Have We Entered the Tribulation?

[shorttribber]

1 Cor 15: 51 and 52 describe the events we'll. Vs 51 ends with a comma, saying, we shall be changed, in a moment.

[Sonbeam]

1 Cor 15: 51 and 52 describe the events we'll. Vs 51 ends with a comma, saying, we shall be changed, in a moment.

Yes, Paul expands here on what he said in 1 Thes Chap 4, and this gives us an idea on what to expect
at the Second Coming.


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

1 Cor 15: 51 and 52 describe the events we'll. Vs 51 ends with a comma, saying, we shall be changed, in a moment.

Yes, Paul expands here on what he said in 1 Thes Chap 4, and this gives us an idea on what to expect
at the Second Coming.


sonbeam

yep.

[WOODHENOT3]

Speaking of 1 Cor 15:

We shall be changed, I agree...it doesnt mention any rapture in that chapter. Since we are changed, nothing could harm us, if Jesus is descending, why are we going up? No where I can find that Jesus stops at the clouds. I'm just wondering...

Blessings....

[Mr Baldy]

Mr Baldy wrote:
Shorty - you have taken the prophecy in Daniel 12 - and applied it to Daniel 7; and I believe this is in error.

Why? Give a good scriptural reason, please. I have PROVEN that Both texts speak of the TIME of Great TRib....without ANY Doubt.

Yes, you have shown the Prophecy in Daniel 12; however, the text in Daniel 12 that refers to the Great Tribulation are in verses 1 - 4. Then Daniel is told to "shut up the words and seal the book." What you have done is taken the verses in Daniel 12:11-13 and applied it to fit the prophecy in Daniel 7 - this is what I believe to be in error.

Now here is the reason why...…

First of all Scripture very clearly says that 70 weeks are determined. Not 70 weeks + 30 and then another 45 days. Secondly, Daniel 12:11-13 applies to the AOD mentioned in Daniel 11:31 - and you have completely ignored this. It is the only prophecy that makes sense, and absolutely fits to a "T" when Daniel gives the 1,290 & 1,335 days respectively.
So Shorty respectfully, your numbers are just not adding up.

I do know the fulfilled prophecies by Antiochus...they DO Match those Time Periods...i will speak more to this in my Tabernacles Thread BECAUSE That's where the Shadow and Types are...Not in Daniel 9:27.

Okay - I'm looking forward in seeing your Tabernacles Thread. However, I want to mention that you have supplied many Translations of Scripture as it relates to Daniel 9:27 - and I thank you for that. The problem still remains about two individuals being mentioned in Daniel 9:27 that being: The "he" who confirms a covenant with the many for a week; and puts an end to sacrifice & offerings -and the "one" who comes and makes desolate. This later half of Daniel 9:27 which mentions the "one who comes and makes desolate" which I feel was Titus - IMO clearly fits a type and shadow of what the coming Antichrist will perform - and what Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:15.

Hopefully, the Translation Rabbit hole ends here by my helping you know that the King James IS a Word for Word translation.

If the King James Version is a Word for Word (and I am not disagreeing) but so is the NASB - and there is a very clear discrepancy; in that one identifies the "he" as also being the one who is the desolater. The King James Version does that - the NASB doesn't ……. I'm not a Theologian, so if they are both Word for Word - then someone is wrong.

Here are some links I found regarding this matter:

https://www.biblegateway.com/blog/2017/ ... nslations/

https://carm.org/KJVO/is-the-kjv-the-mo ... ranslation

Please though, enough on that...it leads nowhere really.

Actually Shorty - it does.... because you have mentioned that the newer translations are not accurate - and we have an apparent discrepancy with Two Word for Word Bibles.

So inclosing -

I'm not trying to persuade you or anyone else to my way of thinking or Biblical interpretation. The bottom line is to find the Truth - and to edify the Body of Christ. I remain open to what you have to provide.

[shorttribber]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hi Mr. B.,
Can you tell me where in the Above text there is Any Mention AT ALL of a TIME for God's Wrath UPON Ubelieving Gentiles or antichrist?

Not there right?

First of all Scripture very clearly says that 70 weeks are determined. Not 70 weeks + 30 and then another 45 days.

Right, 70 Weeks Determined on Thy People (Some will say only Jews and others like you and i would say ALL of the Elect) AND upon Thy Holy City ( the Literal and the Spiritual actually, but literalist would say only the Literal City).

Any mention in the Least about WHAT TIME is Determined upon the World, antichrist or anything like that?

Nope, not a Peep!

The 30 days will be THE TIME Determined for Destruction and Wrath being Poured Out on the defiant Unbelieving World and antichrist!

And THAT is Why those LAST END DAYS (30 of them) are NOT a Part of the 70th week, but occur immediately AFTER them.

Nothing more can be said about Bible translations .....just Like David and i have said, There is ONE Person in view (Messiah the Prince) He Decrees the desolation, He Confirms the Covenant And He Outpours on the Desolate in the End.


Now, before you answer, i already know your objection....." the Whole Great Trib is God's Wrath!" you will probably say.
Well, to that i say, prove it....i have better proof to the contrary.

Blessings...ain't this just get'n Good!

[shorttribber]

Speaking of 1 Cor 15:

We shall be changed, I agree...it doesnt mention any rapture in that chapter. Since we are changed, nothing could harm us, if Jesus is descending, why are we going up? No where I can find that Jesus stops at the clouds. I'm just wondering...

Blessings....

Rev 14 Woody..that's really descriptive.

[WOODHENOT3]

Speaking of 1 Cor 15:

We shall be changed, I agree...it doesnt mention any rapture in that chapter. Since we are changed, nothing could harm us, if Jesus is descending, why are we going up? No where I can find that Jesus stops at the clouds. I'm just wondering...

Blessings....

Rev 14 Woody..that's really descriptive.

Thanks Bro, I'll check it out...

[Mark F]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hi Mr. B.,
Can you tell me where in the Above text there is Any Mention AT ALL of a TIME for God's Wrath UPON Ubelieving Gentiles or antichrist?

Not there right?

First of all Scripture very clearly says that 70 weeks are determined. Not 70 weeks + 30 and then another 45 days.

Right, 70 Weeks Determined on Thy People (Some will say only Jews and others like you and i would say ALL of the Elect) AND upon Thy Holy City ( the Literal and the Spiritual actually, but literalist would say only the Literal City).

Any mention in the Least about WHAT TIME is Determined upon the World, antichrist or anything like that?

Nope, not a Peep!

The 30 days will be THE TIME Determined for Destruction and Wrath being Poured Out on the defiant Unbelieving World and antichrist!

And THAT is Why those LAST END DAYS (30 of them) are NOT a Part of the 70th week, but occur immediately AFTER them.

Nothing more can be said about Bible translations .....just Like David and i have said, There is ONE Person in view (Messiah the Prince) He Decrees the desolation, He Confirms the Covenant And He Outpours on the Desolate in the End.


Now, before you answer, i already know your objection....." the Whole Great Trib is God's Wrath!" you will probably say.
Well, to that i say, prove it....i have better proof to the contrary.

Blessings...ain't this just get'n Good!

This is an interesting post, you make some valid points to consider.

I did you a favor, how about you do one for me in return?

Would you give me a succinct explanation as to why you, or you and David, believe Messiah should be understood to be the personage that confirms a covenant for one week? Mind you, I completely disagree, but I would ask you to try and convince me.

Forums can be difficult because sometimes as you post fragments all over and it's sometimes difficult to put together a clear understanding of what and why you take certain positions.

Humor me and explain it with clarity so even a person who is thick headed like myself could understand it. This position of yours affects my understanding of the things you post so it may give me clarity, and that isn't to say I won't honestly consider it if it has merit.

