Putin Gog/Magog?

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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:50 pm

Don't mean to interrupt, but i would agree that Gog and the AC are different individuals. The 'beast' of Dan 7:11 is not the AC, it is the 4th kingdom that is cast into the fire. The AC is the horn that speaks boastfully, and the passage does not indicate that the horn is killed and cast into the fire with the kingdom. So the point remains, Gog is buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured alive and cast alive into the lake of fire.

According to Rev 13 the AC speaks boastfully and has authority over every nation for 42 months. Gog leads an army of a relatively small number of nations, clearly not every nation.

In Rev 17 the AC is referred to as the beast from the Abyss. The Abyss is the place in which demons and fallen angels are confined, not men, so it would appear that the AC, while human, is also joined with or possessed by an entity from the Abyss. As Satan gives the AC his authority in Rev 13, this authority would likely be over the armies that come from the Abyss in Rev 9, armies that are not human but demonic with abilities beyond humankind. This is in contrast to Gog, who leads a limited number of human forces from the named nations.

And according to Isa 11, Israel will be regathered from among many nations twice, 'a second time'. While Israel was regathered from Babylon after the Babylonian captivity, she had not been regathered from all the nations listed in Isa 11, until the present day, which still has not yet been completed. This current regathering will likely be completed in the near future, after Gog-Magog occurs.

And if the US falls, who will Turkey side with, willingly or unwillingly? The EU? Russia? ISIS? Who then becomes the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal?
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:11 am

Hi 1whowaits,

Man, I was with ya until you mentioned this:

1whowaits wrote: As Satan gives the AC his authority in Rev 13, this authority would likely be over the armies that come from the Abyss in Rev 9, armies that are not human but demonic with abilities beyond humankind.


Not saying that you are doing this 1whowaits - but I really have some concerns when Believers attempt to "mystify" Scripture - or turn it into some sort of hocus pocus nonsense that makes good for a Science Fiction novel, but has no place in teaching the Word of God. I don't want to come across as being disrespectful or rude, so please forgive me if I appear to be that way. I just have some concerns over what you wrote, and certainly not you personally.

What is mentioned in the beginning of Revelation 9 are not armies, but "Locust" that come from the Abyss and torment men for 5 months. Later in Revelation 9 - verses 13-19 are Four Angels of the Abyss who kill a third of mankind through "Plagues". These are not armies. The armies that are described are indeed human. Nevertheless, the descriptive language throughout Revelation 9 has a symbolic meaning and not a literal one. To mention that there is an army that comes out of the Abyss, sort of sounds like the "Left Behind" series that had statues talking, a man rising from the dead and all sorts of mystical nonsense going on.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:58 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi 1whowaits,

Man, I was with ya until you mentioned this:

1whowaits wrote: As Satan gives the AC his authority in Rev 13, this authority would likely be over the armies that come from the Abyss in Rev 9, armies that are not human but demonic with abilities beyond humankind.


Not saying that you are doing this 1whowaits - but I really have some concerns when Believers attempt to "mystify" Scripture - or turn it into some sort of hocus pocus nonsense that makes good for a Science Fiction novel, but has no place in teaching the Word of God. I don't want to come across as being disrespectful or rude, so please forgive me if I appear to be that way. I just have some concerns over what you wrote, and certainly not you personally.

What is mentioned in the beginning of Revelation 9 are not armies, but "Locust" that come from the Abyss and torment men for 5 months. Later in Revelation 9 - verses 13-19 are Four Angels of the Abyss who kill a third of mankind through "Plagues". These are not armies. The armies that are described are indeed human. Nevertheless, the descriptive language throughout Revelation 9 has a symbolic meaning and not a literal one. To mention that there is an army that comes out of the Abyss, sort of sounds like the "Left Behind" series that had statues talking, a man rising from the dead and all sorts of mystical nonsense going on.


Not saying anything but Revelation 9 provides the following detail of who the king is over the swam of Locusts that rise up out of the abyss/bottomless pit when it is unlocked: -

Revelation 9:7-11: - (7) The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. (8 )They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. (9) And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. (10) They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. (11) And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
NKJV



Isaiah 24:21-22 tells us that the fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. angels, who are judged in heaven are imprisoned in the abyss/the bottomless pit to await their time of punishment. The four beasts of Daniel 7:1-8; 11-12and the little horn of Daniel 7:8 and 11a are fallen heavenly hosts/angels. Isaiah 24:21-22 also tell us that the armies of the kings who rebel on the earth are also judged and imprisoned in the "pit" with the fallen heavenly hosts/angels.

Perhaps, there is an error in my understanding of the scriptures mentioned above that you, Mr. Baldy, may like to clarify for the benefit of all of those, like me, who do not see it in the same way as you do.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:31 pm

Mr B, while some prophetic scripture can be figurative in its description, some passages are giving a literal description of things we have not encountered in our physical world. In Rev 4 and in Ezek 1 the angelic 'living creatures' are described in detail, and it would appear that this is a literal description of their appearance, although we have not seen these types of creatures in our world (or have we- have you seen the depictions of the ancient Egyptian gods? winged beings with animal heads?), they exist, and they appear exactly as they are described in scripture. When specific details are given in the description of these beings, the straightforward interpretation would be that this is their literal appearance.

In the spiritual world there are angelic beings that have fantastic appearances that literally exist. And we as humans are finding that through genetic manipulation we can modify and combine the appearance of any number of animals or humans, it is only a question of technology. So the physical appearance of physical beings can also be altered which has apparently happened before, in the Nephillium.

So when Rev 9 describes the locusts that come from the Abyss, the detailed description would suggest that this is their literal appearance, this is not a figurative depiction of reality, this is reality. These being come from the Abyss, the place of holding of demons and fallen angels, some of which may indeed be of the same makeup as the 4 living creatures. The living creatures are called Cherubim in Ezek, and at least 1 Cherubim fell, the most well known one being Satan- 'You were anointed as guardian Cherub...' Ezek 28.

In Rev 9 the 'locusts' have a king, they follow a leader, they have a hierarchy. Rev 9 also describes 4 angels who were bound being released, and the only place known were fallen angels are bound is the Abyss. So it would appear that the 6th trumpet is a continuation of what comes out of the Abyss, which are described as horses and riders numbering 200 million troops. The horses are not depicted as normal animals but as something akin to the locusts, something from the spiritual realm.

The most reasonable conclusion could then be that the 200 million troops are not human, they are non-human armies(troops) from the Abyss. As these troops are associated with the 4 fallen angels, it would appear that they follow the 4 fallen angels (4 living creatures?), and they kill humans or mankind, they appear to be separate from mankind which they kill. Rev 9 states that they kill 1/3 of mankind and the rest of mankind does not repent, suggesting again that the horses and rider are not of mankind, they are separate entities.

It appears that Satan is the most powerful of the fallen angels and the fallen ones follow him, which would likely include the king of the Abyss (the beast from the Abyss joined with the AC ?- Rev 17). Satan gives his authority to the AC in Rev 13, so then it would follow that the armies from the Abyss would follow the authority of the AC, as his authority is in reality Satan's authority.

This is not mystifying scripture, this is what scripture is describing as literal beings and events, the 'great tribulation' will be unlike anything ever seen before, as Jesus stated.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:58 am

Jay Ross wrote:Not saying anything but Revelation 9 provides the following detail of who the king is over the swam of Locusts that rise up out of the abyss/bottomless pit when it is unlocked: -


Revelation 9:7-11: - (7) The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. (8 )They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. (9) And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. (10) They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. (11) And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
NKJV


Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps, there is an error in my understanding of the scriptures mentioned above that you, Mr. Baldy, may like to clarify for the benefit of all of those, like me, who do not see it in the same way as you do.


Hi Jay Ross,

First let me say that I have mentioned this over and over again concerning the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation uses a lot of metaphorical and symbolic language to describe a literal event. Seems as if many want to take the descriptive and very metaphorical language and make a Science Fiction Novel as they read passages from it. We don't live in Fantasy land. Fiction like the "Left Behind" series has done so much damage to the Body of Christ with it's hocus pocus fairy tale like nonsense, that it's almost like trying to unscramble and egg once the egg has been cracked and stirred.

Believe it or not, we live in a fallen World. We have to deal with the invisible World on a continuous basis; namely with Demonic forces that are unseen that are HARD on the attack. What is described in the 9th Chapter of the Book of Revelation is no different - but is just on a more intensified scale. If we really understood what is written in the Book of Revelation and the Demonic forces that are mentioned as it relates to the amount of time that these forces have to deal with mankind - certainly you and others would completely understand that we are no match for them. They could kill us immediately. So we shouldn't try to mystify these events. The locust I believe are literal and they will torment men for 5 months - PERIOD. The fact that these same locust have a king has no bearing on what actions they will take - nor will it shorten the period described; or give some sort of special revelation as to what is going on during that time. I really think that men will NOT know. If you were to continue to read further in Revelation 9; namely verse 21 you will see that men do "not repent" of their various sins - they keep right on living, and living life as they normally do. Please understand that these are "Plagues" listed in Revelation 9 that will come upon the Earth during the Great Tribulation.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:55 am

1whowaits wrote:In the spiritual world there are angelic beings that have fantastic appearances that literally exist. And we as humans are finding that through genetic manipulation we can modify and combine the appearance of any number of animals or humans, it is only a question of technology. So the physical appearance of physical beings can also be altered which has apparently happened before, in the Nephillium.


Hi 1whowaits,

Sure there are angelic beings that have fantastic appearances that literally exist - that's why their angelic. But again, lets not try to mystify what God has intended us to learn. You have introduced Nephilim into this conversation and have erroneous stated that their physical appearance has been altered. Let me remind you that although the name "Nephilim" is not specifically mentioned in the Bible many have associated this term with "mighty men" and "men of renown" as mentioned in Genesis 6:1-6 - and have further erroneously attempted to describe them as the offspring of "Fallen Angels". They were "Fallen Mighty Men" - NOT angels; as the Spirit World is non sexual - nor can the Fallen Spirits become flesh without the permission of God - if so they would be still doing it today. Let me also add that this is the type of Mystical Nonsense that get's Believers confused and has absolutely no Scriptural support whatsoever - but this is another topic for another time.

1whowaits wrote:So when Rev 9 describes the locusts that come from the Abyss, the detailed description would suggest that this is their literal appearance, this is not a figurative depiction of reality, this is reality.


Now, this I agree with you on.

1whowaits wrote:In Rev 9 the 'locusts' have a king, they follow a leader, they have a hierarchy. Rev 9 also describes 4 angels who were bound being released, and the only place known were fallen angels are bound is the Abyss. So it would appear that the 6th trumpet is a continuation of what comes out of the Abyss, which are described as horses and riders numbering 200 million troops. The horses are not depicted as normal animals but as something akin to the locusts, something from the spiritual realm.


1whowaits wrote:The most reasonable conclusion could then be that the 200 million troops are not human, they are non-human armies(troops) from the Abyss. As these troops are associated with the 4 fallen angels, it would appear that they follow the 4 fallen angels (4 living creatures?), and they kill humans or mankind, they appear to be separate from mankind which they kill. Rev 9 states that they kill 1/3 of mankind and the rest of mankind does not repent, suggesting again that the horses and rider are not of mankind, they are separate entities.


1whowaits, I believe that you have this section of Revelation 9 "partially" right. Again, let's not try to turn what is written in the Book of Revelation into a Science Fiction Novel. The 4 angels that are released are allowed to kill a third of mankind - however, it is the "Smoke", "Fire" and "Brimstone" which are the Three Plagues that are literally used to bring forth this action.


1whowaits wrote:This is not mystifying scripture, this is what scripture is describing as literal beings and events, the 'great tribulation' will be unlike anything ever seen before, as Jesus stated.


