The 144,000

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The 144,000

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:56 pm

Just thought i would leave this here. The Temple Institute announced that a unblemished red heifer had been born, if the red heifer remains unblemished its ashes could be used in the ritual purification of the Temple grounds before it is rebuilt. The ashes of the red heifer would be one of the last things needed before the rebuilding of the Temple could begin, other than dealing with the muslim nations who would never allow a Temple to be rebuilt without a major battle, which would appear to be Gog-Magog. It is interesting that the leading nations of the Gog-Magog alliance, Turkey, Iran and Russia, are coming together at this time.

Preparations are being made for the 3rd Temple, and priests are being trained. Those who are descendants of the tribe of Levi can be determined through genetic testing and often their last names (Levi, etc). But if the Gog-Magog battle occurs before the rebuilding of the Temple, God may have another group in mind to serve in the priestly role.

The 144,000 in Rev 7 are from the tribes of Israel (except Dan), and are sealed by God. Sealing would imply a claim or ownership of the item sealed, the 144,000 are God's possession. The 144,000 are again seen in Rev 14 with Jesus, having the name of Jesus and the Father on their foreheads, again implying possession, and they are described as 'firstfruits' to God and the Lamb.

An interesting statement is made of them- 'These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.' " Defiling' ones self with women would appear to refer to something more than just sexual relations with someone of the opposite sex. The marriage bed is sanctioned by God so not being defiled does not require virginity, although in this case virginity would prove that no defiling has taken place.

In scripture being defiled, doing something to soil oneself, to make that which had been set apart to no longer be set apart, would appear to be a reference to Old Testament law and often the Temple. The priests were considered holy, set apart to God- 'Priests...must be holy to their God..because they present the offerings made to the Lord by fire...' Lev 21:7.

And in regards to women, priests were to avoid those who were defiled so they themselves would not become defiled-' They must not marry women defiled by prostitution or divorced from their husbands, because priests are holy to their God.. the woman he marries must be a virgin. He must not marry a widow, a divorced woman, or a woman defiled by prostitution, but only a virgin from his own people, so he will not defile his offspring among his people. I am the Lord, who make him holy.' .'Lev 21

Because of the reference in Rev 14 to the 144,000 not being defiled with women, as the OT priests were to be, and being holy- 'no lie was found in their mouths, they are blameless..', and being God's possession (set apart, holy), imo the 144,000 are likely the priests who will serve in the rebuilt 3 Temple.

Which could be a problem as only the Levites were supposed to serve in the Temple, and the 144,000 are described as coming from all the tribes of Israel (except Dan).

The theory is that Gog-Magog will occur early in the 70th week or just prior to the 70th week, to prepare they way for the rebuilding of the Temple. Ezekiel, after describing Gog in chapters 38, 39, goes on to describe plans for a rebuilt temple which has aspects consistent with both a pre-millenial Temple, the 3rd Temple, and a millenial Temple, the 4th Temple that Jesus will build and dwell in. After Gog it is likely that Israel will focus on the plans in Ezekiel which includes Ezek 44:10- 'The Levites who went far from me when Israel weent astray and who wandered from me after their idols must bear the consequences of their sin. They may serve in my sanctuary, having charge of the gates of the Temple and serving in it; they may slaughter the burnt offerings aand sacrifices for the people and stand before the people and serve them.

But because they served them in the presence of their idols and made the house of Israel fall into sin, therefore I have sworn with uplifted hand that they must bear the consequences of their sin....they are not to come near to serve me as priests or come near any of my holy things or my most holy offerings; they must bear the shame of their detestable practices. Yet I will put them in charge of the duties of the Temple and all the work that is to be done in it.