I suppose you need to explain to me why you drop the prince who is to come from the passage to refer back to Messiah.

Please.

[Exit40]

David, you are limiting what the first part of the verse states,

Simple question Jay. But thanks for your entire end time scenario.

God Bless You

David

[Mr Baldy]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hi Mr. B.,Can you tell me where in the Above text there is Any Mention AT ALL of a TIME for God's Wrath UPON Ubelieving Gentiles or antichrist?

I actually laughed at this statement Shorty - and I must say that I am really enjoying this fellowship

Now - back to business.... I find it really amazing that you have incorporated your view of God's Wrath from Daniel 12:11-13 into a period of time AFTER the 70th week. You have provided absolutely NO Scriptural evidence to support this.

Any mention in the Least about WHAT TIME is Determined upon the World, antichrist or anything like that?

How about Revelation 6:12-17 - and Revelation 14:10? These two particular passages of Scripture very clearly document the Great Tribulation period - and the Wrath of God. This is within the final 3.5 years as I continue to mention.

The 30 days will be THE TIME Determined for Destruction and Wrath being Poured Out on the defiant Unbelieving World and antichrist!

Shorty - you have absolutely NO Scriptural evidence to support your 30 day Wrath theory.

Nothing more can be said about Bible translations .....just Like David and i have said, There is ONE Person in view (Messiah the Prince) He Decrees the desolation, He Confirms the Covenant And He Outpours on the Desolate in the End.

Respectfully, You appear to want to avoid your King James Version Word for Word verses the NASB which is also a Word for Word Translation and admit the discrepancy. So, I don't think it is good idea to be so dogmatic about your view, unless you can settle this very clear act of difference with sound Scriptural Evidence. It is clear to me in multiple Translations that there is one who stops the sacrifices and has a 7 year agreement - and there is one who comes and makes it desolate; however, I am open your way of understanding - just prove it. So an honest assessment without dogma should most certainly be considered.

Now, before you answer, i already know your objection....." the Whole Great Trib is God's Wrath!" you will probably say. Well, to that i say, prove it....i have better proof to the contrary.

For the sake of time I will provide the verses of Scripture that Clearly Show God's Wrath is poured out during the final 3.5 years - and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the number of days you continue to mention in Daniel 12:11-13. By the way, you have STILL YET to respond or comment that I have mentioned the number of days (1,290 & 1,335) were actually fulfilled during the AOD mentioned in Daniel 11:31.....Why is that

Now Here is your proof - and with Scripture I might add:

1) Revelation 6:12-17
2) Revelation 14:10
3) Revelation 15:1
4) Revelation 16:1 -
5) 2 Peter 3:7-10

The aforementioned passages of Scripture very CLEARLY show the Wrath of God being poured out in the final 3.5 years.

In closing Shorty -

You have indicated a 30 day Wrath period AFTER the Great Tribulation - which have demonstrated doesn't add up with Scripture. Not only does it NOT add up with the 70 weeks determined - but you have yet to explain the extra 45 days as well.

Let me show you what Scripture says occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-31 -New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Glorious Return

29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

This is what is being described as occurring IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days. Is there a 30 wrath mentioned

Sooooooooo now that we can very clearly see that Jesus Returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation....let's see what He does:

Matthew 25:31-33 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

There is a Final 3.5 year period of time yet to come clearly identified by Scripture. There will be a Great Tribulation during this time. Jesus Returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER this - Resurrection occurs; Judgement Ensues; The Eternal State begins; It is THE LAST DAY.

[WOODHENOT3]

[shorttribber]

ST wrote: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

shorttribber wrote:
Hi Mr. B.,Can you tell me where in the Above text there is Any Mention AT ALL of a TIME for God's Wrath UPON Ubelieving Gentiles or antichrist?

Mr B. wrote:
I actually laughed at this statement Shorty - and I must say that I am really enjoying this fellowship

Ok, i don't know why the laughter though. i think it was a legitimate question. and i'm enjoying the fellowship and challenge also

Now - back to business.... I find it really amazing that you have incorporated your view of God's Wrath from Daniel 12:11-13 into a period of time AFTER the 70th week. You have provided absolutely NO Scriptural evidence to support this.

First, i didn't once mention Daniel 12: 12-13 at all. Go back a see for yourself.

shorttribber wrote: (The post shows that i was referring Specifically to Dan 9:24 )
Any mention in the Least about WHAT TIME is Determined upon the World, antichrist or anything like that?
Mr B. wrote:
How about Revelation 6:12-17 - and Revelation 14:10? These two particular passages of Scripture very clearly document the Great Tribulation period - and the Wrath of God. This is within the final 3.5 years as I continue to mention.

First, i asked specifically about Dan 9:24 ( if God's Wrath were anywhere mentioned in THAT Text), The Wrath of God is OBVIOUSLY Mentioned in other texts Mr. Br.' and i will address those places you've mentioned.

Shorty - you have absolutely NO Scriptural evidence to support your 30 day Wrath theory.

Actually i do Mr. B., but apparently, due to how quickly you may have read my last post, you've somehow overlooked them.

I do think it best that before you form answers in rebuttal, you should Carefully Read what a person actually writes.

I don't want to address the translation issue with the NASB compared to the KJV.......as i said, it pointless.
I will just say this, i have an NASB also, and in the beginning when referring to the translation, They admitted that they DID place interpretive words where THEY THOUGHT HELPFUL, it's not Word for WORD Completely, NO TRANSLATION IS. NOT ONE, including the KJV.

For the sake of time I will provide the verses of Scripture that Clearly Show God's Wrath is poured out during the final 3.5 years - and have absolutely NOTHING to do with the number of days you continue to mention in Daniel 12:11-13. By the way, you have STILL YET to respond or comment that I have mentioned the number of days (1,290 & 1,335) were actually fulfilled during the AOD mentioned in Daniel 11:31.....Why is that

Now Here is your proof - and with Scripture I might add:

1) Revelation 6:12-17
2) Revelation 14:10
3) Revelation 15:1
4) Revelation 16:1 -
5) 2 Peter 3:7-10

First, i have not mentioned that ( 45 days and Daniel 11 31 ) yet because i intend to comment more specifically on them in my "Tabernacles of his Palace" thread......so i will get to it.

Now to your Supposed "Proof".
Rev 6: 12-17 is an overview of the Time that follows...That LITERAL Space in Time Occurs in REAL-TIME with Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 14:10 is "Definitive Interlude" in the vision and IF you notice the TEXT SAYS "SHALL DRINK of God's Wrath Poured Out Without Mixture"
Did YOU Notice what the TEXT Plainly Says? Poured Out.....as in BOWLS OF WRATH, WITHOUT MIXTURE. And THOSE are Poured Out AFTER the Seventh, "LAST Tump".
Rev 15 AND Rev 16 ARE the BOWL Judgements.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
.................................
Rev 16
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

As to 2 Peter, there is no Mention of ANYTHING that the Seals or Trumpets would compare to.
And the Trumpets ALONE are what OCCUR in REAL-TIME DURING the 3.5 YEARS.

Not the Seals, Not the Trumpets, BUT ONLY the "Bowls OF WRATH" ARE God's WRATH! ( Those Bowls ARE CLEARLY and PLAINLY STATED AS the Wrath of God in the TEXT Without "READING INTO IT").

Realy Mr. B., you should abide by your Own Rules, and not "Read Into" something that isn't there in the text.

You have indicated a 30 day Wrath period AFTER the Great Tribulation - which have demonstrated doesn't add up with Scripture.

I think you need to reread my post, because it does add up.

Not only does it NOT add up with the 70 weeks determined - but you have yet to explain the extra 45 days as well.

