Gog to come this year to Israel??????

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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:09 pm

NJ, OK, good to have you back. I look at Rev 19, Joel 3, Zech 14 and Isa 63 as describing the same event, Jesus returning to the earth at armageddon. In Rev 19 Jesus returns on horseback but He then 'treads the winepress', in Zech 14 he sets foot on the mount of Olives and it splits, in Isa 63 He 'strides forward in the greatness of his strength' and He tramples the nations, and in Joel 3 He 'tramples' the grapes. It would appear likely that although Jesus returns from heaven on horseback as described in Rev 19, He then dismounts and 'tramples' the nations, and His feet literally touch the ground on the mount and cause it to split.

Also in Rev 19 Jesus' robe is 'dipped' in blood, while in Isa 63 the blood of the trampled nations 'spatters' his garments and 'all' His clothing is stained. In Rev 19 it is not clear whether the 'dipped' in blood refers to His own atoning blood (more likely as He has not trampled the nations at that point, He is on horseback), or to the nations blood (less likely as their blood stains all His clothes, more extensively than being 'dipped').

The most detailed sequence of this event appears to be Zech 14. In Zech Jesus returns, presumably from the clouds as He apparently has not set foot on the earth yet, and He does literally set foot on the Mount of Olives. Jesus protects and delivers Israel first at armageddon, Israel flees by the valley created by the mountain splitting, and Zech 12 also suggests that Jesus protects Judah and Jerusalem first (the Lord will save the dwelling of Judah first..on that day the Lord will sheild those who live in Jerusalem...), and then He begins His attack on the nations, the trampling of the grapes then begins.

From Zech it would appear that Jesus' attack begins at Jerusalem, after He protects Judah and Jerusalem. Isa 63 describes Jesus returning from Bozrah and Edom, east of Jerusalem by several miles, but it would appear that the trampling has already occurred at that point. It would appear that the trampling does not begin at Bozrah, it ends at Bozrah, Jesus is coming from Bozrah and Edom with His garments already stained. This would make sense as there are likely 250 million + armies gathered for armageddon, and that amount of troops would likely extend several miles out away from Jerusalem, not all of the armies could fit in the area immediately around Jerusalem, Jesus would have to do several miles of trampling.


The first description of Jesus setting foot on the earth is at armageddon, according to Zech 14. In Zech 12 Israel sees Jesus (and they will look on me....)prior to His setting foot on the mount at armageddon, and then they mourn, a sequence consistent with Matt 24 (the nations will see Him coming in the clouds and they will mourn). From Zech 12 and 14 it would appear that Jesus is seen first (likely in the clouds as He has not set foot on the earth yet), Israel and the nations mourn, and Jesus then sets foot on the mount and the trampling begins.

This could be consistent with Jesus being seen in the clouds first and Israel seeing Him and mourning for Him, at the feast of trumpets ( after which comes the sabbath of turning- return O Israel...), followed by the Day of Atonement, the day of judgement (apparently referred to at the 7th seal and 7th trumpet), 10 days later.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby SueAnn on Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:56 pm

1whowaits wrote:NJ, OK, good to have you back. I look at Rev 19, Joel 3, Zech 14 and Isa 63 as describing the same event, Jesus returning to the earth at armageddon. In Rev 19 Jesus returns on horseback but He then 'treads the winepress', in Zech 14 he sets foot on the mount of Olives and it splits, in Isa 63 He 'strides forward in the greatness of his strength' and He tramples the nations, and in Joel 3 He 'tramples' the grapes. It would appear likely that although Jesus returns from heaven on horseback as described in Rev 19, He then dismounts and 'tramples' the nations, and His feet literally touch the ground on the mount and cause it to split.

Also in Rev 19 Jesus' robe is 'dipped' in blood, while in Isa 63 the blood of the trampled nations 'spatters' his garments and 'all' His clothing is stained. In Rev 19 it is not clear whether the 'dipped' in blood refers to His own atoning blood (more likely as He has not trampled the nations at that point, He is on horseback), or to the nations blood (less likely as their blood stains all His clothes, more extensively than being 'dipped').

