Gog to come this year to Israel??????

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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby SueAnn on Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:56 pm

good4u wrote:
ACfrom Turkey wrote:It is a very minor issue compared to the rest of the issues that face those who say Gog is not the AC. He will be cast from his grave. The AC is said to be killed or slain in many other passages. I know I'm not going to convince you 1whowaits so we will just wait until a person from the area sets up the aod (or at least his forces set it up) and then you will know. After this year passes with no Gog attack and especially when a covenant is confirmed will people then begin to consider that the European theory is past its time.


Well, this is an interesting thought...you propose that the AC is from w/in the MiddleEast? Am I reading too much into your statement and if I am where is the AC coming from and your biblical basis? I am curious...I just love discussion because it expands understanding if it is biblical. Thanks, AC.


Goody,
if you glance at the screen name of the person to whom you addressed your question, you may get a clue as to his/her belief about the national origin of the Antichrist. :wink: :wink:
ﺗﻜﻮﻳﻦ 12
وَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لأَبْرَامَ: «اتْرُكْ أَرْضَكَ وَعَشِيرَتَكَ وَبَيْتَ أَبِيكَ وَاذْهَبْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُرِيكَ،
فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:20 pm

Excellent post, ACfromTurkey! Welcome to the board.

I think the scriptures are overwhelmingly in support of Gog/Magog occurring post AoD. In this view, Israel would come to some kind of agreement with the arab nations which will allow them to rebuild their temple, and that will be followed by the AoD, and then Ezekiel's war, finally ending with the Lord being known among the nations. This agreement prior to the Aod may even be accomplished by Javier himself.

I have noted that Gog cannot be proven to be a person, it may possibly be a general reference to a multitude of persons. Does a single person usually get buried in a mass grave? It seems there would be many people being buried in a mass grave, not just one person.

ACfromTurkey wrote:Eze 39:7 "My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

He will not let His holy name be profaned any more...certainly this does not occur prior to the 70th week.
The Lord's name is definitely being profaned presently, I hear it just about every day of the week. Even when the temple is being rebuilt, and the sacrifices resumed, there will still be people abroad who will profane the name of the Lord. I am sure it will continue until the end of the age, when Christ comes back at the Day of the Lord and people shake with fear at His presence.

ACfromTurkey wrote:Eze 39:8 "Behold, it is coming and it shall be done," declares the Lord GOD. "That is the day of which I have spoken.


What is the day of which He has spoken?

The day of the Lord
I think this says it all. That day when it shall be done, is the Day of the Lord, which is near the end of the 70th week.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby SueAnn on Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:39 pm

savedbygrace wrote:Excellent post, ACfromTurkey! Welcome to the board.

I think the scriptures are overwhelmingly in support of Gog/Magog occurring post AoD. In this view, Israel would come to some kind of agreement with the arab nations which will allow them to rebuild their temple, and that will be followed by the AoD, and then Ezekiel's war, finally ending with the Lord being known among the nations. This agreement prior to the Aod may even be accomplished by Javier himself.

I have noted that Gog cannot be proven to be a person, it may possibly be a general reference to a multitude of persons. Does a single person usually get buried in a mass grave? It seems there would be many people being buried in a mass grave, not just one person.

ACfromTurkey wrote:Eze 39:7 "My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

He will not let His holy name be profaned any more...certainly this does not occur prior to the 70th week.
The Lord's name is definitely being profaned presently, I hear it just about every day of the week. Even when the temple is being rebuilt, and the sacrifices resumed, there will still be people abroad who will profane the name of the Lord. I am sure it will continue until the end of the age, when Christ comes back at the Day of the Lord and people shake with fear at His presence.

ACfromTurkey wrote:Eze 39:8 "Behold, it is coming and it shall be done," declares the Lord GOD. "That is the day of which I have spoken.


What is the day of which He has spoken?

The day of the Lord
I think this says it all. That day when it shall be done, is the Day of the Lord, which is near the end of the 70th week.


I read somewhere that the Dome Of The Rock has an inscription on the outside of the building that proclaims, "God has no son." Clearly a rejection of Jesus' divinity. Is it possible that having those words on the outside of the building that has usurped the geographical location of the Lord's Temple is an example of profanity of God's Holy name?

Just for the record, I think you are all waiting for something to happen that already happened and is currently happening. The Abomination of Desolation.
The Dome of the Rock is the AofD. Muhammed was the False Prophet. The Antichrist is the Islamic Mahdi, who is yet to come.
ﺗﻜﻮﻳﻦ 12
وَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لأَبْرَامَ: «اتْرُكْ أَرْضَكَ وَعَشِيرَتَكَ وَبَيْتَ أَبِيكَ وَاذْهَبْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُرِيكَ،
فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:59 am

Isa 14:19 "But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse.

2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Isa 31:8 And the Assyrian will fall by a sword not of man, And a sword not of man will devour him. So he will not escape the sword, And his young men will become forced laborers.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Seeker on Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:00 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

As I often point out to you, the AC is shown killed in scripture. That refutes your argument totally. If he can be killed without being thrown alive in the fire in one part of scripture it is possible in other parts.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


This verse refers to the king of the 4th kingdom which will be a man. The beast (king) was slain, his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. The horn is the little horn which subdues 3 of the original 10 horns depicted. This is commonly known to refer to the AC. Thus we have a clear picture of the mortal death of the AC prior to be thrown into the fire.

Now back to scriptures to see when the Gog war takes place. Ezekiel 39 lists some things that happen at the conclusion of the Gog war. Besides the earthquake that causes every creature on earth to shake in Ezekiel 38 we have these things that God says about His relationship with Israel. These things can only take place after the Jews accept Jesus as their Messiah.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


So for the things in Ezekiel 39 to be true the Jews will have to have accepted Jesus before the Father accepts them again. There is only one way to the Father and that is through His Son Jesus and Jesus left it very clear. Here are the things that happen between God and Israel at the conclusion of the Gog war.

Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.


The armies of Gog that are left are killed in the mountains of Israel. Below are all the things God will do for Israel at the conclusion of the Gog war.

