loop on Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:52 am

Probably nothing to do with this but, I wonder if Isaiah 61 and Luke 4:17 and 18 has anything to do with the 3 1/2 years versus 7 year times...

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.


Jesus didn't read the entire passage but stopped in the middle ?.. yea, I figure I'm out in left field somewhere but my mind wonders sometimes how something might fit in... sorry guys , keep on its very interesting...
Psalms 91
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Loop
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:08 am
Location: WV

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:10 am

Loop wrote:Probably nothing to do with this but, I wonder if Isaiah 61 and Luke 4:17 and 18 has anything to do with the 3 1/2 years versus 7 year times...

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.


Jesus didn't read the entire passage but stopped in the middle ?.. yea, I figure I'm out in left field somewhere but my mind wonders sometimes how something might fit in... sorry guys , keep on its very interesting...
what you've mentioned is very important, and very relevant . I will add further comment later. Can't when using this phone
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:23 am

Hi Loop, It is my understanding that the passage which this reference looks back to is 1 King 17:1-18:46. Check it out because it was a tremendous victory for the Lord.

Jesus used it to remind them that "No prophet is accepted in his own country", and that they would not accept him either.

1, Elijah was a prophet but he was not accepted in Israel, and Ahab & Jezebel's hearts, along with the people of Israel went into massive idolatry. Elijah even believed that he was the only one who trusted in the Lord. There were 450 prophets of Baal and one prophet of the Lord.

2. During the drought that ensued because of their sin for 3.5 years, Elijah was quartered with a non-Jewish widow and her son in the town of Zareptha, a town of what is now Lebanon that was not a part of Israel. Jesus is saying that she trusted Elijah because she trusted the Lord while those in Israel did not.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:28 am

Beside the Fact that the Context of chapter 9 IS the Abrahamic Covenant, not some Random Peace Treaty referred to ONLY in Verse 27.....i have reposted from an earlier thread the Actual Hebrew Characters that HELP to PROVE the Covenant in 9:27 WAS IN FACT Christ's Confirmation of THE Abrahamic Covenant



.................................................................................................................................................
(this is copied commentary, not my words, only colored some) 9-21. Take me an heifer, &c.—On occasions of great importance, when two or more parties join in a compact, they either observe precisely the same rites as Abram did, or, where they do not, they invoke the lamp as their witness. According to these ideas, which have been from time immemorial engraven on the minds of Eastern people, the Lord Himself condescended to enter into covenant with Abram. The patriarch did not pass between the sacrifice and the reason was that in this transaction he was bound to nothing. He asked a sign, and God was pleased to give him a sign, by which, according to Eastern ideas, He bound Himself. In like manner God has entered into covenant with us; and in the glory of the only-begotten Son, who passed through between God and us, all who believe have, like Abram, a sign or pledge in the gift of the Spirit, whereby they may know that they shall inherit the heavenly Canaan.
(these next comments are mine)
We ARE BETWEEN THE TWO PARTS of THIS SIGN THIS TYPE/SHADOW of The Gentiles BEING GRAFT IN to This Everlasting Covenant. WE Have been Given the Sign/Seal/Earnest of the Spirit of PROMISE
................................................................................................................................................
1285 [e]
bə·rîṯ
בְּרִ֣ית
a covenant........
This first example is found in Gen 15:18
1285 [e]
bə·rîṯ
בְּרִ֛ית
the covenant.........
This second example is found in Daniel 9:27
.................................................................................................................................................
I looked in my Interlinear Bible that i have and found that These two Variations of the word Covenant are as Close to the Same as can possibly be when comparing them to any other variations of 1285.
Where i beleive the only portion of variable exists is that Christ who was Very/Truly God in the Flesh, He was Also Very/Truly Man .
This being the case, the First Example/Variation above is that God was making Covenant WITH MAN (Abraham and His SEED).
And in the Second Example/Variation above, Jesus (God/Man) "In the Flesh" was making Covenant WITH MAN (MANY of MAN to be Gaft INTO Him...THE SEED)
...................................................................................................................................................

This may be as close as we can get to knowing (by the Literal Hebrew Word) with any Certainty that the Covenant in Daniel 9:27 is in fact the Confirmation of the Abrahamic Covenant found in Gen. 15:18.

Please pay very Close attention to how the following scripture is Worded....
Gal 3:
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

.................................................................................................................................................
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:43 am

Hi Loop :grin:

I'm at my computer now and i am able to cut and paste from another thread to answer you also...

First, we are not limited , and most importantly, neither is God, to have the 70th week Absolutely Understood or fulfilled continuously.

Second, there is Very sound reason to see a Division of the 70th by the comparison of Several texts.