1whowaits - I will agree with you that Jesus did mention that the Great Tribulation period will a time such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will - and unless those days had been cut short no life would have been saved. But let's put things into perspective:

Jesus goes on to say: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Jesus further states that the "Coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah". People will be eating and drinking, marrying and divorcing - and THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND.

So, if you take everything as written in the Book of Revelation and attempt to Mystify it, subsequently turning it into a Fairy Tale like readable Event - that you say is "literal" then people would understand - and this is contrary to what Scripture says.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:02 am

The army of 200million that kills 1/3 of mankind is human. It cannot be a demonic army because Revelation mentions ONLY 4 angels are released, not 200million. This is in contrast to the other trumpet in which an angel, abbadon, is released and hordes of locusts follow him out.

These 4 fallen angels will stir up the worst kind of hatred in 200million humans, coalescing them into a fighting force the world has never seen.

The fire, sulfer, brimstone used to kill is none other than bombs and guns, other weapons of war. Ask anyone who has ever fired guns or set off explosives before and ask what it smells like afterwards.

The horses, armored vehicals with mounted weapons (as well as real horses).

The colors, hyacinth blue, sulfuric yellow, fiery red... now you know the official banner colors of the empire of AC.

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/11/ ... eLarge.jpg

http://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.co ... 1433509707
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:34 am

kirthril wrote:The army of 200million that kills 1/3 of mankind is human. It cannot be a demonic army because Revelation mentions ONLY 4 angels are released, not 200million. This is in contrast to the other trumpet in which an angel, abbadon, is released and hordes of locusts follow him out.


Hi Kirthril,

Now this is where I believe that 1whowaits has it right. The 200 million that kills are demonic, because it occurs in conjunction with the Sixth Trumpet. The "human armies" that you are referring to are from Asia by the way - and aren't apparent until the 7th Trumpet. If you'll read further in Revelation 9 you'll see that it is actually the Three Plagues - Smoke; Fire; and Brimstone that actually kills mankind - and proceed from the mouths of the horses that this demonic force is riding on. I personally believe that this is symbolic language to describe the effects of a Nuclear WAR and/or Bombs.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:12 pm

Mr B, what i was attempting to point out is that while much of what is depicted in Rev is figurative, some of the descriptions are literal, the difficulty can be determining which is which.

The depiction of the beast in Rev 17 is figurative, the AC does not have 7 heads. The passage describes the beast in a figurative manner and then goes on to give an explanation of the meanings of what is depicted figuratively.

This is in contrast to the description of the living creatures, the description appears to be a literal description of the appearances of the living creatures. There is no explantion or additional meaning given to the description of the living creatures, it stands alone. And the description of the living creatures is backed up by the description in Ezekiel 1. Also the living creatures perform a literal function perform literal acts, what they do and they way they appear are literally described in scripture, it is not figurative.

So when Rev 9 describes the 'locusts' from the Abyss, does the description of their appearance fit the figurative examples or the literal examples? The actions that they perform appear to be literal, and no other explanation is given for their appearance as is the case of the beast in Rev 17. The 'horses' of Rev 9 also perform literal actions and no additional explanation is given for their appearance.

These descriptions of the locusts and horses and riders of Rev 9 would appear to be literal descriptions of their appearance, not figurative as in the case of the beast of Rev 17. And what is described in Rev 9 is not human or not completely human or any known animal, they are something else. Which would suggest that the 200 million troops described in this context are also not human, which is something no one wishes to contemplate. If this were indeed accurate, it would put Gog-magog and armageddon in completely different categories of severity.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:16 pm

1whowaits wrote: And what is described in Rev 9 is not human or not completely human or any known animal, they are something else. Which would suggest that the 200 million troops described in this context are also not human, which is something no one wishes to contemplate. If this were indeed accurate, it would put Gog-magog and armageddon in completely different categories of severity.


Hi 1whowaits,

I have completely agreed with you - when I responded to Kirthril with this:

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Kirthril, Now this is where I believe that 1whowaits has it right. The 200 million that kills are demonic, because it occurs in conjunction with the Sixth Trumpet. The "human armies" that you are referring to are from Asia by the way - and aren't apparent until the 7th Trumpet. If you'll read further in Revelation 9 you'll see that it is actually the Three Plagues - Smoke; Fire; and Brimstone that actually kills mankind - and proceed from the mouths of the horses that this demonic force is riding on. I personally believe that this is symbolic language to describe the effects of a Nuclear WAR and/or Bombs.


1whowaits, where you and I have a disagreement with is I don't take a "Science Fiction"; or "Mystical" type outlook on metaphorical language that is used to describe literal events. The actions that are carried out by metaphorical and/or symbolic characters mentioned in Scripture "often" have to be compared to what is REAL as we know it in the life we live today.

For an example.... the 200 million demonic forces - whatever they may be will not be seen by we who are men in physical form. They will be present carrying out their mission which is REAL, meaning the Three Plagues which are REAL can be seen; heard; and felt by those who will be killed by them. In other words the plagues are a tangible element that men can relate to - but the demonic forces which are invisible, men cannot. So I try to keep it REAL based on Scripture, and not turn it into some sort of hocus pocus Science Fiction type nonsense that men cannot relate to. This is why I have mentioned that the Three Plagues appear to be something that is derived from Nuclear War or some type of Bombing activity.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:59 pm

Mr B, i understand your point, i just believe scripture indicates that things will be worse than we imagine. The beings that come from the Abyss may be demons or fallen angels or both as both reside in the Abyss. I believe that they will be a visible force with a physical presence based on other scriptures.

The 5th trumpet does appear to be consistent with Satan being cast down to earth as described in Rev 12, and the fallen angels come with him. Rev 12 refers to Satan spewing forth a river to destroy Israel, which i believe is a reference to the opening of the Abyss and the release of demonic forces.

This may also be referred to in Isa 28, which discusses the covenant with death, believed to be a reference to the covenant with the AC. Isa 28 states that 'water will overflow your hiding place, your covenant with death will be annulled..when the overwhelming scourge sweeps by, you will be beaten down by it..', possibly a parallel description to the spewing forth by Satan of a force to destroy Israel.

And then Isa 28 states something interesting- 'the understanding of this message will bring sheer terror. The bed is to short to stretch out on, the blanket to narrow to wrap around you..' The understanding of the message would appear to be that the bed is too short and the blanket too narrow when you are abnormally large as in a giant, which is scripture usually is a reference to the Nephillium.

The Nephillium are described as the offspring of the joining of the sons of God, believed to be angels, and human women, producing a genetic anomaly, gigantism. This type of offspring should not occur regularly from 2 humans, indicating that the sons of God are not human but are likely fallen angels. And Isa 28 does refer to someone mocking God who are held in chains, an apparent reference to fallen angles held in chains described in Jude.

In any case demons are believed to be the disembodied spirits of the Nephilium, who wander the earth looking for a body to take over, or who are sent to the Abyss. So for demonic beings to become a physical force in the physical world they would only need bodies to take over, which is what Rev 9 may be discussing -'their faces resembled human faces...during those days men will seek death, but will not find it..'

My point being that the GT and armageddon are several magnitudes more terrible than Gog-magog could ever be, in reality there is no comparison.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:12 am

1whowaits wrote:The Nephillium are described as the offspring of the joining of the sons of God, believed to be angels, and human women, producing a genetic anomaly, gigantism. This type of offspring should not occur regularly from 2 humans, indicating that the sons of God are not human but are likely fallen angels. And Isa 28 does refer to someone mocking God who are held in chains, an apparent reference to fallen angles held in chains described in Jude.


Hi 1whowaits,

I'm in agreement with most of what you have mentioned. However, the aforementioned comment is a very huge assumption and not Scripturally sound. "Mysticism" is where I personally draw the line. To incorporate mythology into Scripture is a huge "No-No". There have been other threads here on Nephilim - and they all have been unresolved as to it's true meaning. Scripture is very clear that the "Nephilim" were "Mighty Men" Of old "Mighty Men of Renown" or the "sons of God". Fallen angels or any other spirit beings do not have the ability to procreate. If this were possible, they could still do it today, and would have taken over the planet by now. It was man's wickedness that caused the flood, not the offspring of fallen angels.

Here is Genesis 6:1-4:

When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2) the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3) Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 )The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.


Genesis 6:5-8 - shows the result of man's wickedness:

5)The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6) And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. 7) So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8) But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.



1whowaits wrote:The Nephillium are described as the offspring of the joining of the sons of God, believed to be angels, and human women, producing a genetic anomaly, gigantism. This type of offspring should not occur regularly from 2 humans, indicating that the sons of God are not human but are likely fallen angels. And Isa 28 does refer to someone mocking God who are held in chains, an apparent reference to fallen angles held in chains described in Jude.


As you have mentioned: "Believed to be" - pure skepticism. We can't take something that is "believed to be" and make Doctrine out of it. Scripture gives a very clear account of the angels who did not keep their first estate being cast into hell to await judgment (Jude 6 & 2 Peter 2:4). There is nothing in Scripture that indicates WHAT the sin was that these angels committed and subsequently caused them to fall and to be bound to hell. Moreover, it would appear that these same Fallen angels were cast into Hell and bound at the very same time Satan rebelled against God - which was prior to the creation of man. So the question is: If they were bound in hell to await Judgment, who freed them - and what bodies did they possess to become human? I don't think one can answer that - it's a rhetorical question.

How one gathers that Nephilim are the offspring of Fallen angels is beyond me.

Nevertheless that's a topic for another time and/or thread.

1whowaits wrote:My point being that the GT and armageddon are several magnitudes more terrible than Gog-magog could ever be, in reality there is no comparison.


I will agree with that. :sunshine:
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:47 am

Mr Baldy wrote:<SNIP>

As you have mentioned: "Believed to be" - pure skepticism. We can't take something that is "believed to be" and make Doctrine out of it. Scripture gives a very clear account of the angels who did not keep their first estate being cast into hell to await judgment (Jude 6 & 2 Peter 2:4). There is nothing in Scripture that indicates WHAT the sin was that these angels committed and subsequently caused them to fall and to be bound to hell. Moreover, it would appear that these same Fallen angels were cast into Hell and bound at the very same time Satan rebelled against God - which was prior to the creation of man. So the question is: If they were bound in hell to await Judgment, who freed them - and what bodies did they possess to become human? I don't think one can answer that - it's a rhetorical question.

<SNIP>


Mr. Baldy, I agree, "We can't take something that is "believed to be" and make Doctrine out of it." but that is what you have done in the above paragraph, when you made the following claim: - " Moreover, it would appear that these same Fallen angels were cast into Hell and bound at the very same time Satan rebelled against God - which was prior to the creation of man."

Can you substantiate this claim of yours? My understanding is that the Bible is silent on this particular topic. But then perhaps I do not know the Bible as well as you do as I do not recall the particular passage from scripture which provides the information that would confirm what you have just claimed.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:59 pm

Mr B, ok just putting out a theory about what Rev 9 is describing. Scripture states nothing about angels procreating, just that they don't marry. What i am referring to is not necessarily procreation but genetic manipulation. If you understand genetics you understand that what Gen 6 describes of the giants/Nepillium is not normal human procreation. And as Nephillium appeared after the flood it appears that fallen angels may have continued their genetic manipulation even after the flood. What is described as coming out of the Abyss could be explained by the use of such genetic manipulation. Again i am not talking about procreation but the ability to reorder genetic material to form an unnatural being, which human scientists themselves now have the ability to do and are doing so, combining human and animal DNA.

In Gen 3 God stated that He would put enmity between the serpent's/Satan's offspring and the offspring of the woman. Satan has offspring?
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:50 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Mr. Baldy, I agree, "We can't take something that is "believed to be" and make Doctrine out of it." but that is what you have done in the above paragraph, when you made the following claim: - "Moreover, it would appear that these same Fallen angels were cast into Hell and bound at the very same time Satan rebelled against God - which was prior to the creation of man."


