Wars and Rumors of War

[Ready1]

Any time that you see something that would qualify as a "war" or a "rumor of war" post it here with it's link.

I saw this this morning.

Azerbaijan, Armenia fight over disputed region as tanks destroyed, helicopters shot down.

Nagorno-Karabakh is a mainly ethnic Armenian region inside Azerbaijan which declared independence in 1991. Fighting broke out on Sunday between Armenia and Azerbaijan over a disputed separatist region, as two military helicopters were shot down and casualties in the area were reported.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/azerbaija ... helicopter

[keithareilly]

I think WWI and WWII are the best examples of wars and rumers of war, and nation rising against nation.

famine and earthquakes are next things listed.

I wonder how much fracking will impact increase in earthquakes.

With such a great rise in population, I suspect famine will be pretty bad.
Rose from 1 billion to 7 billion in 207 years.

8 Billion: 2023 (estimated)
7 Billion: 2011
6 Billion: 1999
5 Billion: 1987
4 Billion: 1974
3 Billion: 1960
2 Billion: 1930
1 Billion: 1804

[Ready1]

Jesus said

Mat 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled:

I guess I am not looking so much for things in the past, (although it is true that they contribute to the overall), but rather things that are current. I know that somebody will post regarding Syria, Libya, Iran and others as they occur and are documented.

Jesus statement is that we are not supposed to be troubled (alarmed, terrified, panicked) by these wars and rumors. The way that he states it indicates that they appear to be a sign in the present. Why would we be troubled by a war 80 years past?

[keithareilly]

Hi Ready1,

For those with end time theories and time frames, things of the past that do not fit the time frame are not important.

Not having an end time theory, I just look and see that WWI and WWII are the largest wars that we know of and describe nations and kingdoms rising against each other as a whole, not individual wars between a couple nations. Another significant factor of the World Wars is that the Ottoman empire was conquered during World War I, and while the Jews started returning to then Palestine in the 1800's, in 1917, during WWI, the Arthur Balfour issued an edict about wanting Jews to return to Palestine.

Once the Ottoman Empire was conquered and the British Empire, the larges empire ever on the planet, which changed the start of days from being in the evening to being at midnight through Greenwich meantime, and established modern longitudes and latitudes, dividing the earth into segments where the zero longitude, prime meridian, is now Greenwich England, and upon which modern times zones are based, the Jews started returning to the promised land in great numbers.

WWI, and WWII are literally, the birth pang wars, that resulted the "birth" of modern Israel.

So, for those of us who do not have a 7 year or 3.5 year time limit on what is to happen during end times, we can accept WWI and WWII as meeting the described birth pang wars of Israel's rebirth.

keith

[Ready1]

Hi Keith

Do you have any comments on what Jesus said?

[keithareilly]

ready1,

I commented on what He said.

Not sure what you are asking.

[Ready1]

Armenian Fighter Jet Downed by Turkish F-16; Pilot Killed
September 29th, 2020|News

Erdogan’s regime is ramping up its involvement in the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict, which is likely to escalate following the downing of an Armenian jet by Turkey on Tuesday.

Tuesday – Reports reveal that a Turkish F-16 shot down an Armenian Sukhoi Su-25 fighter jet resulting in the death of the Armenian pilot. Turkey has backed Azerbaijan for some time, and it’s reported that the F-16 departed from Azerbaijan’s Ganja Airbase Tuesday morning. Additionally, the Turkish jet carried out strikes on Armenian Armed Forces in regions close the border of the two countries.

https://beholdisrael.org/armenian-fighter-jet-downed-by-turkish-f-16-pilot-killed/

[Ready1]

Opposition in Kyrgyzstan claims power after storming government buildings

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/asia/pos ... index.html

[Ready1]

I'd like to post this here as well, thanks to St Louis Steve.

Interesting in light of Ezekiel 38 ?
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1660 ... r-on-arabs

Erdogan Declares War on Arabs
by Khaled Abu Toameh • October 16, 2020 at 5:00 am

"Some countries in our region did not exist yesterday, and they may not exist in the future...." — Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, addressing parliament on October 1, 2020.

"His [Erdogan's] crimes against the Arab peoples must be exposed, such as his massacres against the Syrian people, against the Kurds in the Kurdistan region of Iraq, and in Libya...." — Abdel Aziz Razan, a Saudi adviser at the Center for Arab-Russia Studies, Okaz, October 4, 2020.

Such powerful responses made by Saudis and other Arabs to Erdogan's contemptuous statements show that the Arabs now understand it is Erdogan and his friends in Iran whom they should fear. In the eyes of these Arabs, Erdogan and his Iranian connections represent the real threat to their security and stability.

In light of such reactions, perhaps more Arab countries will follow the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain in signing diplomatic agreements with Israel. The State of Israel, as it turns out, is a strategic and strong ally that can help Arab countries stop Turkey and Iran from spreading their contagion of terror in the Middle East.

[Ready1]

Iranian Bill Seeks to Destroy Israel by 2041, Avenge Soleimani
By Eric Mack | Tuesday, 12 January 2021 07:26 PM



Iran is proposing legislation seeking to destroy Israel in 20 years, according to The Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP).

The bill introduced to the Iranian parliament lists the goal of eliminating Israel by 2041 and the four main goals of the legislation include, per the report:

1. Exact "decisive act of revenge" on the U.S. for the killing of Quds Force Commander Qasem Soleimani and evicting the U.S. from the Middle East.
2. Continue Soleimani's mission of destroying Israel.
3. Counter alleged economic sanctions, which is deemed "terrorism."
4. Install a defiant foreign policy.

