Scriptural information about antichrist's identity

[GodsStudent]

Suggestion: On this thread, lets stick to the facts about what these scriptures say. When you post a response, post the scripture you are speaking about (ie: Revelation 13: 1-4) and then comment on it. I am suggesting that as I hope we can add more and more scriptures and discuss the meaning of the text on each one, so that we can learn more about each scripture. To help us all follow along, please put the scripture you are speaking about and help us understand what is is saying.

Here's the first one.

Revelation 13:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

[extravagantchristian]

About the verses you quoted, 2 things stand out to me...

***One of his heads was wounded***
That makes it sounds like the beast is a pair or a group of people.

Also,
***a beast arose from the sea and land***

To me this kind of sounds like the beasts are relational to a specific spot. Like Israel. So the beast that comes from the land could be coming from Israel, but the beast from the sea could be coming from over seas in relation to Israel.

These are just theories I'm not saying it's for sure.

[Jay Ross]

Hello

The antichrist has the face of a man in appearance, but is not a man. The Antichrist is a wicked fallen heavenly host that will be worshiped.

Shalom

[extravagantchristian]

Verses Jay?

[Ready1]

This talks about him but does not identify him

2Th 2:3 Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction.
2Th 2:4 He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.
2Th 2:5 Don't you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you?
2Th 2:6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes.
2Th 2:7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of His mouth and destroy him by the splendor of His coming.
2Th 2:9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.
2Th 2:10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them.

[shorttribber]

Verses Jay?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Suggestion: On this thread, lets stick to the facts about what these scriptures say. When you post a response, post the scripture you are speaking about (ie: Revelation 13: 1-4) and then comment on it. I am suggesting that as I hope we can add more and more scriptures and discuss the meaning of the text on each one, so that we can learn more about each scripture. To help us all follow along, please put the scripture you are speaking about and help us understand what is is saying.

Here's the first one.

Revelation 13:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

so here's what stands out to me in these passages:

One beast with seven heads and ten horns with ten crowns- each head has written on it blasphemous names.
The beast seems connected to the beasts that Daniel saw, leopard, bear, lion....Greece, Medo/Persia, Babylon (in reverse order from Daniel though). If you look at Daniel's beasts you have seven heads altogether:

Daniel 7:6
6 “After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

Daniel 7:5
5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’

Daniel 7:4
4 “The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it.

And in Daniel they also arise from the "Sea":

Daniel 7:2–3
2 Daniel said, “I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.
3 “And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another.

So if we want to understand the beast of Revelation 13, I think we can look to Daniel for clues. we know from Daniel what nations and kings these beasts represented. The four generals of Greece, the Medes and Persians, preceded by Babylon. These nations all resided within the Mediterranean area (The sea). Daniel adds the fourth beast

Daniel 7:7
7 “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

I think this fourth beast may be what John saw rising from the sea, seven heads representing a conglomerate of the others but different. Unlike it's predecessors. In fact that word "different" underlined, can mean to be "altered" or to be "changed". As in transformed, or turned into something else. Hm????

How is this beast different from the others? We know what it is that causes people to follow it and to ultimately worship the dragon and the beast:

Revelation 13:3–4
3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;
4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

Where have we seen that phrase before "as if slain"? Back in Revelation 5, the Lamb appears in heaven standing "as if slain". He lives though He was slain. Isn't that why we follow Him? Jesus conquered death,He rose from the grave. This "head" will do the same, he receives a fatal war wound and is resurrected from the dead. This is why people ask the question how can anyone wage war with a being that defies death? He will claim to be God- a false Christ. The ultimate blasphemy.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

I think part of this alteration includes the mouth he is given after this "resurrection" occurs:

Revelation 13:5–6
5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

I think this "head" is indwelled by the beast that comes up out of the abyss when it is resurrected from the dead.

Revelation 11:7
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

Revelation 17:8
8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

This is how he is "altered", this is the point at which he is given authority to blaspheme God and make war with the saints.

We know that according to Daniel and Revelation 17, that the heads refer to Kings of certain kingdoms, horns represent kings as well. Loyal to the head upon which they reside.

Daniel 7:23–25
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The mouth of Rev 13 is equal to the little horn of Daniel 7. Daniel saw the 10 horns on the final beast kingdom, the little horn subdues three, reducing the number to seven, with the little horn becoming an eighth.

Revelation 17:9–11
9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
11 “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

I do not believe that the ten horns in Rev 17 are the same kings that Daniel saw on his beast. I think Daniel saw the conglomerate beast but instead of seven heads, he saw it with 10 horns. Which in John's description translates to seven heads after three are subdued. I believe that the three subdued kings will fall before the "beast" is altered, or maybe his death will occur when he subdues these kings/kingdoms.

