I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

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I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby kirthril on Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:46 am

Daniel 12:1-2
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as not happened from the beginning of nations till then. But at that time your people, everyone whose name is found written in the book, will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


So my question is this. I have been taught and always thought that at the second coming of Christ, when the rapture takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive and remain next. This is the first resurrection and we are told that we are blessed to be part of this as we will be with Christ eternally. That the second resurrection will be of the unbelieving dead at the white throne judgment.

So then what is Daniel 12:1-2 speaking of when it says that after the time of distress (the great tribulation) when the dead rise, both the righteous and unrighteous will rise? It says those whose names are found in the book will be delivered. This we know as the "Lambs book of life". Then it says multitudes will awaken some to everlasting life some to everlasting shame/contempt?

Am I missing something? Or is this just condensing the pre-millennial and post millennial resurrections into one sentence? Or am I overthinking this and shame/contempt is not the same as "destruction"?
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Exit40 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:49 am

Hi kirthril. Interesting question about the Resurrection/s, and may we then presume the following to be the Rapture/s of the Living ?

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. ...

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


The parables of Matthew 25 should probably be considered in light of this as the Great Tribulation is the qualifier of the timing, both in Daniel and Matthew. And the Sheep and Goat Judgement of the nations also. There must be a Millennial Kingdom in here somewhere, but it is difficult to see in these verses. Unless we consider this verse as meaning the Millennium ...

at 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Does the Eternal State have to be the only result of the Resurrection/Rapture ? Or can the Millennial Kingdom be that result for some ?

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:47 pm

I think the problem is in how one interprets the "first" resurrection and the "second". In my opinion and I believe scripture supports this idea, they are not ordinal values, but rather represent a conditional value. The "first kind of resurrection is for believers, it is the resurrection to life eternal, while the second kind of resurrection is for judgement. There are more than one of the first kind, for instance- Jesus was the first born of the dead, the first to be resurrected to life, the first type of resurrection. Then the dead in Christ will be raised also unto eternal life, followed by the two witnesses and then the tribulation martyrs, and finally those righteous who will die during the millennial reign of Christ. There is however only one resurrection unto judgement which occurs at the end of the millennial reign.

Two kinds of resurrection- one to life and one to judgement, not just two resurrections as in one followed by the other.

RT
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:43 am

If you go into Ezekiel 34? there will be a separation of the one flock from another, and my understanding of this separation is that it separates out those who call Jesus Lord, from those who do not. This separation is of all the people who have, and had, been born at the time of Christ's return at the end of the Millennium Age around the time of the Gog Magog battle. After this separation of the flock from the flock, it will be followed by the separation of the Rams from the He goats. This is retold by Jesus in the Matthew 25: Judgement of the Nations Parable at the end of this chapter and provides a little more information of what will unfold at this point in the history of mankind.

The sad thing is that many people put the Parable of the Judgement of the Nations/the Sheep and the Goat parable at the beginning of the Millennium Age based on their perceived understanding of the End Times which sadly does not aline with what is recorded within the scriptures.

That just happens to be their current way of thinking at the moment.

Shalom
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Seeker on Sun Jul 17, 2016 10:45 pm

Hi kirthril,

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby kirthril on Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:08 pm

Seeker wrote:Hi kirthril,

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Peace,
Seeker

Thanks all for the replies.

And Seeker. Just wow. Still stunning how much I have been mistaught and have to reconfigure my understanding of the end times. 10 years now and my view has shifted dramatically from what I was brought up and even still, as I learn, it seems that the end...

will play out far differently than I what I previously expected.
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Seeker on Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:23 pm

Hi kirthril,

will play out far differently than I what I previously expected.


I hear you there. I started out pre-trib read more of prophecy and migrated to mid-trib. Studied more and moved to Pre-Wrath for a short period and now have landed in what I call Post-Wrath. Since you are beginning to see a bit differently read this parable closely.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


I would also recommend studying the wheat/tare parable and the interpretation that Jesus gives for it. It says the same thing as the Net parable it is just much easier to see in the net parable.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:43 pm

Hello

If you link the Parable of the Sower with Ezekiel 47:1-12 it suggests that the end of the Millennium Age will be around 4,000 years after Solomon dedicated the temple when the River of Life tumbles over the escarpment down to the wet lands and heals them. The last 1,000 years/cubits of Ezekiel 47:1-12 is the same time period as the sower planting seed in Good ground.

The time of judgement/punishment for all who do not measure up to God's standards occurs at the end of the 4,000 years from the time of God filling Solomon's Temple when it was dedicated. This is the time of the Great White throne room judgement which is then followed by the Judgement of the Nations, The Parable of the Separation of the Sheep and the Goats.

All are resurrected, but not all enter into Eternity; those that are unrighteous are sent into the Lake of fire to spent the rest of their lives in regret.

Shalom
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:39 am

kirthril wrote:So my question is this. I have been taught and always thought that at the second coming of Christ, when the rapture takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive and remain next. This is the first resurrection and we are told that we are blessed to be part of this as we will be with Christ eternally. That the second resurrection will be of the unbelieving dead at the white throne judgment.


Hi Kirthril,

You are absolutely right in your thinking here. All one has to do is read what is mentioned in Scripture. There is absolutely an order of Resurrections - and they Don't happen at the same time.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


The aforementioned verses of Scripture has to harmonize with the REST of Scripture. If you'll notice, there is absolutely nothing mentioned that the "hour" of those that here His Voice has to occur at the same time. This hour can span over a period of time .........as in 1,000 years. So please do not be deceived. Again, there is an order of Resurrections. Even the Two Witnesses have their own Special Resurrection. And why would the Book of Revelation specifically mention the word: "First Resurrection" if there were only one general resurrection?