The bill, which the think tank predicts will be passed in weeks, brands Israel an "aggressor Zionist regime" as a threat to Iran, vowing to ramp up military operations against Israel and the U.S. The bill lists Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and groups in the Gaza Strip as potential allies in the above stated goals, The Washington Free Beacon reported.

Also, Iran will seek trade relations with U.S. antagonists China, Russia, and Venezuela, per the reports.

More

[Jay Ross]

Mr. B. you asked for proof that the Gentile nations are still trampling or planning to trample God's earthly hosts and His Sanctuary, then Ready1 in the post above provided proof that it is going on during this present time and their timeline to accomplish it is, IMHO, just within the 2,300 years prophesised in Daniel 8:14.

Oh well, if Iran is successful in going up to invade Jerusalem, within the next 20 or so years, then they will be one of the nations that will be assembling on the plains on the way up to Jerusalem to be judged with the other nations' kings at the Armageddon Event.

A piece of the modern day history to confirm that the Daniel 8 prophecy of the Trampling of God's Sanctuary and Earthly Hosts are still being trampled today which is 2,180 years after the Maccabee Cleansing of the temple, and around 100 years after it first began.

Oh well, Why is this so?

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. B. you asked for proof that the Gentile nations are still trampling or planning to trample God's earthly hosts and His Sanctuary, then Ready1 in the post above provided proof that it is going on during this present time and their timeline to accomplish it is, IMHO, just within the 2,300 years prophesised in Daniel 8:14.

HI Jay Ross -

Again, we have a very different way of interpreting Scripture. Daniel 8:14 does not state 2,300 years - it's 2,300 "evening and days" which is a vast difference - and Historically, this prophecy has been fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV.

There is a future time in which the Gentile Nations will be allowed to "trample" the sanctuary - and it specifically mentions 42 months. This is also 3.5 years, or 1,260 days - this can be found in Revelation 11:2:

Revelation 11:2 - New American Standard Bible

Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months

[Jay Ross]

HI Jay Ross -

Again, we have a very different way of interpreting Scripture. Daniel 8:14 does not state 2,300 years - it's 2,300 "evening and days" which is a vast difference - and Historically, this prophecy has been fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV.

There is a future time in which the Gentile Nations will be allowed to "trample" the sanctuary - and it specifically mentions 42 months. This is also 3.5 years, or 1,260 days - this can be found in Revelation 11:2:

Revelation 11:2 - New American Standard Bible

Leave out the courtyard which is outside the temple and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations; and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months

Mr. B.

I agree that Antiochus Epiphanes IV. fulfilled this prophecy, but he was rebuffed by the Israelites at that time and God judged him quickly but he was not the only "king" and leader of a nation/empire that has come up against Jerusalem to trample it. We also have Titus and the Roman Empire trampling Jerusalem and destroying the temple such that it has not been replace since then.

It seems that you are focusing on just one aspect of this prophecy, namely the trampling of God Sanctuary, and ignoring the second part of the prophecy which is the trampling of God's earthly Hosts.

Daniel 8:9-14: - 9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. 12 Because of rebellion, the host [of the saints] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled — the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"

14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."
NIV

Now the Hosts, i.e. Israel, because of their rebellion and continuous idolatrous worship, were also given over to the Little Horn to be trampled.

Now Mr. B., How long has God's Hosts, the Israelites, been given over to be trampled, was it for only 2,300 Days or has it been for 2,300 years? What does the history of the Israelites tell us? Are they still being trampled today?

Is Iran planning to go up against Jerusalem within around 20 years to trample once more the Sanctuary of God and His Earthly Hosts, i.e. the Israelites?

It was not until another 230 years passed that the Israelites were scattered to the four corners of the earth and their "sanctuary in God's grace" was taken from them and they have been hounded from one place to another, even by our Church Fathers of the Protestant Religions.

Yes, I also agree with you that after the release of the scorpions, the beast, the False Prophet, i.e. the Little Horn of Daniel 7, and Satan, after their imprisonment of 1,000 years, that they will once again attempt to destroy God's Sanctuary in Jerusalem and His Host on the earth.

It seems to me that your methodology of reading and understanding the scriptures is letting you down, but that is just my humble opinion.

Shalom

[Mr Baldy]

It seems that you are focusing on just one aspect of this prophecy, namely the trampling of God Sanctuary, and ignoring the second part of the prophecy which is the trampling of God's earthly Hosts.

It's really not good to assume.

Is Iran planning to go up against Jerusalem within around 20 years to trample once more the Sanctuary of God and His Earthly Hosts, i.e. the Israelites? It was not until another 230 years passed that the Israelites were scattered to the four corners of the earth and their "sanctuary in God's grace" was taken from them and they have been hounded from one place to another, even by our Church Fathers of the Protestant Religions.

Jay - your watchful eye on current events and how you attempt to match what's going on with Scripture is to be admired. As a matter of fact, I highly respect it. Truth of the matter is when I see any man mentioning dates, setting dates - and/or providing any specific timeframe it frankly turns me off. No man knows the day or hour. Those who have predicted such have been absolutely wrong 100% of the time. I don't get into dates. I do realize however, that certain prophecies that have been fulfilled are "types and shadows" of future prophecies or events to come.

Yes, I also agree with you that after the release of the scorpions, the beast, the False Prophet, i.e. the Little Horn of Daniel 7, and Satan, after their imprisonment of 1,000 years, that they will once again attempt to destroy God's Sanctuary in Jerusalem and His Host on the earth.

I think some clarity needs to be provided to you to understand my interpretation of the Beast & False Prophet - and how they relate to Satan.

