Gog and Magog timing

[Resurrection Torchlight]

The issue of when the Gog/Magog war happens has been debated and pondered often here at FP. I thought I might share my own study and conclusions, which may offer some insight, however I will be the first to say I could be wrong so for whatever it's worth:

(It's a long one)

Gog and Magog- Ezekiel 38/39 timing
Many of today’s prophecy scholars believe that the war of Gog/Magog written of by the prophet Ezekiel will occur before the 70th week begins. I also believed this might be true, until further study led me to believe that this war in Ezekiel 38 and 39 may begin around the midpoint of Daniel’s prophesied 70th week and end at the conclusion of the week.
Who is Gog?

Ezekiel 38:2-3
2 “Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him
3 and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal.

Ezekiel 38:15
15 “You will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army;

Ezekiel 38:17
17 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring you against them?

According to these passages Gog is from the land of Magog. Magog was a son of Japheth, a grandson of Noah, who according to verse 15- settled to the north of Israel. He is the chief prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. Meshech and Tubal were brothers of Magog, (Genesis 10:2). Rosh was a son of Benjamin a grandson to Jacob (Israel) (Genesis 46:21). The tribe of Benjamin had lands within Israel just to the North of Jerusalem. There is no biblical account concerning where the descendants of Rosh may have settled. Many scholars have attempted to identify these as modern nations, using linguistics, however the implication is that these nations and in particular the nation of Gog, lie to the north of Israel.
We also see that Gog is one that was spoken of by the former prophets in Israel, who said that God would bring him against their nation. This is a huge clue that many scholars seem to overlook. What are the former days that the Lord is pointing to, and who were the prophets? Elijah, Elisha, Amos, Obadiah, Joel, Hosea, Isaiah, Micah, and Zephaniah are all believed to have lived before Ezekiel, the “former days” may be referring to the time before captivity which would include all of these prophets. So who exactly did these prophets warn would come against Israel?

2 Chronicles 21:13-17
2 Kings 8:10-13
Amos 3:11-15
Amos 8:2-4
Amos 9:8-15
Obadiah 8-9
Joel 3:4-8
Isaiah 1:24-26
Isaiah 7:17-25
Isaiah 10:5-14
Isaiah 10:20-27
Isaiah 14:24-26
Isaiah 39:3-7
Micah 5:1-15
Zephaniah 2:9-13
Zephaniah 3:18-20

If we look at these passages we see that Elijah warns of the Philistines and Arabs, Elisha warns of Hazael who would become king of Aram. Amos, Isaiah, Micah and Zephaniah all warn of Assyria, Zephaniah adds Moab, Ammon, and Ethiopia to those who will be plundered by Israel. Joel also speaks of the Philistines adding Tyre and Sidon, and Obadiah speaks against Edom and the house of Esau. Tyre and Sidon was part of Syria and now reside within modern Lebanon. The Philistines of Elijah’s day would encompass what is today the Gaza strip, the Arabs we are told bordered Ethiopia so would most likely have come from the Egyptian/ Ethiopian region across the red sea which today remain in the same areas that they occupied in ancient times. Aram is in present day Syria, Moab and Ammon as well as Edom are in present day Jordan, while ancient Assyria encompassed the northern territories, the remnant of ancient Assyria is present day Syria and Iraq and parts of Iran. Together all these regions are comprised of the descendants of Esau- the Arab nations which surround Israel. Ezekiel’s prophecy speaks of nations that join with Gog in his military campaign against Israel, perhaps these are the nations of which he speaks, but there is a personality involved, a prince who leads them- Gog by name.
So who then is this one prophesied by the prophets in the former days? Who is Gog? I believe he is the Antichrist to come- the Assyrian. The overwhelming consensus from the prophets points to the Assyrian, who will first be used by God to chastise and refine the nation of Israel. Then God will turn His indignation toward him and destroy him. We know that Gog comes from the northern kingdom. In the prophecies of Daniel we read about the battles between the king of the north and the south. These prophecies were fulfilled by the kingdoms of the Ptolemy’s and the Seleucid’s. The Ptolemies ruled from Egypt- the southern kingdom, and the Seleucids ruled from Assyria. Antiochus Epihanes, the Assyrian king fulfilled the prophecies of Daniel, who was a contemporary of Ezekiel. Therefore the region that Gog is from- the north, is in line with the prophecies that speak of Assyria. The other nations may be those who join with Gog in the battle.

Timing
There are parameters mentioned in Ezekiel that give us clues as to the timing of this war.
The nation of Israel will be restored from the sword, living securely; the following passage indicates that the whole nation of Israel will be living in the land.

Ezekiel 38:8
8 “After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

It would be logical to assume that these parameters would only be possible after the Antichrist confirms the covenant that will begin the fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week. It is likely that it is this covenant that will allow the Jews to practice the sacrificial system and to rebuild their temple. The Antichrist will be seen as their messiah, the one who has come to bring an end to war, and establish his kingdom. This coupled with the rebuilding of the temple will cause those Jews who are still scattered around the world to make aliyah en mass to Israel. There will be a time of unprecedented peace, brought about by this covenant during the first half of Daniel’s week until The Antichrist turns on them at the midpoint of the 70th week according to Daniel:

Ezekiel 38:9-14
9 “You will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you.”
10 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan,
11 and you will say, ‘I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls and having no bars or gates,
12 to capture spoil and to seize plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places which are now inhabited, and against the people who are gathered from the nations, who have acquired cattle and goods, who live at the center of the world.’
13 “Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish with all its villages will say to you, ‘Have you come to capture spoil? Have you assembled your company to seize plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to capture great spoil?’ ” ’
14 “Therefore prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “On that day when My people Israel are living securely, will you not know it?

Daniel 9:27
27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Jesus says that when the abomination of desolation occurs, that this is the signal for those Jews living in Judea to flee. While Luke records that it is when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies- indicating that these events are simultaneous and occur in the middle of Daniel’s prophesied week. This could be a clue as to when the Gog/magog war begins

Matthew 24:15-21
15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Luke 21:20-22
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 “Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Verse 12 of Ezekiel 38 above also says that the Jews live at the center of the world. This may mean spiritually, in God’s eyes that Jerusalem is the center of the world, or it might mean that at the time that this event takes place it will be the literal center of the world. Jerusalem will become the political economic and religious center of a new globalized world. The Ezekiel passage would imply that Gog if he is the Antichrist will be initially headquartered in Assyria, like Antiochus whose capital was Seleucia, located near modern day Baghdad, the antichrist may come from the land that was once ancient Assyria. But his desire will be to sit in the temple of Jerusalem as God.

Another parameter given by Ezekiel is the method of war. It appears that this war will be fought by horsemen on horseback. And that there will be very many soldiers that take part- a “great company” of “many peoples” a “great assembly and a mighty army” splendidly attired and wielding swords.

Ezekiel 38:4
4 “I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, a great company with buckler and shield, all of them wielding swords;

Ezekiel 38:9
9 “You will go up, you will come like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land, you and all your troops, and many peoples with you.”

Ezekiel 38:15
15 “You will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army;

Many commentators suggest that this is figurative, that Ezekiel was describing what he saw in terms that he understood, and that these horses might represent modern vehicles of warfare. However horses are also spoken of in the Revelation to John. The following passages may be speaking of the same great army, that of the sixth trumpet, which are inspired by the demonic forces. This army appears on the scene around the same time as the Abomination of Desolation, when the Antichrist is indwelled with the beast from the pit, which is opened at the sounding of the fifth trumpet. Note the great number and their splendid attire.

Revelation 9:16-19
16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.
17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.
19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.

Literal horses do appear to be indicated later in revelation here at the time of the reaping of the earth when the wine press is trodden, the wine press represents Jerusalem (Is 5:1-7) the blood is said to come up to the horses’ bridles, indicating that horses will be present:

Revelation 14:20
20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

Why would horses be used in a future battle, when there is so much technology available for modern tanks, planes, helicopters etc...? It may be that the initial battle against Jerusalem does involve technology and modern weapons as implied by John’s vision of the sixth trumpet horses, but something happens that causes these to become useless, perhaps the fourth bowl judgment is the cause.

Revelation 16:8-9
8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.
9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

An intense magnetic storm cause by a huge solar flare could render modern equipment of warfare useless, Solar storms are known to effect power grids, radio transmissions, satellite relays and one of the magnitude of the sixth seal may indicate that a portion of the earth’s magnetic shield is missing causing intense heat which may also in turn effect the use of modern technological devices.
Ezekiel 23 also seems to point to the timing of the beginning of this battle- the midpoint of the 70th week, when the Antichrist breaks the covenant and turns against Israel. Oholibah is code for Adulterous Jerusalem (the Harlot), note again the similarities to Ezekiel’s prophecy of Gog/Magog in his description.

Ezekiel 23:22-30
22 “Therefore, O Oholibah, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold I will arouse your lovers against you, from whom you were alienated, and I will bring them against you from every side:
23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them; desirable young men, governors and officials all of them, officers and men of renown, all of them riding on horses.
24 ‘They will come against you with weapons, chariots and wagons, and with a company of peoples. They will set themselves against you on every side with buckler and shield and helmet; and I will commit the judgment to them, and they will judge you according to their customs.
25 ‘I will set My jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in wrath. They will remove your nose and your ears; and your survivors will fall by the sword. They will take your sons and your daughters; and your survivors will be consumed by the fire.
26 ‘They will also strip you of your clothes and take away your beautiful jewels.
27 ‘Thus I will make your lewdness and your harlotry brought from the land of Egypt to cease from you, so that you will not lift up your eyes to them or remember Egypt anymore.’
28 “For thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold, I will give you into the hand of those whom you hate, into the hand of those from whom you were alienated.
29 ‘They will deal with you in hatred, take all your property, and leave you naked and bare. And the nakedness of your harlotries will be uncovered, both your lewdness and your harlotries.
30 ‘These things will be done to you because you have played the harlot with the nations, because you have defiled yourself with their idols.

Ezekiel 23:46-47
46 “For thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Bring up a company against them and give them over to terror and plunder.
47 ‘The company will stone them with stones and cut them down with their swords; they will slay their sons and their daughters and burn their houses with fire.

Here in Revelation- we see that the horns of the beast will hate the Harlot and make her desolate and naked and eat her flesh and burn her up with fire. Just like the passage above indicates, as well as Zechariah 14:2.

Revelation 17:12-17
12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
13 “These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
15 And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
16 “And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.
17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Zechariah 14:2
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

Other parameters are found in the following passage-

Ezekiel 38:18-23
18 “It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD, “that My fury will mount up in My anger.
19 “In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare that on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.
20 “The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground.
21 “I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains,” declares the Lord GOD. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother.
22 “With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone.
23 “I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the LORD.” ’

In the day that Gog comes against Israel- God’s fury will mount in anger, there will be a great earthquake that causes all who are on the face of the earth to shake at His presence. This is the day of which the Lord has spoken- the day of the Lord- which begins with these events- when Gog at the final battle of this war against Jerusalem and the Israelites is destroyed, Zechariah lays out the sequence of events- Jerusalem is captured by the armies (of Gog?) who we are told are gathered there by the Lord Himself, just as Gog is draw by God with the hooks in his jaw. Half of the city goes into exile, this causes the Lord to go forth and fight against those nations, Christ will return at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, standing on the Mount of Olives creating a great valley for those still within the city to escape.

Ezekiel 39:8
8 “Behold, it is coming and it shall be done,” declares the Lord GOD. “That is the day of which I have spoken.

Zechariah 14:1-8
1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.
7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

We see from the following passages that this day of the Lord is when the Lord comes in fury and anger, and in His wrath He punishes the wicked for their iniquity

Isaiah 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

Isaiah 66:15-16
15 For behold, the LORD will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

Ezekiel 38:19 also says there will be a great earthquake that causes all to shake at the Lord’s presence. This earthquake sounds very similar to the one mentioned in Revelation. Which also speaks about the entering into judgment when God rains on them hailstones, fire and brimstone. Note how the city is split just like in the passage of Zechariah above.

Revelation 16:18-23
18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

Ezekiel 38:21 also talks about the sword that will be brought against Gog, while it states that men will turn against each other, it specifically says that God will call for a sword to come against Gog and his armies.
What is this sword? Isaiah mentions it in the passage above, as well as in chapter 11, this is Jesus Christ- who when he returns will slay the wicked with the sword of truth-the word of God mentioned also in 2 Thessalonians and Revelation:

Isaiah 66:16
16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

Isaiah 11:4
4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
Isaiah 31:8-9
8 And the Assyrian will fall by a sword not of man,
And a sword not of man will devour him.
So he will not escape the sword,
And his young men will become forced laborers.
9 “His rock will pass away because of panic,
And his princes will be terrified at the standard,”
Declares the LORD, whose fire is in Zion and whose furnace is in Jerusalem.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Revelation 19:15
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Revelation 19:20-21
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Ezekiel 39: 2-7 support that it is God that strikes Gog, note also how the Lord says that He will make His name known in the midst of His people Israel and He will not allow His name to be profaned any longer, and that the nations will all know that He is the Lord. This could only happen at the end of the 70th week not at it’s beginning, because His name will not be known among all of Israel yet, and it will be profaned during the 70th week, and all nations will not know that He is Lord until He visibly returns to set up the Millennial kingdom.