Jay Ross wrote:Can you substantiate this claim of yours? My understanding is that the Bible is silent on this particular topic. But then perhaps I do not know the Bible as well as you do as I do not recall the particular passage from scripture which provides the information that would confirm what you have just claimed.


Hi Jay Ross,

Thank you for first of all making a very important observation, and second of all for asking a very important question. I have embolden the comment I made. As you have mentioned the Bible is silent on the timing of when the Fallen Angels actually fell. Where I have drawn my conclusion is through what Scripture has presented through reasonable deduction.

Let's take a look at Creation itself. The Angelic Host was created prior to man, and Satan certainly fell before he could ever attempt to deceive Eve first, then Adam - and subsequently cause the fall of mankind. Job 38:4-7 clearly establishes a term for the "sons of God" were the Angelic Host - however, the term "sons of God" are not limited to Angels - as Genesis 6:4 clearly establishes that the "sons of God" as "Mighty Men" who were of "Men of Renown" as well.

Here is Job 38:4-7 in which God Himself is questioning Job about when the World was Created:

4) “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5) Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6) On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone — 7) while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?


The aforementioned passages of Scripture clearly lay the foundation that the Angelic Host was created prior to the creation of man. Satan fell prior to the creation of man - or else how would he have been able to deceive Adam and Eve?' Now that takes us to what 2 Peter 2:4-5 which reads:

4) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5) if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others


AND Jude 6:

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.


Now, Jay Ross.......... If you will just look at the two separate passages of Scripture that I have provided, you will see that those Angels who Sinned - when they sinned were cast into Hell by God Himself. Again, this was prior to the creation of man - as they had Fallen with Satan as indicated in Revelation 12:7-9.

Revelation 12:7-9 reads:

7) And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.


Now, in closing, and as I have mentioned when Satan Fell - so did the Angels who sinned; or else how would Satan have angels? This was prior to the creation of man - or else how could Satan have deceived Eve then Adam? So the hole theory about the Nephilim, which is nothing more than a fancy term to replace those born to the Mighty Men of Renown and their sinful women - as GIANTS - just flat out cannot be supported with Scripture. Angels never have been, nor will ANY Spirit being ever be able to procreate. That's just mythological nonsense, and just simply does not add up when Scripture is applied.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:15 pm

1whowaits wrote:Mr B, ok just putting out a theory about what Rev 9 is describing. Scripture states nothing about angels procreating, just that they don't marry. What i am referring to is not necessarily procreation but genetic manipulation. If you understand genetics you understand that what Gen 6 describes of the giants/Nepillium is not normal human procreation. And as Nephillium appeared after the flood it appears that fallen angels may have continued their genetic manipulation even after the flood.


Hi 1whowaits,

Again, you have no Scriptural evidence to back up your theory. Scripture clearly establishes why God destroyed the Earth with a Flood. The Nephilim - who are nothing more than Giants are mentioned; but here is the real cause:

Genesis 6:5-8

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6) The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7) The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8) But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.


In closing......... I think the aforementioned passages of Scripture clearly speaks for itself. It is not about the Nephilim or the Giants that possessed the land in those days - but the SIN that man continued to commit, and the nature of man's heart in his fallen state. So to use a foundation based on Mystical - Greek like Mythology and attempt to incorporate it into Scripture is way off base; very bad hermeneutics - and has no place in the exegesis of Scripture.

I'm sorry 1whowaits, I just can't buy into the "theory" you have presented.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:35 am

Mr B.

It seems that you have also overlooked what we are told in Revelation 20:1-4 where it distinctly states the following: -

Revelation 20:1-3: - 20:(1) Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. (2) He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; (3) and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
NKJV


What you have not answered is when, on the timeline of man's journey, Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit? I do agree with you that and all of his fallen angels/heavenly hosts are imprisoned at the same time in the Bottomless pit.

Isaiah 24:21-22 suggests that Revelation 12:7-9 occurs when the kings of the earth rebel against God and they are judged and imprisoned at that time. This, from my understanding, is a near future event which will probably occur within the next 30 or so years, but you sir have placed this event over 6,000 years back before man was even created.

This reasonable deduction, which you have stated, makes it sound like mythological nonsense to me which has no real scriptural bases on which to draw any conclusions from.

Perhaps, my ignorance is letting me down when I suggest that Satan's imprisonment it is a near future event.

What I do know is that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are four fallen heavenly hosts who are also acknowledged as "kings" who up and until their respective dominions are removed from them, exercise their influence over the people of the earth who chose to inhabit their respective dominions.

I also know that when their dominions are taken from them that the Son of man is given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him.

I also know that after the kings of the fifth segment of the Daniel 2's statue prophecy have entered and exercised dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans that God will establish His everlasting Kingdom here on the earth, which will never be destroyed.

I also know from Genesis 1:2 that the Abyss/bottomless pit has been a reality from the very first "day" of creation and that it has been cover by darkness ever since.

But your conclusions, it seems to me, are not a good bases for you to debunk another point of view.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:56 am

Jay Ross wrote:Isaiah 24:21-22 suggests that Revelation 12:7-9 occurs when the kings of the earth rebel against God and they are judged and imprisoned at that time. This, from my understanding, is a near future event which will probably occur within the next 30 or so years, but you sir have placed this event over 6,000 years back before man was even created.


Hi Jay Ross,

You bring up an interesting point. However, this is where reasonable deduction comes in. I have shown where Scripture has provided a timeline when Satan was cast out of Heaven, and those angels who sinned along with him. Again, I have proved this was prior to the creation of man - or at the very least sometime after Adam and Eve were created. So, this 6,000+ timeline you have mentioned would be correct in my estimation.

Now, you have presented Revelation 12:7-9, which clearly shows that Satan and his angels wages war against Michael and his angels (A future event as you have mentioned). Using reasonable deduction, we must look at Scripture as a whole. When Satan and his angels were cast out - the angels were mentioned as being "sent to hell where they were "committed" to the pits of darkness" (2 Peter 2:4). So we must look at the word "committed" and understand the language here. I suggest that it does not negate the fact that they were indeed cast out into darkness - however still allowed to roam the Earth as Satan does, even have access into Heavenly places as mentioned in Ephesians 6:12:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.


We also know from Scripture that Satan, although being cast out from Heaven still has access to the Throne of God. I suggest again, using "reasonable deduction" that the term "committed" as applied to the fallen angels, although cast out of heaven they have not received their permanent place of Judgment yet - as apparently they still have access to the heavens as well. Again, as mentioned in Ephesians 6:12 - and 2 Peter 2:4.

If you notice, in Revelation 20:1-3 when the angel is describe as coming down from heaven holding the key to they abyss and a chain he catches Satan; bounds him; throws him into the abyss; shutting it and further seals it for a thousand years. Nowhere else in Scripture are all these actions mentioned to contain any other fallen angel. Even this place of containment is only "temporary" - that being for 1,000 years at which time Satan will be let loose for the "little season" to deceive the Nations - and he will ultimately end up of in the Lake of Fire with ALL Evildoers.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:19 pm

Mr. Baldy,

You must be right based on your scriptural deductions, but as you have also stated we must consider all of scripture to be absolutely sure that our deductions are reasonably sound.

This is where, your argument/deductions seems to fall apart as you do not seem to give equal weight to all of the scriptural passages and only use such scripture which supports your strongly held views.

You tell us that the fallen heavenly host are being confined to places of darkness but that they also have access to heaven and the throne room of God at any time of their own choosing. It seems to me that the issue where your argument begins to fall apart is your understanding of the darkness that the fallen heavenly hosts/angels inhabit after they have fallen.

My view is that this darkness is the same darkness that human beings inhabit when they are not in right relationship with God and that this darkness binds us in its darkness until such time as we are judged and then punished. The difference between the fallen heavenly hosts and humans is that we humans have a limited life span (i.e. now 120 years) within this present world whereas there is no limitation on the life span of the heavenly hosts until such time that the fallen heavenly hosts are dispatched into the lake of Fire.

If being confined to darkness means a state of mind and not a physical location as seems to be your definition, then your deductions are soundly based on your own understanding and not on the understanding that the scriptures portray.

It all comes down to our own personal understanding and the "enlightenment" that we chose to life within and whatever that may mean.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:45 pm

Jay Ross wrote:You tell us that the fallen heavenly host are being confined to places of darkness but that they also have access to heaven and the throne room of God at any time of their own choosing. It seems to me that the issue where your argument begins to fall apart is your understanding of the darkness that the fallen heavenly hosts/angels inhabit after they have fallen.


Hey Jay Ross, read this - AGAIN:

Mr Baldy wrote:Now, you have presented Revelation 12:7-9, which clearly shows that Satan and his angels wages war against Michael and his angels (A future event as you have mentioned). Using reasonable deduction, we must look at Scripture as a whole. When Satan and his angels were cast out - the angels were mentioned as being "sent to hell where they were "committed" to the pits of darkness" (2 Peter 2:4). So we must look at the word "committed" and understand the language here. I suggest that it does not negate the fact that they were indeed cast out into darkness - however still allowed to roam the Earth as Satan does, even have access into Heavenly places as mentioned in Ephesians 6:12:


For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.


What I previously wrote was "clarification" after obtaining the written Scriptural verbiage verbatim from 2 Peter 2:4 - and subsequently following it up with "confirmation" based on what is written in Ephesians 6:12 - which shows that these same Fallen angels are what we as Believers deal with and or struggle against on a daily basis. This was conducted from the Scriptural evidence you produced in Revelation 12:7-9. So, you can throw your term "confined" out of this equation as it is a term that I did not use - and further indicates that you have "read into" my comments.

What is it Jay Ross - do you always scrutinize a matter in which others provide Sound Scriptural Evidence to support their theories when it goes against your self interpretation?

Please remember that Scripture is of no "private interpretation".

Let me state that I don't have all the answers - but when I do supply one, it will be and always has been totally based and founded on Scripture, and Scripture alone. If not, I will admit that it is in my opinion. Admittedly you have provided some good points on various threads that you have posted and/or have supplied a response to - but honestly, and with all due respect......some of your interpretations leave a lot to be desired. You're my Brother in Christ, and we should attempt to edify one another in love, and not automatically come to the defense looking for problems with what someone else has written.

In closing.... I don't see any problems with what I have written, and I believe that I have supplied adequate Scripture to support what I have mentioned . Now you may not agree, but that's okay too. :sunshine:
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:19 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:,snip>

Let me state that I don't have all the answers - but when I do supply one, it will be and always has been totally based and founded on Scripture, and Scripture alone. If not, I will admit that it is in my opinion. Admittedly you have provided some good points on various threads that you have posted and/or have supplied a response to - but honestly, and with all due respect......some of your interpretations leave a lot to be desired. You're my Brother in Christ, and we should attempt to edify one another in love, and not automatically come to the defense looking for problems with what someone else has written.

In closing.... I don't see any problems with what I have written, and I believe that I have supplied adequate Scripture to support what I have mentioned . Now you may not agree, but that's okay too. :sunshine:


Mr B this is just your opinion and many respect that it is just your opinion that when you supply an answer that it is founded on scripture and your understanding of that scripture and as such it is just your opinion as to what is being stated in scripture. This view is true for all who have in the past, now in the present and also in our future who write commentary on what the scriptures mean.

Just because I/you believe that I/you am/are right does not make what we write absolutely right and beyond reproach.

On the Subject of "committed" the English translations that I checked, this word was not found in 2 Peter 2:4. But then again ...... it seems that ........ you are telling me that it is.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:28 am

Jay Ross wrote:On the Subject of "committed" the English translations that I checked, this word was not found in 2 Peter 2:4. But then again ...... it seems that ........ you are telling me that it is.


Did you check the NASB Version of the Bible?

If not, here it is for you plainly:

2 Peter 2:4-5 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4) For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5) and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly


In case you didn't know the NASB Bible is considered to be the "Most Accurate" Word for Word Translation of Scripture.