In closing, you have those who want to make this one general resurrection - however, when it comes to explaining how the Millennial Kingdom will be repopulated for the final Gog/Magog war mentioned in Revelation 20 - when those who have been deceived by Satan after he is let loose for a little season - they will tell you they are those in immortal bodies. Well this is impossible - as Christ Himself said that "in the Resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage." (Matthew 22:30)

Matthew 22:30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.


So those in resurrected bodies cannot reproduce offspring.

Furthermore, if you will read Zechariah 14:16-19 it gives you a clear picture of those who attack Jerusalem in the Day of Lord who survive will be required to worship the King yearly - or they will get no rain for their crops. This is in the Millennial Kingdom.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:07 am

did a study on this topic a while ago posted here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=56454&hilit=

RT
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Seeker on Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:14 am

Christians are raptured and live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years at the beginning of the 1,000 years so they can't repopulate the earth they are in their resurrected bodies. But there are others on earth who are not in their resurrected bodies because they didn't believe in Christ but are still God's people.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


God gathers the remnant of Israel back to Israel they are sufficeint to repopulate the earth during the millennium.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Seeker on Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:20 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Even the Two Witnesses have their own Special Resurrection. And why would the Book of Revelation specifically mention the word: "First Resurrection" if there were only one general resurrection?


Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


The two witnesses are resurrected just before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. When do the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord? At the end of the 70th week or end of last 7 years. That is around the time of Armageddon just as we see in both Rev 16 and Rev 19.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Jesus describes His coming as a thief right before Armageddon and the 7th vial judgment and we see Him leaving heaven on a white horse to defeat the AC and FP at Armageddon. The resurrection/rapture cannot occur until Jesus returns and we can plainly see in Rev 19 that Jesus returns at the time of the battle of Armageddon. The two witnesses have a 3 1/2 year ministry that ends just before the time the kingdoms of the world become Christ's. That would place their ministry at the end of the last 7 years starting somewhere around the 3.5 year mark. The AOD occurs then so that might be why they begin their public ministry then. Regardless they are killed near the end of the last 7 years so their resurrection would be in the same time frame I say the resurrection is in.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Seeker on Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:16 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy,

And why would the Book of Revelation specifically mention the word: "First Resurrection" if there were only one general resurrection?


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Do you think that everyone in this resurrection are sinners or are there those who will go to heaven in this group also?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:30 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:did a study on this topic a while ago posted here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=56454&hilit=

RT


Hi RT,

I have read your study on the "Order of Resurrections" - and for the most part I agree with a lot of what you have mentioned. You do however have a problem with the presentation in that you seem to imply that there is a "Pre-Tribulation" Rapture prior to the Return of Christ.

As I continued to read what you posted, I must say that you have some valid points as to the Harvests, as it "may" relate to the "Order of Resurrections". There absolutely is an "Order of Resurrections" - but what most don't see is that the First Resurrection contains a series of Resurrections in itself - yet still considered to be the "First Resurrection".

I'd really like to know that with the passages of Scripture you presented how you came up with this:

Those who are Christ’s at His coming:
These children represent the next group in the order of the resurrection, those who are Christ’s at His coming. These are those who will come to Christ during the tribulation, who will be martyred because of their testimony, and will not take the mark of the beast, John sees this group appear in the heavenly tabernacle after their resurrection here:


Your reference your aforementioned comments with this passage of Scripture:

Revelation 15:2
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.


You further stated this:

Their resurrection itself is recorded here:

Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Now, I certainly don't want to bog this particular Topic down with a lot of rhetorical nonsense and non-ending references that may or may not relate to the point I'm trying to illustrate - as most people don't read a lot of LONG WINDED points of view - however, I would like to know how you determined that "Those who are Christ’s at His coming" are limited to: "These children represent the next group in the order of the resurrection" as you mentioned above. This most certainly seems to contradict what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3:

1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the Day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed


You referenced Revelation 15:2 and Revelation 20:4-6 which most certainly mentions the "Tribulation Saints" in that they were "beheaded/martyred" - but have a "VERY SPECIFIC" Resurrection in that Scripture describes them as: "AND THEY LIVED"; (Revelation 20:4). There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they were "Caught up in the Air - or Gathered together to Him" at His Coming. At this POINT He is no longer Coming - HE'S HERE and seated on the Throne as mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

This is the only part that I have disagreed with your study.......what say ye?
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:28 am

I'd really like to know that with the passages of Scripture you presented how you came up with this:

Those who are Christ’s at His coming:
These children represent the next group in the order of the resurrection, those who are Christ’s at His coming. These are those who will come to Christ during the tribulation, who will be martyred because of their testimony, and will not take the mark of the beast, John sees this group appear in the heavenly tabernacle after their resurrection here:


Your reference your aforementioned comments with this passage of Scripture:

Revelation 15:2
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.


You further stated this:

Their resurrection itself is recorded here:

Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


Now, I certainly don't want to bog this particular Topic down with a lot of rhetorical nonsense and non-ending references that may or may not relate to the point I'm trying to illustrate - as most people don't read a lot of LONG WINDED points of view - however, I would like to know how you determined that "Those who are Christ’s at His coming" are limited to: "These children represent the next group in the order of the resurrection" as you mentioned above. This most certainly seems to contradict what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3:

1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the Day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed


You referenced Revelation 15:2 and Revelation 20:4-6 which most certainly mentions the "Tribulation Saints" in that they were "beheaded/martyred" - but have a "VERY SPECIFIC" Resurrection in that Scripture describes them as: "AND THEY LIVED"; (Revelation 20:4). There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that they were "Caught up in the Air - or Gathered together to Him" at His Coming. At this POINT He is no longer Coming - HE'S HERE and seated on the Throne as mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

This is the only part that I have disagreed with your study.......what say ye?
Mr Baldy


Hi Mr. Baldy, thank you for taking the time to read my study and to comment on it.

I will do my best to answer in as few words as possible....