And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken. And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Magog and the isles will know He is the Lord after He sends fire on them during the Gog campaign. God will make His holy name known in the midst of His people Israel at that time. He will not let Israel pollute His holy name any more at that time. The heathen (nations) will know He is the Lord, the holy one of Israel at that time. It has come it is done the day the Lord has spoken of. What day has the Lord spoken of prior to Ezekiel in scripture? They will burn the weapons having no need for them.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

The day Gog and company are buried will be to the people a renown day in which God will be glorified.

And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

God will set His glory among the nations and all the nations will see the Lord's judgment that He has executed on Gog. They will know it was the Lord's hand that did it. The house of Israel will know the Lord is their God from that day and forward (for ever). The nations will understand that they were able to defeat Israel only because God hid His face from Israel. Now, after the Gog battle, God will have mercy upon the whole house of Israel.

After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

When God gathers them again (after the AC/Gog scatters them) He will be santified in the eyes of many nations. They will know it was God that gathered them back to their own land. He will no longer hide His face from them for He will have poured out His spirit upon the house of Israel at the conclusion of the Gog war. Couple this with the obvious references to Revelation in Eze 38 and there is no time other than the conclusion of the 70th week that all these conditions can be true. God does not bring Israel back into the fold until after the time of the Gentiles is complete.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


And this is exactly what is described in Eze 38-39 God returning to deal with Israel after the Gentiles. This timestamps Eze 38-39 for us. The events portrayed in those two chapters can only occur after God accepts Israel once again. That can only occur when the Israel accepts Jesus as shown here; again linked to the very end of the 70th week.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


This is the same picture Ezekiel paints. Actually all the prophets paint the same picture once we are able to recognize the picture. In all cases the prophets speak of a time when the enemies of Israel attack and nearly wipe out Jerusalem. The Lord God intervenes saving Israel. Israel is then with the Lord for ever after. Each prophet is speaking about the same set of events from slightly different perspectives. The NT and Revelation especially continue this pattern. The whole bible is about Jesus when we really boil it all down. What we see in Revelation is the same as what we see in the OT. There is one final battle described by many different prophets. Once we can see this then we can understand that each account gives us a different set of truths. All the truths in all the stories must be true at the same time. We must be able to zoom out and see the bigger picture before attempting to understand the bits and pieces. Basically we are given a lot of information about the last 7 years throughout the bible. The hard part is understanding that it is all true and therefore all must fit into our scenarios as we consider scripture. Gog has to be the AC they exist in the same timeframe, the final 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Exit40 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:29 pm

SueAnn wrote:I read somewhere that the Dome Of The Rock has an inscription on the outside of the building that proclaims, "God has no son." Clearly a rejection of Jesus' divinity. Is it possible that having those words on the outside of the building that has usurped the geographical location of the Lord's Temple is an example of profanity of God's Holy name?

Just for the record, I think you are all waiting for something to happen that already happened and is currently happening. The Abomination of Desolation.
The Dome of the Rock is the AofD. Muhammed was the False Prophet. The Antichrist is the Islamic Mahdi, who is yet to come.


Hi Sueann. Actually the inscription is the following I believe, and it is written all around the entire inside of the Dome of the Rock mosque.

'Far be it from God that he should have a son'.

Hard to imagine anything more blasphemous than this building with that written all over in it, right there on the Temple Mount. Certainly a denial of Christs' divinity, and not only that, it's the wrong god ! But that one will have a son alright, the son of perdition, so their gods name is perdition/allah/satan. Why would they even bother saying that, except to be in direct opposition to and in place of the one true God, the God of the Jews and Christians. And while muslims acknowledge Jesus they can't come to a concensus of what happened to Him, but they all agree He didn't die on the cross, therefore was never ressurected, and He is not the Son of God. Blasphemers !

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - per·di·tion /pərˈdɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key -
Show Spelled Pronunciation[per-dish-uhn] –noun
1. a state of final spiritual ruin; loss of the soul; damnation.
2. the future state of the wicked.
3. hell (def. 1).
4. utter destruction or ruin.
5. Obsolete. loss.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1300–50; < L perditiōn- (s. of perditiō) destruction, equiv. to perdit(us) (ptp. of perdere to do in, ruin, lose, equiv. to per- per- + di-, comb. form of dare to give + -tus ptp. suffix) + -iōn -ion; r. ME perdiciun < OF < L, as above]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


God Bless You

David
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby good4u on Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:30 pm

Seeker, are you a post-tribber, you post smacks of it. Just curious to know where you are coming from.
"Spirituality wrongly understood or pursued is a major source of human misery and rebellion against God."

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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby SueAnn on Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:58 pm

Exit40 wrote:
SueAnn wrote:I read somewhere that the Dome Of The Rock has an inscription on the outside of the building that proclaims, "God has no son." Clearly a rejection of Jesus' divinity. Is it possible that having those words on the outside of the building that has usurped the geographical location of the Lord's Temple is an example of profanity of God's Holy name?

Just for the record, I think you are all waiting for something to happen that already happened and is currently happening. The Abomination of Desolation.
The Dome of the Rock is the AofD. Muhammed was the False Prophet. The Antichrist is the Islamic Mahdi, who is yet to come.


Hi Sueann. Actually the inscription is the following I believe, and it is written all around the entire inside of the Dome of the Rock mosque.

'Far be it from God that he should have a son'.

Hard to imagine anything more blasphemous than this building with that written all over in it, right there on the Temple Mount. Certainly a denial of Christs' divinity, and not only that, it's the wrong god ! But that one will have a son alright, the son of perdition, so their gods name is perdition/allah/satan. Why would they even bother saying that, except to be in direct opposition to and in place of the one true God, the God of the Jews and Christians. And while muslims acknowledge Jesus they can't come to a concensus of what happened to Him, but they all agree He didn't die on the cross, therefore was never ressurected, and He is not the Son of God. Blasphemers !

