The EU, 4th Beast of Dan 2, and 4th Beast of Dan 7

[keithareilly]

This topic began as a tangent in another topic.

Personally, I do not think the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 is the fourth kingdom in Daniel chapter 7 and neither do I think the EU is either of the kingdoms in Daniel Chapter 2 or Chapter 7.

There are multiple opinions on this.

I have the following problems with equating the kingdom of Dan 2 with the Kingdom of Dan 7 and with the EU.


The four kingdoms of the statue in Daniel chapter 2 and the four kingdoms of Daniel chapter 7 cannot be the same four. Do they Overlap? Good question. I do not know for certain. What I do know is the first kingdom of each are not the same. This is a fact because Nebuchadnezzar is the first in the statue of chapter 2 and Nebuchadnezzar had died prior to the vision in Chapter 7 where 4 yet future kingdoms are prophesied. Because the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 were yet future kingdoms, no kingdom that existed during or prior to the vision can fit the prophecy.

Daniel chapter 4:22 - The vision Nebuchadnezzar. had of the tree
22 it is you, O king; for you have become great and grown strong, and your [t]majesty has become great and reached to the sky and your dominion to the end of the earth.
Really? Did Nebuchadnezzar's rule extend to the ski as it does in modern times? Did Nebuchadnezzar's rule extend to the ends of the earth? No, his rule did not include aircrafts and did not extend to the ends of the earth. So, when we read verses in the bible about the extent of a kingdom, we must accept the rule is considerable for that time period but not our time period.

Identifying the kingdoms - Four kingdoms of the statue and the rock cut from the mountains.
How do we determine for certain which kingdoms are the ones prophesied. Here is some food for thought. There were only three adult kings of Neo-Babylon after Nebuchadnezzar. One king was a child and killed after 9 months. If we ignore this child and not consider him a king then we have only three kings following Nebuchadnezzar. The last king divided the kingdom by demoting the god Marduk and elevating the moon god SIN throughout the kingdom. He did this for ten years while leaving his son, Belshazzar, in charge. Thus the fourth kingdom was divided between the Marduk worshipers and the Sin worshipers. Interestingly, Cyrus the Great, of Persia, conquered Neo-Babylon. It just so happens that Prior to Cyrus's conquests, Persia's map resembled a rock and was located in a Iranian Plateau. Hence we have a "rock cut out of the mountains" that broke and scattered the Neo-Babylonian empire to the winds.
Reigns of Neo-Babylon:
1)..605 - 562 BC .. Nebuchadnezzar
2)..562 - 560 BC .. Amel Murduk
3)..560 - 556 BC .. Nurgal-shar-usur
.....556 - 556 BC .. Labashi-Marduk - Never a ruling king, was a child and killed after 9 months
4)..556 - 539 BC .. Nabu-Na'id and his son Belshazzar

It could very well be that the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 statue was the fourth of the four adult adults that ruled beginning with Nebuchadnezzar. And was conquered by Cyrus the great. The problem is how do we know for certain which kingdoms are the really the last three of this prophecy?

The fourth beast of Daniel 7.
This beast is described as having ten horns that are ten kings. These kings are followed by another king, that subdues 3 kings. Many people have candidates for this beast. A good candidate is the Umayyad Caliphate. Why? because the caliphate had ten kings then three kings, the 11th, 12, and 13th were killed in the year 744 followed by king 14, Marwan II, who supervised wars against the Byzantine empire, ruled from 744 thru 750. (4 December 744 – 25 January 750); not 3 1/2 years. Most of the people the Umayyad ruled over were not Muslims but Christians from the Byzantine empire. Also, like Nebuchadnezzar, this kingdom is said to rule the earth. It's map resembles a beast with giant jaws/teeth.

So, In general, my problem is: How do we know for certain which kingdom is the prophesied kingdom?

It is pretty hard to know.

[mark s]

I'd like to chime in here, if I may . . .

There is a pastor at my church who keeps talking about the "convergence" of events that give complete certainty that we are on the cusp of the end of the age.

