Putin Gog/Magog?

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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:46 am

1whowaits wrote:Mr B, actually the theory of Gog-magog in Ezek and Gog in Rev being the same battle makes little sense. After Gog -Magog God regathers all of Israel back to the land and pours out His spirit on them. Israel is regathered at the beginning of the 1,000 years and there is not even the slightest suggestion they have to leave the land after that point. Zech 14 indicates that Jesus rules from Jerusalem, could Jesus not protect them? Also at armageddon, according to Zech 12, Israel accepts Jesus and has a Spirit of grace poured out on them. Will they need additional spirit at the end of the 1,000 years? Will they reject Jesus while He dwells in their midst and they see Him every day?

After Gog God says that Israel was unfaithful to Him prior to Gog-Magog. Where is that found during the millenium? Israel was unfaithful to Jesus while He ruled in Jerusalem? How long would Jesus permit that?

Rev states that Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years the unrighteous dead are raised. The GWTJ is described as occurring after the 1,000 years as if it occurs immediately after, there is no indication of a delay. When Peter describes the DOTL in 2 Peter he states the day comes like a thief, a reference to Jesus coming like a thief at armageddon, and includes the new heaven and earth, which occurs at the time of GWTJ in Rev. And he alludes to the DOTL being 1,000 years.

Peter includes the new heaven and earth as part of the DOTL, the end of the 1,000 years, there is no delay at the end of the 1,000 years, the GWTJ is part of the DOTL. Dan 12 also describes the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous as occurring together as if it occurred on the same day even though it takes place 1,000 years apart.

When scripture alludes to the duration of the DOTL it includes Jesus' return at armagedon and includes the raising of the unrighteous at the GWTJ and the new earth and heaven. No delay is suggested between the end of the 1,000 years and the GWTJ, they are part of the same 'Day', the DOTL.

The theory that Gog-Magog in Ezek and Rev are the same event does not pass the logic test, especially when one considers that Jesus is physically present in Israel for the 1,000 years leading up to Gog-magog II.


Hi 1whowaits,

I can tell by your reply that you neither viewed the video in it's entirety (or paid attention to it), nor did you read the subsequent commentaries that I recommended by J. Paul Tanner - "Rethinking Ezekiel's Invasion by Gog" and the article written by Ralph H Alexander - "A Fresh Look at Ezekiel 38 and 39" which were mentioned in the video.

For in both of these commentaries you would have found answers to the questions you raise about the Millennial Kingdom. Let me remind you that sin, death, and rebellion will still continue on planet Earth - even as Jesus is Physically Reigning in Jerusalem. There would be no need for Jesus to rule with a rod of iron - or Reign until He has defeated the last enemy, which is "death" - if this were not so. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

Now I certainly agree with you that the DOTL encompasses the 1,000 year Reign - but you are leaving out the "little season" which has no specified time period, and occurs after the Gog/Magog war. This is a part of the DOTL as well as "death" has not been defeated and/or conquered which would subsequently fulfill the requirement set forth in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - in that "death" - the "last enemy" will have finally been destroyed and put under the feet of Jesus. You are further speculating about the GWTJ occurring "immediately" after the 1,000 year Reign. Just a WHOLE lot of speculation in your analogy.

In closing, you have mentioned:

The theory that Gog-Magog in Ezek and Rev are the same event does not pass the logic test, especially when one considers that Jesus is physically present in Israel for the 1,000 years leading up to Gog-magog II.


1whowaits, the problem with passing the "logic test" is the God we serve is not "logical". His ways are Higher than our ways; His understanding is Higher than our understanding - and we certainly should not put Him in a box according to "thus thinketh man logically". Again, death, sin, and rebellion will continue in the Millennial Kingdom, even as Jesus is Reigning. It will be the offspring of those allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in "mortal bodies", at the Sheep & Goats Judgment who have repopulated the Earth and will become rebellious as the Millennial Reign of Christ closes. These are the same who are "Deceived" by Satan when he is let loose for the "little season" - which has no specified time period. I believe that there is only one Gog/Magog war - and it's mentioned both in the book of Ezekiel and Revelation. Too many other parts of Scripture working in conjunction with this War just simply add up for it not to be.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:58 am

I think the best answer to the video is that Magog is a dual fulfillment. What the video does not mention, I just realized, is that it does not mention that in Eze 38, Tarshish and Dedan protest the invasion.