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - per·di·tion /pərˈdɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key -
Show Spelled Pronunciation[per-dish-uhn] –noun
1. a state of final spiritual ruin; loss of the soul; damnation.
2. the future state of the wicked.
3. hell (def. 1).
4. utter destruction or ruin.
5. Obsolete. loss.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1300–50; < L perditiōn- (s. of perditiō) destruction, equiv. to perdit(us) (ptp. of perdere to do in, ruin, lose, equiv. to per- per- + di-, comb. form of dare to give + -tus ptp. suffix) + -iōn -ion; r. ME perdiciun < OF < L, as above]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


God Bless You

David


Good heavens, David, that is even worse than I thought.
I can't even imagine how much that must hurt Jesus' feelings, and infuriate our God!!

Thank you so much for correcting me, David.
ﺗﻜﻮﻳﻦ 12
وَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لأَبْرَامَ: «اتْرُكْ أَرْضَكَ وَعَشِيرَتَكَ وَبَيْتَ أَبِيكَ وَاذْهَبْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُرِيكَ،
فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:20 pm

Good4u, yes Seeker is a post tribber, and on that i totally agree with him, am i right Seeker?

Seeker, actually in Dan 7 it would appear that the AC is the little horn that speaks boastfully, that is the clue that it is the AC (from Rev 13- given a mouth to utter proud words...). It would appear that the beast that is killed is the kingdom of the horn (AC), and the other kingdoms are referred to as 'beasts'. It is a little confusing, in Rev the AC is called the beast and he is thrown into the fire, in Dan the AC is a horn and his kingdom is thrown into the fire.

I am attempting to look at this in more of an ananlytical view. I would agree there are many similarities between Gog and the AC, between Gog-magog and armageddon, but do similarities make 2 things the exact same thing? 2 similar things could be the same thing, unless some significant differences can be demonstrated between the 2.

So one must look at what scripture presents as objectively as possible. The similarities are noted and not in dispute. The question is whether the differences are great enough to demonstrate that 2 different events are being discussed.

There is no disagreement that the body of the AC is killed and destroyed, the difference is the manner and time in which it is destroyed. Ezek indicates that Gog is buried with all his armies in a valley in Israel. This would appear to indicate that Gog is killed (unless he is buried alive), and buried in a mass grave, 'Gog and all his hordes will be buried there', after the Gog-Magog battle.

In contrast the AC is captured alive after armageddon and then cast alive into the Lake of Fire with the FP, according to Rev 19. Certainly the bodies of the AC and FP are consumed by the fire after they are thrown ito the Lake of Fire, but they appear to initially be alive when they hit the fire.

The 2 descriptions are completely different. Gog is killed and buried, not captured alive and thrown into an eternal fire. Even if Gog were killed and buried and then his soul were cast into the fire this would still differ from the AC, the AC still has his body when he is cast 'alive' into the fire.

The death of Gog and the AC are completely different, they cannot be reconciled. From a analytical standpoint if there is a significant difference that cannot be reconciled then 2 different things are being discussed. While significant similarities exist, significant differences also exist which cannot be reconciled, and one has to consider both aspects if one is to determine if these 2 events are the same.

And the deaths of the AC and Gog are not the only differences noted. There are several differences between Ezek and Rev- 1) coming against the mountains vs coming against Jerusalem in the valley 2) all nations gathered vs a limited number of nations, 3) God sends plague and bloodshed vs Jesus killing with the sword of His mouth, 4) the armies are buried vs the armies dissolving and blood running up to the horses bridle 5) Gog only mentioned at the end vs Satan, the AC and FP clearly together at the end 6) Gog a regional event vs armageddon a worldwide event-- to name just a few.

Also the condidtion of Israel at Gog does not fit that of Israel at armageddon. Prior to Gog Israel lives in security in the center of the land and is peaceful and unsuspecting. Prior to armageddon Israel is protected in the wilderness while Satan persues her to kill her(hardly peacful and unsuspecting or even dwelling in the land).

Prior to Gog Israel does not know God and dwells in saftey without God. Prior to armageddon Israel appears to know who God is(she rebuilds the temple and there is a 1/3 faithful remnant) and is protected by God in the wilderness.

After Gog Israel knows that God is the Lord, a general statement. After armageddon Israel knows and mourns for Jesus, the one who was pierced, a specific statement.

The similarities are there between Gog-Magog and armageddon, but so are the differences. If the differneces cannot be resolved then it would appear that scripture is sending us a message.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:10 pm

1whowaits,

There is much we don't know regarding the specifics about the beast, the Antichrist, personage of Gog etc...

I think you are assuming that the beast that is cast alive into the lake of fire is the mortal body of the Antichrist cast alive mortally into the lake of fire.

Also, all the other supposed differences you post are a misrepresentation of how many view Ezekiel 38-39.

Example:

") all nations gathered vs a limited number of nations"

You are assuming that the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 are the only nations at Armageddn. Ezekiel 38 is describing the attack at the midpoint of the 70th week NOT Armageddon.

"1) coming against the mountains vs coming against Jerusalem in the valley"

huh? clearly the Antichrist comes against the mountains of Israel, but the specific battle of Armageddon is likely fought in the valley of Meggido.. Did you notice that Gog and his horde are lain slain in the valley of passengers and buried there?

etc...

The one and only "difference" can be resolved.

However, the numerous issues that face those who don't believe this is a 70th week event cannot be resolved.

I agree with many of your posts and beliefs 1whowaits and I hope my disagreement with you does not come across harsh as I don't want it to; however, I am certain about the timing of this passage.

Hopefully it won't really matter come time, hopefully everyone will realize what is going on and not be deceived somehow in looking in the wrong area for the AC.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby good4u on Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:01 pm

Regardless of all the details ---as interesting as they are 1whowaits and AC---I want to round out the discussion and bring it back to now i.e., this summer and up to the US Presidential election. With all available information from the net and this website and your own personal study of prophetic events...let's do a straw vote...how many believe that there will probably be some type of catastophic event in the next three months between Israel and one of her Muslim ME enemies?

