Matt 24 Question

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Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:13 pm

As I was rereading Matt 24 the other evening, trying to glean a little more from it, (I do sincerely attempt to look at this passage with each rapture point of view in mind), a question popped into my mind.

Jesus is explicit when He tells the disciples in Matt 24 about his powerful and glorious return to the earth.

First he gives precursory signs and warnings that precede his return. He talks about wars, false christs', famines, pestilences, earthquakes, hatred, and the gospel being proclaimed in all the world.

Then He speaks of the time of "the end" and includes the AOD, fleeing into the Judean hills, and he gives great warning about that day (turning back, pregnant & nursing mothers) stating that it will be so bad that without devine intervention all flesh would be destroyed. And He warns to not listen to those who feign knowledge of where he is or do miracles which would falsely attempt to convince of His presence.

After that, He tells precisely how it WILL really be when He comes: like a bolt of lightening which strikes from east to west. That is what it will really be like...so don't make any mistake.

Then Jesus gets really explicit. He says that after all this, the sun goes dark as well as the moon, stars fall from heaven, and "the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (whatever that means), a sign of Jesus appears in the heavens, then everybody sees him coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and glory. And they will hear him too, as he goes about his business of gathering with His angels.

Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


If you stop right there, everything is fine. Jesus discloses it all. Precursor, Tribulation, End, He Comes.

But then in the next 16 verses He says things like:

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
Mat 24:39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Mat 24:42 Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes.

Mat 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for in that hour you think not, the Son of Man comes.



Here are my questions: (I guess these are especially salient to those who see a one-time single return of Jesus.)

How can Jesus say to me "Watch; for you do not know what hour the Lord comes", when he has just told me precisely when he is coming? How can He say that no one knows when it will be, when He just told me exactly when it will be? How can it be that "in an hour you think not, the Son of Man comes" when He has told every believer when He is coming?

Then there is another burning question. WHY SHOULD I WATCH when I know precisely when He is coming? All I have to do is watch for the signs but I really don't have to watch for Him. Why?
Just observing.

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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Jericho on Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:08 pm

I guess that is a question more for the post-tribbers and no-tribbers. There are two major markers, the seven year false peace treaty and the abomination of desolation. If you were around to witness either of those it would be pretty easy to calculate exactly when the Second Coming of Christ would occur. It makes sense to me then that Jesus was referring to a pre-trib rapture and not His Second Coming in Mat 24:42 & 44.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:55 pm

Hi Ready1 -

I'd like to provide Scripture to you in an effort to have you consider a response to your Matthew 24 Questions.

Ready1 wrote:First he gives precursory signs and warnings that precede his return. He talks about wars, false christs', famines, pestilences, earthquakes, hatred, and the gospel being proclaimed in all the world. Then He speaks of the time of "the end" and includes the AOD, fleeing into the Judean hills, and he gives great warning about that day (turning back, pregnant & nursing mothers) stating that it will be so bad that without devine intervention all flesh would be destroyed. And He warns to not listen to those who feign knowledge of where he is or do miracles which would falsely attempt to convince of His presence.

After that, He tells precisely how it WILL really be when He comes: like a bolt of lightening which strikes from east to west. That is what it will really be like...so don't make any mistake.

Then Jesus gets really explicit. He says that after all this, the sun goes dark as well as the moon, stars fall from heaven, and "the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (whatever that means), a sign of Jesus appears in the heavens, then everybody sees him coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and glory. And they will hear him too, as he goes about his business of gathering with His angels.


As you have mentioned, Jesus tells His Disciples what will occur when they ask Him:

1) When will these things happen? (Matthew 24:3)
2) What will be the sign of Your Coming? (Matthew 24:3)
3) And the End of the Age? (Matthew 24:3)

Before I precede - I'd like to have you consider this verse as well:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 -- New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.


Ok - I have mentioned the aforementioned verses of Scripture as it should shed some light the questions you have asked that follow. In the verses above Paul makes a pretty BOLD statements concerning the Coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Him - also known as the Rapture; and he further states Facts indicating What must happen prior to these two events occurring. I think it's pretty obvious at this point that what Paul mentions works in conjunction with Matthew 24 which clearly describes Christ's Return AFTER the Tribulation - and our gathering together unto Him; also known as the Rapture.

