Why the Euphrates?

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Why the Euphrates?

Postby kirthril on Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:41 pm

Simple question. Why does God dry up only the Euphrates river to make way for kings of the east and not the Tigris as well? Both need to be crossed and im sure both already have many bridges crossing them(looking at map).
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:01 pm

K, yes, if the Euphrates were to be dried up for human armies to pass, the Tigris also would have to be dried up. With current bridging technology drying up a river is not necessary for the movement of troops, and there are already bridges in place. Perhaps the Euphrates is dried up not for passage over it but to reveal what is hidden beneath it.

The seals, trumpets and bowls appear to parallel each other and both the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl refer to the river Euphrates. At the 6th trumpet 4 angels are released who are bound or imprisoned at the Euphrates. These angels that are bound appear to be fallen angels, and fallen angels are referred to as being bound in chains in Jude, and the place they are bound would appear to be the Abyss.

The 5th trumpet describes a fallen angle opening the Abyss and releasing non human forces and the rise of the (fallen) angel of the Abyss, Apollyon. The 4 angels released at the Euphrates are also associated with non human forces in the number of 200 million, which may be a reference to all the forces released from the Abyss, including those released in the 5th and 6th trumpets.

The 6th bowl describes the Euphrates being dried up to prepare the way for the king or kings 'arising'. The term for arising can by implication refer to the east, or refer to the rising sun and the 'dawn', or just simply 'arising'. In Isa 14 Satan is referred to as the son of the dawn, and Apollyon is the king who arises from the Abyss, the king who arises would appear to be a fallen angel, who comes with non human forces, perhaps the 'god of forces' of Daniel 11.

Could it be that the opening to the Abyss is in an area covered by the water of the Euphrates, undiscovered by men until the time Satan's forces are unleashed?
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:50 pm

Perhaps, the Euphrates River is symbolic of the Baal religion which was prevalent around the Euphrates and further afield including Israel up to and around 600 AD.

If the Euphrates River, i.e. the Baal religious practices dries up, then a new religion can manifest itself in its place which is more against the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob than the Baal Religion. The fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 certainly has instigated the rise of a great religious movement which declares that their is only one god and that this is the "greatest god" and that this god has no son. However, this religion recognises that Jesus was a great prophet but that he is not God's Son.

The kings on the east of the river are listed in Revelation 16:13. They are, the Dragon, the beast and the false prophet.

In 2001 we saw the three demonic foul frogs go abroad to the kings of the whole world to begin the process of drawing them to assemble for battle at Armageddon on the Great Day of God the Almighty.

Isaiah 24:21-22 speaks of this day and the judgement that is given on that day.

Shalom

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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:39 am

Wasn't the Euphrates the eastern boundary of the land that God promised to the children of Israel.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Straightshot on Mon May 04, 2015 5:51 am

kirthril

Here is why

The kings of the east and their armies will come from the extents of the Middle East proper to fight the Lord at Armageddon [Principally Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan]

The Euphrates is at the entrance of the Persian Gulf an it is this dry river bed that will provide the way for reaching the battle front on the ground .... all the way up to north western Mesopotamia along a line into the Syrian/Iraq theater

All of the eastern components of the little horn's Islamic confederation will come to support his Caliphate

So this factor of the Lord's drawing will make way to transverse the dry Euphrates River bed
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Douggg on Sat May 09, 2015 2:37 pm

Straightshot wrote:kirthril

Here is why

The kings of the east and their armies will come from the extents of the Middle East proper to fight the Lord at Armageddon [Principally Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan]

The Euphrates is at the entrance of the Persian Gulf an it is this dry river bed that will provide the way for reaching the battle front on the ground .... all the way up to north western Mesopotamia along a line into the Syrian/Iraq theater

All of the eastern components of the little horn's Islamic confederation will come to support his Caliphate

So this factor of the Lord's drawing will make way to transverse the dry Euphrates River bed

East yes, but you have not gone far enough east. The 200,000,000 strong army is China and the Asia countries. They will kill 1/3 of mankind, which to achive that means that Pakistan and India will be aligned with the beast. Which the Chinese armies will do a bloodbath (news from the east that troubles the beast) on their way to fight the beast's western nations armies in middle east.

