Baptism and salvation

by **Jericho** on Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:43 pm

I've always believed baptism is not a salvation issue, it's more of a confirmation. I suspect most Protestant denominations believes this also. To me, Romans 10:9 makes it clear “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

On another forum I frequent, the person used to be Protestant but recently converted to Catholicism. I don't know much about Catholicism, but I assume they believe baptism is a salvation issue. One of the verses he gave was “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”

Off hand I didn't have a good answer. He assumes "born of water" means baptism, but couldn't it also refer to a actual physical birth? Although, I'm not sure how that would make sense in the context. Any thoughts? If interested this is his post https://therightscoop.com/scoops-cathol ... orn-again/

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:09 am

Hi Jericho,

I was brought up in a family of 9 siblings and all as catholic as catholic can be. :mrgreen:

We were all baptized as infants but when at @the age of 30 I was born again and was baptized as a public expression or evidence of my belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We were never encouraged to read the Bible, but always referred to the Catholic Catechism. You can read the section on baptism here:

Baptism in the Economy of Salvation
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3I.HTM

I haven't read the post at the link you've provided but will do so shortly.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:41 am

Well, it's obvious from the numerous comments at that link that the topic of baptism there are various and numerous beliefs regarding the purpose of baptism. Even Baptists differ in their interpretation of that subject in scripture; i.e. who can administer it, when it should be administered, and whether it precedes the new birth or follows, etc. Some churches won't allow an individual to become a member unless they are baptized in that particular church and even insist on a second baptism as evidence of obedience to that ordinance.

It's a huge topic.

My parents had each of us baptized as infants as an assurance of salvation. Needless to say, it was a water "sprinkling" rather than an immersion. Next came the "first communion" at an age when we could understand that what we were receiving was the literal body and blood of Jesus. Following that at about 12 yrs. old, we were confirmed. That was administered by the bishop and upon a slap on the face came a reminder that we must be ready to suffer even death for our belief in Jesus Christ. It's my understanding that the slap has since been eliminated.

Apparently we had received a "measure" of the Holy Spirit at baptism with the "complete" indwelling at confirmation.

After 8 years of catholic grammar school followed by 4 years of catholic high school, having adhered to every required ritual and regulation, I wasn't even sure there was a God. Go figure..... Maybe a head knowledge from being taught there was one.

:bag:

by **Jericho** on Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:30 am

Thanks for your input Abiding. I finally got baptized several years ago, around 2012. Our church doesn't believe in baptizing infants, that it should be something they decide to do for themselves when they get old enough. I don't know if that is common for all Protestant churches, but Catholics seem big on infant baptism.

What is your take on the verse he gave? “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”. Do you think "born of water" implies baptism or something else?

by **extravagantchristian** on Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:14 am

I don't think "born of water" means being baptized.

Jesus was trying to explain a spiritual concept to Nicodemus that we have to be born twice, to be saved.

1. A physical birth
2. A spiritual birth

Because Nicodemus was confused about how someone could literally be born twice.

We start out in the womb floating in water, then the water breaks and we're born.

I think that's what Jesus was talking about.

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

The Catholic faith is all about following works and rituals to be saved, but salvation is a gift, and Jesus proved that with the thief on the cross, he didn't jump through any hoops, he just called upon the Lord and was saved.

by **Sonbeam** on Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:17 am

Hi Jericho,

I know you asked your question of Abiding, but the birth of water is such an essential part of the salvation process
that I thought I would join you on this discussion.

There are some inputs on this topic previously discussed here:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=71085&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=birth+of+water+Birth+of+Water&start=50

Blessings,

sonbeam

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:08 am

Of utmost importance (to me) is taking scripture in context. John 3:1 tells us who Nicodemus was...a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews. Washing was very important to the Jews.