Now....on to your questions:

Ready1 wrote:How can Jesus say to me "Watch; for you do not know what hour the Lord comes", when he has just told me precisely when he is coming? How can He say that no one knows when it will be, when He just told me exactly when it will be? How can it be that "in an hour you think not, the Son of Man comes" when He has told every believer when He is coming?


If you'll carefully read Matthew 24 Jesus never tells you "precisely when He is Coming." He tells the Disciples:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

These events are "Immediately AFTER" the Tribulation...........however;

Scripture goes on to say:

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

In reading the aforementioned verse of Scripture - there is absolutely NO evidence that Jesus gives an EXACT Day or Time the "Sign" appears in the Sky; how long the tribes of the Earth mourn - or timing in which He Returns AFTER the "Sign" appears in the Sky.

Ready1 wrote:Then there is another burning question. WHY SHOULD I WATCH when I know precisely when He is coming? All I have to do is watch for the signs but I really don't have to watch for Him. Why?


You don't know precisely when He is Coming. Even when you see the signs you still won't know. If you knew - then Scripture would contradict itself. Jesus in His Humanity didn't even know. Only the Father Knows. So please continue to Watch. He never said it would be a "Secret" Return - as most would have some believe, only that we would not know the Day nor Hour.

In closing...….

I was once a diehard believer in the Pretribulation Rapture. I think I have a library full of over 300 books or more of some very well meaning Christians (some not, as they were trying to sell books to make money) concerning the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church - and I believed so much in it that I was ready to literally go to WAR with anyone who challenged my belief in it. Then one day...…. a young Christian lady on a prophecy forum challenged me to read Scripture for myself - and it changed my life.

You see most PreTrib believers will tell you that the Church will be Raptured out prior to the coming Antichrist being revealed - and I just proved in 2 Thessalonians (Scripture mentioned above) that Paul is very clear about Antichrist being revealed and the apostasy occurring prior to the Rapture and His Coming..... this is just one of many examples that prove the PreTrib theory is wrong. I don't have time to go into the plethora of others....

Nevertheless, Scripture is very clear - We Don't Know when Christ will Return - and Scripture doesn't contradict itself. When studying Scripture, other passages of Scripture will confirm what has been documented - and we must pray for understanding, and read it in a manner in which it was designed to deliver it's message. We diligently study.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Jericho on Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:03 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:You see most PreTrib believers will tell you that the Church will be Raptured out prior to the coming Antichrist being revealed - and I just proved in 2 Thessalonians (Scripture mentioned above) that Paul is very clear about Antichrist being revealed and the apostasy occurring prior to the Rapture and His Coming..... this is just one of many examples that prove the PreTrib theory is wrong. I don't have time to go into the plethora of others....


I'm not interested in starting another rapture debate, but I will add this: The Greek word for apostasy (apostasia, noun) comes from the Greek compound (apostasia, verb). It can mean "deflect" or "revolt", but it can also mean "departure" or "disappearance". Of the 15 times it us used in the NT, only 3 times does it have anything to do with the departure of the faith. It is entirely plausible then that the apostasia mentioned in 2 Thessalonians is a reference to the rapture.
Last edited by Jericho on Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:54 pm

Your posts would be a lot easier to read and a lot more civil if you didn't think you had to use LARGE FONT and other "enhancements".
Just observing.

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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:53 pm

Ok - I have mentioned the aforementioned verses of Scripture as it should shed some light the questions you have asked that follow. In the verses above Paul makes a pretty BOLD statements concerning the Coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Him - also known as the Rapture; and he further states Facts indicating What must happen prior to these two events occurring. I think it's pretty obvious at this point that what Paul mentions works in conjunction with Matthew 24 which clearly describes Christ's Return AFTER the Tribulation - and our gathering together unto Him; also known as the Rapture.


I don’t see anything in this statement or the passage in Thessalonians which would require any different interpretation than what I have made. Looks to me like you should line them up nearly line by line. I certainly did not mention the rapture in any of this.

In reading the aforementioned verse of Scripture - there is absolutely NO evidence that Jesus gives an EXACT Day or Time the "Sign" appears in the Sky; how long the tribes of the Earth mourn - or timing in which He Returns AFTER the "Sign" appears in the Sky.


