It Is Finished!

[Mr Baldy]

Good day -

As I have read multiple topics on this forum relating to the 70th week of Daniel - I felt led to open up a new topic to discuss the total and complete Work of Christ.

All of Scripture points towards Him, as it was the Fathers Will to have our Lord worshiped throughout eternity before the foundation of the World. I think it's important to actually visualize and think about how we view Christ. What we see when we pray - and worship Him? How our own individual relationship is with Him - in our walk toward achieving Eternal Life. Jesus Christ is the ONLY God we will ever see.

I want to begin by mentioning a passage of Scripture that literally brings tears to my eyes each time I read; hear; or speak it. It's my favorite passage of Scripture, as it illustrates - at least to me, the Supremacy of Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:15-20 - NASB

15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19) For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

I provided this illustration of Christ as identified by Scripture to set the foundation for this topic of discussion. It's so vitally important that we develop some form of understanding about who He is in order to rightly divide His Word.

The 70 weeks of Daniel - and the identified decrees listed in Daniel 9:24 are as follows:

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

I contend that the aforementioned passage of Scripture has been grossly misinterpreted in the past - and in today's eschatological view of End Times. The prophet Daniel identifies that 70 weeks have been decreed for these events to have come to completion. I personally believe it was finished at the Birth, Ministry, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

I want to put this in practical terms to point out what Daniel is saying about these 70 weeks:

We must understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Jesus, there is 69 of the 70 weeks mentioned - and AFTER the 69th week - or IN the 70th week Jesus is crucified. The people of the prince who is to come destroyed the city and the sanctuary (Titus & his Army.) - This happened in 63 - 70 AD.

The aforementioned verses end at Daniel 9:26. This is important to know, as we can clearly see that Christ was crucified in the 70th week - so therefore the days, weeks, years, and months continued. Nothing Stopped as far as time. In reading Daniel 9:24-27 in it's entirety, we must determine if this is a continuous fulfilment of all decrees mentioned in verse 24; or is there some form of "GAP" period implied - leaving either 7 years unfulfilled; or 3.5 years unfulfilled in that Christ is "Cut Off" in the middle of the 70th and final week?

Continuing with Daniel 9:27

"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

The "he" mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is Christ - as confirmed by Matthew 26:28:

Matthew 26:28 - NASB

for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

In Daniel 9:27 it became obvious to me that there are Two Individuals mentioned here. Christ - who confirms the covenant by pouring out His blood for "many" - and the coming Antichrist that makes desolate.

Though the Birth, Ministry, Death, and Resurrection of Christ I personally believe the decrees set forth have been fulfilled. IT IS FINISHED!

There are many who believe there will be a Third Temple - or some form of animal sacrifice will be performed in the Millennial Kingdom. I wholeheartedly disagree with this notion - as it indicates the Work on the Cross done by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was not sufficient. I further believe it is a direct slap in His face by believing His Death was not enough; in that the blood of animals need to be reinstituted. This services absolutely NO purpose whatsoever.

It should also be understood that when the disciples inquired from Jesus about His Return - He never mentioned the Covenant or anything to do with 7 years. He mentioned the AOD - which I believe will be the starting point of the Final 3.5 years described throughout Scripture relating to the time prior to His Return.

I further believe that the Final 3.5 years are not related to the 70 weeks determined - and is a separate prophecy by Daniel as mentioned in Daniel 12:1-10:

Daniel 12:1-10 - NASB

The Time of the End

1) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3) Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4) But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

5) Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6) And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” 7) I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8) As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9) He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10) Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.

*NOTE: I am still uncertain why some view how the aforementioned Prophecy is united to the 70 weeks.

In closing - those who believe that a final 7 year time period remains in order for Daniel 70th and final week to be completed really have to explain who is the "he" mentioned in verse 26; additionally, an explanation needs to be provided why in the continuum of the 70 week prophecy very clearly identifies Christ was crucified sometime AFTER the 70th and final week began.

Those who believe there is 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week in order for the decrees set forth in verse 24 to be fulfilled need to explain why Jesus' Birth; Ministry; Death and Resurrection wasn't sufficient - in that the chronology of events set forth directly point to Christ. The FINISHED WORK on the Cross is identified when Jesus says:

"IT IS FINISHED"

[Sonbeam]

Hi Mr B,

Just a couple of comments to let you know what I see in two of the passages you quoted:

Col 1:15-20 is one of my favorite passages too because it leaves no doubt about the deity of our Lord.

20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

But as I see it, verse 20 doesn't list all the things that Christ accomplished on the Cross. And I'll leave my explanation for another thread.

As for the following passage:

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

I see it differently than you do. I do not believe that "to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place" were fulfilled by the Cross. I understand you believe the whole passage was fulfilled by the Cross right?

1. Everlasting righteousness will be ushered in when Lord returns for His Bride and pours out His wrath on the world.

2. Vision and prophecy will cease when the two witnesses are killed just prior to the Lord's appearance.

3. And the anointing of the most holy place refers to the anointing (consecration) of the New Jerusalem.





sonbeam

[1whowaits]

Mr B, this part of Daniel 9 is directed at Daniel's people and their holy city (Jerusalem) only, it is not directed at anyone but the nation of Israel. Not Gentiles, not the church in general, no one but Israel.

And the goals set for the nation of Israel have not been accomplished yet so they therefore have future fulfillment. Israel finishes transgression, puts an end to sin, atones for wickedness, and brings in everlasting righteousness only when she repents of her sin, accepts Jesus' blood as their atonement, and accepts Christ which they will do in the future when they mourn for the One who was pierced in Zech 12. Zech 12 also discusses an end to prophecy 'on that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision...he will say i am not a prophet..'

There is a clear separation between the 7 sevens and sixty two sevens and the 70th seven. The Anointed one being cut off ends the 69 sevens and is separate from the 70th seven. The crucifixion would be associated with the 69th seven not the 70th seven.

Jesus cannot be the 'he' of the 70th week as Israel did not accept Jesus' New Covenant but instead rejected Jesus' covenant 'He was despised and rejected...' Isa. Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering in Israel, the sacrifices ended when the Temple was destroyed 40 years after Jesus, and Israel is at this time ready to resume sacrifice and offering when the Temple is rebuilt.

Dan 9 : 24-27 applies to Israel, and Israel has not completed the goals listed, not yet.

[Mr Baldy]

But as I see it, verse 20 doesn't list all the things that Christ accomplished on the Cross.

Hi Sonbeam - of course it doesn't list "all" the things Christ accomplished at the Cross. I don't think we can ever limit what He's actually done for us, or place Him in a box. My point was to provide an illustration of Who God is, in order for those who are believers, and read this Thread to consider our relationship with Him. There are some believers who don't comprehend even the basics of Christianity - which points to Christ; although they say they believe.

I see it differently than you do. I do not believe that "to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place" were fulfilled by the Cross. I understand you believe the whole passage was fulfilled by the Cross right?

1. Everlasting righteousness will be ushered in when Lord returns for His Bride and pours out His wrath on the world.
2. Vision and prophecy will cease when the two witnesses are killed just prior to the Lord's appearance.
3. And the anointing of the most holy place refers to the anointing (consecration) of the New Jerusalem.

Yes - we see it differently. The 3 decrees you mentioned were accomplished - and completed when He said: "It is Finished" prior to giving up His Sprit on the Cross. I think what we disagree on here is you think that these are things yet future - when Scripture clearly identifies the Kingdom of God is within us. Everything pointed to Christ.

Not really sure why you mention the two witnesses and how this relates to vision & prophecy ceasing.
Please elaborate

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, this part of Daniel 9 is directed at Daniel's people and their holy city (Jerusalem) only, it is not directed at anyone but the nation of Israel. Not Gentiles, not the church in general, no one but Israel.

Hi 1WW -

Thanks for your input - and we have a very fundamental disagreement here. When you suggest what you have mentioned, I'm not understanding where you are getting this from when Paul makes it clear about there being absolutely no distinction between the Jews and the Church if we believe in Christ. To suggest what you are saying is to believe that the Jews are separate, and will experience a different persecution.

I've said this once before...but I'll mention it again. Scripture is clear about "those He Foreknew" which includes people of all races, creeds, nationalities and colors. We are ALL one in the Body of Christ. We cannot get around this, and it should consider this when interpreting Scripture.

And the goals set for the nation of Israel have not been accomplished yet so they therefore have future fulfillment. Israel finishes transgression, puts an end to sin, atones for wickedness, and brings in everlasting righteousness only when she repents of her sin, accepts Jesus' blood as their atonement, and accepts Christ which they will do in the future when they mourn for the One who was pierced in Zech 12. Zech 12 also discusses an end to prophecy 'on that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision...he will say i am not a prophet..

To suggest what you are saying in your aforementioned comments is to imply that not a single Jew will go to hell - and as they see Jesus not a single one of them will perish. Additionally, you appear to imply that the Nation of Israel receives Salvation through corporate nationalism. This all would make a good sequel to the very fictional "left behind" series - but I'm not seeing this is how Salvation works in Scripture. Salvation is as individual as Judgment will be in determining our Eternal State.

