Have We Entered the Tribulation?

[Mr Baldy]

Good Day to you All -

The Covid-19 pandemic has caused a lot of concern for many. I believe that most all Nations on Earth have been affected. Because we are a Global Society - I question whether or not we have entered the Tribulation time prior to the revealing of the coming Antichrist at the AOD?

[ToledoDebbie]

Mr. Baldy, we have talked on other threads and I am pondering that question every day. Something very big is happening and it will have prophetic implications. We all need to watch, pray and stay very close to our Lord, because he is definitely doing something!!

[shorttribber]

Not yet

[Sonbeam]

I don't think so either.

The way I see it, the next global event will be WWII. The antichrist could be revealed to the Saints just before, or perhaps afterwards as he presents himself as the savior of the world.

THE TRUMPETS

Rev 8: 6-7

6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

I hope and pray I'm totally wrong, or that this won't happen for another hundred years.


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

I don't think so either.

The way I see it, the next global event will be WWII. The antichrist could be revealed to the Saints just before, or perhaps afterwards as he presents himself as the savior of the world.

THE TRUMPETS

Rev 8: 6-7

6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

I hope and pray I'm totally wrong, or that this won't happen for another hundred years.


sonbeam

Wow , you are an historicist ......still waiting for World War 2

Sorry, just couldn't help myself .....we know what you meant...

Blessings

[extravagantchristian]

The corona virus is called that because it's covered in crowns... The first seal is the rider on the white horse with a crown...

I think this virus could be God's response to our attempt to divide Jerusalem, the deal might be coming from America but other nations would be signing on...

The economy was weak to begin with, I think we could see a new global economy starting up because of this...

https://www.bitcoinmarketjournal.com/on ... one-money/

I think we could definitely be entering the tribulation soon.

[Sonbeam]

I don't think so either.

The way I see it, the next global event will be WWII. The antichrist could be revealed to the Saints just before, or perhaps afterwards as he presents himself as the savior of the world.

THE TRUMPETS

Rev 8: 6-7

6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.

7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

I hope and pray I'm totally wrong, or that this won't happen for another hundred years.


sonbeam

Wow , you are an historicist ......still waiting for World War 2

Sorry, just couldn't help myself .....we know what you meant...

Blessings

I did say I hoped I was totally wrong. Didn't know that was going to be proven true so fast.

[Jericho]

There are two defining start points of the tribulation and great-tribulation, the signing of the seven years false peace treaty and the abomination of desolation. Neither of those have occurred yet. At best this "could be" described as birth pangs.

[Loop]

I did say I hoped I was totally wrong. Didn't know that was going to be proven true so fast.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. Baldy, we have talked on other threads and I am pondering that question every day. Something very big is happening and it will have prophetic implications. We all need to watch, pray and stay very close to our Lord, because he is definitely doing something!!

[Mr Baldy]

Not yet

I don't think so either.

The way I see it, the next global event will be WWIII. The antichrist could be revealed to the Saints just before, or perhaps afterwards as he presents himself as the savior of the world.

Thanks for the responses thus far -

Sometimes when questions like this are presented it amazes me on the various types of responses that are given. I can only assume that most of it derives from what we have been taught.

I certainly don't know the answer to the question of this Thread - but one thing is for sure.....no one knows the day or the hour of the Return of Christ.

Jesus gave a few parables relating to the time of His Return. An example of one is the Parable of the 10 Virgins. He also described the time of His Coming as being like the Days of Noah. People were going about their daily lives - conducting "business as usual."

Based on the Parable of the 10 Virgins , and the days being like the time Noah & his family entered the Ark - no one had a clue about what was about to happen. I would venture to say that when will have entered the Tribulation, no one will have a clue as well. Nor do I think that most will recognize the AOD.

Dear Body of Christ - please heed what's going on...…..

[Mr Baldy]

There are two defining start points of the tribulation and great-tribulation, the signing of the seven years false peace treaty and the abomination of desolation. Neither of those have occurred yet. At best this "could be" described as birth pangs.

Hi Jericho -

Very interesting response. I'm not for sure if you are a PreTrib believer or not - but during my studies of the PreTrib Rapture Theory, I was taught that there would be a 7 year Tribulation period. I had been taught that the first 3.5 year period was identified as the "Tribulation" - and the second 3.5 year period was identified as "Great Tribulation." I was further taught that the coming Antichrist would sign a so-called "7 year Peace Treaty" - then break it in the middle; otherwise at the AOD - or at the 3.5 year mark then "Great Tribulation" would start. Daniel 9:27 was used to support this theory.