Now, please answer my Original Question regarding the FACT that God's Wrath IS NOT mentioned in Daniel 9:24.

And, as i said, i will be addressing the 1,335 days in my other thread.

This is what is being described as occurring IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days. Is there a 30 wrath mentioned

Sooooooooo now that we can very clearly see that Jesus Returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation....let's see what He does:

Let's compare two texts shall we....

29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Seems to me there MUST BE SOME TIME AFTER the "Tribulation" of "THOSE DAYS" For the sun to BECOME black as sackcloth of hair, AND FOR the moon BECOME as blood; AND FOR the stars of heaven TO FALL unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Now, what i noticed was that THE TEXT SAYS "The Tribulation of those days"

Does Jesus say Immediately AFTER The WRATH of Those Days Mr. B.?

Again, you need to be careful not to "Read Into the Text" as much as you do sometimes.

With blessings and

editing in One More Thing

Please Read this next scripture to strengthen your Understanding on this matter.
Mark 13
NASB
"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT...
KJV
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
NCV
"During the days after this trouble comes, 'the sun will grow dark, and the moon will not give its light.
ASV
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
WYC
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be made dark, and the moon shall not give her light,
NRSA
"But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,

Do you Notice anything interesting About THOSE DAYS mentioned that Occurs AFTER THAT Tribulation? Isn't the Little Gospel of Mark Helpful on this subject

[shorttribber]

deleted post

[shorttribber]

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hi Mr. B.,
Can you tell me where in the Above text there is Any Mention AT ALL of a TIME for God's Wrath UPON Ubelieving Gentiles or antichrist?

Not there right?

First of all Scripture very clearly says that 70 weeks are determined. Not 70 weeks + 30 and then another 45 days.

Right, 70 Weeks Determined on Thy People (Some will say only Jews and others like you and i would say ALL of the Elect) AND upon Thy Holy City ( the Literal and the Spiritual actually, but literalist would say only the Literal City).

Any mention in the Least about WHAT TIME is Determined upon the World, antichrist or anything like that?

Nope, not a Peep!

The 30 days will be THE TIME Determined for Destruction and Wrath being Poured Out on the defiant Unbelieving World and antichrist!

And THAT is Why those LAST END DAYS (30 of them) are NOT a Part of the 70th week, but occur immediately AFTER them.

Nothing more can be said about Bible translations .....just Like David and i have said, There is ONE Person in view (Messiah the Prince) He Decrees the desolation, He Confirms the Covenant And He Outpours on the Desolate in the End.


Now, before you answer, i already know your objection....." the Whole Great Trib is God's Wrath!" you will probably say.
Well, to that i say, prove it....i have better proof to the contrary.

Blessings...ain't this just get'n Good!

This is an interesting post, you make some valid points to consider.

Very polite and wise to say so, thankyou.

I did you a favor, how about you do one for me in return?

Would you give me a succinct explanation as to why you, or you and David, believe Messiah should be understood to be the personage that confirms a covenant for one week? Mind you, I completely disagree, but I would ask you to try and convince me.

I will certainly do you the favor

Forums can be difficult because sometimes as you post fragments all over and it's sometimes difficult to put together a clear understanding of what and why you take certain positions.
Humor me and explain it with clarity so even a person who is thick headed like myself could understand it. This position of yours affects my understanding of the things you post so it may give me clarity, and that isn't to say I won't honestly consider it if it has merit.
I suppose you need to explain to me why you drop the prince who is to come from the passage to refer back to Messiah.
Please.

Ok Mark, i'll try to explain it this way.....

You are familiar enough with the general texts and verses so i will only put the references in as needed, so as and try to be as clear and brief as possible.

Daniel 9 says such and such a time until Messiah the Prince, and after such time Messiah with be Cut off,
THEN the text says, And the People of the PRINCE that Shall Come shall destroy the city and the sancuary.

In the past i think i directed you to my Chiasm thread....if you do not recall it, i will help you find it...but the interpretation of the text IS NOT Dependant on chiastic structure, but it IS Informative and Supportive of what i will hereafter write.

Note above, the text says "The People of the prince that SHALL COME" are the ones who "Destroy or in other Hebrew meaning, "Corrupt" the city and the sanctuary.

This is one of the most important parts of the verse, and i will tell why.
The Sadducees, Pharisees and Scribes had an understanding of Daniel 9 that the "The People of the prince that shall Come" WERE Actually the Zealots!
They, the Scribes and Pharisees Thought that Messiah the Prince WHO "SHALL" COME WAS Referring to Christ!
And that Christ, WITH the Zeolts and Followers Christ would have WERE the Ones who were going to destroy the Temple!
This is one of the reasons WHY they asked him, Are You Going to Destroy the Temple? or "He said he was going to Destroy the Temple", when he was at his mock trial!

You see, they actually understood the entire passage to refer to their Coming Messiah! There could have been others too though that believed that it Could have been referring to the Romans as well, a coming Roman prince such as Titus!

This created great chaos and confusion as you can imagine, especially when probably as many as Four of the 12 that Christ called to him WERE Zealots more than likely!

Why would God Arrange the Wording as such to make it seem as though it Could be BOTH WAYS?
Because it WAS Both ways, that's why!

What i've tried so many times without much success is to point out the Dual prophecy in view in the text.

It's not that One is Right and the Other is wrong. They are Both right when the UNDERSTANDING is that ONE is the Primary Fulfilment, and the Other is Secondary.

THAT IS the Key!

When i go to work on my Tabernacles of his Palace thread, i will be explaining this much more.

Now suffice to say this much at this time in this thread, Messiah Was the Coming Prince to be cut off, and he was the prince of the People (The Jews/Zealots) that would come and He Confirmed the Covenant AND Decreed the Desolations.
AND HE Christ will OUTPOUR on the Desolate One/Ones antichrist and those following him at the End.

THAT'S the Primary Meaning of the Prophecy, but as i said, it did have a Secondary Meaning as well and WAS FULFILLED by Titus and is Clearly evidenced in Lukes Gospel.

I will add this last part.........
This WAS and IS ONE OF the ways God SEALED UP the Vision in Daniel till the time of the End.
The Other TWO WAYS will be explained in my Tabernacles Thread.

[WOODHENOT3]

Hi Shorttribber!
I must say, I have had always believed the wrath to be after the Great Tribulation also, and I was amazed with all the scriptural evidence you came up with! Thank you for taking your time to post all this stuff... pretty convincing!! I cannot tell you how much I've learned from this thread... God bless you!!

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Shorty -

Now let's do address a few things you have mentioned.

Now, please answer my Original Question regarding the FACT that God's Wrath IS NOT mentioned in Daniel 9:24.

First, my apologies - I did reread the post and you did not mentioned it. As I tracked the post, what you did was switch from one segment of Daniel to another - you never answered my question concerning Daniel 12:11-13; and asked your question about Daniel 9:24, and I had assumed that you did. So I missed that.....and this was, I believe, the turning point of an apparent misunderstanding on my part of our debate. It was highly relevant - but moving forward, we don't have to revisit it at this moment as I want to get to your points about God's WRATH and your other comments.

I don't want to address the translation issue with the NASB compared to the KJV.......as i said, it pointless.

Well I highly disagree...and here's why...…….. If it is pointless, why were you making such a big issue on modern translations - even going as far as to say:

Here's the List of many of the Modern Translations that virtually Slaughter the REAL Meaning of Daniel 9:27

I am hoping you haven't chosen the KJV because it better fits your theory - which I say still has many holes in it, and just doesn't add up - and I'll prove it.