Here is a little bit of History on the NASB Bible:

New American Standard Bible - History

The New American Standard Bible (NASB) has evolved from the American Standard Version (ASV) of 1901. The ASV, in turn, was the American version of the Revised Version (RV) of 1885, also called the English Revised Version (ERV). While preserving the literal accuracy of the ASV, the NASB sought to render grammar and terminology in contemporary English. Special attention was given to the rendering of verb tenses to give the English reader a rendering as close as possible to the sense of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. In 1995, the text of the NASB was updated for greater understanding and smoother reading. In an effort to ensure accuracy, recent research on the oldest and best Greek manuscripts of the New Testament was reviewed, and some passages were updated for even greater fidelity to the original manuscripts. The original NASB earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation. The New American Standard Bible update (1995) carried on the NASB tradition of being a true Bible translation, revealing what the original manuscripts actually say—not merely what the translator believes they mean.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:52 pm

Mr B.

It is just an opinion that the NASB "is considered to be the "Most Accurate" Word for Word Translation of Scripture."

However, NT:3860 has, it appears, a number of interpretations which may be justified by the particular committee responsible for that translation, in this case the NASB. In looking a little wider, the NASB, seems to have followed the tradition of the RSV before it.

Be that as it may be, it would seem that we agree that the execution of judgement against the fallen heavenly angels who have sinned against God is still a distant future event, however it would seem that we disagree on when the fallen heavenly hosts will be finally imprisoned in the Abyss such that they can have no influence over the peoples of the world.

I have suggested that they will be imprisoned shortly in our near future when the Abyss/the Bottomless Pit is locked shut and the fallen heavenly angels are placed in chains. It seems to me that the "demons," i.e. fallen "lessor" heavenly hosts have not, at this point in time, been imprisoned since Christ dealt with them on a number of occasions during the time of His first advent ministry. In fact, binding demons is a valid ministry still being conducted today by those people who have this gift and authority to do so.

Mr. B. can you provide a timeline which sets out when these events actually do take place concerning the fallen heavenly hosts, whether they be considered "kings" or "princes" or "lessor" fallen heavenly hosts?
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:38 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Mr. B. can you provide a timeline which sets out when these events actually do take place concerning the fallen heavenly hosts, whether they be considered "kings" or "princes" or "lessor" fallen heavenly hosts?


Hi Jay Ross,

I'm not so sure that I understand what you are asking. But if I do understand you correctly, I don't think that Scripture has provided an answer to your question as far as a beginning point when the rebellious angelic host fell, that is why I used "reasonable deduction" and mentioned that it had to be prior to the creation of Adam and Eve or very shortly thereafter their creation. I say shortly thereafter because in Genesis 5:3 - Adam's age is given as 130 years old when he fathered Seth. (I believe this is the very first time his age is mentioned) So from the time that he was created to at least 130 years later we know that the fall of the rebellious angels and men had already occurred. As far as when the fallen angelic host are finally judged - well...... the closest I can believe that Scripture mentions on that is when death and Hades are finally cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:14) But again, this is using reasonable deduction - and taking into account that although the fallen angels still are able to apparently roam the earth and wage war alongside of Satan against the Archangel Michael and his angels; it appears as if they haven't received their final Judgment yet. And I'm not so sure that the ability to roam the earth applies to ALL of the fallen angelic host. This is why what I have mentioned thus far, is most certainly my very humble opinion. :mrgreen:
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:49 am

If I may jump in here. Both me and Exit40 have listed scripture in another thread. These scriptures show that the AC is indeed killed "in the pit" where the strongest nations sent by God destroy him.

Isaiah 14:8-20
Ezekiel 28:1-19
These are 2 such, there are several others. The AC is indeed killed and buried along with the masses.

Such verses clearly indicate that the kings and the nations and Israel and travelers will look upon the body of the AC and wonder "is this the man who terrorized the nations, who trampled them down so?"

How can people ask such? How can people gaze at the body of the AC if he is physically thrown in the lake of fire?

That's because he isn't physically thrown in. His soul is sent straight to the lake of fire upon death. Unlike everyone else whose soul goes to death/hades, the AC is sent straight to the final damnation. The AC has his "white throne judgment" right then and there while he is in his last moments, sentenced to the lake "while he is alive". His body will remain here on earth.

Think about it. Every other person who gets sentenced to the lake, gets sentenced long after they die waiting till the very end.
....

So you take these scriptures into account, as well as others I haven't shown you will see that the death of the AC is written about in many places. Such proof is one of the reasons I believe that the AC/Gog are the same.
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:00 am

kirthril wrote:If I may jump in here. Both me and Exit40 have listed scripture in another thread. These scriptures show that the AC is indeed killed "in the pit" where the strongest nations sent by God destroy him. Isaiah 14:8-20Ezekiel 28:1-19 These are 2 such, there are several others. The AC is indeed killed and buried along with the masses.


Hi Kirthril,

Let's take a closer look at the verses you have put forth to make your argument:

Isaiah 14:8-20

8) “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’ 9)“Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10) “They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. 11) ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’12)“How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!13)“But you said in your heart,‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. 14) ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’15) “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit. 16) “Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17) Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?’ 18) “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb. 19) “But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse. 20) “You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever


Now.....the aforementioned passages of Scripture are clearly speaking about the King of Babylon of that time, and uniting it with the Fall of Satan. How one would get that this is referring to the coming Antichrist or eve Gog is beyond me. I have embolden the language in this particular passage of Scripture that you have presented to show some of the very literal descriptive actions that clearly apply to Satan.

Now lets look at Ezekiel 20:1-19:

1) The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, 2) “Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God— 3) Behold, you are wiser than Daniel; There is no secret that is a match for you. 4) “By your wisdom and understanding You have acquired riches for yourself And have acquired gold and silver for your treasuries. 5) “By your great wisdom, by your trade You have increased your riches And your heart is lifted up because of your riches— 6) Therefore thus says the Lord God, ‘Because you have made your heart Like the heart of God, 7) Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, The most ruthless of the nations. And they will draw their swords Against the beauty of your wisdom And defile your splendor. 8)
‘They will bring you down to the pit, And you will die the death of those who are slain In the heart of the seas. 9) Will you still say, “I am a god,” In the presence of your slayer, Though you are a man and not God, In the hands of those who wound you? 10) ‘You will die the death of the uncircumcised By the hand of strangers, For I have spoken!’ declares the Lord God!”’” 11) Again the word of the Lord came to me saying, 12) “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13) “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets Was in you. On the day that you were created
They were prepared. 14) “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15) “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16) “By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. 17) “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you. 18) “By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.19) “All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever.”’”


Again, the aforementioned passage of Scripture is now talking about the King of Tyre; his pride; the fall of Satan - and the comparisons thereof. This has absolutely nothing to do with the coming Antichrist or Gog. Scripture has to be read and interpreted in light of Scripture. How one can make an argument that either of those verses of Scripture that you have presented can make the coming Antichrist and Gog one in the same is just simply beyond me - when they have absolutely nothing to do with one another.

kirthril wrote:Such verses clearly indicate that the kings and the nations and Israel and travelers will look upon the body of the AC and wonder "is this the man who terrorized the nations, who trampled them down so?"


Kirthril, I have posted the passages of Scripture that you have presented for your argument. It doesn't add up. If you'll look at Isaiah 14:16 - which is describing Satan; and Ezekiel 28:17-18 which is also describing Satan you may clearly see the discrepancy. Both of the passages of Scripture that you have presented are making comparisons of two very different Kings of two very different time periods - and Satan has been incorporated to show the comparisons of the Heart of each of these individuals.

kirthril wrote:How can people ask such? How can people gaze at the body of the AC if he is physically thrown in the lake of fire? That's because he isn't physically thrown in. His soul is sent straight to the lake of fire upon death. Unlike everyone else whose soul goes to death/hades, the AC is sent straight to the final damnation. The AC has his "white throne judgment" right then and there while he is in his last moments, sentenced to the lake "while he is alive". His body will remain here on earth.


Kirthril, again......with all due respect, what you have written above is very much in contrast to what is written in Scripture; namely the Book of Revelation - which gives a warning not to add to or take away from what has been recorded in that particular Book. Before I post the information concerning the coming Antichrist's demise - who is also known as the "Beast" in the Book of Revelation. I would like to ask you to please provide Scripture where "The AC has his 'white throne judgment'? I have never seen that he is Judge anywhere in Scripture - but is "SEIZED" and/or captured and thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire. In what you have written you have him immediately thrown into the Lake of Fire upon his death. You show no resurrection for this "white throne judgment" you have given him; you mention that this is "the final damnation" - yet you have shown no where in Scripture when all of this takes place. Furthermore, I have never seen where it is written in Scripture where anyone comes from the Lake of Fire to have a Great White Throne Judgment - isn't it the other way around :humm:

Now, let's take a look at Revelation 19:19-20

19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.


In closing, Kirthril.......it doesn't get any clearer than that. The Beast - aka: Antichrist has assembled his armies along with the kings of the Earth to make war with Christ as He ascends from Heaven. The AC is seized at that point, and thrown ALIVE into the lake of fire - this means he has a physical body as this is NOT a spiritual army that has gathered together with him and the kings of the earth to wage war with Christ. These folk are alive in very physical bodies at His Coming - and if you'll take the time to read Matthew 25:31-46 you will see where the Sheep & Goats Judgment commences; the wicked are subsequently thrown into Hades to await the 2nd Resurrection at the GWTJ and then to their ultimate demise which is the Lake of Fire. Those Righteous who are alive at His Coming - or on His right side are allowed into the Millennial Kingdom and reign with Him for 1,000 years.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:47 pm

Unfortunately I had a nice long reply, but I accidentally closed IE, and I don't want to retype it all, so I will summarize what I remember :(

1. You do not seem to take dual fulfillments into account even though the AC repeats the actions of many who came before him

2. Prophecy scholars from which we have all learned from use these nicknames for the AC: King of tyre, Pharaoh of Egypt, King of Babylon, The Assyrian, King of the North. How can they ascribe these names to the AC if they did not think these prophecies also correlate to the future AC?

3. Looking at Ezekiel's prophecy of the king of tyre look at the part you did NOT bolden:
you have said, ‘I am a god - is this not a action of the AC?
I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas’- Is this not where Daniel says the AC establishes his tents?
Although you make your heart like the heart of God- Does not the AC elevate himself to the level of, and even above God?
Behold, you are wiser than Daniel; There is no secret that is a match for you- is not the AC a master of Deceit?
You have acquired riches for yourself And have acquired gold and silver for your treasuries- Does the AC not divide spoil? Does he not take gold and silver to honor his god of war?
In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries- Does not the AC do this with the AoS and AoD?
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you- And finally is this not how the AC and his armies will die?

4. Clearly the descriptions and actions of the AC match this "King of tyre", such then that prophecy scholars have labled this a dual fulfillement to be repeated by the AC. On a further note, this could be a AC prophecy only due to the fact that Tyre is not located "in the heart of the seas". Ancient Tyre is not located between two bodies of water, whereas the AC will put himself between the Mediterranean and the Dead seas.

5. Same goes for the King of Babylon. Ask yourself: When did ancient babylon terrorize the nations of the world? Trample down the nations? Make the earth a wilderness? Make cities desolate? War against itself and bring itself to ruin?

6. The prophecies of this Babylon do not match ancient babylons existence. The assyrians brought down Babylon. Babylon only consisted of Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, southern turkey and was only the 2nd major empire, hardly large enough to trample down the nations and make the earth a wilderness. In fact it has been successive empires who have trampled on Babylon and made Babylon a wilderness, and it still is desolate.

7. However the AC and his empire do match this. His empire terrorizes the nations. His empire makes cities desolate. Makes the earth a wilderness (as much of the worlds population will die). The AC empire will even fight amongst itself for a time.

