Have We Entered the Tribulation?

[shorttribber]

Hi Sonbeam again,

Ok, i'm going to try to show the differences in the Mr B opinion, and my correct opinion.

Where he has said this....

Now - to my knowledge Shorty believes that the 70th week has yet to be fulfilled.

He's Half correct there, since i actually believe that HALF of the 70th week HAS been fulfilled, and only Half of it remains FUTURE.

To my knowledge, Scripture has been consistent in ONLY a 3.5 year period of time remaining. The saints will go through this time period known as the Great Tribulation - and these days will not be "shortened" for them. I think this can be proven by Scripture - and where Shorty and I disagree. The term used "If those days were not shortened no flesh would be saved" in my opinion means: "If that period of Time was longer than 3.5 years, no flesh would be saved."

Now here is where Mr. B. Thinks i disagree apparently, but i don't actually BECAUSE i TOO believe we will go through the Entire 3.5 years.

Where we disagree and let me say, it really doesn't matter a great deal, is the idea that Daniel 12 has been fulfilled...i do not even come close to beleiving that.

I believe Daniel 12 in it's entirety is yet future.

And, i believe that for many, Many reasons.

I will save any more writing on this specific subject for a different thread (the 3.5 year thread).

Luv ya Mr B.

[Mark F]

As mentioned, I believe that the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the Ministry; Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus. We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

I have seen this statement multiple times, in fact over and over in one form or another; but I would like for someone to share what they mean by this statement on a point-by-point basis. (i.e. There are six or seven things (depending on how you divide them) which will be completed by the ending of the 70 weeks.) If this statement is indeed true, and I am not questioning whether you believe it to be true, each point ought to be supportable by other scriptures which point back to this passage. They ought to be contextually accurate and be able to advance the argument that "the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the ministry: Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus."

Any takers?

Jesus statement on the cross has been bandied around multiple times as well, with the claim that it is supportive of this notion. The following is a common example of this type of statement. And while I believe that i understand well what Jesus was saying on the cross, I have no way to tie it to Dan 9:24. So I am curious how someone else can do so. While it sounds good, even impressive, at this point I have not seen any scriptural support for this claim. Please give the logic and reasoning behind your claim.

We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

I think I'm with you on this.

As for me I have been pre-trib always, I believe the 70th week is entirely future. Daniel 9:24 is not fulfilled until Jesus returns in Glory, parts of it sure, not all of it. My reason for staying pre-trib is I believe the 70th week will be accomplished for the Jews and Israel, the purposes given in Scripture for the reason for the GT cannot be applied to the Bride of Christ. There is no refining and purifying to be had as the we are now in Christ. Chafer listed 33 Divine accomplishments that occur immediately upon being saved (The Riches of Grace in Christ) that go counter to any reason for the Church to go through the GT IMO.

So I do not intend this to persuade anyone, just clarification had anyone wondered. That's how I stand. If I see the AOD I'll reconsider then

[Mr Baldy]

As mentioned, I believe that the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the Ministry; Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus. We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

I have seen this statement multiple times, in fact over and over in one form or another; but I would like for someone to share what they mean by this statement on a point-by-point basis. (i.e. There are six or seven things (depending on how you divide them) which will be completed by the ending of the 70 weeks.) If this statement is indeed true, and I am not questioning whether you believe it to be true, each point ought to be supportable by other scriptures which point back to this passage. They ought to be contextually accurate and be able to advance the argument that "the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the ministry: Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus."

Any takers?

Jesus statement on the cross has been bandied around multiple times as well, with the claim that it is supportive of this notion. The following is a common example of this type of statement. And while I believe that i understand well what Jesus was saying on the cross, I have no way to tie it to Dan 9:24. So I am curious how someone else can do so. While it sounds good, even impressive, at this point I have not seen any scriptural support for this claim. Please give the logic and reasoning behind your claim.

We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

Hi Ready1 -

Actually I've answered your question in my comments. Now I want to ask you a question....

The entirety of Scripture points to Jesus Christ - from the Very Beginning to the End. The Book of Daniel is no exception.
So what do you think Jesus was referring to when He said: "It is FINISHED" (John 19:30) as He gave up His Spirit and died on the Cross?

[shorttribber]

If I see the AOD I'll reconsider then

interesting that you should phrase your sentence that way...... considering the thread i just started

[Ready1]

Hi Ready1 -

Actually I've answered your question in my comments. Now I want to ask you a question....

No, Mr Baldy, while you have made that statement countless times, you have never even once come remotely close to answering my question. Not once, not ever, that I have seen. Should I take it to mean that you cannot? Or possibly you have answered it in an unknown forum that I missed. If you cannot answer my question, then your words are just words and you have no argument. Here is what I asked for.

I have seen this statement multiple times, in fact over and over in one form or another; but I would like for someone to share what they mean by this statement on a point-by-point basis. (i.e. There are six or seven things (depending on how you divide them) which will be completed by the ending of the 70 weeks.). Each point ought to be supportable by other scriptures which point back to this passage. They ought to be contextually accurate and be able to advance the argument that "the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the ministry: Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus."

[Ready1]

I think I'm with you on this.

As for me I have been pre-trib always, I believe the 70th week is entirely future. Daniel 9:24 is not fulfilled until Jesus returns in Glory, parts of it sure, not all of it. My reason for staying pre-trib is I believe the 70th week will be accomplished for the Jews and Israel, the purposes given in Scripture for the reason for the GT cannot be applied to the Bride of Christ. There is no refining and purifying to be had as the we are now in Christ. Chafer listed 33 Divine accomplishments that occur immediately upon being saved (The Riches of Grace in Christ) that go counter to any reason for the Church to go through the GT IMO.

So I do not intend this to persuade anyone, just clarification had anyone wondered. That's how I stand. If I see the AOD I'll reconsider then

That pretty much puts it in a nutshell. As a walnut grower, I like that!

[Mr Baldy]

Where we disagree and let me say, it really doesn't matter a great deal, is the idea that Daniel 12 has been fulfilled...i do not even come close to beleiving that.

Very interesting Shorty - as I believe our past discussions actually led me to delve into Daniel 12 - and learn that verse 11 specifically referred to the AOD mentioned earlier in the Book of Daniel as it had to have a foundation.
Ironically, you were the one who brought this to my attention.

I want provide two (2) different times in which the AOD was mentioned prior to Danie 12:11 - to illustrate my point:

Daniel 9:27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of Abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

AND:

Daniel 11:31- New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the Abomination Of Desolation.

Now here is Daniel 12 - which you differ from me - in that you believe it is yet Future:

Daniel 12:11 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the [bAbomination Of Desolation[/b] is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

If you'll notice in Daniel 12:11 - the AOD is mentioned; however, it had to be mentioned earlier in Daniel as it has to have foundation. So, the question becomes is the foundation established in Daniel 9:27 or Daniel 11:31?

As we know prophecies can have dual or multiple manifestations. If you say that Daniel 12:11 cannot be referring to Daniel 9:27 then you have to say it's referring to Daniel 11:31 - as it cannot stand alone.

I believe that the prophecies mentioned in Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 9:27 have already been fulfilled.