Third, A Division is Clearly Mentioned in Daniel 9:27.

Fourth, Christ Divides His Ministry (first parousia) from his second parousia when he Reads from Isaiah as recorded in Luke.......he Clearly Mentioned 3.5 years in Clear parallel references to his own Ministry when he tells them.....

Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. {But he did not add, "The Day of Vengeance"}

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them,......... This day........ is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

The mention of Three YEARS and SIX MONTHS was an Obvious reference to the time of His Ministry.

He shows the Division between "To preach the acceptable year of the Lordand The Day of Vengeance


The shorttrb position is that "The Covenant Confirmed" (Daniel 9:27) is that Abrahamic Covenant.
Please read below HOW Abram Received Proof OR CONFIRMATION of what God had Promised him...

Gen.15: 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I [am] the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
................................................................................................
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and............... divided them in the midst,............ and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
.................................................................................................
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.

.................................................................................................

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

.................................................................................................

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


These passages are very important Types and Shadows Mr. B., and Paul makes it Very Clear that Every Type and Shadow (in the Covenant and Sacrificial Sense) Pointed to Christ and the New Covenant.
That Heifer, is that Red heifer Type that was Sacrificed....OUTSIDE the Camp!

That Smoking Pot was a Type of the Destructions that should befall Jerusalem SEVERAL Times.
And the Burning Lamp was and Is the Type and Shadow of the Gospel Ministry of His People IN THE MIDST....BETWEEN the TWO PARTS OF That Heifer.

The Division is also A Clear Type of a Grafting In of the Gentiles INTO Abraham's SEED.

HOW SHALL I KNOW?....HOW SHALL THIS Promise PREVAIL (BE CONFIRMED) to me Oh God?, says Abram to God.....
Divide the Heifer Abram......... Judgment and Blessing will PASS BETWEEN the TWO PARTS With Me Abram.

This is the "Type" of the Confirmation of The Covenant........The "Antitype" was Christ and His Ministry as the First Part, and WILL BE Christ and his Ministry IN the Saints by the Word of THEIR Testimony during the FINAL 3.5 PART.

To CONFIRM the PROMISES made Unto the Fathers.

The Confirmation is 7 years....the Covenant IS Everlasting.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:50 pm

Loop wrote: Probably nothing to do with this but, I wonder if Isaiah 61 and Luke 4:17 and 18 has anything to do with the 3 1/2 years versus 7 year times.


Loop wrote:Jesus didn't read the entire passage but stopped in the middle ?.. yea, I figure I'm out in left field somewhere but my mind wonders sometimes how something might fit in... sorry guys , keep on its very interesting...


Hi Loop -

What you have mentioned is extremely important because it shows the consistency of Scripture. I want to provide something in a more practical way to answer your question, and support it by providing Scripture to further support the question you have posed.

Reading Luke 4:14-21 Jesus' Public Ministry Began:

Luke 4:14-21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Jesus’ Public Ministry

14) And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district. 15) And He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all. 16) And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17) And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

18)
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord
.”


20) And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21) And He began to say to them,

Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”



We know from the aforementioned passage of Scripture Jesus was fulfilling what has been prophesized in Isaiah 61 as you have mentioned. This is the point in which Jesus' Public Ministry Began.

Jesus Public Ministry lasted for 3.5 years - and in the 70th week He was crucified. As mentioned, previously His Death and Resurrection fulfilled ALL of the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. We have to remember what Jesus said on the Cross:

John 19:30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.



When Jesus cried out "It is finished," He meant "It was finished in the past, it is finished in the present, and it will remain finished in the future."

In closing Loop -

I feel the passages of Scripture you posted is even more evidence to prove that not only did Jesus Ministry begin in the 70th week fulfilling the requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24 - but how the 3.5 year time period He further refers to has consistently been mentioned and documented throughout Scripture as a very relevant time period - that will also be a future time period that is to come.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:02 pm

shorttribber wrote:These passages are very important Types and Shadows Mr. B., and Paul makes it Very Clear that Every Type and Shadow (in the Covenant and Sacrificial Sense) Pointed to Christ and the New Covenant.


Hi Shorty - :mrgreen:

As I was reading your response to Loop - I noticed the aforementioned addressed to me. :grin:
Not sure if that was actually meant for me or not, but based on our previous discussions on this matter I believe we are close - but have slight differences.

As you know - I do believe in "Types & Shadows."

I want to reiterate that I wholeheartedly believe that the requirements in Daniel 9:24 have been completely fulfilled in the Death & Resurrection of Jesus.

I think our slight difference comes in at Daniel 9:27...….

But I have question for you Shorty -

I would like to know if you have considered if Titus - who destroyed the Temple in AD 70 could also be the one who

"on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” ?