Well the problem with the aforementioned is that is cannot be supported with Scripture. You mention the "signing of this so-called treaty" and the "AOD" - being the "defining start points." With the exception of the AOD, I'm not so sure a "start point" can be identified.

In closing - we may have indeed entered the Tribulation period - which I personally identify as "birth pangs." Scripture never specifically names a period called "Tribulation." However, Jesus Himself does mention "Great Tribulation" - further describing it as a time of distress that will get so great on planet Earth, that if He did not cut the days short, no flesh would be saved.

So, I don't think that there will be "Flashing Neon Signs" indicating that we have entered the Tribulation. I am also not so sure that many will recognize the AOD - perhaps the Jews who are in the area of the "Holy Place" at the time.

Just please take a look at what's going on with the panic. Pay attention to people. See if they are heeding instructions given about "social distancing;" "staying at home;" or "hording food." I went to the store today - and I couldn't even find a carton of eggs.

[WOODHENOT3]

It seems to me the stage is being set for the coming Anti-Christ, I'm picturing the AoD is going to happen with a sudden impact...so, the Great Tribulation has not started yet, but it could happen very soon, once we see the AC reveals, there is only 3 1/2 years to go, then we don't know the Day and Hour, I would assume 3 days..my humble guess... :)
The world is basically a sitting duck right now, scared, fearful, and awaiting for a miracle... will the AC perform a miracle to stop the virus? He's going to claim he's God..... we shall see.... my 2 cents.....

Exciting times! God bless!!

[Mr Baldy]

I'm picturing the AoD is going to happen with a sudden impact...so, the Great Tribulation has not started yet

Hi Woody -

I want to be clear about what I mean concerning the topic of this Thread. I am not referring to the "Great Tribulation" which of course as we know happens once the coming Antichrist is revealed - but the events described as "birth pangs" and happen before the AOD and "Great Tribulation."

To illustrate my point - I want to refer those who those who reading this to look at what Jesus had to say regarding this matter:

Matthew 24:8-15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

9) “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10) At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11) Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12) Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13) But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14) This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Perilous Times

15) “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

If you'll notice in the aforementioned verses of Scripture, Jesus lays the foundation of the events described BEFORE the AOD in verse 15. He further states "They will deliver you to tribulation" - this is why I have asked if we have entered the Tribulation? The "The Great Tribulation" is mentioned further down in verse 21:

Matthew 24:21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

For then there will be a Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

So, there is a distinction between "Tribulation" and "Great Tribulation."

Most of our PreTrib Rapture believers believe that these two time periods are identified by two 3.5 year periods running consecutively for a total of 7 years. Further stating that the "1st half, or the first 3.5 year period is the 'Tribulation' and the second 3.5 year period is the 'Great Tribulation." Well - I wholeheartedly disagree with that, because Scripture never provides a given amount of time the period prior to the AOD identified as "Birth Pangs" or time of "Tribulation" lasts.

We do know in contrast coming Antichrist will be granted power to persecute the Body of Christ for 3.5 years - and this can be supported by Scripture. This time period can also be identified by Scripture as the "Great Tribulation."

[WOODHENOT3]

Hi Mr Baldy,
It sounds to me that the tribulation is the Great Tribulation....verse 15 started off with... THEREFORE when you see the AoD.... It didn't say, THEN when you see the AoD...It seem to me, THEREFORE is relating to the tribulation....

Just trying to figure this out...

[shorttribber]

Hi Mr Baldy,
It sounds to me that the tribulation is the Great Tribulation....verse 15 started off with... THEREFORE when you see the AoD.... It didn't say, THEN when you see the AoD...It seem to me, THEREFORE is relating to the tribulation....

Just trying to figure this out...

Very important point Woody, I pointed the same thing out to Mr B already.

[Mr Baldy]

https://www.bitcoinmarketjournal.com/on ... one-money/

I think we could definitely be entering the tribulation soon.

Thanks for the article EC - very informative!

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Mr Baldy,
It sounds to me that the tribulation is the Great Tribulation....verse 15 started off with... THEREFORE when you see the AoD.... It didn't say, THEN when you see the AoD...It seem to me, THEREFORE is relating to the tribulation....

Just trying to figure this out...