Ezekiel 39:3-7
3 “I will strike your bow from your left hand and dash down your arrows from your right hand.
4 “You will fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field.
5 “You will fall on the open field; for it is I who have spoken,” declares the Lord GOD.
6 “And I will send fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the coastlands in safety; and they will know that I am the LORD.
7 “My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

The sacrifice mentioned in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is similar to that mentioned in Revelation

Ezekiel 39:17-20
17 “As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, “Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood.
18 “You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 “So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 “You will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war,” declares the Lord GOD.

Revelation 19:17-18
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

Also mentioned here:

Isaiah 18:5-6
5 For before the harvest, as soon as the bud blossoms
And the flower becomes a ripening grape,
Then He will cut off the sprigs with pruning knives
And remove and cut away the spreading branches.
6 They will be left together for mountain birds of prey,
And for the beasts of the earth;
And the birds of prey will spend the summer feeding on them,
And all the beasts of the earth will spend harvest time on them.

Isaiah 34:6-7
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.

Zephaniah 1:7-8
7 Be silent before the Lord GOD!
For the day of the LORD is near,For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice,
He has consecrated His guests.
8 “Then it will come about on the day of the LORD’S sacrifice
That I will punish the princes, the king’s sons
And all who clothe themselves with foreign garments.

Many site the burning of the weapons as the reason for this battle to occur before the 70th week because it lasts for seven years, but I see no reason why this could not happen into the Millennium as fuel will still be needed for cooking and heat during that time.

Ezekiel 39:9-15
9 “Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons and burn them, both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, and for seven years they will make fires of them.
10 “They will not take wood from the field or gather firewood from the forests, for they will make fires with the weapons; and they will take the spoil of those who despoiled them and seize the plunder of those who plundered them,” declares the Lord GOD.
11 “On that day I will give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off those who would pass by. So they will bury Gog there with all his horde, and they will call it the valley of Hamon-gog.
12 “For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.
13 “Even all the people of the land will bury them; and it will be to their renown on the day that I glorify Myself,” declares the Lord GOD.
14 “They will set apart men who will constantly pass through the land, burying those who were passing through, even those left on the surface of the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search.
15 “As those who pass through the land pass through and anyone sees a man’s bone, then he will set up a marker by it until the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog.

The nation of Israel buries the dead for 7months, they burn the weapons for seven years- this implies that there are a lot of weapons left by a great horde of warriors. The Israelites could only gather this fuel for fire during a time of peace, it says that they will take the spoils of war and plunder from those who plundered them. For this to occur over a seven year time frame it cannot involve the whole 70th week, because we know that the Jews will flee Jerusalem at the midpoint they will live as exiles scattered again to the nations around the world, all they leave behind will be plundered by their enemies. They will not be burning weapons of war, when the war against them is still going on. The passage also says that when they bury the dead is also when the Lord God glorifies Himself, again this is an indication that the millennial kingdom begins at the same time.

Ezekiel 39:21-24
21 “And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them.
22 “And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward.
23 “The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword.
24 “According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them.” ’ ”

Ezekiel says in verse 38:15 that the nations will know the Lord, when He is sanctified through Gog:

Ezekiel 38:15-16
15 “You will come from your place out of the remote parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army;
16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.”

This is exactly like what was said about Pharaoh at the exodus:

Exodus 14:17-18
17 “As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
18 “Then the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD, when I am honored through Pharaoh, through his chariots and his horsemen.”

The Jews also believed in the Lord through these events

Exodus 14:30-31
30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore.
31 When Israel saw the great power which the LORD had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in His servant Moses.

The similarities between the exodus from Egypt and the exodus from Babylon- which I believe to be Jerusalem- which by the way we are told is mystically called Egypt (Rev 10:8) are remarkable. The plagues of Moses are very similar to the plagues brought on by the trumpets and bowls- water turned to blood, boils, hail, locusts, darkness. These are all signs to the Jews to remind them how God redeemed them from Egypt, in fact it seems that the exodus from the Harlot Jerusalem may come at Passover according to the song of Moses which has yet to be fulfilled:

Exodus 15:12-18
12 “You stretched out Your right hand,
The earth swallowed them.
13 “In Your lovingkindness You have led the people whom You have redeemed;
In Your strength You have guided them to Your holy habitation.
14 “The peoples have heard, they tremble;
Anguish has gripped the inhabitants of Philistia.
15 “Then the chiefs of Edom were dismayed;
The leaders of Moab, trembling grips them;
All the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.
16 “Terror and dread fall upon them;
By the greatness of Your arm they are motionless as stone;
Until Your people pass over, O LORD,
Until the people pass over whom You have purchased.
17 “You will bring them and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance,
The place, O LORD, which You have made for Your dwelling,
The sanctuary, O Lord, which Your hands have established.
18 “The LORD shall reign forever and ever.”
The future exodus from mystical Egypt, like the first exodus from the actual Egypt, will see God go before Israel and behind them, in His glory He will lead them out in safety, and He will be their rear guard, just like the pillar of fire by day and smoke by night, that went before Israel to lead them out of Egypt.

Isaiah 52:9-12
9 Break forth, shout joyfully together,
You waste places of Jerusalem;
For the LORD has comforted His people,
He has redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The LORD has bared His holy arm
In the sight of all the nations,
That all the ends of the earth may see
The salvation of our God.
11 Depart, depart, go out from there,
Touch nothing unclean;
Go out of the midst of her, purify yourselves,
You who carry the vessels of the LORD.
12 But you will not go out in haste,
Nor will you go as fugitives;
For the LORD will go before you,
And the God of Israel will be your rear guard.

Isaiah 58:8
8 “Then your light will break out like the dawn,
And your recovery will speedily spring forth;
And your righteousness will go before you;
The glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

The context of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is the coming Kingdom age, Judgment on the nations that go against Israel and the restoration of Israel that follows the war. Ezekiel’s temple (chapter 40) may very well be the temple that is rebuilt during the tribulation, but it will be overrun by gentiles and desecrated by the Antichrist, much like Antiochus desecrated the temple during the Maccabean revolt, they had to restore the Temple afterwards and the city which had been Hellenized also had to be restored.
It seems to me that in this context that this battle will begin with the Armies that surround Jerusalem at the midpoint who desire to plunder the Jews and take their wealth, The Antichrist who may himself be Gog the prince turns on the Jews- breaking the covenant, however his forces will eventually be defeated by The Sword of the Lord upon His return. This war will continue throughout the last half of the 70th week- God will use the Antichrist and his armies to refine Israel and bring them to repentance just as He did Pharaoh, and He will deliver some, protecting those who initially flee to the wilderness, and then later He will deliver forever when He strikes down the Antichrist and the false prophet and their armies with the sword of His mouth.

The Lord will restore the fortunes of Israel, re-gathering them again to the land of their inheritance, where they will live securely, the Lord will be sanctified through them before many nations, and He will pour His Spirit on the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:25-29
25 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name.
26 “They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid.
27 “When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.
28 “Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.
29 “I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord GOD.

In conclusion: Taking all these things into account it appears to me that the Gog/Magog war begins sometime around the middle of Daniel’s 70th week and continues throughout the second half of the week, God will bring these forces against Israel initially for her refinement, and when it is accomplished he will destroy the destroyer at His second coming.

Isaiah 33:1
1 Woe to you, O destroyer,
While you were not destroyed;
And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.
As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed;
As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.

Isaiah 10:12
12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.”

Isaiah 10:25
25 “For in a very little while My indignation against you will be spent and My anger will be directed to their destruction.”

Isaiah 51:22-23
22 Thus says your Lord, the LORD, even your God
Who contends for His people,
“Behold, I have taken out of your hand the cup of reeling,
The chalice of My anger;
You will never drink it again.
23 “I will put it into the hand of your tormentors,
Who have said to you, ‘Lie down that we may walk over you.’
You have even made your back like the ground
And like the street for those who walk over it.”

Gog, the one spoken of by the prophets of the former days, is the Assyrian- the rod used to bring about the discipline of God upon Israel- the future Antichrist. Jesus Himself points to Antiochus Epihanes when He points to the abomination of desolation in the book of Daniel, Antiochus partially fulfilled this prophecy long before Christ ever lived, but in a dual fulfillment, a future Assyrian much like Antiochus will desecrate the future temple in Jerusalem, and he will come to his end when Christ returns and slays the lawless one with the sword of His breath.

With all this said, I do believe that there will be some kind of conflict, that will occur before the 70th week begins that many will believe is the Gog/Magog war, causing them to falsely believe that it is the end of the 70th week. The earthquake of the sixth seal, which I believe happens just before the beginning of the “week” will also lend to this deception. Into this arena will step the false prophet and the Antichrist to proclaim a new era of peace and global cooperation. The Antichrist will enter into the covenant and Israel will resume their sacrifices and rebuild their temple. During this first half of Daniel’s 70th week a time of seeming security and safety will ensue. Jews from around the world will flock to Israel, right where the Antichrist wants them- within his reach. For a time they will believe that it is God’s kingdom being set up, until the Antichrist surrounds them with armies and desecrates the temple claiming to be God Himself. (see 2 Thessalonians 2) Then those who understand the signs will flee Judea to be protected by God, while many more will flee to other parts of the globe, scattered again among the nations until the Lord returns and destroys both the Antichrist and false prophet and all the armies gathered to destroy Israel and their God. He will set His glory in Jerusalem and re-gather those who were exiled to Jerusalem and the Millennial Kingdom.



RT

[Wickus]

With all this said, I do believe that there will be some kind of conflict, that will occur before the 70th week begins that many will believe is the Gog/Magog war, causing them to falsely believe that it is the end of the 70th week. The earthquake of the sixth seal, which I believe happens just before the beginning of the “week” will also lend to this deception. Into this arena will step the false prophet and the Antichrist to proclaim a new era of peace and global cooperation. The Antichrist will enter into the covenant and Israel will resume their sacrifices and rebuild their temple. During this first half of Daniel’s 70th week a time of seeming security and safety will ensue. Jews from around the world will flock to Israel, right where the Antichrist wants them- within his reach. For a time they will believe that it is God’s kingdom being set up, until the Antichrist surrounds them with armies and desecrates the temple claiming to be God Himself. (see 2 Thessalonians 2) Then those who understand the signs will flee Judea to be protected by God, while many more will flee to other parts of the globe, scattered again among the nations until the Lord returns and destroys both the Antichrist and false prophet and all the armies gathered to destroy Israel and their God. He will set His glory in Jerusalem and re-gather those who were exiled to Jerusalem and the Millennial Kingdom.

Interesting summery. But how do you fit this part of the prophecy into your conclusion:

Eze 39:6-7 And I will send a fire on Magog, and on them that dwell securely in the isles; and they shall know that I am Jehovah. And my holy name will I make known in the midst of my people Israel; neither will I suffer my holy name to be profaned any more: and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel.

I can not see how the 70th week can be after this war as God has stated that the nations AND Israel will know that He is God and His holy name will NEVER be profaned anymore. In the 70th week God's name will be profaned as described in Revelation. This is part of the prophecy and must be read in context.

My view is that this war will either be just before Armageddon or at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ as stated here:

Rev 20:7-9 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi wickus,

I think you misunderstood me- I do not believe that Gog/Magog happens before the 70th week. I believe that it begins mid week and ends at Armageddon. The idea that this war begins at the mid point of the week does not negate the fulfillment of the passage you quoted. It will be fulfilled when the battle ends at Armageddon.

Eze 39:6-7 And I will send a fire on Magog, and on them that dwell securely in the isles; and they shall know that I am Jehovah. And my holy name will I make known in the midst of my people Israel; neither will I suffer my holy name to be profaned any more: and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel.

Jesus will make his name known amidst the people of Israel and He will reign as King of Kings over the earth for a thousand years. The world will worship him alone, His name will never again be profaned among the people of earth, because He will be visible and reigning from Jerusalem- there will be no doubt any longer as to who and what He is.Satan the deceiver will be chained and will not be able to deceive the world as to who Christ is. Zechariah explains that those who are left who went against Jerusalem will have to celebrate the feast of booths. Then the revelation talks about the descendants of those people- and calls them Gog and Magog who will after Satan's release come against Jerusalem again and God will wipe them out. They are called Gog/ Magog because they are descended from those who survive the 70th week, those who went against Jerusalem- who were gathered by God to come against Israel in order to refine them during that second half of the week. Scripture is full of references to the idea that God will use these forces to accomplish His plan for Israel to chastise and refine them until they come to the point of repentance. I have included them in the study. Then God will repay those nations that went against His people.