So it would appear that if God's instructions in Ezekiel are to be followed, which it is likely that they will be, the Levites cannot be priests in the rebuilt Temple of God, and they are training the wrong people. Who will the priests of the future rebuilt Temple then be?
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Re: The 144,000

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:57 pm

It would appear that the Levites were taken by God to serve in the place of others in Israel- 'The Lord also said to Moses, I have taken the Levites from among the Israelites in place of the first male offspring of every Israelite woman. The Levites are mine, for all the firstborn are mine... take the Levites in place of all the firstborn of Israel...the Levites are to be mine...' -Numbers 3, and in Numbers 8- ' After you have purified the Levites and presented them as a wave offering, they are to come and do their work at the Tent of Meeting....I have taken them as my own in the place of the firstborn, the first male offspring from every Israelite woman. Every firstborn male in Israel...is mine. When I struck down all the firstborn of Egypt, I set them apart for myself.

Originally God considered all the first born males of Israel, from all of the tribes, as His possession. God took the Levites in place of the first born to serve in the Temple, and as the Levites served in place of others, it would appear that if the Levites were no longer an acceptable substitute, the responsibility would revert to those who were first considered 'set apart' to God, which would then be all the firstborn males of Israel, literally the 'firstfruits' of the womb, the first fruits of Israel.

Rev 14 describes the 144,000 as 'offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb...' and 'they were purchased from among men. The first born of Israel in the OT were 'redeemed' and money was given on their behalf- ' redeem the 273 firstborn Israelites who exceed the number of Levites, collect five shekels for each one...give the money for the redemption of the additional Israelites to Aaron and his sons.' Numbers 3.'

It would then follow that if the Levites were unacceptable as priests, that responsibility would revert to all the firstborn of all the tribes of Israel. The 144,000 are from all the tribes of Israel (except Dan, but including Levi- non priestly service), are set apart as God's possession (sealed), do not defile themselves with women (as the priests were instructed), are 'firstfruits'(firstborn), purchased from among men (similar to the OT firstborn which had money paid on their behalf).

The 144,000 serve the Father but also follow the Son, the Lamb, they come to know Christ. Which may be the event described in Joel 2(after an attack by a northern army consistent with Gog-Magog), what appears to be the 'Pentecost' to come- 'I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days...and everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.'

Mount Zion is the Temple mount upon which the Temple will be rebuilt.
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Re: The 144,000

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:09 pm

Just to finish this out, imo the significance of the 144,000 being priests and those who perform duties in the rebuilt temple could be that this group may be described elsewhere in Rev under another name.

The 144,000 are described in Rev 7 in association with the great multitude which cannot be numbered that comes out of or is present during the GT. As the GT begins around the midpoint of the 70th week, this could place the sealing of the 144,000 around the time of the midpoint of the 70th week. If the 144,000 were priests and Temple attendants around the time of the midpoint of the the 70th week, they would likely be killed by the AC if they resisted his setting himself up as god in God's Temple, as Daniel alludes to in Dan 11- 'His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the Temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who haave violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.'

In Rev 6 there is a group that has been numbered who are killed, the souls under the altar at the 5th seal- 'I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained....Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.'

In the past there has been some debate on why there would be souls 'under the altar' in heaven. If those souls were associated with Temple service on earth could they be symbolized as being 'under the altar'? Also these souls are seen under the altar and they then speak, perhaps coming out from under the altar, and are then given white robes, white robes being associated with the works of the saints later in Rev. These souls do not initially have robes but they are given later, perhaps suggesting a transition from the OT law, the altar, to accepting Christ, receiving the white robes?

This group also appears to be numbered as a certain number of fellow servants are to be slain as they were. The great multitude is described but cannot be numbered, the 144,000 are specifically numbered.

If the souls under the altar at the 5th seal are the 144,000, then the 5th seal would be occurring at the midpoint of the 70th week. The 6th and 7th seals would then occur after the midpoint of the 70th week, likely toward the end of the 70th week.