Okay first of all if you read my study then you will note that there are clearly three groups mentioned in the order of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15), the "Christ first fruits", followed by those that "belong to Christ at his coming" followed by those when "the end shall come". A simple reading of the Revelation also follows this same pattern, the multitudes around the throne in Revelation 7, followed by those martyred during the tribulation in Revelation 15 and 20a, followed by the great white throne in Revelation 20b. The progression given in 1 Corinthians 15 is born out in the Revelation. However one has to read the events of the Revelation linearly to arrive at that conclusion. If not there would appear to be conflicts.

Secondly the passage in 2 Thessalonians seems to be what throws you off, because it seems to link the in-gathering with Christ's visible return to earth. I would point out that the passage no where talks about being gathered together in the air, though that is beside the point really. The Thessalonians were erroneously being told that the day of the Lord had already come. They must have wondered why they were still there, why hadn't they been gathered to the Lord? Were they found unworthy?

Paul lays out to the Thessalonians the signposts leading up to the day of the Lord, which begins when the Lord visibly returns, they would have had to have witnessed all these signs if they had missed it. Paul writes to the church at Thessaloniki concerning the coming of the Lord and the in-gathering (rapture/resurrection), he isn't necessarily saying that it is one event, the "coming of the Lord" in my opinion is when the day of the Lord commences, that is the issue that was foremost on their minds, that they had missed it, so Paul in his letter addresses that first. Then because they believed the Day of the Lord had already come, they were believing that they had missed the gathering in to Christ, so Paul addresses that next. I In no way see a conflict here. Again what makes the difference is how you interpret the passage. I believe that Paul tells them exactly when in the order of events they could expect to be gathered in to Christ when he says:

2 Thessalonians 2:5-7
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.


They could expect to be gathered to Christ before the Antichrist is revealed. I believe that there will be two comings of Christ, one in the air to gather the church, and one on the ground when Christ comes to avenge the righteous and assume his earthly throne. The church would be looking for that first coming, when Christ would come in the air to gather them in via rapture/ resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Acts 1:9; Rev 11:12), the scripture indicates that when the dead are raised that they are received into a cloud and taken to heaven, while the enemies of God look on in fear. Which is by the way what I think is happening at the opening of the sixth seal (Rev 6:14-17) when many who remain on earth will again believe falsely that the day of the Lord has come.

Lastly we are not told the exact means that God uses to translate the tribulation saints into the kingdom, but I would assume that it would look similar to what takes place when the two witnesses are raised (Rev 11:7-14). There will be a great earthquake (Rev 16:18), they will stand up out of their graves and a cloud will receive them to carry them to heaven all in view of the people left on earth.

Revelation 20:4
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


John first sees them as souls, without a resurrected body, but then he says they come to life, and reign with Christ for 1000 years. This event happens just before Christ begins to reign, and according to the passage the souls are raised after the false prophet and Antichrist are cast into the lake of fire and after Satan is bound. Which would be in agreement with the order of the resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.


Christ returns to earth, slays the enemy, casts the false prophet and the beast AKA Antichrist into the lake of fire, locks up Satan, then the dead who died during the tribulation as martyrs are raised (all these events could happen on the same day) and then Christ assumes His throne. (Rev 19:11- 20: 4)

The phrase "to be gathered to Christ" is equivalent to being raised into heaven, whether it be by rapture or resurrection. The grain is gathered into the barn = the people are gathered into the heavenly tabernacle.

Hope this helps


RT
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:28 pm

Hi RT,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. I still however do very much disagree with it. You provided this verse of Scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24) then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.


The aforementioned Scripture alone provides pretty solid evidence that there is NO Pre-Tribulation Rapture - as it clearly lays out the 1st order of the Resurrection. There is no separation in this, meaning Christ doesn't secretly take out some believers at a prior Coming then get other believers at His Physical Coming.

Again, I thank you for your explanation. :mrgreen:
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:08 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi RT,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. I still however do very much disagree with it. You provided this verse of Scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24) then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.


The aforementioned Scripture alone provides pretty solid evidence that there is NO Pre-Tribulation Rapture - as it clearly lays out the 1st order of the Resurrection. There is no separation in this, meaning Christ doesn't secretly take out some believers at a prior Coming then get other believers at His Physical Coming.

Again, I thank you for your explanation. :mrgreen:


You are free to disagree, :mrgreen: but I wonder if you could explain. Why do you say that this verse is evidence against a pre trib rapture? I rather see it as evidence that points to it:

Three distinct groups are mentioned here, all three are of the first order, which is the resurrection of the righteous unto life.

1. Christ the first fruits: the body of Christ AKA the church- raised before His coming

2. Those who belong to Him at His coming: the tribulation saints raised at His coming

3. Those who are raised when He hands the Kingdom over to the Father: the millennial kingdom saints who will be raised at the white throne judgement along with the wicked.


RT
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:18 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Three distinct groups are mentioned here, all three are of the first order, which is the resurrection of the righteous unto life.1. Christ the first fruits: the body of Christ AKA the church- raised before His coming2. Those who belong to Him at His coming: the tribulation saints raised at His coming3. Those who are raised when He hands the Kingdom over to the Father: the millennial kingdom saints who will be raised at the white throne judgement along with the wicked.


Hi RT,

Certainly with all due respect - but your aforementioned comments are truly a great example of "READING INTO" Scripture.

Let me begin by saying that your 1st Example is what I believe is in Gross Error - which has apparently caused a domino effect in the way you have erroneously interpreted this passage of Scripture. "Christ the firstfruits" simply means that HE was FIRST in the order of Resurrection. Firstfruits means that HE was the FIRST to be Resurrected to His Glorious Body that we shall obtain (be like) when we are Resurrected. Firstfruits is NOT referring to the Body of Christ as you have mentioned - as verse 23 goes on to say: AFTER that those who are Christ’s at His coming. This means AFTER the Firstfruits which IS and/or describes CHRIST then those (we) will be Resurrected at His Coming.