One additional point on Israel … Israel is a secular Nation - and to believe that just because most are Jews they will be All be saved is a misinterpretation of Scripture.

The goals set forth in Daniel 9:24 were for the Body of Christ. It was when Daniel wrote it - it is today; for the future; and was before the foundation of the World. They were fulfilled in Christ.

There is a clear separation between the 7 sevens and sixty two sevens and the 70th seven. The Anointed one being cut off ends the 69 sevens and is separate from the 70th seven. The crucifixion would be associated with the 69th seven not the 70th seven.

You may want to reread Daniel 9:26 - as it very clearly states AFTER the 62 weeks; which includes the 7 prior weeks for a total of 69 weeks. This very clearly places His crucifixion in the 70th week - there's no doubt about it.

Jesus cannot be the 'he' of the 70th week as Israel did not accept Jesus' New Covenant but instead rejected Jesus' covenant 'He was despised and rejected...' Isa. Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering in Israel, the sacrifices ended when the Temple was destroyed 40 years after Jesus, and Israel is at this time ready to resume sacrifice and offering when the Temple is rebuilt.

We'll just have to disagree with Jesus being the "he" mentioned in Daniel 9:27. It's obvious the entire reading of this particular verse of Scripture has two very different individuals mentioned here - and they both absolutely cannot be the same.

Jesus did indeed put an end to sacrifice and offering. He IS the Complete and Total propitiation for sin.
(1 John 2:2) - There is no longer any requirement for the sacrifice of animals - nor is it necessary. And yes, I will have to agree with you that when the Temple was destroyed there was an end of sacrifice and offering as prophesized in the Book of Daniel; however, this only indicates it continued after the Crucifixion.

I disagree with a Third Temple being built - and it makes no sense that animal blood sacrifices will continue in the Millennial Kingdom. If there even is a Millennial Kingdom (another discussion for another time). The shedding of the Saviors Blood was sufficient enough!

Dan 9 : 24-27 applies to Israel, and Israel has not completed the goals listed, not yet.

The prophecies set forth in Scripture apply to the Body of Christ. Once again, I'll provide these passages of Scripture for as evidence:

Romans 2:28-29 - NASB

28) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9:6-8 - NASB

6) But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7) nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8) That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Romans 8:28-30 - NASB

28) And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6 - NASB

3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Galatians 3:28-29 - NASB

28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

In closing - If one cannot see in the aforementioned verses of Scripture that there is no distinction between the Nation of Israel and the Believer, then I don't know what to say. Until we understand that there is no special END TIME prophecy for Israel - and another for the Body of Christ as far as persecution and redemption are concerned - then I think we do ourselves a disservice.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, the distinction between the believer and the nation of Israel is that the believer believes in and has accepted Christ as Savior while the nation of Israel does not believe and has not accepted Christ. Individual Jews accept Christ and are part of the body of Christ now but the nation as a whole remains unsaved.

The point i am making is that scripture indicates in Zech 12-14 and in Romans 11 that in the future all the Israelis that survive until the time of Christ's return, the 1/3 faithful remnant of Zech 13 ( Paul indicates 'all Israel' because the rest of the Israelis have perished, so the 1/3 is all that is left alive), will accept Christ at the same time when they see Him coming in the air, before He sets foot on the ground at armageddon.

The 1/3 remnant will be saved the same way as everyone else, through belief in Christ. But God has designed it so that they, as the surviving remnant of the nation of Israel, come to Christ together in a unique event at the end of the 70th week fulfilling Dan 9:24 at that time.

As Israel is currently without Christ and will not accept Him until Christ's return at the end of the 70th week, Dan 9:27 cannot be fulfilled by Jesus as His Covenant was rejected by the nation of Israel (not necessarily by individual Jews), and His sacrifice is not applicable to Israel until they accept Him.

[Mark F]

Mr B, the distinction between the believer and the nation of Israel is that the believer believes in and has accepted Christ as Savior while the nation of Israel does not believe and has not accepted Christ. Individual Jews accept Christ and are part of the body of Christ now but the nation as a whole remains unsaved.

The point i am making is that scripture indicates in Zech 12-14 and in Romans 11 that in the future all the Israelis that survive until the time of Christ's return, the 1/3 faithful remnant of Zech 13 ( Paul indicates 'all Israel' because the rest of the Israelis have perished, so the 1/3 is all that is left alive), will accept Christ at the same time when they see Him coming in the air, before He sets foot on the ground at armageddon.

The 1/3 remnant will be saved the same way as everyone else, through belief in Christ. But God has designed it so that they, as the surviving remnant of the nation of Israel, come to Christ together in a unique event at the end of the 70th week fulfilling Dan 9:24 at that time.

As Israel is currently without Christ and will not accept Him until Christ's return at the end of the 70th week, Dan 9:27 cannot be fulfilled by Jesus as His Covenant was rejected by the nation of Israel (not necessarily by individual Jews), and His sacrifice is not applicable to Israel until they accept Him.

I agree with what you have written 1WW, I see that a believer is conveyed into a spiritual position, as Hebrews 12:23 says "...the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven..."

Daniel 9 clearly states it has to do with Israel and Daniel's people. From what I read, God plans on miraculously saving the unsaved Israelites at the end of the GT. I see a distinction in Scripture between the plans of God concerning the believer in Christ and God's plans and dealing with the Nation Israel to ultimately lead to their salvation. Individually they can be saved now, but collectively 1/3 will be saved by God opening their hearts and minds.

[1whowaits]

Mark, thinking about the implications of Israel coming to Christ at the end of the 70th week, basically at the last minute. When Jesus returns in the clouds all who believe in Christ and are still on the earth at that moment are caught up to Him and receive new bodies. They then return with Him to the earth and the armies of all the nations of the world are destroyed (trampled) by Him, leaving only non believing survivors of the nations, described in Zech 14, on the earth.

Except for little Israel. It appears that the surviving 1/3 remnant mourns for Jesus in Zech 12 while He is still in the air, prior to His setting foot on the ground at armageddon (Zech 14). So when Jesus sets foot on the earth, the only remaining believers still in human, non regenerated bodies on the earth would be the remnant of Israel, whom He rescues according to Zech 14, who then go in to the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

[Ready1]

When Jesus returns in the clouds all who believe in Christ and are still on the earth at that moment are caught up to Him and receive new bodies.

I'm sure that you probably have a good reason for this statement, but I have never seen it this way... Tell me your thought process or tell me in Pre Trib forum if you don't want to mess this up...

I agree with the rest of your possible outline

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, the distinction between the believer and the nation of Israel is that the believer believes in and has accepted Christ as Savior while the nation of Israel does not believe and has not accepted Christ. Individual Jews accept Christ and are part of the body of Christ now but the nation as a whole remains unsaved.

1WW - again, I'm not sure why you're still separating the Nation of Israel from the Body of Christ despite how many Scripture I've provided to include "For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" There is no distinction.

Let me put this in simpler terms..... The way Paul describes a Jew, and/or the Nation of Israel and Abrahams Seed; and or the Body of Christ there is NO Distinction. The people in Israel today - who have not accept Christ; are no different than anyone else in the World. I'm still not understanding why you're trying to provide some special salvation program to unbelieving Israel.

The point i am making is that scripture indicates in Zech 12-14 and in Romans 11 that in the future all the Israelis that survive until the time of Christ's return, the 1/3 faithful remnant of Zech 13 ( Paul indicates 'all Israel' because the rest of the Israelis have perished, so the 1/3 is all that is left alive), will accept Christ at the same time when they see Him coming in the air, before He sets foot on the ground at armageddon.

IWW - respectfully, the point you're making is pure conjecture, and speculation. Additionally, it cannot be supported with Scripture. When Christ Appears - there will be NO Second chances. We will be "Changed" in the twinkling of an eye - and gathered unto Him. To suggest what you are saying is to indicate Israelis ONLY will see Him coming in the air - they will then miraculously have the wherewithal to immediately repent of their sins, and be changed - all within this same twinkling of an eye. Sorry - but this makes no sense to me, and cannot be supported by Scripture.

The 1/3 remnant will be saved the same way as everyone else, through belief in Christ. But God has designed it so that they, as the surviving remnant of the nation of Israel, come to Christ together in a unique event at the end of the 70th week fulfilling Dan 9:24 at that time.

- Really now???? - Do you see your very own contradiction? First you say that the 1/3 will be saved the same way as everyone else through Belief in Christ. Then you say "BUT"....


Again, pure conjecture. So you are suggesting that God has designed a way - DIFFERENT for this "remnant of the nation of Israel" to come to Christ than any other member of His Body? And what is this "unique event" you have mentioned

As Israel is currently without Christ and will not accept Him until Christ's return at the end of the 70th week, Dan 9:27 cannot be fulfilled by Jesus as His Covenant was rejected by the nation of Israel (not necessarily by individual Jews), and His sacrifice is not applicable to Israel until they accept Him.