For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands, thus observing the traditions of the elders; and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they cleanse themselves; and there are many other things which they have received in order to observe, such as the washing (G909) of cups and pitchers and copper pots. Mar 7:3-4

G909
baptismos
bap-tis-mos'
From G907; ablution (ceremonially or Christian): - baptism, washing.

G907
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

The Essenes who built a community in Qumran had an almost obsessive view of ritual cleansing and bathing. The mention of bathing, cleansing, water, pools, etc. throughout scripture helps imo to understand Jesus statement to Nicodemus. Also of help is this Ritual Washing in Judaism.

So with this context and understanding, I believe Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus of the water-washing he would understand and contrasting it with a spiritual washing or baptism. When Jesus spoke of water, the Jews listened; i.e. rivers of living water, water so you will never thirst, well of water springing up to eternal life."etc.

The contrast between water and spirit is spoken by Jesus here:

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

...and John the Baptist as well:

Luk 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The Kingdom is a spiritual kingdom which is entered into when the spirit is born in an individual. Water or baptism represents a cleansing of the body and symbolic of physical purity.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:02 pm

Just want to add that initially, Jesus doesn't mention water. Here's what He said to Nicodemus:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This naturally causes some confusion on the part of Nicodemus but he doesn't give up trying to comprehend what Jesus meant. He questions Jesus about how a natural, physical birth can happen a second time.

And Jesus then elaborates by adding the "born again of water" phrase and continues to elaborate by contrasting water birth/birth by flesh and birth of a spiritual nature. And chides Nicodemus by asking why as a teacher of Israel he does not understand the difference between "earthly" things and "spiritual" things.

Joh 3:12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

For me the most wonderful advice in scripture is this:

Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Mat 7:8 "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

...and I think Jesus sees the process of asking and seeking in Nicodemus' questions and knows that the spiritual (as opposed to the fleshly) truths will eventually be opened to Him as a result.

by **Jericho** on Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:06 am

Thanks Abiding, Sonbeam, EC for your input. It has given me something to think about.

by **Sonbeam** on Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:38 am

You are most welcome Jericho.

A scripture that sheds light on the fact that the birth of water is (or actually was) a spiritual birth is:

Luke 12:50
But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed!

And also the passage on the washing of the disciples' feet:

John 13:1-11

Blessings,

sonbeam

by **GodsStudent** on Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:08 am

I know our Father would not deny the Kingdom of Heaven and Salvation to a sincere person who didn't handle a "technical issue" such as getting water baptized when they/if they lived a life in pursuit of a sincere relationship with Him....complete with prayers, waiting on His response to their prayers, going to church, seeking time with Him, etc., etc., etc. I KNOW this, because I know His love for us and that believing on Christ as our Savior and living a life in pursuit of Him as the head of their life is what Christ wants with us. I am not being "flip" when I say this, just confident in the love of our Creator and Savior.
I think sometimes about "technicalities" that we, as humans, struggle with in respect to our Lord. One thing I often go back to is where scripture addresses foods to eat and not eat, it talks about a believer doing what he sincerely believes is called for us to do, and being confident in doing that which we believe scriptures are advocating for or not for us. I can't think of the particular verse, and am wondering if someone knows that of which I speak and would give us the reference?

by **extravagantchristian** on Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:12 pm

GS I agree. My grandma is 86 and last summer she prayed with me to ask Jesus to save her. Finally, after claiming to be agnostic her entire life. We prayed on the way to the ER and didn't know if she was going to make it back home. She did make it back home and she's alive today but it's hard for her to leave the house. I mean if she really wanted to be baptized she probably could but it would take a lot of work to bring her oxygen and climb up in the tub of water. She asked me if she has to be baptized to go to heaven and I told her no. I said God heard your prayer and you can be sure that you are going to heaven when you die.

by **GodsStudent** on Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:28 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:GS I agree. My grandma is 86 and last summer she prayed with me to ask Jesus to save her. Finally, after claiming to be agnostic her entire life. We prayed on the way to the ER and didn't know if she was going to make it back home. She did make it back home and she's alive today but it's hard for her to leave the house. I mean if she really wanted to be baptized she probably could but it would take a lot of work to bring her oxygen and climb up in the tub of water. She asked me if she has to be baptized to go to heaven and I told her no. I said God heard your prayer and you can be sure that you are going to heaven when you die.