My vote...yes. There will be something to cause Israel to attack severely one of her enemies. My vote is Iran.

What say you?
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:38 pm

I'm thinking that Javier Solana will force the nations to refrain from military action and keep the relative 'peace', or come to some king of agreement between the arabs and the jews. I don't think the war will break out this summer between Iran and Israel. He has done some pretty incredible things before, and I am sure this one is not out of his 'almost supernatural' capabilities. WE'll see...
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby mrgravyard49 on Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:00 pm

As for My vote I say something happens in America. I Pray I am wrong but If I understand it right bad things happen to the gentiles on the 1st of AV. No matter what August will be a Hugh month for Prophecy.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:02 pm

I don't think anything substantial will happen between Israel and a muslim country. Erdogan has been too busy---on the verge of confirming a covenant--maybe this fall, maybe the next two falls.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:14 pm

I believe itis likely that within a years time we will see an attack on Israel that will fulfill Isa 17 and Joel 1. I believe from Isa 17 and Joel 1 that this event occurs in the summer, possibly during the month of AV. Following this at a later time i believe the Gog-magog event will occur, which Joel 2 appears to suggest occurs around the time of the Day of Atonement (a holy fast, a sacred assembly) in the fall of a year.

Also in association with these events will be destruction visited on the US, as described in Isa 18. This destruction also appears to be associated with the month of AV, the month of the 'ripening grape', and continues through the summer and winter- 'the birds will feed on them all summer, the wild animals all winter'.

It would appear that some of the passages that describe the destruction of Damascus also associate destruction on one other place with this event, the destruction of a Babylon. This association appears to be made in Jer 49- 51 and Isa 13-18. And at this time it is the US who controls and rules over Babylon, the US is directly associated with the land of Babylon, which has never been the case in the past.

I believe the destruction of Damascus will be our first indicator of how events will transpire and when. Once Damascus is destroyed, the issue of the timing of Gog-Magog will be settled. I believe that once Damascus is destroyed Babylon will not have much time.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:42 pm

AC, i am not trying to misrepresent anything, i am just pointing out what the scripture states. Rev 19 clearly states that the AC is captured and cast alive into the Lake of Fire. The meaning is clear, no other interpretation is necessary. The same is true of Gog, he is clearly buried with his armies in Israel, no need for any other interpretation.

As far as the armies, Ezek lists only a limited number of nations being present at Gog-Magog, it is mainly a muslim force. At armageddon in Rev it is implied that all the nations of the earth are gathered to Israel, and this is directly stated in Zech 14 and Joel 3. According to those 3 passages it would appear that the massing point is a Megiddo, but the battle is fought at Jerusalem, when 'all nations' gather against Jerusalem, not just a few. (and Jerusalem is not even mentioned in Ezek 38-39) And Joel 3 describes this battle as occurring in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, which is believed to be outside of Jerusalem. And that the battle occurs at Jerusalem is confirmed in Zech 14 when Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives and then destroys the gathered nations, which is not described in Ezek 38 or 39.

Gog and his armies come against the mountains of Israel, no mention of Jerusalem is made, and they are killed on the mountains- 'on the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and your troops and the nations with you', and they are buried in the valley to the east. At armageddon all the nations are killed in the valley and the blood runs as high as the horses bridle, and according to Zech 14 the armies at armageddon are not buried they 'rot' where they stand, they dissolve.

Also after Gog, every Israeli is gathered back to the land of Israel by God. If Gog occurs at the middle of the week, around the time of the AOD, how is it possible for every Israeli to be regathered to the land when God is taking Israel to a place He has prepared in the wilderness for 1,260 days? There is no delay described in the regathering in Ezek 39, if Gog occurs during the early part of the GT Israel would be returning to the land when Satan is trying to destroy Israel. Also Israel would be cleansing the land and burying the bodies while being pursued by Satan, and likley the AC.

Considering the limitations of the condition of Israel before and after Gog, it appears unlikely that Gog can occur at any time during the latter half of the 70th week, Israel is in the wilderness for most if not all of that time, and not in the land or on the mountains of Israel. How could Gog attack Israel in her land if Israel is not in her land? How can Israel return to her land when Satan is trying to destroy her and she is being protected in the wilderness?

The details tell the story and rule out Gog as occurring any time after the 1st half of the 70th week.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Seeker on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:14 am

Hi good4u,

Yes I fall into the Post-trib camp. I may view things slightly different than most though. I believe we will be here not only to witness the tribulation but also God's wrath. We will witness His wrath but not be subjected to it. We will be protected as Noah, Lot, and the Israelies in Egypt were while wrath rained down around them. I believe the bible clearly shows that we will be here until the last day.

As far as war with Iran vs Israel this summer. That may be but Israel will not wipe Iran out because Iran has a destiny for the Gog war as Persia. To be in the Gog war Iran will have to survive until then. The Gog war will be preceded by a time of peace and safety in Israel. Israel is not currently dwelling in safety as Eze 38 describes.

Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
Eze 38:13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
Eze 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:


So before we can see the Gog war we will first have to see Israel dwelling safely without bars or gates. The wall will have to come down I believe prior to Eze 38. There will have to be a peace agreement with the neighboring muslims before Israel feels safe enough to be described as dwelling safely without walls, bars, or gates. Watch Turkey she is making great strides toward peace between Israel and her muslim enemies. That peace will likely be a comprehensive middle-east peace if Turkey continues to bring the two sides together. For years Turkey has been talking of a comprehensive treaty for the middle-east involving all the enemies of Israel in the middle-east. Meshech and Tubal were located in modern Turkey. Gog is chief prince of what we know as Turkey. Turkey is currently strengthening ties with Iran (Persia) in many arenas including militarily. The president of Sudan (ancient Ethiopia) will be in Turkey in August for an African summit to increase trade and co-operation with Africa. The players are lining up as we speak. So yes time is short but not imminent, we must see peace in Israel first to set up the conditions described in Eze 38.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:38 am

1whowaits,

You are clearly misunderstanding my view of Ezekiel 38-39.

