Where s the Temple?

[mark s]

Hi William,

Once again I'll say that I really appreciate the way you approach study.

Let's follow this through a little bit . . .

Mark: ...I have a problem with "don't measure the outer court, as it is given over to the gentiles". Could that be the case in heaven?
Reply: Let's read it literally. "And the court the external [G1855 exothen] of the temple expel [G1544 ekballo, from G1537 ek/out (of) + G906 ballo/throw] outside [G1544 exo]". So, the exterior court of God's Temple is to be cast out outside -- outside of what? Outside of heaven is the reasonable answer. After all, the Court of the Gentiles in OT days was the place where unsanctified/uncircumcised Gentiles were allowed, but no closer. In heaven, no unsanctified souls will be allowed at all.

My question for you is this. If no unsanctified souls are allowed in heaven, how is it that there is an outer court to be cast out?

Doesn't the passage in questions presuppose a temple with an outer court, and the outer court is being cast out? If the meaning is "cast out of heaven", how is it that it would be in heaven in the first place?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[shorttribber]

But to stay with Matthew 25, I would assert that the only reason you understand it to be a parable, or not really the way it's given, is that you cannot imagine a place where it could happen, and that it doesn't fit with your understandings from other passages. Please correct me if I misunderstand you.

Well yes, you are misunderstanding in part because my understanding of it does add greater strength to my position.
But if it is to be understood in the literal sense it still does not change the timing of shorttrib/prewrath.
What it does, if it will be fulfilled as I'm thinking, is give a great deal of encouragement and understanding to the saints during the Sorting that will occur during the great trib (3.5).

That's how I see it, it could be fulfilled as you're saying, but it doesn't present a timing problem for shorttrib.

I think we need to simply stay with the way the passages present themselves.

I agree, but I think the prophetic books present themselves in a better sense if understood in the Spirit of the Prophecy rather than rigidly literal.

If we are free to declare that passages are meant to be understood in some spiritual sense, but not for what they say in their plain direct sense, then how do we know where to stop? And who says what everything means?

We know where to stop when Christ and Sound Doctrine no longer have Pre-eminence.

And by that, I do not mean grey areas, or things not Absolutely Known, in other words, Dogma; The Line is drawn when the Dogma of Christ is supplanted by errant scriptural interpretation.

[mark s]

But to stay with Matthew 25, I would assert that the only reason you understand it to be a parable, or not really the way it's given, is that you cannot imagine a place where it could happen, and that it doesn't fit with your understandings from other passages. Please correct me if I misunderstand you.

Well yes, you are misunderstanding in part because my understanding of it does add greater strength to my position.
But if it is to be understood in the literal sense it still does not change the timing of shorttrib/prewrath.
What it does, if it will be fulfilled as I'm thinking, is give a great deal of encouragement and understanding to the saints during the Sorting that will occur during the great trib (3.5).

That's how I see it, it could be fulfilled as you're saying, but it doesn't present a timing problem for shorttrib.

HI ST,

I'm not talking directly about your other views in particular, rather that your basis for interpreting this prophecy as non-literal is not based on the language and wording of the prophecy itself, but is instead based on the fact that you have views based on other passages that give the effect of rendering this one non-literal. Am I making sense?

I had also referenced your comment that you didn't think it could physically occur because there would be so many people, but hopefully I've sufficiently answered that objections.

I think we need to simply stay with the way the passages present themselves.

I agree, but I think the prophetic books present themselves in a better sense if understood in the Spirit of the Prophecy rather than rigidly literal.

When you say, "rigidly literal", what does that mean exactly? There is "literal", and then there is "rigidly literal", do you mean a difference between these?

If we are free to declare that passages are meant to be understood in some spiritual sense, but not for what they say in their plain direct sense, then how do we know where to stop? And who says what everything means?

We know where to stop when Christ and Sound Doctrine no longer have Pre-eminence.