What a sweet story.....it cheered my heart on.
I have a few family members who are avowed atheists and can't wait to get around me so they can poke me with their "So you believe in all that stupid bible stuff" stick. As I read your post, I thought of this one family member and wondered what his thoughts will be if he has an opportunity to know that he is possibly going to die. If he gets, say, cancer....instead of a massive heart attack......wonder if he will contemplate his avowed atheism any and perhaps reconsider?
This story of your grandma actually made me feel a little better.....about my own family members. I take no pleasure in their haughty attitude....and silently know they're doing it all wrong (life!)......
Sorry, with this post, I have deviated way off topic.
Back to topic.....
sorry again....

by **shorttribber** on Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:38 pm

Jericho wrote:I've always believed baptism is not a salvation issue, it's more of a confirmation. I suspect most Protestant denominations believes this also. To me, Romans 10:9 makes it clear “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

On another forum I frequent, the person used to be Protestant but recently converted to Catholicism. I don't know much about Catholicism, but I assume they believe baptism is a salvation issue. One of the verses he gave was “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”

Off hand I didn't have a good answer. He assumes "born of water" means baptism, but couldn't it also refer to a actual physical birth? Although, I'm not sure how that would make sense in the context. Any thoughts? If interested this is his post https://therightscoop.com/scoops-cathol ... orn-again/

Both sprinkling and Immersion was used in Baptism in the first century during the transitional period and ushering in of the New Covenant.

What Jesus IMO was saying is that "Born of Water" was a TYPE Used for Birth, Period. And Cleansing, in the general sense is Represented or symbolized BEST by Water, at Natural Birth AND Spiritual Birth.

When in the womb, the baby is Clean (Because of the Water), until the water breaks and then it becomes covered with Natural Blood, and naturally born.

Jesus, IMO was stating that the sprinkling, immersion, symbolic washing or cleansing of vessels and Persons means Nothing (AT Adult Baptism), if a TRUE repentance and Spiritual Birth Does Not ALSO Accompany that Action.

There is a perspective about Baptism that I had not considered before reading an incredible book by Samuel Worcester.

The book made me reconsider my opinion regarding Infant Baptism and Adult Baptism. After reading it, I must say that I am in agreement with the author of the work. Samuel Worcester has become my favorite Christian writer because of that particular book.

It may not be an easy read for many, but if you apply yourself a little to pursue on into the book, you will find it simply fascinating and will hardly be able to stop reading it!

Here is the link for reading.

Passing the prelims and going straight into the body of the work may be helpful...starting on page 15 is a good idea to get started.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... =1up&seq=7

by **extravagantchristian** on Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:36 am

The word "baptize" means "immerse". Sprinkling someone with "holy water" is not the same and I think misses the whole point.
I don't think that skipping a physical ritual would prevent someone from being born again spiritually.

by **shorttribber** on Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:06 am

extravagantchristian wrote:The word "baptize" means "immerse". Sprinkling someone with "holy water" is not the same and I think misses the whole point.
I don't think that skipping a physical ritual would prevent someone from being born again spiritually.

Absolutely agree.
Although in some rare circumstances, the full Immersion (under water) washing was not possible to perform. A little sprinkle was not used in the first century either. If a complete immersion were not possible in those rare instances, a Complete washing was performed.

Not One Work (Baptism) of ours prevents or allows Eternal life....It's by Christ's Whole Work Alone.

by **GodsStudent** on Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:32 pm

Recently I saw the "river" where Jesus baptized John the Baptist (In Israel). The water came up to ankles and below knees but above ankles in other places. Lots of people go there as a site that "must be visited" if you get to visit Israel. Certainly I don't see how anyone could be fully immersed in that place.....unless they laid down in it.
Also, here in the USA, they "use" water that has been "made clean" and call it holy water. It's in a little bowl by the altar.