As read your rebuttal - I noticed a lot of assumptions on your part - as well as a lot of "READING INTO" Scripture. Additionally, I noticed some apparent misinformation as well - so let's address those issues:

First - I gave you Scriptural Evidence that the Wrath of God is poured out during the last 3.5 years - and I completely, and wholeheartedly stand by that,,,,,,

Rev 6: 12-17 is an overview of the Time that follows...That LITERAL Space in Time Occurs in REAL-TIME with Rev 11:18

Yes - I agree and it's completely going on DURING the last 3.5 years. PERIOD

Rev 14:10 is "Definitive Interlude" in the vision and IF you notice the TEXT SAYS "SHALL DRINK of God's Wrath Poured Out Without Mixture "Did YOU Notice what the TEXT Plainly Says? Poured Out.....as in BOWLS OF WRATH, WITHOUT MIXTURE. And THOSE are Poured Out AFTER the Seventh, "LAST Tump".Rev 15 AND Rev 16 ARE the BOWL Judgements.7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled..................................Rev 16 1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Again, I agree. Thanks for further providing an explanation and/or information of the PROOF of Scriptures I mentioned describing exactly what is occurring during the Great Tribulation and/or Final 3.5 years. I've noticed that you have yet to refute anything I've provided in those passages of Scripture that it doesn't occur during this time.

Not the Seals, Not the Trumpets, BUT ONLY the "Bowls OF WRATH" ARE God's WRATH! ( Those Bowls ARE CLEARLY and PLAINLY STATED AS the Wrath of God in the TEXT Without "READING INTO IT").

Yet again I agree. Where have I "read into" anything And I ask - so what's your point

Again, you have YET to prove that this isn't occurring during the Great Tribulation - or Final 3.5 year time period before Christ Returns.

As to 2 Peter, there is no Mention of ANYTHING that the Seals or Trumpets would compare to. And the Trumpets ALONE are what OCCUR in REAL-TIME DURING the 3.5 YEARS.

I mentioned 2 Peter 3:7-10 to Illustrate a very clear Point about the Day Of The Lord - as this happens on the LAST DAY. But for now, I want to bring to your attention what you wrote in your aforementioned comments.
Now, let's continue on with your comparison and what I wrote AFTER The Tribulation of those Days:

Mr Baldy wrote:
29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Seems to me there MUST BE SOME TIME AFTER the "Tribulation" of "THOSE DAYS" For the sun to BECOME black as sackcloth of hair, AND FOR the moon BECOME as blood; AND FOR the stars of heaven TO FALL unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

"MUST BE SOME TIME AFTER the Tribulation of THOSE DAYS" - ehhh

Now Here is where you are making a HUGE ASSUMPTION. What you have failed to mention here is - this is where you personally BELIEVE the your 30 days of God Wrath fits in - yet as I have continuously mentioned you absolutely CANNOT support it with Scripture. The timing of how long these things last is not provided!
What we see is JESUS coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation along with these things. You failed to mention that.

Earlier I mentioned 2 Peter 3:7-10 - this is where the Day of the Lord occurs. On the LAST DAY these events also work in conjunction with His Coming; however (another topic, but this is also why I cannot believe in a literal Millennial Reign)

Again, you need to be careful not to "Read Into the Text" as much as you do sometimes.

Shorty...… ya killing me bro. There is absolutely nothing I have "read into" - on the contrary, if one is not very carefully following the words you put in your comments - they could be seen as being almost plausible. The point of the matter is that in your "ShortTrib" Theory has major holes - and you have yet to prove it.

In love and I mean this.....and in closing:

To believe your theory first of all causes a lot of "spiritualizing'" "reading into" and many "assumptions" - that I personally, just can't buy into. To my understanding - you believe that we are currently "in the midst of the 70th week."
Not only is this impossible - but there is no other time recorded in the history of the World where God has literally allowed time to stop; then identify an interim period of time consisting of thousands of years called the "midst" before the end of this time is completed. Also known as what you are apparently identifying as the 70th week. Makes no sense.

Secondly - you appear to identify a 30 day period of the Wrath of God being poured out AFTER the Tribulation - and no where can this be found in Scripture - and no where have you proved it.

Third - you have accused me of "reading into" Scripture - and you have shown no evidence of that. What you have shown is your own interpretation of Scripture - which has fallen short of matching up what Scripture actually says. You have not proven your theory at all.

[Mr Baldy]

Do you Notice anything interesting About THOSE DAYS mentioned that Occurs AFTER THAT Tribulation? Isn't the Little Gospel of Mark Helpful on this subject

Interesting that you should mention the Gospel of Mark - is it because you believe it to most fit your theory?

Well.... let's take a look at it:

The Return of Christ

24) “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, 25) and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26) Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27) And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

I took the liberty of posting the entire portion of Mark 13 that relate to your comments - as you appeared to have left some of it out. We should apply the entire passages of Scripture in order to properly get the context - and compare it to your "ShortTrib" theory.

As I recall, you "believe" the aforementioned period of time (days after the tribulation) lasts for 30 days; you further identify it as the Wrath of God - yet you have no Scriptural evidence to support that theory. Furthermore, you have clearly stated that you believe the Body of Christ will go through the Great Tribulation.

Well continuing on with verses 26-27 We see Jesus Coming; further sending the angels to gather His Elect. If your theory is correct - then how can you have them going through the Tribulation, and His Wrath

I also want to point out something else you mentioned:

And the Trumpets ALONE are what OCCUR in REAL-TIME DURING the 3.5 YEARS. Not the Seals, Not the Trumpets, BUT ONLY the "Bowls OF WRATH" ARE God's WRATH! ( Those Bowls ARE CLEARLY and PLAINLY STATED AS the Wrath of God in the TEXT Without "READING INTO IT").

I'm not sure how you are coming up with saying that the Bowls of Wrath are not poured out during the 3.5 years. If you have any Scriptural support or evidence that shows this not occurring during the 3.5 Years - then prove it. I don't think you can, and Scripture is very clear about the timing of these events.

Again - you appear to be taking Daniel 12:11-13 and justifying at least the 30 days as a period of Wrath- and providing absolutely NO Scriptural evidence. And you have also failed to mention the 45 ensuing days as well.
All you have provided is your opinion.

In closing -

We all can find little portions of Scripture to fit; attempt to justify; or make it say what we "believe; think; or feel." Problem is..... is the interpretation: Trustworthy, Truthful; Accurate; Reliable; or Sound Doctrine?

[WOODHENOT3]

Mr. Baldy,
Mind me.... where are there's evidence that 1290 days are fulfilled?
What was the 30 days after the 1260 days significant to?
The Anti-Christ persecutes the Saints for 3.5 years in Great Tribulation at the same time God's pouring his wrath is what you believe?

I'm kind of confused what you believe Mr Baldy...Jesus comes after the Great Tribulation and we are with Him forever... seems simple enough as Matthew 24 states, I believe it's obvious that when Jesus was speaking of Tribulation, he was referring to the Great Tribulations. After the Great Tribulations, isn't it God's wrath that casted out Satan?
All Christians are here to the END. Sometimes I believe we need to take scripture simple and not dig too far deep on one word like the word "Immediately".... God's timing is much different than ours....I see the word Immediately as if I was in California and I tell my friends in Massachusetts, Im coming immediately.... I am on the way and Im coming....How long? you don't know the day and hour.... we need to be cautious on how we choose a word from scripture and justifying it in our own translation....I know this is an ongoing thread and it is good, we are all a team here... I always say to my friends, We will know when we get there... I like all the scriptures you guys bring up... I'm cautious and observing...
God bless you and have a wonderful day!

[shorttribber]

Interesting that you should mention the Gospel of Mark - is it because you believe it to most fit your theory?