8. I take into account the possibilities that scripture we may think was totally fulfilled in ancient times, will happen again the same way, as well as hints that what we may think already happened, has actually not yet happened given circumstances.

9. I do see satan described, but also a man along with him.

10. You make my "white throne judgment" comment more complicated than it is. His final judgment (what others will have to wait till the end of the millennium for) happens while he is still alive. No resurrection. His fate will be sealed the moment he is captured and put to death. He is sentenced right then and there, he will not go to hades with like all other unbelieving dead. Thus that is his "White throne judgment". Thus he is sentenced to the lake of fire while being alive. Everyone else in history must wait in death before being judged to the lake. And yes I know he has a physical body, but his body will remain on earth, its his soul that goes to the lake. When I say WTJ I don't mean it in a literal sense, that they are going to roll the carpet out for the guy...

11. Ask yourself another question. What happens to all the bodies after Armageddon? All the weapons of war littering the middle east? Must there not be a clean up? Must there not be a mass burial and where? And won't it not take years to undertake seeing as how it is the largest battle in human history and the world population has been depleted? Ezekiel 38/39 will tell you the answer, because you wont find the answer in Revelation. This, yet another clue that the AC is Gog, and Ezekiel 38/39 is the quick old testament version of the war campaign of the AC that leaves out the details that Daniel and Revelation Describe.
................

In closing this rehash, let me simply say, the AC will die a violent death "in the heart of the seas" where "no one will help him". But before he dies, he will be judged by God, sentenced to the lake of fire while alive. His body will remain unburied in a mass grave, that blocks the path of travelers so all can gaze upon what happens to those that defy God. There is only ever one mass grave mentioned in prophetical end times for massive invading armies. Separating Revelation from Ezekiel would require 2.
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:41 am

Hi Kirthril,

Just want to touch base with a couple of things you wrote here:

kirthril wrote:1. You do not seem to take dual fulfillments into account even though the AC repeats the actions of many who came before him


Oh, I most certainly do. Where you are making a huge mistake is making the person(s) of ancient times out to be the same person of the future - but more on this later.

kirthril wrote:4. Clearly the descriptions and actions of the AC match this "King of tyre", such then that prophecy scholars have labled this a dual fulfillement to be repeated by the AC.


I would have to agree - but again, the King of Tyre is NOT the coming Antichrist. But you're getting warmer as far as interpretation :mrgreen:

kirthril wrote:5. Same goes for the King of Babylon. Ask yourself: When did ancient babylon terrorize the nations of the world? Trample down the nations? Make the earth a wilderness? Make cities desolate? War against itself and bring itself to ruin?


Again, I agree. Where you have made your mistake is mentioning that because the Kings of Babylon and Tyre have done things that the coming Antichrist will do - you provide the same Scripture as if it is the AC himself doing those things at that time. Although the "likeness" is there these are all very different events at very different times. The coming Antichrist will have a very different time, and season, as well as death. What you have mentioned is just like saying the coming Antichrist is Antiochus Epiphanes who also caused an Abomination of Desolation - yet they are two very different people, at two very different times.

Now let's take a look at what you have wrote about the Great White Throne Judgment - (GWTJ):

kirthril wrote:10. You make my "white throne judgment" comment more complicated than it is. His final judgment (what others will have to wait till the end of the millennium for) happens while he is still alive. No resurrection. His fate will be sealed the moment he is captured and put to death. He is sentenced right then and there, he will not go to hades with like all other unbelieving dead. Thus that is his "White throne judgment". Thus he is sentenced to the lake of fire while being alive. Everyone else in history must wait in death before being judged to the lake. And yes I know he has a physical body, but his body will remain on earth, its his soul that goes to the lake. When I say WTJ I don't mean it in a literal sense, that they are going to roll the carpet out for the guy...


Kirthril, actually it is you who is making the Great White Throne Judgment more complicated than what it is. First you have modified it and called it "white throne judgment" - I have no idea why you have changed it, and I hope it's not to fit your view. Nevertheless, everything that you wrote in your aforementioned statement is pure SPECULATION - and none of it can be supported with Scripture. The coming Antichrist will have no judgment whatsoever; there is no evidence that his physical body is to remain on earth after he has been captured or seized while in his physical body and cast ALIVE into the Lake of Fire - and finally the Great White Throne Judgment is very literal - he just isn't listed as being a part of it.

In closing, the evidence to show that the AC and Gog are one and the same is simply not there. They have two very different missions; two very different ways that they will be judged; and two very different ways that they will die, according to what is written in Scripture. We make mistakes in our interpretation of Scripture when we "read into" it; make assumptions; and further breath life into a certain End Time Eschatology because we "feel" a certain way about it, and very, very sadly it often turns out to be just flat out erroneous and false.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:24 am

Kirthril, actually it is you who is making the Great White Throne Judgment more complicated than what it is. First you have modified it and called it "white throne judgment" - I have no idea why you have changed it, and I hope it's not to fit your view.

No modification, simple mistake of leaving out the "great". I label it so because that is exactly what it is. Every single unbelieving dead will be judged right? That takes place at the GWTJ. All must be judged, including the AC. But he will not reside in death like everyone else to wait judgement. Thus "his version" of the GWTJ takes place at his moment of capture. Judged and sentenced not after he dies, but before. I don't know how better to explain it. You are getting too caught up in my mentioning of "GWTJ", it is simply his final judgment which is what all unbelievers will face later on.
...............
You say I have no evidence of Gog/AC being the same, but you did not mention my final statement. Who cleans up after Armageddon? Where are they buried? How long does it take? And where in the bible would such a massive task be located? If the magog war is large enough to warrant burial mention for the armies and the great task of cleanup, then sure enough the war of Armageddon, being larger, if different, warrants a mention as well? Birds don't eat bones ya know.
................
Other than that, agreements, disagreements, :itsallgood: I enjoy this, debating, seeing other views etc, because I most certainly am too shy or non-confrontational if you will IRL. Being able to debate like this is probably preparing me for the day when I will have no choice but to explain things to those who don't know.

Even if I am wrong, or you are wrong, or.... we are both wrong :bag: we will all be on the same page as things come into alignment. Until then :armor:
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:45 am

kirthril wrote:No modification, simple mistake of leaving out the "great". I label it so because that is exactly what it is. Every single unbelieving dead will be judged right? That takes place at the GWTJ. All must be judged, including the AC. But he will not reside in death like everyone else to wait judgement. Thus "his version" of the GWTJ takes place at his moment of capture. Judged and sentenced not after he dies, but before. I don't know how better to explain it.You are getting too caught up in my mentioning of "GWTJ", it is simply his final judgment which is what all unbelievers will face later on.


Hi Kirthril,

In your aforementioned comment, I have embolden your comment "I don't know how better to explain it." My response to that is, I thank you for your candor - perhaps we should let Scripture "Explain It".

As I've mentioned before, Scripture provides absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the coming Antichrist is ever to have a judgment at the Great White Throne - so therefore, it would be improper for you to "add to" this Book. You are correct when you state that: "All must be judged". However, the coming Antichrist doesn't have a "specific" version of the GWTJ, as you have attempted to incorporate into the book of Revelation - but the Judgment of God Himself who has sentenced him to the ultimate Judgment, which is the Lake of Fire upon HIs Return. Scripture states that the coming Antichrist is "seized" and cast alive into the Lake of Fire upon the Return of Christ - therefore he has been Judged, and a GWTJ is not necessary - at least for him. Revelation 19:20 provides information that the coming Antichrist has received Divine Judgment through the Sovereignty of God - meaning that no books are mentioned as being opened; the Book of Life isn't necessary to see if his name is recorded there; and nothing needs to be discovered or revealed by way of his deeds.

kirthril wrote:You say I have no evidence of Gog/AC being the same, but you did not mention my final statement. Who cleans up after Armageddon? Where are they buried? How long does it take? And where in the bible would such a massive task be located? If the magog war is large enough to warrant burial mention for the armies and the great task of cleanup, then sure enough the war of Armageddon, being larger, if different, warrants a mention as well? Birds don't eat bones ya know.


Kirthril, I made no comment on your last statement because I've already mentioned that Gog and the coming Antichrist are two very different people. Gog's war is different than the war of the Antichrist - Scripture is quite clear on that. The war that Gog leads can be found in Ezekiel 39:11-12

Ezekiel 39:11-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11) “On that day I will give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off those who would pass by. So they will bury Gog there with all his horde, and they will call it the valley of Hamon-gog. 12) For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.


The aforementioned passage of Scripture should answer your question. Gog, and his army is BURRIED. It takes the house of Israel 7 months to bury them all. It doesn't get any clearer than that. This is very much in contrast to the coming Antichrist - who is captured or seized ALIVE; and his armies are destroyed at Armageddon:

Revelation 19:19-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


In closing, the Battle of Armageddon includes the armies of the Antichrist and the kings of the Entire World. This is in contrast to the Gog war mentioned in Ezekiel 39 - which is Gog's army and ONLY listed as coming from the "remotest parts of the north" of Israel. Gog and his army is further described as being buried. This is all prior to the Return of Christ. The place where the Antichrist has assembled his armies can be found here:

Revelation 16:12-16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12) The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. 13) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; 14) for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. 15) (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) 16) And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.


What I have mentioned should clearly show the differences between Gog and the coming Antichrist. You have made the comment about the birds not eating bones, as if these two wars are one and the same - well although Scripture provides no information as to the burial of those at the Battle of Armageddon - it most certainly describes a burial in the Gog war to include Gog himself. Not to mention, no birds or fowls of the air are mentioned at Gog's war, nor is it at the Return of Christ, and there are two very different locations in which these wars occur. One being named as Har-Magedon or Armageddon and the other being the valley of "Hammon-gog".

The timing of the Gog war is where I believe that most get confused.........

However, in viewing all of this, I don't see how anyone can unite Gog and the coming Antichrist as being one and the same.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Exit40 on Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:19 am

Mr Baldy wrote:The timing of the Gog war is where I believe that most get confused.........

However, in viewing all of this, I don't see how anyone can unite Gog and the coming Antichrist as being one and the same.


I think I have an answer for that confusion. Gog is not only a man living at a time, it is a title for one who comes against Israel in a manner so as to destroy her and overcome the Lord. Something we know is impossible, but it seems is repeated every so often, according to Scripture. Many titles are given this man, such as the Assyrian, but the characteristics of the man are essential the same. So I suggest the title Gog in reference to Gog and Magog is just that, as we appear to have one battle occurring at the end of this age, and another at the end of the Millennium. There are differences in the battles, and the outcomes for Gog and Antichrist, another title. But THE Antichrist is the ultimate expression for the title Gog, and his end is at Armageddon. The timing of these battles and what happens to the 'titled man' appear to be different, as the Ezekiel Gog is killed and buried, but the possibility exists he is cast from the grave for kings and others to gawk at, per Isaiah 14. The final Gog however is captured alive and thrown in the lake of Fire. And yes, he is already judged, I believe both are as they are the ultimate antichrist expression of man, possibly inhabited by satan or another high ranking fallen angel, possibly his title is the beast. I haven't sorted this out yet, it's slow coming to me, but Scripture should help us determine what happens to each one, if we get into the details of the events.

God Bless

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:13 pm

The common thread in the depiction of Gog and the AC is not the man, it is something else. In Isa 14 a man is described, who is buried in a mass grave as Gog will be, with characteristics that can only be associated with Satan. In Ezek 28 a man is described, who is consumed by fire as the AC will be, with characteristics that also can only be associated with Satan. When Gog-Magog is mentioned at the end of the millennium, the only named entity is Satan.

Satan will give his power and authority to the AC, there will be an intimate relationship between a man and a fallen angel. The AC is also described as the beast that comes from the Abyss, the place of fallen angels and demons. The beast is described as one who once was, and now is not, but will be an 8th king in the future. This is not the description of a man, a man does not come back nor does he come from the Abyss, but a fallen angel can come from the Abyss and again join with a man.