The most detailed sequence of this event appears to be Zech 14. In Zech Jesus returns, presumably from the clouds as He apparently has not set foot on the earth yet, and He does literally set foot on the Mount of Olives. Jesus protects and delivers Israel first at armageddon, Israel flees by the valley created by the mountain splitting, and Zech 12 also suggests that Jesus protects Judah and Jerusalem first (the Lord will save the dwelling of Judah first..on that day the Lord will sheild those who live in Jerusalem...), and then He begins His attack on the nations, the trampling of the grapes then begins.

From Zech it would appear that Jesus' attack begins at Jerusalem, after He protects Judah and Jerusalem. Isa 63 describes Jesus returning from Bozrah and Edom, east of Jerusalem by several miles, but it would appear that the trampling has already occurred at that point. It would appear that the trampling does not begin at Bozrah, it ends at Bozrah, Jesus is coming from Bozrah and Edom with His garments already stained. This would make sense as there are likely 250 million + armies gathered for armageddon, and that amount of troops would likely extend several miles out away from Jerusalem, not all of the armies could fit in the area immediately around Jerusalem, Jesus would have to do several miles of trampling.


The first description of Jesus setting foot on the earth is at armageddon, according to Zech 14. In Zech 12 Israel sees Jesus (and they will look on me....)prior to His setting foot on the mount at armageddon, and then they mourn, a sequence consistent with Matt 24 (the nations will see Him coming in the clouds and they will mourn). From Zech 12 and 14 it would appear that Jesus is seen first (likely in the clouds as He has not set foot on the earth yet), Israel and the nations mourn, and Jesus then sets foot on the mount and the trampling begins.

This could be consistent with Jesus being seen in the clouds first and Israel seeing Him and mourning for Him, at the feast of trumpets ( after which comes the sabbath of turning- return O Israel...), followed by the Day of Atonement, the day of judgement (apparently referred to at the 7th seal and 7th trumpet), 10 days later.


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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:21 pm

Thanks, Sueann, but just trying to piece together the scripture to get a better picture of what God plans, which is what we all are really attempting to do.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:05 am

Jesus does not come on a white horse.


Act 1:9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
Act 1:11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."


Jesus will come in the same way, manner, fashion that He left. He was lifted up and a cloud received Him out of sight. He will come with the clouds in the same manner.

People's presuppositions about Revelation 19 and the description of Christ on a white horse cause them to confuse that event with His second coming.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:25 pm

NJ/ACFT,it would appear that the second coming and armageddon are associated as occurring together in scripture.

Rev 19 describes Jesus returning to the earth with the saints, where He destroys 'all nation' gathered, He 'tramples the grapes', and he then rules for the millenium.

Joel 3 describes Jesus returning (the Lord roaring from Zion) destroying 'all nations' gathered, He tramples the grapes, and the millenium is described.

Zech 14 describes Jesus returning to earth with His 'holy ones' to destroy 'all nations' gathered, and then He rules from Jerusalem for the millenium.

All 3 passages are consistent with the return to the earth at armageddon, when 'all nations' are gathered, and Jesus sets foot on the earth and 'tramples' the grapes. And Rev 19 describes Jesus on horseback while Zech 14 describes Jesus on foot, suggesting that Jesus dismounts after arriving and sets foot directly on the mount.

But Zech 12 describes Jesus being seen by Israel (they shall look on me, the one they have pierced) when 'all nations' are gathered, prior to Jesus setting foot on the mount. In Zech 12 Jesus is 'seen' before setting foot on the earth in Zech 14, but it is still in association with 'all nations' being gathered to Jerusalem at armageddon.

And in Zech 12, Jesus is 'seen' by Israel, and Israel mourns for Him, which would be consistent with Matt 24 in which Jesus is seen in the clouds, prior to setting foot on the earth (He will return in the way He left), and the nations mourn.