The Historian Josephus documents the events of the "First Jewish-Roman War" which occurred 66-73 AD in which the Temple was destroyed by Titus - and "appears"' to be the AOD mentioned in Daniel 11:31. Furthermore the General and Senator Gaius Cestius Gallus; was literally responsible for the city of "Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies." (Luke 21:20) to restore order to the revolt by the Jews.

This is why I believe Jesus - when asked the Question by His disciples: "When will these things happen?" Jesus was referring to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. He answers the other questions as they pertain to His Coming and the End of the Age referring to the AOD of mentioned by Daniel as it has multiple fulfilments. In mentioning that - it does not negate the fact that the 70th week has been completed.

I will save any more writing on this specific subject for a different thread (the 3.5 year thread).

See you there!

[shorttribber]

I think I'm with you on this.

As for me I have been pre-trib always, I believe the 70th week is entirely future. Daniel 9:24 is not fulfilled until Jesus returns in Glory, parts of it sure, not all of it. My reason for staying pre-trib is I believe the 70th week will be accomplished for the Jews and Israel, the purposes given in Scripture for the reason for the GT cannot be applied to the Bride of Christ. There is no refining and purifying to be had as the we are now in Christ. Chafer listed 33 Divine accomplishments that occur immediately upon being saved (The Riches of Grace in Christ) that go counter to any reason for the Church to go through the GT IMO.

So I do not intend this to persuade anyone, just clarification had anyone wondered. That's how I stand. If I see the AOD I'll reconsider then

That pretty much puts it in a nutshell. As a walnut grower, I like that!

I love walnuts! The folks in the town i'm in grew them like Nuts in 1906 when the town was settled by Quakers....i live in a house built by Quakers in 1911! We have a big old walnut tree in the front yard!

My son found a three-sided Walnut here at the Christian school in town! I guess it's a trinity walnut

[Mr Baldy]

No, Mr Baldy, while you have made that statement countless times, you have never even once come remotely close to answering my question. Not once, not ever, that I have seen. Should I take it to mean that you cannot? Or possibly you have answered it in an unknown forum that I missed. If you cannot answer my question, then your words are just words and you have no argument. Here is what I asked for.

Well - again, your questions concerning Daniel 9:24 were answered. I find it most unfortunate that you didn't receive an answer you agree with.

So because you did not understand what I wrote - I will provide it to you again:

The entirety of Scripture points to Jesus Christ - from the Very Beginning to the End. The Book of Daniel is no exception.

As mentioned, I believe that the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the Ministry; Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus. We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

[shorttribber]

If you'll notice in Daniel 12:11 - the AOD is mentioned; however, it had to be mentioned earlier in Daniel as it has to have foundation. So, the question becomes is the foundation established in Daniel 9:27 or Daniel 11:31?

Neither 11:31 or 9:27

First, the AOD is not at all once mentioned in 9:27.
Second, the Sacrifice of 9:27 was the Bloody Atonement Sacrifice.
Third, the Daily is what is mentioned in 11:31 AND 12:11. (the word Sacrifice was added into the Modern Translations)
Fourth, the version you have posted of 9:27 is utterly pitiful! Christ NEVER Made a FIRM Covenant with anybody for Seven Years! He Confirmed FOR 0ne 7 (seven years) THE EVERLASTING COVENANT (The Abrahamic Covenant)

As we know prophecies can have dual or multiple manifestations.

Absolutely

If you say that Daniel 12:11 cannot be referring to Daniel 9:27 then you have to say it's referring to Daniel 11:31 - as it cannot stand alone.

It doesn't stand alone.....but it does not have it's Foundation as you say to 9:27, UNLESS you can see it from a different perspective so to speak. I will discuss that part further here and in my new thread also, because both places are good for that discussion.

I believe that the prophecies mentioned in Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 9:27 have already been fulfilled.

9:27 yes, not 12:11, remember, 12:11 is only speaking of the "Daily" or grain offering, Not the Atonement Sacrifice of 9:27.

The Historian Josephus documents the events of the "First Jewish-Roman War" which occurred 66-73 AD in which the Temple was destroyed by Titus - and "appears"' to be the AOD mentioned in Daniel 11:31. Furthermore the General and Senator Gaius Cestius Gallus; was literally responsible for the city of "Jerusalem being surrounded by Armies." (Luke 21:20) to restore order to the revolt by the Jews.

Absolutely Correct

[Ready1]

No, Mr Baldy, while you have made that statement countless times, you have never even once come remotely close to answering my question. Not once, not ever, that I have seen. Should I take it to mean that you cannot? Or possibly you have answered it in an unknown forum that I missed. If you cannot answer my question, then your words are just words and you have no argument. Here is what I asked for.

Well - again, your questions concerning Daniel 9:24 were answered. I find it most unfortunate that you didn't receive an answer you agree with.

So because you did not understand what I wrote - I will provide it to you again:

The entirety of Scripture points to Jesus Christ - from the Very Beginning to the End. The Book of Daniel is no exception.

As mentioned, I believe that the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the Ministry; Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus. We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

That's it? That's disappointing, did you even read the question? I'll just assume that you are unable to provide anything other than you own speculations. No evidence, no scripture, no proof, no point-by-point, only opinion, only conjecture, only supposition, only assumption. But it is what you believe.

If there's anyone else on the board that believes this way, would you like to take a stab at it?

[Mr Baldy]

That's it? That's disappointing, did you even read the question? I'll just assume that you are unable to provide anything other than you own speculations. No evidence, no scripture, no proof, no point-by-point, only opinion, only conjecture, only supposition, only assumption. But it is what you believe.

What I wrote in response to your question is written in Scripture: John 19:30.

I find it most unfortunate for you, that you cannot grasp the concept. May God open up your understanding.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr Baldy wrote:
I believe that the prophecies mentioned in Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 9:27 have already been fulfilled.

9:27 yes, not 12:11, remember, 12:11 is only speaking of the "Daily" or grain offering, Not the Atonement Sacrifice of 9:27.

Hi Shorty -

As you know there is a "different school of thought" on the interpretation of Daniel 9:27 being an "Atonement Sacrifice."

For clarification I'm asking that you address this issue for those who may be reading this and not understanding. I know that you are referring to Christ. But the PreTrib believers may believe that this is an act in which the coming Antichrist will "break the covenant" with the many.

My belief is even if Christ is the Atonement Sacrifice mentioned in the first portion of Daniel 9:27 - the verse further describes one who "comes and makes desolate." This in none other than the coming Antichrist - and the reason why I believe this prophecy was fulfilled by Titus and is a "Type & Shadow" of what the coming Antichrist will do in the Final 3.5 years.

Historically - Daniel 12:11 has already been fulfilled as well - in the previous comments I've mentioned.

[WOODHENOT3]

Daniel 9:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I'm battling with this "One week" because when Jesus Trump Entry into Jerusalem, he died in the midst of that week, so why does it have to be 7 years? Does it matter? If the verse said, "In the LAST week", I would think that would be referring to the 70th week...I see it two ways, Jesus was cutoff in the midst of the week prior to the triumph entry and also I see in the midst of the 7 year was cutoff, Jesus ministry was 3.5 years and was cutoff....