Lots to think on with this subject....

by **shorttribber** on Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:16 pm

GodsStudent wrote:Lots to think on with this subject....

A lot more than meets the eye GS...that's one reason I listed the link to that book.

In a nutshell, the focus is on the Abrahamic Covenant and how Baptism was a Transitional Act between the Carnal act of Fleshly Circumcision and the NEW Circumcision of the Heart, by the New Covenant Faith in the Righteousness of the Promised Seed, Christ.

Baptism was a kind of Entrance INTO the Family of God, Abrahams Seed....as an Adult, a KNOWN ACT of repentance from Dead Works..

by **GodsStudent** on Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:06 am

You are wise and educated shorttribber. I certainly lean to wisdom greater than mine (more educated is another way to say).
Thank you for sharing what you know!!!!

Also, the pictures I saw perhaps didn't show all that was there (where John the Baptist baptized Christ, NOT the way I earlier said it, where Christ Baptized John the Baptist, which after researching, I am learning that we don't know who, if anyone, baptized John the Baptist). Here's an article I found with some better pictures and full immersion is possible. What I saw was only where they walk in to it.
https://www.jpost.com/Travel/Around-Isr ... rdan-River

by **Mr Baldy** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:50 am

Jericho wrote:Romans 10:9 makes it clear “If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

I believe you hit the nail on the head by mentioning this passage of Scripture Jericho. After all, as far as what can be determined by Scripture the "thief on the cross" was not baptized. It was very obvious that the words he said to Jesus proved that he believed. He inherited Eternal Life.

Man has always had a unique way of adding to and/or taking away from Scripture to suit his own understanding. I've even witnessed some say that if you are not "baptized in Jesus' name" you're not saved - which is nonsense.

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:36 am

John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To me, the passage explains itself. Far too simple for many.

Twice born. And twice only. Born physically, and born spiritually.

Much love!
Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:38 am

shorttribber wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:The word "baptize" means "immerse". Sprinkling someone with "holy water" is not the same and I think misses the whole point.
I don't think that skipping a physical ritual would prevent someone from being born again spiritually.

Absolutely agree.
Although in some rare circumstances, the full Immersion (under water) washing was not possible to perform. A little sprinkle was not used in the first century either. If a complete immersion were not possible in those rare instances, a Complete washing was performed.

Not One Work (Baptism) of ours prevents or allows Eternal life....It's by Christ's Whole Work Alone.

Hi ST,

If it's to be believed, the Didache specifies a baptismal "order", if you will, if water for immersion is not available.

Much love!
Mark

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:17 am

mark s wrote:John 3
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To me, the passage explains itself. Far too simple for many.

Twice born. And twice only. Born physically, and born spiritually.

Mark, why do you think Jesus omitted the word water first?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

He must have known Nicodemus would be confused by a second physical birth. And sure enough, he was.

John 3:4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

Then Jesus included the word water. I think He included that knowing the importance of water cleansing to the Jews and that Nicodemus should then focus or question the spiritual birth. Then Jesus further clarified His inclusion of the two births by contrasting the physical use of water and the spiritual by distinguishing between the flesh and the spirit. But again, reiterates the necessity of the spiritual birth by eliminating the word water again.

John 3:7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

It seems to me that Jesus was downplaying the importance of water but including it for the sake of Nicodemus understanding. In other words, it was one of those rituals that are transitional from the OT to the NT. Similarly, Paul emphasis the minimal importance of circumcision in the NT in Gal. 5 and Romans 2. He also mentions that some may eat food that another may disagree with and one may observe one day that another does not. Romans 5.