I could be wrong about all this- just my two cents, though given the length of this post maybe five cents

RT

[Jericho]

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

This goes along with Zachariah 11:17

“Woe to the worthless shepherd,
Who leaves the flock!
A sword shall be against his arm
And against his right eye;
His arm shall completely wither,
And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

There has been debate if this deadly wound is literal or figurative. To me Zachariah would imply it's literal. Whatever happens (assassination maybe?) he miraculously recovers, albeit not completely.

[shorttribber]

“Woe to the worthless shepherd,Who leaves the flock!A sword shall be against his armAnd against his right eye;His arm shall completely wither,And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”There has been debate if this deadly wound is literal or figurative.
To me Zachariah would imply it's literal. Whatever happens (assassination maybe?) he miraculously recovers, albeit not completely.

Hi Jericho,

Why is it that you would think this passage is to be understood literally?

Is the antichrist going to be a Literal Shepherd of Literal Sheep?

This passage is to be understood in the nonliteral sense I think.

Those who hold to a strict literal kind of interpretation of scripture tend to pick out select portions of a text and say, "this part of the verse is literal and this part the same verse is not".

[extravagantchristian]

ST sometimes scripture is literal.

Jesus was called the good shepherd, literally.

Is it that far fetched to call "man of sin" the worthless shepherd?

This is key:
The Jews reject their true Messiah Jesus, the good shepherd. So God is going to send them a false Christ. a worthless shepherd. The Jews are still waiting for their messiah to come and usher in an era of peace, and that's exactly what the antichrist is going to do. He would have to be Jewish to claim to be messiah.

Jewish eschatology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

That's why I suspect Jared Kushner. Because that's exactly what he's trying to do.

A shepherd is a leader, and the Jews will trust Him AT FIRST...

In Daniel 27 he confirms a covenant, they trust his leading.
*** BUT in the middle of the week he stops it and puts an end to the sacrifice and offering.
(I also think this indicates that he is the one who initiates the sacrifices in the first place by means of the covenant)

Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

I think that Daniel 11 confirms that the covenant of the Antichrist will be a covenant of Peace
(remember, what Jesus said, "when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction will come upon them)

Daniel 11:21 And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue.

Daniel 11:24 He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time.

He is someone who will bring the Jews into a so called era of peace. Messiah.

Zechariah 17 does seem match up with Revelation 13, his miraculous healing will CAUSE the world to worship him. "who is able to make war with him?" A head wound could disable the right side of his body.

Zechariah 11:17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd, Who leaves the flock! A sword shall be against his arm And against his right eye; His arm shall completely wither, And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

Revelation 13:3-5
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

Remember Paul said, If they tell you that the Day of the Lord has already come, don't believe it. That's the delusion of the end times, "The day of the Lord Has Come" "Christ is here"

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,

JESUS SAID:
Matthew 24:26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

[Jericho]

“Woe to the worthless shepherd,Who leaves the flock!A sword shall be against his armAnd against his right eye;His arm shall completely wither,And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”There has been debate if this deadly wound is literal or figurative.
To me Zachariah would imply it's literal. Whatever happens (assassination maybe?) he miraculously recovers, albeit not completely.

Hi Jericho,

Why is it that you would think this passage is to be understood literally?

Is the antichrist going to be a Literal Shepherd of Literal Sheep?

This passage is to be understood in the nonliteral sense I think.

Those who hold to a strict literal kind of interpretation of scripture tend to pick out select portions of a text and say, "this part of the verse is literal and this part the same verse is not".

ST, were all the Old Testament prophecies concerning Jesus (or anything else) that have already been fulfilled literal or allegorical? There are literal and allegorical scriptures, true, though the context usually determines which is which. At the same time those who make everything allegorical can make the scriptures say anything they want.

[shorttribber]

ST, were all the Old Testament prophecies concerning Jesus (or anything else) that have already been fulfilled literal or allegorical?

It wasn't one OR the other, it was both.

There are literal and allegorical scriptures, true, though the context usually determines which is which.

Yes, but the context is not always agreed on. The Perceived Context is very fluid and subjective depending on the reader.

At the same time those who make everything allegorical can make the scriptures say anything they want.

That is very true.

It is the primary reason I believe that a Balanced Amount of literal sense and spiritual sense must be employed.

That is a General Rule I personally use while comprehending Bible prophecy.

I do not use the common modern dispensationalists rule of "If it is possible to understand a text in the literal sense, it must be understood that way, if it is not possible at all to do that, then and only then is it to be understood in the spiritual or allegorical sense."

I do not believe that the modern dispensationalists rule is at all balanced.


