REVELATION AND ITS INTERPRETATION

[canada]

THE BOOK OF REVELATION AND ITS INTERPRETATION

There are three common interpretations of this prophetic book:

Partial preterism ... most of Revelation has been fulfilled.
RC Sproul John Piper etc. ... Nero (Nrn Qsr) usually the numbered beast.

Historicism ... some of Revelation has been fulfilled and some of Revelation yet to be fulfilled. EB Elliott Charles Spurgeon. Papacy one of the beasts and the Church of Rome the great harlot church described in Revelation.

Futurism ... some of Revelation has been fulfilled but most has yet to be fulfilled. John Darby, C I Scofield, Hal Lindsay etc. I think the Jesuit priest Alcazar held to futurism as the finger of prophecy was starting to point to his church at that time.

There is another “interpretation” of Revelation called full preterism ... all prophecy has been fulfilled ... most consider this view heretical.

I was a futurist for ten years ... my books by futurist authors stack higher than myself.

I am now an historicist ... do they have all the answers> No, but I believe they are closer to the truth than the other isms.

The main difference between historicism and futurism, is that the historicist (like the futurist) is watching for prophetic events to occur, and when he feels a biblical prophetic event has come to pass ... he reports on it.

The futurist also watches, but most futurist prophecy teachers tend to attempt to tell us ... “what is going to happen” rather than what has happened.

This is the luxury of futurist authors ... considerable assumption and speculation ... however, it sells a lot of books to us students of prophecy.

[sacredcowbasher]

I haven't spent a lot of time in this wonderful book lately, but it means so much to me I don't really have words to adequately express it. God is so amazing in His character that He gives us New Testament believers a book about future events. Not that we don't have clear prophecies from the OT as well, which is also amazing, but it is so awesome that He gave John these truths and events that are coming, even to the point of past His millennial reign.

I don't know if you searched out a thread that may have been started by Shorttribber about the Four horsemen, but I want to share with you what I see them to be. I was reading the book one day, when I say something in chapter five I think it was, about the living creatures which are described in appearance and said to be at or around the throne. I noticed that one had the face of a lion, one had the face of a calf, one had the face of a man, and one had the face of an eagle.

When you get to Rev 6 and the seals are opened, it tells us that the first beast (KJV) says to John come and see. John tells us what he sees. I believe the first beast equates to the first seal, the second beast equates to the second and so forth. This brings some light on the fact that the first beast having the face of a lion is significant if the first seal in the Lord Jesus. He is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and it would be fitting that the first seal would be immediately opened and He would be the first seal because of His victory at the cross, and His being given all authority in heaven and earth.

The second seal would be 'religion' based on the horse being red, a great 'sword' was given to him (the sword of the spirit), and the second beast had the face of a calf, representing animal sacrifice which is bloody. Most of the world rejected Jesus and clung to their religious traditions which throughout the ages produced many wars.

The third seal is fuzzy for me, but the man, the face of the man represents God the Father who holds the scales in His
hands. He gives the decree about the wheat and barley, and says not to hurt the oil and the wine. If the oil is the remnant of Israel and the wine is the church, we know that that decree would last for so long, because we know believers will be put to death, not all but some for sure.

The fourth seal being opened by the fourth beast which has the face of an eagle represents the aftermath of a great war which will see many dead bodies and the birds of prey eating them.

Why would the Lord give us these in this way? I don't know if He would and if this is right. Maybe we put too much emphasis on the four living creatures. Maybe they were meant to represent these milestone type of events. There is much symbolism in the book. In any case God is an awesome God.

[Jericho]

The main difference between historicism and futurism, is that the historicist (like the futurist) is watching for prophetic events to occur, and when he feels a biblical prophetic event has come to pass ... he reports on it.

The futurist also watches, but most futurist prophecy teachers tend to attempt to tell us ... “what is going to happen” rather than what has happened.

This is the luxury of futurist authors ... considerable assumption and speculation ... however, it sells a lot of books to us students of prophecy.