Tarshish and Dedan are in Arabia. Arabia is set to be destroyed and never inhabited again Jeremiah 49, Isaiah 21, Isaiah 34. So such a protest cannot happen at the end of the millennium as no one will be living there. However, as I stated, I believe it will be a near-far fulfillment with subtle differences but practically a repeat.
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:17 pm

Mr B, i find your statement interesting. Logic is the use of reason to understand facts and arrive at a conclusion, aka wisdom, the prudent application of knowledge. God is the author of wisdom and thereby logic, so i think He might take issue with your statement.

So let us reason this out, Jesus returns in Zech 12 and 14 and all Israel, the faithful remnant of Zech 13, accepts Christ and becomes a Jewish nation of Christians. All Israel goes into the millenium with Jesus (and us) reigning from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

While there are unsaved survivors of the nations that go into the millenium that will sin, according to Zech 14, Israel will be a Christian nation, a Jewish nation with Christ as their Savior and King. What is the likelihood Israel will rebel as a nation, be sent into exile as a nation, and then have to be regathered after Gog-magog II to the land after the 1,000 years? Rev 20 mentions nothing about Israel rebelling, only the other nations of the world who attack Jerusalem, which is in Israel.

Also Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years the resurrection of the unrighteous dead occurs followed by the GWTJ. Does scripture appear to describe that Jesus' reign ends after 1,000 years and then the world goes wild with Satan and sometime later the GWTJ takes place? Or does scripture more likely describe the GWTJ occurring at the very end of the 1,000 years, in preparation for the eternal reign of Christ, His kingdom being an everlasting kingdom, His reign does not end.

Rev 20 states that Satan is set free for a short time when the 1,000 years are over and at that time, when the 1,000 years are over, the 1,000 year reign ends and the unrighteous dead are raised to face the GWTJ. All these events are described as occurring when the 1,000 years are over, would they not overlap? They could overlap but still be separate, from a certain point of view.

In the eastern mind a part of a day or year is considered the same as an entire day or year (as in Jesus buried on Friday, raised on Sunday being considered 3 days).

Considering this, could it be that Satan is released sometime during the 1,000th year, 999+ 1 day or more, and then his 1,000 years would be at an end. He could cause his mischief for a 'short time'. less that 1 year, after which the 1,000 years would fully be at an end for the 2nd resurrection and the GWTJ.

There are certainly more 'logical' answers than those presented in the video.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:18 am

Hi 1whowaits,

Let's take a look at what you written:

1whowaits wrote:Mr B, i find your statement interesting. Logic is the use of reason to understand facts and arrive at a conclusion, aka wisdom, the prudent application of knowledge. God is the author of wisdom and thereby logic, so i think He might take issue with your statement.


In response to your aforementioned statement, all I can mention is the minute you begin to put an All Knowing, All Powerful, Eternal God into a box, and think that He is "logical" by man's understanding then you are certainly missing the point.

1whowaits wrote:While there are unsaved survivors of the nations that go into the millenium that will sin


You will find nowhere in Scripture that the Nations that are allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom are "unsaved". At the Sheep & Goats Judgment those allowed into the Kingdom in mortal bodies will indeed be saved. It is their offspring that will be gathered by Satan to "rebel" against the saints at the Gog/Magog War.

1whowaits wrote:What is the likelihood Israel will rebel as a nation, be sent into exile as a nation, and then have to be regathered after Gog-magog II to the land after the 1,000 years? Rev 20 mentions nothing about Israel rebelling, only the other nations of the world who attack Jerusalem, which is in Israel.