I am asking because if Titus is the one who fulfilled Daniel9:27 - and historically, I don't believe he can be ruled out; but this would also explain and actually fulfill what Jesus meant in Matthew 24:15 when He was referring to the AOD.

If Titus was the one who fulfilled the AOD prophecies in Daniel 9 and 12 - then students of Bible Prophecy sure do have a lot of Scripture to revisit. If he is - then it will also explain why Scripture has consistently mentioned a future 3.5 year time period - and it appears it has absolutely noting to do with the 70 weeks.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:47 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:I would like to know if you have considered if Titus - who destroyed the Temple in AD 70 could also be the one who

"on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” ?

I am asking because if Titus is the one who fulfilled Daniel9:27 - and historically, I don't believe he can be ruled out; but this would also explain and actually fulfill what Jesus meant in Matthew 24:15 when He was referring to the AOD.

If Titus was the one who fulfilled the AOD prophecies in Daniel 9 and 12 - then students of Bible Prophecy sure do have a lot of Scripture to revisit. If he is - then it will also explain why Scripture has consistently mentioned a future 3.5 year time period - and it appears it has absolutely noting to do with the 70 weeks.


I have a really dumb question for Mr Baldy and keithareilly:

Since, according to both of you, Jesus was crucified in the seventieth week, and since the seventieth week followed on the heels of the sixty-ninth week, how in the world could Titus have fulfilled the AOD prophecies? If Jesus was crucified in AD 32 (plus or minus) then the 70th week ended in AD 39. Titus didn't wander in until AD 70 or the 75th week. Unless there was a gap...gasp! How oh how can Jesus and Titus be in the 70th week together?

And if not Titus, who?
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:35 pm

Ready1 wrote:I have a really dumb question for Mr Baldy and keithareilly:Since, according to both of you, Jesus was crucified in the seventieth week, and since the seventieth week followed on the heels of the sixty-ninth week, how in the world could Titus have fulfilled the AOD prophecies? If Jesus was crucified in AD 32 (plus or minus) then the 70th week ended in AD 39. Titus didn't wander in until AD 70 or the 75th week. Unless there was a gap...gasp! How oh how can Jesus and Titus be in the 70th week together?And if not Titus, who?


Hi Ready1 -

It wasn't Keith who "asked" if Titus may be responsible for the AOD mentioned in Daniel 9:27 - it was me.

And to answer your question - which actually came in your own words, Jesus died at or around AD 30 - 32 and Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 AD which is around 38 to 40 years later. This evidence is incontrovertible - and the reason why I have asked.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:41 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:I would like to know if you have considered if Titus - who destroyed the Temple in AD 70 could also be the one who

"on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” ?

I am asking because if Titus is the one who fulfilled Daniel9:27 - and historically, I don't believe he can be ruled out; but this would also explain and actually fulfill what Jesus meant in Matthew 24:15 when He was referring to the AOD.

If Titus was the one who fulfilled the AOD prophecies in Daniel 9 and 12 - then students of Bible Prophecy sure do have a lot of Scripture to revisit. If he is - then it will also explain why Scripture has consistently mentioned a future 3.5 year time period - and it appears it has absolutely noting to do with the 70 weeks.


I have a really dumb question for Mr Baldy and keithareilly:

Since, according to both of you, Jesus was crucified in the seventieth week, and since the seventieth week followed on the heels of the sixty-ninth week, how in the world could Titus have fulfilled the AOD prophecies? If Jesus was crucified in AD 32 (plus or minus) then the 70th week ended in AD 39. Titus didn't wander in until AD 70 or the 75th week. Unless there was a gap...gasp! How oh how can Jesus and Titus be in the 70th week together?

And if not Titus, who?


:banana: :lol: :duel: :clap: :laugh:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:54 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Ready1 wrote:I have a really dumb question for Mr Baldy and keithareilly:Since, according to both of you, Jesus was crucified in the seventieth week, and since the seventieth week followed on the heels of the sixty-ninth week, how in the world could Titus have fulfilled the AOD prophecies? If Jesus was crucified in AD 32 (plus or minus) then the 70th week ended in AD 39. Titus didn't wander in until AD 70 or the 75th week. Unless there was a gap...gasp! How oh how can Jesus and Titus be in the 70th week together?And if not Titus, who?


Hi Ready1 -

It wasn't Keith who "asked" if Titus may be responsible for the AOD mentioned in Daniel 9:27 - it was me.

And to answer your question - which actually came in your own words, Jesus died at or around AD 30 - 32 and Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 AD which is around 38 to 40 years later. This evidence is incontrovertible - and the reason why I have asked.