Sometimes I wonder if the Scriptures I provided are actually being read by those who respond for debate. Very often opinions and conjecture are provided - instead of viewing the Scripture, and indicating where I may have misinterpreted. To suggest what you have mentioned here is to suggest that Paul has been inconsistent with what he wrote in Romans 9. So in other words, you appear to be implying that Paul may be contradicting himself when he clearly writes "For they are not all Israel who descended from Israel"; "A Jew is not a Jew outwardly" - and "If you belong to Christ you are Abrahams descendants, heirs to the promise."

I want to point out one more thing that you mentioned which is crucial:

His sacrifice is not applicable to Israel until they accept Him.

What you wrote in your aforementioned comment seems to grossly contradict 1 John 2:2

1 John 2:2 - NASB

2) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Please consider the aforementioned verse of Scripture and compare it to what you wrote. Again, Israel is NOT a separate entity from the rest of the World. I think we really miss it when we want to view Israel, and/or the Jews as some sort of "special people" or Nation. WE are the Body of Christ - and if we believe in Him we are the descendants of Abraham - Scripture is very clear about this.

In closing - Israel and the Jews as a Nation have no special rite of passage to Christ or Eternal Life. The plan of Salvation was given to the Jews and God dealt with Israel as a Nation to foreshadow all things that would ultimately lead to Christ. It's ALL ABOUT JESUS. Until we understand that, then we totally miss the point.

Jesus was not always Flesh - the Word became Flesh and made His dwelling among us. (John 1:14) - Everything pointed to Christ. Through His Birth, Ministry, Death , & Resurrection - IT IS FINISHED.

When He Appears the Second Time - THAT'S IT. I believe Scripture is very clear about this. There will be no mortals residing with immortals in what most believe is the Millennial Kingdom - as "flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 15:50) There will be no special rite of passage to accept Him when He Appears:

Revelation 22:11-12 - NASB

11) Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

12) “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

So very respectfully 1WW - if you're going to challenge what I present - and I welcome all debates - please point where my interpretation in Scripture may be in error. I feel that opinions should be stated as such as most of what you have posted so far, has not been supported with Scripture; and has been nothing more than conjecture based on your interpretation.

[Mr Baldy]

Daniel 9 clearly states it has to do with Israel and Daniel's people. From what I read, God plans on miraculously saving the unsaved Israelites at the end of the GT. I see a distinction in Scripture between the plans of God concerning the believer in Christ and God's plans and dealing with the Nation Israel to ultimately lead to their salvation. Individually they can be saved now, but collectively 1/3 will be saved by God opening their hearts and minds.

Hi Mark F -

Interesting comments -

So.... You think the entirety of Daniel 9 has to do "with Israel and Daniel's people?" What about the Body of Christ; those whom He Foreknew before the foundation of the World?

To suggest what you have written is to suggest that they are the only ones effected by the decrees set forth and these same decrees don't apply to those who come to faith in Christ.

Additionally, you indicate the "Time of Jacobs Trouble" or the Great Tribulation and how it applies to unsaved Israelites. Furthermore, you mention you "see a distinction in Scripture between the plans of God concerning the believer in Christ and God's plans and dealing with the Nation Israel to ultimately lead to their salvation."

Can you please provide the Scripture you're mentioning?

Based on what you have written - it appears God has a plan of Salvation by means of Corporate Nationalism

How does a Nation stand before God in Judgment to determine it's Eternal State as it relates to Salvation

The Bible I read says that we EACH must give an account of our own lives to God( Romans 14:12)

[keithareilly]

Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

All men have already been justified. Yet they have not all been reconciled.

A woman was married to a man who was abusive. She loved him. She said to him. I love you and I forgive you. Nevertheless, if you do not stop being abusive, I must leave you to protect myself from your behavior. He responded. "I have the right to behave as I chose. You do not get to tell me what to do". She said "yes", your behavior is your choice, not mine. But, until I you repent of your behavior, I must keep you at a distance. And she left him. To this day she waits for him to change his behavior so she be reconciled with him. But, he has not changed his behavior so she cannot yet reconcile herself with him.

Both Forgiveness and repentance are required for reconciliation.

Christ paid the price for our sins and God justified all men nearly 2000 years ago. Everlasting righteousness was made available to all men, not during the 69th week, but, after the 69th week, and because everlasting righteousness must come during the 70 weeks, the 70th week must have been the week in which it came.

Forgiveness and everlasting righteousness are available today and have been available for nearly 2000 years. God grants us freedom, he does not stop the murderer for murdering, he does not stop the thief from stealing. What prevents everyone's reconciliation with God is our choices, for reconciliation, we must do our part: repent.

Repentances is now the only remaining thing that prevents any person, including jewish persons, from reconciliation to God. It has been this way for nearly 2000 years.

Doubt that? Then read Acts 2:37-39 and see that Peter tells those who killed Christ, the Jews, the only things hindering their reconciliation with God are: repentance and baptism (If you don't repent, you won't let yourself be baptized).

Acts: 2:37-39
37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

God's part is Finished. Now we each must do our part.

Keith

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Why is it members on this forum still have a problem with understanding the End Times?

From my perspective it is because of their insistence that all the prophecies in the Book of Revelation have been placed in chronological order and the order is taken by how they are presented in the Book of Revelation.

19 years ago after the 9/11 events, I went searching the scriptures to see if the 9/11 events could be found in the scriptures. It required me to be open to accepting that the order of the prophecies in the Book of Revelation to be not in the order in which we read them.

In reading, I came to the conclusion that the Sixth Bowl judgement in part best described the events of the planes being foul and unclean spirits through John's recorded imagery of seeing something that looked like frogs when viewed from below like when the frogs are jumping from one place, i.e. like a tree, to another. The people of the whole earth and their kings were able to see the signs and wonders of the three planes crashing into the twin towers in New York and the Pentagon in Washington to begin the process of drawing the kings/leaders of the earth together at Armageddon at a future date in time, around some 40 years later after 9/11.

When considering all of the bowl judgements, at that time I realised that the first five recorded bowl judgements had not happened at that time. It is now, in recent times, that I have come to understand that the Seventh Bowl judgement occurred over the last 100 plus years when Babylon was recognised as a nation once more and Jerusalem was divided into three distinct areas under the control of three parties, i.e. Jordan, Britain and the UN, both of which happened in the last century in which many wars occurred because of the turmoil between the nations in the great wars.

Because of my new understanding from the 9/11 event, I have had to modify my understanding of the order of when the prophecies in the Book of Revelation will occur. In effect, the order of when the prophecies would occur had been hidden from me until I had this insight concerning when Armageddon will occur. Since this insight, I have been able to also see how the Biblical prophecies all dovetail together such that the judgement of the heavenly hosts in heaven and the kings of the earth, on the earth, at the same time (Isa 24:21-22) was describing the time of the Armageddon Judgement who had been responsible for the trampling of God's sanctuary and His earthly Hosts over a period of 2,300 years, and their imprisonment in the Bottomless Pit for a period of 1,000 years.

This means that the tribulation occurring at this present time is associated with the Time of Jacob's troubles and that the Great Tribulation will only occur after the Judged Heavenly Hosts and the Kinks of the earth are released after the 1,000 years of their imprisonment in the Bottomless have passed.

If our respective understanding of the end times is still hidden from us, then the respective understanding of when the end time events will occur will also be hidden from us and we will flounder around in the mire of our understanding.

Yes, Christ will be seen at the Armageddon judgement, judging the assembled kings of the earth, after which all of Israel will be saved/redeemed and the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and God's possession among the Gentiles covenant will be made like new again and the basis of their faith will be then founded on the stone that comes down out of heaven and becomes the highest mountain in the whole earth. After this time of judgement, Christ will return to heaven to assume His Priestly role for another 1,000 years.

The other mill stone that is stopping our understanding is the belief in a Pre-trib rapture, but the rapture will only happen just after the time of the Great Tribulation which is still 1,000 plus years into our future.

God's commission today is still for His Saints to lay down their lives as humble servants to make disciples of the people of the nations to show them the way to Zion.

I wonder how well we are able to do just that at this present time when so many saints have been blinded to God's understanding as recorded in scripture?

It seems to me that the Church has a way to go in repentance for their deeds towards the Jews in our past. As such the church's leaders will also be judged at Armageddon for their trampling of God's earthly Hosts on the earth in the past history of the church.

Shalom

[1whowaits]

Ready 1, in response to your inquiry, i am considering the implications of Zech 12-14 and Israel accepting Christ when they look on Him at armageddon. Zech 12 and 14 do describe armageddon when all the nations of the earth surround Jerusalem and attack the city and Jesus sets foot on the mount and splits it and He rescues Israel.