However I do theorize that some other conflict will occur, that many will say is Gog/Magog. But it will not be. I personally think that this is part of the delusion, that many will believe that the beginning of the 70th week is its end. This idea is already being established by some Orthodox Rabbis who claim that the current middle east conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan is the Gog/Magog war, and that it will end with a conflict with Iran. Afterward they expect their messiah to come and the temple to be rebuilt. You can see how easily the Antichrist could step into this scenario. But it's all just a theory and I could be wrong about it.



RT

[Wickus]

Hey RT

I did misunderstand you. Thanks for clearing it up. They way explained does make sense to me.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

RT

[1whowaits]

RT, i would like to present the counter view on Gog-magog timing. But first i would like to address some of the points you have raised.

It does appear that although there are several similarities between Gog and Armageddon, there are significant diferences that cannot be resolved. Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave according to Ezek 39, while the AC is captured alive and thrown into the lake of Fire after armageddon. The list of differences is long, such as there are a limited number of nations at Gog while all nations gather at armageddon, God sends destruction at Gog while Jesus sets foot on the earth and destroys the armies directly, etc. (discussed extensively in the past)

The evidence from scripture is weighted toward Gog-Magog and armageddon being 2 separate and different battles, and while there are some similarities, if one cannot resolve the obvious differences between the death of Gog vs the destruction of the AC, the logical argument has to be that 2 different events are in view.

As far as Gog being described elsewhere in scripture, Joel 2 does describe an attack consistent with that of Gog, the locust army from the north, that God does destroy, and Joel 2 does appear to place this battle as occurring separately from armageddon as described in Joel 3. Amos 7 also describes an attack by the locusts, and the Septuegent does call the king of the locusts Gog.

As far as God's name not being profaned as mentioned in Ezek 39, Ezek 36 explains that this is a reference to God sending Israel into captivity among the nations, which He will not do during the 70th week ('wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, These are the Lord's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' Ezek 36:20).

Also it does appear that both Gog-Magog and armageddon are both battles of relatively short duration. Both Ezek and Rev describe armies gathering, a few at Gog, all at armageddon, followed by God sending destruction at Gog and Jesus directly destroying the armies at armageddon. Both of these battles involve God destroying human armies, when God destroys directly it is quick and decisive. Jesus tramples the armies as grapes at aramgeddon, conceiveably it will not take long for Jesus to accomplish this. And all previous battles in the past few years against Israel have concluded in a matter of days to weeks, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that Gog or armageddon will be any different, especially when God is involved.

So realizing these points, it should be relatively straightforward in determinig the most likely time of occurance of Gog-magog, based on the description of Israel in Ezek 38-39. Prior to Gog, Israel dwells in the land in security and does not know God. After Gog, all Israel is regathered to the land and does know that God is the Lord.

As Gog and armageddon do not appear to be the same battle, Gog does not occur at the end of the 70th week. As Israel is regathered to the land after Gog and does not know God prior to Gog, Gog-magog in Ezek does not occur during the millneium as Israel does know Christ who lives in Jerusaelem during the millenium, and there is no indication that Israel is exiled during the millenium, needing to be regathered at the end of the millenium.

During the latter half of the 70th week Satan persues Israel who is protected by God in the wilderness, which is not consistent with Ezek 38 which describes Israel dwelling in the center of the land in security. As the pursuit of Israel appears to begin at the AOD, it would appear that it is higly unlikely for Gog-Magog to occur at or after the AOD as it would be inconsistent with the description noted in Ezek 38 and 39.

So this would then leave the time prior to the AOD as the most liklely timeframe for Gog-Magog to occur, to be consistent with the description of Ezek 38-39. As 7 years of weapons burning is described as occurring after Gog, it would be most likely that Gog occurs toward the beginning of the 70th week. (note that the Jews are not described specifically as burning the weapons but rather 'those who live in the towns of Israel' burn the weapons. This would then explain how the weapons could be burned during the latter half of the 70th week when the Jews would not be living in the towns of Israel but in the wilderness, those who take over Israel after the AOD, those living in the towns of Israel would burn the weapons. Also if weapons are burned during the millenium, and Gog-Magog and armageddon are 2 separate battles, how would one determine when the buring of the Gog weapons was completed and the burning of the armageddon weapons commenced?)

And as in the eastern mind a part of a year can count as an entire year, the weapons could be burned for 6 years and 1 day to count as 7 years, which could mean that Gog does not have to occur the very first day of the 70th week to fulfill scripture.

[Keeping Alert]

Not to hijack this thread but if I may ask if any here thinks that there will be another war before the 70th week starts? I am thinking of the destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17). In particular I had an interesting thought for 1whowaits.

There has been discussions on FP that Gog-magog may be the war that leads people to mistake the Armaggedon war and we have speculated that Satan who is the great counterfeiter, will use the Gog-Magog war to trick the world into accepting the false Messiah.

I am wondering if the war that makes people mistake Armaggedon could be the Isaiah 17 war which many feel is a nuclear war? The sequence seems to fit - Armaggedon then true peace. Damascus then false peace. Peace and Safety then destruction (Gog-Magog) according to what 1whowaits believes. An interesting insert would be speculation on when the rapture would happen because if the rapture happens before Damascus and people mistake it for Armaggedon, it would surely reinforce the deception that the peace after the Damascus war is the millenium peace when in actual fact it is a Satanic peace.

Just wondering out loud...

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi 1whowaits,

Thanks for your reply. I am not sure if you understood what I was saying completely. I do believe that Gog/Magog will begin just before the AOD. God will draw these nations to gather against Israel. Gog I believe is the antichrist, and also the nations that he leads. However after the AOD the nations of the world will join with him, they will worship him and their armies will join his. This idea does not contradict scripture, it is just a different way of looking at it. And yes when the Lord comes the final battle will be swift, we are told that at His appearing the enemies will be destroyed. So this will happen in moments. Revelation says that in one hour Babylon will be laid waste. On this we agree. But Ezekiel never says anything about the duration of the Gog/Magog battle.

2 Thessalonians 2: 8
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Ezekiel 39:4-5
4"You will fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field.
5"You will fall on the open field; for it is I who have spoken," declares the Lord GOD.

The antichrist is killed, Daniel 7:11 says that the beast is slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame. Remember the Antichrist is a human being. He will be killed and buried in the ground with his troops. Then he will be resurrected and thrown alive into the lake of fire. The implication is that he will be raised with an eternal body that will then be cast into the lake of fire. I see no contradiction therefore with this conflict culminating at Armageddon.

Joel 2 and 3 IMO seem to confirm the idea of the initial Gog invasion of Jerusalem culminating in the battle of Armageddon. It seems that in this passage that the battle against Jerusalem ends with God's vengeance upon them.

During the latter half of the 70th week Satan persues Israel who is protected by God in the wilderness, which is not consistent with Ezek 38 which describes Israel dwelling in the center of the land in security. As the pursuit of Israel appears to begin at the AOD, it would appear that it is higly unlikely for Gog-Magog to occur at or after the AOD as it would be inconsistent with the description noted in Ezek 38 and 39.

I disagree- it is not inconsistent at all. Perhaps you should go back and read my OP, it seems like you missed some of my points. But Israel will be in the land living securely before the AOD, at the center of the world. The first half of the 70th week, will be a time IMO of false peace. The Jews will rebuild their temple, and those Jews living abroad will make aliyah en mass to return to Israel.The Antichrist and false prophet will be viewed as savior by Israel. Whatever the covenant is that is confirmed it will allow Israel unprecedented peace and will also allow them to rebuild their temple. Jews who still live around the world in foreign countries will want to return to the land of their inheritance. The antichrist may even declare a Jubilee. I believe that Gog/Magog will occur just before the AOD or concurrent with it. The gospels seem to indicate this. Matthew says that those living in Judea (Jerusalem and vicinity) see the AOD then they should flee, while Luke 21 indicates that when they see the armies surrounding Jerusalem that is the time for them to flee. This was in my OP- perhaps you missed it.

As far as God's name not being profaned as mentioned in Ezek 39, Ezek 36 explains that this is a reference to God sending Israel into captivity among the nations, which He will not do during the 70th week ('wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, These are the Lord's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' Ezek 36:20).

The point is that Israel will continue to profane the Lord's name, they did it all throughout their history following the Exodus, and they will continue to do so even during the 70th week. Except for those who are sealed who will flee Judea as you have pointed out. I also believe that the Jews will again be scattered during the great tribulation- not all of them, but many will leave Israel because the Antichrist will set his face against them. Isaiah and the OT prophets talk about the people of Israel being brought back by the nations to Jerusalem when the Lord reigns- so they will have to have been scattered again for them to be regathered.

Ezekiel 39 says that the Lord will not let His holy name be profaned any longer- by anyone ever, and that all the nations will know that He is the Lord- this can only happen after Armageddon when He sets His glory among the nations. Verse 8 says it is the "day of which I have spoken"- what day? The day of the Lord. Ezekiel follows this with the explanation of burning the weapons.

Ezekiel 39:7-8
7"My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8"Behold, it is coming and it shall be done," declares the Lord GOD. "That is the day of which I have spoken.

Ezekiel 39:21-24
21"And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them.
22"And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward.
23"The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword.
24"According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them."'"

The passage above talks about Israels exile and how the Lord gave them into the hands of their adversaries (Gog/Magog) and the next passage explains their return from the nations when Israel will be restored and when God no longer hides His face from them.

Though some might argue that this restoration comes before the AOD, I do not believe so, because if the Lord will not allow His holy name to be profaned any longer, then it could not occur before the AOD, because it is an act that will profane God's name and the Antichrist will profane the Lord throughout the second half of the 70th week, and the world will worship not only him but the dragon- Satan himself.

Then in Ezekiel 40- you have the description of the Millennial Temple and the service of the Jews in the Millennial kingdom. I believe that this is not the same temple that will be built during the 70th week, because the Revelation and Zechariah tells us that Jerusalem will be split and the likely outcome is that the temple that the Antichrist seats himself in will be destroyed.

I appreciate your comments and we may agree to disagree. There are so many things that I do not understand, and it could very well be that I have this all wrong. But I throw it out there for your consideration.

The Lord bless you

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Not to hijack this thread but if I may ask if any here thinks that there will be another war before the 70th week starts? I am thinking of the destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17).

Hi KA,

I do believe there will be some war that will be mistaken for Gog/Magog- Armageddon. I am not sure if it will be any of those spoken of in Psalms, perhaps. Or they could all be part of the final sequence of battles when the Lord returns. But I do think that some kind of conflict will occur between Israel and the Arab nations around her.

RT

[Wickus]

Not to hijack this thread but if I may ask if any here thinks that there will be another war before the 70th week starts? I am thinking of the destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17). In particular I had an interesting thought for 1whowaits.

There has been discussions on FP that Gog-magog may be the war that leads people to mistake the Armaggedon war and we have speculated that Satan who is the great counterfeiter, will use the Gog-Magog war to trick the world into accepting the false Messiah.

I am wondering if the war that makes people mistake Armaggedon could be the Isaiah 17 war which many feel is a nuclear war? The sequence seems to fit - Armaggedon then true peace. Damascus then false peace. Peace and Safety then destruction (Gog-Magog) according to what 1whowaits believes. An interesting insert would be speculation on when the rapture would happen because if the rapture happens before Damascus and people mistake it for Armaggedon, it would surely reinforce the deception that the peace after the Damascus war is the millenium peace when in actual fact it is a Satanic peace.

Just wondering out loud...

Hi KA

The Lord has led me to study this prophecy, and I came to the conclusion that the fall of Damascus will be at the end of the 70th week and maybe at the same time of Armageddon. Here is the proof:

Isa 17:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

This is not the current situation of Israel, but rather the Israel in the great tribulation.

Isa 17:7 In that day shall men look unto their Maker, and their eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

That day = the day of the Lord. It will be God who will destroy Damascus, and not Israel with nukes. The glory will go to the Lord. Israel demolishing Damascus will not cause men to look unto their Maker and have respect for Him.

Hope it helps.

[Keeping Alert]

Wickus, Indeed, those verses you quoted does seem to point to an event in the GT and the DOTL rather than before it. I also remember Isaiah 13 describing Babylon in the DOTL and if the whole section of prophecies against the nations (chapter 13-23) were one whole block, then perhaps all those nations prophesied against are events in the DOTL too.

RT, just wanted to say, once again, you have laid out your views clearly and with convincing evidence. I used to believe that the Gog/Magog war happens at the beginning of the 70th week but I now can see how it may happen a little later just before the AOD.

Thanks!

[1whowaits]

KA, it does appear that the destruction of Damascus occurs prior to Gog-Magog and the 2 events are connected together. Isa 17 does describe the destruction of Damascus and then later in the chapter describes the raging of many nations that come to loot and plunder, which would appear to be consistent with the description of nations at Gog-Magog.

The nations associated with the destruction of Damascus (Syria), Gaza, Lebanon (Tyre and Sidon), Jordan (Moab, Ammon,Edom), Egypt,( listed in Isa 14-17, Jer 47-49, Zech 9, Amos 1, Ps 83), are associated together in destruction but they are absent from the list of nations at Gog-magog. As these nations would be present at Gog, it appears likely that they are dealt with prior to Gog, as Isa 17 appears to describe.