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:12 pm

Hi Abiding,

I think Jesus used "water" and "Spririt" to distinguish physical from spiritual birth, in that Jesus was teaching Nicodemas something new to him.

Much love!
Mark

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:12 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Abiding,

I think Jesus used "water" and "Spririt" to distinguish physical from spiritual birth, in that Jesus was teaching Nicodemas something new to him.

I agree. And there was nothing new about either a physical birth or water cleansing to Nicodemus, so the intended focus was on the spiritual rebirth.

Jesus often meets us where we are and encourages searching. Ask...seek....knock. :grin:

by **Ready1** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:37 pm

And yet there is a blessing in physical water baptism, otherwise there would be no record of it in the scriptures.

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:59 pm

Ready1 wrote:And yet there is a blessing in physical water baptism, otherwise there would be no record of it in the scriptures.

the funny thing is . . . while I believe that we are not saved by baptism, and that it likely has more to do with then, and not so much now . . . and yet . . . when I came to believe, and knew I needed to be a Christian, I became one by being baptized.

I know that it's a physical ritual that either means nothing if there is no internal reality to match, and that if there is that internal reality, then the baptism is superfluous. Just the same, it's what I did.

:lol:

Much love!

by **shorttribber** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:01 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:The word "baptize" means "immerse". Sprinkling someone with "holy water" is not the same and I think misses the whole point.
I don't think that skipping a physical ritual would prevent someone from being born again spiritually.

Absolutely agree.
Although in some rare circumstances, the full Immersion (under water) washing was not possible to perform. A little sprinkle was not used in the first century either. If a complete immersion were not possible in those rare instances, a Complete washing was performed.

Not One Work (Baptism) of ours prevents or allows Eternal life....It's by Christ's Whole Work Alone.

Hi ST,

If it's to be believed, the Didache specifies a baptismal "order", if you will, if water for immersion is not available.

Much love!
Mark

Right, agreed, and also as others have pointed out, Baptism is not needed for salvation (eternal life). We simply, IF IT IS in any way possible, follow Christ and be Baptized.

Here's the other part to this, many were risking their lives openly being baptized against all on lookers who would seek to harm them for TURNING to Christ and following Him. It really meant more to those ancients I believe.

There also was a real obedience issue toward God when Listening to a REAL Prophet like John or the Apostles...to be Baptised...as opposed to following the scribes and Pharisees.

A NEW Covenant was AT HAND...and those Baptized were Heading the right direction and TURNIG TO God.

No longer was it a Covenant that MARKS the Flesh....But now it Marks the Heart with the Seal of God!

by **shorttribber** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:04 pm

Ready1 wrote:And yet there is a blessing in physical water baptism, otherwise there would be no record of it in the scriptures.

Yes, Ageed

by **Ready1** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:32 pm

I know that it's a physical ritual that either means nothing if there is no internal reality to match, and that if there is that internal reality, then the baptism is superfluous. Just the same, it's what I did.

It's what I did as well. I think that it is a wonderful symbol of the death of the old life and being raised to something that is new and gloriously different... (like Romans 6 points out.) I don't think that folks who have not experienced water baptizm can feel that difference. When I came out of the water, I felt clean. And I knew I was saved before I went in!

by **GodsStudent** on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:49 pm

Matt.28 Verses 18 to 20 [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I've been fascinated on this and for the past several days, I've read so much on the subject. While baptism has been established here to be an act Christians do, even John the Baptist did baptize Christ, it's clear in scripture that this is NOT a prerequisite to salvation, as that is Christ's finished work on the Cross and His alone....no act we do can complete that, only Christ can save.

....but, even the NT teaches Baptism, so in all cases where it's possible, it's warranted.

This is what I've learned over the past few days on this subject.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:09 am

GodsStudent wrote:....but, even the NT teaches Baptism, so in all cases where it's possible, it's warranted.