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

so "WHO" shall make it desolate?


blessings,

[Exit40]

Daniel 9:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

so "WHO" shall make it desolate?


blessings,[/quote]

I have wrestled with this one too Woody. Took me a while to think the Lord might be this cruel to His own, but then I realize the conditions that brought this on. It is the Lord who makes it desolate, because of the corruption that was in His House, His House of Prayer, the one He directed to be made, the Temple where He would meet His people. Think back to the Abrahamic Covenant, and what the Lord said would happen if they did not follow His Law's. Per the Covenant, the Lord makes the Temple desolate precisely because of the violations of the Law, the corruption, the idol worship, the money and politics that were allowed to creep in there as time went on. These are the desolation's, not the AOD, that brought on the destruction of the Temple. That is the meaning of the first mention of desolate, the Lord allowing it as a result. But yes, it is Him who makes desolate, and it remains this way even today. The other mention of desolate comes as a judgement, at the consummation, or finish of the Prophecy found in that verse, at the end of the last half of the last week. This is when the Lord returns and sets up His Kingdom on earth, the beginning of the Last Day, of our space time continuum, which is the Millennial Kingdom of 1000 years.

This belief can only be true if the Lord is the 'He', the Prince that shall come, the Desolator, the one Who confirms the Covenant, and the One who causes the Sacrifice and Oblation to cease in the midst of the week at His Crucifixion and Resurrection. If this belief is true, essentially it is the short trib view, we are still in the midst of the week, waiting for the AOD to begin the last half of the 70th week, and all the Prophecy's relating to it, the end of which is the consummation, and that which is determined is poured out on the desolate. I hope this helps.

God Bless You

David

[Mr Baldy]

Daniel 9:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

so "WHO" shall make it desolate?


blessings,

I have wrestled with this one too Woody. Took me a while to think the Lord might be this cruel to His own, but then I realize the conditions that brought this on. It is the Lord who makes it desolate, because of the corruption that was in His House, His House of Prayer, the one He directed to be made, the Temple where He would meet His people. Think back to the Abrahamic Covenant, and what the Lord said would happen if they did not follow His Law's. Per the Covenant, the Lord makes the Temple desolate precisely because of the violations of the Law, the corruption, the idol worship, the money and politics that were allowed to creep in there as time went on. These are the desolation's, not the AOD, that brought on the destruction of the Temple. That is the meaning of the first mention of desolate, the Lord allowing it as a result. But yes, it is Him who makes desolate, and it remains this way even today. The other mention of desolate comes as a judgement, at the consummation, or finish of the Prophecy found in that verse, at the end of the last half of the last week. This is when the Lord returns and sets up His Kingdom on earth, the beginning of the Last Day, of our space time continuum, which is the Millennial Kingdom of 1000 years.

This belief can only be true if the Lord is the 'He', the Prince that shall come, the Desolator, the one Who confirms the Covenant, and the One who causes the Sacrifice and Oblation to cease in the midst of the week at His Crucifixion and Resurrection. If this belief is true, essentially it is the short trib view, we are still in the midst of the week, waiting for the AOD to begin the last half of the 70th week, and all the Prophecy's relating to it, the end of which is the consummation, and that which is determined is poured out on the desolate. I hope this helps.

God Bless You

David

You are correct David "IF" the "he" who makes desolate can be determined?

The King James Version gives a slightly different translation than the NASB.

From my understanding the NASB is a Word for Word translation verses a "thought for thought" translation - but perhaps someone can shed more light on this matter?

[WOODHENOT3]

Daniel 9:27 King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

so "WHO" shall make it desolate?


blessings,

I have wrestled with this one too Woody. Took me a while to think the Lord might be this cruel to His own, but then I realize the conditions that brought this on. It is the Lord who makes it desolate, because of the corruption that was in His House, His House of Prayer, the one He directed to be made, the Temple where He would meet His people. Think back to the Abrahamic Covenant, and what the Lord said would happen if they did not follow His Law's. Per the Covenant, the Lord makes the Temple desolate precisely because of the violations of the Law, the corruption, the idol worship, the money and politics that were allowed to creep in there as time went on. These are the desolation's, not the AOD, that brought on the destruction of the Temple. That is the meaning of the first mention of desolate, the Lord allowing it as a result. But yes, it is Him who makes desolate, and it remains this way even today. The other mention of desolate comes as a judgement, at the consummation, or finish of the Prophecy found in that verse, at the end of the last half of the last week. This is when the Lord returns and sets up His Kingdom on earth, the beginning of the Last Day, of our space time continuum, which is the Millennial Kingdom of 1000 years.

This belief can only be true if the Lord is the 'He', the Prince that shall come, the Desolator, the one Who confirms the Covenant, and the One who causes the Sacrifice and Oblation to cease in the midst of the week at His Crucifixion and Resurrection. If this belief is true, essentially it is the short trib view, we are still in the midst of the week, waiting for the AOD to begin the last half of the 70th week, and all the Prophecy's relating to it, the end of which is the consummation, and that which is determined is poured out on the desolate. I hope this helps.

God Bless You

David[/quote]

This does help and I do understand clearly about the Arabrahamic Covenant, it's making more sense. thanks and many blessings, I shall continue to study this more, it's amazing!

[shorttribber]

On my phone @ work. Thanx David, perfect explanation. Will post more tonight on computer

[shorttribber]

You are correct David "IF" the "he" who makes desolate can be determined?

The King James Version gives a slightly different translation than the NASB.

From my understanding the NASB is a Word for Word translation verses a "thought for thought" translation - but perhaps someone can shed more light on this matter?

Ok Mr. B,

Here comes that Light

here is the best word for word i could find from Hebrew directly into English of the section for discussion.

and upon as wings (3671)abominations(8251)desolation/astonishment (8074) even until (5704) end (3617) and that decreed (2782) shall outpour (5413) on the desolated/Desolate (8074)

It is quite well known that this is a very obscure portion of scripture and has been translated or rather I should say interpreted many different ways.

But why really in light of this passage?
.........................................................................................................................................
Mathew 23
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that .............killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee(abomination8251), how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her]................. wings.........(as wings3671)..............., and ye ........would not!......(abomination8251)

38 Behold(astonishment8074), your house is...... left unto you (and that decreed2782)........(even until5704)desolate.

39 For I say unto you,(decreed2782)......... Ye shall not see me henceforth, ...........till..........(even until5704) ye shall say, Blessed [is].......... he that cometh

in the name of the Lord.


(shall outpour[5413] on the [8074]desolated/desolate)

[shorttribber]

You are correct David "IF" the "he" who makes desolate can be determined?

The King James Version gives a slightly different translation than the NASB.

Not "slightly different" Mr B., a whole Mayflower Truckload of Difference really.

Here's the List of many of the Modern Translations that virtually Slaughter the REAL Meaning of Daniel 9:27

Really Pathetic!

Now just look at all of the variations and added words........to help us understand .....that really has helped to cause many to misunderstand IMO.



Revised Standard Version
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

New Revised Standard Version
He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator."


New King James Version
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

New International Version
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

New American Standard Bible – updated edition
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

New Living translation
The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

English Standard Version
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

The message: The Bible in Contemporary language
"'Then for one seven, he will forge many and strong alliances, but halfway through the seven he will banish worship and prayers. At the place of worship, a desecrating obscenity will be set up and remain until finally the desecrator himself is decisively destroyed.'"

