Questions about Dan 7 and 8

by **onetumbleweed** on Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:18 am

I have a couple of questions about Daniel, where I am reading now. 
 
 
King James Version (KJV) Daniel - Chapt 
 
Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 
Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 
Dan 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. 
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns. 
 
King James Version (KJV) Daniel - Chapter 8 
 
Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. 
 
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great. 
 
Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat [had] a notable horn between his eyes. 
 
Dan 8:6 And he came to the ram that had [two] horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 
 
Dan 8:7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand. 
 
Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 
 
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land]. 
 
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 
 
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 
 
Dan 8:12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 
 
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 
 
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. 
 
Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision. 
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision. 
 
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. 
 
 
Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia. 
 
 
Dan 8:21 And the rough goat [is] the king of Grecia: and the great horn that [is] between his eyes [is] the first king. 
 
 
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 
 
 
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 
 
 
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 
 
 
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. 
 
 
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days. 
 
 
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick [certain] days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood [it].  
 
 
Who is the lion, the eagle, the leopard and the bear? Are these countries today or in the past? 
 
Who are Media Persia and Grecia? 
 
At first when I read this, I thought the ram sounded like the church. Also, I was looking in a study Bible and it seemed to indicate the one from Grecia represented Alexander the great. But if these verses pertain to the Last Days, isn't Alexander the Great a bit early?

by **orangemailman** on Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:43 pm

It would be good for you to correlate Daniel chapter 2 with these passages. There are four kingdoms mentioned there that correlate with the four kingdoms in Daniel 7. 
 
The Lion is Babylon. The giving of the man's heart to it is correlated with Daniel 4. 
 
The bear is Medo Persia which defeated Babylon. This is touched on in Daniel 5:28. In Daniel 6, it is Darius the Mede who is ruling because Babylon has been defeated. In the days of Ezra, it is Cyrus the Persian ruling, but the Medes were still a part of their kingdom, Ezra 6:2. 
 
The leopard is Greece (Grecia), which defeated Medo-Persia. 
 
The iron beast was certainly the Roman Empire who defeated Greece, but as you point out, many of these prophecies seem to describe an end times entity. This is why Herb and many others feel that this beast will come together again in what was once the Roman Empire. 
 
The notable horn in the vision of Daniel 8 was Alexander the Great. The little horn was a man named Antiochus Epiphanes, who desecrated the temple by sacrificing a pig on the altar. However, he was a pretty good "picture" of the antichrist that will come and desecrate the Jewish Temple during the final days. Some of those prophecies that apply to him could very easily apply to the one final antichrist, especially 23-25. 
 
Any ? 
 
Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13 
 
-The Orange Mailman

by **onetumbleweed** on Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:01 pm

Thanks, Orange! I'll have to go back and read the earlier chapters....I had read that about Epiphanes but didn't know who the others were except for A the G. What makes me think there is a definite last days connection is Dan 8:17...."Understand, O son of man" for at the time of the end shall be the vision" Doesn't this indicate it? 
 
could the lion, bear, eagle, etc, also be current countries?

by **orangemailman** on Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:12 pm

Good point. From Daniel's perspective, what end was he looking for? In Daniel 9 immediately following this vision, we see Daniel greatly looking forward to the end of his people's captivity. Could the angel Gabriel be saying that at the end of the captivity will be this vision? That would clearly place the dominance of Medo-Persia to be a sign that the seventy years had officially come to a close in God's eyes. 
 
But verse 19 seems to have an even greater connection to end times that can't be explained away by this kind of interpretation. Any way you slice it there has to be something in this prophecy that applies to the end that we are looking forward to today. 
 
The fulfillment of this vision in the kingdoms of Medo-Persia and Greece (and being fulfilled so accurately) caused all those in that day to count Daniel as a true prophet of God. All of his prophecies would be regarded as authentic. If they didn't come true during that day, surely God would fulfill them someday because no one could predict things to the extent that Daniel did by accident. 
 
Some of these details in here about the sacrifices, and the king of fierce countenance partially came true, but perhaps cast a shadow for us to see the picture of the end as well. The fact that "he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but shall be broken without hand" (vs. 25) has to be talking about the one final antichrist. The LORD used their partial fulfillment to prove to the people in Daniel's day his authenticity as a prophet, but left some of it to be fulfilled in our day. Now the problem for us is to wisely divide scripture to see which applies to Daniel's day, which applies to our day, and then perhaps some apply to both. 
 
Since I don't have all the answers, study hard. 
 
-The Orange Mailman

Questions about Dan 7 and 8

Questions about Dan 7 and 8

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