Secondly, you seem to ONLY include the Tribulation Saints to be Resurrected at His Coming - which doesn't jive up with the rest of Scripture.

Third - in your 3rd example I believe you have it partially right. Scripture gives us absolutely no timeframe at all when the Millennial Saints are Resurrected. We do know however through reasonable deduction that it HAS to be prior to the Great White Throne Judgment as Revelation 20:5 states:

Revelation 20:5 - New King James Version (NKJV)

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the First Resurrection.


In other words, AFTER the thousand years have finished - it COMPLETES the First Resurrection - so it is impossible for those who are in mortal bodies in the Millennial Kingdom to be excluded from the First Resurrection. This would include ALL of the Righteous - as Scripture indicates "Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the First Resurrection."

Revelation 20:6 - New King James Version (NKJV)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the First Resurrection. Over such the second death has No Power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


So, as you should be able to plainly see the Righteous will NOT be raised with the Wicked. The completion of the order for the Righteous ends prior to the end of the Millennial Rein of Christ and is subsequently called the First Resurrection. The GWTJ is for the Wicked Dead and Scripture describes them as "did not live again until the thousand years were finished." So it would be an error to include ANY Righteous in any form of a Resurrection POST Millennial Kingdom - and especially among the Wicked such as you have. Finally, as I have shown - there is no example of those "being raised when He hands over the Kingdom to God".

The END Comes AFTER the Judgment of the Wicked DEAD at the GWTJ. There are no Righteous there. Christ will have Destroyed the "Last Enemy" - which is Death at the GWTJ. Then He hands over the Kingdom to the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:46 pm

Hi Mr Baldy,

I wonder did you read my study or just skim through it? Because I address all your concerns there. But for the sake of others I will say that I do not at all see error where you claim.

The passage regarding the order of the resurrection does say that Christ was first but if you take the whole passage in context you will see that the "Christ first fruits" is indeed speaking toward another group other than Christ alone.

1 Corinthians 15:20-26
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


You will notice that verse 20 says that Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. The subject is Christ and His resurrection. But the subject in verse 23 is found in verse 22, "So also in Christ all will be made alive".....but each in his own order. The Christ first fruits is a subset of "all who will be made alive" in Christ. It is not reiterating Christ's resurrection, but rather speaks toward the resurrection of His body (as I explain in depth in my study).
Colossians 1:18
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


We are Christ's body, he as the head of the church was the first born from the dead, we as His body will follow Him in our "birth" from the dead. You can't separate the head from the body during birth. The head is born first followed by the delivery of the body. If the head is a first fruit, then the body that is born after the head is also a first fruit. The Church is throughout scripture identified as being Christ, even by Christ Himself. The "Christ the first fruits" is part of the "all who will be made alive" in Christ and therefore cannot be a reference to Christ alone.

As for your second disagreement, I would suggest that scripture gives us a strong clue as to when the millennial saints are raised. again if you actually read my study you would see why I say this.
Revelation 20:11-13
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.


No where here does it say that all of the dead who are raised are wicked, in fact we see where there souls are raised from: death and hades, which we know is the place where the souls of the wicked reside awaiting their punishment, and then we have those souls that were given up by the "sea". Hmmm... the sea gave up its dead? So is the ocean on earth the place where dead souls reside awaiting their resurrection? There is no president for that anywhere in scripture. But there is however another sea that John has spoken of throughout the Revelation, it is the sea like crystal. And you will note that every time John mentions that sea, it is in relation to a resurrection event. The multitudes appear on it in Revelation 7, standing before the throne, which is where he describes the sea as being in chapter 4, he also describes the tribulation saints as standing on it in Chapter 15. This sea is not some earthbound body of water, it is the heavenly sea that John describes in the Revelation. It is what I believe is an inter-dimensional kind of portal, where the souls of the righteous reside until all are resurrected and there is no more need for it (Rev 21:1). Death and Hades are in the spiritual dimension and so too is the "sea".

Also when you look at this parable it fits perfectly with the white throne Judgement, at the time of the harvest the tares are gathered up first and burned, then the wheat is gathered into God's "barn". We know that there is only one time shown to us in scripture when the wicked are judged and "burned"/ punished, and that is after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Therefore this parable must be referencing the white throne judgement. It is clear that the tares are gathered first to be burned and then the wheat is gathered. Remember the term "gathering" is code for a resurrection event.

Matthew 13:27-30
27 “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29 “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”


As for this:

Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


This clearly points out that those who are resurrected at this time are tribulation saints, they were beheaded for their testimony(died as martyrs) they did not worship the beast or his image or receive the mark, so these most certainly are only the tribulation saints. The "first resurrection" is again not an ordinal value, but rather the first kind of resurrection, again I spell this all out in detail in my study so I will not reiterate it all here,except to say that there are two kinds of resurrection- one to life, for the righteous, and one to punishment which is the second kind, for the wicked. Those who are raise to life whenever they are raised are classified as those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. So those who are raised as Christ first fruits, who are considered the church, and His body are part of the first resurrection, the two witnesses are part of the first resurrection, the tribulation saints are part of the first resurrection. And the Millennial saints will be part of that first resurrection too. The wicked are all raised together they are part of the second kind of resurrection- unto punishment.

Respectfully submitted

RT
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:56 pm

Finally, as I have shown - there is no example of those "being raised when He hands over the Kingdom to God".


Um, so how do the wicked get there?

John 5:28-29
28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Acts 24:15
15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


Matthew 25:31-46, the sheep and goats passage comes to mind as an example. The sheep are gathered on the right of the Lord as He sits on his throne and the goats on the left, the sheep after being commended for their actions enter into eternal life but the goats after being condemned for their lack of action enter into everlasting punishment; sounds a lot like the white throne judgement to me.

Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


After the judgment, the kingdom would be handed over because as the passage says:
1 Corinthians 15:25-26
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


We know when that happens don't we? AT the great white throne judgement.
Revelation 20:14
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.




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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:00 pm

Hi RT,

Now lets take a look at what you have written:

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I wonder did you read my study or just skim through it? Because I address all your concerns there. But for the sake of others I will say that I do not at all see error where you claim.


Yes I did read your study - I agree with some of it, but you have some errors as well - at least in my very humble opinion.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The passage regarding the order of the resurrection does say that Christ was first but if you take the whole passage in context you will see that the "Christ first fruits" is indeed speaking toward another group other than Christ alone.


This is a matter of interpretation. Christ ALONE is the FIRST FRUITS - period. Scripture goes on to say AFTER THAT those who are His at His Coming (1 Corinthians 15:23) - so you may want to revisit that verse.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:As for your second disagreement, I would suggest that scripture gives us a strong clue as to when the millennial saints are raised. again if you actually read my study you would see why I say this.

Revelation 20:11-13 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.


Again, RT I have read your study - I disagree with it. You have provided Revelation 20:11-13 as your evidence as to when the Millennial Saints are raised - well I DO NOT see that mentioned in the aforementioned passages of Scripture. You are "reading into" something that is not there. These verses have SPECIFICALLY mentioned the DEAD. Namely the WICKED DEAD as this is AFTER the Millennial Reign of Christ and the FIRST RESURRECTION has already occurred. No Righteous will appear at the GWTJ.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:No where here does it say that all of the dead who are raised are wicked, in fact we see where there souls are raised from: death and hades, which we know is the place where the souls of the wicked reside awaiting their punishment, and then we have those souls that were given up by the "sea". Hmmm... the sea gave up its dead? So is the ocean on earth the place where dead souls reside awaiting their resurrection?


I will have to agree with your aforementioned statement in "Part". You are absolutely right No where does is say at the GWTJ that all of the dead are wicked. But lets do take a look at what Scripture says about the FIRST RESURRECTION - which occurs BEFORE the Millennial Kingdom ends.

5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


The aforementioned passages of Scripture is very CLEAR. You are trying to have a special Resurrection for the Millennial Saints and the Wicked DEAD together at the GWTJ - well that is contrary to Scripture. The Millennial Saints will have a special Resurrection - however it will not be with the WICKED Dead at the GWTJ as it is NOT a part of the First Resurrection. Nor can you have a special Resurrection for those who have died in the sea either. If those who have died in the sea are Righteous - then they will be Resurrected when He Comes. If those who have died in the sea are Wicked - then they will be Resurrected at the GWTJ. It's just that simple.

Now you write this:

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Also when you look at this parable it fits perfectly with the white throne Judgement, at the time of the harvest the tares are gathered up first and burned, then the wheat is gathered into God's "barn". We know that there is only one time shown to us in scripture when the wicked are judged and "burned"/ punished, and that is after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Therefore this parable must be referencing the white throne judgement. It is clear that the tares are gathered first to be burned and then the wheat is gathered. Remember the term "gathering" is code for a resurrection event.


RT - have you seriously compared the Sheep & Goats Judgment and the GWTJ? I mean seriously? There are vast differences. Matthew 25:31-46 shows the Sheep & Goats Judgment which occurs PRIOR to the Millennial Reign of Christ - and AT HIS COMING. The wicked "go away into eternal punishment" or to a "holding cell" - it does NOT describe them as receiving the second death - which is the Lake of Fire. This is HADES (holding cell) where they will await the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. It is a place of "weeping & gnashing of teeth" - which is NOT described as an event occurring in the Lake of Fire. So this is NOT referencing the GWTJ which occurs 1,000 years later - where "Books are open" to include the "Book of Life" - and where Death and HADES are subsequently thrown into. So again, there is a VAST difference between these two Judgments. Please understand the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Hades is clearly defined as a "holding cell" - and "where the worm dieth not" and a "place of torment" - this is where the Wicked AWAIT the 2nd Death, which occurs at the GWTJ. After this it ALL ENDS.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jul 24, 2016 8:45 pm

RT - have you seriously compared the Sheep & Goats Judgment and the GWTJ? I mean seriously? There are vast differences. Matthew 25:31-46 shows the Sheep & Goats Judgment which occurs PRIOR to the Millennial Reign of Christ - and AT HIS COMING. The wicked "go away into eternal punishment" or to a "holding cell" - it does NOT describe them as receiving the second death - which is the Lake of Fire. This is HADES (holding cell) where they will await the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. It is a place of "weeping & gnashing of teeth" - which is NOT described as an event occurring in the Lake of Fire. So this is NOT referencing the GWTJ which occurs 1,000 years later - where "Books are open" to include the "Book of Life" - and where Death and HADES are subsequently thrown into. So again, there is a VAST difference between these two Judgments. Please understand the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Hades is clearly defined as a "holding cell" - and "where the worm dieth not" and a "place of torment" - this is where the Wicked AWAIT the 2nd Death, which occurs at the GWTJ. After this it ALL ENDS.
Mr Baldy


Yes I have seriously compared the two, you accuse me of "reading into scripture" yet you yourself do exactly that. No where in the passage does it say that the goats are put into a holding cell, or that the passage refers to the beginning of the millenial reign. Could it not also be true of its end? Christ will sit on His throne at the white throne judgement won't He? And you claim that when death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire that it all ends? The wicked are destroyed? They are not punished eternally? I know there is a difference between Hades and the Lake of fire, but to me the passage appears to fit perfectly with the GWTJ. Just because the sheep and goats passage doesn't spell it all out and use the same terminology doesn't mean it isn't the same event. Remember 1000 years is as a day to God, when Jesus comes He will sit on His throne, and at the end of that day He will still be seated on His throne and will gather all the nations before His throne and separate the sheep from the goats, and JUDGE them.

Matthew 25:46
46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


The righteous sheep "depart" into eternal life, the wicked goats depart into eternal punishment.