I think that goes both ways. There is also considerable assumption and speculation in stating which prophetic events have already occurred. However, that is unavoidable as scriptures are not always clear on every subject, if it were we wouldn't be debating them now.

[canada]

Well said Jericho.

[keithareilly]

Canada wrote ...

Historicism ... some of Revelation has been fulfilled and some of Revelation yet to be fulfilled. EB Elliott Charles Spurgeon. Papacy one of the beasts and the Church of Rome the great harlot church described in Revelation.

I agree with: "some of Revelation has been fulfilled and some of Revelation yet to be fulfilled. However, "Papacy one of the beasts and the Church of Rome as the great harlot church described in Revelation" is a protestant perspective not a necessarily a good historical perspective.

Keith

[canada]

I appreciated your comment Jericho, but I spoke a little too soon.

Yes, it applies to both historicists and futurists but, with the historicist, we can examine and research his claim compared with scripture and historical events and conclude ... yes I believe what he says ... or ... I will have to think further about this ... or ... no, I am sure he is wrong and here is why ... presenting biblical and historical evidence against his claim.

With the prediction of the futurist this is much more difficult to prove or disprove.

Because what he claims is “going to happen", it is near impossible to prove him wrong ... because it “could” possibly happen.

Exaggerated example:

The numbered beast is coming from an alien planet ...he will have 666 on his forehead and his skin will be green.

Now, until a more logical and biblical personage arrives on the scene, the alien prediction, as improbable as it is, “could be correct” ... prove me wrong.

[keithareilly]

Canada,

What events in Revelation do you find match with historical events?

Personally, I think the answers and debates to such a question might require a historical view only in the study zone section of the board.

Keith

[shorttribber]

Just posting this for a quick reference for anybody looking to examine an historic perspective.

https://archive.org/details/commentarieuponb00durh

Will comment later as time permits too

[shorttribber]

When you get to Rev 6 and the seals are opened, it tells us that the first beast (KJV) says to John come and see. John tells us what he sees. I believe the first beast equates to the first seal, the second beast equates to the second and so forth. This brings some light on the fact that the first beast having the face of a lion is significant if the first seal in the Lord Jesus. He is the lion of the tribe of Judah, and it would be fitting that the first seal would be immediately opened and He would be the first seal because of His victory at the cross, and His being given all authority in heaven and earth.The second seal would be 'religion' based on the horse being red, a great 'sword' was given to him (the sword of the spirit), and the second beast had the face of a calf, representing animal sacrifice which is bloody. Most of the world rejected Jesus and clung to their religious traditions which throughout the ages produced many wars.The third seal is fuzzy for me, but the man, the face of the man represents God the Father who holds the scales in Hishands. He gives the decree about the wheat and barley, and says not to hurt the oil and the wine. If the oil is the remnant of Israel and the wine is the church, we know that that decree would last for so long, because we know believers will be put to death, not all but some for sure.

Hi SCB,
The thing I think you may be overlooking is that those "Beasts" or "Creatures" are actual Living creatures. That's what seems clear to me anyway. It doesn't appear that they should be understood as being Symbolic of any Activity or Persons Acting or Working upon earth at all.

These are described as ascribing Only Holiness to the Lord.......please read this small section...
Rev 4
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and Is, and is to come.

The fourth seal being opened by the fourth beast...............[continues]

The seals are all opened Only by the Lamb, not any of the beasts themselves.....they (4 creatures) only mention What is to be seen After the Lamb opens Each Seal Himself.

In a sense, you are getting close to understanding some key points, those points being, first, the white horse does not represent a coming Antichrist that will make a Peace Covenant with Israel.
Second, these seals (the First Three) speak of things Historic in nature, that Only Christ Was and Is Worthy to Allow to GO FORTH/PROCEED.

And it is Christ/The Lamb again, that Will Allow the coming Loser/antichrist to Proceed/Go Forth after He opens the Fourth Seal.

Then.........The Scroll WILL BE Fully Opened for OUR Understanding.........and the Great Trib will Commence .


more later...

Blessing to you dear brother, and to your dear wife

[shorttribber]

And Hello Canada,
Great thread. How are we to cover such massive subjects though as the entire Revelation to John?