First - I don't believe that there are two individual men ruling the Earth in the final 3.5 years. I believe there is a Fourth and Final Empire - or Beast Kingdom which arises from the Sea - then there is a single man - aka: False Prophet/Antichrist (one & the same) or Beast from the Earth. The Beast from the Sea & The Beast from the Earth are mentioned in Revelation 13.

Moving on - Never will you see where I have said I believe Satan and his minions are imprisoned for 1,000 years. I believe you are referring to Relation 20 - where Satan ONLY is mentioned as being imprisoned. For the record, I believe this is "metaphorical language" as no chains (which are mentioned) can bind a spiritual being. Nor do I believe there will be a literal Millennial Kingdom.

It seems to me that your methodology of reading and understanding the scriptures is letting you down, but that is just my humble opinion.

Yes Exactly - it is your opinion. Trust me, I feel very confident about my belief in End Time Eschatology. I simply read what the Bible says - not add anything to it, or take anything away from it. Prayer is Key.

Jay Ross - When Jesus Returns...… THAT'S IT. Eternity Begins Period. There's not going to be all this nonsense I keep reading and seeing men write books on; people conjure up - or all this fairy tale hocus pocus foolishness that I continue to see and read posted. When He splits the Sky - It will be the LAST DAY as we all know it.

[Jay Ross]

Mr. B.,

It seems to me that it is pointless to put pearls of wisdom before you as your biased understandings is that the four winds of heaven do not exist and that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are "people" acting out the characteristic of the respectively described four beasts without any influence from heavenly hosts that have already rebelled against God.

You say that you do not like people who publish a timeline that helps others to understand when prophesised events will probably take place because you believe that mankind cannot know the day or the hour of when those prophesised events will take place. I agree with you that we do not know the day or the hour as to when Christ's second return will occur, but even Christ set signposts on which fuzzy time spans could be tied to, to help us perceive when the end of this present age will end and the Millennium Age will begin.

One of those fuzzy time spans of Christ's was wrapped up in an agricultural understanding of how the season vary, i.e. early or late starts to when a particular season starts, which varies the timespan of that particular prophecy which was given by Christ.

God on the other hand gave a timespan prophecy with a specific timespan of precisely 4,000 years as to the length of time that the river of life would flow from a particular event, when the river of life would begin flowing out of God's abode on the earth. An exceptionally good detective would be able to determine the starting point, in time, for when this particular prophecy would begin and would not allow his bias understanding of how God works to colour his conclusions.

Now, our English Translations tells us that there will be many "earthquakes" occurring with respect to the Book of Revelation, however, the Greek text consistently uses the same Greek word to describe the turmoil in people when they become confused by the events occurring around them such as war(s). This same Greek word is used to describe an earthquake in water, which is impossible, but the water can be in turmoil which many a boating person fears greatly because of the dangers associated with a sea in turmoil. Yes "earthquakes" are described in the Gospels as occurring during the time that Christ was crucified, but they are described by a different Greek word which has, embedded in it, a quite different Greek Root word associated with it, than the embedded Greek Root word linked to the Greek word that is translated as "earthquake" in the Book of Revelation instead of the English word "turmoil." If we are searching for occurrences of the ground shaking with respect to the Book of Revelation, then we will not find any, whereas, if we look for turmoil between the people and the nations, then we will find them and understand that the descriptions of these periods of turmoil are associated with wars and people being killed.

Now in your post above, you deny that Rev 13 is speaking of the actions of demonic fallen Angels, and insist the entities being described in this chapter are simply people. Oh, how wrong you are with the continuation of the expressed views of the reformation fathers because of their demonization of the Roman Catholic Church and the Popes.

Now the story of God and His End Time Prophecies cannot be told without having a time frame lattice onto which you place the various prophecies, to show when the respective prophecies will occur. If you get any one of these time stamps for the respective prophecies wrong or the duration of the respective prophecy wrong, then your time frame lattice onto which you have draped the respective prophecies, collapses into a jumbled mess.

There is a lot more behind my study that confirms what I post but I do not willingly publish that research because of the nit pickers out there who find fault when my research does not conform to their belief systems which hinders their ability to comprehend how I have been able to cobble the scriptures together into a coherent picture.

God has left out some key information that would help us to piece together a comprehensive timeline that we could comfortably hang our hats on, so to speak. As such there is always some uncertainty associated with every timeline of God's Prophetic words as to when they will precisely occur. One such piece of information with respect to time is when did the fifth Age begin with the birth of Christ? Scholars are still arguing about this determination even now.

I personally do not like nit pickers who claim that the bible must be read this way or understood or interpreted another way to the way it is being explained by myself.

We need to accept that we all bring some interesting understandings to the table and that only the passing of time will confirm the truth of the matter. To claim that the Daniel 8 prophecy, with respect to the trampling of God's Sanctuary and His earthly Host, only occurred between the years 167-160 BC is flawed when the historical evidence tells us that God's earthly hosts are still being trampled today and that alone suggests that the Daniel 8:14 prophesised timespan is not yet finished, and still has some time to go.

All I have suggested is when that trampling will cease after which all of Israel will be saved.

Shalom

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. B.,

It seems to me that it is pointless to put pearls of wisdom before you as your biased understandings is that the four winds of heaven do not exist and that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are "people" acting out the characteristic of the respectively described four beasts without any influence from heavenly hosts that have already rebelled against God.

You say that you do not like people who publish a timeline that helps others to understand when prophesised events will probably take place because you believe that mankind cannot know the day or the hour of when those prophesised events will take place. I agree with you that we do not know the day or the hour as to when Christ's second return will occur, but even Christ set signposts on which fuzzy time spans could be tied to, to help us perceive when the end of this present age will end and the Millennium Age will begin.