Ezekiel 38 is about the first half of the 70th week, the attack at the midpoint of the 70th week, and the judgments by God (trumpets of Revelation).

Ezekiel 39 is mainly about Armageddon.

You keep lumping Ezekiel 38-39 as though they describe the same event. They do not; they cover the period of the 70th week--numerous events.

---------------------------

"Gog and his armies come against the mountains of Israel, no mention of Jerusalem is made, and they are killed on the mountains- 'on the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and your troops and the nations with you', and they are buried in the valley to the east."


Isa 34:3 So their slain will be thrown out, And their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched with their blood.


"At armageddon all the nations are killed in the valley ..."

The valley of Meggido is not the only place where Christ slaughters....

Isa 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah, This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength? "It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
Isa 63:2 Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
Isa 63:3 "I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment.
Isa 63:4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come.
Isa 63:5 "I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me.
Isa 63:6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger And made them drunk in My wrath, And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."


you are also assuming the blood up to the horses bridle is speaking of the valley of Meggido:


Rev 14:20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Seeker on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:46 am

Hi 1whowaits,

Yes it is all a bit confusing so that is why I take so much time trying to show you what it really says...lol...j/k

Seeker, actually in Dan 7 it would appear that the AC is the little horn that speaks boastfully, that is the clue that it is the AC (from Rev 13- given a mouth to utter proud words...). It would appear that the beast that is killed is the kingdom of the horn (AC), and the other kingdoms are referred to as 'beasts'. It is a little confusing, in Rev the AC is called the beast and he is thrown into the fire, in Dan the AC is a horn and his kingdom is thrown into the fire.


Many people don't read Daniel carefully. Let's see what Dan 7 says the "beasts" are.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

What is difficult to see there? The beasts are four kings simple. Each beast represents one king.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This is the 4th beast which is defined by scripture as the 4th king. Kings are mortals and have bodies. This king is also the AC. The AC's body is said to be slain, destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Now how can it be given to the burning flame after it is destroyed? Impossible so it must be his soul that is given to the flame. Now that makes sense because we know that men die and their souls leave their bodies. Most won't be thrown into the pit until after the white throne judgment. The AC and FP however go straight there upon their death. That is what it means.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

See the AC is there prior to Satan. Dan 7 shows the AC slain. Let me show you another example where the AC is not thrown directly into the lake of fire.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This shows the AC destroyed with the brightness of the arrival of Jesus. This is also clearly referring to the AC. The language in Rev 19 indicates that they are thrown into the lake of fire immediately at their death because they are already there when Satan is thrown in 1,000 years later. That is the only way I can see to reconcile the differing accounts involving the death of the AC. But there are clear examples of his death prior to being thrown into eternal damnation in the lake of fire. Both must be true. The only explanation that covers both is that it is their souls are thrown in the lake of fire. Every human has to die once and then face judgment. In the case of the AC his judgment is carried out at his death.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:48 am

Great explanation, seeker!
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby mark s on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:00 am

Seeker wrote:
Many people don't read Daniel carefully. Let's see what Dan 7 says the "beasts" are.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

What is difficult to see there? The beasts are four kings simple. Each beast represents one king.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.



There's a little more to it than that. You need to keep reading . . .

Dan 7:23 And he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour all the earth, and shall trample it down and crush it.

. . . kings and kingdoms . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Seeker on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:43 am

Hi Mark,

Yes I agree totally but did not want to confuse the issue in the above argument. The verse describing being slain is in reference to the actual leader or king. This individual, who is human, is thrown into the fire. Every kingdom by definition is led by a king. Dan 2 shows a clear reference to Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold for kingdom number one. Common sense tells us that since Nebuch led Babylon, Babylon is kingdom number one. This scripture however is a reference to a human being slain not a kingdom.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Dan 7:28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.


When we read the interpretation given to us by the Lord it is clear we are talking about a man..ie the AC.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


The horn itself is a man as evident by scripture. The only other reference to beast is toward Satan in this context. But we know this is not Satan because Satan isn't thrown into the fire until after the great white throne judgment. Real estate doesn't get tossed into the lake of fire as in kingdoms. Men's souls get tossed in the lake of fire. The horn is part of the beast just as Nebuch was part of the first beast. Only men's souls end up in the lake of fire. The mortal body wouldn't last a millisecond there. Every kingdom there has ever been has had a leader or king. But God is specifically speaking of the king here in Dan 7 if you read God's interpretation.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


The beast that is slain is human in Dan 7. Revelation portrays the beast as human as well. He is to be worshipped by men. He makes war with men and overcomes the saints for 42 months which matches the time the AC has in Dan 7 (3 1/2 years). He sits in the temple proclaiming to be God. These are human attributes for the beast. We have to consider all of scripture when we ponder these things. The bible is warning us of a human who will lead the last evil kingdom of earth. He is the beast who is slain in context of scripture. God gave us a clear example with Nebuch.

Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.


This 1st-4th are the same 1st-4th spoken of in Dan 7. The example given points to the king not the kingdom.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby mark s on Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:06 pm

The chest and arms of silver - are they the king, or kingdom?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:15 pm

Seeker, it does appear that the 4th beast of Daniel 7 is a kingdom and not a king, according to the context of the passage- 'He gave me this explanation; the fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth..the ten horns are 10 kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will come...' The 10 kings and the AC come from the 4th kingdom, they are not the kingdom, they are not the beast but its horns. If the 4th beast were the AC, then the horns, the kings and the AC, would come from....the AC, which does not make sense. (unless the AC were an amoeba)

In this case the beast is not the AC, the beast is a kingdom and the AC is a horn, as the passage indicates. The AC is a part of the beast but he is not the beast in Dan 7. But he is the beast in Rev, go figure.