Can we break it up in chunks, or can you lay out briefly your general view of it for us?

[sacredcowbasher]

Yeah I know ST that I am treading when referring to the living creatures as being symbolic, and I gave some leeway because of their being living. I know that you know about Ezekiel's vision as he stood by the river, the wheel in the middle of the wheel and so forth. It seems to be the same living creatures and their descriptions are the same for all intents and purposes.
These living creatures may represent a special purpose since we don't see or know about any like them anywhere else in scripture. All of God's creatures have purposes. My thinking in the case of these is that they may be 'symbolic' in the sense of telling us a story of sorts. You are right in that I misrepresented in saying that the beasts opened the seals, my bad. Of course they did not, they just guided John over to their respected seal. That is my quick posting and not being thorough. I say that they guided because the first beast is associated with the first seal imo, and the second beast with the second seal and so forth. There is a clear association here. I don't think we would take anything away from the living creature's dignity or glory if in fact they are associated with what we know as the four horsemen of the apocalypse (the first four seals). I do appreciate your concern in bringing up the point of their being living creatures. We serve an awesome and amazing God

[shorttribber]

I don't think we would take anything away from the living creature's dignity or glory if in fact they are associated with what we know as the four horsemen of the apocalypse (the first four seals).

No, their association does not, take anything from them at all, you're right. I only brought this out to show you the reason for that association. That reason is the Holiness, Glory and Worthiness of Christ Alone in the Opening of them.

It appears that That is their Only Purpose. Glory Glory Glory, Holy Holy, Holiness to the Lord Continually and for All Eternity.

Each representing Christ's Worthiness and Holiness Alone to Open the Seals. Each one, One at a time, doesn't touch the Seals..... Each one , one after the Other Only Speak, but Touch not the Seals.

[shorttribber]

With regard to how all of us should interpret Revelation, how shall we correctly interpret the word "Now" in the following text?

Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It is best, I think, to understand that "Now" is meant to be understood as Occurring right then, at That Exact Point.
In other words, the Kingdom of God Begins, right then and there, just as the text clearly says.

Canada, if you wish for me to begin a thread designed to discuss this matter alone, I will be happy to.

[Jay Ross]

ST you are right to say that the "Now" indicates that "when" Satan is thrown down to the earth when the Battle in Heaven is over that the "everlasting Kingdom of God is established on the Earth" right at that time and that Christ will also be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him. We are also told that when Satan is thrown down to the earth that he will be locked up in the bottomless pit for a period of 1,000 years after which he and those locked up with him during this same time period, will be released for a little while period during which time they will rage against the Saints/people of the earth.

Isaiah 24:21-22 Daniel 2:35, 44-45, 7:9-14, just to identify a few scriptural references from the OT also speaks of this time.

When the fallen heavenly hosts, including Satan are displaced from heaven, we are told that they will be punished after many days have passed such that the beast, the false prophet firstly followed then by Satan are thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the little while period.

The Book of Revelation is not difficult to interpret if we can see the gaps in time passed over in the prophetic record provided by the John in this Book.

Revelation 19 also speaks of the time when Christ is given dominion over the peoples of the earth and then jumps over 1,000+ years to the end of the Age where we are told that Christ deals with the Beast and the false prophet and throws them into the Lake of Fire.

Shalom

[canada]

THE BOOK OF REVELATION AND ITS INTERPRETATION

There are three common interpretations of this prophetic book:

Partial preterism ... most of Revelation has been fulfilled.
RC Sproul John Piper etc. ... Nero (Nrn Qsr) usually the numbered beast.

Historicism ... some of Revelation has been fulfilled and some of Revelation yet to be fulfilled. EB Elliott Charles Spurgeon. Papacy one of the beasts and the Church of Rome the great harlot church described in Revelation.

Futurism ... some of Revelation has been fulfilled but most has yet to be fulfilled. John Darby, C I Scofield, Hal Lindsay etc. I think the Jesuit priest Alcazar held to futurism as the finger of prophecy was starting to point to his church at that time.