God on the other hand gave a timespan prophecy with a specific timespan of precisely 4,000 years as to the length of time that the river of life would flow from a particular event, when the river of life would begin flowing out of God's abode on the earth. An exceptionally good detective would be able to determine the starting point, in time, for when this particular prophecy would begin and would not allow his bias understanding of how God works to colour his conclusions.

Now in your post above, you deny that Rev 13 is speaking of the actions of demonic fallen Angels, and insist the entities being described in this chapter are simply people. Oh, how wrong you are with the continuation of the expressed views of the reformation fathers because of their demonization of the Roman Catholic Church and the Popes.

Now the story of God and His End Time Prophecies cannot be told without having a time frame lattice onto which you place the various prophecies, to show when the respective prophecies will occur. If you get any one of these time stamps for the respective prophecies wrong or the duration of the respective prophecy wrong, then your time frame lattice onto which you have draped the respective prophecies, collapses into a jumbled mess.

There is a lot more behind my study that confirms what I post but I do not willingly publish that research because of the nit pickers out there who find fault when my research does not conform to their belief systems which hinders their ability to comprehend how I have been able to cobble the scriptures together into a coherent picture.

I personally do not like nit pickers who claim that the bible must be read this way or understood or interpreted another way to the way it is being explained by myself.

Good Day Jay Ross -

I quoted a few of your above comments to reply to them - as the others just simply made me yawn - and frankly almost fall asleep. Your words I have commented on actually gave me a good chuckle as the things you pen come across as if you self identify as a subject matter expert on Bible prophecy. Well let me remind you that the very passages of Scripture you read, quite clearly state that "prophecy is of no private interpretation." Yet you identify those who don't agree with your apparent faulty logic are "nit pickers." Well, everyone can't be wrong.

Over the time you have posted things on this forum, you have added to, or taken away from Scripture - which not only signals a "red flag" but Scripture in itself warns us not to add to or take away from the Words which are written (namely in the Book of Revelation). Yet, you have done this time and time again. Quite frankly, with your continuality of doing this action - it's no wonder most find what you write extremely questionable.

You appear to be "one dimensional" in your consistent fixation on the "fallen heavenly host" - and what actions you ascribe they will be doing during the final days. While I can respect your desire to attempt to discover what has been prophesized; I wholeheartedly disagree with it. As a matter of fact, until you can base what you pen in your theory on Scripture, and not some subjective conjured up theory you have collectively gathered up by others - then I simply reject what you have to offer.

Your writings simply amaze me as you come up with these unsupported timeframes by predicting the amount of time various prophecies are to come to fruition and the length of duration they are to last. Simply amazing - let me state again, prophecy is of no private interpretation. Your postings have simply mirrored those who have predicted similar timeframes in the past based on their very own research and to no surprise - they ALL have been 100% Wrong.

In closing -

I would ask that you carefully read the words others are posting, and not respond to their post by telling them what they are saying or thinking; or twist the meaning of what they wrote because you apparently did not understand. That's key to having a healthy debate - and "pearls of wisdom" for those who may have a limited understanding in a one dimensional sort of way.

We have a very different way of interpreting Scripture. I for one no longer believe there will be a literal Millennial Kingdom, as I don't believe it can be supported by Scripture. You on the other hand believe this "fallen heavenly host" will play some sort of mysterious active role - (as if they are not doing this currently) during the "little season" Satan is let loose. I disagree with this interpretation - as the metaphorical should be separated from the literal.

When Christ Returns there will be no literal Millennial Kingdom. There is no need for that. There will not be those who somehow make it through the Great Tribulation and have come to Christ and be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. Flesh & Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom- Scripture is very clear on that. Nor will there be a need for blood sacrifices in a so-called "Third Temple"; or the Earth to be repopulated by those in mortal bodies. Jesus plainly said He would rise up the believers on the LAST DAY. His Appearing will be so Glorious and Majestic that the human mind cannot possibly comprehend; nor will those who are in mortal bodies be able to behold all that brilliance which will illuminate and radiate throughout the entire universe. How can one even imagine after such an Appearance there will be sin that remains?

No Jay Ross - the things you mention need to be revisited and researched with Scripture; not some other ideas by men who want to take the money you earn by selling faulty fantasies and fairy tales in books that are better off jettisoned into the fire place - or perhaps a good fire lit trash barrel to keep the homeless warm so they don't have to rely only on those 40oz bottles of beer - or cheap wine they steal or hustle and swill down in memories of a once more fortunate life.

Please heed these "pearls of wisdom" as you continue on your path in seeking sound doctrine.

[Jay Ross]

Mr. B. what pearls of wisdom have you presented, in your post above, except that you do not believe the bible.

As for your accepting that the Translation that you read are infallible, as the scholars have translated them, is also not wise, when we all can research, to the best of our ability, to consider the actual message in context, in the Source texts from which the translations have been made and then compare the original contextual message with the changed messages in the Translations.

As you say, the scriptures are not for anyone's private interpretation, but the translation scholars have embedded their own private interpretations into the translation they have penned.

Good Day Jay Ross -

I quoted a few of your above comments to reply to them - as the others just simply made me yawn - and frankly almost fall asleep. Your words I have commented on actually gave me a good chuckle as the things you pen come across as if you self identify as a subject matter expert on Bible prophecy. Well let me remind you that the very passages of Scripture you read, quite clearly state that "prophecy is of no private interpretation." Yet you identify those who don't agree with your apparent faulty logic are "nit pickers." Well, everyone can't be wrong.