There may be brides spanning the Eurphrates currently, but those will be taken out early as soon as the battles begin. So to go across the river, because of the size of the armies of Chinese and Asia countries, it has to dry up
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat May 09, 2015 10:47 pm

Hello,

There are two different events described in the Book of Revelation, where the initial OP question was focused on Rev 16:12-16, a near future event with the initial signs already in view in preparation for the judgement of the fallen heavenly hosts/beasts and the rebellion of the kings of the earth and their army and the second event, which has been referred to in later posts, and is a distant future event found in Revelation 9:13-19 waiting for the release of the four bound heavenly angels, {the four beasts of Isaiah 24:21-23 and Daniel 7:1-12} imprisoned in the Abyss which is also described in Revelation 13, 19:11-21.

We must be careful that we get the mountain peaks into their right relative relationship with each other according to what is written in scripture. Oh, and there are no layers found that can be construed in this particular example.

As for the twice times ten thousand time ten thousand being from China, is indeed a fallacy contrived in order to justify that the proposition of a "beast" in the Book of Revelation can only be a "human" powered empire from that region rather than the fallen heavenly angel is released from the abyss which is situated, as suggested in the Book of Revelation, on the eastern side of the Euphrates River. People cannot comprehend that this army is actually drawn from the four corners of the earth under the influence of this four facetted beast/heavenly fallen angel after the establishment of a solemn covenant between Satan and the fallen peoples of the earth.

Oh, I hope that this will go down well.

Shalom

PS: - Doesn't 1,000 years separate the first and second event above?
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Douggg on Sun May 10, 2015 5:42 am

Jay Ross wrote: People cannot comprehend that this army is actually drawn from the four corners of the earth under the influence of this four facetted beast/heavenly fallen angel after the establishment of a solemn covenant between Satan and the fallen peoples of the earth.


If any of that were correct, then why does the news out of the east (and north) trouble the beast?

Daniel 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Jay Ross on Sun May 10, 2015 2:33 pm

Douggg wrote:
Jay Ross wrote: People cannot comprehend that this army is actually drawn from the four corners of the earth under the influence of this four facetted beast/heavenly fallen angel after the establishment of a solemn covenant between Satan and the fallen peoples of the earth.


If any of that were correct, then why does the news out of the east (and north) trouble the beast?

Daniel 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.


Douggg, it is right to question a post, but a scripture without the context and the relevant timeframe for the scripture stated by the author of the post, does not make a valid argument against the post that is being responded too.

If we consider Revelation 9 does this describe the "king" that you are referencing in Daniel 11:44?

Revelation 9:1-6, 10-12: - Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. . . . . .

. . . . They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.
NKJV


Who is the king of Revelation 9:11 and is he the same king as found in Daniel 11:44?
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Douggg on Sun May 10, 2015 5:39 pm

Jay Ross wrote:
Douggg wrote:
Jay Ross wrote: People cannot comprehend that this army is actually drawn from the four corners of the earth under the influence of this four facetted beast/heavenly fallen angel after the establishment of a solemn covenant between Satan and the fallen peoples of the earth.


If any of that were correct, then why does the news out of the east (and north) trouble the beast?

Daniel 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.


Douggg, it is right to question a post, but a scripture without the context and the relevant timeframe for the scripture stated by the author of the post, does not make a valid argument against the post that is being responded too.


I gave the scripture. If the person is some fallen angel, Abaddon or whoever, and has a 200,000,000 strong army, what does he care about news out of the east (and north)?

I am saying that the person is not an angel, but a man who thinks he has achieved God-hood, and relies on help from a god called the fortress god, which probably is a fallen angel. When the Chinese and asian armies head west to fight him, he has plenty cause to be troubled over that news.