Hi Woody -

I guess we have a difference in interpretation

You are correct - Jesus does say THEREFORE when you see the AOD; (Verse 15) however, what you appear to be missing are the "birth pangs" He describes PRIOR to seeing the AOD. I believe the "birth pangs" are Tribulation - and a time period prior to the time in which Great Tribulation occurs. There is a very clear distinction.

Verse 21 is when the "Great Tribulation" is mentioned - and it doesn't occur until AFTER the AOD.

Matthew 24:21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

For then there will be a Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

[Mr Baldy]

Very important point Woody, I pointed the same thing out to Mr B already.

And we still disagree

[shorttribber]

Very important point Woody, I pointed the same thing out to Mr B already.

And we still disagree

When you see "Therefore" or Wherefore" in the text, you must Learn Why those words are there.

Therefore learn what they are There for.

See how my Second sentence refers back to the first?

[Spreading Salt]

In this world we will have trouble.

Still birth pains IMO

Doesn't prevent the Harpazo timing though so COME ON LORD!!! CALL US UP

[Mr Baldy]

See how my Second sentence reffers back to the first?

Hi Shorty

I understand completely what you are trying to convey - again, I just happen to disagree.

I'll take one last jab at this to explain things in a more simpler way - as we may be speaking in a manner which is mere semantics vs interpretation.

I see the "birth pangs" as a period of time prior to the AOD as a time of "Tribulation."

When the AOD commences, the period after this time is "Great Tribulation."

Birth Pangs = "Tribulation" period

Time after AOD = "Great Tribulation " period

There are very clear distinctions in these two time periods as I see it in Scripture - as the terms "Therefore" & "Then" are used.

Therefore - adverb; meaning for that reason (birth pangs - Tribulation)

Then - adverb; meaning after - (AOD - Great Tribulation)

In order to alleviate the confusion, perhaps I should have titled this Thread:

"Have we entered the Birth Pangs"

[Sonbeam]

There are two defining start points of the tribulation and great-tribulation, the signing of the seven years false peace treaty and the abomination of desolation. Neither of those have occurred yet. At best this "could be" described as birth pangs.

I tend to see a 7 yr period also Jericho. Will explain why maybe on another thread.

sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Not yet

I don't think so either.

The way I see it, the next global event will be WWIII. The antichrist could be revealed to the Saints just before, or perhaps afterwards as he presents himself as the savior of the world.

Thanks for the responses thus far -

I certainly don't know the answer to the question of this Thread - but one thing is for sure.....no one knows the day or the hour of the Return of Christ.

Actually Mr Baldy, that might be true right now. Or maybe not. Who knows, maybe the Holy Spirit has revealed that to some of His saints already.

One thing is sure though, the saints will know at some time when the Day of the Lord will occur.

1 Thessalonians 5 (NIV)

The Day of the Lord

5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness

sonbeam

[Mr Baldy]

Actually Mr Baldy, that might be true right now. Or maybe not. Who knows, maybe the Holy Spirit has revealed that to some of His saints already.

Hi Sonbeam -

If I may...…..

What has become quite clear to me is there remains a final 3.5 year period of time in our history that has to be fulfilled by the coming Antichrist - and it becomes before the Day of the Lord.

One thing is sure though, the saints will know at some time when the Day of the Lord will occur.

I believe that the Day of the Lord and the timing of the Rapture of the Church happen simultaneously. Here are a few verses concerning the Day of the Lord:

2 Peter 3:10 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

A New Heaven and Earth

10) But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Acts 2:20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 ‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood, before the great and glorious Day of the Lord shall come.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

For you yourselves know full well that the Day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the Day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5) Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

Based on the aforementioned verses of Scripture - I'm not so sure that the believers will know when the
"Day of the Lord" occurs - it comes as a thief in the night - but I believe we should not be surprised; as we will recognize the signs of the time, and the fact that Antichrist will have been revealed.

[extravagantchristian]

Have we entered the tribulation? I think Jesus gave us a big clue about what will happen first, He said:. There will be earthquakes, pestelence, famine, BUT BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS..... THEY WILL LAY THEIR HANDS ON YOU AND PERSECUTE YOU. Luke 21:12

So according to Jesus, the end will begin with Christian/Jewish persecution.