Do I understand that your own private interpretation, is the only way that scripture should be interpreted? Is that not nit picking by you?

Over the time you have posted things on this forum, you have added to, or taken away from Scripture - which not only signals a "red flag" but Scripture in itself warns us not to add to or take away from the Words which are written (namely in the Book of Revelation). Yet, you have done this time and time again. Quite frankly, with your continuality of doing this action - it's no wonder most find what you write extremely questionable.

Mr. B. have I added to or taken away from the scriptures that God had written in the Hebrew or Greek text? Are you qualified or have you done the research study to verify what the translation scholars have presented as their understanding of those same source texts, is correct? If you have then I will listen to you but if your objection is that my English Paraphrase is different from the paraphrase of the translation scholars, then you are a clanging pot and what I am presenting is change for you to consider and as I was told by a marketing director, most people do not like change.

You appear to be "one dimensional" in your consistent fixation on the "fallen heavenly host" - and what actions you ascribe they will be doing during the final days. While I can respect your desire to attempt to discover what has been prophesized; I wholeheartedly disagree with it. As a matter of fact, until you can base what you pen in your theory on Scripture, and not some subjective conjured up theory you have collectively gathered up by others - then I simply reject what you have to offer.

M. B. I would be interested to read the writings of authors that hold to a similar belief as I do. Perhaps you may like to provide that detail for me, so that I too can go and buy their books of wisdom to consider their words on the subject matter of the End Times.

Your writings simply amaze me as you come up with these unsupported timeframes by predicting the amount of time various prophecies are to come to fruition and the length of duration they are to last. Simply amazing - let me state again, prophecy is of no private interpretation. Your postings have simply mirrored those who have predicted similar timeframes in the past based on their very own research and to no surprise - they ALL have been 100% Wrong.

Again Mr. B. please document your evidence for comparison as to what timeframes are unsupported by scripture and history.

In closing -

I would ask that you carefully read the words others are posting, and not respond to their post by telling them what they are saying or thinking; or twist the meaning of what they wrote because you apparently did not understand. That's key to having a healthy debate - and "pearls of wisdom" for those who may have a limited understanding in a one dimensional sort of way.

Mr. B. Are you also criticising what you are doing in this post?

We have a very different way of interpreting Scripture. I for one no longer believe there will be a literal Millennial Kingdom, as I don't believe it can be supported by Scripture. You on the other hand believe this "fallen heavenly host" will play some sort of mysterious active role - (as if they are not doing this currently) during the "little season" Satan is let loose. I disagree with this interpretation - as the metaphorical should be separated from the literal. [/close]

Mr. B. are you stating that you only believe the part of the bible that you find acceptable to you? In other words do you believe the whole Bible is true or only the "bible" according to Mr. B.?

<snip>

No Jay Ross - the things you mention need to be revisited and researched with Scripture; not some other ideas by men who want to take the money you earn by selling faulty fantasies and fairy tales in books that are better off jettisoned into the fire place - or perhaps a good fire lit trash barrel to keep the homeless warm so they don't have to rely only on those 40oz bottles of beer - or cheap wine they steal or hustle and swill down in memories of a once more fortunate life.

<snip>

Mr. B. what are the titles of the Books that I have written to make money out of? What books or other sources have I quoted over the years,, of being on this forum, that support what I present in my posts, other than the scriptures? Your evidence would be most enlightening.

I await your response.

Shalom

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. B. what are the titles of the Books that I have written to make money out of? What books or other sources have I quoted over the years,, of being on this forum, that support what I present in my posts, other than the scriptures? Your evidence would be most enlightening.

I await your response.

Jay Ross -

I'll not engage in any further discussion with you regarding this matter as it appears to be counterproductive. If you cannot recall the things you've penned and the examples you've used - then I suggest you research your very own comments since you joined.

Shalom

[Jay Ross]

Mr. B. what are the titles of the Books that I have written to make money out of? What books or other sources have I quoted over the years,, of being on this forum, that support what I present in my posts, other than the scriptures? Your evidence would be most enlightening.

I await your response.

Jay Ross -

I'll not engage in any further discussion with you regarding this matter as it appears to be counterproductive. If you cannot recall the things you've penned and the examples you've used - then I suggest you research your very own comments since you joined.

Shalom

Mr. B. where is the evidence for your claims.

You are the one making accusations, so it is up to you to provide the evidence to support your claims. It is not up to me.

Without the evidence, your claims do not hold up at all.

Good day sir

[Ready1]

I kinda think that Jay Ross and Mr. Baldy are in the right forum: Wars and Rumors of War.



That wasn't really what I had in mind, though...

[Jay Ross]

I kinda think that Jay Ross and Mr. Baldy are in the right forum: Wars and Rumors of War.



That wasn't really what I had in mind, though...

It seems that Mr. B. was objecting to his understanding being questioned, as I used your post above on the news item that you had posted, which was a good catch by the way, to show that the Dan 8:14 timeline was not simply 2,300 days as he was trying to justify, The time frame of 20 years, that was indicated by the news item, of the proposed future trampling of the Sanctuary and God's earthly hosts, seemed, in my mind, to confirm my understanding, that the trampling of the hosts will draw to a conclusion within the next 20-25 years as this present age draws to a close.

The 9/11 event which was prophesised in the Sixth Bowl Judgement and the news item that you posted both confirmed that the time line I was presenting was fairly actuate. Mr. B. disagreed and would not let go until I agreed with his interpretation methods and outcomes. In my mind that was not going to happen on the many differences that we have.

I had hoped that I was trying to keep within the Topic for the Thread in talking about the future war that is to come in our near future without out being in a "war" with Mr. B.

I apologise if that seems to be the case.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

Good Morning Mr. Baldy and Jay,

As we each have our own interpretations of scriptures regarding wars, I thought I would share my understanding of Daniel 2 statue and the rock carved from the mountain.

See the map of Cyrus the Great's conquests.

Cyrus came from a rock shaped area called Persia (sometimes called Persis) which as you can see on the map is located in the mountains. Also observe Cyrus conquered three kingdoms. While the statue represents four kingdoms, the kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar was replaced after Nebuchadnezzar's death and prior to the rock destroying the statue, per the Daniel 2 prophecy. Thus only three kingdoms remained prior to the arrival of the rock from the mountains. One of the statements in the prophecy is that the rock kingdom will be created during the times of the kings after Nebuchadnezzar dies. Thus the three kingdoms are not sequential but exists at the same time. The Rock carved from the Mountains, Persis, through Cyrus the Great, conquered three kingdoms, Media, Lydia, and Babylon. It also states the rock kingdom will endure forever. Persia, now called Iran, still exists and its people are Cyrus the Great's decedents. While the Kingdom has been conquered, Iran still owns the land on the above map called Persia.

History shows us these wars are of the past, prior to Christ's arrival, therefore, these wars are not part of the "Wars and Rumors of War" statement Christ made during his visitation.

So how does Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 prophecies play together?

Nebuchadnezzar started reigning in 605BC and died in 562BC, three years before the Rock was carved from the Mountains in 559BC. Cyrus the Great reigned from 559BC to 530BC. Here is a map from about 600BC. Prior to when the Rock, Persia or Persis, was carved out of the Mountains.

Observe the shape of the Median empire resembles a Lion with Wings, representing the first beast of Daniel 7.
The Median Empire is the Yellow part of the map. The lion's tail is on the left side, Cappadocia, the wings are formed at the bottom by Persis, and the head with its mane are on the right side; the nose is at Bactria and the chin is at Pactyans with an open mouth but no teeth between the two.

Go look at the first map again. When Cyrus the Great, took over the wings of the Lion, Persis / Persia, the wings were ripped from the Lion. Cyrus's conquering of Lydia and Babylon replaced the tail with two feet. The bottom of one foot stands on the Red Sea. Cyrus did not conquer Egypt. So the prophecy of the first Beast of Daniel 7 describes wars waged by the "Rock Cut from the Mountains" of Daniel 2, Cyrus the Great, and how those wars changed the geography of the Lion with Wings, which Cyrus conquered and expanded through more wars and conquering.

So, we know from history, the first beast of Daniel 7 prophecy ended the Daniel 2 prophecies and also started prior to Christ's arrival and His statement about "Wars and Rumors of Wars". The Lion with Wings is historical so we do not need to expect it and any wars from it in the present or future; neither do we need to expect any wars or rumors of war concerning Daniel 2 prophecies.

Keith

[Jay Ross]

Hi Keith,

The one map type question that I have is: - "Is the topology of the Daniel 2 Statue Prophecy the same as the Daniel 7 topology?

When I answer that Question my answer is, "NO."

Why do I say that?

Because the topology of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy is confined to only the Land of Babylon, whereas the topology of the Daniel 7 covers the whole earth.

Does Scripture confirm this?

Yes, it does. Is the confirmation obvious? NO.

When reading Daniel 2, we must also read the other prophecies concerning Babylon that are found in the scriptures. We cannot cookie cut the Daniel 2 statue prophecy out of the scriptures and deal with this particular passage, separately from the other prophecies concerning the land of Babylon.

When you read of Babylon, the name is describing a specific area on the earth over which various kings have had dominion over.

In Rev 16:19 we are told that during the time of the Great Wars of the 20 century, Babylon was remembered once more before God by the people of the earth. This occurred in the year 1926, by treaty between Great Brittan and France when the Middle East was divided up and the a nation was established once more to have dominion over the Land of Babylon, “to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath,” during the End Times of the Latter Days.

To have a broad brush stroke of understanding of the fourth and fifth segments of the Statue Prophecy, we must also visit Jeremiah 50-51 where we are told that the Grecian Empire's eastern segment, devastated and desolated the People and the utility infrastructure of the Land of Babylon and scattered them throughout their empire. Jeremiah 50:39 is badly translated as: -

Jeremiah 50:39: -

39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be inhabited no more forever
Nor shall it be dwelt infrom generation to generation.
NKJV

Whereas I believe that the context of this verse as paraphrased above is lost from its original Hebrew Context and that it should be paraphrased in this manner: -

Jeremiah 50:39: -
39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
Nor shall it be inhabited no more forever/for a long period of time beyond our comprehension,
Nor/Neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation/for two ages.

Jeremiah 50-51 also sets the time frame when most of Jeremiah 50-51 will occur in.

Jeremiah 50:4-5

4 "In those days and in that time," says the Lord,
"The children of Israel shall come,
They and the children of Judah together;
With continual weeping they shall come,
And seek the Lord their God.
5 They shall ask the way to Zion,
With their faces toward it, saying,
'Come and let us join ourselves to the Lord
In a perpetual covenant
That will not be forgotten.'
NKJV

However, in Daniel 7 the influence of the Beasts, which is five in all exercise their dominion over all of the earth where we read: -

Daniel 7:2: - [color=#80FFFF]2

Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.
NKJV[/quote]
Where the Great sea is understood to refer to all of the people of the earth.

I do not believe that there is any indication as to when the four winds of heaven, i.e. the four beasts, began to exercise their influence over the people of the earth, however in Daniel 8 we have a linkage to the third Beast of Daniel 7:1-12 gaining influence over the four divisions of Alexandra the Great’s empire after his death which is the first time that we see the third’s beast exercising its influence over people. It is not until the four divisions of the Grecian Empire were established that the Little Horn is given an army to begin the trampling of God’s Sanctuary and God’s earthly hosts. In Daniel 8 the four heads of the third beast is represented metaphorically as four horns and the little horn is described as coming out of one of those four horns and this is the start of the armies that the little horn is given to trample God’s Sanctuary and His earthly hosts.

The five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 exercise their dominions over all the earth and in the latter Days this is also true for the four facetted beast that rises up out of the Bottomless Pit, it too, will exercises its influence over all the earth at that time.

Now I am not saying that the kingdoms and empires that have had and presently have dominion over the land of Babylon since the time of King Neb have not been influenced by the four winds of heaven, i.e., the beasts, they well may have, but the second, third and fifth subsequent segments of the Statue Prophecy had and now have dominions which also included other places, other than the Land of Babylon itself.

Because the topology between Daniel 2 and 7 chapter’s prophecies, are very different, we should be very careful to not assume that the manifested beasts of the four winds of heaven, i.e. the actual beasts, as one and the same entities as such. We are not told when the first and second beast appear on the world stage, and as such, we cannot assume that the first and second segment of the statue are respectively the first and second beast of Daniel 7:1-12 as you are suggesting.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

Hi Jay,

... as such, we cannot assume that the first and second segment of the statue are respectively the first and second beast of Daniel 7:1-12 as you are suggesting.

I am not suggesting any portion of the Daniel 2 statue represent any beast of Daniel 7.
What I am saying is the first beast of Daniel 7 comes into being by destroying the statue.

All of the kingdoms represented by the statue in Daniel 2 are historical. As Chapter 2 states, the rock destroys the statue's kingdoms; they all became chaff and were blown away. Consequently, the Rock that destroys the kingdoms represented by the statue, puts an end to all the Kingdoms represented by the Statue; they cease to exist. The rock that destroyed them became a huge mountain; the small country Persis became the Persian empire. The Chapter 7 beasts picks up where chapter 2 left off. The Lion with Wings and the changes described of having the wings torn off and given two feet describe how the rock became the mountain. It describes how the Median, Babylonian, and Lydian Empires were conquered and transformed into the Achaemenid Empire; which was founded by Cyrus the Great. Each of the things described are represented on the maps.

The stone destroying the statue and becoming a mountain and the Lion with Wings losing it wings and gaining feet are two different descriptions of the rise of Cyrus the Great and the Achaemenid Empire.

So, to be clear. I am not saying any of the beasts of Daniel 7 equate to any portion of the Daniel 2 statue.
For history shows the first beast of Daniel 7 came into being by destroying the all of the kingdoms represented by the Statue, making them all chaff in the wind.


Keith

[Jay Ross]

My apologise Keith, I did misunderstand what you had written, although some of my response did address the timeframe of the Daniel 2 Prophecy when linked with Jeremiah 50-51 which you wrote about and conveyed your understanding on.

However, I find it difficult to agree with your views on the timing of the Statue prophecy and as such it may be that we simple accept the others pov and agree to disagree.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

Jay,

OK, Thanks for responding.

The topic is about wars and rumors of war. In part, wars and rumors are pretty common and will become
more so due to shifts in power world wide.

Nevertheless, I think it is important to address historically prophesied wars so that people can better interpret
the meaning of current and oncoming wars.

For example, China is the number one consumer of oil worldwide. How likely is it that a China/India conflict, such as the boarder dispute at Aksai Chin, where India, China, and Pakistan meet, have to do with military transport from China to the Middle East?

Keith

[Jay Ross]

Keith,

I disagreed with your interpretation that you presented re the Statue prophecy.

The statue prophecy is still going even now, as there was a 2,000 or so gap between the the Greek dominion over the land of Babylon and the 1926 recognition before the Lord of Iraq as the established nation that would have dominion over the Land of Babylon since its establishment by treaty in 1926.

Iraq became the fourth nation that had dominion over the land of Babylon since 1926 and in 2003 the Coalition of the Willing took control of the land of Babylon and exercised their dominion over that land that had previously been ruled by Iraq. Jeremiah 50-51 tells us this story, and as such we cannot isolate the prophecy in Daniel 2 from the prophecies in Jeremiah 50-51.

In Daniel 2 we are told that the rock from heaven will strike the statue on the feet and that the statue will topple and that the rock will continue to grind the statue into chaff and dust to be blown away by the wind. However, Daniel 2 gives us no timeframe as to when the final blowing away of the chaff and dust will occur.

Now the Daniel 8 prophecy is also independent of Daniel 2 and 7, however we know that the three prophetic chapters have a common connection in time at the end of this present age where they converge together, with two diverging again afterwards.

Shalom

[Mr Baldy]

I think it is important to address historically prophesied wars so that people can better interpret
the meaning of current and oncoming wars.

Hi Keith -

I couldn't agree more with what you have posted. I know you don't personally hold any End Time belief - however, Historical Facts are huge when attempting to discern modern day times as it relates to Eschatology.

Discovering fulfilled prophecy in hindsight is almost always 20/20, and without historical evidence to confirm what has already occurred leads to extremely bad eschatological hermeneutics. It sort of reminds me of a person standing on the beach of an ocean with a shovel trying to shovel the tide back in. Or someone standing in front of a Stop Sign arguing with the verbiage that's clearly written upon it. Another example would be those who believe abortion is sin - like myself; but fail to support a system that would sustain the life of an unborn child - especially to those who have children out of wedlock. Very hypocritical - but that's the Fallen World we live in.

