Jubilee timing...

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Jubilee timing...

Postby christian_m0mmy on Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:01 am

The Jubilee is the year after the seven times seven sabbatical years. Is the Jubilee the first year of the next set of seven or is there a year between where one ends and the next seven begins, but only in Jubilee years?

Did that question even make sense? lol :alrighty:
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:20 pm

The Jubilee year is the 50th year in a cycle that begins with a land sabbath year and follows the 7th land sabbath year or 49th year. Therefore there are two land Sabbaths in a row when the Jubilee comes around. The Jubilee would also be year 1 toward the next cycle. There is no biblical record of a Jubilee year ever being held according to the law.

Leviticus 25:10-13
10 ‘You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.
11 ‘You shall have the fiftieth year as a jubilee; you shall not sow, nor reap its aftergrowth, nor gather in from its untrimmed vines.
12 ‘For it is a jubilee; it shall be holy to you. You shall eat its crops out of the field.
13 ‘On this year of jubilee each of you shall return to his own property.


Not sure that Israel ever kept the Jubilee, I could be wrong, but there is no occurrence in the bible of them successfully holding one according to the law.

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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:05 pm

There does appear to be some confusion about how the year of Jubilee was timed, one must refer to the calendar God set up to understand the timing. The ancient Hebrew calendar began the year in the spring, during the month of Nisan, as God instructed. The year would begin and end in the spring, the 7th year being the Sabbath Year.

Lev 25 states that after 7 Sabbath years, 49 years, the 49th year beginning in the spring in Nisan, the 1st month, the Year of Jubilee would begin on the 10th day of the 7th month, the Day of Atonement in the month of Tishri. It would appear that the regular years and the year of Jubilee are staggered, the regular year would begin in the spring, the year of Jubilee would begin 6 months later, in the fall.

The year of Jubilee would overlap the latter half of the 49th year and the first half of the first year, ensuring that the Sabbath years would continue on through in a regular 7 year sequence. Later in Leviticus 25 the harvesting in the 9th year is discussed, which could only work out if there was planting in the 8th year, which could not occur if the 50th year began in the spring following the 49th year (they plant in the fall and winter and harvest in the spring and summer).

As the years appear to be staggered on the Hebrew calendar, the Year of Jubilee begins in the fall, on the day of Atonement, of the 49th year which begins in the spring. It can still be considered a 50th year, as in the eastern thinking a part of a year (the 49th year) can be considered a whole year.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:33 pm

The Year of Jubilee appears to have future significance as Isa 61 and 63 appear to associated the Year of Jubilee, the year of the Lord's favor, with armageddon, the day of vengenace. Rev does appear to make some association with Jesus' return at armageddon and the day of Atonement, the year of Jubilee beginning on the day of Atonement. If one knew when the Year of Jubilee began on might know the time of armageddon.

The timing of the Sabbath years and the year of Jubilee in the past have been lost to history, so one cannot calculate forward from years in the past. But Lev 25 does state that 'when you enter the land' and 'sow your fields' and 'gather your crops', the Sabbath years were to be counted. The implication may be that if Israel is not in the land and not sowing and harvesting, the Sabbath years and then the year of Jubilee do not occur. The land would not need to rest if it is not being planted and there would be no Jubilee if Israel could not return to her lands.

Israel was not in her land until 1948, and did not take the West Bank and Jerusalem until 1967, so the counting may not have occured until recently. Even after taking the West Bank it took a period of years to put up the settlements in the West Bank and begin farming. Tradition has it that after Israel entered the land under Joshua, there was a 7 year delay in the counting of the Sabbath years as it took that long to conquer and divide the land (as Caleb indicates in Joshua 14).

So the current counting of the Sabbath Years and the Year of Jubilee may not have begun until 7 years after Israel entered the land in 1967, which would begin the counting in 1973 (the year in which the Yom Kippur war took place, on the Day of Atonement). If this counting were true, 2015 would be a Sabbath year, and the spring of 2016 would bring a new 7 year period. If this counting were accurate, 49.5 years after 1973 might hold some significance.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:15 am

I have to disagree with 1whowaits scripture indicates that the start of the new year for the holy days began in the fall:

Exodus 34:22
22 “You shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.