Hopefully this little side discussion does not take away from the intent of this thread....but it may be helpful while considering what may or may not refer to antichrist, or how he may or may not act, or what may or may not occur to him or by him.

[Ready1]

He would have to be Jewish to claim to be messiah.

While we look at the Jews and would expect that this would be true, the fact of the matter is that they know so little of what the scripture says that they will accept anyone who promises them what they see as theirs.

A couple of years ago we were in Israel an I asked our Jewish guide, (who was very familiar with the NT) whether he would know the messiah 1) by "who he is" (I.e. someone who has all the right credentials to be messiah) or 2) by what he does. His answer was instantaneous and unequivocal, "By what he does!" He suggested that he would be able to accept someone as diverse as Donald Trump. It definitely brought to mind the scripture

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

I believe this to be a prophecy uttered by Jesus regarding the coming false messiah.

While the false messiah OUGHT to be Jewish, I don't personally share the conviction that he will be.

[Ready1]

Just another point. The reason that Jews know so little about God's word is that even the very religious do not study it. They instead study what the rabbi's say about God's word and there are over 2000 years of rabbi's to study after. If they actually studied the word, they would be drawn to the Messiah, but Jesus called them "blind leaders of the blind."

[shorttribber]

There are literal and allegorical scriptures, true, though the context usually determines which is which.

Just to add one more small part to what I wrote in my previous post above. Keep in mind the context.

Lets look only four verses from the text you mentioned Jericho.....keeping in mind of course that there were no verses in the ancient Hebrew text.

Look how the language and ideas do not change...how are we then to perceive those verses that are so closely knit together?

17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

God is going to make every horse and rider literally blind and go crazy?

[shorttribber]

He would have to be Jewish to claim to be messiah.

While we look at the Jews and would expect that this would be true, the fact of the matter is that they know so little of what the scripture says that they will accept anyone who promises them what they see as theirs.

A couple of years ago we were in Israel an I asked our Jewish guide, (who was very familiar with the NT) whether he would know the messiah 1) by "who he is" (I.e. someone who has all the right credentials to be messiah) or 2) by what he does. His answer was instantaneous and unequivocal, "By what he does!" He suggested that he would be able to accept someone as diverse as Donald Trump. It definitely brought to mind the scripture

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

I believe this to be a prophecy uttered by Jesus regarding the coming false messiah.

While the false messiah OUGHT to be Jewish, I don't personally share the conviction that he will be.

Great post

[shorttribber]

Just another point. The reason that Jews know so little about God's word is that even the very religious do not study it. They instead study what the rabbi's say about God's word and there are over 2000 years of rabbi's to study after. If they actually studied the word, they would be drawn to the Messiah, but Jesus called them "blind leaders of the blind."

Hmmmm, I read your post regarding blindness AFTER I posted about the horses and riders Astonishment and Blindness.

[GodsStudent]

He would have to be Jewish to claim to be messiah.

While we look at the Jews and would expect that this would be true, the fact of the matter is that they know so little of what the scripture says that they will accept anyone who promises them what they see as theirs.

A couple of years ago we were in Israel an I asked our Jewish guide, (who was very familiar with the NT) whether he would know the messiah 1) by "who he is" (I.e. someone who has all the right credentials to be messiah) or 2) by what he does. His answer was instantaneous and unequivocal, "By what he does!" He suggested that he would be able to accept someone as diverse as Donald Trump. It definitely brought to mind the scripture

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

I believe this to be a prophecy uttered by Jesus regarding the coming false messiah.

While the false messiah OUGHT to be Jewish, I don't personally share the conviction that he will be.

Well said Ready 1.
Without events actually happening, YET, we really have to keep an open mind. That said, I expect most in our group here are focusing on "what he does" as the key to "who he is." We talk about all of this and debate and discuss, but we know and are learning the scriptures and at the end of the day, I pray we don't lose anyone in our group as a result of what we see happening....it really needs to unfold.
I am praying over this specific thread for the sake of all here at FP.
I want to contribute more, and am going to.
I have a lot going on right now that is keeping me away, but I intend to add a few more verses to keep this discussion going....So far, what a great discussion.

[extravagantchristian]

Ready1

So the Jews are awaiting Messiah right?

But you're saying that they are so ignorant of even the old testament that would accept a gentile as Christ?

I don't know that I would assume that.

Maybe a few Jews would but not the entire world.

Jesus said that the strong delusion could deceive even the elect. Therefore the lie must be Bible based.

Again Paul warned us that they would say "the Day of Christ has already come."

I have an open mind, and admit that I could be wrong but for now this is how I see it.

[shorttribber]

Jesus said that the strong delusion could deceive even the elect. Therefore the lie must be Bible based.Again Paul warned us that they would say "the Day of Christ has already come."