That is precisely my point. I was very careful NOT to say that he proclaimed a specific day. But the truth of the matter is that we know that his return is after certain things... and those things are, the sun is darkened, the moon gives no light, the stars fall, and heavens are shaken. Therefore it is foolish for me or for you to watch for the Jesus' return until after these things have occured. Furthermore it has been foolish and wasted time for 2000 years of believers to “Watch” when Jesus can’t come until after the specific prior signs. If I understand your statements correctly (and I may not so you can make correction) you would believe that while Jesus has told precisely when he is coming, he has not told us quite enough, so we need to watch.

Nevertheless, Scripture is very clear - We Don't Know when Christ will Return - and Scripture doesn't contradict itself.


I would be the first to acknowledge that Scripture does not contradict itself. But I would encourage you to deal with the fact that this passage is the detailed, specific, accurate answer Jesus gave these disciples when they asked him ""Tell us, ... what will be the sign of your coming." It is a precise answer and we know exactly what he said and he told us when he will come.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:23 pm

Ready1 wrote: I certainly did not mention the rapture in any of this.


Oh really?

Well, here is what you did say:

Ready1 wrote: And they will hear him too, as he goes about his business of gathering with His angels.


What do you "THINK" the word "gathering" means :humm: Well, of course it is a rhetorical question... "gathering" in this particular passage of Scripture is synonymous with the Rapture.

Ready1 wrote:Therefore it is foolish for me or for you to watch for the Jesus' return until after these things have occured.


I wholeheartedly disagree. First of all you are apparently missing something here, in that you don't know what will occur AFTER the Tribulation - fact of the matter is NONE of us know. It would be very foolish to "ASSUME" anything more than what Scripture has provided us. What we do know is that there will be people who are alive after the Tribulation occurs and at His Coming.

Ready1 wrote:If I understand your statements correctly (and I may not so you can make correction) you would believe that while Jesus has told precisely when he is coming, he has not told us quite enough, so we need to watch.


Again - let's not "READ INTO SCRIPTURE." Jesus NEVER tells us "precisely when He is Coming." NEVER. He gives us signs, but NEVER the Day or Hour - I believe you should take this for what it's worth, and not assume or "read into" things that are not there.

Ready1 wrote:I would encourage you to deal with the fact that this passage is the detailed, specific, accurate answer Jesus gave these disciples when they asked him ""Tell us, ... what will be the sign of your coming." It is a precise answer and we know exactly what he said and he told us when he will come.


I would challenge you to reread Matthew 24 - if you can find anywhere in Matthew 24, or in the entire Bible where Jesus gives us an exact Day or Hour of His Return then your points will absolutely be taken as fact. The point of the matter is you or anyone else - to include myself absolutely CANNOT.

A big problem with interpreting Scripture is we as Believers have a very, very big problem with "READING INTO" passages of Scripture that are not there. That leads to very faulty hermeneutics - which ultimately leaves one confused; subject to deception; completely frustrated; and ill-informed.

Two times in the Book of Matthew - Jesus Himself told us to Watch - for we do NOT KNOW the day or hour of His Coming:

Matthew 24:42 - New International Version (NIV)

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.


Matthew 25:13 - New International Version (NIV)

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.


Therefore when you mention this:

Ready1 wrote:WHY SHOULD I WATCH when I know precisely when He is coming?


And this:

Ready1 wrote: All I have to do is watch for the signs but I really don't have to watch for Him. Why?


My answer to you is the very questions you are asking directly contradict Scripture.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:48 am

Anyone else take a crack at this?
Just observing.

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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:08 am

Ready1 wrote:Anyone else take a crack at this?

I will when able..... At work now
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby 4givenmuch on Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:10 pm

https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/2-thessalonians-2/


This does a great job explain 2 different events at the 1 Thessalonians 4 and 2 Thessalonians ideas.

https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/matthew-24/.


I do appreciate David Guzik's person and works... worth reading.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:23 pm

Those are both well written and worth reading!
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:26 am

Since I have more time on my hands right now with the California isolation directives, I would throw out a couple of questions.

For those who see the "elect" of Matt 24 as Christians, it would seem probable that there would be scriptures in the NT which would support your views of Matt 24 on a verse-by-verse basis. (We need to recognize that for the Matt 24 elect folks to be Christians (since the Holy Spirit was not poured out until Pentecost after Jesus death) that all of Matt 24 must needs be a prophecy by Jesus. I would be glad to see the additional New Testament support for each of (or at least many of) the verses that are so critical to our understanding. I feel certain that some of you who feel strongly this way could provide these NT scriptures.