If we remember that Jesus was a Jew, born under the law and fulfilled the law Himself, we will understand that He said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt.15:24.) Paul was sent to the gentiles and confirms the order of sharing the gospel "first to the Jew and also to the Greek". (Romans 1:16).

Jesus knew the importance of water purification/cleansing, and allowed John the Baptist to act in accordance with the law (Num. 18-19). Later in 1 Peter 3:20-21, Paul contrasts baptism (not as the removal of dirt from the flesh) but to the to water that carried Noah and his family to a safe place by the Spirit of God's direction. He tells us that now baptism has a spiritual element in the formation of a moral conscience as opposed to the performance of laws.

So, yes, baptism is mentioned in the NT as we recognize the transition from law to grace. For that reason, Jesus sent the disciples to baptize in "the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (the spiritual meaning) as opposed to the former meaning (purification/cleaning of the flesh). He faces criticism and difficulty with Jews regarding not only his message about baptism but circumcision (Gal.5:2), and eating food that was offered to idols (Acts 15:20) as well.

In my opinion it's important to see and understand this and other passages in light of the transition from the law to grace.

by **mark s** on Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:43 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:In my opinion it's important to see and understand this and other passages in light of the transition from the law to grace.

Hi Abiding,

I think this is true.

That also helps with understanding Acts 15 where the apostles wrote to the gentile churches to not do those certain things, because of the Jews who have been hearing Moses taught every week for all their lives.

Much love!

by **shorttribber** on Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:27 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
GodsStudent wrote:....but, even the NT teaches Baptism, so in all cases where it's possible, it's warranted.

If we remember that Jesus was a Jew, born under the law and fulfilled the law Himself, we will understand that He said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt.15:24.) Paul was sent to the gentiles and confirms the order of sharing the gospel "first to the Jew and also to the Greek". (Romans 1:16).

Jesus knew the importance of water purification/cleansing, and allowed John the Baptist to act in accordance with the law (Num. 18-19). Later in 1 Peter 3:20-21, Paul contrasts baptism (not as the removal of dirt from the flesh) but to the to water that carried Noah and his family to a safe place by the Spirit of God's direction. He tells us that now baptism has a spiritual element in the formation of a moral conscience as opposed to the performance of laws.

So, yes, baptism is mentioned in the NT as we recognize the transition from law to grace. For that reason, Jesus sent the disciples to baptize in "the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (the spiritual meaning) as opposed to the former meaning (purification/cleaning of the flesh). He faces criticism and difficulty with Jews regarding not only his message about baptism but circumcision (Gal.5:2), and eating food that was offered to idols (Acts 15:20) as well.

In my opinion it's important to see and understand this and other passages in light of the transition from the law to grace.

by **shorttribber** on Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:02 pm

Has anybody yet heard or read any teaching on Baptism with the following texts used as Types?

Just wondering

Lev 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:

24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

25 And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.

26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

27 And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung.

28 And he that burneth them shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.

by **Resurrection Torchlight** on Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:52 pm

GodsStudent wrote:Recently I saw the "river" where Jesus baptized John the Baptist (In Israel). The water came up to ankles and below knees but above ankles in other places. Lots of people go there as a site that "must be visited" if you get to visit Israel. Certainly I don't see how anyone could be fully immersed in that place.....unless they laid down in it.
Also, here in the USA, they "use" water that has been "made clean" and call it holy water. It's in a little bowl by the altar.

Lots to think on with this subject....

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1963367

copied from the site:

In modern days the waters of the Jordan and the Sea of Galilee are now being exploited to irrigate the distant Negeb. Pumped up into the Beit Netofa reservoir, they are then carried by a gigantic pipeline nine feet in diameter—large enough to drive a jeep through—to the arid south. And at the southern end of the Sea of Galilee an area that was swampy and desolate has been reclaimed. Bananas, citrus fruits, olives, grapes, vegetables, dairy produce and eggs, as well as eight crops of clover a year, show the productiveness of this fertile valley.