The "turn of the year" is the end of one year and the start of a new one. In the passage the Feast of the ingathering is the feast of Tabernacles or booths. Which occurs in the month of Tishri. Leviticus tells us exactly when the Jubilee began:

Leviticus 25:1-12
1 The Lord then spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai, saying,
2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I shall give you, then the land shall have a sabbath to the Lord.
3 ‘Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its crop,
4 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard.
5 ‘Your harvest’s aftergrowth you shall not reap, and your grapes of untrimmed vines you shall not gather; the land shall have a sabbatical year.
6 ‘All of you shall have the sabbath products of the land for food; yourself, and your male and female slaves, and your hired man and your foreign resident, those who live as aliens with you.
7 ‘Even your cattle and the animals that are in your land shall have all its crops to eat.
8 ‘You are also to count off seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years.
9 ‘You shall then sound a ram’s horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land.
10 ‘You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.

11 ‘You shall have the fiftieth year as a jubilee; you shall not sow, nor reap its aftergrowth, nor gather in from its untrimmed vines.
12 ‘For it is a jubilee; it shall be holy to you. You shall eat its crops out of the field.


The Jubilee was announced on the Day of Atonement, nearing the end of the 49th year and entering into the 50th. The feast of Tabernacles always comes last in the list of feasts and since the passage in exodus says it occurs at the turn of the year, I think biblically the New year may have actually begun as the end of this feast. You have to understand that Sabbath years have to do with an agricultural cycle. The beginning of that cycle began in the month of Tishri. After the harvest was brought in (The feast of Ingathering or Tabernacles) the fields would be plowed and planted, harvest time began in the spring with the month of Nisan. Thus a sabbath year would have to coincide with the agricultural season,in order to keep the people from plowing and planting.

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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:45 am

The fact that there is without a doubt an uncertainty in knowing absolutely the feast days causes me to believe that it is intended by God to be so.
It is becoming more of a possibility to me that When the AOD occurs (the Future one) it will coincide with a Fake or Decoy 7 year Agreement (confirmation) of some kind.

If the pattern and dating of the feasts were and are as 1whowaits is saying, then that would be another example of a "Division of a Seven", and that would agree with the shorttrib idea.....and an example that speaks to Layering of Prophecy.
If the pattern of feasts were as RT is saying, then it would agree more with an entire future 7 year trib idea I think.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:11 pm

RT, actually God was pretty clear in what He wanted in regards to the Hebrew calendar- 'The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 'This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year...on the 10th day of this month each man is to take a lamb...it is the Lord's Passover.' Ex 12. 'On the 10th day of the first month the people went up from the Jordan' (Joshua 4)... 'on the evening of the fourteenth day of the month...the Israelites celebrated Passover...(Joshua 5).

The month of Passover is the month of Nisan, the first month on the calendar set up by God is the month of Nisan, not Tishri.

God set up the sequence not only to follow the agricultural cycle, but to designate specific times when His plan for Israel and humanity would be fulfilled. The Passover had to come before the day of Atonement, the Atonement (the blood of Jesus) had to be offered before the Atonement could be accepted (when Jesus returns and Israel weeps when they see the One who was pierced).

The sequence of the appointed feasts gives us insight into how God's plan will play out. Jesus' first coming fulfilling His atonement, death and resurrection at Passover, unleavened bread, and first fruits, during Nisan, the first month. The giving of the Holy Spirit and the empowerment of the church at Pentecost, at Sivan, the 3rd month.

And the months that follow are noted as a time of destruction and mourning for past sins, the months of Tammuz and AV. But the months of mourning and destruction are followed by the month of calling to repentance, the month of turning or returning to the Lord, the month of Elul. The time of calling for return is followed by the greatest of days, the days of Awe, during the 7th month, the month of Tishri.

The Days of Awe when paired with statements in scripture, paint a picture of how Jesus will fulfill them. Jesus will return in the air at the last trumpet, on the day that no one knows, when Israel will look upon the One who was pierced, which would appear to be consistent with the feast of Trumpets. Jesus' return and setting foot on the earth at armageddon, which the 7th seal and trumpet in Rev appear to associate with the Day of Atonement, the Day of Atonement aka the day of judgement, and apparently the day Israel is rescued and freed from sin and her enemies, the ultimate Year of Jubilee. And at last the final ingathering of the harvest, when the palm branches are waved, when the temporary booths are replaced by eternal dwellings, when the return of the King is celebrated, at the feast of Tabernacles.

