Define "Apostasy"

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Define "Apostasy"

Postby christian_m0mmy on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:41 pm

I found this site that has a different definition for Apostasy, I wanted to get you guy's input.

http://erfministries.com/QnA_4.php

The first seven English Bible translations of apostasia all most appropriately rendered the noun as either the "the departure" or "the departing".

Wycliffe Bible (1384)
Tyndale Bible (1526)
Coverdale Bible (1539)
Cranmore Bible (1539)
Breeches Bible (1576)
Beza Bible (1583)
Geneva Bible (1608)

Unfortunately, as time goes by, we see our English translations progressively faltering in greater and greater ways.


There is more detail at the link.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:13 pm

"Supervening these early Bibles, The King James Bible of 1611 was the first to actually change the above correct translations from "departure" to "falling away". To this day, no good reason has ever been given."

Does a good reason need to be given when we consider that, in the margin of the Geneva Bible, it plainly says "Departure From the Faith"?
That IS how it Was Understood in ALL of the Previous versions Also, "Departure from the Faith".

If people would just check out the facts for themselves instead of simply reading what gets passed along as "Accurate" or "True" Information, it would be very wise.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby kirthril on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:27 am

I'm confused...

I've always known apostasia to mean a "falling away" or "departure" from the faith. Google Apostasia and that is the definition given. An abandoning of a previous state (usually religious).

The guy in the article has posted it to mean "departure physically" aka rapture? Am I correct? If so, won't that conflict with the rest of the verse. Concerning our gathering together to him (rapture), it wont happen happen until AC is revealed and the "departure physically" (rapture) happens first... what???? that makes no sense. Unless you take that gathering together to him to be another event separate from the rapture, there is no way that verse makes sense if in his view apostasia means rapture.

or have I misunderstood? :eek:
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:09 am

Here is Strong's definition of the Greek word "apostasia" found in verse 2 Tim 2:3

ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

I don't see the "falling away, " "the rebellion," or "departure from the truth," as specifically describing those who walk away from the truth of the Gospel (which if it is a permanent falling away would mean they had not been born again of the Spirit).

I believe 2 Tim 2:3 is referring to a general departure throughout the world from God's principles ... just like it's been happening here in the US.

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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:56 pm

Apostasia is a compound of Apo (away from) and stao, to stand. So the literal translation is "away from standing", or, departure.

In Classical Greek, this was the usage. Apostasia meant departure. This was how Aristophanes used it in his play, "The Birds", about the humans who were planning their departure to the bird city in the clouds.

By the time the Septuagint was being translated, it had begun being used for rebellion against a king, or a departure from faith, an ideological departure.

The verb form of the word is used several times in the New Testament, and includes usages which are clearly to physically depart. The noun form is used 2 times, here, and in Acts, where Paul is accused of teaching departure from Moses.

Remember, of course, that marginal notes are just that. They are commentary by the translators. We can read them, but remember they are not part of the text.

Personally, I would answer that while rebellion, or falling away from the faith, are arguably the more common translation of this word, I would not be able to rule out physical departure.

Look at the word "rapture". This word means in today's dictionary a spiritual or emotional "uplifting". But we use an old meaning of the word, to be actually lifted up and away. So there's the trick. Understanding how the writer meant it when he wrote it.

Now . . .

Consider it's usefulness as a sign.

Paul is giving two signs that must precede the day of the LORD.

(Remember, the rapture is not the Day of the LORD. These describe separate events. Whether or not they occur at the same time is a different question, but they are not the same thing)

As a sign of something, what would the falling away from the faith look like? Have there not been many fallings away in the past? What would distinguish one from another? How would you know that this one is "It"?

However, if it is "physical departure", that would be a one and only event.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:10 pm

Just correcting a typo here... It is 2Thessalonians 2:3 (not 2Tim 2:3) :grin:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless * the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction


A thing to note here which Mark had mentioned briefly but I think worthy to highlight is that this is not some general event but THE apostasia... Greek "Ho Apostasia"

It is a very specific event... THE Event that Paul had told them

Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things - verse 5


Fortunately, we don't have to guess what Event Paul told them...