Daniel 7 describes the 10 kings and the AC, the 10 horns and the little horn, coming from the beast, the horns are described as seprate entities from the beast, the AC is not the beast but a horn on the beast. The beast is killed and thrown into the fire, which does not necessarily mean the beast is thrown in the Lake of fire, but rather that the kingdom is destroyed by fire, which apparently will happen to Babylon- 'they will see the smoke of her burning..' Rev 18.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:34 pm

ACfromT, you are correct, i don't understand your view. So let me get this straight... you believe the entire 70th week is contained in Ezek 38 and 39? OK, so when Gog attacks Israel in Ezek 38 that is the middle of the 70th week? So Gog attacks Israel in the middle of the week, then Israel is taken into the wilderness by God and protected for the rest of the 70th week (1,260 days), right? So what happens to these Gog armies for 3.5 years while God is reigning down plague and bloodshed, burning sulfur and hail, which happens right after Gog attacks Israel? Are these not the same armies that are at armageddon when Jesus returns at the end of the week? So they just hang out for 3.5 years getting pelted and likely killed? Why would they still be attacking Israel if Israel is no longer in the land?

It would appear that if Gog attacks in the middle of the week, armageddon starts at the middle of the week, otherwise the armies would be destroyed before armageddon had a chance to occur. But Rev states that the AC has power for 42 months (3.5 years) and the AC meets his end at armageddon, according to Rev, so armageddon occurs at the end of the week. How is it that Gog Magog(armageddon) drags on for 3.5 years when Israel is not even in the land? How is it that it takes 3.5 years for God to finish off Gog's armies? Jus trying to get a handle on your view.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Seeker on Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:27 am

Hi Mark,

The chest and arms of silver - are they the king, or kingdom?


A kingdom by definition cannot exist without a king. The king rules over the kingdom. That is why the word king is in kingdom. In modern terms it would be ruler/nation. Kingdom's however do not get cast into the lake of fire, souls do.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This either has to be Satan or the AC. It can't be Satan because the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire when Satan is thrown in after the 1,000 years. This is not referring to a kingdom in Dan 7:11 it is a man, namely the AC but you seem not to be able to see it. Maybe with time it will be clear to you. Here even in Dan 2 it discusses the kings also. The warning is about an evil tyrant that will lead a kingdom against everything of God.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

What kings are these? These are the 10 kings and AC that lead the 4th kingdom. The real estate of the 4th kingdom is just dirt, the AC is the driving force and whom we are warned about. The AC is who Christ returns to defeat. It is him that demands worship and speaks boastful things against the Lord. The lesson of Dan 2 and 7 is about the evil man who heads the 4th kingdom. Dan 7 is quite clear as to the nature of the beasts.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.


Daniel asks for and is given "the" interpretation. The very first thing that he is told is that these four beasts represent four kings that will arise out of the earth. It isn't my interpretation, it is the interpretation provided by the Lord and it specifically says that the four beasts are four kings. Anyway I will stick with the interpretation God gives.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:56 pm

Actually the scripture uses 2 terms as describing the beasts, in Daniel 7:17 the word is 'Melek' or 'king', but in vs 23 the word is 'Melhuw' or 'kingdom'. It appears that scripture uses the term interchangably, it calls the 4th beast a 4th kingdom and also a king. So when Dan 7 : 11 states 'I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire', is the beast referring to the king or the kingdom?

It actually may not matter because the beast is not the AC, the AC is the horn described just prior to the beast-'I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain...' The scripture makes a point to differentiate between the 'beast', whether it be king or kingdom, and the AC, the little horn. It is the beast that is thrown into the fire.

The point is moot in any case, Rev clearly states that the AC is cast alive into the Lake of Fire, there is no question about the AC being alive when he is cast into the fire. There is no question that the AC is the little horn of Dan 7. There is a question on whether the beast of Dan 7 is referring to the king, the kingdom or both.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:16 pm

ON a side note, in my studies, I have leaned toward the understanding that the 'lake of fire' is a place reserved for spirits, the eternal part of a being, and in every case those are evil spirits which go to that place. Flesh and blood will return to the earth which it was made from (from the dust you were made, and to the dust you shall return).
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:15 pm

Saved, i used to think that also but now i am not so sure. Dan 12 implies that the unrighteous will be raised from the dead (multitudes who sleep in the dust will awake; some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.) and Jesus states this also in John 5 (a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned). And the first resurrection is called the 'first', implying that the second event is also a resurrection.

It would appear that the unrighteous dead will be raised from the dead, suggesting that they will not be just spirits when they are cast into the lake of fire, they may have eternal bodies that have been raised and then suffer for eternity.

It would appear that the unrighteous dead are 'raised' from the dead at the GWTJ, they are no longer dead but considered alive, otherwise they would not be 'raised', or they would still be asleep (dead). It would then appear that the unrighteous are cast 'alive' into the Lake of Fire, just like the AC and FP will be, which would be the second death, which is the term used for the Lake of Fire in Rev (it can't be a second death if they were not raised to life after the first death).
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:23 am

Hey 1whowaits,




Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,


I believe this is likely describing Israel during the 1st half of the 70th week though they could have been living in this condition prior to the 70th week due to a peace covenant with the AC confirming it to begin the 70th week.


-----------------------

Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:


Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


The attack in Ezekiel 38 describes the attack by Gog and the other muslim nations at the midpoint of the 70th week.

same period as this passage:




Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 ¶ Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

-------------------------------

Ezekiel 38 also describes the beginning of the day of the Lord (at the 6th seal--prewrath view) when God begins to pour out judgment through the trumpets and bowls:


Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.


-------------------

Ezekiel 39 then describes the end result of Gog and the nations after Armageddon has occurred. Ezekiel 38-39 gives us a glimpse of the whole of the 70th week beginning with the attack of Israel at the midpoint, the beginning of the day of the Lord, and the conclusion of the battle of Armageddon.

-----------------

Ezekiel 38-39 does not give us every single detail just like no other passage in Scripture gives us every single detail about the end times.

----------------
"you believe the entire 70th week is contained in Ezek 38 and 39? " Yes, but not all the details


"so when Gog attacks Israel in Ezek 38 that is the middle of the 70th week? " Yes, when the aod is set up

"So Gog attacks Israel in the middle of the week, then Israel is taken into the wilderness by God and protected for the rest of the 70th week (1,260 days), right?" Yes, but much of Israel is killed at the midpoint.