Luke 21
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ [d]Therefore do not [e]go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will [f]answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or [g]resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. 38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

[shorttribber]

In order to alleviate the confusion, perhaps I should have titled this Thread:

"Have we entered the Birth Pangs"

And you would have been speaking Some Truth (although the "birth pangs" have been ongoing for quite some time).

1. BECAUSE there is zero, NO REASON to call what Jesus Plainly Says is "Birth Pangs" THE "Tribulation Period".

and

2. BECAUSE "Tribulation Period" is NEVER, Not Once Ever said by Christ or recorded in Any Other Place in the entire Bible.

So, Mr. B., it is YOU that is Breaking your own Very Important Rule, by READING INTO the text something that Does Not Exist.

[shorttribber]

Have we entered the tribulation? I think Jesus gave us a big clue about what will happen first, He said:. There will be earthquakes, pestelence, famine, BUT BEFORE ALL THESE THINGS..... THEY WILL LAY THEIR HANDS ON YOU AND PERSECUTE YOU. Luke 21:12

So according to Jesus, the end will begin with Christian/Jewish persecution.

Luke 21
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ [d]Therefore do not [e]go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will [f]answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or [g]resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. 38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

Bravo EC

Last night i eliminated a thread i began a couple of days ago called "Those Days" because so many threads were popping up and i could address what i hoped to do in different threads.

The primary things i had recently learned were from reading the text in Luke you have just posted

Now we can all pull up a chair and really dig into a Spiritual T-Bone!

Look at the Order of Events PLAINLY RECORDED in Luke

I'm not going to say anything more yet...i would just have all the READERS UNDERSTAND for themselves by Reading the following verses In the ORDER they have Been written, and the Exact Words Christ specifically uses.

LUKE 21

12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.
13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will [f]answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or [g]resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

[shorttribber]

Mr B.

You have been trying to get us all to notice the Order of Written Events.

Please keep your request in mind for Lukes account also.

[Mr Baldy]

In order to alleviate the confusion, perhaps I should have titled this Thread:

"Have we entered the Birth Pangs"

And you would have been speaking Some Truth (although the "birth pangs" have been ongoing for quite some time).

1. BECAUSE there is zero, NO REASON to call what Jesus Plainly Says is "Birth Pangs" THE "Tribulation Period".

and

2. BECAUSE "Tribulation Period" is NEVER, Not Once Ever said by Christ or recorded in Any Other Place in the entire Bible.

So, Mr. B., it is YOU that is Breaking your own Very Important Rule, by READING INTO the text something that Does Not Exist.

Shorty - when I used the verses in Matthew 24 - apparently you may have not seen what I posted that Jesus very clearly stated before He referenced the AOD...…..so let me post it for you again:

Matthew 24:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9) “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

If you'll notice in the aforementioned passage of Scripture Shorty - Jesus used the term "Tribulation" to describe the period of time occurring before the AOD - not me.

So it would be nice to get your facts straight.

[Mr Baldy]

The Destruction of Jerusalem20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Mr B.

You have been trying to get us all to notice the Order of Written Events.

Please keep your request in mind for Lukes account also.

Shorty - speaking of the events documented by Luke...…and by the way thank you for doing so -

Have you considered that the aforementioned events that you have mentioned documented by Luke were already fulfilled by Titus?

[shorttribber]

In order to alleviate the confusion, perhaps I should have titled this Thread:

"Have we entered the Birth Pangs"

And you would have been speaking Some Truth (although the "birth pangs" have been ongoing for quite some time).

1. BECAUSE there is zero, NO REASON to call what Jesus Plainly Says is "Birth Pangs" THE "Tribulation Period".

and

2. BECAUSE "Tribulation Period" is NEVER, Not Once Ever said by Christ or recorded in Any Other Place in the entire Bible.

So, Mr. B., it is YOU that is Breaking your own Very Important Rule, by READING INTO the text something that Does Not Exist.

Shorty - when I used the verses in Matthew 24 - apparently you may have not seen what I posted that Jesus very clearly stated before He referenced the AOD...…..so let me post it for you again:

Matthew 24:9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9) “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

If you'll notice in the aforementioned passage of Scripture Shorty - Jesus used the term "Tribulation" to describe the period of time occurring before the AOD - not me.

So it would be nice to get your facts straight.

My facts are straight, we know that in this would we will have "tribulation". He does not say "tribulation Period"

Birth Pangs become more and more intense as The Time before the birth nears.

Still, there is no such thing as ' The Tribulation Period"

My Facts are straight.