We have 1Thessalonians... No where did Paul tell them about a departure of the faith in that Epistle but in every chapter of 1thessalonians there is mention of ideas of the rapture
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:24 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:It is a very specific event... THE Event that Paul had told them


But an event (falling away from the faith) that IS mentioned about 27 times in the NT depending on the translation you use. Even Jesus warned about the falling away.

Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away (G4624) and will betray one another and hate one another.
Mat 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.


Granted it's not the same word as that of "apostasia" in Thessalonians, but is comparable:

G4624
skandalizō

To “scandalize”; from G4625; to entrap, that is, trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure): - (make to) offend.

Since "falling away" is mentioned about 27 times as opposed to 1 time, I think the safer interpretation is stumbling or falling away from the faith. And stumbling block/snare is mentioned 13 times.

Here are the scriptures that refer to falling away: (I think I've copied them correctly.)

Mat_5:29; Mat_5:30; Mat_11:6; Mat_13:21; Mat_13:57; Mat_15:12; Mat_17:27; Mat_18:6; Mat_18:8; Mat_18:9; Mat_24:10; Mat_26:31; Mat_26:33; Mar_4:17; Mar_6:3; Mar_9:42; Mar_9:43; Mar_9:45; Mar_9:47; Mar_14:27; Mar_14:29; Luk_7:23; Luk_17:2; Joh_6:61; Joh_16:1; 1Co_8:13; 2Co_11:29;

40 or so similar terms describe a falling away or stumbling from the faith as opposed to 1 that is questionable.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:36 pm

Abiding, I hear you but Paul did have one church at Thessalonica that he specifically mentions about the Rapture... context is of utmost importance here i.e. what is Paul specifically thinking of when he is writing to his audience in Thessalonica...

As far as I can see from the verses you copied... thessalonians teaches nothing on the departure from the faith as I mentioned above
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:14 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:Abiding, I hear you but Paul did have one church at Thessalonica that he specifically mentions about the Rapture... context is of utmost importance here i.e. what is Paul specifically thinking of when he is writing to his audience in Thessalonica...

As far as I can see from the verses you copied... thessalonians teaches nothing on the departure from the faith as I mentioned above


KA, Paul continues with the concept of falling away; i.e. deception/snare, delusion, etc. in the same passage:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false...
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:19 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:As far as I can see from the verses you copied... thessalonians teaches nothing on the departure from the faith as I mentioned above

No mention of a falling away? How About "the Cause" of a "falling away" In Context?

as is found in the Text we are discussing.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 .......................For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:...................... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And.................. then ...............................shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And...... with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;.......................................Because.................................................................... they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And.................................... for this cause......................... God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:48 pm

IMHO, the delusion happens AFTER "THE" apostasia...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:01 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:As far as I can see from the verses you copied... thessalonians teaches nothing on the departure from the faith as I mentioned above


It seems to be that you are not applying good hermeneutics by building a theory on one word; i.e. apostasy. Nowhere does scripture describe a "catching up" to heaven other than the place you are trying to put it. On the other hand, there must be literally thousands of scripture from Genesis to Revelation (including Thessalonians) that warn of abandoning the faith, being deceived, falling away, etc. Both Jesus and Paul were firm about the danger of believers falling away from their faith by steadfastly enduring.

You are entitled to your view and many others will likely agree, but I don't think it's using good hermeneutic principles.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:11 pm

I know a thing or two about Hermeneutics...

And I have stated it quite clearly... Paul used the word "Ho" meaning "THE" in our language...

One may quote a million other examples of a general falling away from the faith... but what is "THE" apostasia that Paul is talking about to the Church of Thessalonica... that is the specific point in Hermeneutics that we have to answer... specifically what do we know he was stressing in his first Epistle to them...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:49 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:KA, Paul continues with the concept of falling away; i.e. deception/snare, delusion, etc. in the same passage:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false...



If I can jump in here . . .

I don't know that I'd really call this a falling away. This is where God messes up the minds of those who did not believe so that they will never believe. At least, believe the truth.

They did not want to believe the truth to be saved. So, no claim to faith, no profession of salvation, no falling away.