Complete Jewish bible
He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

New Century Version
That leader will make firm an agreement with many people for seven years. He will stop the offerings and sacrifices after three and one-half years. A destroyer will do terrible things until the ordered end comes to the destroyed city."

New English Translation Bible
He will confirm a covenant with many for one week.
But in the middle of that week
he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt.
On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys,
until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys."

God’s word translation
He will confirm his promise with many for one set of seven time periods. In the middle of the seven time periods, he will stop the sacrifices and food offerings. This will happen along with disgusting things that cause destruction until those time periods come to an end. It has been determined that this will happen to those who destroy the city."

The Living Bible
This king will make a seven-year treaty with the people, but after half that time, he will break his pledge and stop the Jews from all their sacrifices and their offerings; then, as a climax to all his terrible deeds, the Enemy shall utterly defile the sanctuary of God. But in God's time and plan, his judgment will be poured out upon this Evil One."

New American Standard bible
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

American Standard Bible
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations (shall come) one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall (wrath) be poured out upon the desolate.

Young’s Literal Translation[/b]
And he hath strengthened a covenant with many — one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

Darby Bible
And he shall confirm a covenant with the many [for] one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations [there shall be] a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.

Bible in Basic English
And a strong order will be sent out against the great number for one week; and so for half of the week the offering and the meal offering will come to an end; and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste.




World English Bible
He shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate; and even to the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out on the desolate.

Amplified Bible
27 And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.

Good News Translation
27 That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator."

Today’s English Version.
That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."


................................................................................................................................................
I just wanted to highlight this last Version.....it Amplifies so well the 7 year trib, modern dispensationalists Idea of WHAT THEY THINK Daniel 9 :27 REALLY MEANS......
.....................................................................................
The Living Bible
This king will make a seven-year treaty with the people, but after half that time, he will break his pledge and stop the Jews from all their sacrifices and their offerings; then, as a climax to all his terrible deeds, the Enemy shall utterly defile the sanctuary of God. But in God's time and plan, his judgment will be poured out upon this Evil One."

[shorttribber]

And Mr. B. since we are considering types and shadows....and your Idea that we can't in Any Way BE in the MIDST of the 70th Week.......

Do you remember the following Post?

I have Never Received an answer from ANYBODY to the question at the End of this post!
Not even an attempt to answer! And why is that?......

here is that post....................

Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he.......... hath anointed......... me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the ...........acceptable.......... year of the Lord.
.........................................................................................................................
Watch for the matching colors now
.........................................................................................................................
Jeremiah 34
8 This is the word that came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, after that the king Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people which were at Jerusalem, to............... proclaim liberty................ unto them;
9 That every man should let his manservant, and every man his maidservant, being an Hebrew or an Hebrewess,....... go free;................. that none should serve himself of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother.
10 Now when all the princes, and ...........all the people, which had entered into the covenant, heard .............that every one should let his manservant, and every one his maidservant,............ go free,......... that none should serve themselves of them any more, then............................. they obeyed,......................... and let them go.
11.................... But afterward they turned,................... and .................CAUSED........ the servants and the handmaids, whom they had let go free,........... to return, and brought them into subjection ................for servants and for handmaids.
12 ...............................................Therefore ............................................the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
13 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; .................I made a covenant with your fathers.................... in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondmen, saying,
14 At the end of seven years let ye go every man his brother an Hebrew, which hath been sold unto thee; and when he hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee:................. but your fathers hearkened not................. unto me, neither inclined their ear.
15 And ye were now turned, and had done right in my sight, in .....................proclaiming liberty..................... every man to his neighbour;.................... and ye had made a covenant .......................before me in the house which is called by my name:
..........................................................................................................................
16 But ye turned and polluted my name, and caused every man his servant, and every man his handmaid, whom ye had set at liberty at their pleasure, to return, and brought them into subjection, to be unto you for servants and for handmaids.

............................................................................................................................
17 ...............................Therefore................................... thus saith the LORD; Ye have not hearkened unto me
, in.................... proclaiming liberty,..................... every one to his brother, and every man to his neighbour: ..................................behold, ...........................I proclaim a liberty for you,.............................. saith the LORD, to the sword, to the pestilence, and to the famine; and I will make you to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
18 And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me,...................................................................... when they cut the calf in twain,....................................................................... and passed between the parts thereof,
19 The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf;
20 ...........................I will even give them into the hand of their enemies,................................ and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth.
21............... And ...............Zedekiah king of Judah and his princes will I give into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life, and into the hand of the king of Babylon's army, which are gone up from you.
22 Behold, I will command, saith the LORD, and cause them to return to this city; and they shall fight against it, and take it, and burn it with fire:................... and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation............... without an inhabitant.
..........................................................................................................................................

Ok,
When did, The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, pass between the parts of the calf ????

I think they "Passed Between the Parts" After Chist CUT His Covenant (and the Cutting of the Red Heifer{three year old Heifer}) Was the Type we See in the Abrahmic Covenant.
They, "The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land,"Also were Passing "Between the Parts" during the Desolation of Jerusalem of 70 ad.

At What other Time in All of History could "The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and ALL the people of the land, pass between the parts of the calf ????

...................................................................................................................................................

I think it's a Very Good Question.
We Are Still "In the Midst" between the parts of the calf

....................................................................................................................................................

So many Desolations of Jerusalem! Only One time though, Could ALL the People of The Land "Pass Between The Parts"

[Ready1]

I just wanted to highlight this last Version.....it Amplifies so well the 7 year trib, modern dispensationalists Idea of WHAT THEY THINK Daniel 9 :27 REALLY MEANS......

What if they are right? Most of these versions say virtually the same thing

[shorttribber]

I just wanted to highlight this last Version.....it Amplifies so well the 7 year trib, modern dispensationalists Idea of WHAT THEY THINK Daniel 9 :27 REALLY MEANS......

What if they are right? Most of these versions say virtually the same thing

That's right, they do, and why is that? Based on what the original text in Hebrew says (at the very beginning i posted exactly that) , they should not even come close to such sloppy Interpretations as they have!

And i'll add one more thing, ALL the Modern Translations have been heavily and i mean HEAVILY slanted to support the Dispensationalists 7 year trib View throughout prophetic Texts. They have been heavily Bias in THEIR Choice of words to Support those opinions.....PERIOD.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

That's right, they do, and why is that? Based on what the original text in Hebrew says (at the very beginning i posted exactly that) , they should not even come close to such sloppy Interpretations as they have!

And i'll add one more thing, ALL the Modern Translations have been heavily and i mean HEAVILY slanted to support the Dispensationalists 7 year trib View throughout prophetic Texts. They have been heavily Bias in THEIR Choice of words to Support those opinions.....PERIOD.

Previously when I have pointed out that the translator have been biased and that the translations need be re-paraphrased to reflect the context of the source text that have being translated by our "biased scholars" I have been shouted at and accused of modifying the "scared" translation bibles. I was coming out of left field for many of the people reading my posts and their reactions to my posts is understandable. One of the reasons why the changes in the Translations is very slow is because people have difficulty with "radical" change to their understanding of the scriptures. The hardest thing for people to accept is change as they want things to remain the same and therefor "safe."

Just as the Passion Translation has been published to support a particular SAR's understanding, so too have the Pre-trib protagonists caused some translations to favour the Pre-trib position while the same is true for the "New Covenant" understanding/persuasion.