[Mr Baldy]

My facts are straight, we know that in this would we will have "tribulation". He does not say "tribulation Period"

You are correct He does not say "tribulation period" - and what I said is because He used the term "Tribulation" to describe a time before the AOD - it would be an era of Time or Period.

Still, there is no such thing as ' The Tribulation Period"

We will just have to disagree. If Jesus says "they will hand you over to Tribulation" - and it is a specific time, then it is what it is.

[shorttribber]

My facts are straight, we know that in this would we will have "tribulation". He does not say "tribulation Period"

You are correct He does not say "tribulation period" - and what I said is because He used the term "Tribulation" to describe a time before the AOD - it would be an era of Time or Period.

Still, there is no such thing as ' The Tribulation Period"

We will just have to disagree. If Jesus says "they will hand you over to Tribulation" - and it is a specific time, then it is what it is.

I have said the following....
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then (Not "then" as in, During the time previously mentioned..But.."Then" as in "THEN, After what i have just said" ) {my ST commentary added} shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
...............................................................................................................................
"When ye therefore" is used to describe what he had Just Previously Mentioned Mr B..

In other words...when ye THEREFORE SEE the AOD...You MUST FLEE BECAUSE What i have Just described or What i have just said WILL HAPPEN Very Suddenly..and Many Will Fall Away, AND THEN The End Will Come!

The text is in That Kind of Order Mr. B., The PROOF of That is in vs 14! NOTICE, he says, "and Then the End Shall Come". He places That sentence BEFORE He mentions the AOD!

He puts certain events together and then mentions The REASON for the events, and the Reason For Verses 9 thru 14 ARE the AOD itself.
..............................................................................................................................


Your reference for When Christ DID use the word "Tribulation" IS PART of the Great Tribulation.....NOT The Birth Pangs.

YOU are understanding the Events themselves in the wrong ORDER Mr B.

Please, Read Lukes's account also, THEN you may understand.

[Mr Baldy]

YOU are understanding the Events themselves in the wrong ORDER Mr B.

Time to move past this Shorty - we just completely disagree.

[shorttribber]

YOU are understanding the Events themselves in the wrong ORDER Mr B.

Time to move past this Shorty - we just completely disagree.

Others may not feel the same way, but I implore you to read the post before your last maybe much more carefully than it seems you have this far.

[Mr Baldy]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/food-s ... -1.5520492

[Loop]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/food-s ... -1.5520492

Yet while there isn't a shortage of milk, grocer's are limiting the buyers to a certain amount and forcing Ohio dairy farmers to dump milk...

CRAWFORD COUNTY, OH (WJW) — The Ohio Farm Bureau Federation is asking customers to alert the agency if your local grocer has placed a purchasing limit on milk.
According to the farm bureau, there is not a shortage on milk.
In fact, dairy farmers across the Midwest, including here in Ohio, are having to dump their milk because the milk supply is getting too large for the processing plants to handle.
Officials say this in part because the milk that was being made for cheese and yogurt products in schools is having to be moved elsewhere due to closures. Now, that milk is being used to make more milk, instead of milk products.
Farms across Ohio, such as Hartschuh Dairy Farm in Crawford County, are reporting delays in milk pick-ups.
Hartschuh also confirmed that every producer who sends milk to their plant is dumping one pick up down the drain. Hartschuh is doing this as well.
“The milk plant is full. It cannot hold another drop,” the farm shared on social media. “[Thursday] delivery trucks, who take the bottled milk to the grocery stores, returned back to the plant with full jugs. Stores didn’t have any more room on their shelves to accept delivery. This created a backlog at the milk plant, who had no choice but to leave perfectly good milk at the dairy farms.”
Hartschuh cites the coronavirus outbreak as a major contributor to the fast changes in Ohio’s dairy industry
“When you add in a world-changing event like COVID-19, all bets are off the table. Since the beginning of March, milk prices have plummeted. Exports are down, and domestic markets are unstable,” the farm explained. “As if that’s not enough, when you add grocery store limits and closed restaurants to the mix, an already complex system becomes even more complicated.”
The Ohio Farm Bureau and American Dairy Association Mideast are working with dairy companies and sales teams to ask Ohio’s grocery stores to lift their purchasing limits on milk and dairy foods.
The bureau asks anyone who sees a store limiting the purchase quantity on milk to take a photo of the limit sign, note the location, date and time, and email it to Erin.Brown@Drink-Milk.com.
For local and breaking news, weather alerts, video and more, download the FREE WOWK 13 News App from the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store.