There is another “interpretation” of Revelation called full preterism ... all prophecy has been fulfilled ... most consider this view heretical.

I was a futurist for ten years ... my books by futurist authors stack higher than myself.

I am now an historicist ... do they have all the answers? No, but I believe they are closer to the truth than the other isms.

The main difference between historicism and futurism, is that the historicist (like the futurist) is watching for prophetic events to occur, and when he feels a biblical prophetic event has come to pass ... he reports on it.

The futurist also watches, but most futurist prophecy teachers tend to attempt to tell us ... “what is going to happen” rather than what has happened.

This is the luxury of futurist authors ... considerable assumption and speculation ... however, it sells a lot of books to us students of prophecy.

The reason I started this thread was simply to point out the basic differences of the three common systems of interpreting the Book of Revelation, and not to actually discuss the subjects within this book, as Shorttriber noted, the subjects are massive.

I felt that it was "easier" to be a futurist rather than a partial preterist or historicist, because assumption and/or speculation is often used by authors for things that are "going to happen".

Looking back over the posts, I think it was only Jericho that actually addressed the initial subject.

[shorttribber]

yep, i musta missed the point of the thread...sorry bout that

[sacredcowbasher]

I'm sorry too

[canada]

No problem to you both ... I made a mistake ... once!!

[shorttribber]

No problem to you both ... I made a mistake ... once!!

That's not too bad....my mistakes run just about even with the national debt, that's somewhere near 20 trillion now I think.

[keithareilly]

Revelation is the story of the Church.
Its creation, its situation at the time of its writing, and what is to unfold until Christ returns.
It is reasonable to ask: "What prophecies in Revelation have been fulfilled during the last 2000 years?"

If it were not for the historcists belief that Mystery Babylon is the Catholic Church, I would accept the label "historicist".

Keith

[Jay Ross]

Canada

Understanding scripture is difficult when our paradigms of understanding is faulty.

Considering the way in which scripture has been used politically to demonise certain people groups or collections of people united in a common belief system by other people groups or collections of people, it is difficult to say which system of understanding the book of Revelation is satisfactory for explaining what the Book was intended to convey.

THE BOOK OF REVELATION AND ITS INTERPRETATION

There are three common interpretations of this prophetic book:

Partial preterism ... most of Revelation has been fulfilled.
RC Sproul John Piper etc. ... Nero (Nrn Qsr) usually the numbered beast.

Historicism ... some of Revelation has been fulfilled and some of Revelation yet to be fulfilled. EB Elliott Charles Spurgeon. Papacy one of the beasts and the Church of Rome the great harlot church described in Revelation.

Futurism ... some of Revelation has been fulfilled but most has yet to be fulfilled. John Darby, C I Scofield, Hal Lindsay etc. I think the Jesuit priest Alcazar held to futurism as the finger of prophecy was starting to point to his church at that time.

There is another “interpretation” of Revelation called full preterism ... all prophecy has been fulfilled ... most consider this view heretical.

<snip>

The issue that I see is that many people attempt to provide a "Humanistic" understanding of scripture and ignore the fact that there is a spiritual battle going on presently in heaven for control over God's creation and the people who were created by God to have dominion over the earth, to tend and care for the welfare of the whole earth.

There are fallen beasts in heaven trying to wreck havoc on the peoples of the earth through their spiritual "demonic influence" in opposition to the purposes of God. There are other beasts in heaven still loyal to God and His purposes and wonders who are still singing praises unto God and who, from time to time fulfil, God's purposes for the benefit of mankind.

Because of this "lack of understanding" any identified system, as you have labelled them above, is flawed, and that also includes what I have briefly presented above because we all look at scripture through glasses that are "dirty" which obscures what is plain in God's understanding, but remains a mystery because of what we are not able to clearly see in our understanding of the very word of God.

It was explained to my class at the Bible College I went to for a time, that although we may see the peaks of prophesied events rising up above the plains of the humdrum of our ordinary lives, our perception of time between these peaks of prophetic events is obscured from our view such that we are not able to comprehend the actual times when these prophetic events will occur. The written record of these revealed prophetic event peaks are condensed in their recording such that the time span between the events is not seen by the observer and as such the recorded events seem to follow each other as if there is no waiting for the time to unravel/roll out between the respective events.