Revelation 9:1-6, 10-12: - Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. . . . . .

. . . . They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

One woe is past. Behold, still two more woes are coming after these things.
NKJV


Who is the king of Revelation 9:11 and is he the same king as found in Daniel 11:44?


Abaddon is in the fifth trumpet. The 200,000,000 strong army is in the sixth trumpet

If Abaddon, some powerful fallen angel from the bottomless pit is the king in Daniel 11:44, with a 200,000,000 strong army then why is he troubled by news coming out of the east and north ?
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Jay Ross on Sun May 10, 2015 10:45 pm

Doug,

First off, please explain how you can possibly interpret that the army of 200,000,000 horsemen will come from China in the portion of scripture quoted below.

Revelation 9:13-19: - Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels{/beasts} who are bound at the great river Euphrates." So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulphur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed — by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
NKJV


And secondly, please explain how the "king" is a "man" if he is still in the abyss as per Revelation 9 and Revelation 9 and Daniel 11:36-45 are speaking of the same event?
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Douggg on Mon May 11, 2015 6:57 am

Jay Ross wrote:Doug,

First off, please explain how you can possibly interpret that the army of 200,000,000 horsemen will come from China in the portion of scripture quoted below.

Revelation 9:13-19: - Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels{/beasts} who are bound at the great river Euphrates." So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulphur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed — by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
NKJV


The four angels -messengers of destruction - is just talking about the leaders of the Eastern countries being predestined to attack the beast, which will take place at a certain time in history, as they partake in the battles against the beast in Daniel 11. The Asian nations have the population to launch a 200,000,000 strong army. The horses are not literal horses because their heads were like heads of lions. The horses just represent mechanized military equipment.

And secondly, please explain how the "king" is a "man" if he is still in the abyss as per Revelation 9 and Revelation 9 and Daniel 11:36-45 are speaking of the same event?

You are making a bad assumption. There is nothing in Revelation 9 that the beast is in the abyss at that point.

Revelation 9 begins as Satan is cast down in Revelation 12. Satan is cast down after the two witnesses are killed (the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3, 12:6) and come back to life. Which because the two witnesses are killed by the beast, means the person has become the beast before hand. Which the unclean spirit of the beast will have come out of the bottomless pit to possess the person before the two witnesses are killed.

So Revelation 9 is after the person has become the beast > after the two witnesses are killed and come back to life > and after Satan is cast down. The key is the placement of the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 is before Satan is cast down in Revelation 12:14.

Thus the question becomes when do the events of flesh eating locust (and their leader Abaddon) take place. It appears that it will be in the early stages of the great tribulation, because of (coinciding with his falling to earth) Satan's being allowed to open the pit. The bible doesn't say what ends the locust and Abaddon, except they have a 5 month run.

The sixth seal would be near the end of the great tribulation because the battles in Daniel 11 are near the end as disillusionment of the beast's claim of being God registers with the other three sectors of the world, as God's judgment have exacted a hard toll on the nations and essentials to life become scarce. In the 6th vial in Revelation 16, the Euphrates dries up making way for the kings of the east and their 200,000,000 huge army to march west.
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon May 11, 2015 3:36 pm

Douggg

No matter what biblical passages I post to support my expressed views, you will always find a different point of view to put down anything that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures.

You are claiming in your post ^^^ above that the Book of Revelation is linear in its presentation where as I understand that the Book of Revelation is not linear in its account but jumps about with respect to time from one "mountain peak in time" to "another mountain peak in time" and does not necessarily establish whether or not these time jumps are backwards or forwards in the telling of the visions.

As far as I am aware, there is only one scriptural passage that talks about the judgement of rebellious man where those judged are put into an abyss to await their time of final judgement along with the fallen heavenly angels who are judged at the same time.

In Daniel 11, the account spans a period in excess of 3,500 years and there is a time gap in the chapter of 1,000 years between verse 35 and verse 36.

As for your statement that an angel can also be called a man and that the beasts can be locked into discrete periods of historical time except for the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 is also, IMHO, questionable.