And in Isa 17 there appears to be great destruction in Israel, the 'fortified city', possibly Tel Aviv, 'disappears', apparently is destroyed, which would descrease the 'mass' of Jacob's body. The destruction of Damascus and Gog-Magog are clearly not events of the DOTL, at the DOTL 'all nations' gather to Jerusalem, not a limited number as described at Damascus and Gog, and Jesus comes to the earth and fights directly with 'all nations', which is not described at the destruction of Damascus or Gog, but is described at armageddon in Zech 14, Joel 3, Rev 16,19.

As Gog-magog has 7 years of weapons burning following it, the destruction of Damascus would occur prior to that time. The destruction of Damascus may occur in the spring as Isa 17 does make reference to the grain harvest in association with Damascus' demise. Joel 2 appears to place Gog-Magog at the time of the day of Atonement, the only appointed feast that is a fast.

Also, the use of the term DOTL in scripture does not always refer to the day of Christ's return at the end of the 70th week and armageddon. The OT describes several past events as the DOTL, which were clearly not the time of Christ's return. Ezek 30 describes the destruction of Egypt by Babylon in the past as the DOTL, and Ezek 32 even describes the darkening of the sun and moon at this event. The signs of the DOTL can be present, the term DOTL can be used, but if 'all nations' are not present, and if Jesus does not return, the event described may not be 'the' DOTL.

Clearly the use of the term DOTL does not always refer to armageddon and Christ's return, the context clarifies which event is being described. At the last day 'all nations' are gathered and Jesus returns to fight the gathered nations. Gog-Magog and the destruction of Damascus can be called 'a' DOTL, but they are not the 'great and terrible day' of Joel 3, as not all nations are gathered and Jesus does not return at these events, they are therefore not 'the' DOTL.

[1whowaits]

RT, just responding to some of your points and developing the argument, actually the 'beast' of Dan 7 is the kingdom of the AC, the AC is the 'little horn' who speaks, the kingdom is destroyed by fire, and the other beasts, kingdoms, survive for a period of time. Rev clearly states that the AC is captured alive at armageddon, he is not killed and resurrected, he is cast alive into the lake of fire.

This is in contrast to Gog who is buried (likely after he is killed) in a mass grave with his troops according to Ezek. The descriptions are completely different, and suggesting a resurrection of the AC to be cast into the lake of fire has no scriptural support whatsoever and contradicts what Rev clearly states.

My point being that there is no way to reconcile the completely different modes of destruction of the AC and Gog unless one changes what the scripture states. And if the destruction of the AC and Gog cannot be reconciled, then they are 2 different individuals. And if the AC and Gog are 2 diferent individuals, then it is likely that Gog-magog and armageddon are 2 different battles, which is confirmed by all the other differences noted in scripture between Gog-Magog and armageddon.

If Gog-Magog occurred just prior to the AOD, then Israel would be regathered to the land during the GT, when Satan and the AC are trying to destroy Israel, which would be highly unlikely. Rev states that Israel is taken into the wilderness for 3.5 years out of Satan's reach, and as Israel is offering sacrifices at the time of the AOD and would then be in the land prior to the AOD, the 3.5 years that Israel is in the wilderness is likely the 3.5 years of the GT.

And altough Ezek does not state the duration of Gog-magog, it would be quite a stretch for it to occur over 3.5 years, which would be the only way Gog-Magog occurring just prior to the AOD would make any sense. If Gog-magog occured just prior to the AOD all of the Jews outside of Israel would have to be gathered back into the land before the AOD occurred, for Ezek 39 to be fulfilled, as Israel would not be regathered during the 3.5 years of the GT when Satan is trying to destroy her. As the number of Jews living outside of Israel is about equal to those living inside Israel, it would likely take many months to a year or more for all of the Jews throughout the world to be regathered to the land as Ezek 39 describes.

It would then be more likely that Gog-Magog occurs a significant amount of time before the AOD, otherwise Ezek 39 would not be fulfilled as described. The regathering of Israel cannot occur during the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. And as Gog-Masgog and armageddon are different events, the regathering of Israel after Gog would not occur at the end of the 70th week, as that is the time armageddon occurs. This would make the most likely time of occurrance of Gog-magog to be a significant time prior to the AOD.

As far as Israel profaning the Lord's name, what 'profaning' means is determined by the context of the passage. Ezek 36 clearly states what profaning the Lord's name means, and it is God sending Israel into exile and the nations profaning His name because His people could not remain in their land. After Gog magog God returns Israel to the land and the nations know that 'He' sent them into exile for their sin, and then His name will no longer be profaned because 'He' will not again send them into exile. And God does not send them into exile during the 70th week, He takes then into the wilderness and protects them for 3.5 years. 'Profaning' the Lord's name is not what we might think it is, it is what the scripture describes, and Israel does not profane His name during the time she is protected in the wilderness by God Himself.

[Keeping Alert]

The nations associated with the destruction of Damascus (Syria), Gaza, Lebanon (Tyre and Sidon), Jordan (Moab, Ammon,Edom), Egypt,( listed in Isa 14-17, Jer 47-49, Zech 9, Amos 1, Ps 83), are associated together in destruction but they are absent from the list of nations at Gog-magog. As these nations would be present at Gog, it appears likely that they are dealt with prior to Gog, as Isa 17 appears to describe.

Thanks, 1whowaits! I hold this view as well. There is a interesting book which I have not read called "Israelestine" which talks about the differences between Ps 83 war and Gog/Magog but I have seen interviews of the author explaining his views.

Could this war prior to the 70th week which starts with peace be mistaken for Armaggedon by the world? And therefore, the world accepts this world leader who brings peace as the Messiah? I think it could. And just to "tease" you a little, would not a pre-trib rapture prior to the Ps 83 war mimic a post-trib rapture prior to Armaggedon and Peace? What say you?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

2 Thessalonians 2:6-10
3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The lawless one in this context is the son of perdition, the antichrist who seats himself in the temple displaying himself as God- this is not a nation but a man, whom the Lord will slay- meaning kill. The antichrist will be killed and then likely resurrected and cast alive (eternally) into the lake of fire. Which is the eternal place of punishment where all the wicked will be sent after the final judgment.

RT

[Seeker]

Hi Resurrection Torchlight,

Seems right on the money to me, good work.

Peace,
Seeker

[1whowaits]

Seeker, RT, when i read Rev 19 i don't see any possiblity of the AC being killed and raised from the dead- 'Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet...the two of them were thrown alive into the firey lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse...'

The beast is alive and is present with the armies of the nations when Jesus returns. Then the beast is captured, no mention is made of him being killed, in fact the scripture points out that he is cast alive into the lake of fire. The scripture further points out that those that were with the AC are killed with the sword, in contrast to the AC who is captured and is alive. If the AC had been killed prior to being cast into the lake of fire, the scripture would have included him in the description of those who were killed by the sword, but he is not there, he is specifically described as being alive and by implication not killed with the sword as the rest are.

Of course it would appear likely that the moment the human body of the AC hits the flames of the lake of fire his body will be consumed by the fire, and in that instant 2 Thess would be fulfilled. Jesus merely speaks the word and the AC is captured and cast into the lake of fire, the AC would be literally overthrown by the breath of the mouth of Jesus and destroyed at His coming, as 2 Thess states.

Jesus does destroy the AC in the lake of fire, but there is no indication that the AC is killed prior to that time and resurrected, which would contradict Rev 19.

[1whowaits]

KA, i would see the sequence as being an attack by the nations immediately surrounding Israel, (or terrorist groups of Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, in those countries acting as surrogates), possibly using WMD, destroying a major city in Israel resulting in the destruction of Damascus and the forces in Lebanon, Gaza, Jordan and Egypt. This would likely result in a forced peace by the quartet, the UN, US, EU and Russia, and possibly the elimination of WMD from that theater, including Israel's nukes.

The quartet would likely guarantee Israel's security, and divide Israel and Jerusalem to placate the muslim nations (Zech 1). This could then set the stage for the larger battle of Gog-Magog in which the larger remaining muslim forces come against Israel when she dwells in security. If the one or more of the guarantors of Isreal's security had an 'evil' thought, they would see Israel as peacful and unsuspecting, and Israel would be unsuspecting of one nation in particular.

Because of the devastation at Gog-Magog (i believe there may be an asteroid strike as in the 1st and 2nd trumpets), the presence of the evil leader Gog, and the visible rescue of Israel by God, some might mistake Gog-magog for armageddon and assume that the DOTL had arrived. When Jesus would not appear after this event the mistaken expectations of some would be dashed and they would 'fall away'.

As far as a pre-trib rapture in this scenario, i guess it would occur prior to the destruction of Damascus. So if Damascus is destroyed and you are still here, it is likely that you will remain here for the duration of the 70th week until the rapture occurs prior to armageddon at the end of the week.

[1whowaits]

Seeker, RT, i have a theory and would like to respond to your point about Gog not being mentioned elsewhere in scripture, which God appears to refer to in Ezek 38- 'Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel?'

I believe the attack by the northern 'locust' army in Joel 2 is a reference to Gog-Magog, as is the attack by the locusts (possibly led by Gog) in Amos 8. But there may be other passages that refer to Gog but are not recognized, because Gog may be known by another name.

As the AC is known by more than 1 name, the beast, the little horn, the man of lawlessness, so also Gog may be known by more than 1 name. There are 2 passages of scripture that appear to describe an association between Satan and a particular individual.

Ezek 28 appears to describe Satan and also an individual that is consumed by fire, as the AC will be- 'So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.' This could be consistent with the destruction of the AC who will be cast alive into the lake of fire, which as the lake of fire is likely in the spritual realm and heaven is open when Jesus returns, could be an event visible to those on earth. In Ezek 28 the AC would then be called the king of Tyre.

But there is another individual associated with Satan in Isa 14, one that appears to be killed and buried in a mass grave, which would be consistent with the demise of Gog- 'The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you...they will say to you... you have become like us...you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit...you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit. Like a corpse trampled underfoot, you will not join them in burial..'

The individual in Isa 14 is clearly dead, but he is not given a proper burial, he is not in a tomb as the other kings are but he is covered by dead bodies, those slain by the sword likely in war, this individual is like a corpse that is walked upon, he is not in a tomb but a mass grave, as Gog will be.

And this individual who does appear to meet a death and burial consistent with that of Gog is known by another name, the king of Babylon.

There is a Babylon that is destroyed at armageddon according to Rev 16, when God pours out His wrath upon Babylon.

But there is another Babylon, one that appears to be destroyed at a different time, one that is destroyed in association with the destruction of Damascus. Jer 49 describes the destruction of Damascus and then goes on to describe the destruction of Babylon in Jer 50-51.

Isa 17 also appears to make an association between the destruction of Damascus and that of Babylon in Isa 13. And Isa 17 appears to make an association between the destruction of Damascus and the destruction of the land of 'whirring' wings, whirring wings being associated with the wings of the locust (the locust army of Joel 2?).

Gog-Magog, those who loot and plunder Israel, appears to be associated with the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17. The king of Babylon appears to be another name for Gog, and the king of Babylon is described in several passages of scripture, especailly in Jer 50-51, Isa 13, etc. Gog may be described by the prophets of Israel is several places, but just by another name.

So who could be seen as a Babylon now? Who currently rules the land of Babylon? Who would Israel be unsuspecting of if thier forces gathered to the ME? Is there a king of Babylon that could rally the muslim nations? Who might loot and plunder because of economic collapse? Who might Gog be?

[Keeping Alert]

As far as a pre-trib rapture in this scenario, i guess it would occur prior to the destruction of Damascus. So if Damascus is destroyed and you are still here, it is likely that you will remain here for the duration of the 70th week until the rapture occurs prior to armageddon at the end of the week.

Thanks, 1whowaits. I agree

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

I think it is easier to grasp when we think of it like this. How many times does God defeat the enemies of Israel,in Israel, with Israel returning to Him forever after? That is really the essence of it. We read of God rescuing Israel after a chastisement period in many places in the OT and NT. It is a common theme. If these all were different accounts we would have God stepping in on behalf of Israel 10 to 12 times that I know of in the bible. Israel returning to their land forever with God in the midst of Israel over and over again. This type of event can only occur once. God can only rescue Israel forever once if you see what I mean.

The real key clue is God saying to Gog that He spoke of him through the prophets of Israel. Prophets as in plural. This means that Gog has to be written about by several prophets. The only stories similar to the Gog story are the "day of the Lord" type passages. I look mainly at the ending of each prophets account. They all end the same with God defeating the enemies arrayed against Israel and dwelling in the mist of His people in Jerusalem (millennium). Then of course we have "this is the day He spoke about" in Eze 39. The events at the end of both Eze 38 and 39 match other day of the Lord events.

Now concerning those enemies of Israel. They are mentioned by name so not hard to track down. When we view all these prophets of old stories as the same story we can see that a common set of enemies are always mentioned by name. All those enemies surround the tiny nation of Israel today and have vowed to drive her into the sea. The enemies that the bible says are the enemies of Israel in the end are currently the enemies of Israel and are determined to wipe her off the face of the earth.