It best illustrates that There IS Time Remaining AFTER "THAT Tribulation" He had just mentioned.
If it does "Most Fit" my theory, is that a bad thing?
Do you not agree with what is Plainly Written in that Gospel, because it Doesn't Fit your theory very well?

The Return of Christ

24) “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, 25) and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26) Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27) And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

I took the liberty of posting the entire portion of Mark 13 that relate to your comments - as you appeared to have left some of it out. We should apply the entire passages of Scripture in order to properly get the context - and compare it to your "ShortTrib" theory.

I only posted that portion of the text for two reasons.....
First, because i wanted to list the several versions easily together (with color highlighting) to illustrate the near exact wording in each of those versions.....incidentally, i Only listed a few...Nearly ALL Versions Read the same way.
Second, because i knew you would be inclined to post the remainder of it for me, and it would Lead Directly to my next Important Point

Here's that "Next Important Point"........

If your theory is correct - then how can you have them going through the Tribulation, and His Wrath

I didn't say they Go through the trib AND God's Wrath. That is YOUR misunderstanding of what i've written.
What i believe is that within A DAY or TWO or THREE, OR within Mere Seconds (we can't KNOW the DAY or HOUR ) AFTER the 3.5 Year Great Trib, Christ Will Come, and THEN The WRATH of God BEGINS TO BE Poured Out.

Now at this point, i would like to point out ANOTHER SET of Scriptures that Fully Supports and Absolutely PROVES Beyond ANY Refutation, that THERE WILL BE TIME REMAINING AFTER the Gathering of the Elect to Christ in the Clouds (The Rapture) and That the WRATH of God BEGINS THEN and ONLY THEN.

You ready for this Mr. B.?
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

You Catch that Mr. B.? ....... The Rapture Gathering THEN The Wrath, The TIME of God's WRATH

Now if you Still need MORE PROOF, then here is the NEXT GEM!

Rev. 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

At This Point IN THE TEXT, Does it not say "His Judgements"? or Does the TEXT SAY "His WRATH"?
Without READING INTO THE TEXT, What does it say Mr. B.?

Now to continue......

..................6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb

THEN...The SCRIPTURE Continues......

...............11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Now get Ready Mr. B!.......... ...............Here it Comes!

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


And there's STILL MORE Mr. B....THINGS and Events that STILL REQUIRE MORE TIME YET!

.........16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Now would you LOOK at That Mr. B.
Just Take a Read at ALL THE THINGS THAT WILL OCCUR AFTER The Rapture!


The Rapture...THEN...TIME REMAINING for God's Wrath to be OUTPOURED!




Blessings Brother

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. Baldy, Mind me.... where are there's evidence that 1290 days are fulfilled? What was the 30 days after the 1260 days significant to?

Hi Woody -
I don't know how closely you've been tracking this thread - but earlier I mentioned that the 1,290 days were fulfilled historically during the Jewish-Roman War by none other than Titus. This fulfilled the prophecy in Daniel 12:11-13. Additionally, the AOD mentioned in this prophecy referred to the AOD mentioned in Daniel 11:31 that no one seems to want to acknowledge:

Daniel 11:31 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

31) Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 12:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11) From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12) How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

The Historian Josephus documents the aforementioned events.

The Anti-Christ persecutes the Saints for 3.5 years in Great Tribulation at the same time God's pouring his wrath is what you believe?

Yes - absolutely.

I'm kind of confused what you believe Mr Baldy...Jesus comes after the Great Tribulation and we are with Him forever... seems simple enough as Matthew 24 states, I believe it's obvious that when Jesus was speaking of Tribulation, he was referring to the Great Tribulations. After the Great Tribulations, isn't it God's wrath that casted out Satan?

Just be clear - Jesus mentions a time prior to the AOD He identifies as "birth pangs." We have to remember the questions that the Disciples asked Jesus concerning events prior to the End of the World. Jesus answered these questions, which had multiple fulfilments; and not to all be fulfilled a the same time. The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD is an example. I mentioned the "birth pangs" period time prior to the AOD as the Tribulation - but actually it could have multiple fulfillments as well. It could have applied to the time prior to time Titus committed the AOD - which I believe was also a "type and shadow" of the time prior to the Final AOD. So we have a difference in interpretation as far as what the Great Tribulation actually is - as Scripture does not give a definite time period of how long it lasts; only that it happens within the Final 3.5 years.

Now -you have mentioned that it's God's Wrath that casted out Satan. Well, I don't see that theory supported with Scripture. What I see is Satan cast into the Lake of Fire with the Beast (Final World Empire) and False Prophet (Antichrist). Scripture says after the 1,000 years are up - but I believe this is metaphorical language, as I don't believe there is a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ. I believe it ALL Ends on the LAST DAY - when He Comes with His Kingdom.

All Christians are here to the END. Sometimes I believe we need to take scripture simple and not dig too far deep on one word like the word "Immediately".... God's timing is much different than ours

Yes, I completely agree. And this is why I see problems with Shorty's "ShortTrib" Theory.

I know this is an ongoing thread and it is good, we are all a team here... I always say to my friends, We will know when we get there... I like all the scriptures you guys bring up... I'm cautious and observing... God bless you and have a wonderful day!

Thanks Woody - I want to say for the record that Short and I have debated on things for a few years now. Some things we agree on - some we do not. Bottom line is whether or not we agree or disagree, it's irrelevant - the goal is to Glorify God and edify the Body of Christ - and all are welcome to chime in. There are no silver bullet answers to any of this, if that were the case - someone would surely have discovered it by now. Even great Theologians debate about End Time prophecy - and it doesn't make them any less Christian. These are secondary issues - as Surely Christ will get it ALL right at His Return.

In closing....here how I view it:

I think now is a time that we may have entered the period of time prior to the AOD - and Antichrist will be revealed soon. These things that are occurring must be looked upon as being very, very serious - as I really believe that the AOD will go virtually unnoticed.

I believe that the prophecies of Daniel have already been fulfilled - with the exception of the AOD that is coming. The prior AOD was a "type & shadow" of what the coming Antichrist will perform; it will begin the Final 3.5 year period of time; set the stage for Great Tribulation; and the Body of Christ will most certainly be persecuted for this time period just as Scripture mentions.

Additionally, I believe that the 70 weeks have been completed and fulfilled. Time didn't just stop and we are in a lull of time called the "midst" in our space and time continuum - this has never made any sense to me. The 3.5 year period of time that we continuously see mentioned in Scripture is it's own prophecy - yet many want to combine it in with Daniel 9:24 - well it just doesn't add up.

Finally - I believe that when Jesus Returns, THAT'S IT. The Last Day. Resurrection (John 5:28-29); Rapture; Judgment; The Day of the Lord just as 2 Peter 3:7-10 describes. His Eternal Kingdom commences. And for those who keep mentioning the Millennial Kingdom - I say...What does it matter? You will have received an Immortal Body at His Coming, and Eternal Life.

[Mr Baldy]

It best illustrates that There IS Time Remaining AFTER "THAT Tribulation" He had just mentioned.

No problem

If it does "Most Fit" my theory, is that a bad thing?

No, no at all. Anything you can use to support your theory Scripturally please submit for edification; reproof, and correction for consideration.

I only posted that portion of the text for two reasons.....First, because i wanted to list the several versions easily together (with color highlighting) to illustrate the near exact wording in each of those versions.....incidentally, i Only listed a few...Nearly ALL Versions Read the same way. Second, because i knew you would be inclined to post the remainder of it for me, and it would Lead Directly to my next Important Point

No problems - and it' good that we are understanding a bit of each others way of interpretation. It helps

I didn't say they Go through the trib AND God's Wrath. That is YOUR misunderstanding of what i've written. What i believe is that within A DAY or TWO or THREE, OR within Mere Seconds (we can't KNOW the DAY or HOUR ) AFTER the 3.5 Year Great Trib, Christ Will Come, and THEN The WRATH of God BEGINS TO BE Poured Out.