There is much interesting happening, but I'd have to say, until it actually comes to pass in completeness, the prophecy remains unfullfilled, and as such, things could change.

I remember in the 80's when it was revealed there had been a large underground warehousing area just inside Lebanon from Israel fully stock with Russian arms.

Ever since then, I've watched as events seem to be on the verge, then to back away. It's like the dance contest in "It's A Wonderful Life", Donna Reed and James Stewart doing the Charleston on the gym floor as it opens over the pool. The crowd cheers as they dance back and forth, getting closer and closer each time to falling into the widening gap over the pool. Back and forth, back and forth, and you never know until it happens, will this be the time? That's how I see things.

While I certainly follow things - I'm here, for instance! - I realize that this pattern is likely to repeat until it actually happens, as this "convergence" moves closer, then backs away, then closer still . . . keeping us all on our toes . . . living holy lives as we wait for Jesus.



Much love!
Mark

[Mr Baldy]

HI Keith,

I would like to address a comment you made...…

The fourth beast of Daniel 7.This beast is described as having ten horns that are ten kings. These kings are followed by another king, that subdues 3 kings. Many people have candidates for this beast. A good candidate is the Umayyad Caliphate. Why? because the caliphate had ten kings then three kings, the 11th, 12, and 13th were killed in the year 744 followed by king 14, Marwan II, who supervised wars against the Byzantine empire, ruled from 744 thru 750. (4 December 744 – 25 January 750); not 3 1/2 years. Most of the people the Umayyad ruled over were not Muslims but Christians from the Byzantine empire. Also, like Nebuchadnezzar, this kingdom is said to rule the earth. It's map resembles a beast with giant jaws/teeth.

In viewing Daniel 7, it appears that you have overlooked a very crucial part to this prophecy.

Please take a look at the True interpretation of this particular Prophecy:

Daniel 7:15-27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Vision Interpreted

15)“As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. 16) I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17) ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18) But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

19) “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20) and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21) I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22) until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

23) “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25) He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26) But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27) Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

In reading the aforementioned passages of Scripture, you can see that the 4th Beast - once in power will remain until Christ Returns. I believe that this is a very crucial point to understand. Therefore, you mentioning that "A good candidate for this beast is Umayyad Caliphate." Well Scripture very clearly disproves that theory.

Another thing to consider is in reading this passage of Scripture, one should also very clearly see that both man & Empire (Beast) are synonymous with one another. Ten Horns are described here arise from this Beast, and "another rises after them." When the WEU was established - The EU's High Representative was created. Javier Solana was this man.

Take a look at Daniel 7:8

Daniel 7:8 -New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

The Books of Revelation and Daniel work in complete Harmony. The EU may not be the 4th Beast - but I am challenging anyone to provide any factual evidence that it isn't. Everything that has happened with the EU since it began to form as an Empire appears to fit what Scripture has mentioned about this 4th Empire.

1) No one has been able to explain why this former Roman Empire is coming back to life.
2) No one has been able to explain why the WEU - which was literally 10 Nations gave up it's power and authority to the EU - which appears to fit Revelation 17:12-13

Revelation 17:12-13 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12)The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13) These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast

3) No one has been able to explain why the High Representatives Seat was created immediately after the 10 Nations were finally complete.
4) No one can explain why this Empire has plans to develop an Military (Army)

And....

5) No one can explain how the High Representatives Seat was created under Article 666 of the WEU's constitution - yet they are defunct and this Position still remains.

So there are many things to consider here.

[keithareilly]

Hi Mr Baldy,

You wrote

The EU may not be the 4th Beast - but I am challenging anyone to provide any factual evidence that it isn't.

As I said before, the problem is: How do we know for certain which kingdom fulfills prophecy?

My theory about the EU being the beast and harlot of revelation 17 has evidence it is true. Yet, that evidence may be nothing more than a co-incidence. So, we have candidates. Candidates are worth watching.

You argue the fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 does not end until Christ returns. It does not actually say that.