Careful study of the source texts for our scriptural translations is needed to be able to come to a contextual understanding that is in sink with the source texts used.

ST when we begin to look at a word for word translation, we must be careful not simply insert the root meaning of the respective Hebrew or Greek words, but we must also consider the impact of the modifiers included within the respective words under consideration.

When we being to carefully attempt to understand the original message content, our conclusions may be very different from the herd mentality of understanding the source translation language scriptures that people use to form their belief systems.

What I have found to be hardest stumbling block for any modified paraphrasing is the inbuilt bias that I might have in arriving at the reworked translation that I might be suggesting.

St, keep going down this track in developing your word for word translations. Remember that it may require a number of iteration before the truth may become crystal clear for you before you can publish your findings from this study/research.

Good luck in your endeavours.

Shalom

[shorttribber]

Just before bed, i thought of one question i should ask of you Mr B.

I will answer more of your questions tomorrow, especially i look forward to commenting on the 1,335 days.

before that though answer this please.

Since you believe that the whole of Daniel 12 is completely fulfilled, historic, and past, please note the following.....

Daniel 12
1 And at that time ......................yadayadayada.....................
...................How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?......................
..................it shall be for a time, times, and an half;......................
.
The question is, IF all this (All of Daniel 12) has been fulfilled as you say when did the following happen at 66 AD?

and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Ready1]

And i'll add one more thing, ALL the Modern Translations have been heavily and i mean HEAVILY slanted to support the Dispensationalists 7 year trib View throughout prophetic Texts. They have been heavily Bias in THEIR Choice of words to Support those opinions.....PERIOD.

Would you say that about the next version? Is it different from the rest?

Dan 9:27 But he will confirm a covenant with many for one week of years; and for half of the week of years, victim and sacrifice will nearly cease; but there will be in the temple the abomination of desolation. And the desolation will continue even to the consumption and the end.

[Ready1]

And i'll add one more thing, ALL the Modern Translations have been heavily and i mean HEAVILY slanted to support the Dispensationalists 7 year trib View throughout prophetic Texts. They have been heavily Bias in THEIR Choice of words to Support those opinions.....PERIOD.

I think you would have a tough time backing that statement up. There are not very many "dish-pan-stationalists" in our world today; and to claim that they have that kind of influence over most of the translators is a big stretch.

These texts are all are pretty close, not exact but pretty close. A translator does his best to put words in place which will convey the meaning of the text as he or his team understand it. (But if you are looking for something to back up your thinking and are having a hard time finding it, you might say something like that.)

I know that this is too long but it does tell a story. 11 out of 26 of these bibles were translated prior to 1900. Can you tell which ones they are by reading them???

ASV Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

BBE Daniel 9:27 And a strong order will be sent out against the great number for one week; and so for half of the week the offering and the meal offering will come to an end; and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste.

CJB Daniel 9:27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

CSB Daniel 9:27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

DBY Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week; and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the protection of abominations there shall be a desolator, even until that the consumption and what is determined shall be poured out upon the desolate.

DRA Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

ERV Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and for the half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the consummation, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolator.

ESV Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

GNV Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shal be powred vpon the desolate.

GWN Daniel 9:27 He will confirm his promise with many for one set of seven time periods. In the middle of the seven time periods, he will stop the sacrifices and food offerings. This will happen along with disgusting things that cause destruction until those time periods come to an end. It has been determined that this will happen to those who destroy the city.

JPS Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'

KJV Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

LXE Daniel 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

NAB Daniel 9:27 For one week he shall make a firm compact with the many; Half the week he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation; On the temple wing shall be the horrible abomination until the ruin that is decreed is poured out upon the horror."

NAS Daniel 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

NET Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. But in the middle of that week he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt. On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys, until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys."

NIV Daniel 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

NJB Daniel 9:27 He will strike a firm alliance with many people for the space of a week; and for the space of one half-week he will put a stop to sacrifice and oblation, and on the wing of the Temple will be the appalling abomination until the end, until the doom assigned to the devastator.'

NKJ Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

NLT Daniel 9:27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

NRS Daniel 9:27 He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator."

RSV Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

RWB Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

TNK Daniel 9:27 During one week he will make a firm covenant with many. For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the meal offering. At the corner of the altar will be an appalling abomination until the decreed destruction will be poured down upon the appalling thing."

WEB Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations, he shall make {it} desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

YLT Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

[shorttribber]

I think you would have a tough time backing that statement up. There are not very many "dish-pan-stationalists" in our world today; and to claim that they have that kind of influence over most of the translators is a big stretch.

Ecumenicals or Dispensationalists, it doesn't matter...same thing when it comes to Modern bible errors.

These texts are all are pretty close, not exact but pretty close. A translator does his best to put words in place which will convey the meaning of the text as he or his team understand it. (But if you are looking for something to back up your thinking and are having a hard time finding it, you might say something like that.)

Pretty Close? Give me some space, please.
I'm not having a hard time backing my thinking, i know what i'm talking about.

I know that this is too long but it does tell a story. 11 out of 26 of these bibles were translated prior to 1900. Can you tell which ones they are by reading them???

Yes, i'm familiar with most of them. (Wish i had one of the Webster Bibles) worth quite a lot of money

The Fly in the Ointment was Westcott and Hort....Google them will you please.

Then, You may Learn too.

[Mr Baldy]

The question is, IF all this (All of Daniel 12) has been fulfilled as you say when did the following happen at 66 AD?

and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Hi Shorty -

Glad you asked that question...…

I noticed that you mentioned "ALL of Daniel 12" - but as you know, ALL of Daniel 12 does not reference the End Times. Nor did I say or mention ALL of Daniel 12. You have posted the first two verses of Daniel 12 (Daniel 12:1-2) - and yes this does reference the End Time; as a matter of fact it is specifically mentioning the Final 3.5 years. Then Daniel is told to "Seal the book" - and "go your way."

Fast forwarding to verses 5- 7:

Daniel 12:5-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5) Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6) And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” 7) I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, ALL these events will be completed.

You see Shorty - Scripture is consistent and it must work in harmony with other passages of Scripture. We continuously see a 3.5 year period of time; 42 months; 1,260 days - and time, times and half of time documented as far as the End Time is concerned. In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we further see "ALL these events will be completed" and within the 3.5 year time frame. Not 1,290 days or 1,335 days for that matter.

I'll close with saying once again - that the 1,290 days - and 1,335 days were referring to Daniel 11:31:

Daniel 11:31 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

We have to be careful not to confuse the prophecies fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV and Titus. The prophecy set forth in Daniel 9:27 - which I believe Jesus was referring to was completed by Titus - and is a "type & shadow" of what the coming Antichrist will do in the Final 3.5 years.

To include Daniel 12:11-13 into any End Time paradigm just doesn't add up.

[shorttribber]

Including 12: 11-13 Does add up more than you have thus far Understood. More tonight

[Ready1]

Pretty Close? Give me some space, please.
I'm not having a hard time backing my thinking, i know what i'm talking about.

I know what you think, shorttribber, but what does everyone else think? It seems kind of arbitrary to me to accuse the dispensationalists of having undue influence over the translators and then say

Ecumenicals or Dispensationalists, it doesn't matter...same thing when it comes to Modern bible errors.

