U-Turn Rapture?

[mark s]

I know some have suggested that Jesus returns from heaven, catching up the saints just before He sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

If you hold to this view, I'm interested in this question.

If Jesus catches up the saints just before He sets foot on earth, who are these?

Zechariah 14:3-5 KJV
(3)  Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
(4)  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(5)  And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Who is this who flees through this valley that is created by Jesus' physical return to the Mount of Olives?

It seems to me . . .

This is the winepress of God's wrath.

This will be just like the Red Sea, except it will be with a mountain.

Jesus comes, His holy ones with Him, and alights on the Mount of Olives.

The mountain splits in two, one half moving north, one half moving south, and between these two fresh granite faces a wide valley opens. Those Israelites, who have been being destroyed by Antichrist, will flee through that valley. The armies of Antichrist follow, and just like the Egyptians, the mountain closes upon them, and the blood flowed 5 feet deep for many many miles.

OK, some of this may be speculative, but I think that's what is being described.

But just the same, if you believe that the believers are all removed just before Jesus returns, who are these that flee through the valley?

And for that matter, who are the sheep, from that sheep and goats judgment, who are separated out as righteous at that same time when Jesus returns?

Weren't they all raptured and U-turned with Jesus?

Much love!
Mark

[shorttribber]

If Jesus catches up the saints just before He sets foot on earth, who are these?
Zechariah 14:3-5 KJV(3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
(4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.(5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Hi mark,
Unbelievers will flee from God, and hid themselves or come against him in battle.

It seems to me . . .This is the winepress of God's wrath.

True...I agree

Jesus comes, His holy ones with Him, and alights on the Mount of Olives.

The text says....
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives

The text says nothing of the holy ones Alighting or touching the Mount With him...only that they Come With or Follow After Him...as we compare Rev 19 with this text.

The mountain splits in two, one half moving north, one half moving south, and between these two fresh granite faces a wide valley opens. Those Israelites, who have been being destroyed by Antichrist, will flee through that valley. The armies of Antichrist follow, and just like the Egyptians, the mountain closes upon them, and the blood flowed 5 feet deep for many many miles.

True also I think....The 144,000 will be protected by God...and the ungodly flee after them.

But just the same, if you believe that the believers are all removed just before Jesus returns, who are these that flee through the valley?

The 144,000 and the ungodly fleeing after them.

That's how I understand it.

And for that matter, who are the sheep, from that sheep and goats judgment, who are separated out as righteous at that same time when Jesus returns?

I've addressed this before....the Sheep/Goat judgment is a parable, and will occur DURING the great trib...not After Jesus Literally and Physically Comes.

He will be Seated in all of his Glory IN the Saints DURING the Great Trib.....THAT will be the Testimony of Jesus, IN THE Saints.
2Thes
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Weren't they all raptured and U-turned with Jesus?

I think of it not as a Uturn...but a gathering of Beauty, Power, and Glory in the lower heavens that will be witnessed by all unbelievers!

I think it will be quite a spectacle! not the turning around of a car to go the other direction.

I realize that those who would disagree like to use the Uturn analogy to make this idea sound a little silly...or meaningless.

When it happens, I don't think it will be the least bit meaningless or silly though...it will be marvelous beyond comprehension!

For the sake of expanding our thinking, try to imagine the saints, All the faithful from the beginning of creation being gathered in the lower heavens for Every EYE to SEE! Imagine Jesus so incredibly large that He appears in the Heavens as large as the Pacific Ocean! Now imagine Every Eye witnessing the Resurrection occurring and the Living saints transformed instantly into bright and shining glorious bodies ascending to meet the risen saints in the air/clouds.....a group so massive that this cloud of believers literally Cover the entire Earth!

What a Sight! Then the unbelievers are shaking beyond imagination when the entire group begins to Follow AFTER Christ who is then leading the whole bright and shining heavenly army back to Earth!

I think this ...so called UTURN will have it's desired Affect!

I realize also that this description is speculative...but putting all the texts of scripture together....I think it is possible to have things occur this way...just possibly.

[mark s]

Hi ST,

I guess the simplest response is to say that your interpretation of the Sheep/Goats judgment as a parable shows how we look at Scripture differently, and therefore will continue to disagree over these things.

I say prophecy, to be fulfilled just like His coming is prophecy that will be fulfilled. You say parable . . . how do you know His coming isn't a parable? He spoke it in the same way, after all.

For myself, if Scripture declares something to be a parable, or a type, then I say that it is. Otherwise, what prevents us from simply declaring anything that doesn't fit our view to be, well, 'it's a parable'?

Much love,
Mark

[mark s]

If Jesus catches up the saints just before He sets foot on earth, who are these?
Zechariah 14:3-5 KJV(3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
(4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.(5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Hi ST,

So it seems at the end of it all your answer is:

The 144,000 and the ungodly fleeing after them.

I would have considered the 144,000 to be believers. But then you are saying "the 144,000 and the ungodly", these being then distinct from each other?

My question would be, are the 144,000 part of the believers, or part of the ungodly?

If part of the believers, why weren't they caught up with all the other believers?

Jesus comes, His holy ones with Him, and alights on the Mount of Olives.

The text says....
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives

The text says nothing of the holy ones Alighting or touching the Mount With him...only that they Come With or Follow After Him...as we compare Rev 19 with this text.

To clarify this part, as I wrote "alights", being singular, this is Jesus alone. So you will see that I also said nothing about the the holy ones alighting.

Weren't they all raptured and U-turned with Jesus?

I think of it not as a Uturn...but a gathering of Beauty, Power, and Glory in the lower heavens that will be witnessed by all unbelievers!

I think it will be quite a spectacle! not the turning around of a car to go the other direction.

I realize that those who would disagree like to use the Uturn analogy to make this idea sound a little silly...or meaningless.

So then basically this is occuring in your understanding for the spectacle, is that correct?

I suppose my understanding is that being glorified in His saints comes after His arrival, but that Jesus alone will be glorified in that day. But, I suppose that may be speculative also.

Much love!
Mark

[shorttribber]

My question would be, are the 144,000 part of the believers, or part of the ungodly?

The 144,000 are believers, yes.......that is why the ungodly flee after them.

If part of the believers, why weren't they caught up with all the other believers?

That's God's business...they are a very special sort...I think scripture declares that.

To clarify this part, as I wrote "alights", being singular, this is Jesus alone. So you will see that I also said nothing about the the holy ones alighting.

I misunderstood your writing then, my apologies.

So then basically this is occuring in your understanding for the spectacle, is that correct?

There are other reasons unknown to me I'm sure...I'm just saying that it will be quite a spectacle, if it should occur that way.

I suppose my understanding is that being glorified in His saints comes after His arrival, but that Jesus alone will be glorified in that day. But, I suppose that may be speculative also.

We all do speculate to some degree...it is unavoidable.

[mark s]

If part of the believers, why weren't they caught up with all the other believers?

That's God's business...they are a very special sort...I think scripture declares that.

So then, it's not, "we who are alive and remain", but, "some of us who are alive and remain"? Isn't that what this would mean?

Much love!
Mark

[shorttribber]

If part of the believers, why weren't they caught up with all the other believers?

That's God's business...they are a very special sort...I think scripture declares that.

So then, it's not, "we who are alive and remain", but, "some of us who are alive and remain"? Isn't that what this would mean?

Much love!
Mark

Not necessarily....they are Jews that may not have received Christ...but are faithful as to what they know according to the Law. They, may be some of the few that survive the 30 days of wrath of God by His divine protection.


I'm not sure mark, but you make a very good point....I need to look closer at the text you first mentioned also.

[shorttribber]

I did some interesting reading mark regarding the earthquake in the time of Uzziah.

According to what I read (In matthew Henry unabridged commentary) he states that according to the writings of Josephus, there were Jews that were forewarned by two years BEFORE that earthquake...and the Wise or believing to heeded the prophecy and fled BEFORE the earthquake! It was the Unbelieving and Sinful that were Fleeing AFTER the time of the Actual earthquake itself!

Amazing I think! The Ungodly ONLY are the "Ye" of verse Five! And the Godly or believing would not be there At That Time!

[mark s]

If I take that at face value, and pull back for broader context, I can easily see some having heeded, and escaped, but in the space of years before the event . . . no one repented?

Those of the Jews who heed the warning are raptured with the rest of us before the 70th week begins. Then the threshing begins. Those who remain alive at the end are saved.

Even so . . . Does this then mean you no longer think those fleeing include the 144,000? They are only the wicked and evil?

I noticed something else in your post above, on the duration of the wrath of God . . . I thought the 5th trumpet by itself lasts 5 months, am I remembering correctly? Are you thinking that the plagues of the Trumpets are not wrath, but the plagues of the bowls are? Just curious . . .

Much love!
Mark

[shorttribber]

Even so . . . Does this then mean you no longer think those fleeing include the 144,000? They are only the wicked and evil?

I think that is correct...yes.....based on the better information learned regarding that text.

Also I thank you very much for bringing this text to my attention. Also for the rethinking of how I look on the possibility of the 144,000 being part of the gathering to Christ at the rapture.

That whole matter had been unanswered before to me. I think the 144,000 should be gathered in the rapture with all the faithful.

I noticed something else in your post above, on the duration of the wrath of God . . . I thought the 5th trumpet by itself lasts 5 months, am I remembering correctly? Are you thinking that the plagues of the Trumpets are not wrath, but the plagues of the bowls are? Just curious . . .

You are correct in asking me this (just the bowls Alone are the Wrath of God).......and all things described in them need not last more than 30 days to be in agreement with the texts describing those.

blessing to ya, and a big

[shorttribber]

If I take that at face value, and pull back for broader context, I can easily see some having heeded, and escaped, but in the space of years before the event . . . no one repented?