I cut and pasted that from another thread Mr B, when we were discussing it before.

But as for the Titus question, it really has no bearing in the text.
1. Because the He in 27 WAS CHRIST.
2. The "prince to come" in vs 26 was also Christ anyway.
3. The people of the "prince" corrupted and thereby destroyed their Own temple
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:16 pm

Hi Ready1,

We have a fundamentally different view of Daniel 9:24-27.

I will give you my interpretation of "to bring in everlasting righteousness." and would like to ask how you see it.

When the Jews, in Jerusalem, the holy people and the holy city, crucified Christ, they, without realizing it, brought in everlasting righteousness. It was not that the Jews became everlastingly righteous. It is that through there wickedness, everlasting righteousness was brought into the world.

Consequently, I do not interpret "to make an end to sin" to be the Jews ceasing to sin. Instead, through their wicked actions of killing of the messiah, "an end to sin" was made available to all, just as everlasting righteousness is available to all. So again, I do not see the verses talking about the behavior of the Jews changing. I see what they accomplished by killing the son of the vineyard. What they accomplished was not their intentions, it was God's intentions, but it was city and the people who accomplished these things by killing Jesus. That is what I see this prophesy as being about.

I think this view is consistent with Romans 5:16 where the free gift is a result of the many transgressions, which culminated in the crucifixion of Christ.

Romans 5:16
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.


Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy [a]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [b]finish the transgression, to [c]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [d]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Edited for corrections.
Last edited by keithareilly on Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2195
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:18 pm

shorttribber wrote:But as for the Titus question, it really has no bearing in the text.
1. Because the He in 27 WAS CHRIST.
2. The "prince to come" in vs 26 was also Christ anyway.
3. The people of the "prince" corrupted and thereby destroyed their Own temple


Think you may be missing something here Shorty -

Even if the "he" is Christ in verse 27 it goes on to read this:

Mr Baldy wrote: "on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”


This portion of verse 27 cannot be describing the same person - even if you are saying it is Christ that puts an end to sacrifice and gain offering. There are definitely two individuals described here. So you may be correct in saying the "he" mentioned is Christ - but I sill question "IF" this is Titus who fulfilled the later portion of verse 27?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:48 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
shorttribber wrote:But as for the Titus question, it really has no bearing in the text.
1. Because the He in 27 WAS CHRIST.
2. The "prince to come" in vs 26 was also Christ anyway.
3. The people of the "prince" corrupted and thereby destroyed their Own temple


Think you may be missing something here Shorty -

Even if the "he" is Christ in verse 27 it goes on to read this:

Mr Baldy wrote: "on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”


This portion of verse 27 cannot be describing the same person - even if you are saying it is Christ that puts an end to sacrifice and gain offering. There are definitely two individuals described here. So you may be correct in saying the "he" mentioned is Christ - but I sill question "IF" this is Titus who fulfilled the later portion of verse 27?


Only One person is in that verse Mr. B. You are reading a modern version that has words added in that were not in the original Hebrew text
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6004
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:56 pm

keithareilly wrote:Hi Ready1,

We have a fundamentally different view of Daniel 9:24-27.

I will give you my interpretation of "to bring in everlasting righteousness." and would like to ask how you see it.

When the Jews, in Jerusalem, the holy people and the holy city, crucified Christ, they, without realizing it, brought in everlasting righteousness. It was not that the Jews became everlastingly righteous. It is that through there wickedness, everlasting righteousness was brought into the world.

Consequently, I do not interpret "to make and to sin" to be the Jews ceasing to sin. Instead, through their wicked actions of killing of the messiah, "an end to sin" was made available to all, just as everlasting righteousness is available to all. So again, I do not see the verses talking about the behavior of the Jews changing. I see what they accomplished by killing the son of the vineyard. What they accomplished was not their intentions, it was God's intentions, but it was city and the people who accomplished these things by killing Jesus. That is what I see this prophesy as being about.

I think this view is consistent with Romans 5:16 where the free gift is a result of many transgressions which culminated in the crucifixion of Christ.

Romans 5:16
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression [k]resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions [l]resulting in justification.


Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy [a]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [b]finish the transgression, to [c]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [d]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.



I agree. We have a fundamentally different view of Daniel 9:24-27. And while I disagree with you, you have explained it well enough that at least I can understand your argument. Thank you for that.
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2708
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Daniel 9:24-27

Postby Loop on Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:59 pm

I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain this to me and not make me feel stupid... Now I'm gonna do some more studying Thank you all.. This is so interesting..
Psalms 91
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Loop
 
Posts: 1941
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:08 am
Location: WV

Next

Return to Prophecy Questions/Answers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron