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Prophecy question

Postby RocColon on Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:28 am

Most prophecy scholars and teachers point to Ezekiel 38, 39 as the war of Gog & Magog, a war that breaks out before the armegedon conflict of Zecheriah 14. But on the reading of Ezekiel in 39:17-29, it speaks of "every kind of bird and wild animal assemble and come together...the great sacrifice on the mountians of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth..." . Very similar to Revelation 19:17,18. It seems like the same event. My question is why do they teach The War of Gog & Magog and Armegedon as 2 separete wars? Any one who can clarify, feel free. <p></p><i></i>
RocColon
 

Re: Prophecy Question

Postby Chris on Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:31 am

lol That's a good question. Personally, I believe that it's sometime before the Tribulation, but not necessarily before the Rapture (I'm pre-Trib). Of course, many others don't see it that way. <p><!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--><br>
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ezekiel 38/39

Postby njfish17 on Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:47 am

This is the best study that I have read regarding the timing of this passage of scripture. It is a segment taken from biblefragrances.com<br>
<br>
A MATTER OF TIMING<br>
The big question still unresolved in many minds, concerns the exact time placement for the Gog invasion which is described in Ezekiel 38 and 39.<br>
<br>
There are those who view this invasion as taking place prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, which is seven years in length. The main proof for such a theory is found at Ezekiel 39:9, where after the invading Northern army is defeated, the "booty" left behind will be burned for a period of seven years. Others believe that the invasion takes place immediately at the beginning of the seven-year period, viewing it as the reason the "world ruler" is able to come on the scene and establish a 7-year covenant in the Middle East. Once again, they use the seven years of burning the "booty" as proof for this. Others still, place this invasion at the midpoint of the 70th week and view it as the reason for the rise to power of the man of lawlessness (the antichrist) who breaks the 7-year covenant and will then seek to dominate the politics and economy of the world and reign for 42 months (3 1/2 years). Then there are those who view this invasion as taking place just before the final battle of Armageddon and has the alliance's defeat take place at that battle.<br>
<br>
Although the term, "Day of the Lord," does not occur in Ezekiel 38-39, the language indicates that this invasion can refer to none other than the king of the North as described in the other passages. Some have suggested that Ezekiel 38-39 refers to an invasion that precedes the Day of the Lord, however that cannot be in light of verse 39:7, "And I shall not let My Holy Name be profaned anymore." If this invasion refers to an army other than the one which invades DURING the Day of the Lord, then this verse would be violated, for during the Day of the Lord, through the advance of armies in connection with the Armageddon campaign, the land of Israel and God's Name will be trodden down by the invaders. Furthermore, the defeat of this Northern army is followed immediately by Israel's promotion and blessing in Messiah's kingdom.<br>
<br>
Ezek. 38:7-8,<br>
<br>
"Be prepared, and prepare yourself, you and all your companies that are assembled about you, and be a guard for them.<br>
<br>
"After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, {whose inhabitants} have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.<br>
<br>
This is another reason some think that the Gog invasion occurs "before" the 70th week and/or after the 70th week has started.<br>
<br>
It is suggested that if Israel has been restored from the sword and the people are living "securely," then it cannot refer to the time of Great tribulation when the beast will be attempting to force the world into beast worship. It is suggested that this refers to the nation of Israel, having been restored in 1948 and today existing on her own land.<br>
<br>
It is true, that at the present time, it can be said of Israel, that she has been restored from the sword of her captivity. However, even though Israel resides in the land, the nation as a whole is still in unbelief, and there is certainly no peace and security for her. Probably the best time for fulfillment of the language at verse 8, "and they are living securely, all of them," is when the covenant of peace is established at the beginning of the 70th week. Thus, it would seem appropriate to look for this invasion sometime during the first half of the week. However, this seems unlikely to me because of the language of "closure" at Ezek. 39:7, "And I shall not let My Holy Name be profaned any longer." If the defeat of this "Gog" army takes place during the first half of the week (or before) and is defeated as described in Ezekiel 38-39, then this "language of closure" forbids the oppression of the beast during the last half of the week, during which time, God's name most certainly will be profaned (Rev. 13:6; Dan. 7:25).<br>
<br>
It is for this reason that we must find a time slot for this invasion that is associated with the final movement of nations into the land of Palestine and the final confrontation with God at the battle of Armageddon.<br>
<br>
I suggest that at the midpoint of the week, after the beast gains ascendancy over Jerusalem (Rev. 11:2) and begins his oppressive reign (Rev. 13:5-6), that the majority of people in Jerusalem will be in alliance with the beast and therefore be "living securely, all of them."<br>
<br>
The "faithful" ones of Israel will have fled into the wilderness (Rev. 12:6, 13-14), and most of the others will have adopted beast worship and be reaping the economic benefits of allegiance to him.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
njfish17
 