[Sonbeam]

Mr. Baldy and ST,

OK. I am totally confused ( I bet others are too or maybe not ) as to what you Mr. Baldy,
and you shorttribber believe regarding the period before Christ’s second coming.

One thing is clear (I think). You both believe the Saints will go through some tribulation. Right?

I could ask you to plainly state your beliefs in 25 words or less, but I don’t think you can do it,
so please pick one of the following statements.

1. The saints will go through only 3 1/2 years of Great tribulation before Christ’s second coming.

2. The saints will go through 3 1/2 years of tribulation before the AOD and 3 1/2 years of
Great Tribulation before Christ’s second coming. ( This is less than 25 words. I checked).


I could add many more statements regarding the anti-Christ, birth pangs, the start of the tribulation
period (oh no, no. Forget this one.) etc., etc. But this would only muddy the waters even more.


If you want to rewrite 1. or 2. to make your position clearer for the rest of us, please do so, but keep
it simple. Thank you!



sonbeam

[shorttribber]

I could ask you to plainly state your beliefs in 25 words or less, but I don’t think you can do it,
so please pick one of the following statements.

You are correct...i can't do that

1. The saints will go through only 3 1/2 years of Great tribulation before Christ’s second coming.

That's correct

[Mr Baldy]

One thing is clear (I think). You both believe the Saints will go through some tribulation. Right?

Yes - I believe Scripture is quite clear about that.

I could ask you to plainly state your beliefs in 25 words or less, but I don’t think you can do it, so please pick one of the following statements.

One statement does not complete what I have read and studied based on the way you have asked.

1. The saints will go through only 3 1/2 years of Great tribulation before Christ’s second coming.

Sonbeam - the way I have interpreted Scripture there is only one future time period and it lasts for 3.5 years. It has been identified as "Great Tribulation."

2. The saints will go through 3 1/2 years of tribulation before the AOD and 3 1/2 years ofGreat Tribulation before Christ’s second coming. ( This is less than 25 words. I checked).

You will find nowhere in Scripture where there is a specific time period before the AOD that lasts 3.5 years. This is a very common mistake in the PreTrib Rapture Theory. There is a time period prior to the AOD identified as "Birth Pangs" I believe to be a period of time which there is "tribulation;" as Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:9; however, again Scripture never gives a 3.5 year time period, or identifies a specific time in which it lasts. This time period further identifies that the AOD is near.

My position is I believe that the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 have already been Fulfilled in the Ministry; Death & Resurrection of Jesus. I further believe that the prophecy mentioned in Daniel 9:27 may have been fulfilled by the Roman Empire Titus - and is a "Type & Shadow" of the event in which the coming Antichrist will perform. His time will only last 3.5 years. This is why Jesus referred to the prophet Daniel in Matthew 24:15.

So in closing - there ONLY remains a future 3.5 year period of time that can be identified with Scripture, It will occur at the AOD when the Antichrist is revealed; it be a time of Great Tribulation; and the Saints will be persecuted during this time. Then there is the 2nd Coming of Christ - a General Resurrection of the Dead; the saints will have met Him in the Air; Judgement commences - and this all occurs on the LAST DAY.

[Mark F]

Luke 21 is different from Mark 13 and Matthew 24, in Luke 21:11 ".....fearful sights, great signs from heaven,..." and in verse 12 He says: "But before all these things..." to verse 24: "...until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

The times of the Gentiles will end with the AOD and the start of the Great Trib. The verses from Luke 21:12 to 24 describe 70 AD. Jesus is describing the end events, V 10 nation against nation, earthquakes, pestilence, great signs, etc, then in verse 21:12 He makes the clear distinction: "But before all this," He then wraps that part up in the finish of that time with the time of the Gentiles when God will finish the work and judgment by dealing through Israel in the Great Trib and the last 3.5 years. That's where I expect the pre-trib rapture as the Church age runs parallel to the times of the Gentiles.

Matthew and Mark are are parallel accounts, Luke is much different.

[Sonbeam]

I could ask you to plainly state your beliefs in 25 words or less, but I don’t think you can do it,
so please pick one of the following statements.