Now this is where you appear to be "reading into" Scripture. The Gog/Magog war has nothing to do with Israel being sent into exile or being re-gathered or rebelling. So I'm not understanding your point.

1whowaits wrote:Also Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years the resurrection of the unrighteous dead occurs followed by the GWTJ. Does scripture appear to describe that Jesus' reign ends after 1,000 years and then the world goes wild with Satan and sometime later the GWTJ takes place? Or does scripture more likely describe the GWTJ occurring at the very end of the 1,000 years, in preparation for the eternal reign of Christ, His kingdom being an everlasting kingdom, His reign does not end.


1whowaits, aren't you leaving a very important issue out of your very assuming question? Scripture is very clear that Satan is released from his prison AFTER the 1,000 year Reign of Christ to deceive the Nations that are in the four corners of the Earth. Let me remind you that just because Satan has been let loose - this has absolutely nothing to do about the Reign of Christ. Please remember that sin, death, and rebellion will continue even in the Millennial Kingdom as Christ is Reigning. The period in which Satan is allowed to deceive the Nations of the Earth is not given. Nor can you speculate that the GWTJ occurs immediately after the 1,000 year Reign of Christ - as this information is not provided.

1whowaits wrote:Rev 20 states that Satan is set free for a short time when the 1,000 years are over and at that time, when the 1,000 years are over, the 1,000 year reign ends and the unrighteous dead are raised to face the GWTJ. All these events are described as occurring when the 1,000 years are over, would they not overlap? They could overlap but still be separate, from a certain point of view.


1whowaits, in your aforementioned statement it appears as if your fishing for a reason to justify your speculation. Again, the period of time that Satan is allowed to deceive the Nations is not provided in Scripture - but is it time nevertheless. This time occurs after the 1,000 year Reign of Christ and prior to the GWTJ - so there is no "overlap".

1whowaits wrote:There are certainly more 'logical' answers than those presented in the video.


I agree. This is also why I have asked you to read: "Rethinking Ezekiel's Invasion by Gog" - by J. Paul Tanner and "A Fresh Look at Ezekiel 38 And 39" - by Ralph H. Alexander. Both of these Articles provide some very interesting information about the timing of the Gog/Magog war, and can simply be found just by Googling the title and names. It's Free! :mrgreen:

In closing, often I have found that when one makes up his or her mind about anything - it's very seldom that anyone can change their view. Many still hang on to the erroneous Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory even when ample evidence has been presented over and over again to refute it. Nevertheless, things such as this have nothing to do with Salvation, but it's still fun, and often very edifying to those who seek Truth. If we continue in God's Word surely the Truth will manifest itself.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:23 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi 1whowaits,

<SNIP>

1whowaits wrote:While there are unsaved survivors of the nations that go into the millenium that will sin


You will find nowhere in Scripture that the Nations that are allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom are "unsaved". At the Sheep & Goats Judgment those allowed into the Kingdom in mortal bodies will indeed be saved. It is their offspring that will be gathered by Satan to "rebel" against the saints at the Gog/Magog War.

<SNIP>


Mr B.

How sure are you that the Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep and Goat Judgement occurs at the Beginning of the Millennium Age.

From my reading of the Scriptures, I understand that this parable relates to the time at the end of the Millennium Age and not the Beginning of the Millennium Age.

This make a big difference in our respective understanding and people will simple disagree with your emphatic views on this particular subject matter.

In the Sheep and the Goats parable we are told that the ones on his right hand are told the following: -
Matt 25:34: - Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
NKJV


And we are also told that the ones on his left hand enter the lake of Fire: -
Matt 25:41: - "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
NKJV


Now in Daniel 7:25-27 it tells us that the saints receive the kingdom after the one uttering pompous words is judged and his dominion is removed from him and destroyed forever. It is only then that the Saints receive their inheritance: -
Dan 7:25-27: - 25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 'But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'
NKJV


Perhaps there is a need for further clarification from scriptures as to when the Sheep and the Goat judgement occurs since it seem to be too late for it to determine which people and people groups are to enter into the Millennium Age and become a part of the messianic Kingdom which will be established during the time of these Kings as spoke about in Daniel 2. I am of the opinion/view that your time line is a little skewed to suit your own "story" of the end times.