Re: ezekiel 38/39

Postby RocColon on Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:56 am

Excellent, Ill study said Info. Thanks, may our Messiah King engulf you in his peace now & 4 eternity.<br>
In Christ..Roc <p></p><i></i>
RocColon
 

7 years - post battle

Postby Pretrib1 on Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:54 pm

To me the verses below speaking of 7 year period following God's victory would indicate the battle occurs at, or before, the start of the 7 year tribulation.<br>
<br>
Ezk 39:9 "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. <br>
<br>
10 They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them," says the Lord God. <p></p><i></i>
Pretrib1
 

Re: ezekiel 38/39

Postby orangemailman on Thu Jan 15, 2004 4:00 pm

The question in my mind, for a long time, was, “Is the prophecy Pre-Millennial or Post-Millennial?” West and other Historical Premillennialists put all of Ezekiel 38 and 39 after the millennium noting that “after many days” shows the passing of the 1000 years. Others, because of the language similarity with Armageddon, the pouring out of the spirit, and the putting away of Israel’s sins, put Ezekiel 38 and 39 before the millennium.<br>
<br>
My view: It is both. Certain aspects of the Gog and Magog prophecy will be fulfilled at the second advent, the rest will be fulfilled after the 1000 years are expired according to Revelation 20:7-9. If you study Ezekiel 38 and 39, you can see which sections are Pre-Millennial and which are Post-Millennial. <br>
<br>
The prophecy starts out before the millennium at the building up to the battle of Armageddon. Gog and his country Magog, are on the way (with their allies) to a great battle. (38:1-7) The LORD miraculously intervenes and turns him around. Then, West is correct when he states that “after many days ... in the latter years” is after the millennial kingdom. This time, starting in verse 8, the setting is different than at Armageddon. It has been a time of peace. The villages are unwalled. Gog devises an evil plan. Satan has been loosed and puts the evil thought into his mind. On his way up, nations are asking him what he’s doing. “Have you gathered your army to go and rob the Holy City?” As the people draw near to the mountains of Israel, the LORD is prepared to deal with them. The destruction in Ezekiel 38:22 is almost identical with Revelation 20:9.                <br>
<br>
Ezekiel 38:22 “And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.”<br>
Revelation 20:9 “...and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”<br>
<br>
This concludes the millennium. But, the prophecy continues. However, it picks up the premillennial language of 38:1-4. Now in Ezekiel 39 we have more details about what will happen when the LORD will turn them around at the battle of Armageddon. One sixth will be allowed to continue on to the battle to fall on the mountains of Israel. Five sixths will be turned back by the LORD. The LORD will draw on one sixth of them to be slaughtered at the battle of Armageddon. Then, chapter 39 is closed out with entirely premillennial prophecies, i.e. the birds eating the flesh of those slaughtered, the LORD explaining to Israel that it was for their sins that He chastised them, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. <br>
<br>
Story style. The kingdoms of the world are gathering together against the LORD and against His Messiah. Jesus is back and the response of the nations is, “Let’s kill him.” The ten nation alliance headed up by the man-god is closing in on Israel. The kings of the East with their 200,000,000 army on horseback is miraculously crossing the Euphrates River. [Since I believe the trumpets and bowls are concurrent, I can use the number here.] Also, from the far north, a mighty army advances. Magog being the main army, but with other countries in their alliance, (perhaps some from Africa), are headed up by one man. Before they get to the rendezvous point, the LORD supernaturally turns around all of the armies from the north except one sixth. Five sixths of them are turned around to go back home. <br>
<br>
One sixth of them are drawn on by the LORD to their doom. These self-proclaimed, great nations say, “We are strong, we can defeat this one nation of Israel.” One by one, the LORD Jesus smashes each nation, like a rod of iron smashing clay pots on a shelf. The rock cut without hands becomes a mountain and fills the whole earth ... but ... there’s this problem. One of the nations wasn’t completely dealt with at Armageddon. They never send delegates to Jerusalem to worship. They do not experience the blessings of the kingdom. After the thousand years, when Satan is loosed, he targets them first, knowing their contempt for the King. <br>
<br>
Another Gog arises and begins gathering the people to march on Israel again, as they did 1000 years before. This time, they think, we can defeat them. Before, some of us turned back and did not finish the march. If we all go up, we can do what we did not do before. They are unprotected, living in unwalled villages. We can easily take what we need from any of them. Before they can begin their attack, though, there is a great earthquake. The armies begin fighting and killing each other, and as they do, fire from heaven comes down to burn them to ashes. “Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.”<br>
<br>
So I agree with Mr. njfish 17 that the prophecy will be fulfilled at Armageddon itself and not at a separate battle, but also parts will be fulfilled after the Millennium, specifically Ezekiel 38:8-23.<br>
<br>
Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13 <p></p><i></i>
orangemailman
 