Daniel 7:13
"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

Here we see one like a Son of Man is presented to the ancient of days. Who is the one who is like the Son of Man?
Is this describing Christ before the Father? If so then the verse that says until the Ancient of Days comes is not talking about Christ's return. It is talking about the Father's judging the kingdom. Who did Abraham talk with about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Did Christ return and destroy the Jews in 70AD? We know the Father judged them as Christ prophesied about what would happen for them killing the Son of the vineyard owner. God has come and judged kingdoms and nations throughout the bible.

Daniel 7:21-22
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the [u]saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was [v]passed in favor of the [w]saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the [x]saints took possession of the kingdom.

So, who comes and judges, the Son of Man or the Ancient of Days?
Does not appear to me this is describing a kingdom during the time of Christ's return.


Keith

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Keith,

Let's address Scripture to the logical that you have mentioned.

You argue the fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 does not end until Christ returns. It does not actually say that.

YES - It does indeed say that - and the ensuing points followed by Scripture should prove it to you.

Daniel 7:13"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. Here we see one like a Son of Man is presented to the ancient of days. Who is the one who is like the Son of Man? Is this describing Christ before the Father? If so then the verse that says until the Ancient of Days comes is not talking about Christ's return. It is talking about the Father's judging the kingdom.

Keith - Jesus IS the "Ancient of Days". God is Triune - I don't have time to get into the Godhead, as no man truly understands it, and the Mystery of how ALL 3 persons are ONE - but the Father Judges no one, or NOTHING.

John 5:22-23 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22) For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given ALL judgment to the Son, 23) so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 5:26-27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

I think that the aforementioned passage of Scripture should answer your question. The Father does not Judge. - ALL Authority has been given to the Son. Jesus Christ is the ONLY God anyone will ever see.

Matthew 28:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

18) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “ ALL authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

So, who comes and judges, the Son of Man or the Ancient of Days? Does not appear to me this is describing a kingdom during the time of Christ's return.

I think that I have provided sufficient Scripture to prove that Jesus, "The Son of Man" is ALSO "The Ancient of Days."

Additionally, when Christ Returns His Kingdom Comes! This is yet another reason why I struggle so hard believing that there is a very literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ. I very honestly no longer believe it to be true. When Jesus Appears - then it will be the END of the World as we know it. His Kingdom will have come - and Judgment will commence.

The verses you have mentioned in Daniel 7 have been in complete harmony in what I have been suggesting.

[keithareilly]

Mark 12:1-11
12 Then He began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard, put a fence around it, dug out a pit for a winepress, and built a watchtower. Then he leased it to tenant farmers and went away. 2 At harvest time he sent a slave to the farmers to collect some of the fruit of the vineyard from the farmers. 3 But they took him, beat him, and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent another slave to them, and they[a] hit him on the head and treated him shamefully.[b] 5 Then he sent another, and they killed that one. He also sent many others; they beat some and they killed some.

6 “He still had one to send, a beloved son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’

7 “But those tenant farmers said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours!’ 8 So they seized him, killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9 “Therefore, what will the owner[c] of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the farmers and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this Scripture:

The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone.[d]
11 This came from the Lord
and is wonderful in our eyes?”[e]


Luke 23:
33 When they came to the place called [i]The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 [j]But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.

So, did the owner of the vineyard destroy the Jews in the Jewish Roman war?
Did Christ after, asking the Father to forgive them, Himself come and destroy the Jews in the Jewish Roman wars?

If it was Christ Himself, then Why did He ask for the Father to forgive them?

I understand you have a theory. But, I do not buy into the Idea that Christ is the one who came and destroyed the Jews after asking the Father to forgive them and after telling the Jewish leaders the owner of the vineyard will come and destroy them for killing Jesus Himself. It is clear form history the Father did not heed Jesus's request to forgive the Jews for Killing Jesus. It is not consistent to say Jesus asked the Father to forgive, then to say, it was Jesus himself who came and executed judgement on the Jews through the Jewish Roman wars after asking the Father to forgive them.

It is the Father who brought the judgement upon the Jewish Kingdom. Scriptures say it is the Ancient of Days that Judges the 4th kingdom; the the Son of Man is is present and mentioned in the chapter, it does not the Son of Man judges the kingdom; it says the Ancient of Days judges the Kingdom.