So be it.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:55 am

Jay Ross wrote:How sure are you that the Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep and Goat Judgement occurs at the Beginning of the Millennium Age.From my reading of the Scriptures, I understand that this parable relates to the time at the end of the Millennium Age and not the Beginning of the Millennium Age.This make a big difference in our respective understanding and people will simple disagree with your emphatic views on this particular subject matter.


Hi Jay Ross :mrgreen:

I would say that your interpretation of Scripture is wrong if you believe that the Sheep & Goats Judgment occurs at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 24:31-46 is quite clear:

The Sheep & Goats Judgment

31)“But when the Son of Man COMES in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


If you'll notice Verse 31 clearly states that Christ COMES - where is He coming to? The Earth of course - as He is with ALL of the holy angels as well. He will come to Rule and Reign. Prior to His Millennial Kingdom commencing He cleans house, hence the purpose for the Sheep & Goats Judgment. The people whom He is Judging are all ALIVE at His Coming, none of them have been resurrected - (save; or except for those who were caught up in the air to meet Him at the Rapture). Those on the right are those who have survived the Great Tribulation; have become saved and will be allow into the Kingdom in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth. Those on the left will "go away" - or placed into the holding cell called Hades to await the 2nd resurrection - which occurs after the 1,000 year Reign, where they will stand at the GWTJ to finally be sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

How you have come up with the fact that the Sheep & Goats Judgment happens after the Millennial Kingdom is beyond me. :roll:
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:48 am

Mr B.

It seems that you are making much from the silence of the scriptures and assuming that you know the plan that God has for the redemption of the earth.

In Ezekiel 34 we are told that there will be a separation of a flock from a flock and then a second separation of the Rams, {sheep} from the He-goats {goats} which Jesus describes in the Judgement of the Nations where he separates the Sheep from the Goats.

In Daniel 2 we are told the following concerning the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom: -
Dan 2:34-35: - (34) You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. (35) Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
NKJV

Dan 2:44-45: - (44) And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. (45) Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."
NKJV


It should be noted, that the Daniel 2 passages quoted above speaks of the establishment of a Kingdom which shall stand forever and that it will not be left to another people. The time frame for the events in these four verses is not provided and as such the Bible is again silent on how long it takes for all of the nations to be crushed by the "rock" that comes down from heaven and when this is finally achieved.

Yet Mr. B you speak as if you have had this revealed to you, yet your understanding does not match up with scripture. it sounds like the story that you are telling us, is what you would like to see happen but it does not keep to the script that is provided for us within the Bible.

As I have previously suggested, perhaps there is a need for you to re-think your views on the end time so that they do match what has been recorded in the Bible before you go and judge what others may post concerning their particular understanding of the Biblical End Time's prophecies. What you are putting forward on matters concerning the End Times, does not sit well with me.

Oh well, so be it.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:37 pm

Mr B, it would appear that the sheep and goats judgement is the GWTJ. Jesus sends the unrighteous into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. the devil is thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20, the place of final and eternal punishment. Other than the AC and FP, there is no instance of any human being cast into the Lake of Fire until the GWTJ.

Also the righteous are given their inheritance, the kingdom prepared since the foundation of the world. This inheritance would be no earthly kingdom but one that God built, which would be the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven, which occurs after the GWTJ.

In Rev 20, at the GWTJ, earth and sky flee and then a new earth and heaven are seen in Rev 21, suggesting that the earth and heaven are being burned with fire and remade at the time of the GWTJ. If the physical earth and stars are being burned and remade, where would the GWTJ take place? Jesus states that he will come in glory and sit on His throne in heavenly glory, where is His throne in heavenly glory? it appears that Jesus is returning to heaven to sit on His throne in heavenly glory at the time of the GWTJ.