It does not say they go into a holding place, but into eternal life, into eternal punishment. Sure that could begin in paradise and Hades but it also could be the final judgement. Which in my opinion is a more obvious match.

I see a problem with putting this at the start of the millennium and here is why:

This is a judgement that takes place before the throne of Christ, with all the nations gathered before Him, and out of these that are gathered there is a separation of the righteous from the wicked (just like the tares and wheat parable). To the righteous sheep He says "come... inherit the Kingdom prepared for you", now this could mean the millennial kingdom, though we know that later on He clarifies by stating that they go into eternal life. To the wicked goats He says "‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" This fire prepared for the devil and the angels, sounds a lot like the lake of fire to me:

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


The goats are commanded to depart from the presence of Christ into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Not into Hades, because that is not the place prepared for the devil and his angels. In fact we see that up until the millennium Satan is walking about freely, and even in heaven to accuse the righteous, until he is cast out of heaven and down to earth during the 70th week. At the start of the millennium he is locked in the abyss (Rev 20: 1-3 ,no mention of fire in that passage by the way). We know what the eternal fire is that is prepared for Satan and his angels, it cannot be Hades, because Hades is not eternal, it is cast into the lake of fire also, therefore it must be the lake of fire. And you will note that the punishment is eternal, it doesn't just "all end". Those cast into the lake of fire are tormented day and night forever! Seems like there would be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth if that is the case, don't you think???

You also write this in the other thread which relates to this point:
To say someone will live forever after they die is contrary to Scripture - and is highly Oxymoronic.


I mean really? Listen to what you have said here, don't we as believers live forever after we die? It is completely compatible with scripture. There is a serious flaw in your reasoning here. Punishment is eternal, the wicked are resurrected, that means that they come to life, in fact the passage in Revelation 20 says that the rest of the dead will not come to life until after the 1000 years, that would include the wicked. They aren't just brought back to life as mortals, they are brought back to life as immortals. Their souls are raised into bodies that are immortal, it is the very thing that sets a resurrection event apart from being raised from the dead, like Lazarus was. The second death is an eternal punishment, not temporary. Torment day and night forever! For punishment to be eternal, those wicked raised to life would also have to be eternal in order to be punished eternally. Eternal does mean never ending does it not? Death in this life does not spell the end does it? Our souls go on to reside somewhere don't they? Whether we are counted as among the righteous or the wicked? The second death, is eternal except those who must endure it will do so, not as a soul, but with an eternal body.


In any case there is only one place in scripture where we see the devil cast into fire and punished and that is at the GWTJ and that "fire" is the lake of fire. And if the goats are told to depart into that fire, then they too must go into the lake of fire. Therefore the sheep and goats passage can only be referring to the end of the millennium not its beginning.


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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:30 am

Hi RT,

You wrote:

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The second death is an eternal punishment


You are absolute right - and you prove my point!

It is an eternal punishment - NOT an eternal PUNISHING!

That is why it is called the second death - it's FINAL!

However, Annihilation, which has been discussed many times here - and a subject I wholeheartedly agree with is another topic. If you would like to begin another thread on it then I'm in. :mrgreen:
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:11 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi RT,

You wrote:

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The second death is an eternal punishment


You are absolute right - and you prove my point!

It is an eternal punishment - NOT an eternal PUNISHING!

That is why it is called the second death - it's FINAL!

However, Annihilation, which has been discussed many times here - and a subject I wholeheartedly agree with is another topic. If you would like to begin another thread on it then I'm in. :mrgreen:



PunishING punishMENT- same thing. The important bit is that it is eternal, how do you not see that " tormented day and night for ever" as eternal punishING. And yes you're right that is a topic for a separate discussion. In any case you cannot deny that the passage concerning the goats and sheep does appear to indicate the GWTJ and does not happen at the start of the millennium.

RT
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:52 am

The aforementioned passages of Scripture is very CLEAR. You are trying to have a special Resurrection for the Millennial Saints and the Wicked DEAD together at the GWTJ - well that is contrary to Scripture. The Millennial Saints will have a special Resurrection - however it will not be with the WICKED Dead at the GWTJ as it is NOT a part of the First Resurrection. Nor can you have a special Resurrection for those who have died in the sea either. If those who have died in the sea are Righteous - then they will be Resurrected when He Comes. If those who have died in the sea are Wicked - then they will be Resurrected at the GWTJ. It's just that simple.


Can you please point me to the passage in the Revelation that shows this special resurrection of the millennial saints?


Why would it be contrary to scripture to have the righteous raised at the same time as the wicked? The righteous resurrection is always of the first order, the first kind of resurrection. There is no reason that God cannot raise the wicked at the same time as the righteous. The righteous no matter when they are raised are raised according to the first (kind of) resurrection. Again I do not believe that it denotes ordinal value, but rather conditional value, which I explain in detail in my study. The righteous are raised to life eternal, the wicked are raised to death eternal.

Let's look at the passage that speaks about the sea:
Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


It doesn't say that people died in the sea, rather it says that the sea gave up its dead. Well who and what are these "dead". We only need to look a few passages earlier to know:
Revelation 20:4-5
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.


They are souls of the dead- SOULS, not dead bodies. The "sea" is a repository for the souls of the dead, just like death and hades are. To me this is painfully obvious, John repeatedly describes the crystal sea, which stands in stark contrast to the lake of fire. Why anyone would interpret this "sea" as being a literal body of water on earth is beside me.(I could do a study on this topic alone). Anyway I would suggest that these souls are of the righteous millennial saints. I would also theorize that paradise resides within the "sea" until the millennium is finished and death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. Death and hades give up their dead, they come to life as we are told in the previous passage, and the sea also gives up its dead, which also come to life and anyone's name who was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are found in the book of life inherit eternal life. I would also point out something I just noticed: that the identification of the "first resurrection" in verse 5 above comes after the mention of the rest of the dead coming to life after the 1000 years are complete. Could that mean that those dead might be included in that first kind of resurrection? Maybe not, but it is interesting.