There is a purpose to this calendar, and i believe the countdown to its final fulfillment will soon reach its end.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:26 pm

ST, i would disagree, the calendar does not demonstrate a division of a seven, the calendar does not stop, Gods' plan does not stop, it is ongoing. Even during the months between the first and second comings God continues to deal with Israel, with punishment and destruction but also mourning for past sins and a call to repentance and return. The calendar did not stop at Pentecost, it continues on, it is a unified whole. (as will be the 70th week, which would be the most straightforward, and consistent with other scripture, interpretation of Dan 9).
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:21 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, i would disagree, the calendar does not demonstrate a division of a seven, the calendar does not stop, Gods' plan does not stop, it is ongoing.


I agree, just in that God's plan does not stop. The division is "Shadowed", IMO, in the example that you gave earlier .....below

1whowaits wrote:The year of Jubilee would overlap the latter half of the 49th year and the first half of the first year


That's what I refer to only. God's "plan" did not stop "For Israel" to Allow a "Grafting In" of The Gentiles.....That, "Grafting IN" was Part of God's Promise and Plan to Abraham and His Seed After him from the Beginning.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:28 pm

ST, ok, i see what you are saying. My thought would be that the shift that occurs from the years usually starting on Nisan 1 to the year of jubilee starting on the day of Atonement, is to put special emphasis on the day of Atonement. The day of Atonement is different from all the other days for it is the day when Israel obtains freedom, the day of her redemption, it is a unique day for all mankind, a day that begins the ultimate Jubilee.

One other thought on the year of Jubilee. There is a pattern in scripture, of smaller events foreshadowing bigger events. In the OT when God dealt with a nation it could be termed a day of the Lord, an apparent foreshadowing of the great and terrible DOTL when Jesus returns at armageddon.

Pentecost or the feast of weeks is a countdown of sorts, after the feast of Firstfruits when the sheaf of grain is waved before the Lord, 7 weeks plus 1 day, or seven Sabbath days plus one day (50 days), are counted down until the feast of Weeks, or Pentecost- pente referring to 50 days.

Pentecost would appear to be a foreshadowing of the year of Jubilee, instead of 7 weeks of days, 7 Sabbath days and then the 50th day at Pentecost, it is 7 Sabbath years or 7 weeks of years, followed by the 50th year for the year of Jubilee.

At Pentecost, after the countdown of 50 days, the Holy Spirit was given as a down payment. At the year of Jubilee, after a countdown of 50 years, the full payment will be made in the person of Jesus, when we are joined with Him. Pentecost could well be a foreshadowing of the year of Jubilee to come, sometime in the future.

Also at the feast of Firstfruits a sheaf of grain is waved before the Lord, after the countdown of 50 days 2 loaves of bread are brought before the Lord as a wave offering of first fruits. For the grain to become bread it must go through a process, it is threshed before it is turned into flour and made into bread.

Which brings to mind Isa 28, which prior to describing armageddon in Isa 29, discusses the planting and harvesting of grains- 'When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually...when he has leveled the surface..does he not plant wheat in its place...grain must be ground to make bread, so one does not go on threshing it forever. All this also comes from the Lord Almighty, wonderful in counsel and magnificent in wisdom'.

Isa 28 appears to be using the farmers process for planting the grain and arriving at the final product, the bread as an illustration of something else, perhaps something that occurs prior to armageddon. The grain is threshed by a sledge called the Tribulinum, from which the word 'Tribulation' is derived. For the grain to arrive at the finished product, the bread, it must face the tribulinum (tribulation). But as Isa 28 states the threshing will not go on forever, it will come to an end.

So who is the grain? Why 2 loaves of bread? (Rev 7?) we may already be in the countdown.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:59 pm

really good post....lots of stuff there, I gotta study some of that more...I feel like I've been "Loaf'n" around too much lately.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:11 pm

This is a good old post by Watching regarding the "Two Loaves" of "One Lump".
..................................................................................................................................................


Leviticus 23:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.


This was fulfilled by Christ on first fruits, which was the morrow after the sabbath, or Sunday morning, the day of the Lord's resurrection.

Then, according to Leviticus, on Shavuot, there is to be a wave offering of two loaves of bread baked with leaven.
They are the firstfruits unto the Lord.


Leviticus 23:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.