That's how I see it.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:29 am

mark s wrote:If I can jump in here . . .


Of course! Glad to have you!

I don't know that I'd really call this a falling away. This is where God messes up the minds of those who did not believe so that they will never believe. At least, believe the truth.

They did not want to believe the truth to be saved. So, no claim to faith, no profession of salvation, no falling away.


In other words, God gives them over to their deception for they choose to believe the signs and wonders of the lawless one. Paul is warning the Corinthians lest they, too, fall away by the false signs and wonders and deception of wickedness.

    G539 (deception of wickedness) 2 Th 2:10)
    apatē

    From G538; delusion: - deceit (-ful, -fulness), deceivableness (-ving).

    G538 (deception of wickedness)
    apataō

    Of uncertain derivation; to cheat, that is, delude: - deceive.

Again, noting the numerous warnings from both Jesus and Paul about deception, this one word doesn't warrant a rapture about which nary a verse can be found other than meeting the Lord (as a custom for a dignitary) in the clouds.

As I see it... erroneous to build a doctrine or belief from one or two words that are unclear at best.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby christian_m0mmy on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:40 am

I'm learning, more and more often, that there is an obvious meaning and then deeper (not opposite) meanings to Scripture.

For instance
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


One deeper meaning is "in the beginning" was the creation of time. The heavens are space and the earth is matter.

I think Apostasy is maybe one of these instances. Or maybe it has a dual meaning. Like "seasons" used in Gen 1:14. This word didn't originally mean Fall, Winter, Spring and Summer. It means Appointed Times (the 7 Jewish feasts). And not only are these feasts a remembrance of the past, but a prediction of the future. As Jesus not only fulfilled the first 4 feasts, He did them ON the specific feast it was prophesied.

So basically, everyone is correct? lol or is that too positive to think possible?
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:42 am

Jesus proved the resurrection to the Sadducees from the tense of a verb. "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob".

We know there will be an harpadzo, a catching up. You believe to meet Jesus to escort Him to earth, I believe to be removed from the earth at the end of the the gentile church dispensation, prior to the renewal of the Jewish dispensation, in the 70th week. But all of this comes from the understanding of each individual word, naturally. (Of course you know this . . .)

I'm still curious, how will we know when it's "the apostasia"? Since there have been so many "fallings away from the faith", with more to come, no doubt? How do we know it's "the one"? And if we can't what is the usefulness as a sign?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:32 pm

mark s wrote:I'm still curious, how will we know when it's "the apostasia"? Since there have been so many "fallings away from the faith", with more to come, no doubt? How do we know it's "the one"? And if we can't what is the usefulness as a sign?

By the Size of the Crowd AND "The PRICE of Admission" ........The same way we know the Super Bowl from a Regular SEASON Game.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:42 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm still curious, how will we know when it's "the apostasia"? Since there have been so many "fallings away from the faith", with more to come, no doubt? How do we know it's "the one"? And if we can't what is the usefulness as a sign?

By the Size of the Crowd AND "The PRICE of Admission" ........The same way we know the Super Bowl from a Regular SEASON Game.


Hi ST,

By this do you mean when the mark is being used?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:31 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm still curious, how will we know when it's "the apostasia"? Since there have been so many "fallings away from the faith", with more to come, no doubt? How do we know it's "the one"? And if we can't what is the usefulness as a sign?

By the Size of the Crowd AND "The PRICE of Admission" ........The same way we know the Super Bowl from a Regular SEASON Game.


Hi ST,

By this do you mean when the mark is being used?

Love in Christ,
Mark


Yes, it should be inclusive of that time.
And I tend to agree with you regarding Who Could "Fall Away".

There is a thread you've made about...."The Alter Call" Experience, so to speak.
The early church had variant opinions on Who were Of the Faith.

Let me ask you this mark, can Agape Love (Love that Operates ONLY through the Spirit of God) Operate Through an Unbeliever.
Not a Love Given or Shared BY the Spirit of God TO an unbeliever, but can That Love be Operable THROUGH an unbeliever?