And by that, I do not mean grey areas, or things not Absolutely Known, in other words, Dogma; The Line is drawn when the Dogma of Christ is supplanted by errant scriptural interpretation.

My question is this.

Let's assume that we are all completely agree that Christ, and Sound Doctrine, are Pre-emanent. We believe that in our hearts.

Which passages should be spiritualized, taken as symbol or allegory even though no symbols are named, and none are defined, and which should not? And how can you know?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[shorttribber]

Excellent post mark, will answer all these later this evening...pressed with work in the shop.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Well yes, you are misunderstanding in part because my understanding of it does add greater strength to my position. But if it is to be understood in the literal sense it still does not change the timing of shorttrib/prewrath.
What it does, if it will be fulfilled as I'm thinking, is give a great deal of encouragement and understanding to the saints during the Sorting that will occur during the great trib (3.5).

<snip>

Mark, the bit I highlighted above, is what concerns me the most.

Sadly, I do not see the same scenario being played out in the scriptures, and I am fearful that when the "promised" no suffering occurs, supposedly in our immediate future, i.e. possibly within the next 5 years, the courage that the "saints" have will be quickly vaporise and they will be left with nothing to grasp onto to give them hope.

But perhaps that is just my problem to deal with? Do I know what it means to take up my cross and follow Him? Should we not take that part of the Bible literally?

[mark s]

<snip>

Well yes, you are misunderstanding in part because my understanding of it does add greater strength to my position. But if it is to be understood in the literal sense it still does not change the timing of shorttrib/prewrath.
What it does, if it will be fulfilled as I'm thinking, is give a great deal of encouragement and understanding to the saints during the Sorting that will occur during the great trib (3.5).

<snip>

Mark, the bit I highlighted above, is what concerns me the most.

Sadly, I do not see the same scenario being played out in the scriptures, and I am fearful that when the "promised" no suffering occurs, supposedly in our immediate future, i.e. possibly within the next 5 years, the courage that the "saints" have will be quickly vaporise and they will be left with nothing to grasp onto to give them hope.

But perhaps that is just my problem to deal with? Do I know what it means to take up my cross and follow Him? Should we not take that part of the Bible literally?

Hi Jay,

Who promises "no suffering"? Jesus said that we would be afflicted in this world. And if it's not happening to me right now, it most certainly is happening to many many believers, and could be happening to any of us at any time.

And yes, we most certainly are to "take up our crosses daily and follow Jesus". I believe that means to kill our flesh, or more precisely, embrace the slaughter of our flesh.

But I think you may be underrating God's power to energize our faith. Peter declared that we are "kept by the power of God through faith". I believe that God will do exactly that - guard us with His power.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

Hi mark

I think we are both on the same page. Unless we are prepared to put our lives on the line for God's Glory to be on displayed through our willingness to die for what we believe in, we have no faith/belief system in the power of God to protect/save us from the second death which was spoken about from the very beginning in Genesis 2:17.

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

I like the way you put that.



Although I'd have to stay with the Lake of Fire as the second death.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[shorttribber]

I'm not talking directly about your other views in particular, rather that your basis for interpreting this prophecy as non-literal is not based on the language and wording of the prophecy itself, but is instead based on the fact that you have views based on other passages that give the effect of rendering this one non-literal.

It's based much on the wording and prophecy itself, but not one prophecy stands alone, every one must be weighed against the others. But I have shown how the words used give it a Very Sound determination as to it's meaning
on your other recent thread.

I had also referenced your comment that you didn't think it could physically occur because there would be so many people, but hopefully I've sufficiently answered that objections.

Physically possible mathematically I guess, but just doesn't seem likely to me. There would be quite a bit of logistics to go along with just the physical space. And that could be taken care of miraculously by God I'm sure too. But, as I said, it is Possible to have a literal event occur. I just don't think that will be the case.
Seems like more of a stretch to comprehend the literal and much less strain, and in more agreement with the words and context themselves to comprehend as Spiritual.