Interesting...…. I believe that this is the first evidence I've seen that you are mentioning this time of God's Wrath in your opinion as not being united to a 30 day time period. More on God's Wrath at this point a bit later....

Now at this point, i would like to point out ANOTHER SET of Scriptures that Fully Supports and Absolutely PROVES Beyond ANY Refutation, that THERE WILL BE TIME REMAINING AFTER the Gathering of the Elect to Christ in the Clouds (The Rapture) and That the WRATH of God BEGINS THEN and ONLY THEN.

I believe that a bit of Scriptural clarification is in order here...…
First of All..... in your aforementioned comments you have clearly removed the Body of Christ from the Earth, and associated this period of Wrath beginning - When Matthew 24 refutes this notion. Secondly, and back to your 30 days of Wrath period, please show me where the 30 days are apparent?

You Catch that Mr. B.? ....... The Rapture Gathering THEN The Wrath, The TIME of God's WRATH

Shorty - what I "caught" was metaphorical language that appears to be describing a time in which the battle of Armageddon is ensuing - and this same period of time is further being described as occurring during the 3.5 years. I'm not sure if this actually the Rapture of the Church Occurring at this time, as the sickle mentioned could also mean Judgment as in verse 19 states: "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Rev. 19 1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. At This Point IN THE TEXT, Does it not say "His Judgements"? or Does the TEXT SAY "His WRATH"?

Very Glad you posted the aforementioned Shorty - now lets examine it:

Revelation 19 is very clearly mentioning the Return of Christ. Matthew 24 describes Christ Returning Immediately After the Tribulation and Gathering us unto Him. According to what you have posted, it appears His Judgments are made in conjunction with His Wrath which was poured out. His Wrath is a result His Judgment - and NOT the other way around.
His Return happens on the LAST DAY. This Judgment/Wrath could very well be occurring simultaneously.

By the way... you STILL HAVE NOT proven your 30 day "ShortTrib" theory.

[shorttribber]

shorttribber wrote:
Now at this point, i would like to point out ANOTHER SET of Scriptures that Fully Supports and Absolutely PROVES Beyond ANY Refutation, that THERE WILL BE TIME REMAINING AFTER the Gathering of the Elect to Christ in the Clouds (The Rapture) and That the WRATH of God BEGINS THEN and ONLY THEN.

Mr B. wrote: I believe that a bit of Scriptural clarification is in order here...…
First of All..... in your aforementioned comments you have clearly removed the Body of Christ from the Earth, and associated this period of Wrath beginning - When Matthew 24 refutes this notion. Secondly, and back to your 30 days of Wrath period, please show me where the 30 days are apparent?

How is that? What is contrary to Mathew 24 in what i posted of Rev. 14 ?
That IS what happens in the Rapture, the Body of Christ IS removed from the Earth, and Rev 14 Proves the Wrath of God that Clearly follows.

Secondly, and back to your 30 days of Wrath period, please show me where the 30 days are apparent?

That's not necessary at this point....i'm only attempting to show at this point that there is IN FACT Some Kind of Time Remaining AFTER THAT Tribulation, Just as Christ CLEARLY SAYS in Mark 13 :24.

shorttribber wrote:
You Catch that Mr. B.? ....... The Rapture Gathering THEN The Wrath, The TIME of God's WRATH

Shorty - what I "caught" was metaphorical language that appears to be describing a time in which the battle of Armageddon is ensuing - and this same period of time is further being described as occurring during the 3.5 years. I'm not sure if this actually the Rapture of the Church Occurring at this time, as the sickle mentioned could also mean Judgment as in verse 19 states: "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

I think you're straining Real hard not to see the PERFECT PICTURE of the Rapture and the Wrath that follows AFTER THAT.

Don't really know what i can do for you on that....Every Person or commentary i've ever read describes this portion of the vision as the gathering of the Good Grape Harvest TO Christ, IN THE CLOUDS, and the Wrath upon the Ungodly then Follows. Really don't know how much clearer that can get!

Revelation 19 is very clearly mentioning the Return of Christ. Matthew 24 describes Christ Returning Immediately After the Tribulation and Gathering us unto Him.

Ok, how would you say Mark's account of the timming Compares to your statement? Do you think the Gospel of Mark is in conflict with Mathew's Account? Of course it isn't, it must be you Mr. B. that is stressing and holding the Wrong Idea of the Word "Immediately" used in Mathew.

Here is the meaning....
Strong's #2112: eutheos (pronounced yoo-theh'-oce)
adverb from 2117; directly, i.e. at once or soon:--anon, as soon as, forthwith, immediately, shortly, straightway.

Now, Mark's account is describing the events as Shortly or Soon, rather than YOUR Personal Feeling that "Immediately" as Mathew used the word must Mean Instantly, Apparently without even the Slightest Time Allowed!

So, WHO would i feel is correct Mr. B., YOU, or Mark? I will choose Mark.

It must be you then Mr. B. that is in conflict with what the scriptures plainly say.

According to what you have posted, it appears His Judgments are made in conjunction with His Wrath which was poured out.

Not so, the "Judgements" are mentioned BEFORE the Wedding of the Bride, AND the WRATH of God PLAINLY and CLEARLY FOLLOW AFTER THAT.
You should re-read it for clarity on that.

His Wrath is a result His Judgment - and NOT the other way around.

I hope you'll find it not too tedious to Explain yourself on that one, because i'm not following your reasoning

His Return happens on the LAST DAY. This Judgment/Wrath could very well be occurring
simultaneously.

The point i've made is that the WRATH is clearly POURED OUT AFTER the Rapture! THAT is what is PLAIN and CLEAR from the text. In other words, THERE IS TIME REMAINING CLEARLY FROM SCRIPTURE...AFTER THE RAPTURE.

By the way... you STILL HAVE NOT proven your 30 day "ShortTrib" theory.

I haven't attempted to yet...that will come. I don't have a "30 day shorttrib theory" though.

shorttrib describes a great trib of 3.5 years that the Saints will experience on earth..and AFTER THAT, Christ SOON COMES, and His WRATH will be POURED OUT During Most of a 30 day Period, mentioned in Daniel 12:11.

Blessings to ya

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Shorty -

How is that? What is contrary to Mathew 24 in what i posted of Rev. 14 ? That IS what happens in the Rapture, the Body of Christ IS removed from the Earth, and Rev 14 Proves the Wrath of God that Clearly follows

Because that is YOUR interpretation of Revelation 14, and Matthew 24 describes us being gathered unto Him at His Coming I have further mentioned:

Shorty - what I "caught" was metaphorical language that appears to be describing a time in which the battle of Armageddon is ensuing - and this same period of time is further being described as occurring during the 3.5 years. I'm not sure if this actually the Rapture of the Church Occurring at this time, as the sickle mentioned could also mean Judgment as in verse 19 states: "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

Mr Baldy wrote:
Revelation 19 is very clearly mentioning the Return of Christ. Matthew 24 describes Christ Returning Immediately After the Tribulation and Gathering us unto Him.

So, WHO would i feel is correct Mr. B., YOU, or Mark? I will choose Mark.

It must be you then Mr. B. that is in conflict with what the scriptures plainly say.

What is interesting in your comments is - you see that I have referenced Matthew 24; yet you don't mention that, but refer it as my own interpretation. Not good Shorty. Why is it that you are being dogmatic about Mark 13? So I ask you, why is Mark the only disciple describing what you "believe" are "in those days" after the Tribulation? You see, and I know that you well know Scripture must work in harmony with other passages of Scripture. Because not only does Matthew describe our gathering unto at His Return - But the Apostle Paul does too in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8.