In other words....God IS Love.....His Spirit IS That Agape Love.
Can That Love Abide IN an Unbeliever since an Unbeliever Does Not Have That Holy Spirit IN Them.... in Their Being?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:26 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Yes, it should be inclusive of that time.


Hi ST,

OK, thank you for clarifying for me. My thinking is that the falling away comes before the revealing of the man of sin, but the the issuing of the mark afterward, so I'm thinking these are different.

And I tend to agree with you regarding Who Could "Fall Away".


Something I've considered as the apostasia sign would be the mass defection of the false believers in the church to the beast. To the point that the churches would basically all shut down for lack of attendance. Of course, we have different concepts of where the true believers will be at that time.

There is a thread you've made about...."The Alter Call" Experience, so to speak.
The early church had variant opinions on Who were Of the Faith.


I don't recall off hand, but no matter. You are of the faith in truth if you have trusted Jesus receiving forgiveness for your sins and been born again.

Let me ask you this mark, can Agape Love (Love that Operates ONLY through the Spirit of God) Operate Through an Unbeliever.
Not a Love Given or Shared BY the Spirit of God TO an unbeliever, but can That Love be Operable THROUGH an unbeliever?

In other words....God IS Love.....His Spirit IS That Agape Love.
Can That Love Abide IN an Unbeliever since an Unbeliever Does Not Have That Holy Spirit IN Them.... in Their Being?


You are asking . . . can God abide in someone in whom God does not dwell. Can you rephrase?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:43 pm

mark s wrote:You are asking . . . can God abide in someone in whom God does not dwell. Can you rephrase?


That thread I mentioned was started by someone else...just thought that you had commented on it...like you said ...not important really.
But, I'm asking if "The Love" (Agape Love) Of the Holy Spirit That is Communicated (Key Word) Communicated Through Him Alone, can be Operable Through an Unbeliever?
That is the Question I'm asking.

I can't comment any more tonight after your response....just so you know...I'm off to work...but may answer late tonight.
Blessings as always dear brother :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:04 pm

shorttribber wrote:But, I'm asking if "The Love" (Agape Love) Of the Holy Spirit That is Communicated (Key Word) Communicated Through Him Alone, can be Operable Through an Unbeliever?
That is the Question I'm asking.


The way I understand things, God only indwells His children, and only by God indwelling us can we have His love working through us towards others.

I think John in his letters says that the proof that we are God's children is our love, therefore, that love that comes from God alone would only be in His children.

Does that make sense?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:09 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:But, I'm asking if "The Love" (Agape Love) Of the Holy Spirit That is Communicated (Key Word) Communicated Through Him Alone, can be Operable Through an Unbeliever?
That is the Question I'm asking.


The way I understand things, God only indwells His children, and only by God indwelling us can we have His love working through us towards others.

I think John in his letters says that the proof that we are God's children is our love, therefore, that love that comes from God alone would only be in His children.

Does that make sense?
mark s wrote:Love in Christ,Mark

Yes, and that is exactly what I expected you to say, and is Absolutely true.

Later, as I said, I will respond with the reason I asked you as I did.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:15 am

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:But, I'm asking if "The Love" (Agape Love) Of the Holy Spirit That is Communicated (Key Word) Communicated Through Him Alone, can be Operable Through an Unbeliever?
That is the Question I'm asking.


The way I understand things, God only indwells His children, and only by God indwelling us can we have His love working through us towards others.

I think John in his letters says that the proof that we are God's children is our love, therefore, that love that comes from God alone would only be in His children.

Does that make sense?

Love in Christ,
Mark


Ok then, Christ's own words Prove that a Believer (One who has God's Holy Spirit IN them at some point) CAN Fall Away.

Here is where he said it.....
Math 24
10 And then shall .........many........ *be offended (*Fall Away), and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love(Agape Love) of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Now mark, look at the meaning of the word "Love" as used in the verse quoted above, you will find that it is Only Used as "The Love of God" Agape.
Please compare in the Strongs between Greek #25 and #26.
Number 26 is The Love OF God, and can Only be FROM the Spirit of God DIRECTLY........This kind of "Love" is not in USE by Unbelievers, it Does Not Exist, Nor Can it Exist in Unbelievers.
This is the Kind of "Love" that Christ SAID would Wax Cold.
And Brethren would "Betray" their Fellow Brethren.