"So what happens to these Gog armies for 3.5 years while God is reigning down plague and bloodshed, burning sulfur and hail, which happens right after Gog attacks Israel?" What does the rest of Scripture tell us Gog (AC) is doing? The reigning down of judgments does not happen right after Gog attacks Israel--the focus of Ezekiel 38-39 is on God's redeeming Israel so we are not given the details of the tribulation period in these passages.

Eze 38:18 "It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," declares the Lord GOD, "that My fury will mount up in My anger.

"on that day" does not refer to the same 24 hour day that we think of but rather at that time (period of time)

The same exact word used for day here is used for day of the Lord which we know refers to more that a 24 hour period. The same word is also translated "time" in verse 17

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; [Art] thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel,


Transliteration
yowm

1) day, time, year



"Are these not the same armies that are at armageddon when Jesus returns at the end of the week?" With many added due to the spirits like frogs that went out to deceive the kings of the earth to gather to fight against Christ.


"So they just hang out for 3.5 years getting pelted and likely killed? " Not 3.5 years, remember we aren't given every detail in this passage alone.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


"Why would they still be attacking Israel if Israel is no longer in the land?" Where are we told they continue to attack Israel. They gather to attack Him who sits on the white horse, not Israel.



------------------------




I also want to point out that you make much of valley versus mountains, however the AC and his armies will fal on both as well as Gog and his armies:


Eze 39:4 "You will fall on the mountains of Israel...


Eze 39:5 "You will fall on the open field...

I hope this helps.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby IamtheWalrus on Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:02 am

1whowaits wrote:I believe itis likely that within a years time we will see an attack on Israel that will fulfill Isa 17 and Joel 1.

Wasn't Damascus Destroyed in 732 BC by the Babylonians?

This link is cached, so you can find where I have highlighted the date and city name.

LINK
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He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:18 pm

Walrus, although Damascus has been attacked in the past, it has never been unihabited as a city, which the article you point to on Wiki appears to confirm. Isa 17 states that Damascus will no longer be a city but become a heap of ruins, and this has not happened in the past. Therefore the fulfillment of Isa 17 does appear to be in the future.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Ready1 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:33 pm

I had a friend who was from Damascus, and his comment was that Damascus has been continuously inhabited for over 5,000 years. I never researched it, but he believed it.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:50 pm

ACfromT, thanks for the explanation. My problem with the 'Gog attacks at the middle of the week' theory is that God appears to reign down destruction on Gog right at the time of the attack. Gog and his armies would then be killed at that time or otherwise God apparently does not use enough force, which would not appear to be the case. It does appear from a straightforward reading of Ezek that Gog is destroyed as soon as he attacks, there is no drawn out battle because the battle is with God and it is decisive.

If Gog and his armies attack at the middle of the week then they are destroyed at the middle of the week, and then Israel must go out and bury the bodies during the latter half of the 70th week, which would not be possible as they are in the wilderness. Also Israel would be regathered to the land immediately after Gog, which also would appear to be impossible during the latter half of the 70th week when Satan is trying to kill Israel.

Also, when the DOTL is discussed in Joel 3 and Zech 14, it is placed at the time of armageddon, which occurs at the end of the week. Although the DOTL continues for an extended period of time, likely 1,000 years, there is no indication that it begins before armageddon, which occurs at the end of the week. Jesus also places the DOTL at the end of the week, after the time of distress, in Matt 24.

The DOTL and armageddon are associated together in Joel 3 and Zech 14. The AC has power for 42 months and meets his end at armageddon, according to Rev. There is no evidence that armageddon is a long drawn out battle that occurs before Jesus sets foot on the earth, in fact armageddon is associated directly with Jesus' return to Jerusalem in Zech 14 and His setting foot on the mount. Also, Rev 16 states the armies gather for armageddon at the end of the bowls, which would appear to occur at the end of the week.

There is no evidence of a long, drawn out battle during the latter half of the 70th week. Armageddon occurs at the end of the week, making it highly unlikely that Gog-Magog begins at the middle of the week and is part of armageddon at the end of the week, it is not plausible that the battle goes on for the entire latter half of the 70th week.

Also, i make note of Gog occuring on the 'mountains' while armageddon occurs in the 'valley' because this is how the scripture describes the battles. Joel 3 makes a point of stating that the battle will occur in the Valley of Jehoshaphat outside of Jerusalem, while Ezek states that Gog comes against the mountains with no mention of Jerusalem. It is the scripture that points out a difference it the way it describes the battles. I would agree it is likely that the armies at both battles die on mountains and valleys, but is is the scripture that chooses to make a point of differentiation.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:01 pm

Hey 1whowaits,

The DOTL begins with the sign in the sun, moon, and stars at the 6th seal. This is well before Armageddon. If you are post-trib then that would start a whole other debate that I'm not willing to put much energy into.

I guess we differ on when God begins to pour out judgment on Gog and his hordes and if those judgments immediately kill Gog and his hordes.

I believe Ezekiel 38-39 lines up perfectly with the rest of Scripture regarding the end times so I thus read it as such...

There is way too much to get around by placing these passages at any other time.

The AC attacks at the midpoint of the 70th week, sometime later Christ shows up and begins pouring out judgments with Armageddon occurring and the end of the week...no different than Gog.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:29 pm

AC, yes i am coming from a post-trib perspective which would explain some of the differences in our views. And i don't see how ezek is consistent with the entire 70th week.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:41 am

Mat 27:5 And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.

Act 1:18 (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.


These seemingly unreconcilable descriptions of the death of Judas Iscariot are still both true even if we may not be able to make sense of them. Knowing they are true and it being in the past we can come up with possible explanations; however, had we read this about the future death of a person...we might likely say they are two different people...

I point this out to say you can't throw out Gog being the AC just because it seems like the accounts of their deaths are different.