This may or may not have been completely fulfilled. But we do know that Shavuot was fulfilled at least in part, if not completely, on Pentecost.
As a side note, I do not believe the leaven in this instance represents sin.
I believe the leaven represents the fullness of the kingdom of God.


Luke 13:20-21
King James Version (KJV)
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

..........................................
But, why are there two loaves?
.........................................
I'm not sure, but I believe that it may be because there are two fullnesses that need to take place.


Romans 11:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


Romans 11:25
King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


So, the fullness, or the receiving of the Jews, is what leads to life from death. (The resurrection?)
However, Israel is blinded, in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
So, it sounds to me like the fullnes of both will occur at the same time. Because it is the fullness of the Jews that brings about the resurrection (or our redemption). However, Israel, will remain blinded, in part, until the fullnes of the Gentiles be come in. So, it is not until the fullness of the gentiles, that the blinders will be removed from Israel.

So, in both cases, the one depends on the other. So, they both depend on eachother.

We are also told in Romans 11:16, that if the first fruit is Holy, then the lump is Holy. (Or loaves baked from the lump are Holy.)


Romans 11:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.


Well, Jesus was the first fruit, therefore we (the lump or the fullness of the kingdom of God) will also be Holy.
However, on Shavuot, the lump is to be baked into two loaves. I believe that's because the lump is made up of Jews and Gentiles.

But, notice, however, that the two wave loaves are to be the first fruits unto the Lord.

Jesus was the first fruit of the grain harvest.

The first of the grains to mature is the barley.

However, it is around the time of Pentecost that the wheat begins to mature.

So, the two loaves must apparently be made from the firstfruits of the wheat harvest.

If the two wave loaves are the first fruit of the wheat harvest, then the main harvest of the wheat must be yet to be harvested.
Not, only that, but the corners of the field, are not to be harvested at all, but are to be left for the poor.



Leviticus 23:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.

Jesus said the field is the world.


Matthew 13:38
King James Version (KJV)
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


That is why the world has four corners, even though the world is round. It's not because God doesn't know that the world is round.

Isaiah 40:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


So when you see four corners, or four quarters, or four winds, etc., mentioned in scripture, aside from the fact that there are four directions representing the entire earth (north, south, east, west), it is also because Jesus said that the world is represented by the field. And a field has four corners.
Anyway, getting back to Shavuot, the following is also to be offered:


Leviticus 23:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the Lord, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the Lord.


I'm not sure what all of the above represents, but I believe it is most probably yet to be fulfilled.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:24 am

1whowaits wrote:At Pentecost, after the countdown of 50 days, the Holy Spirit was given as a down payment. At the year of Jubilee, after a countdown of 50 years, the full payment will be made in the person of Jesus, when we are joined with Him. Pentecost could well be a foreshadowing of the year of Jubilee to come, sometime in the future.


So 2Thes 2:7 (He who now restrains) would point to a pre tribulation rapture?
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:12 am

RT, actually God was pretty clear in what He wanted in regards to the Hebrew calendar- 'The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 'This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year...on the 10th day of this month each man is to take a lamb...it is the Lord's Passover.' Ex 12. 'On the 10th day of the first month the people went up from the Jordan' (Joshua 4)... 'on the evening of the fourteenth day of the month...the Israelites celebrated Passover...(Joshua 5).


I am sorry, I misspoke, the calendar for counting the feasts did begin in Nisan, but the agricultural calendar begins in the fall (there are traditionally four "new years" in the Jewish calendar). Nisan was also the start of the year for counting the years of a King's reign.

The Sabbath year and the Jubilee year however follow the agricultural calendar.


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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:38 am

So, the fullness, or the receiving of the Jews, is what leads to life from death. (The resurrection?)
However, Israel is blinded, in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
So, it sounds to me like the fullnes of both will occur at the same time. Because it is the fullness of the Jews that brings about the resurrection (or our redemption). However, Israel, will remain blinded, in part, until the fullnes of the Gentiles be come in. So, it is not until the fullness of the gentiles, that the blinders will be removed from Israel.

So, in both cases, the one depends on the other. So, they both depend on eachother.


I agree with this line of reasoning and would add a sort of hypothesis, the barley wave offering, which is when Christ was resurrected, who is the head of the church, is unleavened (see 1 Corinthians 5:6-8). Leaven being compared to sin. Since we the church are the body of Christ, we too are like the barley wave offering. However the two loaves offered at Pentecost are baked with leaven of the first fruits of the wheat harvest.