When you say, "rigidly literal", what does that mean exactly? There is "literal", and then there is "rigidly literal", do you mean a difference between these?

By "rigidly literal", I mean by Naturally leaning and in some cases Straining toward the literal In Spite of very Sound Evidence to the Contrary.
In other words, Stubbornly clinging to the literal against any and all evidence against it.
"If the Plain Sense makes Sense, then you've discovered the True Sense".........OK, But that concept is Burdened with preconceptions, and you must admit that.

That brings me to this part next...

Let's assume that we are all completely agree that Christ, and Sound Doctrine, are Pre-emanent. We believe that in our hearts. Which passages should be spiritualized, taken as symbol or allegory even though no symbols are named, and none are defined, and which should not? And how can you know?

The prophetic books are overwhelmingly full of Spiritual language in general, that's the Reason for looking First to the Spirit of the Prophecy, and then Secondly to the Literal and not the other way around. Of course that can be debated, but I think that rule is wise and true, or at least a "Middle Ground" be argued for.
We should not, IMO, seek the Literal FIRST in the prophetic books.

You say " even though no symbols are named, and none are defined". What I've noticed mark is that you tend to look Verse by Verse and Word by Word for the "Symbols". But that symbol that you're looking for to validate the possibility of the meaning may not exist in that One Specific Verse, and may exist, and often does, in the Context of Several Verses, or an Entire Chapter.
That's one good reason to read the entire chapter of Isaiah 66........with the Specific Intention of Allowing (not Disallowing by Preconceived Ideas) the Meaning to be Understood in the Spirit of Prophecy.
The Testimony of Jesus IS the Spirit of Prophecy.

And how can you know?

Now I've just shown you how to Allow Your System, Method and Rule to be Tested.....but by your Own Willingness it must be done.

The Testimony OF Jesus IS the Spirit of prophecy.

[shorttribber]

Sadly, I do not see the same scenario being played out in the scriptures, and I am fearful that when the "promised" no suffering occurs, supposedly in our immediate future, i.e. possibly within the next 5 years, the courage that the "saints" have will be quickly vaporise and they will be left with nothing to grasp onto to give them hope.

I have never mentioned that there will be no suffering promised, especially for the saints, elect of God (us) during the great trib.

It must be that your comment was specifically for Mark based on his Pretrib view.

[Ready1]

Unless we are prepared to put our lives on the line for God's Glory to be on displayed through our willingness to die for what we believe in, we have no faith/belief system in the power of God to protect/save us from the second death which was spoken about from the very beginning in Genesis 2:17.

Jay, I also am in complete agreement with your statement.

[Ready1]

I'll go one step further. Men and women throughout the ages have been willing to die for the truth of the Gospel, and we must also be willing to give up this life (whether we have to or not) that we might gain eternal life.

[Jay Ross]

Ready1

It is our response within our circumstances that is important, to God, to the people who live around us and rub shoulders with us and to the people who may hear of the story of our response within our circumstances.

Our circumstances only help to shape our righteous character by the choices that we make within our circumstances.

So many so called "Christians" fail by the choices that they make when the going gets a little difficult for them.

When I went into a third world country over ten years ago, I had to be prepared to be killed or jailed for what I believed in before I left to go their. The same is true for where ever we unpack our bags/suitcases to live permanently within a place/town/county/nation.

[Ready1]

And while those of us in America appreciate and give thanks for our form of government and our heritage, true Christians must be prepared to live (or possibly die) under any form of government. As many of our worldwide brethren know, our opportunities as Christian men, women, boys & girls are not dependent upon a favorable governmental system, but rather upon our response to the opportunities and challenges of wherever we are and whatever the Lord places before us.

For myself, there are always three questions I ask myself regarding a specific challenge that I am undergoing.

Does God know what I am going through?
Could He change what I am going through?
What is my response to my challenge?

[Ready1]

I know the answer to the first two questions regardless of the challenge.