Nice try.

[keithareilly]

Jay wrote in another thread ...

Rev 16:17-21 tells us that after WW1, Babylon will again be remembered by God and that at that time His wrath will be poured out against Babylon, as foretold in other Biblical Prophecies.

So, because Babylon is mentioned and because Babylon is in Iraq, you equate Iraq with Mystery Babylon, Correct?
If I am correct in my understanding of what you are saying, do you also view the two wars against Iraq by the two Bush's as fulfillment of wrath on Babylon?

[Mr Baldy]

It is clear form history the Father did not heed Jesus's request to forgive the Jews for Killing Jesus. It is not consistent to say Jesus asked the Father to forgive, then to say, it was Jesus himself who came and executed judgement on the Jews through the Jewish Roman wars after asking the Father to forgive them.

Keith,

I anticipated that you would "go there." That is why I mentioned to you on my last post that the Godhead is a Mystery, and most certainly NO man can understand it.

As I have read a few of your threads, and I've mentioned this to you before - I have come to the understanding that you over and over again try to apply human logic and intellect to the things that are spiritual in nature. This is an absolute "No-No." You do indeed err when you do this.

Here is a passage of Scripture for you:

1 Corinthians 2:14 -New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14) But natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Keith - you cannot apply human logic to things that are spiritual - or Scripture, which is the Word of God.

Great is the Mystery of the Godhead.

1 Timothy 3:16 - King James Version (KJV)

16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 2:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9) For in Him ALL the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Jesus is GOD - and He is the Only God we well ever see throughout Eternity.

Scriptures say it is the Ancient of Days that Judges the 4th kingdom; the the Son of Man is is present and mentioned in the chapter, it does not the Son of Man judges the kingdom; it says the Ancient of Days judges the Kingdom.

Keith, if you can't see that Jesus is the Ancient of Days - then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see that Scripture, in it's Entirety points to Jesus - then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see that Jesus and the Father are one, and when you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father - then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see that it is JESUS, and all that we live for is Him - then I don't know what to tell you.

Those who worship God, must worship in Spirit & in Truth. The wisdom of the World won't save anyone. When we place our own ideology and human practicality as far as reading and comprehending the Word of God we most certainly miss the mark. Our egos are only self-edifying and does nothing for the Body of Christ as a whole.

You started this thread about the EU and the 4th Beast. Well let me say that Daniel 7 is extremely clear about this 4th Empire remaining until the Return of Christ. When He Comes - there WILL BE JUDGMENT. Make no mistake about that.

I have never been dogmatic in my views - as I have been wrong many times; however, I will say that I have never seen anything line up with Bible Prophecy in my very short lifetime, as I have with the development of the EU. It totally blows my mind that the things that are happening, and have happen most certainly appears to be fulfilling Bible Prophecy. When I look at what the naysayers say or write (even here on this forum) I am very quickly reminded that when Jesus appeared the First time - they did not recognize or even understand His First appearing. It's no wonder that He came - and gave multiple warnings about being prepared:

Because We Do Not Know the Day or the Hour of His Return.

[shorttribber]

If it was Christ Himself, then Why did He ask for the Father to forgive them?
..............(Edited out portion addressing Mr B specifically)........................ I do not buy into the Idea that Christ is the one who came and destroyed the Jews after asking the Father to forgive them and after telling the Jewish leaders the owner of the vineyard will come and destroy them for killing Jesus Himself. It is clear form history the Father did not heed Jesus's request to forgive the Jews for Killing Jesus. It is not consistent to say Jesus asked the Father to forgive, then to say, it was Jesus himself who came and executed judgement on the Jews through the Jewish Roman wars after asking the Father to forgive them.

Hi Keith,
Just wanted to address this one part of you comment..." It is clear form history the Father did not heed Jesus's request to forgive the Jews for Killing Jesus."

Judgment is not equivalent to being "Unforgiven" in the manner you are thinking.

Sin has consequences. And, the Judgment (Will) of God to allow or disallow calamity to come and go in all of our lives, will come, whether we have been "Forgiven" a Specific Sin or not.