That says that they are all making the same errors concerning this chapter and these verses. To my understanding a major portion of ecumenicals are either amillennials or replacement theology. I'm sorry but that doesn't stack up with the accusation you are making.

On another note, what did you think of the single passage I put up.

Would you say that about the next version? Is it different from the rest?

Dan 9:27 But he will confirm a covenant with many for one week of years; and for half of the week of years, victim and sacrifice will nearly cease; but there will be in the temple the abomination of desolation. And the desolation will continue even to the consumption and the end

.

[Sonbeam]

On Daniel Chap 12:

12:1-3 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

The above will be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

Daniel 12:7
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

The above will happen about 3 1/2 days before the Second Coming.

Daniel 12:11-12
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

I believe the above number of days are not concurrent. Their sum totals slightly over 7 years which is the length of
the last week yet to be fulfilled. Our Lord said those days will be shortened though.


sonbeam

[Exit40]

St, keep going down this track in developing your word for word translations. Remember that it may require a number of iteration before the truth may become crystal clear for you before you can publish your findings from this study/research.

Good luck in your endeavours.

Shalom

Jay, if my memory serves me, your position regarding Daniel 9:27, without regard to the Rapture, is that the 'He' in that verse is the antichrist who makes a covenant with the Hebrew peoples for the entirety of the last week, the 70th week, and breaks the covenant in the middle bringing on the Great Tribulation ... ... Is that correct ?

Or have you now seen the 'He' in that verse to be Christ ?

God Bless You

David

[shorttribber]

Dan 9:27 But he will confirm a covenant with many for one week of years; and for half of the week of years, victim and sacrifice will nearly cease; but there will be in the temple the abomination of desolation. And the desolation will continue even to the consumption and the end.



Not sure of this version Ready, but it is very poor.....so please tell me what version, and why do you ask?


And, Ecumenicals honestly don't have a clue what they are in prophetic picture. They just swallow the Wescott and Hort school of thought the same as dispensationalists.

Just the way it is, and BIAS DOES interfere with their work

[Ready1]

Dan 9:27 But he will confirm a covenant with many for one week of years; and for half of the week of years, victim and sacrifice will nearly cease; but there will be in the temple the abomination of desolation. And the desolation will continue even to the consumption and the end.



Not sure of this version Ready, but it is very poor.....so please tell me what version, and why do you ask?

Before I tell you, shorttribber, which version/versions do you see as "correct"? Surely there must be one on that list that you could agree with.

[WOODHENOT3]

Our Lord said those days will be shortened though.

How so?

[Ready1]

Mat 24:20 But pray that your flight is not in the winter, nor on the sabbath day;
Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.

[Mr Baldy]

We have to be careful not to confuse the prophecies fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV and Titus. The prophecy set forth in Daniel 9:27 - which I believe Jesus was referring to was completed by Titus - and is a "type & shadow" of what the coming Antichrist will do in the Final 3.5 years.

To include Daniel 12:11-13 into any End Time paradigm just doesn't add up.

Including 12: 11-13 Does add up more than you have thus far Understood. More tonight

Respectfully Shorty - Short of some sort of miracle - I don't foresee this happening. I believe we have to stop trying to do all sorts of contorting, spiritualizing - and dare I say performing "Acts of Scripture Torture" to make any given End Time paradigm work. I'm certainly not suggesting you or anyone else is doing that - but we have to allow Scripture to speak for Scripture.

[Mr Baldy]

Daniel 12:7
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

The above will happen about 3 1/2 days before the Second Coming.

Hi Sonbeam - I don't think you will be able to find anywhere in Scripture that identifies a "3.5 day period" that anything happens before the Second Coming - perhaps this is a typo?

If you meant to say 3.5 years - I certainly agree!

Daniel 12:11-12
11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

I believe the above number of days are not concurrent. Their sum totals slightly over 7 years which is the length of the last week yet to be fulfilled. Our Lord said those days will be shortened though.

I don't think these days run concurrent either - as a matter of fact, historical evidence proves that this time period and prophecy has already been fulfilled.

If you don't believe that it's been fulfilled - and its yet future, then you have another problem, in that a specific time has been given - and saying that "those days will be shortened" doesn't jive up either. Scripture must work in harmony with other passages of Scripture. The Body of Christ will be persecuted by the coming Antichrist for 3.5 years - there are no "if's" "ands" or "buts" about it.

Additionally, - there is another way to interpret: Matthew 24:22 -

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short

The aforementioned passage of Scripture; in which you are referencing could also mean:

"If this period of time had extended beyond 3.5 years - no life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

[shorttribber]

Dan 9:27 But he will confirm a covenant with many for one week of years; and for half of the week of years, victim and sacrifice will nearly cease; but there will be in the temple the abomination of desolation. And the desolation will continue even to the consumption and the end.



Not sure of this version Ready, but it is very poor.....so please tell me what version, and why do you ask?

Before I tell you, shorttribber, which version/versions do you see as "correct"? Surely there must be one on that list that you could agree with.

KJV

[Sonbeam]

Our Lord said those days will be shortened though.

How so?

Hi WOODHENOT3,

We have to look at OT prophesies in light of what Christ, the Word of God in the flesh, said when He was on this
earth.

He alone is the infallible interpreter of the OT writings. We make a big mistake when we interpret the OT as though it were a closed cannon and Christ hadn't come.

This is what Judaism does.

Matt 24
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

At the transfiguration, the Father told us to listen to His Son. Therefore, our Lord has the last Word. If He said those end time days are going to be shortened, we can trust that He is going to do it.

By how many days? He is the only one Who knows right now.


sonbeam

[WOODHENOT3]

Our Lord said those days will be shortened though.

How so?

Hi WOODHENOT3,

We have to look at OT prophesies in light of what Christ, the Word of God in the flesh, said when He was on this
earth.

He alone is the infallible interpreter of the OT writings. We make a big mistake when we interpret the OT as though it were a closed cannon and Christ hadn't come.

This is what Judaism does.

Matt 24
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

At the transfiguration, the Father told us to listen to His Son. Therefore, our Lord has the last Word. If He said those end time days are going to be shortened, we can trust that He is going to do it.

By how many days? He is the only one Who knows right now.


sonbeam

I think "those days" Jesus was referring to is after the Great Tribulation, the days would be shortened because of His coming wrath...you think?

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Jay, if my memory serves me, your position regarding Daniel 9:27, without regard to the Rapture, is that the 'He' in that verse is the antichrist who makes a covenant with the Hebrew peoples for the entirety of the last week, the 70th week, and breaks the covenant in the middle bringing on the Great Tribulation ... ... Is that correct ?

Or have you now seen the 'He' in that verse to be Christ ?

God Bless You

David

David, you are limiting what the first part of the verse states,

Daniel 9:27: - 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

This covenant is made with all the people of the earth and it is made by the beast that rises up out of the earth, in the second half of Revelation 13, and the "little horn" of Daniel 7 and 8 is referred to as the "False Prophet" in the book of Revelation.

The other difference between what I postulate is that the beasts are wicked fallen heavenly hosts and we are told that in Daniel 7:2: -

Daniel 7:2: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea.