At the time when Israel looks on the One who was pierced and mourns, Zech 12 indicates that the clans are gathered together already in Judah and Jerusalem, they are besieged and being attacked prior to Jesus arriving on the scene- 'I will gather the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it, the city will be captured...half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city'. Zech 14

The Jews are in the city and are surrounded and are being attacked and taken from there, some remain, but they are not being gathered to where Jesus arrives to rescue them, they are mourning for Him before He sets foot on the mount while they are in Jerusalem.

This is in contrast to the 'gathering' to Jesus of the elect by the angels in Matt 24- At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four wins, from one end of the heavens to the other.'

The elect of Matthew are gathered from the 4 winds, from widely scattered areas of the earth (and the grave?), they are not under siege in 1 particular location such as Jerusalem. So clearly the 'elect' are not the nation of Israel who are still in Jerusalem and mourning for the One who was pierced.

So who are the elect who are gathered to Jesus at the trumpet call (the last trump?), while He is still in the clouds of the air? 'I tell you a mystery, we will not all sleep, but we will be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet....'1 Cor 15, 'According to the Lord's own word..we who are still alive , who are left till the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the air..'1 Thess 4.

[1whowaits]

Mr b, i am not saying God has a different plan of salvation for Israel as apposed to all others who accept Christ, He just has a different timing for Israel to accept Christ. Paul states in Romans 11 that this is God's timing- 'Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved..'

It would appear that because Israel rejected Christ and His New Covenant, God has hardened their hearts until a certain number has passed regarding the gentiles. In Luke 21 Jesus does speak of a time of the Gentiles-' Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled'. The full number of the Gentiles could refer to the number of gentiles that will be saved, or the time when the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles ends, which would be when Jesus returns in the clouds and Israel accepts Him and the gentile nations armies that surround Jerusalem are destroyed.

The end of the times of the Gentiles occurring when Jesus returns would be consistent with Israel's acceptance of Christ in Zech 12, the hardening of Israel's heart ends, Israel accepts Christ and His New Covenant, and the gentiles never again trample Jerusalem as Jesus resides there- 'Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles.' Zech 14

[Sonbeam]

I see it differently than you do. I do not believe that "to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place" were fulfilled by the Cross. I understand you believe the whole passage was fulfilled by the Cross right?

1. Everlasting righteousness will be ushered in when Lord returns for His Bride and pours out His wrath on the world.
2. Vision and prophecy will cease when the two witnesses are killed just prior to the Lord's appearance.
3. And the anointing of the most holy place refers to the anointing (consecration) of the New Jerusalem.

Yes - we see it differently. The 3 decrees you mentioned were accomplished - and completed when He said: "It is Finished" prior to giving up His Sprit on the Cross. I think what we disagree on here is you think that these are things yet future - when Scripture clearly identifies the Kingdom of God is within us. Everything pointed to Christ.

Not really sure why you mention the two witnesses and how this relates to vision & prophecy ceasing.
Please elaborate

Been busy this past weekend Mr. B, but here is my response in next post.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Mr B,

I agree that everything in Daniel 9:24 pointed to Christ. He’s the only one who could accomplish the actions listed.

That the first three were accomplished by Christ on the Cross is obvious, but it is also obvious that the last three have not, especially “everlasting righteousness.”

Likewise “vision and prophecy” did not cease. They continued after the Cross and will continue until the end times.

ABOUT PROPHECY:

Acts 11-27-28

27 At that time prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.
28 One of them named Agabus stood up and predicted by the Spirit that there would be a severe famine over all the world; and this took place during the reign of Claudius.

Acts 21:7-11

7 When we had finished the voyage from Tyre, we arrived at Ptolemais; and we greeted the believers and stayed with them for one day. 8 The next day we left and came to Caesarea; and we went into the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who had the gift of prophecy. 10 While we were staying there for several days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 He came to us and took Paul’s belt, bound his own feet and hands with it, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘This is the way the Jews in Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.”[/b]

Rev 11:6 says this about the 2 witnesses:

16. They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

Continued on next post.

[Sonbeam]

Mr B

VISIONS also continued after the Cross.

Here are two well known accounts, though there are many more recorded (Luke 24:23, Acts 2:17, Acts 9:10, 12, Acts 16:9, Acts 18: 9):

Acts 10:3

3. One afternoon at about three o’clock he had a vision in which he clearly saw an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.”

Acts 10:17

17. Now while Peter was greatly puzzled about what to make of the vision that he had seen, suddenly the men sent by Cornelius appeared.

sonbeam

[Mr Baldy]

God's part is Finished.

Thanks Keith -

I wholeheartedly agree. If it wasn't Finished - then Jesus would not have said so on the Cross. I'll elaborate more on this statement in response to some of the other comments I've seen.

[Mr Baldy]

I agree that everything in Daniel 9:24 pointed to Christ. He’s the only one who could accomplish the actions listed.

Thanks

That the first three were accomplished by Christ on the Cross is obvious, but it is also obvious that the last three have not, especially “everlasting righteousness.” Likewise “vision and prophecy” did not cease. They continued after the Cross and will continue until the end times.

VISIONS also continued after the Cross.

Hi Sonbeam -

I think you may be missing the point I've been trying to make regarding the Subject of this Thread: "It Is Finished!"

Of course visions continued, and so did animal sacrifices after the Cross. But the necessity of these things in order to point to Christ has been FINISHED. It all pointed to HIM.

Let's be clear about what Scripture says in Daniel 9:24-27:

Daniel 9:24-27 - NASB

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24) “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25) So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26) Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27) And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

In order to be clear about Daniel 9:24-27 we can see that Seventy Weeks have been decreed for "your people and your holy city." The language here is clear and mentions the entire 70 weeks - so how can this be future past any point where Christ was revealed?

We see in verse 25 from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah there are "seven and sixty-two weeks. That's 7 + 62 for a total of 69 Weeks.

In verse 26 we see AFTER the 62 and the previous 7 for (again a total of 69 weeks) have been completed, it clearly places us into the 70th Week - and Christ is Crucified or "cut off."

Those are the 70 weeks that were determined - as it ALL pointed to Christ. I think Scripture is quite clear about this.

The only End Time eschatological view I believe one can deduce from the information set forth in Daniel 9:24-27 is to look at what Jesus said regarding the AOD in Matthew 24:15. He said:

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

The AOD mentioned by Daniel had occurred - (Antiochus Epiphanes IV). Jesus mentions this and it requires that the "reader understand" because this event will happen again - not that it is the same AOD. The AOD prophesied by Daniel foreshadows the Final AOD that will occur 3.5 years prior to the Return of Christ.

So in other words - Jesus said when you see this event as was mentioned by Daniel (happen again - and this is where the understanding comes in) know that Great Tribulation will occur. Scripture identifies the duration of this time period being 3.5 years or 1,260 days. Antichrist is allowed to persecute the Body of Christ - had those days been any longer then no flesh would be saved; they are subsequently 'cut short' - not extending past 1,260 days.
After these days - Jesus Returns; gathers us unto Himself; and Eternity Begins.

[WOODHENOT3]

I agree with you in some ways Mr. Baldy, 70 weeks has been determined and finished, but Jesus was cutoff at the midst of the 70th week. why else would the Great Tribulations be 3.5 years? Jesus ministry was 3.5 years which was the first half of the 70th week, would it make sense the last half of the 70th week was to complete the confirmation of the everlasting covenant?

Just wondering...I need some clarity....thanks!

[Mr Baldy]

I agree with you in some ways Mr. Baldy, 70 weeks has been determined and finished, but Jesus was cutoff at the midst of the 70th week. why else would the Great Tribulations be 3.5 years? Jesus ministry was 3.5 years which was the first half of the 70th week, would it make sense the last half of the 70th week was to complete the confirmation of the everlasting covenant?

Just wondering...I need some clarity....thanks!

Hi Woody -

Always good to see you post. I love the way you make practical sense out of the things you write or inquire about.

This is perhaps one of the best questions I've seen as far as it relates to the 70 weeks.

Shorty has a very interesting theory regarding the 70 weeks. I agree with a lot of the things he says, and we've had very good discussions regarding this matter. I believe if he fine tunes some of the points he makes, his theory would be perhaps the best one I've seen yet.

I cannot be dogmatic about my views - and I'm certainly not ruling Shorty's theory out we just have a few disagreements.

Admittedly, the 3.5 years that are remaining very well could be the completion of the 70 weeks. It makes sense. Where I have different view of the way Shorty has put things together is:

1) I don't believe Daniel 12:11-12 has anything to do with the remaining 3.5 years. It cannot be logically explained, as it goes past 1,260 as mentioned over, and over, and over again in Scripture. The days mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12 were completed in the first "Jewish-Roman War" (66-70 AD) as recorded by Josephus. This is my opinion. The explanation Shorty gives for the extra 75 days; meaning the 1,290 days and then 1,335 respectively - just doesn't add up in comparison to the rest of Scripture which clearly identifies 1,260 days ONLY.