Zech 12 and 14 both appear to be associated with armageddon when 'all nations' are gathered to Israel/ Jerusalem. And Zech 12 appears to describe Jesus being 'seen' prior to setting foot on the earth, which is described in Zech 14, apparently connecting the return in the clouds when He is 'seen' (Zech 12, Matt 24), with the return to the earth at armageddon (Rev 19, Zech 14, Joel 3), when He sets foot on the mount.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby ACfrom Turkey on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:46 pm

If you say so.....

Those passages do not describe Jesus' coming at that time as you suggest. Revelation 19 says nothing about Jesus' coming at that time. People just read that into the passage. His coming as defined by numerous other passages do not align with the event described in Revelation 19.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:09 pm

NJ, i was attempting to demonstrate the the coming in Rev 19 does parallel the descriptions of Jesus' coming in Zech 14 and Joel 3, Jesus is definitely coming to earth in Rev 19 and He then reigns for 1,000 years. Armageddon, as described in Rev 19, Zech 14 and Joel 3 is the definitive return of Jesus to the earth and is clearly described as such. His coming at any other time would be a reading into the passage.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby LastDaysBroadcast on Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:25 pm

ACfrom Turkey wrote:If you say so.....

Those passages do not describe Jesus' coming at that time as you suggest. Revelation 19 says nothing about Jesus' coming at that time. People just read that into the passage. His coming as defined by numerous other passages do not align with the event described in Revelation 19.


:whaa: SO ACfT - exactly what is Revelation 19 describing?
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby CaryC on Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:53 am

Hey,

Was wondering if anyone was considering changing their opinion since the invasion of Georgia by Russia?

Would also like to call y'alls attention to Josephus who was a first century "Jewish historian", who had no Christian end times eschatology/philosophy/doctrine that he was promoting or pushing.

Josephus, Book I CHAPTER 6
HOW EVERY NATION WAS DENOMINATED FROM THEIR FIRST INHABITANTS.

Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians.


Who were the ancient Scythians? From Wiki:

The Scythians or Scyths[1] were a nation of horse-riding nomadic pastoralists originally of Iranian stock,[2][3] who dominated the Pontic steppe throughout Classical Antiquity. By Late Antiquity the closely-related Sarmatians came to dominate the Scyths in this area. Much of the surviving information about the Scyths comes from the Greek historian Herodotus (c. 440 BC) in his Histories, and archaeologically from the exquisite goldwork found in Scythian burial mounds in Ukraine and Southern Russia.

The name "Scythian" has also been used to refer to various peoples seen as similar to the Scythians, or who lived anywhere in a vast area covering present-day Ukraine, Russia and Central Asia — known until medieval times as Scythia.[4] The name was also used among early scholars studying the Proto Indo-Europeans, and within the framework of the Kurgan hypothesis the Scythians are considered a reasonable analogue for their Proto Indo-European ancestors.


Here's the link to the article, which has a map with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

Please note on the map that the Scythians southern border is present day Georgia's southern border. Interesting No?

I just submit this for your information, not a debate.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby vgoghsear on Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:14 pm

Maybe this is an easy way to separate the AC from Gog. God will control Gog by turning him around and drag him along. Whereas Lucifer will control the AC. Yeah I understand that the AC will not be controled until after he rises from his head wound but it doesn't makes sence that God and Lucifer would control the same being rather separately or not. Plus God says He will give Gog a burial place in israel. God will not let Lucifer undo what he has done.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby good4u on Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:44 am

Indeed, Middle Eastern thinking is waaaaay more relevant to our understanding of biblical eschatology than I had ever thought before and confirms a lot of the Bible. It is actually eerie to see this before your very eyes. At any rate, I also agree that Gog is not the same person as the biblical AC. Tho' many good biblical students do disagree. Ah, to each their own.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:47 am

1whowaits wrote:Many of us look at the 2015 date as a possible endpoint for the 70th week, suggesting that the 70th week could begin this fall. But while the scripture describes a 70th week or a 7 year period, that period of time does not have to be exactly 7 years. In the eastern mind, 6 years + 1 day can be considered 7 years, that 1day is part of the 7th year period and is considered separate from the 6 years (in the same way Jesus could have been crucified on Fri and resurrected on Sun and still be 3 days in the earth, partial periods can be seen as complete days or years).