Perhaps your interpretation of Mark 13 is in error. What if he meant by saying "in those days" to apply to the time prior to the Tribulation period - as he is the "Only" writer who has mentioned it in this manner? But giving you the benefit of doubt, and let's say that you are right.... It still doesn't prove that God's Wrath happens any other time than during the Great Tribulation. Your mentioning Revelation 14 further proves that God's Wrath is being poured out during the Tribulation period as well - and Revelation 19 is very clearly showing His Return.

[Mark F]

ST,
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. It is difficult to understand why someone believes what they believe without some background, and you have made it somewhat clearer to me. We happen to disagree, but what is that among friends?

Eidt to add:
History shows that the people who destroyed the Temple were conscripts of the Roman Legions, why is it you mention that the Jewish leaders believed them to be the zealots, wouldn't history impact your belief? Why base a belief of something that has been shown to not be the case? Just wondering.

[shorttribber]

ST,
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. It is difficult to understand why someone believes what they believe without some background, and you have made it somewhat clearer to me. We happen to disagree, but what is that among friends?

Eidt to add:
History shows that the people who destroyed the Temple were conscripts of the Roman Legions, why is it you mention that the Jewish leaders believed them to be the zealots, wouldn't history impact your belief? Why base a belief of something that has been shown to not be the case? Just wondering.

Hi Mark,
I'm not saying the Romans didn't destroy Jerusam. I know that, more tonight, at work now

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Shorty -

I just want to touch on one more section of what you have written as far as what we have been discussing:

shorttrib describes a great trib of 3.5 years that the Saints will experience on earth..and AFTER THAT, Christ SOON COMES, and His WRATH will be POURED OUT During Most of a 30 day Period, mentioned in Daniel 12:11.

My apologies - but my soul was not satisfied with what you mentioned above, it actually would not let me rest. You have mentioned throughout the years that there will be a "shorttrib" period for the Saints - but you now mention that your shorttrib theory "describes a great trib of 3.5 years that the Saints will experience on earth." Well, respectfully, that is no shorttrib at all - as this is the amount of time that has been prophesized in Scripture.

Additionally, you are still equating God's Wrath being "POURED OUT" during "most of a 30 day period mentioned in Daniel 12:11. As you know I wholeheartedly believe this is in error - but now, I guess we will just have to respectfully disagree.

Earlier I mentioned how The Day Of The Lord will occur on the LAST DAY - which is also at His Coming; and our gathering unto Him (Rapture) and this happens after the Great Tribulation. I further believe that the World Ends as we presently know it.

The End of the World - which I believe is also The Day of The Lord, will be such a cataclysmic, cosmic, glorious event that we as believers have not even had a thought of just how Magnificent His Return will be. So, I wanted to provide a few passages of Scripture:

Isaiah 13:6-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment on the Day of the Lord

6)Wail, for the day of the Lord is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

7) Therefore all hands will fall limp,
And every man’s heart will melt.

8) They will be terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame.

9) Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

10) For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.

11) Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

12) I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir.

13) Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the Lord of hosts
In the day of His burning anger.

The aforementioned passages of Scripture appear to occur simultaneously at His Coming.

AND:

Zephaniah 1:15-18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15)
A day of wrath is that day,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of destruction and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,

16) A day of trumpet and battle cry
Against the fortified cities
And the high corner towers.

17) I will bring distress on men
So that they will walk like the blind,
Because they have sinned against the Lord;
And their blood will be poured out like dust
And their flesh like dung.

18) Neither their silver nor their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the Lord’s wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Here is what Peter had to say:

2 Peter 3:7-13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11) Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

The aforementioned passages Scripture clearly show that it ALL ENDS at His Coming. No so-called 30 Wrath period; No second chances; No Millennial Kingdom - His Kingdom comes with HIM!

[shorttribber]

Hi Mr. B.,
The bottom line with your whole post is your insistence on believing that the Day of the Lord is One 24 Hour Day.

It's ok if you choose to believe that, but i think the scriptures do not reveal that.

We've also had threads dedicated to discussions on that "Last Day" idea you hold, that's a discussion i can't have right now since i do need to work on my Tabernacles thread at some point. If i will just say at this point in this thread we must just agree to disagree on some of these matters, that's ok with me for now.

I need to answer one quick point for Mark F and begin my work on the thread i mentioned.

Blessing, love, and respect as always brother.... ....gotta go for now.

[shorttribber]

ST,
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. It is difficult to understand why someone believes what they believe without some background, and you have made it somewhat clearer to me. We happen to disagree, but what is that among friends?

Eidt to add:
History shows that the people who destroyed the Temple were conscripts of the Roman Legions, why is it you mention that the Jewish leaders believed them to be the zealots, wouldn't history impact your belief? Why base a belief of something that has been shown to not be the case? Just wondering.

Hi Mark,
I'm not saying the Romans didn't destroy Jerusalem. I know that, more tonight, at work now

Ok Mark,
I still haven't much time tonight to post...having a new front glass put in my wife's car and i'm shuttling her to and from work and it's some distance...not much sleep time for my work early in the morning.

Just to mention that i know the Romans physically destroyed Jerusalem, as you have stated, all of history is clear on that.

Josephus had a statement that i would love to find right now that i remember David posting one time regarding his saying that the Jews themselves destroyed Jerusalem through corruption, again, as i said in my post the word used in Hebrew "Destroy" means also "Corrupt"....and That the Jews themselves did.

As to my reference to the Zealots, i never said that THEY destroyed Jerusalem, i said the Scribes and Pharisees Believed that Daniel 9:26 was referencing THEM, In the Time of Christ.
Those that were Alive AT the Time of Christ's ministry believed that, not Later ones, Later ones all understood that the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.

It's a matter of understanding that the text cuts both ways by the wording, meaning Destroy AND Corrupt.

The Jews did Corrupt, and the Romans did Destroy.......Same Hebrew word.

The Wording intended by God to Seal up the Vision.


Blessings to ya

[Mark F]

ST,
Thank you for the clarification.

[WOODHENOT3]

Mr. Baldy,
I wouldn't be surprised if we do end up being on earth during God's wrath. There's scriptures in Rev 14 and 19 that does seem like we are not here when the wrath is poured out. But I do think about the wrath of the Flood and Noah and family was still on earth, the passover or the when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah... many Elects was here during God's Wrath...
also, I question, when the angels gather us from 4 corners of the earth, it seem to happen after readings...when I read the tares and the wheat parable, the tares are taking out first, not the wheat....then the wheat is gathered...so, it makes me wonder...

Many blessings to all,

[Loop]

Mr. Baldy,
I wouldn't be surprised if we do end up being on earth during God's wrath. There's scriptures in Rev 14 and 19 that does seem like we are not here when the wrath is poured out. But I do think about the wrath of the Flood and Noah and family was still on earth, the passover or the when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah... many Elects was here during God's Wrath...
also, I question, when the angels gather us from 4 corners of the earth, it seem to happen after readings...when I read the tares and the wheat parable, the tares are taking out first, not the wheat....then the wheat is gathered...so, it makes me wonder...

Many blessings to all,

This, I've wondered about too...

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. Baldy,
I wouldn't be surprised if we do end up being on earth during God's wrath. There's scriptures in Rev 14 and 19 that does seem like we are not here when the wrath is poured out. But I do think about the wrath of the Flood and Noah and family was still on earth, the passover or the when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah... many Elects was here during God's Wrath...
also, I question, when the angels gather us from 4 corners of the earth, it seem to happen after readings...when I read the tares and the wheat parable, the tares are taking out first, not the wheat....then the wheat is gathered...so, it makes me wonder...