Ezekiel 38 begins with a very specific list of nations. Since Gog and the AC are one and the same we can know then who leads the Armageddon attack...Gog.

Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Gog is in the land of Magog and is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Most scholars agree that Meshech and Tubal were located in the ancient Turkey/Armenia area.

Eze 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

Iran, Ethiopia/Sudan, and Liyba. All muslim enemies of Israel in league with Gog chief prince of the Turkey area.

Eze 38:6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Gomer I am not sure of but Togarmah was also part of ancient Turkey. Some say Gomer was as well. A big emphasis on what we know as Turkey today. Interesting enough Turkey is the only ally Israel has in the middle east. They have been pushing to mediate the middle east peace which I believe they will get. Gog/Turkey will know Israel is at peace because he helped orchestrate that peace at the beginning of the last 7 years. Turkey is the only muslim nation Israel trusts how convenient. Recently relations have started to break down a bit between Turkey and Israel. Turkey's PM, Mr. Erdogan, has been bashing Israel about war crimes in Gaza lately. He has been letting his real feelings surface over the last couple of years. Turkey is ever increasingly anti-semetic but yet a strong military/economic bond still exists between the two. The Arabs are almost worshipping Mr. Erdogan for his recent stances against Israel, wishing their leaders would stand up to Israel. The Arabs are looking for a strong leader and Turkey is strongly looking to lead the region. A united Arab world will most likely be Daniels 10 nations lead by Turkey. All the enemies ever spoken of by name in the bible are muslim today and currently enemies of Israel, with the exception of Turkey/Gog who I think sets up the false peace.(EDIT TO ADD:Turkey may have just moved officially away from Israel by providing military assistance to Iran concerning any Israeli strike, see Turkey thread for latest updates) Isaiah 10 and the next several chapters show the enemies of Israel being defeated. Damascus is included. The Damascus event has a clear timestamp included in it.

Isa 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Isa 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 17:13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

The day Damascus is taken care of is the day men will look to their God and have respect for the Holy One of Israel. Clearly at the end after the wrath. Also 17:13 shows nations/plural. Damascus is not an isolated event but occurs with what Isaiah has been describing since chapter 10. Isaiah is decribing the same thing Ezekiel is. A group of nations being destroyed because the way they treated Israel.

Isa 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

At the conclusion of Gog, the Lord is in Israel. Everywhere in scripture we see the Lord victorious in Israel we see the conclusion of Gog. Each different prophet tells the story from a slightly different perspective but they all have a common set of events. This allows us to throw all the details together into a big box of the same story. The key events in each story includes Israel being nearly wiped out in Israel, God fighting for Israel in Israel, Israel returning to her promised land, and Israel returning to the Lord forever after. Any story with those main ingredients is the Gog story God spoke of through His prophets of old. When we read all the different stories we get a ton of information to process. Since they are all the same story then all the details in each story relate to the other prophets versions. All those seperate little details paint a complete picture of the endtime events. Those details are like the mud holding the logs of a log cabin. They bind the main ingredients together like the mud binds the logs. The whole bible speaks of Jesus and his defeat of the enemies of Israel. It is His story in a very real way from cover to cover.

Peace,
Seeker

[1whowaits]

Seeker, to arrive at the conclusion that Gog-magog and armageddon are the same event, one must make generaliztions and overlook the details and differences noted in scripture. If the scripture makes note of significant differences between 2 events, those differences are there for a reason.

Scripture clearly states that at armageddon 'all nations' gather against Jerusalem, Jesus returns and sets foot on the mount and physically destroys the gathered armies. Israel mourns for Jesus when they see Him and accepts Him as Messiah and King, and Jesus physically rules from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

At Gog-magog a limited number of surrounding nations specifically listed in scripture come against the mountains of Israel. Gods sends fire and destruction against the armies, but is not described as physically returning and setting foot in Israel. Israel knows that the Lord is God, but there is no mourning for Jesus, no description of a millenial reign, no description of a king in Israel after Gog.

After Gog Israel knows that God is the Lord and the Lord no longer hides His face from Israel, which sounds nothing like Jesus returning and Israel accepting her Messiah. Israel no longer profanes God's name, which Ezek 36 states is a reference to Israel being sent into captivity by God and His name being profaned because Israel could not stay in the land.

Ezek 39 does not say that Israel will stay in the land forever, just that God will not send Israel into exile Himself. Ezek does not say that Israel will remain faithful from then on, but only that Israel will know that God is the Lord, which was the condition of Israel in the OT.

And not all passages that mention the term DOTL are describing the same event. Ezek 30 and 32 mention the DOTL and the sun and moon being darkened at a past destrcution of Egypt by Babylon. Joel 2 describes an attack by a northern army and mentions the DOTL but describes this event as being separate from the 'great and terrible' DOTL, armageddon, in Joel 3.

Prophetic scripture can be much more complicated than we assume and using broad generalities while overlooking specific details can cause us to miss what is really going on in a passage. Isa 11 states that God will regather Israel from several gentile nations twice, and if He regathers them twice, they likely aknowledge God twice and return to Him twice. God can rescue Israel twice and God can pour out His Spirit on Israel twice, as Israel can be regathered to the land twice (Isa 11).

I realize understanding prophetic scripture is difficult, sometimes it is easier to look for the generalities and ignore the differences to arrive at a conclusion. But the last ones that did ignore the specifics of prophetic scripture missed the first coming of their Messiah, the details pointed to 2 separate comings of the Messiah which they overlooked, which demonstrates for us that the precedent of events occurring twice has been set in scripture.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Just so no one misunderstands my view- I do not believe that Gog/Magog are the same event. I believe that Gog /Magog occurs (begins)around the middle of the 70th week. Just before or concurrent with the AOD. This battle will continue throughout the second half of the "week" until the bowls begin to be poured out, when God then turns His attention toward those who went against Israel and Jerusalem. All the nations will join with Gog/Magog to battle their final foe- God Himself and the Lord's allies- Israel. Gog and his armies will defend Jerusalem, while IMO the other nations will gather at Armageddon. Jesus will return first to Jerusalem, to the mount of olives, splitting the mount and making a way of escape for the nation of Israel that remains there. There he will slay Gog and his allies, and then He will move swiftly to destroy the rest of those at Armageddon. That's my take on it.

I believe that Jerusalem itself might be Babylon, though I am not certain about it, but scripture makes a strong case for this. That's a topic for another discussion though.

RT

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

Scripture clearly states that at armageddon 'all nations' gather against Jerusalem, Jesus returns and sets foot on the mount and physically destroys the gathered armies. Israel mourns for Jesus when they see Him and accepts Him as Messiah and King, and Jesus physically rules from Jerusalem for 1,000 years.

All doesn't neccessarily mean all. For instance.

Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Did Nebuchadnezzar rule over everywhere men lived on earth? No Babylon just ruled over the middle east.

Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

The third kingdom of brass was the Greek kingdom led by Alexander. Did Alexander rule over "all" the earth? No again mainly just the middle east. Let's look at Zechariah 12 for a minute.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

By the way for anyone following this thread Zec 12 is another view of the end of the Gog war which is also the end of the Armageddon war. They end at the same time. Armageddon is basically just the end of the Gog-Magog battle. See here in Zec 12 we have the common ingredients I have been talking about.

1) Nations invading Israel
2) Lord defends the inhabitants of Israel in that day
3) God pours His spirit out upon Israel

Same as Ezekiel 38-39 so we see another view of the Gog war here in Zechariah 12.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

The nations around Israel have her under siege, it's those "round about" that come against her. Round about means those that encircle Israel. So it says He will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the neighbors surrounding Israel.

Zec 12:2 Behold,H2009 IH595 will makeH7760 (H853) JerusalemH3389 a cupH5592 of tremblingH7478 unto allH3605 the peopleH5971 round about,H5439 when they shall beH1961 in the siegeH4692 bothH1571 againstH5921 JudahH3063 and againstH5921 Jerusalem.H3389

H5439
סביבה סביב
sâbîyb sebîybâh
saw-beeb', seb-ee-baw'
From H5437; (as noun) a circle, neighbor, or environs; but chiefly (as adverb, with or without preposition) around: - (place, round) about, circuit, compass, on every side.

All that nations that surround Israel or on every side of Israel but not every nation on earth. In this case we know for sure Zechariah is talking about the return of Jesus which involves destroying the nations. Zechariah does not mean every nation on earth.

The story continues on into Zec 13.

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Zec 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec 13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Now we can add the final link showing that Zec 12-13 is also talking about the Gog battle.

1) Nations invading Israel
2) Lord defends the inhabitants of Israel in that day
3) God pours His spirit out upon Israel
4) After God rescues them they say He is their God just as in Eze 39.

I'll respond to different sections of your post with different posts to keep the topics seperated and easier to follow for me.

Peace,
Seeker

[1whowaits]

Seeker, it looks like 'all nations' is pretty difinitive for armageddon. Joel 3:2- 'I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat..., 3:12' -let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations..' Zech 12:3 'On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock..', 12:9- 'On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem...', 14: 2- 'I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it....' 14:16- 'Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem...'

This description of 'all nations' being gathered occurs at only 1 event- 'they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty...then they gathered the kings together to the place in Hebrew is called Armageddon...Rev 16, 'Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse..'Rev 19

At Gog-Magog there are a few nations listed, nothing even close to 'all nations' of the earth. At the destruction of Damascus only a few nations are associated, nothing near 'all nations' of the earth.

The description of 'all nations' is definitive and specific for armageddon and no other battle. At the destruction of damascus where are the rest of the nations? At Gog-magog where are the rest of the nations? They are not mentioned as being part of these battles, but they are mentioned at armageddon.

And i think you may have missed a difference between Gog-Magog and armageddon in your sequence. In Zech 12 and Ezek Israel is attacked but in Zech 12 Israel mourns for the One who was pierced, Jesus, and the Spirit is poured out prior to God (Jesus) rescuing Israel and destroying the nations in Zech 14., while in Ezek the Spirit is poured out after God rescues Israel and destroys the nations.

So for Gog-magog the sequence is-
a few nations gather against Israel
God rescues Israel and sends destruction and destroys the armies
God pours out His Spirit
Israel knows that God is the Lord

The sequence for armageddon is-
all nations gather against Jerusalem
God pours out His Spirit on Israel when they look upon the One who was pierced and mourn for Jesus
Jesus sets foot on the mount and rescues Israel and destroys the gathered nations personally
Israel knows that Jesus is her Messiah and king and He rules for 1,000 year from Jerusalem

According to Ezek and Zeck 12 and 14 the sequence is different, at Gog the Spirit is poured out after the rescue, at armageddon the Spirit is poured out prior to the rescue.

[Seeker]

Hi, 1whowaits,

We have gone round and round about this and there is no use continuing discussing this with you. The ending of Eze 38-39 has events that only occur during and after the wrath of God; believe what you want but Armageddon is just the ending of the Gog war.

Peace,
Seeker

[bchandler]

1whowaits,

In addition to the differences you have noted, the geography of Gog-Magog and Armageddon are completely different as well. These are not the same battles/wars. Gog-Magog appears to occur as a lead in to the time of Jacob's trouble, while Armageddon appears to be the culmination of it.

Another difference to note is the way in which the 2 different armies are destroyed. So... nope... not the same battle, not the same place... not the same people groups involved... not the same method of destruction... not the same... at all!

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

There are several problems with not viewing the end of Gog as Armageddon.

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

After Magog and many isles are torched they shall know God is the Lord. They and the heathen (Gentile nations) know God is the Lord and yet they attack again in Israel later on???

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Israel will not pollute God's Holy name any longer. So if Israel has stopped polluting God's name then why is the AC allowed to refine them? The heathen (Gentile nations) will know the Lord is the Holy One in Israel. It is done the day God has spoken of. What day can you find in the bible that describes Gog?

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Israel will be burning weapons while the AC is utterly destroying her???

Eze 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze 39:15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

Jewish people wondering around marking graves while the AC is hunting them down like dogs?

Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

The AC tries to attack Israel after witnessing Gog's massive defeat and knowing it was the hand of God that protected Israel at the Gog battle???

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

This would indicate national repentence to the Lord. So God simply ignores this and allows the AC to destroy Israel after this?

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

The Gentiles will know God hid His face from them and it was God that gave Israel into their hands...And then knowing the only reason they were ever victorious over Israel was because God allowed it, they attack again???

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

God has mercy on the whole house of Israel and then allows the AC to nearly wipe Israel off the map???

Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

After they bore their shame they live safely in the land again...Safely with the AC trying to drive them into extinction???

Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

They have been gathered out of their enemies lands and God is sanctified in them by many nations, He will no longer hide His face from them, pours His spirit out upon the house of Israel, and then let's the AC wipe Israel out...????