This may account for the shallow waters today

RT

by **Ready1** on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:47 pm

Israel, like California, for the last few years has been in a severe drought. As of 2018, the Sea of Galilee had gone down over thirteen feet. In 2017 the Jordan River, which flows out of the Sea of Galilee, had very low flows to preserve precious water. As of the spring of 2019, however, the drought is broken and Israel, the Golan, and Mt Hermon (the headwaters of the Jordan River) received wonderful rains and snow. The Jordan River was running normally when we were there this spring and the Sea of Galilee had gained over six feet of water.

Depending upon when a person viewed the baptismal sites, (there are two), would have a bearing on what a person saw and how deep the Jordan River was... :grin:

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:25 pm

Do I believe in coincidences? Kinda..... :mrgreen:

Today, Pastor Wade Burleson posted the article on his blog, 5 Reasons why New Covenant Baptism is Spiritual

In case any are interested....

by **GodsStudent** on Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:45 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Do I believe in coincidences? Kinda.....

Today, Pastor Wade Burleson posted the article on his blog, 5 Reasons why New Covenant Baptism is Spiritual

In case any are interested....

I heart it !!!

by **Jay Ross** on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:09 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Do I believe in coincidences? Kinda.....

Today, Pastor Wade Burleson posted the article on his blog, 5 Reasons why New Covenant Baptism is Spiritual

In case any are interested....

Read the article very slowly and decided that it was a discussion about "in" and "into", where the "in" described the process of impartation and the "into" described the outcome of the impartation.

He had also referenced people who had lived in the 19th century and another that lived during the early part of the 20th.

I thought about commenting but did not want to disrupt the stories that get told in the comments.

I don't know if that is the Grace that Wade preaches though.

:mrgreen:

The basis of the Blog's expressed theology is worthy of discussion though

by **extravagantchristian** on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:13 pm

Baptism in the new testament is like circumcision in the old testament. But Romans 4 talks about how Abraham was made righteous apart from circumcision to prove that we are saved by grace and not by works.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NKJV

by **Jay Ross** on Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:37 pm

Yes, Abraham believed God that he would have many descendants even though Sarah was barren. But when God told him that he would inherit the whole earth, that God would show him, he doubted that and wanted a sign that he would eventually inherit the earth along with his descendants who were righteous. The sign given to Abraham was meant for Abraham's descendants in that the possession was not given to Abraham's descendants until their return from Egypt to the land. However, this possession of the land was dependant on Abraham's descendants keeping God's statutes.

God also prophetically stated that the iniquities of the first two ages of Abraham's descendants was that they would practice idolatrous worship and only turn their faces to the Lord in worship and for this reason, their iniquities were visited on their children and their children's children for the following two ages, which is coming to an end within our near future, possibly around 25 years time.

God also prophetically foretold that He would make like new again with the redeemed Israelites the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession Among the Nations Covenant and as Paul wrote that this would occur after the conclusion of the 2,300 years of the heathen Gentiles trampling His Sanctuary in Jerusalem.

God has also undertaken at this time to Gather all of the redeemed Israelites to Himself where they have been scattered to and will plant them in a fertile field for God's cast seed to grow in and bring in a great harvest of souls into God's Everlasting Kingdom shortly to be established here on the earth during the time of the Kings of the fifth segment of the Statue prophecy in Daniel 2.

This is the sign of God's Grace to all of the people that if God can forgive the iniquities of Israel, then He too can forgive the iniquities of the Gentiles and redeem them to Himself as well.

The covenant that has been in effect since the time of Adam and Eve, God's Salvation Covenant with all the peoples of the Earth, will be invoked and God will ordain Priests to walk with the people as they learn to worship and obey God's Statutes.

God's Promise to all of the People of the earth is that He would show mercy to the thousands that Love Him and keep His commandments.

The confirmation of this is when all the righteous inherit the whole earth. That is God's Grace in action.

Shalom