That's interesting. Could this verse give reference to a less than 7 year, 70th week?

Daniel 8:14
And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”


I did the math, and 2,300 days = 6.3 years.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:53 am

1WW, do you believe there is any indication of what season Jesus may return in, during the year 2015?
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:38 pm

1whowaits wrote: Jesus also said the days would be shortened, which could apply to the entire period of the 70th week, not just the latter half of the 70th week, which has specific numbers of days to be fulfilled (the first half could be shorter, not necessarily the latter half)


How would you shorten the first half of the week? Maybe a catastrophic event would be scheduled to trigger the 7 year treaty, but through the grace of God, that event may get postponed? :dunno:

But then again, Matthew 24:22
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
Seems to point to a shortening of length from the latter end. Right?
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:19 pm

EC, it appears likely that Jesus will return in the fall of the year that armageddon occurs. As Jesus fulfilled the first 4 appointed feasts at His first coming, it is likely that He will fulfill the last 3 appointed feasts, the fall feasts, at His second coming.

If Jesus does return at the fall feasts at the end of the 70th week, one might expect something to occur 7 years prior to that time, around the same time of the year. And it does appear that Joel 2, which describes an attack on Israel by a northern army consistent with Gog-Magog, describes the attack in association with what is consistent with the Day of Atonement, one of the fall appointed feasts.

As Gog-Magog may occur on a fall feast and has a 7 year period described as following it, Gog-magog could oocur 7 years prior to the Day of Atonement when Jesus sets foot on the earth at armageddon.

This is speculation only, but if Jesus did return on the DOA in 2015, which could be the beginning of the Year of Jubilee, there are some interesting calculations to consider.

The Day of Atonement in 2015 falls on Sept 23, and 7 years prior to that date in 2008, the DOA falls on Oct 9 of this year. Theoretically Gog-Magog could occur on this date, but again this is speculation.

It does appear that God is using a 360 day/ year calendar as 1,260 days= 3.5 years in Rev. (a similar calendar alluded to during the flood in Gen.) Based on the 360 day calendar, 7 years would be a shorter period of time, 7 years prior to sept 23, 2015 would fall on 10/ 29/ 2008, 20 days after the theoretical date of the occurance of Gog-Magog. The 7 year period, based on the 360 day calendar (1,260 days x 2 = 2520 days) could start on Oct 29 of this year.

In a way this could make sense, the 'covenant with the many' might not be made until after Gog-Magog occurred and the whole world would see what God had done for Israel. Also in this calculation, the 7 year period could be shortened by more than 30 days, 7 years from Sept 2015 as we calculate would occur in September of 2008, but 7 years as God calculates it could begin on Oct 29th. It is not clear though what exact time period is shortened, but it would appear unlikely that the end of the 70th week would be shortened as there are specific time periods to be fulfilled.

If this theory were correct one might expect the times periods in scripture to inter-lock somewhat or occur sequentially. The longest period referred to in prophetic scripture, other than the 7 years of the 70th week, is the 2,300 days of Dan. 8. 2,300 days prior to 9/23/2015 would fall on 6/6/2009.

2,300 days is 220 days short of the theoretical 2,520 days of the 7 year 70th week. 220 days is actually 7 months on the 360 day calendar God appears to be using (220 -:- 30 = 7.3). And there is a 7 month period described in prophetic scripture that would fit if this theory were correct.

There is only one 7 month period described in prophetic scripture and that is the 7 months Israel cleanses the land after Gog-Magog in Ezek 39- 'For seven months the house of Israel will be burying then in order to cleanse the land.'