Really guys think about what you are trying to say here. What use is it for God to defeat Israel's enemies in Israel, gather Israel from her enemies lands back to Israel, have mercy on all of Israel, pour His spirit upon all of Israel, have Israel acknowledge He is their Lord as well as all the heathen nations see it and then allow the tribulation in Israel. It makes God's redemption of Israel shown in Eze 39 worthless if the AC is then allowed to come in and destroy Israel while she is under the hand of God in the good sense. It makes absolutely no sense and certainly does not match what these scriptures show. These events can only occur at the very end just before the millennium when Israel returns to the Lord.

Peace,
Seeker

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Maybe I can make the point more understandable- There is a war but within a war are many battles. Like the invasion of Normandy in WWII, or the battle for Felujah (sp?) in the Iraq war. There is always a battle that starts a war, and then there is one that ends it. Gog/Magog starts the war, Armageddon ends it. Gog/Magog is the campaign against Israel which continues throughout the second half of the week, while armageddon, which does bring in the other nations, decides the victor and puts down all the enemies including Gog and his forces. Just because all nations are gathered in the end, doesn't negate the idea that is began with a specific set of nations. It also doesn't detract from the demise specific to those nations that began the campaign against Israel.

The second world war, began with a specific nation- Germany, who later gathered alliances. But in the end Germany was defeated along with those alliances. When we talk about the enemy being defeated we always talk about Hitler. Even though there were others allied with him. The USA joined her allies late into the conflict- there is no contradiction to say that Gog/Magog begins the war and Armageddon ends it with Gog the enemy being defeated. The very idea that those who come against Jerusalem after the 1000 years are also called Gog/Magog shows who those are that are defeated at Armageddon. These who turn against Jerusalem after the millennium is ended are the descendants of those who are left at its beginning- those who went against Jerusalem at Armageddon. They repopulate the earth God calls them Gog/Magog which shows that those who were left at the end of the 70th week when the millennium begins are also Gog/Magog survivors not the armies themselves but those who are left of the nations that came against Jerusalem.

RT

[lamb7]

Gog of Magog:

(1) And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, “Thus says the Lord God, ‘Behold, I am against you, Gog (i.e., antichrist), chief prince of Meshech and Tubhal. (2) And I will fetch you back, and conduct you, and bring you up from the far reaches of the north. For I will make you come to the mountains of Israel. (3) Then I will strike your bow from your left hand, and make your arrows fall from your right hand'”.
Ezekiel 39:1-3

In our previous discussions of Ezekiel's description of Gog of Magog (in part 3B of this series: “Antichrist”, section II.1.c.1), we saw that Gog is synonymous with the beast, while Magog means “the place of Gog”. That is to say, in our prophetic context Magog is mystery Babylon (MGG via the use of the Hebrew cryptographic technique of athbash stands for LBB = BBL = Babel).46 It is true that the consonants are reversed in the cryptogram (i.e., a direct correspondence would require Babylon's cryptographic name to be “Gogam”). But “Magog” is a historical name (he is one of the sons of Japheth: Gen.10:2), so that the reversal is used no doubt to preserve the identification with mystery Babylon without altering the historical name and so losing that part of the analogy.47 For it is precisely by using the historical name “Magog” that the power center of this future invader of Israel is plainly located for the reader in the far north, the historical locale of Japheth's second son.48 Now while eschatological Babylon is, strictly speaking, in the west, historical Babylon is in “the north” in terms of biblical geography, and, until her destruction at the end of the Tribulation, is indistinguishable from the revived Roman empire as part of antichrist's dual base of power. Thus, for Ezekiel's listeners, the association of “Gog”, the future invader of the land, with “Magog”, one of if not the most remote of the northern nations, not only conveys in contemporary terms a perfect picture of what will actually happen, but also allows us with the benefit of later prophetic details to take things a step further and identify “Magog” with prophetic Babylon for the reasons already delineated. Further, if we see in the root of the names “Gog/Magog” a doubling of the Hebrew word for gentile, (goy, גוי), then “Magog” will mean something like “archetypical gentile nation”. And with eschatological Babylon being, in ethnic terms, on the one hand more representative of more Japhetic nations than any other single nation, and on the other hand more polyglot in general than any other nation, the use of “Magog” to represent mystery Babylon as the homeland of the beast (he is “chief prince” of Magog) and the lynchpin of the dual confederation presided over by Magog (composed of the two parts, Meshech and Tubhal) makes perfect sense. There are, moreover, many indications throughout the context that show of a certainty that Ezekiel is speaking exclusively of far future events in chapters 38-39, and specifically of the events of Armageddon:

1) The Lord Himself repeatedly stresses His own role in assembling all of His enemies worldwide for this final showdown and their destruction (Ezek.38:3-4; 38:7; 38:16; 39:2), something which never happens before Armageddon (and certainly not in the two previous campaigns between antichrist and the southern alliance).

2) Gog's confederacy indisputably includes both peoples from around the world, and clearly from the south as well as the north working in unison, so that it is clear that this is a worldwide undertaking unlike any preceding campaign in Israel, including the preceding campaigns of the Tribulation.

3) The occasion of burying the bodies of the Lord's enemies afterward Armageddon in chapter 39 (to be covered in part 6 of this series) suggests no further satanic activity thereafter but a time of unprecedented peace and prosperity (esp. Ezek.39:25-39). In all of human history after Eden, only the Millennium fits the situation so described. Additionally, the length of time required for this cleanup (cf. especially the “seven years” of Ezek.39:9) is clearly inconsistent with the immediate arrival of New Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium (following the similarly named Gog-Magog assault on Jerusalem directed against the rule of the Messiah). On this last point, at the end of the post-millennial Gog-Magog rebellion, we are also told that “fire came down from heaven and devoured” this final set of rebels, so that there would be no bodies to bury in that case (Rev.20:9).

4) The statement at Ezekiel 39:26 that “they will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward Me when they lived in safety” must be looking back to the contemporary and tribulational situation, not to the time of the perfect rule of Christ during the Millennium (when there will be no such “shame” or “unfaithfulness”; e.g., Jer.31:33-34). Moreover the following verse, Ezek.39:27 sets the time frame as still future: “when I have brought them back from the nations”, namely, the regathering of Israel by divine agency after the 2nd Advent at the conclusion of the battle of Armageddon (as distinguished from the present political situation; cf. Is.60:8ff.; Zech.8:23).

5) The great earthquake mentioned in this context is an event which precedes the 2nd Advent (i.e., around the time of the seventh bowl judgment: compare Ezek.38:19 with Rev.16:18).

6) There is only one human army described here, that of antichrist, showing that this is not one of the earlier campaigns of antichrist against the south or an earlier historical invasion, but the predicted arraying of the nations against the Lord and His Anointed at Armageddon (Ps.2).

7) The way in which the warriors of the beast kill each other is also consistent with other 2nd Advent-Armageddon passages (compare Ezek.38:21-22 with Zech.14:13).

8) The plague of hail at Ezekiel 38:22 is, as we have seen, also a well-known pre-cursor of the 2nd Advent-Armageddon (cf. Rev.16:21).

9) The Lord uses the destruction of Gog's army to make Himself and His power known to the world (Ezek.38:16; 38:23; 39:6), something that only happens at its most emphatic at the 2nd Advent during the battle of Armageddon (cf. Rev.1:7; 19:11-16).

10) The bodies of the dead providing food for the birds is also a 2nd Advent-Armageddon reference (compare Ezek.39:17ff. with Rev.19:17-18).

11) The fire which is poured out upon Magog (Ezek.39:6) is in part a reference to the same event as the fiery destruction of Babylon in Revelation 17-18 (although with the phrase “even upon those of the coast-lands who live in safety”, we have an expansion of the judgment to more of the west after Armageddon; see part 6 of this series).

12) Ezekiel 39:36 speaks of the regathering of Israel as a result of which there will be “no one to make them afraid” any longer, a clear reference to the peace and security of the Messiah's millennial kingdom.

(2) “Son of man, set your face against Gog (i.e., antichrist) of the land of Magog (i.e., Babylon, the home kingdom of the beast) [he who is] chief prince of Meshech and Tubhal (i.e., Revived Rome). Prophesy against him (3a) and say ‘Thus says the Lord God. Behold, I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubhal.
Ezekiel 38:2-3a

Just as Ezekiel's reference to historical Magog refers prophetically to the beast's home country, Babylon, so his use of Meshech and Tubhal, also sons of Japheth, is likewise focused on future rather than contemporary events. The pairing here of these two ancient nations reveals to us that in addition to ruling his own “super-nation”, Babylon, antichrist also holds sway over a larger, composite empire (a.k.a., “revived Rome”), one consisting of two essential parts and named here “Meshech and Tubhal”.49 Thus, as in the case of Magog, these names are given to Ezekiel by the Spirit in order to express future prophetic realities in geographical terms understandable to his contemporary readers. For our purposes here in examining the beast's Armageddon campaign, we can say that the core of his invasion force will be composed of the same set of armies he used to conquer the south, that is, the armed forces of the west and the north, that is, of (now destroyed) Babylon and her allies and of the revived Rome and her allies respectively. However, since both Meshech and Tubhal are mentioned, we can be sure that the second part of antichrist's revived Roman empire, the newly conquered southern alliance (i.e., the three horns out of the ten which fall before the small horn in Daniel 7:8), will also contribute her entire complement of military might (and we has also seen from Rev.16:12 that the east will contribute as well).

(3b) “And I shall bring you back [here again] (i.e., for Armageddon). (4) For I shall put my hooks in your jaw and make you come, [you] and your entire army of horses and horsemen, all of them fully arrayed [in battle gear], a vast multitude, all of them with shields and bucklers and carrying swords. (5) Persia, Cush, and Put will be with them, all with shield and helmet, (6) Gomer, and all her hordes, Beth-Togarmah (i.e., “the house of Torgarmah”) [at] the recesses of the north and all her hordes, a host of [allied] nations with you [O Gog]. (7) Make thorough preparations, you [O Gog] and all your troops who have gathered together around you, and be on your guard for them."
Ezekiel 38:3b-7

This passage demonstrates that bringing the beast and his hordes to Jerusalem in order to destroy them utterly is unquestionably “of God”, while the image in verse four of our Lord physically impaling Gog and his armies with a hook and dragging them to the slaughter of Armageddon states in the most unequivocal terms the irresistible nature of the divine plan to defeat this final offensive of the devil and the devil's chosen one, and to do so in an unprecedentedly decisive way. For it is the Lord who will “bring you back”. The Hebrew verb here (shabhabh, שבב) indicates quite unmistakably that Gog has been in Israel before (a reference to antichrist's prior residence in Jerusalem). This theme of Gog being led to his destruction by the Lord in the manner of Pharaoh is later emphatically repeated in the above quoted beginning of chapter 39:1-3 as well where the Lord renews His pledge to “bring Gog back” to Israel, adding that He Himself will “conduct you” (i.e., the Lord's facilitation of a rapid and complete arrival of antichrist's forces to Jerusalem),50 “bring you up from the far reaches of the north” (“up”, as always because of Jerusalem's relative elevation; “the north” is precisely the region whence antichrist will begin the campaign) and, finally “make you come”. This last phrase shows us once again that in spite of the beast's and the devil's enthusiasm for this evil crusade, the Lord is the One who is leading them on to a complete annihilation that is already firmly determined in the plan of God, precisely as He led Pharaoh into the Red Sea only to dispose of him and his army in an equally complete and miraculous manner.

The following verses describe in vivid terms the sheer size of this expedition which will constitute the largest and most powerful force ever brought to bear against a single objective in world history (v.4 “a vast multitude”, and cf. the muster list later in the chapter). Nor should we assume based upon the excessively large numbers involved that the quality of these troops will be substandard: 1) it will be an entirely mechanized force (v.4 an “entire army of horses and horsemen”); 2) it will be an exceptionally well equipped force (v.4 “all of them fully arrayed [in battle gear]”, “all of them with shields and bucklers and carrying swords”); 3) it will be a force composed of “1A” regulars and veterans, the best each political entity has to offer (v.5 “all with shield and helmet”). And in spite of the swiftness of its mustering and the rapidity of its assembly in the theater of operations, it will not for all that be either disorganized, or unprepared, or operating without proper plans or orders. For the Lord Himself is seen here to give the command and to offer encouragement to the beast and his general staff to put forth their very best effort in this regard as well (v.7 “Make thorough preparations, you [O Gog] and all your troops who have gathered together around you”, and “be on your guard for them”). In short, this will be absolutely the largest, best equipped, best trained and prepared, most professional combat force conducting the most effective operation in world history – and that is precisely the point. Were the defenders reduced to mere human means, they would stand less than no chance before antichrist and his irresistible Blitzkrieg. But it is the Lord whom they will meet at Armageddon, and the sharp sword that proceeds out of the mouth of the glorious Messiah, the Son of Man, our Savior Jesus Christ (Rev.19:15; cf. Is.1:20; 49:2; Heb.4:12; Rev.1:16; 2:12; 2:16).