And That is "Apostasy".....Because "Faith Works by Love".....Agape Love

This is Christ Himself, describing a "Departure FROM The Faith" Wherein Agape Love is Replaced with Hate and Betrayal.

He spoke of That "Falling Away" AS A SIGN of "Those Days" that shall Precede the gathering of the Saints at His Coming.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:05 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:But, I'm asking if "The Love" (Agape Love) Of the Holy Spirit That is Communicated (Key Word) Communicated Through Him Alone, can be Operable Through an Unbeliever?
That is the Question I'm asking.


The way I understand things, God only indwells His children, and only by God indwelling us can we have His love working through us towards others.

I think John in his letters says that the proof that we are God's children is our love, therefore, that love that comes from God alone would only be in His children.

Does that make sense?

Love in Christ,
Mark


Ok then, Christ's own words Prove that a Believer (One who has God's Holy Spirit IN them at some point) CAN Fall Away.

Here is where he said it.....
Math 24
10 And then shall .........many........ *be offended (*Fall Away), and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love(Agape Love) of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Now mark, look at the meaning of the word "Love" as used in the verse quoted above, you will find that it is Only Used as "The Love of God" Agape.
Please compare in the Strongs between Greek #25 and #26.
Number 26 is The Love OF God, and can Only be FROM the Spirit of God DIRECTLY........This kind of "Love" is not in USE by Unbelievers, it Does Not Exist, Nor Can it Exist in Unbelievers.
This is the Kind of "Love" that Christ SAID would Wax Cold.
And Brethren would "Betray" their Fellow Brethren.

And That is "Apostasy".....Because "Faith Works by Love".....Agape Love

This is Christ Himself, describing a "Departure FROM The Faith" Wherein Agape Love is Replaced with Hate and Betrayal.

He spoke of That "Falling Away" AS A SIGN of "Those Days" that shall Precede the gathering of the Saints at His Coming.


Hi ST,

You are basing your argument on the proposition that "agape love" at the time Jesus spoke this prophecy was exclusive of God's love, either for us, or through us, and that is not correct.

Check it out.

That word had its own usage and meaning at that time quite apart from a born again love filled life.

The word agape was already at use in the language as a word for love. The Bible imbued it with a deeper meaning within the context of Christian living. But that does not mean that it did not have it's own use originally.

Examples of this are that the Pharisees agape'd the best seats in the synagogue. Men agape'd darkness more than light. These are examples of agape love that has nothing to do with God. You can do a word study, and find more examples of this.

At it's heart, agape refers to love that leads you to commit yourself toward the object of that love. The Pharisees were committed to getting those best seats. Other considerations aside!

But in the last days, people will become committed more and more to themselves.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:36 am

mark s wrote:You are basing your argument on the proposition that "agape love" at the time Jesus spoke this prophecy was exclusive of God's love, either for us, or through us, and that is not correct. Check it out.


And I did so check as you've asked.

In your first example below
mark s wrote:the Pharisees agape'd the best seats in the synagogue

That word was not "Agape" it is Strong's #5368 Phillao (spelling :mrgreen: )...spelling error aside...it is not Strong's #26"Agape"

in your second example below...
mark s wrote: Men agape'd darkness more than light

That word is not "Agape" either....it is Strong's #25 Agapao....it is Not "Agape"(Love that Originates From God Alone)

Do you have any other examples? I haven't found any so far....and I've taken a close look for any examples several weeks ago while commenting on another thread.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:23 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:You are basing your argument on the proposition that "agape love" at the time Jesus spoke this prophecy was exclusive of God's love, either for us, or through us, and that is not correct. Check it out.


And I did so check as you've asked.

In your first example below
mark s wrote:the Pharisees agape'd the best seats in the synagogue

That word was not "Agape" it is Strong's #5368 Phillao (spelling :mrgreen: )...spelling error aside...it is not Strong's #26"Agape"

in your second example below...
mark s wrote: Men agape'd darkness more than light

That word is not "Agape" either....it is Strong's #25 Agapao....it is Not "Agape"(Love that Originates From God Alone)

Do you have any other examples? I haven't found any so far....and I've taken a close look for any examples several weeks ago while commenting on another thread.