These hidden time periods was written about recently on this forum with respect to Rev 12 where the chapter jumps 1000 years between verses 12 and 13 as if this time gap did not exist for John when he recorded what he could observe.

The interpretation systems you wrote about above are peoples attempt to understand what the future may hold for us.

To be able to explain this requires us to go to the respective texts themselves where these types of discontinuity in time occurs in the hope that others may be able to perceive also what we have been able to discern from the same scriptural passages.

If you do not want to have a discussion where these respective errors are found within the four interpretative systems that you mentioned above then I will desist from commenting further.

Shalom

[canada]

Jay,

It has been accepted by learned scholars and laypersons alike regarding the 4 "commonly accepted" systems for interpreting the Book of Revelation.

To discuss the various subjects within this book was not the purpose of this thread.

I have a great interest in "the key" of David Rev 3:7 the 24 elders, the two witnesses, the image mark and number of the beat, and the "new song" of the victors ... but they would each be a separate thread for best understanding.

You are right, I do not wish to discuss the various subjects but rather to note the various "systems" of interpretation of this very deep book, as many believers today are only aware of futurism.

I am not the brightest bulb in the socket, but I have very good genes.
I am a son of Mary David and Joseph ... he was a carpenter and still around at the age of 101

[Jay Ross]

Canada,

I believe that I was talking to the narrow topic of the interpretation systems that you listed.

I then went on to say that each of the 3 that you listed in bold, Partial preterism, Historicism and Futurism are flawed and that the 4th system that you mentioned, full preterism, but did not bold, is also flawed because of their respective base understanding of who the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are, the miss understood 1,000 years time gap, not written about, but is found between verse 18 and 19 of Daniel 7 after which there is a re-emergence of the four previous beasts as a single entity that increases the tribulation of the saints during the little while period of the Millennium Age.

Sadly, most people identify the manifestation of the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12 within humanity where people collectively have chosen to inhabit the respective domains of the four beasts, i.e. Babylon, Medes Persian, Greek and either the old understanding of the Roman Empire or the more recent understanding, the Islamic adherents, because this manifestation of the fourth beast is exhibited in many different people groups/nations.

When I equate the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 to demonic fallen heavenly hosts, I can make better sense of the reality that I am presently experiencing, and it opens up a very different possibility for understanding the Book of Revelation and the timeframe(s) contained within its pages.

It is my personal view that we need a better framework of understanding for the Book of Revelation which is reflective of our actual circumstances that the world is presently facing on which to build a better pictorial understanding of the prophecies contained within the Book of Revelation along with the other OT and NT prophecies covering the same time period.

We need to begin again with our understanding of the Whole Bible, not just the Book of Revelation.

Shalom

[canada]

Keith ... you said “If it were not for the historicists belief that Mystery Babylon is the Catholic Church, I would accept the label “historicist”.

Much information about historicism and its beliefs can be read at:
Historicist.com and ... historicism.net

Do they have all the answers? No, but I think they are closer to the truth regarding the interpretation of Revelation than partial preterism and futurism.

I would recommend all Protestants read:
“Papal Rome And The European Union” by Bennett and de Semlyen

Going from memory rather than my notes, but I am sure the initial meetings for the formation of the EEC ... (EU) were held within the walls of the Vatican.

The Treaty Of Rome (EEC/EU)

The three Catholic founders ... Konrad Adenauer, Alcide De Gaspen and Robert Schuman ... “three Catholic Christians with a great and clear awareness of the common good for which nationalist egoisms must be sacrificed, but also statesmen gifted with great political realism and wide vision”.

[shorttribber]

Shorttrib is Historicist and Futurist both.......with Correct Ideas Retained and Errant Ideas Removed from each of those two basic opinions.

The general idea of that is similar to what you also believe isn't it Canada?

Many parts of the Book of Revelation can be reasonably argued as Historic and a great deal of it still future.