As to the nations listed in verses 3-7 above, these can be broken down into three essential groupings: 1) Persia, Cush, and Put; 2) “Gomer, and all her hordes” along with “Beth-Togarmah [at] the recesses of the north and all her hordes”, and 3) “a host of [allied] nations”. As to the first group, these nations are representative of the south and, specifically, of the three regional powers of the southern alliance now subject to the beast (i.e., three of the ten horns that form the revived Roman empire; cf. Dan.7:7; 7:20; Rev.12:3; 13:1; 17:3-16). Persia may be taken to represent Iran and the central Asian power center (Turkey to Kazakstan). Put refers to Libya and represents North Africa. Cush, in biblical terms usually refers to Ethiopia but sometimes also to Mesopotamia (cf. Cush, the father of Nimrod who operated in that region: Gen.10:8), and in our context probably has both meanings, referring to the arc of southern kingdoms from Ethiopia and Sudan across the Red Sea and into Arabia and Iraq. Egypt is notably missing from this description no doubt because as the head of the southern alliance she suffered especially grievously at the hands of antichrist after their defeat (cf. Ezek.30:2-26; 32:11-15).

“For I will spur on Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight one against his brother and another against his friend, a city against a city and a kingdom against a kingdom (i.e., the splintering of the triple coalition). And Egypt's spirit will be emptied from the midst of her, for I will confound her plans, although they consult their idols and mediums and oracles and familiar spirits. And I will hand Egypt over into the hand of a cruel master (i.e., antichrist), even a stern king (i.e., antichrist; cf. Dan.8:23) [who] will rule over them, says the Lord God of hosts.”
Isaiah 19:2-4 (cf. Is.19:5-17 compared with Is.19:18-24)

In the second grouping we find only two subdivisions, Gomer and “the house of Togarmah”. That is because these two sons of Japheth represent the twin pillars of the beast's power during the first half of the Tribulation, the west from whence he sprang (and which until only just recently was dominated by the now destroyed Babylon), and the north (that is, the first seven kingdoms of revived Rome), conquered in the early days of the Tribulation. Gomer and Togarmah, often taken to be the Cimmerians dwelling in the terra incognita of the northern steps and the somewhat less remote Armenians,51 thus represent from the biblical perspective the more and the less exotic quadrants of the world respectively, namely, the (in Ezekiel's time) unknown west and the somewhat less mysterious north. With the addition of the final element in verse six, “a host of [allied] nations with you [O Gog]”, we have a reference to the last of the world's four quadrants, the east, now brought into this final conflict by specific divine facilitation represented by the “drying up” of Euphrates to “prepare the way for the kings of the east” at Revelation 16:12 in the sixth bowl judgment, “Armageddon” (cf. Rev.16:16). In the clearest possible terms his contemporaries could fathom, Ezekiel has thus through his delineation of the muster list of antichrist demonstrated through the Spirit that this mobilization will be worldwide in its scope and massive in its implementation.

(8) “Many days from now you [and your forces] will be mustered. At the end of the years (i.e., at the end of the 6,000 years of human history just prior to Armageddon) you will come to a land restored from the sword, [to a nation] gathered out of many peoples, [you will come] against the mountains of Israel which had [previously] been [in a state] of continual devastation. (9) When you come up [against the land of Israel] you will come like a cataclysm. You will be like a [storm] cloud and cover the land, you and all your hordes and the many peoples with you.”
Ezekiel 38:8-9

For the many reasons already delineated (i.e., the list of twelve given above), what is being described here is not the end of the Millennium, but rather that political situation as it will obtain on the eve of Armageddon. The passage is very careful not to say that the inhabitants of the land have been regathered “by the Lord” (the process of this prophetically necessary pre-Tribulation regathering is already far advanced in our time of course). Further, while the situation in Israel on the brink of the beast's invasion will be one of “restoration from the sword”, nothing more is implied by these words than a breathing space from war and domination by others (and certainly not the much anticipated prosperity of the Millennium). The fact that the world in general and the government of Israel with her ally Babylon had imprudently anticipated antichrist's demise as he disappeared into the darkness of the fifth bowl judgment will merely make the short respite all the more disappointing. For the contrast between the anticipated end to the beast's rule and all the concomitant evils of the Great Tribulation will be jarring as the newfound peace and tranquility dissolves into the cataclysm of this advancing storm.

(10) Thus says the Lord God, “It will come to pass on that day that thoughts will rise in your heart and you will devise an evil plan. (11) For you will say, ‘I shall go up against [that] land of unfortified towns and villages. I shall attack those who are at peace, all living in [false] security, all of them inhabiting [towns and villages] without defenses (lit., “bars and doors”, i.e., city gates).' (12) [For you shall] take plunder and take spoil and set your hand against [previously] desolate places which are [now] inhabited, and against a people [recently] gathered from the nations and now in the process of acquiring livestock and property and dwelling at the center of the world. (13) Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her nobles will say to you, ‘Have you come to take plunder? Have you gathered your troops to carry off silver and gold, to take [their] cattle and property, to take much loot?'”
Ezekiel 38:10-13

In no further need of the Jewish state and eager to punish them for their unfaithfulness, antichrist at the behest of his father the devil has conceived the “evil plan” of annihilating the Jewish race now heavily concentrated in this single location. As at the present time, the indications are that during the Tribulation the Jewish state has continued to rely on the strategy of counter-attack and mobile rather than static defenses. While generally a superior approach for a highly skilled armed force, against vastly numerically superior and equally skilled opponents attacking simultaneously from every direction, the lack of any significant fixed fortifications will be sorely felt, and, as the scriptures above suggest, will place the Israeli army at a considerable disadvantage. We may expect that, as news of the beast's re-emergence and of his mustering of the worlds armies for Armageddon reaches Israel, it will occasion a frantic effort to construct makeshift forts and entrenchments throughout the land, and especially around the capital of Jerusalem. To the rest of the world, however, the imminent demise of the Jewish state will seem certain, so that the international merchant class, represented by the traders of Sheba, Dedan and Tarshish (noted trading nations of Ezekiel's day representing from their relative geography vis-à-vis Israel the mercantile interests of the south, west, and north respectively), will be looking forward to the opportunity of trafficking in what promises to be a wholesale liquidation of all property within the borders of the Jewish state just as soon as antichrist's mission is accomplished. The eagerness visible in the verses above is not doubt accentuated by the fact that the seven years of tribulation have taken their toll on the world and its wealth (not to mention that their best customer, Babylon, has just recently been obliterated), but Israel, as the headquarters of the beast and his religion for the past three years has benefitted economically significantly more than any other nation, though that “benefit” has come at the extremely high cost of having to experience the presence of antichrist and his anti-God rule more directly than any other nation.

(14) “Therefore prophecy, son of man, and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God. On that day when My people are living [in false] security will you not realize it? (15) For you will come from your place, from the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding horses, a huge multitude and a vast army. (16) And I will bring you up against my people Israel like a cloud covering the earth. At the end of days (i.e., in the last days, the Tribulation: cf. Is.2:2) it will come to pass that I will bring you against my land so that the nations may know Me (i.e., understand who I am) when I show forth My holiness in their sight by [destroying] you, O Gog'.”
Ezekiel 38:14-16

Finally, it should also be pointed out here that the essential strategy of Armageddon has been developed by Satan, and that Israel is really not so much the target as she is the bait, for it is the true of essence of the devil's mad plan to force the issue in one place and at one time in a final confrontation of all the forces he can muster, human and angelic, with the Lord Himself (e.g., Ps.2:1-3; Rev.16:14). But of course the entirety of all creature effort is a laughable pittance in the face of the least expression of divine power. Just as the Lord raised up Pharaoh for the very purpose of displaying His power and proclaiming His Name (Ex.9:16; cf. Rom.9:17), so all the devil's efforts through the mobilization of more human might than has ever been deployed in one place in world history will only serve to “show forth my holiness in their sight by [destroying] you, O Gog” (Ezek.38:16).

[The Orange Mailman]

I'm not going to say that Gog and the antichrist are the same person. But the slaughter of Ezekiel 39:17-20 is an exact description of Armageddon. The birds are supernaturally summoned here to devour the flesh of the massive army just slain. It is the same in Revelation 19:17-18. In Daniel 11:40-45 the king (antichrist) has another king of the north which comes at him. It is possible that this king of the north is Gog. However, all nations are deceived during the sixth bowl and supernaturally drawn to their doom at Armageddon, whether they are at war with the antichrist and his ten nation confederacy or not.

Seeker is absolutely correct to point out that after this slaughter that the house of Israel nationally enters into that covenant relationship with the God of Israel. God pours out His Spirit upon them as a nation, Ezekiel 39:29. This is a parallel passage to Zechariah 12-14 and Joel 2:28-32. Also, Ezekiel is clarifying what he previously prophesied about Israel receiving His Spirit in 36:22-32. This includes the second exodus, one that will surpass the exodus from Egypt. So I don't see how anybody can say this leads into Daniel's 70th week. This is at the end of the week when Israel is converted as a nation. Ezekiel is prophesying of one end for his people. Ezekiel 37:24-28 should be read here as well. All these passages about God making an everlasting covenant with the nation of Israel occurs after He has led them through the time of Jacob's trouble.

Now if I could just get you all to see that Ezekiel 38:8-23 is AFTER the millennium. It is AFTER many days during a time of peace for Israel. There is no passage in scripture that speaks of peace for Israel before the end of the age. Jeremiah 32:36-41 and 33:14-18 make is quite clear that Israel SAFE dwelling occurs when the Davidic King rules from Jerusalem when the everlasting covenant has been established. So there will be no covenant that allows Israel to dwell safely before the Messiah reigns from Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Luke 21:24.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[lamb7]

Now if I could just get you all to see that Ezekiel 38:8-23 is AFTER the millennium. It is AFTER many days during a time of peace for Israel. There is no passage in scripture that speaks of peace for Israel before the end of the age. Jeremiah 32:36-41 and 33:14-18 make is quite clear that Israel SAFE dwelling occurs when the Davidic King rules from Jerusalem when the everlasting covenant has been established. So there will be no covenant that allows Israel to dwell safely before the Messiah reigns from Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Luke 21:24.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Mailman,

Are there not two battles under the name Gog-Magog? The one during the Tribulation and the one when satan is loosed after the Millennium?

At Armageddon, the bodies have to be buried and the weapons are burned. At the end of the Millennium, there are no bodies because they have been burned up and thrown into the Lake of Fire?

That is what distinguishes the two, for me.

Ezekiel
6"And I will send (E)fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the (F)coastlands in safety; and they will know that I am the LORD...

11"On that day I will give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off those who would pass by. So they will bury Gog there with all his horde, and they will call it the valley of Hamon-gog.

12"For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.

13"Even all the people of the land will bury them; and it will be to their renown on the day that I glorify Myself," declares the Lord GOD.

14"They will set apart men who will constantly pass through the land, burying those who were passing through, even those left on the surface of the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search.

15"As those who pass through the land pass through and anyone sees a man's bone, then he will set up a marker by it until the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog.

Here we see that there are bodies to bury and weapons to burn. This is the battle at Armageddon.

Revelation 20
7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Here we see that there are no bodies, they have been burned up. Although Ezekiel v. 6 says that "And I will send fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the coastlands." This fire does not consume the bodies, they are laying everywhere, as scripture details vividly. At the end of the Millennium, there is no need for any burials or clean up. They are thrown into the "lake of fire and brimstone." As to the difference of "being burned up" and then also "being thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone", I cannot fathom the meaning. I can only submit that the burning and throwing happen all at once in a way that only the Father could accomplish, but that there is no evidence of the aftermath.

Please, what are your thoughts on this. I see two very different elements here. One seems so final, and the other does not.


In Christ,
lamb

[1whowaits]

Lamb7, i would agree that 2 different scenarios are being presented, but it appears that only the AC and FP are cast into the Lake of Fire after armageddon, Rev 19 states that the rest are killed with the sword (and would go into the lake of fire at the end of the 1,000 years at the GWTJ).

And the bodies are disposed of in different ways after Gog and armageddon, as you point out. After Gog the bodies, and their parts, are gathered and buried in a mass grave.

After armageddon the bodies are not buried, they 'rot' or dissolve- 'This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths...A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.' Zech 14 This also appears to be indicated in Isa 29- 'But your enemies will become like fine dust, the ruthless hordes like blown chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, the Lord Almighty will come...'

After Gog the armies are buried in a mass grave, after armageddon the armies 'rot' where they stand and are dissovled into smaller pieces. After Gog the wild animals and birds feed on the dead (big parts left), after armageddon only the birds feed on what is left (birdfeed- only small parts left).

[lamb7]

Lamb7, i would agree that 2 different scenarios are being presented, but it appears that only the AC and FP are cast into the Lake of Fire after armageddon, Rev 19 states that the rest are killed with the sword (and would go into the lake of fire at the end of the 1,000 years at the GWTJ).

And the bodies are disposed of in different ways after Gog and armageddon, as you point out. After Gog the bodies, and their parts, are gathered and buried in a mass grave.

After armageddon the bodies are not buried, they 'rot' or dissolve- 'This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths...A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.' Zech 14 This also appears to be indicated in Isa 29- 'But your enemies will become like fine dust, the ruthless hordes like blown chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, the Lord Almighty will come...'