ezekiel 38/39

Postby sher777 on Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:04 pm

orangemailman, it just occured to me a couple of weeks that part of that prophecy was probably pre-millenniel and part post millenniel.<br>
<br>
It's interesting to see that viewpoint mentioned. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
<p></p><i></i>
sher777
 

time to go

Postby washere on Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:12 pm

My take,the last week is filled with to much to post.Israel is at peace because of the false covenant, the false Prince makes war while this is going on so are the two witnesses working,i believe witnessing to seal the 144,000,the north invades while the a/c executes all who do'nt worship him,all false religion is his he is center stage and says bring it on in Jerusalem,200 million man army marches to war.While all of this is going on Jehova is busy poring out wrath on all the earth.Man is scarce in the earth,few left.<br>
Christ reigns,1000 years,satan let loose,him and his buds are smoked outside the beloved city.A very busy 7 year period is comming up.Glad we wont be around.No wonder Daniel had a headache trying to write this down whit so much going on at the same time.Its layer upon layer.Till you see the whole picture.Peace <p></p><i></i>
washere
 

won't be here?

Postby njfish17 on Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:21 am

"A very busy 7 year period is comming up. Glad we wont be around." Just curious as to why you believe we won't be around? "We" being christians. 1 Thess. 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This event (the rapture) is in no way a secret event and occurs after the tribulation. The tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation, which occurs at the midpoint of the 7 years. The heavenly signs that occur in Matthew 24:29 are the same as the signs at the sixth seal of Rev. 6. Notice Paul speaks of the Day of the Lord and our being gathered to Him together in 2 Thess.2. The rapture occurs at some point (don't know the day or hour) after the beginning of tribulation (at abomination of desolation) and before the wrath of God is poured out through the trumpets and bowls. New Testament saints were expectant of Christ's return in their lifetime but not imminent. Notice the multitude which no one could count in Revelation 7- this is the church. With the deception and persecution and apostasy do you really believe that so many people will be saved during this time of tribulation that no man can count them? No where in scripture is the 7 year period called the tribulation. I'm sorry this post is so long, I just feel christians need to prepare spiritually so as to be willing to die for their faith as our predecessors. One more thing, notice the martyrs in the 5th seal, if the seals are during the 7 years would God make martyrs of His own, of course not..this is the wrath of Satan and Antichrist.<br>
<br>
Study hard!<br>
Nathan <p></p><i></i>
njfish17
 

clarification

Postby njfish17 on Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:31 am

Please allow me to recant one of my statements in the above post. When i said that if the seals occur during the seven years then God would be responsible for martyring His own, I meant that if the seals (first part of 7 year period) were the wrath of God then He would be responsible. The seals do occur during the 7 years...its just that this period is the wrath of Satan not God- God's wrath begins after the great tribulation. sorry for the misinformation due to negligence.<br>
<br>
Nathan <p></p><i></i>
njfish17
 