You are correct...i can't do that

1. The saints will go through only 3 1/2 years of Great tribulation before Christ’s second coming.

That's correct

Thank you ST. Reading your posts, I was sure you'd pick number 2.


sonbeam

[Sonbeam]

Thank you Mr. Baldy,

So you picked number 1. too.

So in closing - there ONLY remains a future 3.5 year period of time that can be identified with Scripture, It will occur at the AOD when the Antichrist is revealed; it be a time of Great Tribulation; and the Saints will be persecuted during this time. Then there is the 2nd Coming of Christ - a General Resurrection of the Dead; the saints will have met Him in the Air; Judgement commences - and this all occurs on the LAST DAY.

So then, what is the point of disagreement between you and ST??


sonbeam

[Mr Baldy]

Thank you Mr. Baldy,

So you picked number 1. too.

So in closing - there ONLY remains a future 3.5 year period of time that can be identified with Scripture, It will occur at the AOD when the Antichrist is revealed; it be a time of Great Tribulation; and the Saints will be persecuted during this time. Then there is the 2nd Coming of Christ - a General Resurrection of the Dead; the saints will have met Him in the Air; Judgement commences - and this all occurs on the LAST DAY.

So then, what is the point of disagreement between you and ST??


sonbeam

Hi Sonbeam -

First I want to say, Shorty and I have had many debates over the years - sometimes we have agreed, and sometimes we have not. But nothing is ever taken personal - and we both respect each other as brothers in Christ. So I hope that no one who has ever read our theories on End Time Prophecy has understood what we don't agree about Scripture in a negative way. We both have stated, and have mentioned on previous debates - that what we mention here is for edification to the Body of Christ and not about personal ego's in any way, shape, form or fashion.

Now - to my knowledge Shorty believes that the 70th week has yet to be fulfilled. I believe that he further has a "PreWrath- Short Trib" theory on End Times. I happen to disagree with his theory, but I am certainly dogmatic that he is wrong. I have a Post Tribulation theory - and I believe that Scripture supports what I am about to mention.

I believe that the 70 weeks have been completed in the Ministry, Death & Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I further believe that when reading Daniel 9:24-27; and Daniel 12:11-13 these are the same prophecies - yet so misunderstood by many. I believe that these two mentioned times in Daniel are the same AOD - and they too have also been fulfilled - however, this AOD foreshadows the future 3.5 year Great Tribulation that will be completed by the last Antichrist.

To my knowledge, Scripture has been consistent in ONLY a 3.5 year period of time remaining. The saints will go through this time period known as the Great Tribulation - and these days will not be "shortened" for them. I think this can be proven by Scripture - and where Shorty and I disagree. The term used "If those days were not shortened no flesh would be saved" in my opinion means: "If that period of Time was longer than 3.5 years, no flesh would be saved."

[Sonbeam]

Thank you for your answer Mr. B.

I believe that the 70 weeks have been completed in the Ministry, Death & Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I further believe that when reading Daniel 9:24-27; and Daniel 12:11-13 these are the same prophecies - yet so misunderstood by many. I believe that these two mentioned times in Daniel are the same AOD - and they too have also been fulfilled - however, this AOD foreshadows the future 3.5 year Great Tribulation that will be completed by the last Antichrist.

To my knowledge, Scripture has been consistent in ONLY a 3.5 year period of time remaining. The saints will go through this time period known as the Great Tribulation - and these days will not be "shortened" for them. I think this can be proven by Scripture - and where Shorty and I disagree. The term used "If those days were not shortened no flesh would be saved" in my opinion means: "If that period of Time was longer than 3.5 years, no flesh would be saved."

I think I understand now what you and ST disagree about.

By the way, I don't believe that the 70 weeks have been completed yet. And I'm post-trib.


sonbeam

[shorttribber]

Hi sonbeam,
Mr. B almost explained our differences, but I will add a bit more about it tonight.

His best parts were to share the love we share in Christ.




Like MC Hammer would say...Can't touch this!

[Mr Baldy]

Thank you for your answer Mr. B.

I believe that the 70 weeks have been completed in the Ministry, Death & Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I further believe that when reading Daniel 9:24-27; and Daniel 12:11-13 these are the same prophecies - yet so misunderstood by many. I believe that these two mentioned times in Daniel are the same AOD - and they too have also been fulfilled - however, this AOD foreshadows the future 3.5 year Great Tribulation that will be completed by the last Antichrist.