And for those who see the elect of Matt 24 as believing Jews or the Jewish remnant there should be Old Testament support for each of or at least most of these verses. I will give an example of what I mean.

I believe that the following OT scriptures are or (at a bare minimum), allude to OT prophecies that Jesus is looking back toward when He makes these comments. And I believe that when we look at them all, they will support the position of a Jewish "elect". Furthermore, I think we could go through the chapter verse-by-verse and find OT support.

New Testament Matt 24/Mark 13/Luke 21 passages wrote:a) Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


b) Mar 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
Mar 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


c) Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Old Testament passages Supporting what Jesus wrote:i) 1Ki 9:7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
1Ki 9:8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?

ii) Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

iii) Mic 3:12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.



Hopefully I have made myself clear... :grin:
Maybe not everyone has as much time on their hands as I do...
Just observing.

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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:35 pm

Sorry it's taken so long to post. I think I'm a little unclear on your request though. Are you asking for new testament examples of Christian's being referred to as the elect? There are quite a few of those. I'm doing this on my phone and have given up on trying to punctuate :mrgreen:
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:40 pm

No problem, these were my first questions:

Here are my questions: (I guess these are especially salient to those who see a one-time single return of Jesus.)

How can Jesus say to me "Watch; for you do not know what hour the Lord comes", when he has just told me precisely when he is coming? How can He say that no one knows when it will be, when He just told me exactly when it will be? How can it be that "in an hour you think not, the Son of Man comes" when He has told every believer when He is coming?

Then there is another burning question. WHY SHOULD I WATCH when I know precisely when He is coming? All I have to do is watch for the signs but I really don't have to watch for Him. Why?


I probably should have started a new thread for the next question which was:

For those who see the "elect" of Matt 24 as Christians, it would seem probable that there would be scriptures in the NT which would support your views of Matt 24 on a verse-by-verse basis. (We need to recognize that for the Matt 24 elect folks to be Christians (since the Holy Spirit was not poured out until Pentecost after Jesus death) that all of Matt 24 must needs be a prophecy by Jesus. I would be glad to see the additional New Testament support for each of (or at least many of) the verses that are so critical to our understanding. I feel certain that some of you who feel strongly this way could provide these NT scriptures.


Not just references to the "elect," but scriptural support for many of the verses of Matt 24. This may take to long or there may not be enough interest to pursue it.
Just observing.

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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby mark s on Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:14 am

Hi Ready1,

I think the simplest solution for understanding who are the Elect in Matthew 24 is in the Olivette discourse itself. All we need ask is what did this mean at the time Jesus spoke it? What would the Jewish listeners understand when Jesus told them all the chosen would be gathered together when He returned, and then, when He told them a few minutes later that all the nations would be gathered to be judged righteous or condemned?

Naturally as the Jewish nation had known for many many centuries that they were the nation chosen from all the rest of the nations, when Jesus said He'd send His angels to gather the chosen, and then would gather and judge the nations, they would know He meant the chosen people, the Jews, and the nations, the gentiles, everyone else.

I too have a lot of time on my hands.

:grin:

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:16 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Ready1,

I think the simplest solution for understanding who are the Elect in Matthew 24 is in the Olivette discourse itself. All we need ask is what did this mean at the time Jesus spoke it? What would the Jewish listeners understand when Jesus told them all the chosen would be gathered together when He returned, and then, when He told them a few minutes later that all the nations would be gathered to be judged righteous or condemned?

Naturally as the Jewish nation had known for many many centuries that they were the nation chosen from all the rest of the nations, when Jesus said He'd send His angels to gather the chosen, and then would gather and judge the nations, they would know He meant the chosen people, the Jews, and the nations, the gentiles, everyone else.

I too have a lot of time on my hands.

:grin:

Much love!


I would agree with your entire statement mark s. But there are a number here who do not see it that way, so I was primarily asking for NT verses that they would feel would advance their argument that the Elect are the Church.

(It feels like this may go on longer than we were thinking at first, so we may have the opportunity to argue lots of points over and over. ) :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby mark s on Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:42 pm

Ready1 wrote:I would agree with your entire statement mark s. But there are a number here who do not see it that way, so I was primarily asking for NT verses that they would feel would advance their argument that the Elect are the Church.