I agree that the wheat harvest in my opinion coincides with the fullness of the gentiles and the fullness of Israel as stated in the post I quoted from, which will occur during the time of great tribulation. Both gentiles and Jews will come to know Christ as savior during that time. The "leaven" of the two loaves offered at pentecost is essentially halted by the heat of the oven, the fires of refinement so to speak.

It is interesting that The church at Laodicea is told the following:
Revelation 3:17-19
17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.


And then later we see the tribulation saints at their resurrection depicted as standing on the sea of glass mixed with "fire".
Revelation 15:2
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.


The sea mentioned earlier in Revelation 4 and Revelation 7 has no mention of being mixed with fire until this passage. The tribulation will serve as chastisement and discipline to those who will be saved during that time, I believe both Jews and gentiles. The Holy Spirit sent forth at Pentecost millennia ago began the process, the tribulation will be the vehicle that God uses to finish it.

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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:50 pm

ST, RT, interesting thoughts. At the feast of firstfruits the grain, barley, is offered to the Lord unchanged, it is presented as a sheaf of grain. The firstfruit is a representation of Jesus and He is perfect in the form He is offered so not further processing is needed.

At Pentecost, celebrating the wheat harvest, the wheat is not presented unaltered as a sheaf but in a refined form, as a loaf of bread. Scripture repeatedly associates wheat and the harvest of wheat with those who believe, both Jew and Gentile. The presentation of 2 loaves of bread could suggest that the wheat goes through some sort of process to arrive at the final form desired by the harvester/maker. By what process does wheat become bread?

After harvesting the wheat is 'threshed' by a sledge, it is crushed so that the chaff, the 'impurities', are removed. The wheat is then ground into flour and then baked in the fire to produce bread. And at some point leaven is added to the bread.

So if the presentation of the wheat at Pentecost is as bread, what is the message being conveyed? Is it that leaven has been added, or is it that for the wheat to take the form the maker desires, it must go through the tribulium and the fire? The wheat is still the wheat, those who believe are still saved, but does God have a greater purpose or mission for the wheat?

What happened with the apostles and the early church? If Pentecost is possibly a foreshadowing of the year of Jubilee, does the threshing of the wheat apply to those present during the countdown up until the return?
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:44 pm

Just to answer my own question, does God associate tribulation and trial with the process of turning wheat into bread, i believe He does in Isa 28.

Isa 28 discusses events in Israel an mentions the 'covenant with death', which is believed to be the covenant with the AC. Isa 29 describes Jerusalem being surrounded by enemies, the Lord Almighty coming with thunder, earthquake,windstorm and tempest, Israel's enemies- the hordes of the nations, are turned to dust, consistent with the depiction of armageddon in Rev and Zech 14.

In the middle of the depiction of armageddon and the covenant with death, is a dicussion of the grain cycle and making of bread. Why discuss the agricultural process of grain in the midst of a depiction of the time of the great tribulation and armageddon?

It is interesting that God does not state exactly what He is getting at, He asks questions that the reader is supposed to think about- 'When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually? Does he keep breaking up and harrowing the soil?' The obvious answer being, no, the farmer does not plow continually, plowing is limited depending on the size of the field being plowed, the plowing does end.

'When he has leveled the surface, does he not sow caraway and scatter cummin? Does he not plant wheat in its place, barley in its plot, and spelt in its field?'...Well yes, after plowing the farmer does plant the appropriate grain in the appropriate way.

'His God instructs him and teaches him the right way'...God knows the rules for planting grain, He is the instructor for it, who knows how this works better than Him?

'Caraway is not threshed with a sledge, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cummin; caraway is beaten with a rod and cummin with a stick'...caraway and cummin are different grains from wheat, they are beaten with a rod and a stick, the beating with a rod in scripture usually being a reference to punishment. Caraway is not threshed with a sledge, but wheat is, wheat is threshed with the tribulium, which aides in removal of the chaff. Interesting that apparently we are supposed to make that connection, as He does not directly state what is done to wheat.

'Grain must be ground to make bread; so one does not go on threshing it forever'...this does appear to a reference to wheat and the process it goes through to make bread. Wheat is crushed by the sledge and winnowed and the chaff (impurities) removed, and then is is ground into flour and baked in a oven to produce bread.