[Jay Ross]

The issue being raised in this thread, is "Where's the Temple?" The simple answer is within ourselves. The sad fact is that God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is often not found in our temple and the god that we place there looks so much like the person where the temple is housed that the god of that particular temple must be the person himself.

The funny thing is that it is so easy to do and we often do not realise that we have done it even when challenged.

[Exit40]

Ready 1, Jay Ross, our Temple is not empty, but I am hearing an echo !

God Bless You

David

[WilliamL]

mark s: Hi William, Once again I'll say that I really appreciate the way you approach study.
Reply: I like the way you make me stretch my understanding. I've always believed good questions are vital to good instruction.

Mark: Let's follow this through a little bit . . . [William said: ...the exterior court of God's Temple is to be cast out outside -- outside of what? Outside of heaven is the reasonable answer. After all, the Court of the Gentiles in OT days was the place where unsanctified/uncircumcised Gentiles were allowed, but no closer. In heaven, no unsanctified souls will be allowed at all.]
My question for you is this. If no unsanctified souls are allowed in heaven, how is it that there is an outer court to be cast out?
Reply: How come the folks with no wedding garment made it into heavenly wedding in the first place? Mt. 22:13
How come Jesus has to cast out {ekballo} his unprofitable servant from heaven in the first place? Mt. 25:30
How come Satan and his angels have to be cast {ballo} from heaven in Rev. 12?
When I said, "in heaven, no unsanctified souls will be allowed at all," I should have said more clearly, "will be allowed to stay in heaven." Clearly, some do get in, then are cast out. But this gets into some deep mystical issues, such as "the eye single" that Jesus spoke about.
When Jesus appears in the clouds, to be “seen by every eye,” Rev. 1:17; 6:16 [6th Seal], this seeing has to do with spiritual sight. It will freak most people out, and they will "hide themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains,
And sa[y] to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face..." Just like they essentially did at the First Shofar at Mount Sinai, Ex 20:18: "when the people saw, they removed, and stood afar off."
Now, there are people who are spiritually adept, shall we say, who will be able to withstand this spiritual opening, and will go in, and who will believe themselves to be worthy and chosen. But they have never born fruit, which make up the "fine linen" garments [Heb. lebhushim], "for the fine linen is the righteousness acts of the saints." Rev. 19:8
"Faith without works is garmentless," to paraphrase James.
I would presume that this outer court of the Gentiles consists of unsanctified believers. There is a great body of Christians who believe they are saved and are going to heaven, merely because they voiced the sinner's prayer, and maybe had some spiritual experience.

Mark: Doesn't the passage in questions presuppose a temple with an outer court, and the outer court is being cast out? If the meaning is "cast out of heaven", how is it that it would be in heaven in the first place?
Reply: So I believe I've answered that. Let me turn it on its head: if this is a physical temple and court, as so many believe, tell us how John -- because that is who the angel is addressing -- is going to pick it up bodily and cast/throw it? Now that makes far less sense than what I propose.

[Shelby]

Ezekiel's temple is described as the place of God's throne AND the place for the soles of His feet. Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool. Therefore, Ezekiel's temple is part earthly (below) and part heavenly (above up above the mountain). Heaven and earth will be connected. Some will live in the heavenly portion closer to Jesus while others will live farther away from Him on the earthly plane. New Jerusalem is above.

[Mrs. B]

Wheres the Temple?

I Corin. 3:16....Know ye not that Ye Are the Temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17...If any man Defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is Holy, Which Temple ye are...

Our bodies are the Temple of God...

I Corin. 3:9...For we are labourers together with God:
Ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's Building...

10....According to the Grace of God' which given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon..But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon..

11...For other foundation can no man lay that that is laid...Which is Jesus Christ.

12...NOW if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13...Every man's work shal be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall TRY Every man's work of what sort it is...
14...If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward..
15....If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: But he himself shall be saved; yet so as fire...

16...Know ye not that ye are the Temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17....If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the Temple of God is Holy, which Temple ye are..
18...Let no man deceive himself...

Mrs. B