Jesus asked for "Them" to be "Forgiven".

The key to this Apparently unanswered request by Christ to the Father can be solved if we allow a certain Perspective to be received.

When Christ said "Them", His Perspective was not regarding those who Personally were responsible for His death and crucifixion.

He spoke to the Father regarding the Entirety of the Jewish people as a whole, and they WILL Eventually be Forgiven when they are Graft back in to Himself/Christ.

When Christ said, "They know not what they do", it is because the People as a Whole were Blinded in Part.

The Vipers who did conspire to kill the son Knew Exactly what they were doing.....they were a Kabul/Dark, Evil Workers with satan to Destroy the Promised SEED of the Woman.

But God....GOD Almighty had Other Plans

The "Partially Blinded" Jewish People will be Forgiven, and Christ's prayer for them will prevail also.

[keithareilly]

Hi SHorttrib,

Nice to hear from you.

When Christ said "Them", His Perspective was not regarding those who Personally were responsible for His death and crucifixion.

The problem I have with this is it is those who commit the sin that need forgiveness. There is no reason to forgive those who are not responsible.

Matthew 27
24When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.” 25And all the people said, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!” 26 Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified.

The people took responsibility through their own words. And the Father sent an army that killed them and their children. The Father did not forgive them for their actions for which, through their owns words, they took responsibility. Instead, the Father killed them, waged war on them, destroyed their temple, wiped them from the vineyard, and turned the vineyard into a desert.

That does not fit my understanding of the definition of forgiveness.

Keith

[shorttribber]

The problem I have with this is it is those who commit the sin that need forgiveness. There is no reason to forgive those who are not responsible.

Hi again Keith,
Paul describes a "Whole People" that were "Cut Off" because of Unbelief, but would Later be graft back in to Himself.

The people took responsibility through their own words.

Yes, they did. I have quoted their words (blood on us and children) also in the past to prove God's judgment against them.....but as I said......God's mercy endures forever, and repentance will ALWAYS Bring Forgiveness.

Christ spoke of "Them" as a Whole people, throughout the ages, not just those who were Personally There, and Personally Reasonable at the moment.

[keithareilly]

Hi Mr Baldy.

Being one is about unity.

Jesus himself shows oneness is about unity when he said.
John 17:20-23
20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

We recognize there were multiple disciples and we distinguish in our studies by name: Peter, John, Andrew, etc.
Even if they became one, a past disciple could have talked with Peter and not John; even if Peter and John were one.

You were in the military. You understand what a "unit" is.
The same is true for God.
Hence we have the verse in Genesis that says let us create man in our image.

The plural of unit is units.
The plural of team is teams.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

How can Jesus not know something the Father knows?

Daniel 7 describes the Son of Man approaching the Ancient of Days.
After describing the Son of Man approaching the Ancient of Days, the chapter describes the coming of the ancient of Days. You argue the coming of the Ancient of Days is equivalent to the coming of the Son of Man.

Not so, else Jesus, the Son of Man, would have known the day and hour.

Keith

[keithareilly]

Mr Baldy,

I am not the one connecting various prophecies through logic and reason and coming up with an end times theory.
You and others are doing this.

For example:
Given:
1) Christ is God
2) Christ is the Son of Man
3) The Ancient of Days is God
4) Daniel 7 talks about the coming of the Ancient of Days
Conclusion:
The coming of the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 is the same as the return of the Christ in Revelation.

I am not the one applying logic and reason to defend an end times theory.
That is you.

Do I use logic and reason? Sure just as you are doing.
What I am doing is pointing out that you have concluded the coming of the Ancient of Days is the same as the coming of Christ.

I am not saying the conclusion is wrong.
Yet, because one cannot verify the conclusion to be true, I do not accept it as a fact. I recognize other interpretations may actually be the truth, over the conclusion. Personally, I limit the conclusions I say are true because I recognize the difference between conclusions and fact. This is one reason I do not have en end times theory. I do not apply certain conclusions as facts as you are doing then piece together an end times theory. Why? because building on unproven conclusions is speculation. I want evidence not just conclusions.