Nailed it! If Jesus were speaking only to the Jews and regarding only the Jews then why would He have said that? "Even the Elect" ? Wow, how hard is it for the ignorant to be deceived? Not a great SIGN to look for right? For the Elect to be deceived as a sign of the Greatness of the deception it would mean that the deception will confuse EVEN THOSE Who Watch and Study Bible prophecy and Bible TRUTH in general.

Even those who Really do study...True believers COULD Possibly be deceived, at least temporarily.....
And THAT is exactly what I expect WILL HAPPEN when antichrist is Revealed.

[extravagantchristian]

Looking at the religious Jewish population as a whole, what do they believe? Like if you asked a rabbi or temple leader what would they say?

I took some screen shots of a link I posted earlier from wikipedia. It appears that the core followers of Judaism hold to the teaching that the Christ will come from the line of David, and are awaiting his coming.

[shorttribber]

Jer 51

21 And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider;....................
23 I will also break in pieces with thee the shepherd and his flock; and with thee will I break in pieces the husbandman and his yoke of oxen; and with thee will I break in pieces captains and rulers.................
25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain...............
26 And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the LORD.


One of the Reason the Religious Jews, or Studying Jews do not look for the Head of the Corner to come form any Gentile (Babylonian) area......................Please see above texts....and text below that Jesus quotes


Luke 20
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.


Interesting that Jeremiah 51 and it's description of Babylon is thought by many to be a prophecy not only of ancient Babylon, but also of the US.



Keep the following text in mind as we all approach some very confusing days ahead.

Isaiah 9:5-7 King James Version (KJV)

5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

[mark s]

Doesn't the verse say the elect would be deceived if it were possible? If that's right, then it's not saying the elect would be deceived.

And, of course, the elect, the chosen, in that context, is the Jews. The chosen nation, compare to the nations in the next chapter.

But then, many Jews, I believe, will be deceived by coming antichrist.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

HI EC,

That's right, Just as Jesus asked the Jews, the Christ, who's son is he? The son of David, they answered.
Makes sense to me!

Much love!
Mark

[shorttribber]

Doesn't the verse say the elect would be deceived if it were possible?

Actually the verse says "Very Elect".....i.e. (Truly Elect).

Elect as a nation, Elect of God, i believe is different than being TRULY Elect, as in Christ.

The, "if it were possible" is an interesting way for Christ to have said that.
For example, i worked on a starting problem with my old van last week. At First or Briefly, i Was in a sense Deceived by what was actually at fault with the system....the problem itself or the van itself did not deceive me as to what was wrong, i simply deceived Myself by my own assumptions as to what was actually wrong.

I did not however Remain Deceived, i fixed it. Because i fixed my own thinking or perspective of the problem.

In short, a brief moment of Confusion does not mean Ultimate Deception, it only means that deception is there to be had...If it Were Possible.....but only Briefly Experienced.

That is what i think Jesus meant when he said, "If it were possible".

[GodsStudent]

Revelation 13:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Going back to the OP: Revelation 13, verse 1
He was standing upon the sand of the sea.....and saw the beast rise up out of the sea.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Doesn't Revelation 17:15 tell us the sea is all of the gentile nations and that the beast is rising up from out of them?

Then, we have other information about him....He rises up out of this sea which has seven heads and ten horns....
(in sincerity, my question for those who say he comes of Jewish and not gentile lineage is, how do we reconcile this information of his seven heads and ten horns, which is better described in Daniel)

Daniel 7:16-24 King James Version (KJV)
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


We are debating (above) how even the elect can be decieved which is not sticking to the facts about scriptures which describe the antichrist to us. If we do that first and look at the scriptures later, then how can we ever discuss precisely what the scriptures say, in order that we know what they say and prevent the very thing we are debating, which is being deceived?

[shorttribber]

We are debating (above) how even the elect can be decieved which is not sticking to the facts about scriptures which describe the antichrist to us.

Hi GS,
It depends on the actual acts of the antichrist GS, when it comes to how scriptures describe him. For example, many like to use the white horse and rider of Rev 6 to "Describe" the Acts of the Coming antichrist.

Is that not true? Is that not a Common scripture used to "describe" him and his actions?

That scripture however does not imo describe a future antichrist.

So, what I'm saying is, "sticking to the facts" is very questionable when we describe the coming antichrist.

[extravagantchristian]

So about the Jewish Antichrist theory...

I assume it's even possible that He could be a leader in Israel, from Israel.

Because It takes 2 parties to agree to any kind of covenant.