2) I don't believe the Tribulation period lasts 30 days - as Shorty has documented. Scripture clearly indicates the Saint's are persecuted 1,260 days or 3.5 years. I believe there is a "remnant" saved during this time period - and by the way...this has nothing to do with some believers "Being Left Behind" from a so-called "pre-tribulation rapture." If we are alive during that time period - we ALL will be persecuted in some way shape form or fashion. The Wheat is allowed to grow among the Tares until the time of the harvest (rapture). Then we will be raised up on the LAST DAY.

3) I don't believe we are in the "midst" of the 70 weeks, or there is this so-called 2,000+ year gap that is active and time just stopped. This has never made any sense to me. "IF" Shorty's theory is correct - and it very well may be, as he makes a lot of very good valid points, that can be supported with Scripture. However, he has a few holes....

"IF" his theory is correct, then my theory to add to what he mentions - would be when Jesus was "cut off" or Crucified - then the remaining 3.5 years is yet future and will fulfill the entire 70 weeks. However, that doesn't mean we are in the "midst" of anything - it just means the future 3.5 years will be fulfilled in God's timing. My theory would be that when Jesus mentioned the AOD and He referred to what was mentioned by the Prophet Daniel - He was referring to the an AOD previously committed; in that it foreshadowed what will happen prior to His Return.

In closing - I have an issue with the whole the way the whole "Confirmation" process has been explained. The 70 weeks determined pointed to Christ. His Birth, Ministry, Death and ultimate Resurrection has been fulfilled. The shedding of His Blood was confirmation enough. It was a "One Time Deal" Once something has been confirmed - it's Confirmed. There is no longer any requirements for animal sacrifices; or any other atonement or sacred sacrifices needed. His is the "Propitiation" and met the requirement God the Father established. So to say the final 3.5 years completes the Confirmation of the "Everlasting Covenant" I believe is the wrong way to view what the confirmation actually is.

When Jesus died on the Cross - He said: "IT IS FINISHED." His Death & shedding of his Blood completed the requirements set forth in the 70 weeks; or the confirmation. "If " the final 3.5 years are linked to the completion of the total 70 weeks that have been determined - then it is for the Body of Christ; a time of "testing" and not the "Confirmation" process itself. And let's not get this confused with the Wrath of God being poured out during this time (another time for that).

God Bless!

[WOODHENOT3]

Hello Mr. Baldy,
Hey Bro, I understand what you're saying... but what is the 75 days after the Great Tribulations? You have 30 days of what? and then you have 45 days left...

Shorty's View is convincing, but I keep asking myself, the Days of Noah, he was here on earth during the wrath and so was Lot, the main point I see is trust God, he's the protector....

You've got me thinking about, "IT IS FINISHED".... Jesus is the atonement, it is a done deal.Sacrificing by the Jews is pointless, it has ceased 2000 years ago....

Now, after 69 weeks in verse 9:26, it becomes the 70th week in verse 27, "HE" I believe is referred to Jesus also, but when he was cutoff(His death), he was reserructed after His death makes me wonder about the 70th week being fulfilled because his death was the midpoint, then the resurrection which is part of the second half of the 70th week?? What about the 40 days he walked the earth? I am just thinking...all prophecies of Jesus First Coming is fulfilled, It is finished.

Now prophecies of the second Coming... is not finished... come to think, Jesus said, IT IS FINISHED, before His resurrection...


Hey Mr. Baldy, we both know we will be here to the Last Day...

Many blessings!!

[shorttribber]

I don't believe the Tribulation period lasts 30 days - as Shorty has documented.

In what place have I Ever said that the tribulation period lasts 30 days?
First....I never use the term "tribulation period" to describe the 1,290 day "Great Tribulation".

You heard that right, I said, 1,290 day "Great Trib".
Where do you have the idea that the Great Trib lasts Only 1,260 days Mr. B?
Are you "reading in to scripture" to have that Understanding?

I know what your objection will be to what I just said.
It will go something like this...Seriously Shorty? 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days is mentioned over and over as pertaining to the "tribulation period", so what gives ST? Have you lost your escatological mind?

And my answer would be, no I haven't Mr. B

You see Mr. B, if you read only what the text actually says, without reading into it a preconceived idea, you will discover that I am correct.

Jesus called the Great Trib..." Those Days" when referring to that Whole Period Of Time.
You can disagree that Jesus was referring to Daniel 12, but imo he Clearly was.

Now, scripture never mentions in any place whatsoever that the Total Time of Great Trib is exactly 1,260 days. Not once Mr. B.
What the scriptures DO SAY is, in various kinds of ways, that the elect will be Given into the hands of the enemies of God to be destroyed, killed, physically overcome, etc.

That's what the texts All agree on.....I'm on my phone now, will those texts another time.

What Jesus PLAINLY SAID WAS, except "Those Days" be shortened, no flesh should be save, but for the elects sake, they Shall. BE Shorttened.

Shorttened from What Mr. B.?
Shorttened from 1,290 days to 1,260, that's what.

Then, after the days are "Shorttened" for us/the elect, after We Have been Given Into The Hands of antichrist to destroy us for 3.5 years, The Rapture occurs!!!!and immediately there follows the WRATH OF GOD, Poured Out for 30 days!

And that Full Time of "Those Days", 1,290 of them, will be completed and fulfilled as spoken by Daniel the prophet and Christ Himself.

THAT is the time mentioned Without Reading Into the text.

And to repeat, where have I Ever mentioned the Great Trib lasts only 30 days?
Please don't forget to post a retraction of your error in that regard.i do not want Any Reader to be confused about What I Truly Teach and believe.

Blessings brother.

I also want to say thank you for the High Degree and respect you have shown for my teachings. You're actually showing a great deal of flexibility and openmindedness.

[Mr Baldy]

HI Woody -

I understand what you're saying... but what is the 75 days after the Great Tribulations? You have 30 days of what? and then you have 45 days left...

Who says there is 75 days AFTER the Great Tribulation - I've never read this in Scripture.

Now, after 69 weeks in verse 9:26, it becomes the 70th week in verse 27, "HE" I believe is referred to Jesus also, but when he was cutoff(His death), he was reserructed after His death makes me wonder about the 70th week being fulfilled because his death was the midpoint, then the resurrection which is part of the second half of the 70th week?? What about the 40 days he walked the earth? I am just thinking...all prophecies of Jesus First Coming is fulfilled, It is finished.

Great Point!

I want to add some clarification to what you have mentioned. Please consider when Jesus said: "IT IS FINISHED." It was His Death, the shedding of His Blood. That was the atonement - the sacrifice which was the Propitiation that settled everything and pleased God the Father. I mentioned His Resurrection because without His Resurrection - none of us have any Hope. In His humanity - He died. In His Deity He is Everlasting. Always Was, Is, and Will Be Eternal God. So please focus on what Scripture says about His Death being the Propitiation as it relates to the 70 weeks that have been determined - this is why He said "IT IS FINISHED."

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Shorty -

First....I never use the term "tribulation period" to describe the 1,290 day "Great Tribulation".

You will find no where in Scripture where there is 1,290 day "Great Tribulation."

You heard that right, I said, 1,290 day "Great Trib".Where do you have the idea that the Great Trib lasts Only 1,260 days Mr. B?Are you "reading in to scripture" to have that Understanding?

Again - you will find No Where in Scripture where the Great Tribulation lasts 1,290 days - just ain't there. Now as far as the Tribulation lasting 1,260 days - here is what Scripture says:

Daniel 7:25 - NASB

He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

Here we have the Antichrist given to power to "wear down" the saints for a "time, times, and half a time" - which is 3.5 years. Not 1,290 days as you mention.

Daniel 12:7 - NASB

I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

I know you will comment on the term "and" - however, again, we consistently see 3.5 years, or 1,260 days mentioned.

Revelation 11:2-3 - NASB

2) Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3) And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Revelation 12:12-17 - NASB


12) For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”


13) And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14) But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15) And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16) But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17) So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The aforementioned verses are extremely important to understanding. Here yet again we see 1,260 days mentioned. We further see the Devil (SATAN) attacks those saints who are not in what I believe is the "remnant." The remnant are nourished in the wilderness for 1,260 days.

Revelation 12:6 - NASB

Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Revelation 13:5 - NASB

There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

Again - over, and over, and over again we consistently see the time given is 3.5 years. NOT 1,290 days or even 1,335 days. Daniel 12:11-12 which mentions 1,290 and 1,335 days respectively has been fulfilled. We have to be very careful not to get the prophecies already fulfilled confused with those that are yet to come.

Jesus called the Great Trib..." Those Days" when referring to that Whole Period Of Time.

Here is what Jesus said Shorty -

Matthew 24:21 - NASB

For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Jesus never identifies the amount of time the Great Tribulation lasts - so lets be clear about that. He simply says "there will be a great tribulation" - and He mentions this after He mentions the AOD in Matthew 24:15.

You can disagree that Jesus was referring to Daniel 12, but imo he Clearly was.