Hi ST,

It couldn't be "agape (G26)". That would be terrible grammar. Agape is a noun. So, the verb, Agapeo (G25).

I'll need to double check the Pharisees, however, there are others.

There remains the example of men loving darkness.

Luke 6:32 Sinners agapontas love those who love them. But while this appears in a different form, it's from the same word. And it's the verb, as the noun would be bad grammar.

Matthew 5:46, tax collectors do the same.

Don't get too hung up on the word form, the word is the same.

I love you, I have love for you, both mean the same thing, though one is a noun, and one a verb.

If you are of the opinion that the noun form is fundamentally different from the verb form, OK, not sure what to tell you.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:31 am

mark s wrote:If you are of the opinion that the noun form is fundamentally different from the verb form, OK, not sure what to tell you.


Yes, I must then be hung up on the idea of "That Love" That Is a Noun...God Is a Noun...That "Agape Love" Is a Noun.
God is, A Person (Persons) A Noun. His Communion of Himself and Our Communion With Him and Through Us, IS a Noun.
We Share a Noun, His Spirit Who Is a Noun.

So yes, I'm making a great difference between a Noun and a Verb....Good Grammar or not.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby Ready1 on Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:35 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I'm still curious, how will we know when it's "the apostasia"? Since there have been so many "fallings away from the faith", with more to come, no doubt? How do we know it's "the one"? And if we can't what is the usefulness as a sign?
By the Size of the Crowd AND "The PRICE of Admission" ........The same way we know the Super Bowl from a Regular SEASON Game.


We know the time and the date of the Super Bowl. If we were looking at the Price of Admission we can know this in advance. But the Size of the Crowd can only be known after the fact and would not be particularly useful as a sign in advance. (In all reality we really cannot tell a regular season game from the Super Bowl by the size of the crowd)

What would you say that the "Price of Admission" is in this case?

I don't think your analogy holds up.
Just observing.

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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:16 pm

mark s wrote:It couldn't be "agape (G26)". That would be terrible grammar

By the way, in what text are you saying that the word used could not be Agape? in the Math. 24 text I've mentioned?
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:19 pm

mark s wrote:There remains the example of men loving darkness.

I 've already said that in that example, the word used was Strong's #5368, and Not Agape
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:24 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:If you are of the opinion that the noun form is fundamentally different from the verb form, OK, not sure what to tell you.


Yes, I must then be hung up on the idea of "That Love" That Is a Noun...God Is a Noun...That "Agape Love" Is a Noun.
God is, A Person (Persons) A Noun. His Communion of Himself and Our Communion With Him and Through Us, IS a Noun.
We Share a Noun, His Spirit Who Is a Noun.

So yes, I'm making a great difference between a Noun and a Verb....Good Grammar or not.


Hi ST,

OK, all I can say is that I interpret the Bible using it's grammar.

Even the word "God" in the Bible, being a noun, being Deity, does not always refer to the Creator.

I would not agree that we share "a noun". God is in us. We share a Person. The God we share is described using nouns.

The love which God gives us is describes as an object using nouns, and is described in action using verbs.

Words have meanings, and if we don't stick to the meanings, what do we have?

But if you want to set the grammar aside, then we'll need to just disagree on this one.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:25 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:There remains the example of men loving darkness.

I 've already said that in that example, the word used was Strong's #5368, and Not Agape


I thought you said that about the Pharisee's loving the best seats example.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:30 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:It couldn't be "agape (G26)". That would be terrible grammar

By the way, in what text are you saying that the word used could not be Agape? in the Math. 24 text I've mentioned?


In Matt 24, the word is used as a noun, "the love of many", so the correct word would be agape, Strongs g26. In John 3, for instance, men love darkness, this is a verb, so the verb form, Strongs G25, apapao.

It's just usage, whether verb or noun. That's the difference between the two words.