To my knowledge, Scripture has been consistent in ONLY a 3.5 year period of time remaining. The saints will go through this time period known as the Great Tribulation - and these days will not be "shortened" for them. I think this can be proven by Scripture - and where Shorty and I disagree. The term used "If those days were not shortened no flesh would be saved" in my opinion means: "If that period of Time was longer than 3.5 years, no flesh would be saved."

I think I understand now what you and ST disagree about.

By the way, I don't believe that the 70 weeks have been completed yet. And I'm post-trib.

sonbeam

Hi Sonbeam -

Disagreeing about the 70th week being completed is most certainly understandable.

But let me articulate my position a bit further...…

You see the dilemma with the 1,260 day; 1,290 days and 1,335 days mentioned in Daniel 12:11-13 presents a huge problem if we believe that 3.5 years have already been completed - and 3.5 years remain. As mentioned, I believe that the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the Ministry; Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus. We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

I further believe the prophecies mentioned to Daniel by Gabriel were fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanies IV; and "perhaps" Titus. They were "types and shadows" of what the final Antichrist will do in the last 3.5 years. Most of us have confused these prophecies, and unite them with the final 3.5 years - and I think it's in error.

Please take a look at Daniel 12:1-4:

Daniel 12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Time of the End

“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3) Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4) But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we are given a "glimpse" of the final AOD. At this point, Daniel is told to seal up the book until the end of time. The question arises: "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?"

Here is the response:

I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.

Daniel is informed that the words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. At that point, he is informed how the wicked will act wickedly and none will understand. In verse 11-12 it mentions the 1,290 days and 1,335 days respectively, and I believe that this referred to the time in which the temple was destroyed by Titus, because if you'll notice in verse 13 he tells Daniel: "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age." Prior to mentioning the 1,290 & 1,335 days Daniel had been informed that the words were "concealed and sealed" - so I believe this refers to the AOD mentioned in Daniel 9:27, and has nothing to do with the final 3.5 years.

I also want to bring to the attention of those who feel that the 70th week has not been completed to the very Words that Jesus said in Matthew 24:15:

Matthew 24:15 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Many want to refer the aforementioned prophecy to an event that has not happened - but that is not necessarily the case. I have embolden the words "spoken of" that Jesus mentioned. So the question becomes, "what did he mean?" Additionally, it states: "let the reader understand." Well, I believe that the reference Jesus makes "spoken of" - means that Daniel mentioned this; it occurred with Antiochus and/or Titus - and those evens foreshadowed what the coming Antichrist will do.

In closing - I have never been satisfied with the "gap theory" - as it never made sense, or added up. What does make sense, and what I have consistently seen written in Scripture is a final 3.5 year period that remains - and I feel it has nothing to do with the 70th week.

[Ready1]

As mentioned, I believe that the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the Ministry; Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus. We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

I have seen this statement multiple times, in fact over and over in one form or another; but I would like for someone to share what they mean by this statement on a point-by-point basis. (i.e. There are six or seven things (depending on how you divide them) which will be completed by the ending of the 70 weeks.) If this statement is indeed true, and I am not questioning whether you believe it to be true, each point ought to be supportable by other scriptures which point back to this passage. They ought to be contextually accurate and be able to advance the argument that "the entire 70 weeks were completed - by the ministry: Death/Burial & Resurrection of Jesus."

Any takers?

Jesus statement on the cross has been bandied around multiple times as well, with the claim that it is supportive of this notion. The following is a common example of this type of statement. And while I believe that i understand well what Jesus was saying on the cross, I have no way to tie it to Dan 9:24. So I am curious how someone else can do so. While it sounds good, even impressive, at this point I have not seen any scriptural support for this claim. Please give the logic and reasoning behind your claim.

We need look no further at the very words he said on the Cross: "It is FINISHED." I really don't understand why I never caught that in the past. The events in Daniel 9:24 - ALL point to Christ. So when He said "It is FINSHED" I believe that is exactly what He meant. Finished means Finished.

[shorttribber]

Mr. B wrote: Finished means Finished.

And Ready replied: I have seen this statement multiple times, in fact over and over in one form or another; but I would like for someone to share what they mean by this statement on a point-by-point basis.

Might be a good thread: I have not heard any real good point by point either on that, and it would be a good challenge.

My personal feeling is, he Completed his personal in the Flesh Ministry and Will of The Father....enduring the shame , rejection and suffering, and Finished his Task.

Any takers?