Mr. Baldy you and I have had a few good goes over the years in the debate forum, I appreciate your tenacity, and your obvious care for God's word. But you interpret in light of a very different foundation than I do. For instance as you stated you believe in Annihilation, I do not, you have invested what appears to be years of study with a foundation that cannot accept a pre trib rapture and you interpret in light of that prediliction. When I started my study of prophecy I was actually more in line with a mid trib or pre wrath veiw. But after careful study I changed my mind, but I will admit that I too interpret in light of what I have come to believe. That is what makes for debates in the first place. I respect you for trying to convince me, and I hope you do the same, but I know I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. But by all means carry on the debate, because who knows, maybe one of us will change someone else's mind. I just wanted you to know that I think you are awesome, and I appreciate our debates, it makes me think, it drives me to the word, which is always a good thing.And I would encourage others to go to the word yourselves to see if what any of us here in the debate forum is saying lines up, study for yourselves. We are all in this together!


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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:17 am

I'm reading this right now and wonder if it might be of help here.

Eternal Reward and Punishments: A Fresh, Biblical Look at God's Love and Justice in Heaven and Hell
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Spreading Salt on Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:05 pm

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


The wicked and righteous are immortal in eternity. The question is location; smoking or non-smoking.

Not sure what this annihilation business is all about but it is eternal torment not a final lack of existence. Doesn't that make you shiver to think of those who will be in eternal torment? :cry:

Please Yeshua, help us spread the word of salvation while there is still time! :bowing:
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Spreading Salt on Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:10 pm

Revelation 20:14 [Full Chapter]
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


What is the second death? Per scripture, it is the lake of fire. In the lake of fire, there is eternal torment.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:18 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Mr. Baldy you and I have had a few good goes over the years in the debate forum, I appreciate your tenacity, and your obvious care for God's word. But you interpret in light of a very different foundation than I do. For instance as you stated you believe in Annihilation, I do not, you have invested what appears to be years of study with a foundation that cannot accept a pre trib rapture and you interpret in light of that prediliction. When I started my study of prophecy I was actually more in line with a mid trib or pre wrath veiw. But after careful study I changed my mind, but I will admit that I too interpret in light of what I have come to believe. That is what makes for debates in the first place. I respect you for trying to convince me, and I hope you do the same, but I know I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. But by all means carry on the debate, because who knows, maybe one of us will change someone else's mind. I just wanted you to know that I think you are awesome, and I appreciate our debates, it makes me think, it drives me to the word, which is always a good thing.And I would encourage others to go to the word yourselves to see if what any of us here in the debate forum is saying lines up, study for yourselves. We are all in this together!


Hi RT,

Thank you for your aforementioned comments - the respect is certainly mutual, as I have deeply admired a lot of your posts and comments. I have so many things that I would discuss about some of the points you bring up, and the topic at hand. Unfortunately, my PC has crashed and I'm using a really bad laptop to make this reply.

If you haven't already, please read the aforementioned link that Abiding has provided, as it mentions some, but not all of the points I would like to make on annihilation. There is so much Scriptural evidence that supports annihilation and refutes the very often misinterpreted passages written in the Book of Revelation - that one would be able to learn how to not take the Book of Revelation, which is Highly Symbolic, in a "wooden literal sense".

In closing, I hope to have my PC fixed very soon, so that I can respond to your rebuttal.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:39 am

Hi RT,

I'm at work (sneaking to make this comment :mrgreen: ) but you have mentioned something that needs to be addressed while I await my desktop to be repaired.

First this:

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:And if the goats are told to depart into that fire, then they too must go into the lake of fire. Therefore the sheep and goats passage can only be referring to the end of the millennium not its beginning.


RT, please study Matthew 25:31-46 - Which explains that the Sheep & Goats Judgment is totally different than the GWTJ. The Sheep & Goats Judgment occurs AT HIS COMING - in contrast to the GWTJ occurring after the Millennial Reign of Christ. One can't have it both ways (I'll explain later) however, either it ALL ENDS at the Coming of Christ, meaning their is No Millennial Kingdom - which would appear to be describing what you are mentioning. Or there is a Millennial Kingdom where the righteous mortals repopulate the earth - and the wicked are cast into Hades to await the GWTJ 1,000 years later. After all there is a term called "2nd Death".

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The goats are commanded to depart from the presence of Christ into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Not into Hades, because that is not the place prepared for the devil and his angels. In fact we see that up until the millennium Satan is walking about freely, and even in heaven to accuse the righteous, until he is cast out of heaven and down to earth during the 70th week. At the start of the millennium he is locked in the abyss (Rev 20: 1-3 ,no mention of fire in that passage by the way). We know what the eternal fire is that is prepared for Satan and his angels, it cannot be Hades, because Hades is not eternal, it is cast into the lake of fire also, therefore it must be the lake of fire. And you will note that the punishment is eternal, it doesn't just "all end". Those cast into the lake of fire are tormented day and night forever! Seems like there would be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth if that is the case, don't you think???


Again, this has to be Hades....the key to understanding this passage is that they "go away" to AWAIT the GWTJ. Scripture has to work in harmony with other passages of Scripture. The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" occurs in Hades, not the Lake of Fire where it all ENDS. (Refer to the parable about the Rich man and Lazarus).

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:PunishING punishMENT- same thing. The important bit is that it is eternal, how do you not see that " tormented day and night for ever" as eternal punishING. And yes you're right that is a topic for a separate discussion. In any case you cannot deny that the passage concerning the goats and sheep does appear to indicate the GWTJ and does not happen at the start of the millennium.