But be my guest, keep posting your theory as further debate between us is futile. The passing of time will reveal, who has the better understanding. I for one would be really happy for others to provide apologetic arguments which actually invalidates what I have come to understand after having previous flawed views which embraced what you still hold onto.

Shalom

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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Douggg on Mon May 11, 2015 5:23 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Douggg

No matter what biblical passages I post to support my expressed views, you will always find a different point of view to put down anything that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures.

You are claiming in your post ^^^ above that the Book of Revelation is linear


Give me my exact words that the Book of Revelation is linear.

The contents of my post are that it is not linear.
in its presentation where as I understand that the Book of Revelation is not linear in its account but jumps about with respect to time from one "mountain peak in time" to "another mountain peak in time" and does not necessarily establish whether or not these time jumps are backwards or forwards in the telling of the visions.


Not being linear is not the issue. Being able to sort out the events into a linear sequence is the issue.

As for your statement that an angel can also be called a man and that the beasts can be locked into discrete periods of historical time except for the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 is also, IMHO, questionable.


Are you talking about the 4 angels bound by the river Euphrates? To the churches, Jesus said take this message to mine angel of the church of _____...... Then each church is addressed. The angel of each church is who? The angel is people of that church who are the "messenger" of the gospel. It is not talking about a single created heavenly being like Gabriel. Likewise, the 4 angels bound by the river Euphrates imo is just talking about the kings of the major Asian armies.

The other point you are questioning - the beasts in Daniel 7 represent kingdoms, empires, that are widely known in history, and are connected to Israel from the time of the Babylonian captivity till Jesus's return, coinciding with the 70 weeks timeframe of Daniel 9.

But be my guest, keep posting your theory as further debate between us is futile. The passing of time will reveal, who has the better understanding. I for one would be really happy for others to provide apologetic arguments which actually invalidates what I have come to understand after having previous flawed views which embraced what you still hold onto.

Jay, your four faceted beast view is so far out there, that no-one comprehends it - to want to invalidate it. It holds no interest to others, to want to try and convince you otherwise.

Regarding my own view, I have not seen any evidence from your posts that you really comprehend it, and I am quiet sure that you never understood passages like Daniel 12 in the following manner... day 1 is the first day of the 7 years, day 2520 the day Jesus returns to earth.

day1...............day 1185 (AOD setup).................day 2475 (1290 days)..............day 2520 (1335th day)
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon May 11, 2015 6:05 pm

Douggg

Your post ^^^ only confirms what I wrote. I can be patient and am willing to wait for the required time to unfold to either prove or disprove the truth of the matter.

Shalom

PS: - Does it really matter if people do not get what I write, if what I write is outside of their ability to comprehend. That in a nut shell is God's problem as well. There are many people who study his prophetic scriptures who cannot move outside of their abilities to comprehend.
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Re: Why the Euphrates?

Postby Straightshot on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:13 pm

The Euphrates is the ancient river along which Middle Eastern civilization began after the flood of Noah's day

Bible prophecy is a specific focus upon the Middle East and the populations that exist there, both in ancient times and today

This river has three significant aspects with regard to the events of the end time setting

The drying of the Euphrates will provide for the way of the armies of the little horn of Daniel's visions [same as the first beast of Revelation] to get to the region of the river's course where the Battle of Armageddon will be fought .... entering at the entrance of the Persian gulf and reaching the Syria/Iraq enclaves

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Israe ... 2013352cba

The countries that will use this course are Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan

This little horn of Islam will call for these eastern constituents of His Middle Eastern confederation to join him in battle against Israel with the Lord at the vanguard of Israel's conquest [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39; Micah 5; Revelation 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

The Euphrates is also the location of bound demonic fallen angels to be released upon the earth during the coming tribulation period [Revelation 9:14-21]

And Israel's territory will be greatly expanded from the tiny nation's current possession to the Euphrates during the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Genesis 15:18; Acts 1:6]
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