Very interesting - then "IF" Jesus was referring to Daniel 12 - then this time has already been fulfilled. This was fulfilled in the first Jewish-Roman War which identifies the 1,290 days, and the 1,335 days. Please do your historical research on this. This is a historical fact - as documented by Josephus.

I would add - if that be the case, it would also be the "Great Tribulation" for that particular time period. Additionally, it's no wonder He said His Coming will be as the Days of Noah. No one will have a clue what's going on, because the time of persecution we expect in the future has actually already happened. This is something more to ponder about.

What Jesus PLAINLY SAID WAS, except "Those Days" be shortened, no flesh should be save, but for the elects sake, they Shall. BE Shorttened. Shorttened from What Mr. B.? Shorttened from 1,290 days to 1,260, that's what.

I whole heartedly disagree -

Respectfully we have a completely different interpretation on how the term "shortened" is applied here. You mysteriously apply this to 1,290 days - where are you getting that philosophy

It says unless those days are shortened could mean "if those days were to continue" past 1,260 days no flesh would be saved. You should consider this as well Shorty. As 1,290 days are only identified ONCE in Scripture - whereas we have a plethora of times 1,260 days; 3.5 years; or 42 months are consistently identified.

Then, after the days are "Shorttened" for us/the elect, after We Have been Given Into The Hands of antichrist to destroy us for 3.5 years, The Rapture occurs!!!!and immediately there follows the WRATH OF GOD, Poured Out for 30 days!

Pure conjecture. There is no where in Scripture you will see we are given to the Antichrist AFTER the days are shorten. Seems you are guilty of "reading into" Scripture here Shorty. And where are you getting this 30 DAYS?????

I would really like you to prove - (no conjecture) with Scripture that God's Wrath last 30 days. Truth of the matter is you WON'T find it anywhere.

And that Full Time of "Those Days", 1,290 of them, will be completed and fulfilled as spoken by Daniel the prophet and Christ Himself.

- how does the 1,335 days factor into this Shorty? You have seemed to left this out for some reason

Again - please look at the Historical Facts surrounding the 1,290 days - and the 1,335 days. Look at what Titus and his Army done at the AOD he committed and compare this to what Daniel documents in chapter 12.

In closing -

You have identified the time of Gods Wrath lasting 30 days - however, no where in Scripture will you find how many days His Wrath lasts. You have identified the "full time of those days lasting 1,290 days" but you leave out the 1,335 days also mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12 - these things are pure conjecture, and your on interpretation. You have also identified that the Great Tribulation last 1,290 days:

You heard that right, I said, 1,290 day "Great Trib".

This absolutely cannot be supported with Scripture.

We see Scripture continuously identifying this Final time period as 3.5 years.

[WOODHENOT3]

This is an interesting discussion!

Mr. Baldy, can you prove the "1260 days" is the Great Tribulation?
I would think the bowl judgments to be the Great Tribulation because it's the wrath, the most horrific....I don't see where God's wrath intervening in the 1260 persecution days... I keep thinking.... God's wrath on earth during Noah's days was not 1260 days or God's wrath on Sodom was not 1260 days.... it makes more sense to me that God's wrath is short... 30 days sounds right... but this is interesting... scripture does not say the wrath lasts 1260 days.... umm....I honestly thing the wrath is short....and the last of the judgments....

go on guys.... :)

[WOODHENOT3]

Mr. Baldy,

This is how I see the 70 weeks, I was using my tape measurement today.... I was thinking 490 inches...all 490 inches to measured, but the cutoff was in the midst of the last seven inches, so I cut the tape at 46 and a half inches as instructed, what do I have left, 3 and 1/2 inches on the side... I can't help it Mr. Baldy, I still see three and half years...I don't think it's a gap but what is leftover... God bless bro!

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. Baldy, can you prove the "1260 days" is the Great Tribulation?

Hi Woody -

The short answer to your question is "NO." I cannot prove the 1,260 days is the "Great Tribulation." But What I can prove, and have already provided is Scripture which indicates the Body of Christ is persecuted by the Antichrist for 1,260 days - specifically Daniel 7:25. Some may suggest that this is the Great Tribulation - however, Scripture never gives the duration of exactly how long it lasts.

it makes more sense to me that God's wrath is short... 30 days sounds right... but this is interesting... scripture does not say the wrath lasts 1260 days.... umm....I honestly thing the wrath is short....and the last of the judgments....

Woody - respectfully, I think it would be a mistake to get caught up in Daniel 12:11-13 which identifies time periods of 1,290 and 1,335 days respectfully and link this specifically to the final 3.5 years. First of all the time doesn't add up, in that it goes 75 days beyond the very specific time of 1,260 days provided consistently in Scripture. This prophecy has already been fulfilled - as documented in history being the First Jewish-Roman War. Additionally, Scripture never sets a time in which God's Wrath is poured out. Just please keep this in mind.

[shorttribber]

Got to keep this short due to time.

Mr. B, you spent one long post giving me scriptural evidence of the variant 3.5 year mentions of great trouble and persecution of the saints. But Mr. B, why do you do that when i already said the following...

I know what your objection will be to what I just said.
It will go something like this...
Seriously Shorty? 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days is mentioned over and over as pertaining to the "tribulation period", so what gives ST? Have you lost your escatological mind?

Now, to quote you, while answering woody...

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
Mr. Baldy, can you prove the "1260 days" is the Great Tribulation?


Hi Woody -

The short answer to your question is "NO." I cannot prove the 1,260 days is the "Great Tribulation."

It says unless those days are shortened could mean "if those days were to continue" past 1,260 days no flesh would be saved. You should consider this as well Shorty. As 1,290 days are only identified ONCE in Scripture - whereas we have a plethora of times 1,260 days; 3.5 years; or 42 months are consistently identified.

I think, if Jesus ment to say, "if those days were to continue", He WOULD HAVE said it quite exactly like that.
But instead, He makes a CLEAR Distinction between shorttening for the Elects Sake, thereby indicating that MORE TIME Would Certainly Follow After the Elect are Removed from the Earth via Rapture.

You should consider this as well Shorty. As 1,290 days are only identified ONCE in Scripture - whereas we have a plethora of times 1,260 days; 3.5 years; or 42 months are consistently identified.

I knew you would say just what you said...doesn't it sound much like...
Seriously Shorty? 3.5 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days is mentioned over and over as pertaining to the "tribulation period", so what gives ST? Have you lost your escatological mind?

But, i said the following Already Mr, B,.....please make note of it...

Now, scripture never mentions in any place whatsoever that the Total Time of Great Trib is exactly 1,260 days. Not once Mr. B.
What the scriptures DO SAY is, in various kinds of ways, that the elect will be Given into the hands of the enemies of God to be destroyed, killed, physically overcome, etc.

That Persecution of the Saints WILL LAST 3.5 Years! It WILL LAST 1,260 Days, Just as the scriptures PLAINLY say!

So, Why you said the following is beyond me.

Pure conjecture. There is no where in Scripture you will see we are given to the Antichrist AFTER the days are shorten(ed). Seems you are guilty of "reading into" Scripture here Shorty. And where are you getting this 30 DAYS?????

the highlighting is mine.....where on earth, or in what place did i Ever Mention that "we are given to the Antichrist AFTER the days are shortened.
Where did you get that from?

I really think you may need to slow down and really Closely Read what a person is actually writing Mr. B.

I will further explain the 1,260, 1,290, and 1,335 in another post ( it's Not a 75 day Period added to the 1,260) Like i sadi i will explain later.

But please Mr. B., Please write a retraction of your earlier error also regarding this quote below...

Mr Baldy wrote:
I don't believe the Tribulation period lasts 30 days - as Shorty has documented.

so ST wrote: In what place have I Ever said that the tribulation period lasts 30 days?

and

And to repeat, where have I Ever mentioned the Great Trib lasts only 30 days?
Please don't forget to post a retraction of your error in that regard.i do not want Any Reader to be confused about What I Truly Teach and believe.

Blessings as always

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. Baldy,

This is how I see the 70 weeks, I was using my tape measurement today.... I was thinking 490 inches...all 490 inches to measured, but the cutoff was in the midst of the last seven inches, so I cut the tape at 46 and a half inches as instructed, what do I have left, 3 and 1/2 inches on the side... I can't help it Mr. Baldy, I still see three and half years...I don't think it's a gap but what is leftover... God bless bro!

Agreed!

Great analogy by the way.

[WOODHENOT3]

Mr. Baldy,

This is how I see the 70 weeks, I was using my tape measurement today.... I was thinking 490 inches...all 490 inches to measured, but the cutoff was in the midst of the last seven inches, so I cut the tape at 46 and a half inches as instructed, what do I have left, 3 and 1/2 inches on the side... I can't help it Mr. Baldy, I still see three and half years...I don't think it's a gap but what is leftover... God bless bro!

Agreed!

Great analogy by the way.