So if the covenant was the idea of a person from overseas, let's just say Europe for example. Then it would be possible for Netanyahu (for example) to be the AC because he would be one of the parties confirming the covenant.

And going back to GS's OP, it describes 2 beasts, one coming from the land one coming from the sea (overseas)

So then who's to say that the land beast wasn't Netanyahu and the sea beast was Macron or Trump?

Then there's the fact that these beasts seem to have multiple heads, well that complicates things. There could be multiple people involved per beast. Presidents, vice presidents of 2 different countries. Prime ministers.

Of course only one of them will be "the man of sin." The one who is injured by head wound, the one the whole world worships.

Godsstudent, about the 7 heads and 10 horns, that's a good question. I don't know. What government has groups of 7 and 10? That could be a good clue.
Could it be the United Nations? Which is based in New York.

The UN security council has 5 permanent members and 15 temporary members.
I suppose the numbers could change from 5/15 to 7/10.

Apparently Africa is asking for 2 permanent seats on the UN security council so that would bring the number up to 7

https://www.finalcall.com/artman/publis ... ncil.shtml

Revelation 13:1 [ The Beast from the Sea ] Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.

[Ready1]

4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

God is going to make every horse and rider literally blind and go crazy?

Strangely enough, ST, God really does do what he has telegraphed in advance. It is my opinion that the Lord will do exactly and literally what he describes in this passage in the final battle of the beast and Jesus.

In the following passages God does exactly what he has said he is going to do. No one could have foreseen the exactness with which God fulfilled these prophecies. Miraculously! And if these are not enough, I have eight more illustrations for you!

Exo 7:3 But I will make Pharaoh's heart stubborn so I can multiply My miraculous signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 7:4 Even then Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you. So I will bring down My fist on Egypt. Then I will rescue My forces—My people, the Israelites—from the land of Egypt with great acts of judgment.
Exo 7:5 When I raise My powerful hand and bring out the Israelites, the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD."

1.) Exo 7:17 So this is what the LORD says: "I will show you that I am the LORD." Look! I will strike the water of the Nile with this staff in my hand, and the river will turn to blood.
Exo 7:18 The fish in it will die, and the river will stink. The Egyptians will not be able to drink any water from the Nile.'"
Exo 7:19 Then the LORD said to Moses: "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and raise your hand over the waters of Egypt—all its rivers, canals, ponds, and all the reservoirs. Turn all the water to blood. Everywhere in Egypt the water will turn to blood, even the water stored in wooden bowls and stone pots.'"
Exo 7:20 So Moses and Aaron did just as the LORD commanded them. As Pharaoh and all of his officials watched, Aaron raised his staff and struck the water of the Nile. Suddenly, the whole river turned to blood!

2.) Exo 8:3 The Nile River will swarm with frogs. They will come up out of the river and into your palace, even into your bedroom and onto your bed! They will enter the houses of your officials and your people. They will even jump into your ovens and your kneading bowls.
Exo 8:4 Frogs will jump on you, your people, and all your officials.'"
Exo 8:5 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Raise the staff in your hand over all the rivers, canals, and ponds of Egypt, and bring up frogs over all the land.'"
Exo 8:6 So Aaron raised his hand over the waters of Egypt, and frogs came up and covered the whole land!

[Ready1]

Ready1

So the Jews are awaiting Messiah right?

But you're saying that they are so ignorant of even the old testament that would accept a gentile as Christ?

I don't know that I would assume that.

Maybe a few Jews would but not the entire world.

Jesus said that the strong delusion could deceive even the elect. Therefore the lie must be Bible based.

Again Paul warned us that they would say "the Day of Christ has already come."

I have an open mind, and admit that I could be wrong but for now this is how I see it.

Hi EC I am not trying to make an assumption. I am trying to give you a feel of what the Jewish community feels like in Israel.

Many (in my opinion, MOST) of the young people have no interest at all in spiritual things. Tel Aviv is one of the most modern (and hedonistic) cities in the world. It is much like San Francisco with its tolerance to aberrant behavior.

Those Jews who are interested in "spiritual things" are only interested in the rabbinical schools. These folks are definitely devout. They pray publicly, they study arduously, and they follow after rabbinical teaching with a zeal. But truth to tell, they don't study the scriptures. They study the rabbinical works. They don't work, they study, study, study. You can see these folks at places like Hebron, the underground passage north of the wailing wall, and many other places where rabbinical schools exist.

Then there are the masses which put on the kippa any time they are close to religious sites and which have no interest in it at any other time. But they are Jews. Non Observant they call themselves. Most have been thru Bar Mitzvah but otherwise have no interest in anything except family, money, and getting ahead. Kind of like here. Almost without exception, when you ask an Israeli if they are "looking for the Messiah", their answer is "Some may be, but I am not."

