Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

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Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:50 pm

I was doing a comparative study between the 3 parallel passages when I realized that Mark and Luke did not include the parts about "as in the days of Noah" and "Likewise, also as it was in the days of Lot"...

Matthew has it altogether but Luke, credited by most commentators to be an astute historian, puts those portion of scriptures separate in Luke 17, which is clearly a different setting than Luke 21...

I am just wondering how we should read these passages... Did Mark and Luke miss out the portions in Mark 13 and Luke 21? Or did Matthew make a mistake by merging the two events together? Are there implications if the two portions were actually separate events?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby mark s on Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:49 pm

ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby shorttribber on Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:53 pm



I've never given this thread a real good solid study Mark...just a time thing....but I'm going to look it over better over the course of the next few weeks I think.

bless ya
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby 4givenmuch on Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:50 am

Mark, Thanks for linking that ... I missed it the first time around!
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:08 pm

Hi Mark,

That was a brilliant thread! Thanks for the link!

I note that you think that there is one discourse but Mark, Matthew and Luke gave different facets of it because each was written for different audience....And I would definitely agree with your conclusions.

What I was puzzled was Luke splitting the discourse into 2 portions... One in Chapter 17 and the rest in Chapter 21. Chapter 17 clearly was a different setting from Chapter 21... Could it be that Jesus mentioned the Noah and Lot comparison once before the discourse and then mentioned the Noah comparison once more during the discourse?

As a side note, I see Noah as a type of the victorious Christian and Lot as a type of the defeated Christian... But both are going up in the rapture!

Thanks so much once again for that wonderful bible study.

Love In Christ,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:39 pm

:hugs: our mods.
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:25 am

What I was puzzled was Luke splitting the discourse into 2 portions... One in Chapter 17 and the rest in Chapter 21. Chapter 17 obviously was a different setting from Chapter 21... Could it be that Jesus mentioned the Noah and Lot comparison once before the discourse and then mentioned the Noah comparison once more during the discourse?


And not only split to Luke 17 but also Luke12 if we taken into account the parable of the evil servant in Matthew 24:43-51.... why did Luke do that?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:46 am

https://bible.org/article/synoptic-problem


Just found this....

For a scholarly answer to the questions, the above link might shed some light on my questions above...

It argues for Markian Priority, Q material, and artistic arrangements of Markian and Q source by both Matthew and Luke who worked independently of each other...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:26 am

From the link above...

If one argues that the order is strictly chronological, there are four pieces of data which overrule this. First, there is occasional disagreement in the order. For example, many of Matthew’s parables in chapter 13 are found in Luke 8 or Luke 13. The scribe who approached Jesus about the great commandment is placed in the Passion Week in Matthew and Mark, and vaguely arranged elsewhere in Luke. Second, it is evident that quite a bit of material is grouped topically in the gospels—e.g., after the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew come several miracles by Jesus. Indeed, “Matthew has furthermore arranged his entire Gospel so that collections of narratives alternate with collections of sayings.”4 Third, the early patristic writers (e.g., Papias) recognized that the gospel writers did not follow a strict chronological arrangement. Fourth, there is a studied reserve in the gospels from pinpointing the dates of the various incidents. Introductory comments such as, “immediately,” “after this,” “on another occasion,” “one day,” etc. are the norm. In other words, there seems to be no intent on the part of the evangelists to present a strict chronological sequence of events.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:18 am

Answering Contradictions in the Gospels - Chronological Problems

A common objection to the inerrancy of Scripture, especially regarding the Gospels, is the "Synoptic Problem." The so-called "Synoptic Problem" is simply that the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) contradict each other. The first thing that people usually bring up is the problem of chronology in the Gospels. Usually this effects the placement of a story, such as, the placement of the story of the healing of the centurion's servant (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 7:1-10) or statements Jesus made such as in Matthew 8:11-12 and Luke 13:28-29. A lot of these "chronological contradictions" are because of a misunderstanding of the intent of the writers. People are familiar with the notion that Matthew wrote to a Jewish audience while Luke wrote to a gentile audience. Few people, however, take time to outline the Gospels themselves but rather try to read them side-to-side and point out "A ha! They are contradictory." If they did, they would find out that Matthew wrote thematically and not chronologically, and Luke and Mark wrote far more chronologically than did Matthew. This is not some isolated fact. Rather, when looking at the problem of the healing of the centurion's slave Shaffer writes, "Every commentator consulted agreed that Matthew has not presented these stories in a strictly chronological order. Again, a look at any harmony will reveal this." [1]


So, if we outline, Matthew it would look something like this in comparison to the other Gospels:

Ch 1 --> 2-->3-->14-->3-->4-->13-->4-->8-->4  [2]

This is easily explained when we outline Matthew's Gospel [3]:

1. The King's Advent (The prologue)
a. His Birth
b. His Entry into Public Ministry

2. The King's Authority
a. Discourse 1
b. Narrative 1

3. The King's Agenda
a. Discourse 2
b. Narrative 2

4. The King's Adversaries
a. Discourse 3
b. Narrative 3

5. The King's Administration
a. Discourse 4
b. Narrative 4

6. The King's Atonement
a. Discourse 5
b. Narrative 5

7. The King's Assignment (The Epilogue)
a. Matthew 28:16-20

By simply taking any class on literature, you learn that writers carefully plan out what their message is, and how they want to deliver their message. It is apparent that Matthew's approach to the book was to alternate Christ's discourses with pertinent narrative. Now it is easy to see why Matthew sometimes places events in Jesus' life out of chronological order.

_______________

References:

[1] Shaffer, J. TMSJ 17/1 (Spring 2006) 35-50.  Accessed from http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/17c.pdf
[2] http://www.bible-researcher.com/parallels.html#sect1
[3] MacArthur Study Bible

 
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am


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