Thanks, I made some typing errors... whoops....."I was cutting at 486 and 1/2 with 3 1/2 remaining...", but I guess you knew what I was talking about.... :).

Have a nice evening!!

[Mr Baldy]

HI Shorty -

Let's do address a few comments you have made:

I think, if Jesus ment to say, "if those days were to continue", He WOULD HAVE said it quite exactly like that.But instead, He makes a CLEAR Distinction between Sorttening for the Elects Sake, thereby indicating that MORE TIME Would Certainly Follow After the Elect are Removed from the Earth via Rapture.

Shorty, Shorty, Shorty - as a great student of Scripture you should well know that very often Jesus either spoke in parables to illustrate a true point; and/or He spoke in very figurative or symbolic language. That's Scripture 101.
Your aforementioned comments are pure conjecture - nothing more. Point of the matter is Scripture is very clear about the Body of Christ being persecuted for 1,260 days - which are NOT CUT SHORT. So, you will have to draw a different conclusion or a better interpretation of what the term "cut short" actually means.

where on earth, or in what place did i Ever Mention that "we are given to the Antichrist AFTER the days are shortened. Where did you get that from?

You have asked...……….so HERE IT IS:

Then, AFTER the days are "Shorttened" for us/the elect, after We Have been Given Into The Hands of antichrist to destroy us for 3.5 years, The Rapture occurs!!!!and immediately there follows the WRATH OF GOD, Poured Out for 30 days!

Unless I am reading what you wrote wrong - it certainly appears this is what you wrote. Perhaps you could have written this better, so that it isn't so confusing. It appears you're using the word "after; after" and that made no sense to me. Perhaps you could have used the conjunction "AND" after to better illustrate your point.

Nevertheless, you are still incorporating a 30 Day Wrath period which has no Scriptural Foundation.

But please Mr. B., Please write a retraction of your earlier error also regarding this quote below...shorttribber wrote:

Mr Baldy wrote:I don't believe the Tribulation period lasts 30 days - as Shorty has documented. so ST wrote: In what place have I Ever said that the tribulation period lasts 30 days?

My apologies Shorty - I stand corrected. You did not mention the Tribulation period last 30 days - my error. What you did say is that God's Wrath lasts 30 days. I knew your theory had a 30 day time frame in one aspect of it. With that being said, the only time we are given as it relates to the time before the Return of Christ is 3.5 years. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less. You continuously incorporate the 1,290 days and for some reason have said the Tribulation period last that long - not adding up Shorty. Too many days bro.


Keep Christ on the Throne - God Bless

[shorttribber]

shorttribber wrote:
I think, if Jesus ment to say, "if those days were to continue", He WOULD HAVE said it quite exactly like that.But instead, He makes a CLEAR Distinction between Sorttening for the Elects Sake, thereby indicating that MORE TIME Would Certainly Follow After the Elect are Removed from the Earth via Rapture.

Mr B said...
Shorty, Shorty, Shorty - as a great student of Scripture you should well know that very often Jesus either spoke in parables to illustrate a true point; and/or He spoke in very figurative or symbolic language. That's Scripture 101.
Your aforementioned comments are pure conjecture - nothing more. Point of the matter is Scripture is very clear about the Body of Christ being persecuted for 1,260 days - which are NOT CUT SHORT. So, you will have to draw a different conclusion or a better interpretation of what the term "cut short" actually means.

Parable, Figurative or Symbolic language? Then you need to move on to scripture 102 Mr. B.
There is Not the Slightest indication that he was speaking in Any Abstract Form! He simply spoke it Plain and Clear, with no underlying symbolism.

You can beleive as you do, you're entitled to do that, but please don't strecth very plain words into some symbolic meaning to fit your ideas.


shorttribber wrote:
where on earth, or in what place did i Ever Mention that "we are given to the Antichrist AFTER the days are shortened. Where did you get that from?

Mr B. Wrote:
You have asked...……….so HERE IT IS:

shorttribber wrote:
Then, AFTER the days are "Shorttened" for us/the elect, after We Have been Given Into The Hands of antichrist to destroy us for 3.5 years, The Rapture occurs!!!!and immediately there follows the WRATH OF GOD, Poured Out for 30 days!

Unless I am reading what you wrote wrong -

.....and you are

it certainly appears this is what you wrote. Perhaps you could have written this better, so that it isn't so confusing

Not sure other readers are confused in the same manner by my wording, but I will try to simplify the structure of the statment.

basicly it says....
AFTER yadayadayada Comma AFTER yadayadayada for 3.5 years Comma The Rapture occurs!!!!and immediately there follows the WRATH OF GOD, Poured Out for 30 days!

During all that yadayadayada, the saints are in great tribulation and being destroyed by the antichrist for 3.5 years (1260 days), THEN the Rapture occurs!
And immediately after the Rapture, the Wrath of God is Poured Out for 30 days.


I hope this helps to clear things up.

Nevertheless, you are still incorporating a 30 Day Wrath period which has no Scriptural Foundation.

Yes it does have foundation, from the end of Daniel 12. Your idea as to how the time mentioned there is fulfilled or WAS fulfilled, is just different than mine.

That's where the scriptural foundation does or doesn't exist, it exists in HOW the 1,290 mentioned is Ultimately Fulfilled.

With that being said, the only time we are given as it relates to the time before the Return of Christ is 3.5 years. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

You are incorrect dear brother

You continuously incorporate the 1,290 days and for some reason have said the Tribulation period last that long - not adding up Shorty. Too many days bro.

You are incorrect dear brother

When i explain "THOSE DAYS" (1,290 of them) on another post, it may just be a new revelation to you.

[WOODHENOT3]

Hi Mr. Baldy!

Have you noticed Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED" at MIDPOINT of the 70th week? Why Midpoint?

Also, I have trouble with this, when the saints are persecuted for 1260 days, if God's wrath were to be during the 126o days, where would the Saints be if not appointed to wrath? Just wondering...

Many blessings!!

[mrgravyard49]

something for ST and Mr Baldy...
https://sites.google.com/site/thefinish ... -fulfilled

[shorttribber]

I've already studied the preterist view very carefully Mr Gravy.
I 'm glad you brought this up though, and I will soon be addressing exactly these things in my Tabernacles thread.

Thank you

Just wanted to add this in from another thread when I wrote......
" Shorttrib is Historicist and Futurist both.......with Correct Ideas Retained and Errant Ideas Removed from each of those two basic opinions"

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Mr. Baldy!

Have you noticed Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED" at MIDPOINT of the 70th week? Why Midpoint?

Also, I have trouble with this, when the saints are persecuted for 1260 days, if God's wrath were to be during the 126o days, where would the Saints be if not appointed to wrath? Just wondering...

Many blessings!!

HI Woody -

Yes - I mentioned exactly what you said about Jesus saying IT IS FINISHED - in the midpoint of the 70th week. It has a lot of prophetic significance - and it points to exactly what we have been discussing in this thread. When Jesus Died... in the middle of the 70 weeks given - He Finished the Work necessary for us to inherit Eternal Life. Everything pointed to Him and His accomplishment on the Cross.

Question is... does the last 3.5 years that remain conclude the 70 weeks?

This is why I continue to have problems with Shorty identifying Daniel 12:11-12 with the time of the End. The 1,290 days and 1,335 days just don't add up, and actually go past the 1,260 days that have been consistently provided to us in Scripture.

As far as the 1,260 - that's all we are given prophetically as it pertains to the Time of the End:

1) Antichrist is given power to persecute the Body of Christ for 1,260 Days
2) The Woman (Church - 'remnant') is protected and nourished for 1,260 days
3) The Two Witnesses prophesize 1,260 Days

As far as "God's Wrath" - well I'm still confused how people want to dissect it; cut it up; add their own private interpretation and somehow identify that it is some sort of time outside of the 1,260 days given.

It is true that the "Body of Christ" is not appointed to His Wrath - SO the question is.... "What does it mean?"

As I stated ….many want to take this to mean things like:

1) The Rapture occurs
2) We are hidden in some "safe place" not experiencing God's Wrath
3) We are in the time as it is poured on the Earth - but somehow not affected by it

I have seen nothing in Scripture that would indicate God's Wrath is a separate and/or independent time from the 1,260 days given. I wholeheartedly believe it is inclusive. Scripture is clear about the saints being persecuted for 1,260 days; however, we are also given Scripture that stated there are those who will be "nourished" in the wilderness at that time - I feel this is the remnant. To add some sort of "time period" by placing a number of days to it - that occurs "AFTER" the Great Tribulation cannot be supported by Scripture.

[Mr Baldy]

something for ST and Mr Baldy...
https://sites.google.com/site/thefinish ... -fulfilled

Hi Gravy!

Looks like you're doing some research!

This is Great. I have looked at the link you provided and A LOT of what is mentioned I agree with.

Admittedly, I have heard of "preterist" But I have never actually studied it and delved deeply into it to get a true understanding. But the link you provided seems to support a lot of the things I have mentioned in most of my comments in various Threads.