You may like this site to get a little better feel how a non-observant Jew feels. (These are testimonies of Jews who have found the Lord but their testimonies give a great view of their life before Him.) I Met Messiah

[shorttribber]

Strangely enough, ST, God really does do what he has telegraphed in advance.

Of course He does Ready, that's not the point I'm making, the issue I bring up is our understanding the telegraph.

I'm not in denial of literal fulfillments at all by the way, I'm just saying that the fulfillments do not Require a literal fulfillment in many cases, of which I can also provide numerous examples.

Back to the point I was making while answering GS......below is a great example...

I assume it's even possible that He could be a leader in Israel, from Israel.
Because It takes 2 parties to agree to any kind of covenant.
So if the covenant was the idea of a person from overseas, let's just say Europe for example.
Then it would be possible for Netanyahu (for example) to be the AC because he would be one of the parties confirming the covenant.

I enlarged the word "Because"....

If there is NO COVENANT that will be Confirmed or made by a future antichrist, does that not exclude that particular "Descriptive Act" as a Sign of the Real or Actual coming antichrist?

If the Real antichrist never makes a covenant, will most prophecy students know who he is when he IS Revealed?

I don't think most will, and I think most will Think the antichrist has been revealed if there is a covenant made.

BEACUSE, that is what most evangelicals have been taught to believe.

[GodsStudent]

Hi Ready1....It's really cool to get your insights from a land you've obviously visited, but which I have not.

[GodsStudent]

Hi Shorttribber: I understand what you're saying. My goal here, in this thread, was to have a succinct and flowing discussion of just what the scriptures say so as to have a better understanding of those only. I am not a teacher, but have a difficult time getting teaching, sometimes, because discussions deviate from simple fact (which I need to grasp it all), to almost like a philosophical debate about how even to look at the scriptures.

When do we get into the actual text...plain and simple....what it says, what that means?

Would that be the best way to clear up confusion about who he is, according to the scriptures?

Maybe I am mistaken?

[extravagantchristian]

Ok ST, you're saying that there will be no covenant.

Maybe you're right. I don't know that the book of Daniel is clear enough to say for sure.

The antichrist can be identified in other ways such as,

Standing in the Temple as God and
Causing all to take the mark of the beast.

But getting back to the original post.

Can we know his nationality? Where he is from?

[Sonbeam]

On the idea that the elect will be deceived, they/we won't.


Matt 24:24 (NASB)

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible , even the elect.

The above verse has a qualifier: if possible. And it will not be possible because Jesus also said this:


John 10:4-6 (NASB)

4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

6 This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

Blessings,

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Suggestion: On this thread, lets stick to the facts about what these scriptures say. When you post a response, post the scripture you are speaking about (ie: Revelation 13: 1-4) and then comment on it.

Here's the first one.

Revelation 13:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The words sea and waters usually symbolize "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" as in

Rev 17:15

15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.


and in Isaiah 17:12

Alas, the uproar of many peoples
Who roar like the roaring of the seas,
And the rumbling of nations
Who rush on like the rumbling of mighty waters!

I don't think that the Rev 13 verse is saying that those peoples or nations have to be necessarily located close to or by body of water.


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

The antichrist can be identified in other ways such as,Standing in the Temple as God and..........

The text says...so that he "Sitteth or sits" which also means "Established". So that also allows for a nonliteral temple being built.

We don't need not go down that road of conversation though.

When do we get into the actual text...plain and simple....what it says, what that means?

That's exactly what I'm saying GS...What it (a particular text) Says and what it Means is not always agreed on.

I will be happy to bow out of this thread simply because I choose not to derail it.

It is better to allow the discussion to proceed as though the seven year trib idea were possibly correct...and it is possible, but I do think it only slightly, very slightly possible.

It's ok, I think it is better to allow that....

Blessings to all.

[extravagantchristian]

ST if you're right and there is no covenant and no temple, then all that's left is the Antichrist being here for 42 months, and that's a very short time to cause ALL seven billion people to take the mark of the beast.

So I guess in that case we would recognize him by that one trait. The mark of the beast.

Anyhow, do you have an opinion on his nationality? Where he's from?

[shorttribber]

ST if you're right and there is no covenant and no temple, then all that's left is the Antichrist being here for 42 months, and that's a very short time to cause ALL seven billion people to take the mark of the beast.

So I guess in that case we would recognize him by that one trait. The mark of the beast.

Anyhow, do you have an opinion on his nationality? Where he's from?

Not all will take the mark, all Christians will die who refuse it.

Yes, I do have an opinion on his nationality and who he is......but I will not say, because of the rules that are in place.