In English, "love" denotes the noun and verb both, and we have many words like that. Koine Greek uses spelling to differentiate between noun and verb. In this way their language was much more expressive than ours. We are tied to word order to show the differences. They were not. Since the spelling showed the differences, they could use the word order for emphasis.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:19 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:It couldn't be "agape (G26)". That would be terrible grammar

By the way, in what text are you saying that the word used could not be Agape? in the Math. 24 text I've mentioned?


In Matt 24, the word is used as a noun, "the love of many", so the correct word would be agape, Strongs g26. In John 3, for instance, men love darkness, this is a verb, so the verb form, Strongs G25, apapao.

It's just usage, whether verb or noun. That's the difference between the two words.

In English, "love" denotes the noun and verb both, and we have many words like that. Koine Greek uses spelling to differentiate between noun and verb. In this way their language was much more expressive than ours. We are tied to word order to show the differences. They were not. Since the spelling showed the differences, they could use the word order for emphasis.

Love in Christ,
Mark


Strong's #25: agapao (pronounced ag-ap-ah'-o)
perhaps from agan (much) (or compare 5689); to love (in a social or moral sense):--(be-)love(-ed). Compare 5368.

Strong's #26: agape (pronounced ag-ah'-pay)
from 25; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast:--(feast of) charity(-ably), dear, love.

There is a difference, not only Because they may be a Noun or Verb.......They are Different by Definition also.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:22 pm

What am I missing here?

Love

. . . and . . .

to Love.

:hugs:

Strongs even notes that one is derived from the other . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:29 pm

it doesn't matter if one is born out of the other. A Cadillac and a rambler are both born out of Detroit, but One is a Much finer Vehicle
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:56 pm

A Cadillac sitting in your driveway, and a Cadillac driving down the road, are both Cadillacs.

Regardless of analogies, like I've said, it's a matter of the grammar, and that's what I go by. Since you have a different hermeneutic, I feel certain we will not reach agreement on this point.

As a proof text that born again people will stop being born again, departing from the faith, shown in the statement that the love of many will grow cold, I do not believe this is valid, or supported in the text.

I'll have to leave it at that.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:08 pm

mark s wrote:A Cadillac sitting in your driveway, and a Cadillac driving down the road, are both Cadillacs.

You've just made a comparison of two Cadillacs.
I've made the differentiation between the Quality of the Cadillac Compared to the Rambler.

One love is A Perfect Noun AND Verb (Agape)....and the Other Love is to love in a social or moral sense, ONLY....And is Not Perfect and Complete.

there is the difference, it's in the Quality and Perfection of it...Not Necessarily it's origin.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:20 pm

shorttribber wrote:
One love is A Perfect Noun AND Verb (Agape)...


Actually, it's a noun only, not a verb. The verb is . . . well, see above^
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:37 pm

mark s wrote:Actually, it's a noun only, not a verb. The verb is . . . well, see above^

Then how is the use below ,not a Verb....
Eph 5
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath....... loved(Agape)........ us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
:duel: :hugs: :duel:
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:44 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:Actually, it's a noun only, not a verb. The verb is . . . well, see above^

Then how is the use below ,not a Verb....
Eph 5
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath....... loved(Agape)........ us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.


"and walk in love (noun - G26 - agape) as Christ also hath loved (verb - G25 - agapeo) us"

Proving my point for me . . .

:oops:
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby christian_m0mmy on Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:48 pm

Please pardon the interruption, but it seems my post has been lost in the Agape. :wink:

Or does this relate to falling away vs. catching away?

christian_m0mmy wrote:I'm learning, more and more often, that there is an obvious meaning and then deeper (not opposite) meanings to Scripture.

For instance
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


One deeper meaning is "in the beginning" was the creation of time. The heavens are space and the earth is matter.

I think Apostasy is maybe one of these instances. Or maybe it has a dual meaning. Like "seasons" used in Gen 1:14. This word didn't originally mean Fall, Winter, Spring and Summer. It means Appointed Times (the 7 Jewish feasts). And not only are these feasts a remembrance of the past, but a prediction of the future. As Jesus not only fulfilled the first 4 feasts, He did them ON the specific feast it was prophesied.