After Gog the armies are buried in a mass grave, after armageddon the armies 'rot' where they stand and are dissovled into smaller pieces. After Gog the wild animals and birds feed on the dead (big parts left), after armageddon only the birds feed on what is left (birdfeed- only small parts left).

1WW, you are calling it Gog and Armageddon. Do you not agree that in Revelation Gog is mentioned again, after the millennium? Are you saying after Amageddon...there are bodies to be buried, but after the Millennium...they are destroyed by plague, where they stand? I am confused in your wording.

As an aside, what a vision to witness in the verses you put forth. What a way to go.


In Christ always,
lamb

[The Orange Mailman]

Hi Lamb 7-

Check it out. Only Ezekiel 38:8-23 applies to AFTER the millennium. Ezekiel 38:1-7 gives us the details of Gog invading from Magog toward the end of Daniel's 70th week. God intervenes and turns them around leading them on by the (symbolic) hooks in his jaws. This thought is continued in chapter 39 which tells where Gog and company are led to: the mountains of Israel. So Ezekiel 39 (entirely) is the event at the end of Daniel's 70th week. But the section beginning at 38:8 describes a period of time AFTER MANY DAYS which is a description of the millennium and continues through verse 23.

At Armageddon, the bodies have to be buried and the weapons are burned. At the end of the Millennium, there are no bodies because they have been burned up and thrown into the Lake of Fire?

I agree because chapter 39 matches up with the events of the battle of Armageddon. The cleansing mentioned here will occur during the millennium.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[1whowaits]

Lamb 7, i am attempting to point out that Gog-Magog and armageddon are 2 separate events, and that the Gog-Magog of Ezek and that of Rev at the end of the millenium are 2 separate events.

Prior to Gog in Ezek, Israel does not know God and after Gog Israel is completely regathered to the land. This would not be consistent with Gog-Magog at the end of the millenium in Rev as Israel would know God prior to Gog as Jesus would rule from their midst for 1000 years and there is no indication that Israel leaves the land during the millenium so no regathering would be required. So there is a Gog-Magog I in Ezek and Gog-Magog II in Rev.

So the destruction in the lake of fire does not occur until the end of the millenium after Gog II, so at Gog I the armies are buried while at armageddon they 'rot where they stand'.

Armageddon and Gog magog I are not the same event as -
1)Jesus returns at armageddon, Jesus is not described at Gog-magog
2) Gog and the AC are destroyed differently and are therefore 2 different individuals
3) God pours out His Spirit after the battle of Gog in Ezek but the Spirit is poured out prior to armageddon in Zech 12
'4) All nations' gather at armageddon while only a few nations are present at Gog
5) the armies at Gog are killed and buried in a mass grave while the armies at armageddon 'rot where they stand' and there is no indication of burial
6) God sends destruction at Gog while Jesus sets foot on the earth and destroys the armies directly staining His clothes with their blood at armageddon
7) the armies of Gog are killed on the mountains of Israel while at armageddon Jesus goes as far as Bosrah in Jordan to destroy the armies at armageddon
8) prior to Gog Israel dwells in saftey in the middle of the land while prior to armageddon Israel is protected in the wilderness by God
9)prior to Gog Israel does not know God while prior to armageddon Israel does likely know God while she is protected in the wilderness by God and 1/3 of the nation remains faithful according to Zech 13

While there are some similarities between Gog-Magog and armageddon, the differences between Gog and armageddon are significant and cannot be resolved. The logical conclusion would then be that they are 2 different and separate events, imo.

[kirthril]

Lamb7, i would agree that 2 different scenarios are being presented, but it appears that only the AC and FP are cast into the Lake of Fire after armageddon, Rev 19 states that the rest are killed with the sword (and would go into the lake of fire at the end of the 1,000 years at the GWTJ).

And the bodies are disposed of in different ways after Gog and armageddon, as you point out. After Gog the bodies, and their parts, are gathered and buried in a mass grave.

After armageddon the bodies are not buried, they 'rot' or dissolve- 'This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths...A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.' Zech 14 This also appears to be indicated in Isa 29- 'But your enemies will become like fine dust, the ruthless hordes like blown chaff. Suddenly, in an instant, the Lord Almighty will come...'

After Gog the armies are buried in a mass grave, after armageddon the armies 'rot' where they stand and are dissovled into smaller pieces. After Gog the wild animals and birds feed on the dead (big parts left), after armageddon only the birds feed on what is left (birdfeed- only small parts left).

this.
Another thing to point out that noone has mentioned:
Armageddon: All the invading armies are destroyed
Gog-Magog: 1/6th of the invaders are turned back

Armageddon: every nation fights
Gog-magog: Arabian penninsula protests

[1whowaits]

kirthril, the pushing back of the northern army is described in Joel 2, which i would agree is a description consistent with Gog-Magog. The northern army's front columns are pushed back to the eastern sea, likely the dead sea, and the rear columns are pushed back to the western sea, likely the Mediterrean sea. The northern army, consistent with Gog, is pushed back and destroyed in the area between the Dead sea and the Med sea.

This is in contrast to armageddon where Jesus is pictured as coming back from Bozrah covered with the blood of the trampled nations, Bozrah being located beyond the Dead sea to the east in Jordan, outside of the area that is described in Joel 2 for what appears to be Gog.

While Joel 2 does appear to be consistent with Gog-Magog, the attack of the northen army, Joel 3 appears to be consistent with armageddon, when 'all nations' attack Jerusalem. And Joel 2 does appear to place a division between the attack of the northern army, Gog, and that of 'all nations' in vs 28, by using the term 'and afterward', implying that the events of Joel 3, armageddon, occur sometime after the attack of the northern army, Gog-Magog, in Joel 2. Joel 2 also describes the moon being turned to blood before the great and terrible day, armageddon of Joel 3, again implying that the events of Joel 2 occur sometime prior to armageddon.

This is in contrast to Ezek 38 and 39 which do not place a separation in the description of the battle that occurs, as some suggest. A straightforward reading does confirm that Ezek 39 does appear to be a continuation of Ezek 38, another separate event is not being described.

Ezek 39:26 does state- 'they will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid.' This statement is a reference to the condition of Israel prior to the battle that had just taken place. Prior to armageddon Israel is in the wilderness persued by Satan who wishes to destroy her, which would be inconsistent with the statement of Ezek 39, she is not in her land and someone is making her afraid. The statement would be consistent with the condition of Israel prior to Gog-Magog, as described in Ezek 38, which would then confirm that the 2 chapters, Ezek 38 and 39, are describing the same event, Gog-Magog.

[Seeker]

Hey Orange,

Now if I could just get you all to see that Ezekiel 38:8-23 is AFTER the millennium. It is AFTER many days during a time of peace for Israel. There is no passage in scripture that speaks of peace for Israel before the end of the age. Jeremiah 32:36-41 and 33:14-18 make is quite clear that Israel SAFE dwelling occurs when the Davidic King rules from Jerusalem when the everlasting covenant has been established. So there will be no covenant that allows Israel to dwell safely before the Messiah reigns from Jerusalem. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Luke 21:24.

I have looked at this several times but can't see what you are saying. I understand what and why you say it but don't see it in the scriptures.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

They are described as being brought back to a land that has been waste. How would the current time fit into that view? Israel currently isn't waste but it was waste prior to 1948. So I guess I see this as the current gathering in Israel. Then when Gog attacks they are dispersed among the nations for the last time. This land Gog invades is a land brought forth out of the nations so they may dwell safely; all of them. That was the exact intent of the world when they allowed the creation of Israel in 1948. Eze 38 would fit the scenario of the covenant with many in Dan 9:27 being a peace treaty with Israel's Arab enemies. The AC/Gog establishes the covenant with many at the beginning of the last 7 years only to break it at the middle of the last 7 years which is described of the beginning of the worse tribulation Israel will ever see. Compared to the second half of the last 3 1/2 years the first would be peaceful. Eze 38:8 looks to me to describe the conditions we see in Israel currently, they were gathered back to the waste land and have refurbished it at this time to the envy of their enemies surrounding them.

Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Gog invades for the spoils. The picture I see is they were gathered back to the land of waste, made it productive again, and now Gog knows they are resting without bars or gates (defences) because of the peace treaty he helped to institute shown in Dan 9:27. How would the land be waste after the millennium with Christ ruling over it? They wouldn't have been gathered out of the nations at the ending of the millennium.

Peace,
Seeker

[The Orange Mailman]

Hey Seeker-

Thanks for the response. I forget that everyone else doesn't think like I do. In my mind, we should look at the scripture and accept it at face value. We shouldn't look at current circumstances and think "it doesn't fit". So I'll explain a bit more about how I view this.

First of all, the gathering mentioned here must be the second exodus spoken of in Jeremiah 16:14-15. Although spoken of in general terms here, later in Jeremiah 23:3-8 we see that only when the Messiah rules over Israel will this second exodus supplant the first exodus in terms of greatness. The return to Jerusalem after the 70 years exile was not the second exodus. The rebirth of the nation of Israel was not the second exodus. There remains something yet future for the regathering of Israel. Isaiah 24-27 spells it out as well. It will follow the time of turmoil, the resurrection, and the wrath.

So when I read Ezekiel 38:8, I see the second exodus following the great tribulation. When I read the safe dwelling, I see the terminology so frequently used of the Messianic Kingdom, see Jeremiah 23:3-8, 32:37-41, and 33:14-18. So therefore, with that foundation, when I read the AFTER many days, I read after the second exodus, after the safe dwelling of the Messianic kingdom, basically, after the millennium. The text speaks that Gog will be dealt with, turned around, but later, AFTER many days, it's going to happen again, but this time, to a people which have already been regathered and are now dwelling safely.

Now as far as the continual waste on the mountains of Israel (following ESV), this is a future characteristic of the mountains of Israel. In Ezekiel 39 we see that this is the place where Gog and company fall the first time, premillennially. I believe this spot to be where the slaughter of Armageddon is to take place. After the wrath of God being displayed in such a fashion, it will create a place of waste that will be uninhabitable even despite the cleansing to take place during the millennium. Isaiah 34 also speaks of this and perhaps Isaiah 30:33 and Isaiah 66:24 as well. It will serve as a testimony much the same way the Dead Sea did after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. This once fruitful plain (Genesis 13:10) was now transformed into a crater for the Jordan to fill with water and become uninhabitable. The Dead Sea will be revatilized in the Messianic Kingdom (Ezekiel 47:8), so a new location for uninhabitability will serve as a reminder for God's wrath in the age to come.\

I hope that explains my view a bit better.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Seeker]

Hi Orange,

Very interesting and plausible but I still think the Gog in Eze 38 is the premillennial Gog. I just don't see a natural break in the text which would indicate the story changed.

Ezekiel 38-39 (English Standard Version)

Ezekiel 38

Prophecy Against Gog

1The word of the LORD came to me: 2(A) "Son of man,(B) set your face toward(C) Gog, of the land of(D) Magog, the(E) chief prince of(F) Meshech[a] and(G) Tubal, and prophesy against him 3and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold,(H) I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech[b] and Tubal. 4(I) And I will turn you about and(J) put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and(K) all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great host, all of them with buckler and shield, wielding swords. 5(L) Persia,(M) Cush, and Put are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; 6(N) Gomer and all his(O) hordes;(P) Beth-togarmah from(Q) the uttermost parts of the north with all his hordes—(R) many peoples are with you.

14"Therefore,(AJ) son of man, prophesy, and say to(AK) Gog, Thus says the Lord GOD: On that day when my people Israel are(AL) dwelling securely,(AM) will you not know it? 15You will come from your place out of(AN) the uttermost parts of the north, you and(AO) many peoples with you,(AP) all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army. 16You will come up against my people Israel,(AQ) like a cloud covering the land.(AR) In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog,(AS) I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=ESV

I was looking at the ESV since you mentioned it to help me see how you were seeing it. The Gog from before 38:8 has with him Beth-togarmah (Togarmah KJV) from the unttermost parts of the north. Togarmah was in the ancient Turkey/Armenia area described as the uttermost north. Eze 38:15 says that Gog (after Eze 38:8) is also from the uttermost north. Same geographic description. Now Gog is leader of Meshech/Tubal (Turkey/Armenian area) which would also be uttermost north since Togarmah is also in the Turkey/Armenia region and is decribed as the uttermost north. Seem to be talking about the same Gog, the regional Gog I'll call him.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The definition of Gog/Magog here seems to be global consisting of nations in the four corners of the earth. So again I just think Eze 38 & 39 basically relate the same story twice from different perspectives. I do understand and see what you mean now and it makes a lot of sense but I just don't see it in what is written in Eze 38. I view the final regathering (second exodus) as the end of Eze 38 as well as the end of Eze 39 following the defeat of Gog. Isa 34 has the heavens rolled up as a scroll which is also part of Rev 6. Tying the regathering of Israel to the beginning of the millennium rather than the end, in my view at least.

Peace,
Seeker