There are sundry meanings of eschatological beliefs out there. Problem is, instead of prayer; self-study; and even practicality in a common sense type of way - unfortunately, there will always be those who will listen to what thus sayeth those who will not do their homework; twist Scripture, and/or apply their own self interpretation in order to fit what they believe in an "emotional" sort of way. It's no wonder many will be led astray by the coming Antichrist. Oh yes, many will follow - because they love to have their ears tickled with what appears to be smooth words and their eyes stroked with written nonsense that just doesn't add up. These same folk will have their own internal Wars because they will not heed sound doctrine, and seducing spirits are something they are predisposed to because they won't pray for understanding. They will worship man - and modern day system; placing societal norms above the Creator, thus worshiping the creation more and forgetting or not understand that God is the Creator of the Universe; in Control of Everything; and is quite capable of managing His Own Creation.

Scripture mentions there will be "Wars and Rumors of War" - and as you have so eloquently mentioned the wars and prophecies of Daniel 2 have already been fulfilled. No need to reach back and grab what has already occurred to fit into a modern day timeframe - specifically given a time in which is it to occur. I believe when Jesus mentioned "wars and rumors of war" He was referring to the time just prior to His Coming.

[keithareilly]

Hi Jay,

As you pointed out, sometimes the scriptures are mis-interpreted.

Daniel 2:44
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

The problem with this interpretation is: a Kingdom ends when the king dies. This is because the word kingdom is a compound word originating from the words "King's" "Domain". I suspect the clarity of the meaning of the verse can be found in the portion that says "and that kingdom shall not be left for another people". The Aryans entered what became Persia prior to the Persian Empire being formed. They are still there today. Iran comes from the name Aryan. The Aryans still rule the same territory, Persis, from which the rock came which is modern Iran.

What this verse is saying is something like the territory shall never be taken over by another people and these people shall continue to govern their territory. It is similar to when Israel was subject to the Roman Empire but the Jews still ran the country - before they were dispersed.

The European immigrants replaced the native population of the USA. This never happened to Aryans. They still run the territory even though they too were subjects of the British Empire.

This is part of the evidence the rock that destroyed the statue of Daniel 2, Persis, still exists today and is still occupied by the same people, the Aryans, who occupied it 2600 years ago.

Keith

[keithareilly]

Hi Mr Baldy,

Thanks for the post.


What do you think about China and their military in comparison with revelation 9:16 of 200 million soldiers?

[Ready1]

Hi Mr Baldy,

Thanks for the post.


What do you think about China and their military in comparison with revelation 9:16 of 200 million soldiers?

China & India could each muster a 200 million man army with their current populations.

[Mr Baldy]

What do you think about China and their military in comparison with revelation 9:16 of 200 million soldiers?

Very honestly, China has always scared me. They are like a modern day "sleeping giant" and I don't think many are paying attention to them and their activity across the globe - at least students of Bible Prophecy.

As far as Revelation 9:16 - I don't think these "armies" that will amass in the last days are limited to China only.

[keithareilly]

China's population in 2020 is about 1.4 billion. During WWII 11 percent of the US population served in the military, 31 percent of the German population served in the military. Assuming you are correct and Revelation 9:16 represents multiple countries armies, such as WWI and WWII, I think we should be paying attention to military alliances world wide.

If the portion of the Chinese population serving in the military reflect the US during WWII then 11 percent of 1.439 billion is 154 million military personnel. If China is as aggressive as Germany was in WWII, then 39 percent of 1.439 billion indicates 561 million serving in the military. China's population grew from 1.398 billion in 2019 to 1.439 billion in 2020, about 41 million in one year. The amount of resources needed to feed these annual population increases is unlikely to be affordable ongoing. This would require China to become more aggressive and militarily take over other countries and their resources. As countries align in opposing China's aggression, additional economic penalties will be placed on China and those penalties will increase the need for the military to be used to obtain resources.

China is already engaging in territorial conflicts and if these territorial conflicts continue, which they will due to additional resources needed for the large Chinese population increases, these territorial conflicts will results in other nations aligning with or opposing China and economic sanction being put in place. it should be no surprise that Trump's China tariffs resulted in a more militarily aggressive China.

China is doubling down on its territorial claims and that's causing conflict across Asia
China Law Empowers Coast Guard to Use Force Amid Disputes
China’s Post-Coronavirus Aggression Is Reshaping Asia

China's military flags include red and yellow, the naval flags are red, yellow, and blue.

[Mr Baldy]

China's population grew from 1.398 billion in 2019 to 1.439 billion in 2020, about 41 million in one year. The amount of resources needed to feed these annual population increases is unlikely to be affordable ongoing. This would require China to become more aggressive and militarily take over other countries and their resources. As countries align in opposing China's aggression, additional economic penalties will be placed on China and those penalties will increase the need for the military to be used to obtain resources.

I think you hit the proverbial "nail on the head."

Here is an interesting article on China and how they are purchasing land globally to ensure it maintains its food supply:

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/china ... od-supply/

[keithareilly]

Hi Ready1,

Here is some more information comparing China and India.

The Population Race: A 300-Year Look at China vs. India

Hope we are back on your requested topic.

Keith

[keithareilly]

Foreign companies are giving up on the United States and betting big on China, report says
China Overtakes U.S. as World’s Leading Destination for Foreign Direct Investment

[Ready1]

China's one-child policy has left them with a shortfall of marriageable women.