The 6th and 7th trumpets have some similarity to the 6th and 7th bowls, and the seals, trumpets and bowls all appear to end with the same event, the thunder, lightning, earthquake and hail. This would suggest the seals, trumpets and bowls would run in parallel to a certain extent, and not sequentially. The first 4 seals would occur prior to the midpoint, as would the first 4 trumpets, and the 5th seal and 5th trumpet would the likely occur around the midpoint. As the bowls describe the kingdom of the AC, which occurs at the midpoint of the 70th week and after, the bowls would occur only during the GT likely toward the end, as would also the 6th and 7th trumpets and seals.

If this is indeed true, we could soon see the first 4 seals and first 4 trumpets coming to pass.
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Re: The 144,000

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 am

The seals opening at the beginning of the 70th week would defiantly be a rude awakening.
Like everything is normal one day and then bam you wake up the next day to ww3, basically.

Like labor pains starting all the sudden.

I imagine it would be a very confusing time, the wars and destruction happening all at once.

When 9/11 happened, I had very little knowledge of the bible, and I remember everybody thinking it was the end of the world, and trying to make sense of it all. I remember going online and looking up the Nostradamus Prophecies, just looking for truth.

I feel like we need to be ready, in terms of knowing the scripture well. Because people are going to want answers, what does the bible say? And what are we going to say? "Uh if I remember right, revelations says...." Because that's when decisions are going to be made, decisions to follow Jesus, decisions to go to church, decisions to repent. When things are going bad, that's when people pray. The battle for every soul is fought in the mind, and people need to know the truth. The blind can't lead the blind and the confused can't lead the confused.

Jesus said be ready. Not just ready for heaven, for our own sake, but ready for the sake of others, ready to give an answer for the hope that lies in us.

For example, let's say they start building the temple next month, what do we say? I know it's prophecy fulfilled, but is it a good thing that they build the temple and start sacrificing again? Or do we condemn that because we believe in Jesus? What if Trump's peace plan involves a 3rd temple? Do we praise him for that?
Matthew 1:22
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Re: The 144,000

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:43 am

I don't know that we need to either approve or condemn. I think it's what is to be. If it arises because God wants His temple law kept, or if it arises because Israel wants it their way, I don't know.

As for the start of the 70th week, that's what I think, that everything will be going along just fine, then sudden destruction.

The seals opened, and government/society/economy/ecology all become hostile to man. Global earthquake collapses governments, economies, infrastructure. And out of the ashes . . . the beast stands up. It's OK, I've got this! Good!, they will say.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: The 144,000

Postby mark s on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:49 am

Souls under the altar = souls martyred/died under the covenant of the Law.

The church raptured (the innumerable multitude), the 144,00 are sealed to continue God's ministry in the earth.

After the 144,000 are in heaven, mid-week, angels take over the proclamation.

After this, it's just, blessed are those who die in the Lord. Nothing after that. It just all goes down from there. Those who believe, believe still, the other do not repent.

:eek:

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: The 144,000

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:58 pm

EC, It does appear from Zech 1 that God does want the Temple to be rebuilt (I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there my house will be rebuilt), but from Isa 2 and Zech 14 He also wants the nations to accept Jesus as Messiah and King and for Jesus to rule the earth from the Temple in Jerusalem- 'In the last days, the mountain of the Lord's Temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, 'Come, let us go up to mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us His ways..He will judge between nations..they will beat their swords into plowshares..nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.'Isa 2

From Zech 1 Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during the millenium and will be worshiped at the Feast of Tabernacles- 'Then the survivors of all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles.....every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them...'. The Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices will occur while Jesus rules as King, which would suggest that this is what God desires. Jesus has made sacrifices for sin null and void as He is the only relevant sacrifice for sin, but there are other sacrifices and offerings that do not involve atonement for sin, such as fellowship and thank offerings.

The Israeli desire to rebuild the Temple should not be discouraged, it does appear to please the Lord, but they do need to be encouraged to accept their true Messiah and Savior, Jesus the Christ, the Son of God the Father, which they will finally do when He returns at armageddon (Zech 12).
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Re: The 144,000

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:24 pm

1ww thanks,
Are u saying that the 3rd temple will be the one Jesus lives in during the millennium? or will there be a 4th one?