Many qualifiers that identify him have already come to pass...but there are more in the future though, beside the mark. It's just a matter of looking at the scriptures from an uncommon perspective that I have already seen the qualifiers.

When he is revealed, it won't take very long to know though for the Truly Elect.

There will be much confusion about it though, that is the intent of the Loser....but it won't last long...we will win

[extravagantchristian]

What do you think?

Jewish, Muslim, European, White, British?

[shorttribber]

What do you think?Jewish, Muslim, European, White, British?

Muslim

[mark s]

Personally, I think a key identifying factor in who the antichrist is, will be that a man will sit in a temple in Jerusalem and declare that he is god.

This false god standing in the Temple of God will be the abomination that causes desolation. When the Jews see this, those who heed the warning will flee to the wilderness, out of Jerusalem and Judea.

Call it the final capstone sign that this is indeed the man of sin. But I suspect the two witnesses will most likely be telling people already. I suspect many Jews who were fooled will believe when they see this man standing where he's not supposed to, speaking blasphemy, that he, a man, is God.

Much love!
Mark

[GodsStudent]

Hi ST: I am not sure why you feel "invited" to bow out of this thread...you are a big time teacher here on FP, and your insights to the discussion are important imo. That said, I am not a teacher or big time and trying to look at this stuff (maybe on my lower level is a way to say it), so in order that I can follow along, I am asking to keep it simple and look at some of the scriptures about him so I can learn more about this.
It's interesting that you think muslim, and you are certainly not alone, and I don't know about any "rules," but I would hope that there weren't any that keep us from edifying each other.....most of us know there are the 3 theories out there, that he will be muslim, jewish or from Europe....and most of us know the basic tenants as to why people feel their studies have led them to believe he will arise from one of these 3 veins.

You stumped me again with bringing up the 7 year thing.......which adds another layer....but again, it gets "not simple" as the simple goal of this thread was to look at the verses which tell us about him so that we could explore more about who he is and possibly where he hails from. We aren't doing much of that, to my dismay and disappointment....
I dont know if we can go back to looking at the first scripture and sticking with that, but if not, it's ok...I guess I maybe can do my own studies and ask questions on this thread or another....was trying to do as a group, but we are all over the place....lol....it's ok.

[GodsStudent]

Here's the thing. I don't know if any of you notice I don't often participate in your debates and I posted this on the questions/answers section, hoping it wouldn't be a debate, because I am not advanced enough to debate with you all. I am trying to look at scriptures and learn, but it gets complicated when we take it all over the place and don't stick with the scriptures we are trying to discuss.
I can't teach....I can barely sometimes learn....and I was hoping to look at this with some of you, because so many of you have good knowledge, but it's proving really hard....especially in assuming we are talking about all sorts of things, when really, I opened this thread with one scripture and we aren't talking about it.....
Im sorry....I am not fussing.....I am sad and discouraged....and feel like I am not getting out of this what I wanted and needed.....which is to put a series of scriptures out there, one at a time, and talk about them, one at a time....moving on as we completed the first one, and going to a second one.

[mark s]

. . . which is to put a series of scriptures out there, one at a time, and talk about them, one at a time....moving on as we completed the first one, and going to a second one.

Oh my dear sister the Optimist!



Shall we ever be able to do that?

[Jericho]

I can't teach....I can barely sometimes learn....and I was hoping to look at this with some of you, because so many of you have good knowledge, but it's proving really hard....especially in assuming we are talking about all sorts of things, when really, I opened this thread with one scripture and we aren't talking about it.....
Im sorry....I am not fussing.....I am sad and discouraged....and feel like I am not getting out of this what I wanted and needed.....which is to put a series of scriptures out there, one at a time, and talk about them, one at a time....moving on as we completed the first one, and going to a second one.

This is a difficult subject because like the rapture there are so many differing opinions. It's a topic we are never going to agree on completely until it happens. Maybe if we just posted our scriptures and how we believe it relates to the anti-Christ, and let everyone make up their own minds. Otherwise it turns into a debate.

[Jay Ross]

Verses Jay?

This was totally unnecessary ST and was simply stirring the pot.

[mark s]

Hi God'sStudent,

You may want to check out This Link.

I think it covers the relevant passages pretty well, acknowledging some of the questions that exist.

Hopefully helpful!

Much love,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Hello

The antichrist has the face of a man in appearance but is not a man. The Antichrist is a wicked fallen heavenly host that will be worshiped.

Shalom

Verses Jay?

My apologies Lisa for not providing the verses to back up my statement above. Sadly, I did not have the time to spend that would have allowed me to provide more details. Oppressive humidity, renovation work and family got in the way of providing a more detail response which would have been on topic. Hopefully the information below with help answer some of the raise questions.