How many times have men been taken over by the one from the Abyss? Who are the 7 kings to whom the AC/beast belongs, those who preceded him? The dragon, Satan, has 7 heads, the beast has 7 heads, suggesting perhaps that the beast is associated with Satan and has existed before. The man has not existed before, the man is not the same, but the evil one taking over a man can occur more than once, the evil one is the same entity.

The common entity is not the man it is the evil one, it is a fallen angel, it is Satan. Men can die different deaths, they can be killed and buried in a mass grave or consumed by fire, but the fallen angel lives on, to later take over another man.

Gog-Magog in Ezek and Gog-Magog in Rev are clearly 2 different events but with 1 similarity, Satan. Armageddon and Gog-Magog in Rev are clearly 2 different events, with Satan as the similarity. Gog-Magog in Ezek and armageddon are clearly 2 different events, but from Isa 14 and Ezek 28 Satan is the driving entity in both events.

At Gog-Magog the armies are killed and buried in a mass grave, while at armageddon, according to Zech 14 and Isa 29 the armies will be dissolved, their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet' and they 'will become like fine dust', like chaff. The armies at armageddon are not described as being buried likely because no bodies remain. Just one of many differences between Gog-Magog and armageddon.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:48 am

Hi 1WW. While the progression of battles that occur in the end times is not precisely clear, there is evidently a progression nevertheless. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Micah, all write of battles or conflicts which Israel is empowered to win or lose, some of which the Lord Himself resolves, all apparently in the sequence of end times battles, which Revelations condenses into one narrative. It would be something akin to saying World War Two was a great conflagration, and then describe the battles of the Pacific, the Atlantic, or Europe, or Africa, in the order in which they were fought. We can talk about seven heads and the meanings over time, I wonder if the end times would have seven heads of the antichrist corporate also, which might be the purpose of the different Prophets descriptions of apparently separate but related battles of the larger picture ?


We keep going over this concept of separate battles, and get nowhere, when Scripture describes many different aspects of the larger picture. That is what I am seeing anyway. And I believe islam is the crux of all these battles as they are the controlling force in the areas the battles take place in, in our time. Who knows what it will be in the distant future, but if the Millennium is to begin in the near future, islam is the issue now that will end this age.

Can we agree on that ? If we can maybe we can start to form an order of battle, if you will. If we can't we will just continue to butt heads and get nowhere. We seem to be in agreement fallen angels are the spiritual force behind conflicts surrounding Israel over time, seducing and empowering different men from different empires. Let's see if we can build on that going from there.

God Bless You

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:25 pm

In your aforementioned comment, I have embolden your comment "I don't know how better to explain it." My response to that is, I thank you for your candor - perhaps we should let Scripture "Explain It".
That's not what I meant. I meant I have no easier way to explain to you why I used GWTJ in this context. Lemme try another way. My mention of GWTJ is a METAPHOR to point out that the AC's judgment is what all unbelievers will go through eventually. METAPHOR. Not saying that this is when the GWTJ happens, that books are opened, or that it will be exquisite red carpet.

The point is, is that the AC will be judged, as all must. He must also, as the bible states all must do, bow before Christ and acknowledge he is Lord. So after his capture, he will be brought before Christ, kneel, acknowledge, judged, sentenced to the lake. This is what happens at the very end during the GWTJ, thus why I used that language here as well. Metaphor to point out the similarities. Once again, you took it too far to mean the wrong thing.

To put it another way, the Judgment of the AC will be a pre-courser to the GWTJ. Like I said, I don't know if I can explain that any easier. Metaphor.

Kirthril, I made no comment on your last statement because I've already mentioned that Gog and the coming Antichrist are two very different people. Gog's war is different than the war of the Antichrist - Scripture is quite clear on that. The war that Gog leads can be found in Ezekiel 39:11-12

I understand where the War of Magog is. I have also pointed out that the Magog alliance consists of the same group of nations under the AC alliance mentioned by both John (Rev 13, 17) and Daniel 7, 8, 11. I have shown/explained this in other threads as well.

In closing, the Battle of Armageddon includes the armies of the Antichrist and the kings of the Entire World. This is in contrast to the Gog war mentioned in Ezekiel 39 - which is Gog's army and ONLY listed as coming from the "remotest parts of the north" of Israel.

I agree that the whole world will be sending its armies to the middle east at the very end as mentioned in Daniel 11 as Armageddon. But they wont be there in allegiance to the AC. Daniel makes it clear the world will be against the AC. My point is that the Magog war, Eze 38 IS the tribulational 3.5yr war and that Eze 39 is Armageddon. Also Gog's army ONLY coming from the north? I didn't know Iran, Libya, Sudan, Algeria, Tunisia were north of Israel. BTW, these same nations that are part of the AC alliance...

Not to mention, no birds or fowls of the air are mentioned at Gog's war, nor is it at the Return of Christ,

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Ezekiel 39:
4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals
17 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares the Sovereign Lord.

and there are two very different locations in which these wars occur. One being named as Har-Magedon or Armageddon and the other being the valley of "Hammon-gog".

Wrong. Har-megiddo is a valley in which a large chunk of the AC's forces will be located, but nowhere near all of it. But the war will consume the entire middle east. All over the old testament are clues that Jesus leads the armies of heaven not just to fight in Jordan and Israel, but also in Egypt, Lebanon, Lydia (turkey), Northern Arabia, Assyria (Syria/Iraq). So the "Battle of Armgeddon" is just one local in a much larger war that Christ will wage.
"Hammon-gog" is not the location of a war or battle, but simply the place of burial. The magog war is simply described as being upon the mountains of Israel.

Also, look at a geographical look at where Hammon-gog is. You can see it on Google earth. The bible tells us where it is. It blocks the way of travelers on the road past the Dead Sea, forcing them to go around the east side. If hammon-gog is the local of the "magog war" as you state...

just look at how far deep into Israel they penetrate. This valley is literally next to Jerusalem. This actually makes my argument look more legit as the prevailing theory among Christians of the Magog war, is that they are obliterated before they even penetrate Israel, only coming to its mountains. So the question is, if Magog is defeated on the outskirts of the nation of Israel, why drag all them bodies into the heart of the holy land? Makes no sense, unless Magog/Armageddon, Gog/AC are the same.
..............

Also just take a look at the alliance. Notice any nations missing in Eze 38/39? Egypt. I have always wondered why Egypt is left out of Gog/magog. Seems weird since sudan/Cush, Libya, Put (Algeria/Tunisia) would have to cross it. Why would Egypt allow armies to cross over it? If this is a Islamic invasion why is Egypt not involved.

Well the answer is there. Egypt has been removed as a military power. But Egypt is only removed once the AC defeats it, Daniel 11, Isaiah 19. Also those nations must cross the Nile River. How will they? God will dry up the nile, just like he dries up the Euphrates. But when does the nile dry up thus allowing for these armies to cross over? Isaiah 19 says, during the time that Egypt is at war with the AC and loses.

The circumstance on Egypt is yet another thing I reason to conclude the war of Magog is not pre-tribulational. Egypt is taken out of the way first. There is no way secular Egypt will allow Islamic armies to pass over it to attack its ally Israel. But if Egypt has been taken out... Then no one will resist. This is another reason I believe the AC is Gog and the War begins shortly after the defeat of Egypt.
...................

Magog alliance:
Put - Algeria/Tunisia
Libya
Cush/Ethiopia - Sudan
Persia - Iran
Togarmah- Turkey
Tubal - Turkey
Gomer - Turkey
Magog -Turkey
Many nations with you- other unnamed ones

Daniel 8 AC kingdom:
One of the 4 split kingdoms of Greece
Daniel 11 AC kingdom: Kingdom of the north - Seleucid Kingdom

Seleucid kingdom:
Turkey Pakistan
Iran Afghanistan
Lebanon Jordan
Syria Palestine/west bank
Iraq

Daniel 7 empire of AC:
10 horns different from the lion (Babylon), Bear (Persia), Leopard (Greece)

Revelation 13 AC kingdom:
Mouth of lion - iraq
feet of bear - Iran
body of leopard - Turkey

Revelation 17 AC kingdom: 7 heads then an 8th. 5 fallen, 1 present, 1 to come for short while. Then an 8th from among the 7.
5 fallen - Egypt 1500yrs, Babylon 300yrs, Assyria 980yrs, Persia 400yrs, Greece 500yrs
1 present - Rome 1000 yrs
1 to come - Ottoman 460yrs

The 8th comes from amongst the 7. Not it comes from one or two or three, but from among them all. Consists of... is made up of... is born from... #8, the final, is made up of territories from all 7 combined. # 8 must have lands from:
Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome, Ottomans. And both the Magog alliance and the AC kingdom fit the description of #8. Both alliances hold territories from all previous 7.
................................

So read over all that carefully. The alliance of Magog, the Alliance of the AC kingdom, same nations, same lands, same countries, same people. Gog is their leader. The AC is their leader. Unless the middle eastern people are dumb enough to make the same mistake twice in a 7 yr period... they are one in the same.
...........

Last but not least, one is going to have a hard time explaining Magog being pre-trib when in Eze 38/39 God says he will make himself known to Israel and all nations. That Israel will finally know him. And his name will be profaned no longer. If magog is pre-trib, well... there is a whole lot of profaning left. If Israel finally knows their God after Magog, then why do they follow the AC? If they follow the AC, then they clearly don't know God. It would be like saying that Christians, who know God will follow the AC. If a "Christian" follows the AC thinking he is the messiah, then said "Christian" clearly does not know God.
................

I cannot look at the alliances and say they are two separate occurrences. There is no logistical way the nations of the middle east/north africa can have their entire militaries annihilated and then somehow build them back up 3.5-7yrs later to "try again". People do not reproduce that fast. Especially when "all the strong men" took part.
There is no way a Russian Magog can be obliterated by God (when he sends a fire on the land of Magog), and then build itself back up 3.5-7yrs later to become a powerful threat from the north to the AC. Russia took 30yrs to get back to military supremacy and not a single missile was fired from America, yet we are to believe that a Russian magog will recover annihilation from God in 3-7yrs to make threats at the AC from his north?... IDK...
..........

This is why i separate Putin/Russia from Magog. This is why i have Gog/AC as one. This is why i have the Magog war as the tribulational war.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:46 pm

If we can maybe we can start to form an order of battle, if you will.

Daniel 11, AC war vs Egypt #1 - draw
Isaiah 19, Egypt begins civil war period (those who eat from kings provisions will try to destroy him)
Daniel 11, AC war vs Egypt #2 - navies of the chittem (Greece, Italy, Cyprus) oppose, NATO now against the AC
Daniel 11, AC war vs Egypt #3- Egypt defeated and removed from equation
Isaiah 19, Egyptian civil war ends with AC take over, Nile river dries up. Egyptian oppression begins
Ezekiel 38, Magog invasion begins, with Egypt gone, north African armies can move unimpeded towards Israel
Daniel 11, AC establishes himself in the holy land
Daniel 11, Reports from east and north alarm him, he prepares for battle with armies coming against him
Isaiah 21, Mystery Babylon is destroyed by Elam/Iran
Revelation 17, Mystery Babylon is destroyed
Ezekiel 39, Armageddon commences
Revelation 17, Armageddon commences

My understanding of the battles. I have no clue however when Damascus is destroyed but i am leaning on it happening during the final 3.5yrs based on the fact that Isaiah states that even parts of Israel will be in desolation at that time.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Jan 04, 2016 3:45 pm

kirthril wrote:My understanding of the battles. I have no clue however when Damascus is destroyed but i am leaning on it happening during the final 3.5yrs based on the fact that Isaiah states that even parts of Israel will be in desolation at that time.