If the Jews are building that temple to make sacrifices for their sins, I would think God would not be pleased at all. But maybe some temple is better than no temple. Even if they're going about it completely wrong.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: The 144,000

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:26 pm

Mark, i would agree that the souls under the altar would be those under covenant law, those Jews who followed the covenant. But these souls, these Israelis, also have been killed, setting them apart, they would not appear to be all observant Jews from previous times as not all were killed, and there are still other Jewish brothers of theirs who will be killed at a future time. This would suggest someone is still observing the Covenant at the time of the 5th seal and afterwards. There appears to be a certain number determined to be killed in total that observe the covenant and that are then under the altar, limiting the size of the group in total.

If all the Jews who observed the Covenant and were killed from the time of the Old and New Testament until the present were under the Altar, it would seem likely that the full number would be quite large, approaching the size of a great multitude, too many to number. The souls under the altar appear to be a somewhat smaller group, one that can be and has been numbered.

Why number the 144,000?
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Re: The 144,000

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:28 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:1ww thanks,
Are u saying that the 3rd temple will be the one Jesus lives in during the millennium? or will there be a 4th one?



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Re: The 144,000

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:51 pm

EC, there will be a 3rd Temple built which the AC will set himself up in, as Paul describes in 2 Thess 2. But Paul calls that Temple 'God's Temple' in 2 Thess, suggesting that God's name is attached to it, it is considered His temple.

God's Temple has been built in the past and the Israeli people committed abominations in it, worshiped idols, did things that God considered detestable, yet the Temple itself was still considered God's Temple. God punished Israel and allowed the Temple to be destroyed but He later forgave them and He desired for the Temple to be rebuilt.

The Temple is evidence of God's presence among His people, it is a witness to the nations. In Rev God is described as being within His Temple in heaven, and the angels worship Him in His Temple, God considers the Temple in heaven His dwelling place, the place of His throne, the Temple on earth the place of His presence, His footstool. The only time the Temple is no longer in existence is in the New Jerusalem, 'I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its Temple'. Rev 21

The Temple is a Tabernacle, a temporary housing, a temporary place for the presence of the Lord until the Lord Himself is present in the midst of His people, dwelling among them face to face for all eternity.
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Re: The 144,000

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:16 am

So maybe the Jews rebuilding the temple can be likened to someone who is trying to get right with God by going to church, but yet they still haven't made any lifestyle changes, still practicing sin. Its a step in the right direction while they still aren't fully pleasing to God.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: The 144,000

Postby mark s on Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:53 am

1whowaits wrote:Mark, i would agree that the souls under the altar would be those under covenant law, those Jews who followed the covenant. But these souls, these Israelis, also have been killed, setting them apart, they would not appear to be all observant Jews from previous times as not all were killed, and there are still other Jewish brothers of theirs who will be killed at a future time. This would suggest someone is still observing the Covenant at the time of the 5th seal and afterwards. There appears to be a certain number determined to be killed in total that observe the covenant and that are then under the altar, limiting the size of the group in total.


Hi 1whowaits,

Yep, that's pretty much how I see it.

I see those who died under the covenant of law as equal to those Isrealites who will die for their faith during the 70th week.

If all the Jews who observed the Covenant and were killed from the time of the Old and New Testament until the present were under the Altar, it would seem likely that the full number would be quite large, approaching the size of a great multitude, too many to number. The souls under the altar appear to be a somewhat smaller group, one that can be and has been numbered.


That I don't know.

Why number the 144,000?


That I also don't know.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: The 144,000

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:11 pm

EC, i would agree with your point, Israel can rebuild the Temple in an attempt to please God, but until she accepts Christ, she is still in sin. God is ending the time of the hardening of Israel's heart as Paul described in Rom 11, so that Israel will eventually return to God fully and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But that returning to God and His Messiah will take a period of time, somewhere around 7 years sounds about right.
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