[canada]

Yes Shorttriber ... there would be many things yet future that the historicist and futurist would agree upon.

However, until those things come to pass ... both systems could possibly be wrong about them.

[shorttribber]

Yes Shorttriber ... there would be many things yet future that the historicist and futurist would agree upon.

However, until those things come to pass ... both systems could possibly be wrong about them.

Yep, sep me of course No really...c'mon quit laughing


Now seriously, and laying all silliness aside, I do think that there is a good balance between historicism and futurism that exists in the shorttrib/prewrath position regarding True Bible Prophecy.

[keithareilly]

Canada wrote ...

I would recommend all Protestants read:
“Papal Rome And The European Union” by Bennett and de Semlyen

Read it. Not much I did not already know.

Brussels, being the capital of the EU, that united institution named after Europa, that woman who rode the bull (beast), just happens to built in seven hills.

From Wikipedia
Brussels, Belgium, said to be built on St.Michielsberg, Koudenberg, Warmoesberg, Kruidtuin, Kunstberg, Zavel and St.Pietersberg

You might also be interested that Brussels has a port, The Port of Brussels http://www.port.brussels/en where you can find the caption. "Port.Brussels a port and city as one".

While the Vatican is on the Tiber river, I am not aware of a port as referenced in Revelation.



Keith

[canada]

Very good points Keith!

Like much of Revelation ... we can only be sure after it comes to pass ... like the destruction of the city on seven hills.

[canada]

Keith,

Apparently Moscow and Seattle are built upon seven hills also but I think we could safely scratch them from the description.

My son in law pastors a very conservative Reformed church in Nebraska and they are partial preterist regarding Revelation. They believe Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem as supposedly it encompasses seven hills.

Regarding Rome as a port:

Google search resulted in ... Imperial Rome’s Great Ancient City. Historically it is documented as the Roman harbour city of Ostia, the vital town of maritime commerce near the sea at the mouth of the Tiber River.

From Wikipedia:
Ostia Antica is a large archeological site, close to the modern suburb of Ostia, that was the location of the harbour city of ancient Rome ... ...

From Wikipedia:
Portus was a large artificial harbour of ancient Rome ... ... Now back to Revelation:

We know that Rome is built upon seven hills ... and Vatican City is considered to be located within Rome making it part of the seven,

However, Rev 17:11 states:
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The Vaticanus hill is the eighth ... it is across the river from the seven hills and yet is of the seven.

I am not a futurist but expect the sooner than later destruction of Vatican City.
Time will tell.

[Exit40]

Seven hills of Istanbul. Istanbul is known as the City on the Seven Hills (Turkish: Yedi tepeli şehir). The city has inherited this denomination from Byzantine Constantinople which – consciously following the model of Rome – was built on seven hills too.

Seven hills of Istanbul - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Istanbul

God Bless

David

[Exit40]

In Istanbul, a mosque fit for a sultan | Reuters

www.reuters.com/article/uk-turkey-mosqu ... 1320121129

Nov 29, 2012 - The mosque will sit atop Camlica Hill, once a hunting ground for the ... Backers of the new mosque say they want to create a similar skyline on ...

Islam is the current religion of the sons of Ishmael. Mecca, the city at the center of that religin, doesn't sit on seven hills, but is surrounded by seven hills.

God Bless

David

[kirthril]

If you want to know the true location of this 7 hilled city, just reread Rev 17:1-3 closely

Babylon, the Prostitute on the Beast

17 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

1. John was taken to the wilderness
2. In the wilderness john sees a woman riding a beast
3. The beast has 7 heads and 10 horns
4. The woman is a city on 7 hills
5. The 7 hills are also 7 kingdoms of 7 historic empires.

Most people skip 1 and 5. This city sat in the midst of 7 historic empires. I am sorry but Brussels nor Rome sat in the midst of 7 historic empires (Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome, Ottoman).

2ndly this city is located in the wilderness. In the middle of nowhere. In a deserted region. No mans land. Desert. A forgotten place. Neither Rome nor Brussels are in a wilderness.

I will leave it at that