The question is: - "Why are the four winds of heaven not seen as wicked heavenly hosts that stir up the surface of the sea?" Because people have great difficulty explaining how "wind," H:7308, can be referring to a spirit/angel, as they cannot see how there can be evil in heaven where God resides, but they forget that Satan and a third of the angels rebelled against God and that is why in Revelations 12:7-9 we are told the following: -

Revelation 12:7-9: - 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

where God first cleaned out His household, in Heaven, first by removing all wickedness from heaven.

We are also told this in Isaiah 24:21-22 were we read: -

Isaiah 24:21-22: -

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

Which poses the question of: - "Who are the hosts of exalted ones?" They are the Angels who have rebelled against God and exalted themselves as if the are equal to God. The lead fallen angels are Satan, the four winds of heaven, who are also called/described as, beasts, and the false prophet who is also called/described as the Little Horn {beast}.

Then in Daniel 7:3 we are told that the four beasts exercise influence and control over portions/parts of the sea of humanity and the respective dominate characteristic of each of the four beasts is manifested in the sea of humanity and the manifested "beast" in the sea of humanity, then do the bidding of the five beasts mentioned in Daniel 7.

Daniel 7:3: - 3 And four great beasts came up, {i.e. manifested themselves}, from the sea, each different from the other.

And we acknowledge that people groups/kingdoms/empires, as we can identify them as they chose to inhabit the respective domains of the five beasts. However, sadly, we tend to deny the influence of the "exalted heavenly hosts" over the manifested earthly beasts who are inhabiting the domains of the respective beasts.

In Daniel 8:8-12 what I have written above is also plainly in sight, but because we compartmentalise scripture into independent sections, we often do not see the connections between our compartmentalised passages and so are not able to develop a complete understanding of all the interconnected prophecies in the scriptures. In the quoted passage below, we see the Little horn exercising control over one of the four beasts, in this case the third beast, and using the characteristic of dominion of this beast takes control of one of the four heads of this beast and as we read we see the following unfolding in history: -

Daniel 8:8-12: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

So, under the influence of the Little Horn, we have seen his work in trampling the sanctuary of God and God's earthly hosts over time from around 250 BC right up to this present time using different people groups/nations/kingdoms and empires and it will continue for a little while longer until the full prophesied time period is completed in our near future at the end of this present age. Initially, the Little Horn began with one of the divisions of the Grecian Empires to start the trampling of God's sanctuary and his earthly hosts and as that empire waned the Little horn began to use a Roman Empire army lead by different "Generals/Emperors/Kings" and in our recent history, one might include the German people and today, we might consider that the Islamic influence is doing the Little Horns bidding in trampling Gods Temple and earthly Hosts.

Considering that the influence of the Little Horn is still very active today, because as can be seen in Daniel 7:7-12, he is causing great words to be spoken out against God through the Islamic fundamentalists wanting to force or entice their belief system on people around the earth.

Now let us consider two scriptural passages out of Daniel: -

Daniel 7:25: -

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

and

Daniel 12:4-7: - 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river,"How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

Now in Daniel 7:25 the word translated as "time" is from the Hebrew Root, where H5732 (Aramaic) corresponds to H:5708, but in Daniel 12:7 the Hebrew word translated as "Times" is associated with the Hebrew Root, H:4150 and as such we have two very different time periods.

In Daniel 7:25 we are being told that the Saints will be given into the Hands of the Little beast for a period where their blood will flow over three and a half "events" i.e. like the mensuration of a bride, and because of the time frames mentioned in the Book of Revelation we have adopted that the length of this period of time will be three and a half years.

However, in Daniel 12:7, the meaning of the Hebrew Root is associated more with a season/age/day of the Lord which has in my understanding a time period which will slightly be longer than 3,500 years from the time of Daniel receiving these prophetic insights.

For me to be able to see the Daniel prophecies differently, I have had to put aside what I had been taught from a young age over 50 years ago and begin to see what was recorded with fresh eyes.

Shalom

[shorttribber]

Daniel 12:7
Sonbeam wrote: 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.
and
Sonbeam wrote:
The above will happen about 3 1/2 days before the Second Coming.


Mr B. wrote: Hi Sonbeam - I don't think you will be able to find anywhere in Scripture that identifies a "3.5 day period" that anything happens before the Second Coming - perhaps this is a typo?

I'll save this for you Sonbeam, i know what you're referring to (and i think you're right too)...and it's not a typo

We have to be careful not to confuse the prophecies fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV and Titus. The prophecy set forth in Daniel 9:27 - which I believe Jesus was referring to was completed by Titus - and is a "type & shadow" of what the coming Antichrist will do in the Final 3.5 years.

To include Daniel 12:11-13 into any End Time paradigm just doesn't add up.

Including 12: 11-13 Does add up more than you have thus far Understood. More tonight

Respectfully Shorty - Short of some sort of miracle - I don't foresee this happening. I believe we have to stop trying to do all sorts of contorting, spiritualizing - and dare I say performing "Acts of Scripture Torture" to make any given End Time paradigm work. I'm certainly not suggesting you or anyone else is doing that - but we have to allow Scripture to speak for Scripture.

Oh come on Mr. B., don't you believe in miracles? I do
Without any contorting or Scripture Torture, that's a rough term, anyway, no, what i will show you fits Nice and Neatly in Place.
And the best part is, we will just let scriptures speak for scripture

You Ready for this?

[shorttribber]

Here we go Mr. B.,

First of all, let's look at the Big Picture, starting in Daniel 7.

To set the prophetic clock on this text, please note the next verses...
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This text speaking for itself gives a clear stamp that this vision and Times mentioned therein are for the Final End and Coming of Christ.....Right?

Moving on....

you said...

You see Shorty - Scripture is consistent and it must work in harmony with other passages of Scripture. We continuously see a 3.5 year period of time; 42 months; 1,260 days - and time, times and half of time documented as far as the End Time is concerned. In the aforementioned passage ( i'm inserting your quoted text, Dan. 12:5) of Scripture we further see "ALL these events will be completed" and within the 3.5 year time frame. Not 1,290 days

Now i realize that i'm in Daniel 7 here and you quoted 12:5...but that should be ok, since you have already acknowledged 12:5 specifically refers to the END. In this we agree
Now, to Let "Scripture Speak for Scripture" i propose Daniel 7 as a good comparison for The End Time, 3.5 years, 1260 days Great trib portion of time.
I know you must agree at this point.

Now then, let us look Real Close at the Incredibly Important Wording to see if an Understanding can grow from it ok?

Now...this text again..
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
AND...Very important here...Please read this next part carefully and slowly, let it sink in to Confirm what is being said in verse 22.
.......23, 24...............
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

What Part in Time, or What AMOUNT of TIME will this Taking Away of the Losers Dominion TAKE?.....What Time is Allotted For that to Take Place?
How Much TIME of God's Wrath being Poured Out on the Loser Will Transpire before his Dominion Utterly comes to His END?

I know, it Will Take About 30 DAYS!
Daniel is Plainly Told that AFTER the 1,260 Days There WILL BE 30 More Days....let me quote it...
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Now i now you believe this text to have already been fulfilled. I get that. BUT for the sake of JUST LETTING, One scripture Speak BY Comparison to Another.
Compare it with Daniel 7 above, where a REAL-TIME reference is Needed to Fulfill the Outpouring of God's Wrath and for THEM to TAKE AWAY the Dominion of the Loser AFTER the Wearing out of the saints? It's right there in Plain English in verse 26!