(It feels like this may go on longer than we were thinking at first, so we may have the opportunity to argue lots of points over and over. ) :grin:

Yes . . . we may have time to really cover the ground!

:grin:

Some cite the NT uses of "elect" in Paul's letters as meaning this would include the gentile church, and therefore we should realize that the gentiles are included in this "elect" in Matthew 24. Of course the word would not be used that way for quite a number of years to come.

Some ask the question, was Jesus speaking to the church just the same? Prophesying of the church?

Considering that Paul revealed the church as a mystery (Gr. musterion), that is, something unknown and unknowable except by revelation, until Paul revealed it, it remained a mystery, and not previously revealed by Jesus during His prophecy.

The fact is that understanding the Matthew 24 "elect" as Israel alone brings harmony with other end times passages regarding Israel. If we understand the elect in Matthew 24 as including the gentile church, we run into serious conflicts with a number of other passages.

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:04 pm

Hello

Perhaps, when we read Matthew 24 we should also read the next chapter, 25 and the first two verses of chapter 26, as well as it is part of the Mount Olivette discourse that Jesus spoke to his Disciples on the evening two days before he was to be crucified.

In Ezekiel 34:17 we are told that there will be two separations/judgments of the "elect." The first judgement is the separation of the "elect" from where they will be scattered at the beginning of the Millennium Age and the second judgment will be of the gathered "elect" into the sheep and the Goats at the very end of the Millennium Age.

At the beginning of the Millennium Age we will have the bridegroom appearing momentarily, and those who have prepared well will entering with Christ into "the wedding hall," as He claims His Bride, before the doors are shut behind Him.

Before, Satan is thrown out of heaven, with his cohorts of rebelling heavenly hosts, he will have prepared his faithful earthly servants to perversely continue the oppression of all of the people on the earth to prevent the full summer harvest from being brought in before he is released from the Bottomless pit, where he will be imprisoned for 1,000 years, Rev 12:7, 20:1-3, Isa 24:21-22, and returns to the surface of the earth to reward His faithful servants and to impose "his perceived authority" over the people on the earth during the little while period before the beast and the False prophet, as well as Satan are captured and dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

In the Matt 24:1-26:2 discourse Jesus paints a picture that covers a period of time which is a little longer than 3,000 years/three ages. He speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, as well as all of Abraham's descendants through Jacob being scattered throughout the whole earth, before some of them will return on the fig tree in the land as leaf buds, around 91 plus years before the start of the Summer Season when the harvest of souls will begin.

In Isaiah 58, God tells us that He will not listen to their sack cloth and ashes prayers for redemption, but if they, the nation of Israel will feed the hungry, cloth the naked and lift the heavy burdens off the backs of the oppressed / heavy burdened, then He will heal them, if they stop pointing the finger, i.e. blaming everybody else for the predicament that they brought upon themselves. Chapter 24 then makes reference to God's purposes for His Saints/ Earthly Hosts and speaks of their purpose during the Last Age, God's Holy Day, within God time frame of reference, which is also called the Sabbath and to keep it Holy.

Shalom
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby Ready1 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:34 pm

mark s wrote:The fact is that understanding the Matthew 24 "elect" as Israel alone brings harmony with other end times passages regarding Israel. If we understand the elect in Matthew 24 as including the gentile church, we run into serious conflicts with a number of other passages.


We are in agreement. I think that I would go so far as to say that "If we understand the elect in Matthew 24 as including the gentile church" we are almost required to see either a post-trib or pre-wrath end time scenario.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Matt 24 Question

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:24 pm

Ready1 wrote:
mark s wrote:The fact is that understanding the Matthew 24 "elect" as Israel alone brings harmony with other end times passages regarding Israel. If we understand the elect in Matthew 24 as including the gentile church, we run into serious conflicts with a number of other passages.


We are in agreement. I think that I would go so far as to say that "If we understand the elect in Matthew 24 as including the gentile church" we are almost required to see either a post-trib or pre-wrath end time scenario.

:a3: but I would add that Mathew 24 is not in conflict with any texts that are viewed from a prewrath position at all.
Hopefully I will have more time to comment on the next few days
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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