Re: clarification

Postby Shayla2 on Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:30 pm

I always thought that the last 31/2 years of the Great Tribulation was God's Judgement on the nations. If I am wrong, then when is God's judgement on the nations? <p></p><i></i>
Shayla2
 

Re: clarification

Postby mrshalfcent on Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:18 pm

Shayla,<br>
IMO, the wrath happens or at least the full wrath happens right after the two witnesses are taken up.<br>
everything before leads up to it...does that make sense?<br>
blessings<br>
laura <p><>< <>< <><<br>
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RE: When is Gog and Magog?

Postby 1withJesus on Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:26 am

I've often pondered on this same question concerning Ezekiel 38 & 39. What puzzles me is the specific mention (and lack of) the names of nations involved. Russia (Magog), Gog, leader of the Nation of Rosh (Russia), Meshech, and Tabul, along with Persia (Iran), Ethiopia, and Lybia. Gomer (Germany) and the house of Togarmah seems allied with Russia here too. All these specific nations come against Israel who at this time dwell safely.<br>
The reason I don't think this the Armeggedon scene is the lack of mention of the Kings of the East (China) who play a major role in the final battle. Also, Israel would not be dwelling in peace and safety at this time, but persued relentlessly.<br>
It seems that this event occurs shortly after the peace treaty is signed. Maybe Seal #2, the Red Horse of War.<br>
Just a thought.<br>
Jim. <p></p><i></i>
1withJesus
 

Re: RE: When is Gog and Magog?

Postby mrshalfcent on Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:53 am

orangmailman,<br>
I agree with your assessment that the Gog/Magog thing is two prophecies in one. <br>
I think Armeggedon is the first and the complete destruction of G/M is after the 1000 years.<br>
<br>
1withJesus,<br>
I think Ezekiel saw in part. Just as all the prophets did including Daniel. That is why it is important to read all the scriptures to gain the whole counsel of God.<br>
The Lord does not contradict but scripture interprets scripture and fills in the blanks as we study by reminding us of other passages that link together. Fun isn't it?<br>
But I think one good thing to remember in spite of all our speculation on some matters, the Spirit will reveal to us the fulfilling of certain prophecies as they are about to be or are being fulfilled before us. To me that keeps us sharp and alert.<br>
blessings<br>
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gogmagog when

Postby farmer on Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:46 am

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>complete destruction of G/M is after the 1000 years.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
I agree. Thats concludent with revelation 20, 7-10. <p></p><i></i>
farmer
 

shayla

Postby njfish17 on Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:55 am

God's judgement upon the nations is the trumpets,vials, and armegeddon which doesn't begin until Jesus shows up in the clouds. Rev.6 sixth seal-they cry out because the day of His wrath has come. when you look at Matthew 24 His appearing isn't until after the tribulation of those days. the tribulation of those days is not 3.5 years-we don't know how long it is because no one knows the day or hour of His appearing. However, the tribulation and God judging the nations(trumpets,vials,and armegeddon) is 3.5 years.(plus 75 days before the 1000 year reign.) <p></p><i></i>
njfish17
 

Re: shayla

Postby mrshalfcent on Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:31 pm

njfish17,<br>
where do you get 75 days before the 1000?<br>
I get 45 days if there is a gap....just wondered<br>
blessings<br>
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75 days

Postby njfish17 on Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:49 pm

There are 1,260 days in a 3.5 year period. Numerous passages regarding the second half of the 70th week refer to 1260 days. In Daniel 12, Daniel is told that there are 1290 days from the abomination and blessed is the one who keeps waiting and reaches the 1335 days. Those who reach the 1335 days enter the 1000 year reign of Christ. Many believe that the vials and armeggedon will occur in the 30 day period following the 70th week. They seem to have good reason for this though i haven't really done much study on it. And the 45 days is a time of cleansing before the 1000 year reign. <p></p><i></i>
njfish17
 

45 days

Postby onestarfisher on Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:42 pm

those 45 days (from 1290 to 1335) is kinda close to the 40 days it rained after Noah entered the ark...just thinking... <p></p><i></i>
onestarfisher
 


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