PunishING AND PunishMENT are NOT the same thing. If one has received a punishment there is a finality to it. Punishing is a continuous action. If you were to say to your son you are punished - there is an end to it and after it has run it's course, he will have been punished. Only God is IMMORTAL - not man. To say that one will be tormented forever, and ever, and ever is to say that man is immortal - and that goes contrary to Scripture. Nevertheless, you must distinguish the difference between the Sheep & Goats Judgment and the GWTJ to properly understand what is being mentioned.

In closing - as I am running out of time.. you mention this:

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:They are souls of the dead- SOULS, not dead bodies. The "sea" is a repository for the souls of the dead, just like death and hades are. To me this is painfully obvious, John repeatedly describes the crystal sea, which stands in stark contrast to the lake of fire. Why anyone would interpret this "sea" as being a literal body of water on earth is beside me.(I could do a study on this topic alone). Anyway I would suggest that these souls are of the righteous millennial saints. I would also theorize that paradise resides within the "sea" until the millennium is finished and death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. Death and hades give up their dead, they come to life as we are told in the previous passage, and the sea also gives up its dead, which also come to life and anyone's name who was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are found in the book of life inherit eternal life. I would also point out something I just noticed: that the identification of the "first resurrection" in verse 5 above comes after the mention of the rest of the dead coming to life after the 1000 years are complete. Could that mean that those dead might be included in that first kind of resurrection? Maybe not, but it is interesting.


Now the aforementioned is an interesting theory. I would love to see additionally what you have to say about this "sea" that you have mentioned. Perhaps I can learn something, as it is indeed an interesting theory.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Spreading Salt on Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:00 pm

I just have to interject here regarding punishing vs punishment.

My son did something stupid. His punishment is that I have taken his driver's license away. He has been punished.
He is living that punishment every day. To say that punishment doesn't go on is not a true understanding of the word, IMO. :a2:

I realize this thread isn't about the subject of annihilation that Mr. Baldy brought up in early posts. I would love to start a discussion about that topic for those interested. Please see the new thread. :grin:
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:25 pm

Spreading Salt wrote:I just have to interject here regarding punishing vs punishment.My son did something stupid. His punishment is that I have taken his driver's license away. He has been punished.He is living that punishment every day. To say that punishment doesn't go on is not a true understanding of the word, IMO.


Hi Spreading Salt,

If you'll read what I wrote in my aforementioned post you will see that in comparison even your son's punishment will END. You can only keep his drivers license for a limited time. At some point it will expire, or he will obtain another drivers license on his own. Point is, even the punishment you gave him will not last forever, nor run indefinite.

The comparison I was making as it relates to punishment and punishing can be compared to the point I was making about the Lake of Fire. I will explain more in the new thread you have created.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:53 am

Looks like Spreading Salt started a thread about annihilation

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=72402

Since it is pretty clear that my conversation with Mr.Baldy is largely connected to our view regarding that topic, I am going to continue that discussion there. I hope that what I have shared here will have benefited the OP.

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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:52 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:When I started my study of prophecy I was actually more in line with a mid trib or pre wrath veiw. But after careful study I changed my mind, but I will admit that I too interpret in light of what I have come to believe.


Hey RT,

I believe we prematurely when to the Annihilation topic prior to getting a few points of view answered. I know that there are usually "spin offs" as debates continue - however, I just wanted to bring this topic up again, and a few other things that you have mentioned. (I will still comment on the Annihilation thread as well) :mrgreen:

I must say that I have come to discover that the Pre-Wrath View is the correct view as it relates to the proper interpretation of Scripture. I know that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is very wrong, as it has to many questions that conflict with Scripture. I struggled with the Post Tribulation Rapture view as well, as I could not get around Revelation 7, no matter how I tried to understand it.

I'm certainly not trying to change anyone's mind - but the Pre-Wrath view lines up so well with Scripture that I am amazed that I did not learn it sooner. I would like to know why, with all of what you have mentioned you still hold on to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view, when your very own comments refute it.


Resurrection Torchlight wrote: We are all in this together!


And this is why I wanted to mention the Resurrection topic again. I think that not only will properly understanding this issue will edify the Body of Christ - but it will also bring Glory to the Savior.
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Re: I thought only the rightous ressurrect...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:55 pm

Hey Mr. Baldy

You know, I went from a traditional pre trib to a pre wrath/ mid trib and then back to a pre trib view. I know I have posted before about what I currently believe, which is a revised pre trib view that is actually more in line in many ways with a mid trib or pre wrath view. There are many things about the traditional pre- trib view that to me are not based on scripture that have been carried over from earlier teachings that to me make no sense at all. I explain it more here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=71497

So if my comments seem to refute a traditional pre trib view, it may be that they in fact do. :mrgreen:

I think that it is sometimes hard to really grasp what others who have differing views post, because we tend to look at it all according to our own view. It is very hard to try to see things from a perspective that you have no understanding of. If you are looking at my posts in light of the traditional pre trib view, you will likely wonder what the heck I am talking about. Sometimes I don't know what the heck I am talking about either! :mrgreen: The same is true for me at times, because the foundation of our interpretation is so different it is hard for me to understand another's perspective and why they would interpret that way.

It is also very hard to look at things without any preconceived ideas creeping in. For instance I taught a study of the revelation once to a group of people largely ignorant of any particular view. They simply had not studied it at all or heard much teaching about it. I had them read the first 7 chapters and asked them to point out for me where they believed the rapture happened. They all pointed to the Multitudes arriving in heaven in Rev. 7. I then explained all the different various views to them as best as I could and went on to follow up with my own view. I was always careful to tell them to study for themselves, and that I could be wrong. I also continued to share with them opposing views. All this to say, that I know I could be wrong, I know that I make assumptions and though I try to base them on scripture, I still could be wrong. It isn't a deal breaker if we fail to agree on some of these ideas. When I said we are all in this together, I mean that we are all believers looking for answers, looking for understanding. One thing I know about myself...I have certainly not arrived.

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