That's a good start Kirthril. I see a lot more in Jeremiah and some in Amos and Micah too. Regarding gog/magog in Israel, they are not limited to just the mountains.

Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39: Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.


The Valley of Jezreel is one such field, with access to roads to Jerusalem, so is the plain on the west of it from the choke point of Har Meggido, going down to the Med, as well as the southern portion of that plain going down to Tel Aviv and south from there. But that area will be approached form the south.

Reread Psalm 83, and check out the history of those descriptions and names provided there in stories form the OT. See any similarities of the future battles described in Ezekiel and Revelation ? Hard to miss unless you don't want to see them. As for the destruction of Damascus, I think that is going to happen as part of the fire on magog, as it will be under the control of Turkey and Iran at the time of the end. Read is Isaiah 17 how the fire approaches, and then overnight it is there, with the destruction of the surrounding areas also, most of literal modern day Syria, and Lebanon too, which is mentioned in other Scriptures. I can't remember off hand what the name of the valley is that starts right at or near the Temple Mount, and ends in the Dead sea, but this is where the blood runs to the height of a horses bridal.

I agree, the whole area is going to be a mess, ongoing conflicts right up to the end, no seven year period of rebuilding armies when the muslims say to the rest of the world, convert to islam and you will be safe. In other words, peace and safety. Then sudden destruction comes on them like a thief in the night, like the pains of a woman in child birth. All this sound familiar ? Does to me.

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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:39 pm

Well I didn't include Psalm 83 because it is very possible it has already happened. The series of wars from the 1940's-60's including the 6-day war, Yom Kippur war etc... those wars involved those exact nations of Psalm 83 and for the exact reasons given in 83.

The haggrites, mentioned in 83 are Egyptians. Egypt is to be been taken out by the AC, thus why no mention in the Magog invasion or as part of the militant AC alliance. The Egyptians under the AC will cry out to God for help. They will be utterly oppressed. So I can't imagine that Psalm 83 is in conjunction with Magog and Armageddon.

But at the same time I am torn because, Syria and Iraq are also neither mentioned as part of the Magog alliance, yet, because they are part of the empire, the people of these lands do come against Israel. So its possible even though Egypt is defeated, the AC could force them to war against Israel. So I left out Psalm 83 just to be safe.

Regarding gog/magog in Israel, they are not limited to just the mountains.

Yes, this is my understanding.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:05 pm

kirthril wrote:Last but not least, one is going to have a hard time explaining Magog being pre-trib when in Eze 38/39 God says he will make himself known to Israel and all nations.


HI Kirthril,

Your aforementioned statement will be the only thing that I comment on, as on another thread the issue of the timing of the Gog/Magog war is being discussed. Not to mention, I have seen so many flaws in the Islamic AC Paradigm that there is no way that I personally consider it to be a valid End Time option. It's just flat out wrong in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=71632

After listening to the youtube video in this particular link that Brett has provided, well all I can say is that there could possibly be a different view as to when the timing of the Gog/Magog war will happen - in that it may be one and the same as mentioned in Revelation 20. I will have to review the video (again), to include the study mentioned by J Paul Tanner to see if I have been incorrect in my views. If what this man of God has presented is indeed True - then the whole AC being Gog is irrelevant as well.

Here is the link that Brett provided: http://youtu.be/AzN4lUj2EOY

This link further provides information that the prophecies in Ezekiel "may not" be listed in chronological order.

It's really something to think about, study, and consider. This may also help to shed some light on additional erroneous teachings that have been presented over many, many years. I'm certainly not endorsing what J Paul Tanner has presented in this video, but as I was viewing it, it certainly caught my attention - and is definitely worthy of a good look, and cross examination.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:21 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
kirthril wrote:Last but not least, one is going to have a hard time explaining Magog being pre-trib when in Eze 38/39 God says he will make himself known to Israel and all nations.


HI Kirthril,

Your aforementioned statement will be the only thing that I comment on, as on another thread the issue of the timing of the Gog/Magog war is being discussed. Not to mention, I have seen so many flaws in the Islamic AC Paradigm that there is no way that I personally consider it to be a valid End Time option. It's just flat out wrong in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=71632

After listening to the youtube video in this particular link that Brett has provided, well all I can say is that there could possibly be a different view as to when the timing of the Gog/Magog war will happen - in that it may be one and the same as mentioned in Revelation 20. I will have to review the video (again), to include the study mentioned by J Paul Tanner to see if I have been incorrect in my views. If what this man of God has presented is indeed True - then the whole AC being Gog is irrelevant as well.

Here is the link that Brett provided: http://youtu.be/AzN4lUj2EOY

This link further provides information that the prophecies in Ezekiel "may not" be listed in chronological order.

It's really something to think about, study, and consider. This may also help to shed some light on additional erroneous teachings that have been presented over many, many years. I'm certainly not endorsing what J Paul Tanner has presented in this video, but as I was viewing it, it certainly caught my attention - and is definitely worthy of a good look, and cross examination.


Thanks, I will take a look.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Exit40 on Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:17 am

I thought perhaps the PS 83 battle had already occurred too, possibly, until I checked out the actual circumstance of what is described there.

Psa 83:13-15 O my God, make them like a wheel; as the stubble before the wind.
As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire;
So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm.


Here is a comparison to Ezekiel 38...

Eze 38:22
And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


Here is one example of the connection I see. An overflowing rain is what did this...

Psa 83:10 Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth.

The armies were in a ravine of some type and the flash flood buried them in the mud, game over, battle won without even an engagement. There are more examples, like make them like a wheel, as stubble before the wind, as the enemy flees out of Irael. Actually every one of the conflagrations in the Psalms quote has a story to it in the to past, and can be found in the OT and referenced to Ezekiel and the gog wars. Please take some time to look them up, as the effect is so much greater than me just telling you about them. They are all the Lord working to protect Israel and establish her in the land. I hope the feel the impact I did when reading about this. It gives insight into the difference elements of just a few verses and the detail that can be seen in comparison, and tells a fantastic story of the Lord and His Love for Israel.

Oh, Syria is mentioned as a people in Ps 83, they will be there. The people of Gaza can be found there. As well as the people of Sinai and other parts of Egypt.

God Bless You

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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:10 pm

David, i think we agree on several points, i do agree that there will be an Islamic paradigm, and that the destruction of Damascus is connected to and leads into Gog-magog, and involve muslim nations. But what i see from scripture is that these are the initial events that set the stage for a much greater and all encompassing event 7 years later, a events that are not muslim based but demonic and fallen angel based, the epic battle in which God is vindicated against all His foes.

I have attempted to demonstrate that although there are similarities between Gog-Magog and armageddon, there are also differences that the scripture plainly points out, differences that are significant. There is a precedent for this in prophetic scripture, describing what could be a singular event in several passages only to include differences that cannot be ignored.

The coming of Messiah from an OT perspective did appear to be a singular event which in reality was demonstrated to be 2 separate events. The OT scholars should have known the time of their visitation, but they missed the differences in the scriptures depiction of the conquering king and the suffering servant, the differences in the description of the coming Messiah would point to 2 different events.

Although there are similarities between Gog and the AC, Gog-Magog and armageddon, the differences point to 2 different individuals involved in 2 different events at 2 different times, and the precedent for such a presentation in prophetic scripture has already been set in 2 different comings of the Messiah.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:33 pm

Mr B, i have suggested an alternate timeline to what is discussed in the video in the other thread about Gog-Magog. This gentleman makes many assumptions in his presentation that i would disagree with. Profaning God's name does not refer to saying bad things about God as Ezek 36:20 clearly points out. Israel knowing God is the Lord does not mean that they will never fall away, see the golden calf episode. Israel does not dwell in walled villages with gates and bars as in the centuries past, there is a wall on the border of the nation, not around the cities. Israel does dwell in a security guaranteed by nuclear weapons, which the surrounding Islamic nations do not currently have.

As Israel does rebuild the temple and re-institute the OT sacrificial system prior to the AOD, it would appear that Israel does return to the Lord on an OT basis. The covenant that is strengthened for 7 years would be consistent with the Old Covenant, which was to be read and restated before the people every 7 years according to Moses. The act of the AC setting himself up as god in a place called 'God's temple' would suggest that the temple does indeed have some OT type significance.

After Gog, God regathers all Israel to the land and He also rebukes Israel for their unfaithfulness to him when they lived in safety in the land prior to Gog, apparently apart from God.( Ezek 39:26) This description of Israel would be inconsistent with the end of the millenium when Israel would have been fully regathered at the beginning of the miilenium and Jesus would have ruled in their midst for 1,000 years in Jerusalem. There is no suggestion in scripture that Israel would be unfaithful to Jesus during the 1,000 years while He was in their midst nor that they would have to leave the land and again be regathered at the end of the millenium.

Based on the condition of Israel before and after Gog-Magog in Ezek 38-39, Gog- Magog in Ezek and Gog-magog in Rev are inconsistent with each other and are then 2 separate events. Gog-Magog in Ezek would be pre-AOD, and as 7 years of weapons burning follow Gog, most likely Gog occurs at the beginning or just prior to the 70th week. Raising the possibility of....any time now....
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Exit40 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:11 pm

1whowaits wrote:
Based on the condition of Israel before and after Gog-Magog in Ezek 38-39, Gog- Magog in Ezek and Gog-magog in Rev are inconsistent with each other and are then 2 separate events. Gog-Magog in Ezek would be pre-AOD, and as 7 years of weapons burning follow Gog, most likely Gog occurs at the beginning or just prior to the 70th week. Raising the possibility of....any time now....


Hi 1WW. I believe it is error to see the seven years of burning weapons as the 70th week, but rather perhaps a ritual cleansing of the land according to traditional Jewish Law. I am not well versed enough to converse on that, but the reason that occurs is the Lord is in fact in the land and ruling post Eze 39. If we read closely in chapter 38 we can see it is about an invasion, perhaps having to do with economic conditions, suggesting here the flow of gas and oil to the rest of the region, and the general good conditions of Israels economics. Are battle s fought yet in Chapter 38 ? doesn't appear to be in my understanding. God does get angry at the end of the chapter, but Chapter 39 may suggest they gog forces are leaving and returning to their own lands, as they are called back, being caused by God to come up from the north parts, ascending, Strongs H5927, alah, and beginning the destruction of the magog forces. The sequence of battles that appear to happen are not described here, but probably are in other Scriptures. Nor is the evident desolations of the Jews during any time period, there there must be assumed there is one, as other Scriptures also state that, particularly from the AoD on. Nevertheless, at the end of the wiping out of Israels enemies God says essentially He punished the Jews for their iniquity during this time period, according to the Law which is elaborated on in other scripture which to date no one has figured out that time period, after which God has mercy on His people, and be jealous for His Holy Name, which I believe to be Jesus Christ. So at this point I also believe Israel recognizes Jesus as Messiah, as the Lord says He will not come until they call His Holy Name, Jesus, and saves them, all Israel. And they know the Lord, Jesus, as He has poured out His Spirit on them.

Eze 39:7-8So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Eze 39:22-24 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

Eze 39:29
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.


I don't believe it possible for any nation/s including Israel to rebuild a many forces as Ezekiel seems to present are involved in seven years, much less what appears to actually be three and a half years. Ezekiel 38-39 still appear to me to be the same sequence of events, horrible as they are culminating with All Israel saved, gathered, and the Lord's Spirit poured out on them. You have presented some Scripture to state a seven year period, but only from Ezekiel that I can recall. What others do you have which state this period is a rebuilding of this entire area, considering the fire on the coast lands and magog also. Considering also that this happens with the heathen, only once.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

They see the Judgement, God's Glory is set among them, and here I suspect He is in Jerusalem living in the land with His people.