Paul wrote in Ephesian 6:12: - For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

The question that has to be asked is who are "the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places," and are they spoken about elsewhere in the scriptures?

The answer to that is yes. In Daniel 7:2 Daniel confirms for us that the four beasts of Daniel 7:3-12 are four spiritual entities that come from heaven when the word "wind" is a way of identifying a spiritual being, i.e. a heavenly host, an angel.

Daniel 7:2: - Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.

Each of the winds of heaven have a specific characteristic, namely,

The first heavenly host's dominion/characteristic is: - Daniel 7:4: - The first was like a lion and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

The second host's dominion/characteristic is: - Daniel 7:5: - "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: 'Arise, devour much flesh!'

The third host's dominion/characteristic is: - Daniel 7:6: - "After this I looked, and there was another, {a third beast}, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

The fourth host's dominion/characteristic is: - Daniel 7:7: - "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

These are the four heavenly hosts that are stirring up the sea of humanity, such that the seas rise up and manifests these four beasts so that their influence over the people of the sea can be seen.

Now there is also a fifth heavenly host/beast, but it is not stirring up the sea as the first four beasts did to manifest themselves, instead this beast is exerting its dominion over the first four heavenly hosts and its characteristic is: - Daniel 7:8: - I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

When the influence of the fifth heavenly host/beast of Daniel 7 is manifested in the fourth beast, the time of judgement of all the beasts occurs in heaven after the setting up of the thrones and the books were opened with the following outcome occurring: - Daniel 7:11-12: - 11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given {over for} the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Now the confirmation of the above judgement is in heaven of the heavenly hosts/spirits/beasts can be found in: -

Isaiah 24:21-22: -

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

Also confirmation is found in Revelation 12::7-9: - 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The pit mentioned in Isaiah 24:21-22 is also confirmed in: - Revelation 17:8a: - The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition;

And also in: - Revelation 11:7: - When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Now the question of which beast was slain in Daniel 7: 11, can in part be also answered in: -

Revelation 13:3-6: - 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

Of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, only the fourth beast was associated with the speaking of great things out against God in cahoots with the Little Horn. It is the healing of the wound to the head of the fourth beast that causes people to worship the beast described in Revelation 13, which rises up as a single entity, a confederation of the four beasts of Daniel 7:2-7, with them acting with a single purpose to oppose God.

Now, if the beasts are heavenly hosts that manifest themselves in the seas of humanity, then the anti-christ in my humble opinion is also a heavenly host and as such we should not be focusing on who, humanly speaking will be the heavenly host as this is part of Satan's deception over us. In effect we have already been deceived into believing something that is not true.

In my original post above I wrote, "The antichrist has the face of a man in appearance but is not a man." Sadly, I did not have any time available to write and elaborate on my post, nor to provide scriptural support. I have spent some considerable time this morning, my time, searching my memory and scriptures to find where I had previously found the verse which suggests that the heavenly host that is the antichrist, has the face that gives the appearance of a man.

Since this post is now too long, I will stop writing and continue searching off line.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[shorttribber]

Hi ST: I am not sure why you feel "invited" to bow out of this thread...you are a big time teacher here on FP, and your insights to the discussion are important imo. That said, I am not a teacher or big time and trying to look at this stuff (maybe on my lower level is a way to say it), so in order that I can follow along, I am asking to keep it simple and look at some of the scriptures about him so I can learn more about this.
It's interesting that you think muslim, and you are certainly not alone, and I don't know about any "rules," but I would hope that there weren't any that keep us from edifying each other.....most of us know there are the 3 theories out there, that he will be muslim, jewish or from Europe....and most of us know the basic tenants as to why people feel their studies have led them to believe he will arise from one of these 3 veins.

You stumped me again with bringing up the 7 year thing.......which adds another layer....but again, it gets "not simple" as the simple goal of this thread was to look at the verses which tell us about him so that we could explore more about who he is and possibly where he hails from. We aren't doing much of that, to my dismay and disappointment....
I dont know if we can go back to looking at the first scripture and sticking with that, but if not, it's ok...I guess I maybe can do my own studies and ask questions on this thread or another....was trying to do as a group, but we are all over the place....lol....it's ok.

Hi GS,
Thank you for the welcome feeling. It's not that I don't want to participate because I feel unwelcome, it's just that with an idea of a shorttrib (3.5 years) rather than the 7 year idea that is most common, the way I look at a simple text is not the same as most would view the same text.
Because of that, my contributions would do more to derail the thread than would allow you to learn what you are attempting to learn.

It's ok, there are others that can help with the texts you are looking to understand, from a perspective that you have come to be more familiar with.

Blessings