The statement that the threshing does not go on forever is a main point in the discussion i believe. Who would ask if the threshing by the sledge, the tribulinum (tribulation) would go on forever? The wheat would, and it appears that God is telling the wheat that the threshing (tribulation) will not go on forever, it will come to an end.

So it does appear that several points are made in this discussion of grain processing....there is a plan to the process and God knows exactly what He is doing....the process requires some difficulty (sledgeing)....the process will not go on forever, it will come to an end...the end result, the bread, is exactly what God planned for and brought to fruition, God is in control of the entire process.

And it would appear that the process of turning wheat into bread is associated with difficulty or tribulation (tribulium), which may be what the loaves produced at Pentecost are pointing to. And if Pentecost is a foreshadowing of the year of Jubilee, more processing of the wheat will be accomplished, like that of a great multitude that no one could count.

And this would appear to be consistent with what is depicted in Rev 7, the great multitude that comes out of the great tribulation- 'they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tent over them...for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; He will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'

The great multitude appears to receive special rewards, special attention from God, after going through all or part of the GT. They may be the wheat that is alluded to in Isa 28, the wheat that will go through the tribulinum.
Last edited by 1whowaits on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:52 pm

sure is an interesting post 1ww.
Mind Boggling, the details contained in God's Word....really is sooooo incomprehensible....what a Mighty God we serve!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:10 pm

ST, yes God is amazing, and i find it fascinating that He wishes to engage us and ask questions that He wants us to think about and arrive at an answer.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:12 pm

it was implied, but I will mention it anyway, in Jesus' day wheat was threshed with the farm implement called a "tribulum". While Barley was much easier separated from the chaff, by beating or flailing it against the grain floor.

Barley was an easier crop to grow and was hardier and more abundant than the wheat of that day, which was more prone to crop failure.

Those churches written to in the Revelation would have understood these ideas.

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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:28 pm

RT, yes, it is interesting that from the beginning of the feasts in Lev 23, the feast of firstfruits offered the unaltered barley sheafs before the Lord, while at Pentecost instead of unaltered wheat sheafs being offered, wheat in the form of bread was offered. Firstfruits would appear to represent Christ, while the wheat at Pentecost would appear to represent believers. My discussion has been about the possible reason behind the different forms of the offerings.

BTM, to your question, there appears to be a countdown of 49 +1 at Pentecost and the year of Jubilee. There also appears to be some association with a process wheat goes through to become bread at the end of the countdown, a process of trial.

The message could be that, if you find yourself in the time of the countdown, especially toward the end, most likely you will be going through the process...simply stated, the only way out is through.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:21 pm

1whowaits wrote:There also appears to be some association with a process wheat goes through to become bread at the end of the countdown, a process of trial.
The message could be that, if you find yourself in the time of the countdown, especially toward the end, most likely you will be going through the process...simply stated, the only way out is through.


Through the Trib? That's what it seems you're saying, am I right about your meaning?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Jubilee timing...

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:44 pm

ST, i am stating that, although we don't know for sure where are in the countdown until Christ's return, at the time when we do see a man setting himself up as god in a rebuilt temple, it is a pretty good bet that we will be going through the great tribulation. There is a countdown, at some point we will understand exactly where we are in that countdown, and that time of realization may not be far from the time of the GT itself.

Many appear to think that a believer going through the GT would be a punishment, that they didn't have enough faith, that they missed the gathering. But God does not appear to consider going through the GT a punishment but rather an opportunity. The great multitude are given special consideration and apparently special reward, they will be with God in His temple and God Himself will wipe away their tears. And in Rev 14 a voice from heaven (God's voice?) says of those going through the GT- 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on....they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.'

I believe Isa 28 is really meant as an encouragement to those who go through the GT, God knows what He is doing, the tribulation(threshing) will not go on forever, there will be an end, and at the end you will be in the form He desires. And in Isa 28 going through the GT appears to be associated with a process, as the example of wheat being turned into bread is alluded to, the threshing is not a punishment, it has an important purpose.

Going through the GT is not a result of failure, nor is it required for salvation or sanctification, nor does God turn us away from it, it appears to be part of His plan. And as it is part of His plan, and as He is in control, it is likely that those who go through that time have been chosen.

And for those whom God chooses for any part of His plan, who remain faithful to Jesus, the only way out...is through- 'This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus'.

A subject difficult to contemplate, but considering the road the world appears to be going down, we may soon understand where we are in the countdown.
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