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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:06 pm

David, i believe a parallel account of Gog would be Joel 2. In this passage a northern army comes against Israel and is driven back and killed by God, their 'stench' rises. Israel turns to the Lord and the Lord restores them and blesses them. And He pours out His spirit on them 'Before' the coming of the great and dreadful DOTL.

Israel accepts Jesus when all nations gather to Jerusalem and Israel looks upon the 'One who was pierced' and mourns, as Zech 12 describes. In order for Israel to look upon Jesus He would have to be visible, as Matt 24 describes when He is in the clouds and the nations mourn at the DOTL, when the sun and moon are darkened, aka the great and terrible day of Joel 3.

But Joel 2 is describing a return of Israel when attacked by a northern army prior to the great and terrible day. This then would be consistent with Gog-Magog, an event prior to armageddon and the great and terrible day, when Israel knows God is the Lord and God pours out His spirit on them. Again Joel 2 states that this occurs before the great and terrible day, which is later described in Joel 3.

So the weapons burning for 7 years would occur before the great and terrible day, the day of armageddon and Christ's return. As a 7 year period is mentioned of weapons burning from Gog, the 7 year period of burning would likely end prior to armageddon as after armageddon it appears that weapons are not burned but turned into farming implements (plowshares). Also during the 7 years of the 70th week Israel is only in the land for the first 3.5 years, which Ezek covers by indicating that it is 'those who live in the towns of Israel' that will burn the weapons, which would not necessarily be the Israelis themselves if they have left the land.

Another possible parallel account of Gog-Magog is the first trumpet of Rev., the description of which is very similar to the judgement poured out at Gog-magog in Ezek. What then occurs to the nations is not a 1 time event, it is disaster after disaster, after which Satan is cast down to earth and it gets even worse, as described in the last 3 trumpets, aka the 3 woes. After Gog Israel is blessed for a time while the rest of the world descends into darkness, they will see the punishment that God inflicts and the hand that He lays upon them.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:52 am

[quote="1whowaits"]David, i believe a parallel account of Gog would be Joel 2. In this passage a northern army comes against Israel and is driven back and killed by God, their 'stench' rises. Israel turns to the Lord and the Lord restores them and blesses them. And He pours out His spirit on them 'Before' the coming of the great and dreadful DOTL.

1WW, you see the Book of Joel as linear, I see it as being about the same time period, written from different perspectives as to what is happening in Israel. And I believe this is about the last three and a half years of this age. You say the Lord pours out His Spirit on before the coming DOTL. But there is apparently another three and a half years, or is it seven, after He does this in your narrative. I cannot accept this as factual, as I believe once God has poured out His Spirit there is no going back, you are His from then on. I also see in Joel God asking the Jews to accept Him, and His Son by implication, the Lord, when they are surrounded and in dire straits. They call an assembly, a convocation, and appear to accept Him, the Lord Jesus, at that time. Then the Lord roars form Zion, His army goes before Him, and these are not human, with the Jews assisting as if they are David himself. Keep in mind the text does not say 'all' nations, just nations, and those are described in other Scripture to be muslim nations surrounding Israel today. I don't believe there are two DOTL days within seven years, as this is what I believe you are saying. I don't see a reference to a seven year period in Joel at all. I don't see a reference to the Jews leaving the land, but I do believe some have fled, at least from Judaha, aka the West Bank, according to other Scriptures. I see the magog forces in the land making it and the remaining people desolate for a time, then a complete invasion covering the land like a cloud and surrounding Jerusalem.

We are repeating our narratives again and getting no where. Unless you see something else I am saying as a possibility I suggest we leave this alone, until an event in our time happens and gives us some better insight.

God Bless you

David
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:50 am

1whowaits wrote:After Gog, God regathers all Israel to the land and He also rebukes Israel for their unfaithfulness to him when they lived in safety in the land prior to Gog, apparently apart from God.( Ezek 39:26) This description of Israel would be inconsistent with the end of the millenium when Israel would have been fully regathered at the beginning of the miilenium and Jesus would have ruled in their midst for 1,000 years in Jerusalem. There is no suggestion in scripture that Israel would be unfaithful to Jesus during the 1,000 years while He was in their midst nor that they would have to leave the land and again be regathered at the end of the millenium.


1whowaits wrote:Based on the condition of Israel before and after Gog-Magog in Ezek 38-39, Gog- Magog in Ezek and Gog-magog in Rev are inconsistent with each other and are then 2 separate events. Gog-Magog in Ezek would be pre-AOD, and as 7 years of weapons burning follow Gog, most likely Gog occurs at the beginning or just prior to the 70th week. Raising the possibility of....any time now....


Hi 1whowaits,

After viewing the video, and the studies presented therein, I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. You are clearly viewing this from a dispensationalist premillennial point of view - and your point of view about the condition of Israel and other points of view you have made concerning the AOD and the burning of the weapons are pure speculation.

You must remember that AFTER the 1,000 years are up Satan has been let loose to deceive the Nations for a "little season" Scripture provides no time period for this "little season" - nor does it specify a time limit after the Great White Throne Judgment until the Eternal State.

I highly suggest anyone reading this thread please read the comments made by J. Paul Tanner - "Rethinking Ezekiel's Invasion by Gog" and the article written by Ralph H Alexander - "A Fresh Look at Ezekiel 38 and 39". If one were to just Google both of these Authors and the titles of their perspective articles, I'm sure that in reading what has been presented in these arguments, it will at the very least cause you to "rethink" what many Scholars have presented over the years.

In closing, I am convinced that the Ezekiel 38 & 39 Gog/Magog war is one and the same as the Gog/Magog war mentioned in Revelation 20. A careful examination of comparative Scripture, as it ALL must work in harmony is what has led me personally to this conclusion.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:07 pm

I watched the video. I had seen this before a long time ago but didn't really dwell on it much back then. Now watching it again I will say this:

1. The author of this video says that it is very possible that Ezekiel 38/39 are a dual prophecy, occurring both at Armageddon and at the end of the 1000 years. This is the same view that I hold.

2. The author of this video uses many of the same reasons I listed above to rule out a pre-trib occurrence.

3. The author of this video believes that this war of Magog is a instantaneous battle. And that's where I differ. I believe it is a process, a long war beginning in 38 and ending in 39. 39 being the final conclusion of Armageddon.

4. I also believe in all the circumstances for the end of 1000yr Magog war.

In other words, I believe in a near-far fulfillment. Dual fulfillment. My biggest difference between the two wars is that at the end of the 1000yrs, the Magog armies come from "the four corners of the earth" and no specific nations mentioned, so the whole rebellious earth. The Ezekiel nations are, as I have pointed out, are also part of the Anti-Christ coalition. This is why I believe the Ezekiel Magog is the Anti-Christ invasion which ends in Armageddon. But it will repeat, this time involving the whole rebellious earth at the end of the 1000 yrs. Events and wars repeat, there is no reason to think that Magog won't. I guarantee you there will be a "AC" like figure at the end of the 1000 yrs as well. Humans tend to gather around a single authority to lead them. Satan always works ingonito, so as the video mentions, don't be surprised that satan uses someone to rally the nations against Jesus.

So yea. simply put I believe in dual fulfillment.
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:11 pm

Mr B, actually the theory of Gog-magog in Ezek and Gog in Rev being the same battle makes little sense. After Gog -Magog God regathers all of Israel back to the land and pours out His spirit on them. Israel is regathered at the beginning of the 1,000 years and there is not even the slightest suggestion they have to leave the land after that point. Zech 14 indicates that Jesus rules from Jerusalem, could Jesus not protect them? Also at armageddon, according to Zech 12, Israel accepts Jesus and has a Spirit of grace poured out on them. Will they need additional spirit at the end of the 1,000 years? Will they reject Jesus while He dwells in their midst and they see Him every day?

After Gog God says that Israel was unfaithful to Him prior to Gog-Magog. Where is that found during the millenium? Israel was unfaithful to Jesus while He ruled in Jerusalem? How long would Jesus permit that?

Rev states that Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years the unrighteous dead are raised. The GWTJ is described as occurring after the 1,000 years as if it occurs immediately after, there is no indication of a delay. When Peter describes the DOTL in 2 Peter he states the day comes like a thief, a reference to Jesus coming like a thief at armageddon, and includes the new heaven and earth, which occurs at the time of GWTJ in Rev. And he alludes to the DOTL being 1,000 years.

Peter includes the new heaven and earth as part of the DOTL, the end of the 1,000 years, there is no delay at the end of the 1,000 years, the GWTJ is part of the DOTL. Dan 12 also describes the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous as occurring together as if it occurred on the same day even though it takes place 1,000 years apart.

When scripture alludes to the duration of the DOTL it includes Jesus' return at armagedon and includes the raising of the unrighteous at the GWTJ and the new earth and heaven. No delay is suggested between the end of the 1,000 years and the GWTJ, they are part of the same 'Day', the DOTL.

The theory that Gog-Magog in Ezek and Rev are the same event does not pass the logic test, especially when one considers that Jesus is physically present in Israel for the 1,000 years leading up to Gog-magog II.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:32 pm

David, actually the pouring out of the spirit on Israel does not necessarily mean Israel accepts Christ and has the indwelling of the Spirit.

In the OT Saul had the spirit on him and he prophecied in 1 Sam 10:10. Later he rebelled and God sent an evil or tormenting spirit to him, did Saul still have the Spirit of God on him? In Num 11 the Spirit was placed on 72 elders who prophesied, were the christians? The Spirit came upon Samson and some who worked on the tabernacle, were they christians?

When individuals had the Spirit put on they it was for acts of service or for prophecy, they were not necessarily indwelt be the Holy Spirit as we as Christians are.

In Joel 2, when the Spirit is poured out on Israel, they prophesy. When Israel accepts Christ and mourns for Him in Zech 12 at aramgeddon, a Spirit of grace is poured out on them and there is no prophesying, in fact any who prophesy are punished. A prophet is a messenger sent to bring God's message when God is not visible or present. When Christ returns there is no further need for prophets, He is present, His message will be delivered directly by God Himself.

Joel 3 describes armageddon when Israel will accept Christ and they will not prophesy. Joel 2 describes the Spirit being poured out on Israel and the prophesy, before the coming of the great and terrible DOTL.

Based on the description of what occurs when the Spirit is poured out, Joel 2 and Joel 3 are describing 2 different events.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:44 pm

David, also based on the fasts described, Joel 1 and Joel 2 are describing 2 different events.

There are 2 major fasts on the Hebrew calendar, the Day of Atonement in the fall and the fast of AV in the summer. The Day of Atonement is a fast in which the Israelis are to deny themselves and is preceeded by a call to repentance an turning to the Lord. This would be consistent with Joel 2 :12-17, Israel is called to return to the Lord (the Sabbath of turning before the DoA), and the people cease pleasurable activity, and the priests plead for Israel.

This is in contrast to the fast of AV which begins in the evening and continues through the night when sackcloth is worn, which appears to be consistent with Joel 1: 13-14. Joel 1 also refers to the harvest of the field being destroyed, the grain harvest being completed prior to the month of AV.

Based on the fasts described it would appear that Joel 1 and Joel 2 are describing 2 different time periods, the early summer and the fall. Joel 2 is consistent with Gog-magog, an attack by a northern army that God defeats, and the birds migrate through the area in the spring and the fall, being consistent with a time when the birds could gather to feed on Gog and his armies.

An event associated with the late spring or early summer could be the destruction of Damascus. In Isa 17 a reference is made to the grain harvest in the valley of Rephaim, a higher altitude area which would be harvested later in the season. Isa 18, which some have theorized refers to the US, refers to the flower becoming a ripening grape which occurs in the month of AV.

So Joel 1 may be describing an event, the destruction of Damascus, that leads into the battle in Joel 2, Gog-Magog, which then clears the way for the events that eventually lead into the final battle in Joel 3, armageddon, 7 years later. The 70th week could then be 'bracketed' by major battles in and around Israel, of increasing intensity and severity.
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