Please, recognize: you and others are applying logic and reason to scriptures in a more liberal manner than do I and you and others do this to defend your end times theories.

Thanks,

Keith

[keithareilly]

Mr Baldy,

Here is some food for thought about logic and reason.

Given:
1) 2 + 2 = 4
2) 2 X 2 = 4
3) 2 X 2 = 2 + 2
Conclusion
X and + are identical functions.

Conclusions, even when based upon provable facts, are not necessarily true.

This is an example of 'human reasoning'.

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Keith,

I wrote this earlier - and I wholeheartedly stand by it:

Keith - you cannot apply human logic to things that are spiritual - or Scripture, which is the Word of God.

Keith, if you can't see that Jesus is the Ancient of Days - then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see that Scripture, in it's Entirety points to Jesus - then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see that Jesus and the Father are one, and when you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father - then I don't know what to tell you. If you can't see that it is JESUS, and all that we live for is Him - then I don't know what to tell you.

In closing, I not trying to convince you, or anyone else about what I believe. Nor am I ever going to have countless debates about the Godhead, as here is not a person alive that understands it and/or the mysteries thereof. If you cannot see, or understand that Jesus is indeed God - and the ONLY GOD we will ever see throughout Eternity, then it's not up to me to prove it to you.

God Bless!

[keithareilly]

Mr Baldy,

May the Lord bless you as well.

As always I enjoy our conversations.

Keith

[keithareilly]

Jay wrote in another thread ...

Rev 16:17-21 tells us that after WW1, Babylon will again be remembered by God and that at that time His wrath will be poured out against Babylon, as foretold in other Biblical Prophecies.

So, because Babylon is mentioned and because Babylon is in Iraq, you equate Iraq with Mystery Babylon, Correct?
If I am correct in my understanding of what you are saying, do you also view the two wars against Iraq by the two Bush's as fulfillment of wrath on Babylon?

[Jay Ross]

Jay wrote in another thread ...

Rev 16:17-21 tells us that after WW1, Babylon will again be remembered by God and that at that time His wrath will be poured out against Babylon, as foretold in other Biblical Prophecies.

So, because Babylon is mentioned and because Babylon is in Iraq, you equate Iraq with Mystery Babylon, Correct?
If I am correct in my understanding of what you are saying, do you also view the two wars against Iraq by the two Bush's as fulfillment of wrath on Babylon?

No, because the coalitions purpose after 9/11 was to heal the land contrary to what God wanted to occur. Read Jeremiah 50-51. The two wars against Iraq were very different. The last war meant that the Coalition of the Willing in occupying the land of the Chaldeans became the fifth segment of the Daniel 2 Prophecy, i.e. the feet. When the feet are attacked by the rock that comes down out of heaven, the statue will topple over because the stabilising abilities of the feet of the statue will be lost.

The premise of the invasion of the Coalition of the Willing was formulated from flawed "Christian" theological understanding and a desire to force God's hand into bringing on the End Times. This is also the motive with respect to encouragement of Israel as well because, Dan 11:34: - Now when they fall, {i.e.Dan 11:33: - . . . by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.}, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue.

Shalom

PS. The process of God pouring out His wrath against Babylon after WW1 will take time but after WW1 Babylon will be remembered by God once more, after it is reformed because of the liquid that burns that comes from beneath its sand, for His wrath against Babylon after a period of devastation and desolation for a little over 2,000 years.

[keithareilly]

Jay,

Why do you think Jeremiah is talking about a post WW1 destruction of Babylon instead of the ancient destruction?
The ancient city Babylon was destroyed and has never been rebuilt and occupied. It was destroyed by the Cyrus the Great after he conquered Media and Lydia. Also, Iraq is a desert just as was prophesied to occur. So why do you interpret this as a modern destruction instead of the historical destruction?