Many blessings to all,

Hi Woody -

First I'd like say that Revelation 14 has never convinced me that we are taken off the Earth prior to God's Wrath being poured out. Still not understanding why some want to relate that to some form of Pre-Wrath Rapture. You did a great job in researching the Scriptures to find out how various parallels depict actions of God - especially as it relates to His Wrath.

Please think about this...….

The Great Tribulation is described as a horrible time on Earth where there will be a lot of great suffering; death; disease; famine, pestilences; and just out right chaos. Satan is wreaking havoc on the Earth - and God allows it to happen as His Return draws near. The Saints are persecuted by the coming Antichrist during this time period as well. When this time period is over Jesus Returns...… and Scripture describes how the Antichrist is destroyed by the "Brightness of His Coming" - now to my point:

Jesus Returns on the LAST DAY. Previously I provided Scripture that indicates this is also a time of:

1) Resurrection- Rapture (Please Read John 5:28-29)
2) Judgment - Earth destroyed by Fire
3) Eternity

His Return is synonymous with the "Day of the Lord." You have provided the parable of the "Tares & Wheat" which also occurs at this time. The LAST DAY - End of the World - Day of the Lord. Some will argue that this is not a literal 24 hour period, so I say - What difference does it make? Believers will have Glorified Bodies and Eternal Life Immediately at His Return.

There are some things that I have come very convinced of:

First - there is absolutely NO Pretribulation Rapture - and there are multiple passages of Scripture to prove that.

Second - Because we are "gathered up to Christ at His Return" there is a reason for that - and it's because Judgment ensues; and the World is Destroyed by Fire.

Third- I am absolutely convinced that when Jesus Returns - His Kingdom Comes.

So in closing...…

The LAST DAY means the Last Day. There is absolutely no reason for a Millennial Kingdom; No Second Chances; No Righteous Believers living with those in mortal bodies throughout this so-call Millennial Kingdom - to those who so-call happed to become believers during the Great Tribulation; No reason for Satan to be bound for 1,000 years (metaphorical language; symbolism -used in the Book of Revelation) then be let loose - and finally, absolutely no reason for Eternity not to occur at His Coming. When Jesus Comes - It will be Eternity.

We have a Final 3.5 year period of time that has yet to be fulfilled. I think we have entered the threshold of that time period as we live today.

[WOODHENOT3]

Hi Mr. Baldy,
I find it very interesting.... I have a question....

We have a Final 3.5 year period of time that has yet to be fulfilled. I think we have entered the threshold of that time period as we live today.

If it's the final 3.5 years, Where's the AC who supposed to reign and persecute the Saints for 3.5 years if we are living in that time period? Are you saying there's a 3.5 year period and another 3.5 year period(Great Tribulation.) ?

I'm trying to picture what you're thinking... :)

It seems like the Black Horse is riding today...

Blessings bro!

[Mr Baldy]

If it's the final 3.5 years, Where's the AC who supposed to reign and persecute the Saints for 3.5 years if we are living in that time period? Are you saying there's a 3.5 year period and another 3.5 year period(Great Tribulation.) ?

Hi Woody -

I didn't say that "it's the final 3.5 years." I said: I think we have entered the threshold of that time period as we live today.

Here is a passage of Scripture I think you may find interesting to understand my point:

Matthew 24:3-6 - King James Version (KJV)

3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumors' of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

I have mentioned that we are at the "threshold" because of what we have experienced the past decade or so. There is no specific time period mentioned of these events happening prior to the AOD - which as you know catapults us into the final 3.5 years.

God has allowed Covid-19 to occur. Many may say well.... it's just another pandemic, and we've had pandemics before, and have overcome them. Well, that may be true - but last time I checked we were not a Global Society as we are today - and we were not as technically advanced. I'm not sure if things will ever get back to "business as usual." I do however, see what I feel is a "rush" to return to the way things were, and this may be a mistake. People will not obey rules of Social Distancing; they want what they want - when they want it; being totally oblivious to what's really going on - and it appears that a certain level of fear is present on the part of World Government.

[WOODHENOT3]

Hi Mr Baldy,
Thanks!
I agree about the Covid-19... there are so many disobedient, oblivious people who are so caught up with the things of the world. Many leaders are dependent on the flocks for income and many flocks are dependent on them for advice because they dont read their bible.. I keep telling my friends to read the Bible and stop relying on their pastors or leaders, its a good time to read, pray and understand God... they just can't...As far as the president, I think he's worried about his own money than the people... I don't see things going back to normal... it's almost like 911, after 911, the world changed...

I think the world economy is going to crash, many people will be angry about losing their retirements, etc... now that the Stay-at-home order is extended to May 15... I just don't see "going back to Normal" happening any sooner...I could be wrong, but it looks pretty gloomy with all this going on...when was the last time the whole world was ordered to stay home? There's something about the word, "waiting"... we are waiting for..."the revealing" to resolve the issue?

Well, be safe, persevere in the Lord!!
God bless!!

[WOODHENOT3]

5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

To me, this verse sounds like the many pastors of today...you think?

[Mr Baldy]

I agree about the Covid-19... there are so many disobedient, oblivious people who are so caught up with the things of the world.

Good point - and here is something else to consider..... think about the divide that is being perpetrated by the Media with the American audience. Lies, lies, and more lies. People are not use to having their lives disrupted - and when a man's way of life is threatened - then they're ready to go to War.

I don't see things going back to normal

I agree - how can it when they don't even know how many ways this virus is spread?

I keep telling my friends to read the Bible and stop relying on their pastors or leaders, its a good time to read, pray and understand God... they just can't

Again, I agree. People better pay attention to what's really going on. Stop relying on their source of information to come from others or the Main Stream Media....way too much deception and LIES.

As far as the president, I think he's worried about his own money than the people

All I will say about this is just PAY ATTENTION. Take heed to the words he's saying, and his actions. It really speaks volumes. At least for me it does. Just hope that no one ever becomes deceived.

I think the world economy is going to crash, many people will be angry about losing their retirements, etc

Scripture warned us that a time like what you have mentioned will come.

[Mr Baldy]

5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

To me, this verse sounds like the many pastors of today...you think?

It's part of the "Apostasy" or "Falling Away." People will not give heed to sound Doctrine - instead, they will have itching ears listening to those who tell them exactly what they want to hear, and make them feel good emotionally - therefore, being totally deceived.

1 Timothy 4:1 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Apostasy

4) But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

2 Timothy 4:3 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires

[WOODHENOT3]

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
As far as the president, I think he's worried about his own money than the people

All I will say about this is just PAY ATTENTION. Take heed to the words he's saying, and his actions. It really speaks volumes. At least for me it does. Just hope that no one ever becomes deceived.

I don't trust any leaders, I put my trust in God... Do you think the president's planting the seeds to the One world order Mr. Baldy?

[Mr Baldy]

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
As far as the president, I think he's worried about his own money than the people

All I will say about this is just PAY ATTENTION. Take heed to the words he's saying, and his actions. It really speaks volumes. At least for me it does. Just hope that no one ever becomes deceived.

I don't trust any leaders, I put my trust in God... Do you think the president's planting the seeds to the One world order Mr. Baldy?

Hi Woody =

In adherence to Board Rules - I will not be disrespectful or make any rash judgments concerning the President of the United States. I will say; however, just pay very close attention to his actions; the words he says - and see if what he does or says is for the people of the United States - and make your own judgment.

My trust is in God - not ANY man, and certainly not any earthly government. I am willing to give my life for what I believe. My belief is in Jesus Christ.