In Matt 24 and 25 Jesus is describing the events at the beginning and the end of the DOTL.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:18 am

Hi 1whowaits,

Let's take a look at what you have written:

1whowaits wrote:Mr B, it would appear that the sheep and goats judgement is the GWTJ.


1whowaits, you are wrong. If the Sheep & Goats Judgment is one and the same as the GWTJ - then you must rule out the Millennial Kingdom. You must also rule out the fact that there is a resurrection for the wicked as well.

1whowaits wrote:Jesus sends the unrighteous into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. the devil is thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20, the place of final and eternal punishment.


When Jesus comes to Earth - the Sheep & Goats Judgment commences. Those wicked on His left are NOT sent to the Lake of Fire, but to Hades - they have been sentenced to await Judgment at the GWTJ - as mentioned in Matthew 25:46. This is why Matthew 25:46 mentions that "they will go away to eternal punishment." Hades is a place of torment; where weeping and gnashing of teeth are described, and a "holding cell" for the wicked dead. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is not mentioned as being an element of the Lake of Fire, so let's not get the two mixed up. After Christ has Reigned for 1,000 years; Satan is let loose to deceive those who have not received Him during His Reign for a "little season". Fire from Heaven will come to devour those evil ones in this Gog/Magog war event - as mentioned in Revelation 20:7-10. At the GWTJ the wicked are resurrected, books are opened; to include the Book of Life. These are the wicked dead. Everyone at the GWTJ was DEAD. This is in contrast to the Sheep & Goats Judgment where folk are ALIVE at His Coming. There is no separation of the Righteous and Unrighteous at the GWTJ - So there is a difference. Those wicked who are standing at the GWTJ before God will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Death & Hades are further cast into the Lake of Fire. It's over, it's FINAL.


In closing, 1whowaits and Jay Ross - you cannot have it both ways. If the Sheep & Goats Judgment is one and the same as the GWTJ - then there is no Millennial Kingdom, and it ALL ENDS when Christ Returns. I don't believe Scripture teaches that.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby kirthril on Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:48 pm

I am in agreement with Mr. Baldy here.

If one reads the Sheep/Goats judgment in context Jesus separates based on one thing and one thing only:

Did you or did you not take care of my brothers/sisters during their greatest time of need?

This is clearly a post-tribulational pre-millennium judgement that consists of the "survivors of the nations". Those who put their lives on the line, under threat of death, to take care of Christians/jews who have become outcasts in the world, hunted and persecuted, hungry, homeless with no possessions. Those who survive who risked death to help God's childred, Jesus will call them "blessed" and they will enter the millennium kingdom.

Those who did not, those who tried to save their lives, by disassociating themselves from God's children, Jesus will call them "accursed" and to hades they will go.

Sheep/Goats is for those who survive all the way through Gods wrath, the few remaining after the earth is made desolate and humanity scarce. I doubt those who took the mark will be a part of this. Ie... the millennium is populated by those who refused the mark but also did not acknowledge God, but by Gods mercy, the same mercy they showed to Christians/jews in suffering, they will continue on. Many think it will be the jewish remnant that will repopulate, that is false since the bible makes clear there will be survivors from all nations and that the Israeli remnant will more or less remain confined in the middle east (within the original boundaries of the holy land).
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:40 pm

kirthril wrote:This is clearly a post-tribulational pre-millennium judgement that consists of the "survivors of the nations". Those who put their lives on the line, under threat of death, to take care of Christians/jews who have become outcasts in the world, hunted and persecuted, hungry, homeless with no possessions. Those who survive who risked death to help God's childred, Jesus will call them "blessed" and they will enter the millennium kingdom.


EXACTLY Kirthril!