[Jay Ross]

Jay,

Why do you think Jeremiah is talking about a post WW1 destruction of Babylon instead of the ancient destruction?
The ancient city Babylon was destroyed and has never been rebuilt and occupied. It was destroyed by the Cyrus the Great after he conquered Media and Lydia. Also, Iraq is a desert just as was prophesied to occur. So why do you interpret this as a modern destruction instead of the historical destruction?

No, he is writing about two destructions of Babylon, the first making the land desolate and devastated, with the second
destruction being because of God's wrath against Babylon during the End Times.

Because, there are two Kings of the North, and ancient King of the north, i.e. one of the four Grecian Empires that came after Alex the Great, that made Babylon desolate and devastated the utilities, i.e. buildings etc. of the kingdom.

And also because the prophecy timeframe is set to when Israel come seeking the Lord to re-establish themselves with the Lord.

Jeremiah 50:1-5: - Judgment on Babylon and Babylonia

50:1 The word that the Lord spoke against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.

2 "Declare among the nations,
Proclaim, and set up a standard;
Proclaim — do not conceal it —
Say, 'Babylon is taken, Bel is shamed.
Merodach is broken in pieces;
Her idols are humiliated,
Her images are broken in pieces.' [/b]
3 [b]For out of the north a nation comes up against her,
Which shall make her land desolate,
And no one shall dwell therein.
They shall move, they shall depart,
Both man and beast.

4 "In those days and in that time," says the Lord,
"The children of Israel shall come,
They and the children of Judah together;
With continual weeping they shall come,
And seek the Lord their God.

5 They shall ask the way to Zion,
With their faces toward it, saying,
'Come and let us join ourselves to the Lord
In a perpetual covenant
That will not be forgotten.'

Also

Jeremiah 50:35-40

35 "A sword is against the Chaldeans," says the Lord,
"Against the inhabitants of Babylon,
And against her princes and her wise men.
36 A sword is against the soothsayers, and they will be fools.
A sword is against her mighty men, and they will be dismayed.
37 A sword is against their horses,
Against their chariots,
And against all the mixed peoples who are in her midst;
And they will become like women.
A sword is against her treasures, and they will be robbed.
38 A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up.
For it is the land of carved images,
And they are insane with their idols.

39 "Therefore the wild desert beasts shall dwell there with the jackals,
And the ostriches shall dwell in it.
It shall be inhabited no more forever/{For a finite period of time},
Nor shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation/{one generation/age and for another generation/age, i.e. for two generations/ages, for a period of time a little longer than 2,000 years.}.
40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors," says the Lord,
"So no one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.

Shalom

[keithareilly]

Jay wrote

5 They shall ask the way to Zion,
With their faces toward it, saying,
'Come and let us join ourselves to the Lord
In a perpetual covenant
That will not be forgotten.'

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

God established the covenant almost 2000 years ago, after the Jews returned from Babylon.
Why do you think this is not referring to Christ's death and resurrection?

[Jay Ross]

Jay wrote

5 They shall ask the way to Zion,
With their faces toward it, saying,
'Come and let us join ourselves to the Lord
In a perpetual covenant
That will not be forgotten.'

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

God established the covenant almost 2000 years ago, after the Jews returned from Babylon.
Why do you think this is not referring to Christ's death and resurrection?

Keith, your argument rests on the word "eternal" in the Hebrews 13:20 verse above, but my understanding of eternal is that the covenant was from the very beginning of creation and will exist also at the very end of time after the time of eternity. Jesus came 2,000 years ago to make reconciliation for iniquity with a worthy sacrifice that would wash away all of the repented sins of mankind for those who will believe in Him Who He sent to achieve this achieve this outcome.

Christ came to refurbish the Salvation Covenant so that it was like new again, which has existed since the beginning of time, so that mankind could receive the world that God will show us that we will live in when we receive our inheritance of eternal Life because of our deemed righteousness.

Reconciliation with God has always been there for those who accepted God's reconciliation through believing God and His Promises.

Our desires to have the latest and newest means of becoming like God is what is on offer from Satan and will be our stumbling block as we will reject the true foundational building block as a gift from God, because it is too easy to receive.

Shalom

PS: - What covenant is being referred to in the Jeremiah 50:5 passage context that I quoted above?