Now...back to Daniel 12...

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Is there any doubt that this is speaking of THE Resurrection of the Dead?
AT THAT TIME?

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

When i look at these few opening scriptures of Daniel 12, i think to myself as Daniel must have...WOW, now that will be quite a Wonder!!!

So Daniel asks, How Long will be till the END of [color=#0000FF]THESE WONDERS?

And the answer is......
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

All of What THINGS will be Finished Mr. B.?
The Things he was just Told About when the angel said At THAT TIMEAnd then proceeded Immediately to tell him the WONDERS that would Occur AT THAT TIME! From the Moment Micheal Stands Up!
The Wonders he is asked about DID Not take in ANYTHING At All to do with Antiochus At THAT TIME.

Where is the Wrath of God Poured Out and the Taking away of the Dominion of the Loser in Daniel 12 Mr. B.?

It's Not There is it?

UNLESS we compare what we have already Plainly Seen in Daniel 7! That there WILL BE TIME AFTER the Saints have been WORN OUT and POWER Scattered For THEM, the Saints AND GOD to TAKE AWAY the Losers Dominion Until the TIME of THE END!




10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


AND THOSE DAYS Shall be Shorttened For the Elects Sake, Just as Christ Said AND Just as is Plainly Written in Daniel 7

[Mr Baldy]

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, [color=#0000FF]and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

What Part in Time, or What AMOUNT of TIME will this Taking Away of the Losers Dominion TAKE?.....What Time is Allotted For that to Take Place?
How Much TIME of God's Wrath being Poured Out on the Loser Will Transpire before his Dominion Utterly comes to His END?

I know, it Will Take About 30 DAYS!
Daniel is Plainly Told that AFTER the 1,260 Days There WILL BE 30 More Days....let me quote it...
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Now i now you believe this text to have already been fulfilled. I get that. BUT for the sake of JUST LETTING, One scripture Speak BY Comparison to Another.

Houston we have a Problem!

Shorty - you have taken the prophecy in Daniel 12 - and applied it to Daniel 7; and I believe this is in error.

As I mentioned before - and I will mention it again for the sake of edification; historically, the prophecy of Daniel 12:11-13 has been fulfilled. You mentioned Daniel 7 but you did not mention Daniel 11:31 - where the historically prophecy of Daniel 12:11-13 was very clearly fulfilled.

Again - the Book of Daniel is LOADED with prophetical information - and we have to have "understanding" on which prophecy refers to which period of time. We also have to be very careful not to get the prophecies fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanies IV - and Titus confused with what Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:15. This is Key to understanding the mystery.

In closing - as I don't have much time (I'll respond after work with more)

You have mentioned Daniel 9:27 - refers to Christ.... and you may be right about that (at least the 1st half) But I contend that the very reading of Daniel 9:27 has two individuals mentioned. One being Christ and the other being the coming Antichrist. I believe that you prefer the King James Translation - which to my understanding is not a Word for Word Translation such as the NASB.

Lastly - in your theory you have a problem with the numbers. Scripture identifies 70 weeks have been determined. Not 70 weeks plus 30 days - then an additional 45 days as you are applying Daniel 12:11-13. Just doesn't add up.

Gotta -go! - We'll discuss more later

[Sonbeam]

Daniel 12:7
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. when the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

The above will happen about 3 1/2 days before the Second Coming.

Hi Sonbeam - I don't think you will be able to find anywhere in Scripture that identifies a "3.5 day period" that anything happens before the Second Coming - perhaps this is a typo?

Mr Baldy and WOODHENOT (on God's Wrath),


No, it is not a typo Mr B. I meant to say 3 1/2 days. The holy people referenced in the Daniel 12 passage I quoted are the two witnesses mentioned in Rev 11.

The Two Witnesses

Rev 11
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “[b]Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

At that time, all of those who died in Christ will rise up along with the two witnesses. Then in the blinking of an eye,
those saints who are alive and remain will be taken up to meet Him.

Immediately after He has raptured His Saints, God will pour out His Wrath on the world.


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

Shorty - you have taken the prophecy in Daniel 12 - and applied it to Daniel 7; and I believe this is in error.

Why? Give a good scriptural reason, please.
I have PROVEN that Both texts speak of the TIME of Great TRib....without ANY Doubt.
Please slow down some and re-read it.

As I mentioned before - and I will mention it again for the sake of edification; historically, the prophecy of Daniel 12:11-13 has been fulfilled.

I know what you already believe, that's why clearly i mentioned that in my post.

You mentioned Daniel 7 but you did not mention Daniel 11:31 - where the historically prophecy of Daniel 12:11-13 was very clearly fulfilled.

I do know the fulfilled prophecies by Antiochus...they DO Match those Time Periods...i will speak more to this in my Tabernacles Thread BECAUSE That's where the Shadow and Types are...Not in Daniel 9:27.
The Words in the texts PROVE THAT, as mention before, Atonement Sacrifice (9:27) is NOT the Daily By Antiochus, Dan. Chapters 11 and 12.

In closing - as I don't have much time (I'll respond after work with more)

I believe that is why my post Could have been Read Quickly and in Haste. Hopefully you will find the time to re-read it and consider it better.

You have mentioned Daniel 9:27 - refers to Christ.... and you may be right about that (at least the 1st half) But I contend that the very reading of Daniel 9:27 has two individuals mentioned. One being Christ and the other being the coming Antichrist. I believe that you prefer the King James Translation - which to my understanding is not a Word for Word Translation such as the NASB.

Hopefully, the Translation Rabbit hole ends here by my helping you know that the King James IS a Word for Word translation.

Please though, enough on that...it leads nowhere really.

Lastly - in your theory you have a problem with the numbers. Scripture identifies 70 weeks have been determined. Not 70 weeks plus 30 days - then an additional 45 days as you are applying Daniel 12:11-13. Just doesn't add up.

I will further explain that it does add up perfectly.

Gotta -go! - We'll discuss more later

Looking forward to that

[shorttribber]

At that time, all of those who died in Christ will rise up along with the two witnesses. Then in the blinking of an eye,
those saints who are alive and remain will be taken up to meet Him.

We won't be taken up in the Blink of an eye though...the text say, we will be Changed in the blink of an eye.
We will ascend into the clouds the same as the two witnesses do, most likely.

Just going by what the text actually says. The rate of our being caught up and the speed of the ascension of the two witnesses is just not known.

Just saw your post,it was just before my last one

[Sonbeam]

At that time, all of those who died in Christ will rise up along with the two witnesses. Then in the blinking of an eye,
those saints who are alive and remain will be taken up to meet Him.

We won't be taken up in the Blink of an eye though...the text say, we will be Changed in the blink of an eye.
We will ascend into the clouds the same as the two witnesses do, most likely.

Just going by what the text actually says. The rate of our being caught up and the speed of the ascension of the two witnesses is just not known.

Just saw your post,it was just before my last one

Yes, I agree ST. The saints who remain must be changed. They cannot go up in the flesh.

As to the speed of the rapture overall, I bet it will be fast.



Here's 1 Thess Chap 4 on that:

Believers Who Have Died

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

sonbeam