Everything else in the passage of Ezekiel 38-39 lines up perfectly with the rest of Scripture in regards to the events of the 70th week and the AC.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:44 pm

AC, the example of the possible difference in the account of the death of Judas is based on the scripture being somewhat vague. Judas falling in Acts could be consistent with his hanging himelf first and then falling from the tree (after being there a while and decomposing), the scripture is just not clear. The term for 'hanging' can also be interpreted as 'impaling', suggesting another possible explanation.

This is in contrast to the clear description of what happens to Gog vs the AC, Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave while the AC is cast alive into the LOF, there is no question about this. And as this is the case, Gog and the AC cannot be the same person.

And while there are some definite similarities between Gog and armageddon, the list of differences is significant also, the death of the AC vs that of Gog only being 1 example of many. And not everything lines up, there is a big gap between Gog and armageddon if Gog occurs at the middle of the week, and Gog/AC would die at the middle of the week.

And there is a highly implausible delay between the return of Jesus in the clouds and His return to earth, if the 6th seal is the return of Jesus. Such a delay is described nowhere in scripture, in fact Zech 12-14 describes Jesus being seen by Israel and then returning to the earth at armageddon with no delay described.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:27 am

1ww, maybe the delay is between the time of the SIGN of His coming, and the time that He Himself is seen in a cloud coming. Kind of like if a UFO were coming to earth, a very large UFO the size of a city. We would see it coming from far off, and there would be delay before it would get close enough to earth to see a person in a cloud coming with it.

Matthew 24:30

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:58 pm

EC, i guess i am trying to visualize how the sequence of events will occur in real time as real events. Each of us may interpret the sequence of events a little differently, but at some point one has to step back and look at the sequence and ask, does this really make sense? Does the rest of scripture describe this? If my interpretation makes this a bit off from what appears in the rest of scripture is there another interpretation that makes more sense?

Jesus coming at the 6th seal is an example of this. Does it really make sense that Jesus comes in the clouds early in the latter half of the 70th week and then just waits around for 3 or more years? Does it make sense that Jesus comes and goes between the earth and heaven several times during the latter half of the 70th week (ie multiple returns) before He finally stays on the earth at armageddon?

IMO this does not make sense and it does not appear to be what the rest of scripture portrays. In the OT, in Joel 3 and Zech 14 when Jesus returns He stays and that time is called the DOTL. When Jesus and Paul describe Jesus' return they do describe it as one event, not multiple events or a prolonged event occurring over years. Jesus and Paul both relate the gathering and the DOTL together, and Jesus says he comes like a thief as the armies gather for armageddon at the end of the week.

Sometimes, in order to make sense of a passage of scripture, such as the 6th seal, we look at the passage from only one perspective even though the resulting sequence doesn't really make sense or even seem plausible. Sometimes we need to look from more than one perspective to see what really makes sense, in the case of the 6th seal could the seals, trumpets and bowls occur somewhat in parallel? If that were the case the 6th seal would occur at the end of the 70th week, at armageddon, which would make more sense and it would be plausible as Jesus would return one time and stay at the end of the week.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:46 am

1whowaits,

What makes you think Jesus comes back during the first part of the latter half of the 70th week in the prewrath view? I tend to think there will be about a year or less left of the 70th week when the 6th seal events occur. I also tend to believe He comes to earth well before Armageddon. He goes to fight in Edom and Bozrah before Armageddon.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:07 pm

Hello ACfromTurkey, I believe 1whowaits is as post-trib as they come. I don't know, maybe you misunderstood something in one of his posts?
:grin:
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:32 pm

Hey savedbygrace,

Yeah I got that! Part of his argument against a 6th seal coming was Jesus "hovering" for 3 or more years. I was just pointing out that most prewrathers I know (including myself) think the second coming will be much later in the second half of the 70th week. I don't like taking the time to debate posttrib versus prewrath since they are both aware we will face the greatest time of trial ever and both believe we will be protected from the wrath of God...just protected in differing ways.

I also just want to say that this board with its discussions and many truth seeking believers has been such a blessing over the last 5 years.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:23 pm

5 years? Wow, have you been lurking for that long before you started posting?
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:09 pm

1ww, I agree, I'm not expecting the rapture to be around the middle of the 70th week... I think it'll probably happen towards the end, when the 2 witnesses are raptured.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:31 am

Hey savedbygrace,

No, formerly njfish17 and then njfishwatchTurkey&Israel, and now ACfrom Turkey.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:00 am

Hey so thats where you went! I was wondering what happened to you! ACfromTurkey... nice to see you posting again!
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:55 pm

NJ, is that you? I thought you were some new guy and i was trying to see which way your view went ( i should have got a clue from the 'AC from Turkey' name). From what i understand about pre-wrath, the views on the time that Jesus comes in the clouds varies from occurring 30 or more days after the AOD (Phillip has this view i believe) to at least 6 months prior to the end of the week (5th trumpet - 5 months).

I am not hard core post-trib which believes everything happens in a 24 hour period when Jesus returns. I would agree with pre-wrath that there can be a delay from the time Jesus is seen in the clouds until the time He sets foot on the earth at armageddon. I see that time as being shorter than 5 months, because the sequence of the return appears to follow that of the fall feasts which are still to be fulfilled. The return in the clouds would appear to be consistent with the Feast of Trumpets while the setting foot on the earth at armageddon would appear to be consistent with the Day of Atonement 10 days later.

But you are correct, the difference between our post-trib and pre-wrath views is quite minor.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:05 pm

Hey guys, yes it is nj. I got disciplined for a little while then there was trouble getting logged back on so I just reregistered with a different name.

"The return in the clouds would appear to be consistent with the Feast of Trumpets while the setting foot on the earth at armageddon would appear to be consistent with the Day of Atonement 10 days later."

I believe He sets foot on earth well before Armageddon. For one, He is described on a white horse at Armageddon, but we know His return will be as when He left--Acts 1. Secondly, He is described in Isaiah as coming from Edom and Bozrah with blood stained clothes from fighting---thus the red garment at Armageddon.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby savedbygrace on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:13 pm

:welcome: to the board, NJ!!!

good to have you back :mrgreen:
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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