Apparently not, it seems historically consistent with the depths of sin that most all Israel had reached.

[mark s]

Hi ST,

Curious, what do you think about this passage?

Revelation 14:1-5 KJV

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

How is it that the 144,000 are before the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders? Isn't that scene in heaven?

Much love!
mark

[mark s]

I noticed something else in your post above, on the duration of the wrath of God . . . I thought the 5th trumpet by itself lasts 5 months, am I remembering correctly? Are you thinking that the plagues of the Trumpets are not wrath, but the plagues of the bowls are? Just curious . . .

You are correct in asking me this (just the bowls Alone are the Wrath of God).......and all things described in them need not last more than 30 days to be in agreement with the texts describing those.

Hi ST,

On this point, how is it that the trumpets are not God's wrath considering . . .

The earth dwellers believe that the day of God's wrath has come.
They are called plagues just as the bowls are called plagues.
The bowls are called the "last seven plagues" as if they were part of a larger set.
Of the bowls it is written "in them is completed/finished/consumated the wrath of God", as leaving space that the trumpets begin that wrath, just as it would seem to me.

Any thoughts?

Much love!
Mark

[Ready1]

Of the bowls it is written "in them is completed/finished/consumated the wrath of God", as leaving space that the trumpets begin that wrath, just as it would seem to me.

I know that many have great problem with this, by why do we stop with the bowls and trumpets? Why must the seals be excluded from this outpouring of wrath. It seems to me that Jesus reveals the judgments that are coming upon the whole earth starting with the seals, progressing to the trumpets, and culminating with the bowls (which are the consummation or finishing of the wrath of God).


O dumb me! No comment needed.

[mark s]

Hi Ready1,

There are many who support that view.

For me, I don't see a place where these are call the same as the others, i.e. plagues, or wrath. It also seems that at least the 5th seal does not portray God's wrath, as this is the "souls under the altar" asking how long, wait a little til the rest come are killed", something like that.

I think this is referring to those Jews who will die under the beast, but still be saved.

Much love!
Mark

[Ready1]

Mark you may be right. (I am a lot less dogmatic than when I came to fulfilledProphecy in 2006.) ) But I would just throw this out. I would not say that the silence in heaven is what the opening of the seventh seal is all about, but rather the coming of much more nastiness to unbelievers upon the earth.

It seems to me that the seventh seal is the one which opens or reveals the trumpet judgments (or plagues if you prefer).

Rev 8:1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal on the scroll, there was silence throughout heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2 I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

Your thoughts?

[mark s]

I see the seals 1-6 being opened one right after another, in basically the same time it takes to read the passage. The church is removed, the 144,000 sealed, then the 7th seal opened, which begins the 70th week with the first judgment, the first trumpet, which is the same fire from heaven that destroys Gog and Magog et al.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi ST,

Curious, what do you think about this passage?

Revelation 14:1-5 KJV

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

How is it that the 144,000 are before the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders? Isn't that scene in heaven?

Much love!
mark

Don't mean to detract from the conversation here, but I lean toward the idea that the 144,000 are on earth here. They are shown in verse one as standing on Mount Zion with the Lamb. John hears a "voice" from heaven singing this "new song" (my guess is that it is the song of the millennial reign- a new dispensational age). No man (on earth) could learn the song sung by those in heaven before the throne except for those 144,000. Verse 4 and 5 go on to describe them (the 144,00) further. I see a distinction between those whose voice is heard from heaven singing the new song and the 144,000. Two separate groups not one. I realize that Mount Zion is referred to as both the place where earthly Jerusalem resides as well as the heavenly, but in this case I think the reference has the earthly in view since John is at this time in the revelation is outside of the heavenly throne-room describing events that unfold on earth.

RT

[mark s]

For myself I see this as a translation into heaven at the mid-point of the week.

Much love!
Mark

[Ready1]

Mark, you would see the 144,000 translated into heaven when? Do I understand you that you see this taking place after the sixth seal?

[mark s]

mid-point of the 70th week. The are on mount Zion, then they are before the throne. There's more, but I have only a few stolen minutes.

[shorttribber]

also, because there is a Plague, or something described as a plague does not automatically describe God's Wrath.

We are told in the very chapter describing the 144,000 that Judgment is referred to, but Not WRATH until we are told regarding the Cups or Bowls if you will of Gods WRATH...Poured out without Mixture.

It is the severity of the CUPS/BOWLS that make them God's Wrath....that's what I believe.

Also, because something is described as the Completing, Fullness or Terminus of God's wrath, does not also mean that the Beginning of God's wrath is not also contained therein.

There is a MIXTURE, described in the preceding Judgments, and That's what make them distinctly Different than the judgments that follow that ARE described Clearly and Only in the texts giving the account of the cups/bowls.