So basically, everyone is correct? lol or is that too positive to think possible?
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:01 pm

christian_m0mmy wrote:Please pardon the interruption, but it seems my post has been lost in the Agape. :wink:

Or does this relate to falling away vs. catching away?

christian_m0mmy wrote:I'm learning, more and more often, that there is an obvious meaning and then deeper (not opposite) meanings to Scripture.

For instance
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


One deeper meaning is "in the beginning" was the creation of time. The heavens are space and the earth is matter.

I think Apostasy is maybe one of these instances. Or maybe it has a dual meaning. Like "seasons" used in Gen 1:14. This word didn't originally mean Fall, Winter, Spring and Summer. It means Appointed Times (the 7 Jewish feasts). And not only are these feasts a remembrance of the past, but a prediction of the future. As Jesus not only fulfilled the first 4 feasts, He did them ON the specific feast it was prophesied.

So basically, everyone is correct? lol or is that too positive to think possible?


I'm sorry, I had meant to respond to you, but it's shorttribber's fault that I didn't . .

:boink:

Personally, I think Paul meant either one thing or the other. Although my pastor is very fond of saying in these sorts of cases that both are probably true. He likes to think that everyone could be right. He's a very positive person, as it seems are you!

:grin:

Love in Christ,
Mark

PS . . . just to clarify . . . that's "agape", not "agapeo", I don't want any confusion . . .

:faint:

See what he's done to me???

:oldman:

:tease:
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby christian_m0mmy on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:11 pm

I have been accused of being a positive minded person. Even my husband said I was like Pollyanna.

I don't mean to imply that everyone is correct in their own personal interpretations, just within the limits of this discussion. I think maybe the "new" translation of falling away from the faith may be an accurate mistake as we have seen people falling away from the faith dramatically just within the last 100 years.

The Geneva translation has 2Thess 2:3 as this:

(Geneva) Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
Col 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him

Col 2:6 You have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord. Now keep on following him.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:18 pm

christian_m0mmy wrote:I have been accused of being a positive minded person. Even my husband said I was like Pollyanna.

I don't mean to imply that everyone is correct in their own personal interpretations, just within the limits of this discussion. I think maybe the "new" translation of falling away from the faith may be an accurate mistake as we have seen people falling away from the faith dramatically just within the last 100 years.

The Geneva translation has 2Thess 2:3 as this:

(Geneva) Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


That would be a literal translation, and in my view, make more sense a sign.

I agree with your thinking in the sense that the "falling away from the faith" has really gained traction as we see many appearing to do just that.

But then, there seems also to be awakenings happening also. God is always working!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:40 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:Actually, it's a noun only, not a verb. The verb is . . . well, see above^

Then how is the use below ,not a Verb....
Eph 5
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath....... loved(Agape)........ us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.


"and walk in love (noun - G26 - agape) as Christ also hath loved (verb - G25 - agapeo) us"

Proving my point for me . . .

:oops:


Loved, is listed as #26 Agape not #25 Agapao in the Strong's
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:47 pm

christian_m0mmy wrote:Please pardon the interruption, but it seems my post has been lost in the Agape. Or does this relate to falling away vs. catching away?


It definitely goes to the point of the Falling Away
I listed where Christ said it in Mathew 24....regarding a Falling away
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Define "Apostasy"

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:01 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Then how is the use below ,not a Verb....
Eph 5
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath....... loved(Agape)........ us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.


"and walk in love (noun - G26 - agape) as Christ also hath loved (verb - G25 - agapeo) us"

Proving my point for me . . .

:oops:


Loved, is listed as #26 Agape not #25 Agapao in the Strong's


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/eph5.pdf

See also Ephesians 2:4, similar construction, "His great love with which He loved us"

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/eph2.pdf

Following is copied from e-sword, KJV with Strongs:

Eph 5:2 AndG2532 walkG4043 inG1722 love,G26 asG2531 ChristG5547 alsoG2532 hath lovedG25 us,G2248 andG2532 hath givenG3860 himselfG1438 forG5228 usG2257 an offeringG4376 andG2532 a

Same thing here . . . love, as a noun, is G26, love, as a verb, is G25.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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