Thanks for the info Bro!

[mrgravyard49]

Mr. B. Somehow it just popped up and I looked at it for a second Then posted it here for You and ST.
Not doing any research as I give up. I no Longer care about endtimes nor do I believe in any so called rapture.
Just focusing on taking care of my wife and dealing with our druggie son. I except death. Figure I got 20 more years ..sadly.

[Loop]

it just popped up

If it just popped up, maybe you should go and look at it some more, maybe God is trying to show you something... anyway its something to think about, and remember Luke 19:13
King James Version
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

[Jay Ross]

it just popped up

If it just popped up, maybe you should go and look at it some more, maybe God is trying to show you something... anyway its something to think about, and remember Luke 19:13
King James Version
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Hi Loop, the Parable of the Minas as translated in Luke 19:11-27 gives the wrong impression of who the characters are in this parable. The Parable of the Talents as it has been translated also gives the wrong impression of what Jesus was actually saying. Below is my paraphrase of the source Greek Text for this passage.

Luke 19:11-27

11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: "A certain nobleman went into a far country/entity of high ranking went into the abyss for a long time, to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, 'Do business till I come.' 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us.' {Jesus in this parable is indicating that Israel will repent at this time of their sins against God.}

15 "And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned ten minas.' 17 And he said to him,'Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.' 18 And the second came, saying, 'Master, your mina has earned five minas.' 19 Likewise he said to him, 'You also be over five cities.'

20 "Then another came, saying, 'Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. 21 For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.' 22 And he said to him, 'Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?' {Jesus is indicating that this servant kept the mina/pound safe and returned it to his master in the condition that he had received it, because his master had no right to the increase. The so called "wicked servant" did not want to rob and oppress his fellow countrymen and called out his master for wanting him to do that, to which the master agreed with. The Wicked servant acted in accordance with the "Law."}

24 "And he said to those who stood by, 'Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.' 25 (But they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas.') 26 'For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.'" {Jesus in the last verse is telling us, like we are also told in the Book of Revelation that when Satan returns from the abyss/the Bottomless Pit that he will initially go after the Israelites to kill them.}

When we understand the Parables of the Mina and the Talents within the context in which Jesus told them, our understanding is that he is describing the context of what it will be like during the initial 1,000 years of the establishment of the Everlasting Kingdom of God. Both of these parable are about the circumstances on the earth during the first 1,000 years after the establishment of the physical Everlasting Kingdom of God on the earth, which we are told in Daniel 2, occurs during the time of the kings of the earth of the fifth and final segment of the feet of the statue.

Christ in saying that it is finished before He died on the cross, was making reference to what was prophesied in Daniel 9:24b after the 490 year period of grace offered to the nation of Israel to repent of their iniquities of idolatrous behaviour during the first two ages of their existence from the time of the birth of Isaac.

We need the Holy Spirit to guide us in our understanding, but that does not always mean that we arrive at the right understanding of what we read in the Scriptures. We do need to be careful in the conclusion that we drawn from what we read in the Bible as well as being prepared to go back and re-evaluate them and accept that sometimes we need to adjust our previous conclusions to be more in line with what God has had recorded in the original texts recording his deeds and words.

Shalom

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. B. Somehow it just popped up and I looked at it for a second Then posted it here for You and ST.
Not doing any research as I give up. I no Longer care about endtimes nor do I believe in any so called rapture.
Just focusing on taking care of my wife and dealing with our druggie son. I except death. Figure I got 20 more years ..sadly.

HI Gravy -

I personally don't believe in coincidences - especially when you belong to Christ. Things just don't "pop up." Regardless of anyone's view on the Rapture - there will be one. It's the timing that most cannot come to an agreement on. Scripture is absolutely clear that we will be raised on the LAST DAY.

I'm not trying to convince you - or anyone else for that matter. I guess we all are intelligent enough to study Scripture for ourselves. I just wanted to thank you for that fascinating website. It explains a lot. I'm not sure I agree with everything he mentions, but the things he mentions seem to be supported both Scripturally, and Historically.

Thanks again.

[Mr Baldy]

it just popped up

If it just popped up, maybe you should go and look at it some more, maybe God is trying to show you something... anyway its something to think about, and remember Luke 19:13
King James Version
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Yes indeed - EXCELLETN Points Loop!

We are to Occupy until He Comes!

[mrgravyard49]

Oh I occupy alright.. Anyone care to trade. Since I brought my wife home from the nursing home in 2016 I take care of her and deal with our son and never a day off .. Any of you with those easy lives care to trade?

[Mr Baldy]

Christ in saying that it is finished before He died on the cross, was making reference to what was prophesied in Daniel 9:24b after the 490 year period of grace offered to the nation of Israel to repent of their iniquities of idolatrous behaviour during the first two ages of their existence from the time of the birth of Isaac.

Hi Jay -

I actually agree with you here.

We need the Holy Spirit to guide us in our understanding, but that does not always mean that we arrive at the right understanding of what we read in the Scriptures. We do need to be careful in the conclusion that we drawn from what we read in the Bible as well as being prepared to go back and re-evaluate them and accept that sometimes we need to adjust our previous conclusions to be more in line with what God has had recorded in the original texts recording his deeds and words.

I wholeheartedly agree - this is why I have never been dogmatic about my Scriptural End Time views.

[Loop]

Oh I occupy alright.. Anyone care to trade. Since I brought my wife home from the nursing home in 2016 I take care of her and deal with our son and never a day off .. Any of you with those easy lives care to trade?

Easy? I look around and there are very few who are living "easy" lives at this time... My mom passed in 2012 of cancer, I pretty much lived in every hospital around WV up until that time with her, and at her home when not in hospital all while having severe pain with my hip, My oldest brother passed away less then a year later of cancer, My dad was in and out of the hospital up until he passed away in 2017 and in those in between years I was in a wheelchair most of the time after breaking my hip and thigh "my dr's told me I needed a hip replacement but said I was too young" yea, a wheelchair/severe pain... then fell and broke my wrist again when finally was approved to get my total hip replacement.. which was a blessing... then 2019 my baby brother passed away, devastation doesn't even touch it... If not for my husband... I'm not sure I would have survived, my last older brother has had a double brain bleed and a heart attack, we have been helping my husbands niece move and she just found out she has terminal cancer, she's only 51 her dad has demensia and her mother is very sickly, at the same time my cousin who my family practically raised as my sister is now addicted to meth after loosing many family members and I could tell you she has had it a lot rougher then me, living is not easy... I am keeping you in my prayers... hang in there ... Some day we are going to have more blessings then you or I can ever imagine...

[Mr Baldy]

Oh I occupy alright.. Anyone care to trade. Since I brought my wife home from the nursing home in 2016 I take care of her and deal with our son and never a day off .. Any of you with those easy lives care to trade?

Easy? I look around and there are very few who are living "easy" lives at this time... My mom passed in 2012 of cancer, I pretty much lived in every hospital around WV up until that time with her, and at her home when not in hospital all while having severe pain with my hip, My oldest brother passed away less then a year later of cancer, My dad was in and out of the hospital up until he passed away in 2017 and in those in between years I was in a wheelchair most of the time after breaking my hip and thigh "my dr's told me I needed a hip replacement but said I was too young" yea, a wheelchair/severe pain... then fell and broke my wrist again when finally was approved to get my total hip replacement.. which was a blessing... then 2019 my baby brother passed away, devastation doesn't even touch it... If not for my husband... I'm not sure I would have survived, my last older brother has had a double brain bleed and a heart attack, we have been helping my husbands niece move and she just found out she has terminal cancer, she's only 51 her dad has demensia and her mother is very sickly, at the same time my cousin who my family practically raised as my sister is now addicted to meth after loosing many family members and I could tell you she has had it a lot rougher then me, living is not easy... I am keeping you in my prayers... hang in there ... Some day we are going to have more blessings then you or I can ever imagine...

You're absolutely right Loop -

My prayers go out to you and your family. Hang in there, and please continue to keep Christ First in your life.

[GodsStudent]

Loop, to read that and see how you ended, naming more blessings than we can imagine....how blessed am I to have witnessed the words you shared? Thank you for that! I believe our Father and Savior and the Holy Spirit are all I think of sometimes when I want to feel overwhelmed or give up. Your story reads a lot like mine with changes in the specific circumstances of those we love, but stepping in and doing when we can barely do for ourselves is happening here, too. I get a day off every once in a while and on those days I realize how horrendously high my pain levels are as I have moments to sit still and feel them. I ask myself why I keep going like this, and the answer is simple, it's right, and it's clear this is what the Lord would have me do right now. I am called to take care of my 5mos. old grandbaby while her parents flounder (until they will get it together, which I believe they will as they are striving for that, just having a bit of trouble). I was here and if God sees me as able, then that is how I must see myself....I try not to allow myself to look at it any other way, as that always brings heartache to me....unnecessarily.