Great analogy on the rest of this topic as well! :sunshine:
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:15 pm

The events described in Matt 25 occur at specific times, the unrighteous are only cast into the lake of fire at the time of the GWTJ, and the righteous receive their inheritance, the New Jerusalem, after the GWTJ. These are specific events that occur at a specific time.

The only event that raises a question is the statement in Matt 25 of when the Son of Man comes..where is He coming to? Rev 4 describes the throne room scene in which Jesus the Lamb is present with the Father in heven and breaks the seals, prior to the GT. Dan 7 also appears to describe the same throne room scene but depicts events that occur after the description of Rev 4 as the beast is described as being destroyed which occurs at the time of armageddon.

In Dan 7, after describing the end of the GT, one like the Son of Man come with the clouds of heaven and approaches the Father. As Rev 4 describes Jesus as being present with the Father in heaven during this time and Jesus does not leave heaven until armageddon, when would Jesus come in the clouds of heaven and approach the Father? How can Jesus come in the clouds of heaven to be lead into the presence of the Father when Jesus has been in heaven on the throne with the Father the entire time prior to armageddon?

As Jesus is in heaven through the entire throne room scene and the only time Jesus is described as leaving heaven is armageddon, Dan 7 is describing an event that occurs some time after armageddon,a time when Jesus returns to the Father in heaven, and at that event Jesus is described as' coming in the clouds' of heaven as He returns to heaven.

Dan 7 also states that all peoples and nations will worship Jesus, which does not appear to occur during the millenium as Zech 14 describes the punishment of those who do not go up to worship Him, implying that there are those who do not worship Jesus during the millenium.

Dan 7 also states the His dominion is everlasting and His kingdom will never be destroyed, but as Rev describes the kingdom of the earth will be destroyed by fire and remade at the time of the GWTJ, the earthly millennial kingdom is not eternal and will be destroyed. But after the GWTJ the eternal kingdom of the New Jerusalem will be established and all nations will come into it.

So it appears that Dan 7 is describing Jesus' return to the Father in heaven after the millenium at which time the Son is given authority to judge all nations at the GWTJ, which is what Matt 25 is describing.
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Re: Putin Gog/Magog?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:00 am

1whowaits wrote:Dan 7 also states that all peoples and nations will worship Jesus, which does not appear to occur during the millenium as Zech 14 describes the punishment of those who do not go up to worship Him, implying that there are those who do not worship Jesus during the millenium.Dan 7 also states the His dominion is everlasting and His kingdom will never be destroyed, but as Rev describes the kingdom of the earth will be destroyed by fire and remade at the time of the GWTJ, the earthly millennial kingdom is not eternal and will be destroyed. But after the GWTJ the eternal kingdom of the New Jerusalem will be established and all nations will come into it.So it appears that Dan 7 is describing Jesus' return to the Father in heaven after the millenium at which time the Son is given authority to judge all nations at the GWTJ, which is what Matt 25 is describing.


HI 1whowaits,

I respectfully disagree with your assessment and/or analogy of how you are trying to unite ALL of the aforementioned passages of Scripture you have presented in your comments. First let me say that you are reading way too much into Daniel 7. Furthermore, there is a difference between the "kingdom of the earth" being destroyed and the Kingdom of Christ being destroyed - which by the way has no ending. You have also mentioned that the "millennial kingdom" is not eternal and will be destroyed - where do you get this information? Just because Heaven and Earth will "pass away" or be destroyed by fire does not negate the FACT that the Kingdom of Christ ever ends. You have further assigned Jesus returning to the Father in Heaven "after" the Millennial Kingdom, and I have seen no evidence of that as well.

Last, but certainly not least.... you have compared Daniel 7 to Matthew 25 in that you have described the Sheep & Goats Judgment being one and the same as the GWTJ. This is completely impossible. Again, at the GWTJ there are only the DEAD described - which is in contrast to the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His Coming to Earth where the Righteous and Unrighteous are separated. You cannot have it both ways.
Mr Baldy
 
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