If Gog occurred in Oct of this year, there could be a delay after that battle of a few days before the burying of the dead began. If the burying began toward the end of that month, and Israel buried the dead for 7 months to 'cleanse the land, the 7 months of burying could end 2,300 days prior to the theortical end of the 70th week.

Also the use of the term of Israel 'cleansing the land' is interesting, it implies that OT rules are being followed. There were many OT rules for cleansing things, and the land around the temple had to always be ceremonially clean. The fact that Israel is cleansing the land after Gog could imply that Israel is preparing the land for the rebuilding of the temple.

Which is also what the 2,330 day period of Dan 8 appears to be refrring to- 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings, then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.' The 2,300 days appears to be referencing the reconsecration of the Temple, the sanctuary, which cannot even be rebuilt until the land is ceremonially cleansed with the ashes of the red heifer.

It may be possible that the 7 months following Gog in which the land is cleansed is in preparation for the rebuilding of the temple, which will not be reconsecrated until Jesus returns, 2,300 days later, after the cleansing is completed.

So the time periods may interlock, the 7 months following Gog-Magog, added to the 2,300 days of Dan 8, would complete the 2,520 days of the 70th week, theoretically. Which could man that Gog-magog could occur in a couple of months, which does appear more possible that it did a few weeks ago, but again i am just speculating.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:44 pm

How interesting. I hope you are wrong.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:08 pm

:dunno:
Last edited by extravagantchristian on Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby mrgravyard49 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:52 am

I would think this could be wrong because Isaiah 17 has not happen yet and Israel is NOT living feeling safe right now.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby Mttw633 on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:56 am

1whowaits wrote: It is not clear though what exact time period is shortened, but it would appear unlikely that the end of the 70th week would be shortened as there are specific time periods to be fulfilled.


The only time period that is cut short (for the sake of the elect) that fits in with scripture is a rapture.
Daniel 11:35
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Habakkuk 2:3
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Daniel 8:19
19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 11:27
27And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.




Daniel's 70-7 time oriented prophecy would be null and void if even one day was cut short. The cutting short of days is for the elect only.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:47 pm

oh, lol I'm a little slow. I misread that, I thought it said 9/23/08. I guess I won't panic quite as bad.
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Re: Gog to come this year to Israel??????

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:13 pm

EC, don't take all this seriously, i am just thinking out loud. I am just extrapolating the possible time line if 2015 does have some significance, which some believe is possible but which may not be true, nothing has happened to confirm it yet. Until we see a recognizable event from scripture, like the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, this is just theory. Don't get freaked out, just watch and wait and lean on the Lord.

Theoretically, if the 2015 date were accuruate, if Gog-magog does occur at the beginning of the 70th week, then Gog possibly could occur in October, but that is just theory. And right now, even with the events in Georgia and the ME, Gog occurring this year appears unlikely, much would appear to have to occur prior to that event.

It appears that Damascus is destroyed prior to Gog so that event would likely occur first, but it appears that the seeds may have already been sown for that event. And also some things in Ezek would have to be occurring prior to the Gog attack, it does appear that Turkey would have to be drawn into the alliance of Gog, which is not the case now, although Turkey now has a more muslim leaning government. Also the other nations described with Gog would have to join up, which actully could occur fairly quickly as these nations already don't like Israel.

And the alliance of nations with Gog would need some time to gather, although Joel 2 compares the armies with locusts possibly suggesting that the attack is with airborne and heliborne forces, which wouldn't necessarily take a whole lot of time.

Some other conditions prior to Gog appear to be in place now, Iran does appear to allied with Russia, and Georgia would be on the path south to Israel. Israel can be viewed as dwelling in security, and if Gog is from Russia, Gog could see Israel as a peaceful and unsuspecting people, so no peace treaty in Israel is necessary, from a certain perspective.

But still the US is in place serving as a big brake against Gog-Magog occurring, as long as things remain the same in the US, and in the world, Gog-Magog is unlikely to occur this year. As long as things remain the same......

Of course if things change the events could occur in rapid succession. If it is God's time for these events to occur they will occur on time, and as described in scripture.
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