The State: Part I

(heavily moderated)

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:55 pm

brett wrote:Who is running the modern state of Israel now ST? This discussion thread is primarily about the the STATE of Israel whether its God's Israel or not. The Pharisees and those attacking Jesus were the LEADERS of Old Israel. Who runs modern Israel today? The common people or the Leaders and Authorities?

Correct! Good Point, so WHO set Up ancient Israel? Who brett? Did satan set it up? No, of course not, and there WAS a Part of the Remnant Alive and Well then TOO....BEFORE they Received Christ.
brett wrote:You have actually made the whole point of this discussion much clearer, modern Israel is run by Pharisees much like the Israel of old and makes all the decisions for modern Israel. The same way the Authorities of Old Israel were corrupt - the same is true today - those who run Israel are corrupt and therefore modern Israel is not God's Israel.

Glad you understand that, I realize that too....that changes Nothing as to WHO Ultimately Brought the Faithful Remnant Back into the land, to Fulfill God's Promise to them.

I don't care if there were only Four Faithful of them in 1947...God brought them Back.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:07 pm

shorttribber wrote:
The Ones that Do have Faith and Love for the True and Only God, but ignorantly still have not yet Understood the Gospel, Are the Ones Described by Paul.

They are the Jews Of the Promise (part of the remnant) that as of yet are still Not Christians, But Serve the SAME God.
As I said before, God knows them...and you don't, but you call them evil.

I call them Blessed, and known of God, The "Israel of God". And God HAS given them That Land according to the Abrahamic Promise.

Now who is Right, Romans 3:30, or you brett?


Any gentile who presently does not believe on Jesus but will in the future falls into a similar category - don't they? I used to be ignorant when I was younger - not believing on or knowing Christ. At that time I was being watched over by God wasn't I? Didn't God foreknow that I would believe upon His son? The same goes for you ST. There is no special category for a Jew who will believe in the future, they are the same as a gentile who will believe in the future.

Regarding the specific land of Israel being given to believers that came from Israel - I have no problem with that. The inheritance will be dished out when Jesus returns, not before that time. All Old testament saints will inherit their allotment - yes I agree with you - but that time is not now, for all the Old Testament saints - who did get saved - are not on this earth now and cannot receive their rightful inheritance yet.

Followers of Judaism are not heirs to the promise and worship a different God. 98% of Israel is non-Christian at present - so before Jesus returns the vast majority of them must be ejected to make room for those who have been granted land in Israel as an inheritance in the millennium.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:16 pm

shorttribber wrote:.......that changes Nothing as to WHO Ultimately Brought the Faithful Remnant Back into the land, to Fulfill God's Promise to them.

I don't care if there were only Four Faithful of them in 1947...God brought them Back.


I don't agree on this point. Only those who worship Jesus Christ will be brought back into the land in the millennium to receive their rightful inheritance - that's what I believe. Those that have returned today are not Christians - they are mostly followers of Judaism (another religion) and reject Jesus Christ. The percentage of believers in Israel is presently approx 2% - very low. I don't believe that figure will drastically improve. Rather I believe in the lead up to the millennium the vast majority of Judaism followers in modern Israel will be removed to make way for followers of Christ, probably many Old Testament saints.

Follows of Judaism are not heirs to the promise - only those who acknowledge the son are heirs.

.
Last edited by brett on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:19 pm

brett wrote:Any gentile who presently does not believe on Jesus but will in the future falls into a similar category - don't they?

Similar, yes, in that they both have Faith in God, yet unable to Exactly know WHO to worship and direct there faith toward.
The difference is, to NO Gentile Nation was the Oracles of God Committed. Do you not realize how that has made the Nation of Israel Different in that respect?

brett wrote:Regarding the specific land of Israel being given to believers that came from Israel - I have no problem with that. The inheritance will be dished out when Jesus returns, not before that time.


And right there is where the whole problem exists with your understanding. It is Your Prophetic TImeLine that Must Stand above All Other scriptures that oppose it.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:22 pm

brett wrote:Follows of Judaism are not heirs to the promise - only those who acknowledge the son are heirs.

Really, was Paul an Heir to the Promise before he was converted to Christ?

You better know that he was! And foreknown of God as an Heir!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:24 pm

shorttribber wrote:And right there is where the whole problem exists with your understanding. It is Your Prophetic TImeLine that Must Stand above All Other scriptures that oppose it.


I think that statement is a little harsh. I used to believe differently just 18+ months ago, I used to believe the Jews were God's people.

Rather I would say that when I learnt the truth about Zionism - then I changed my timeline - in fact then the prophetic mess I was trying to figure out became much clearer and I was able to better understand Bible prophecy - because I was able to remove the Zionist propaganda that had been confusing me.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:28 pm

shorttribber wrote:
brett wrote:Follows of Judaism are not heirs to the promise - only those who acknowledge the son are heirs.

Really, was Paul an Heir to the Promise before he was converted to Christ?

You better know that he was! And foreknown of God as an Heir!


ST the issue here is NUMBERS and PERCENTAGES. How many followers of Judaism (living in Israel now) will convert to Christianity before the return of Christ? I believe the percentage on converts will be low. Currently modern Israel has been in existence for many decades and the percentage of Christians hasn't increased much - its still only 2%. I don't believe it will ever change much in these Last Days - while sin abounds.

So imho the vast majority of Judaism followers who have migrated to Israel - imho will remain Judaism followers and will not convert. So they will not be heirs to the promise. So you gotta ask the question - was it God who brought them to Israel?

Anyway I gotta go now, God Bless, be back later..

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:33 pm

Lookingforacity wrote ...
It has been stated on FP by several members, including myself, that we believe that the modern (Zionist) state of Israel (here after called the State) is not God's gathering of His people back to the land, but of Satan. The first in a series, I hope to dispel the myths surrounding the State.


The problem I have with this statement is that you are equating the establishment of modern Israel with God's gathering his people back to the land.

The establishment of modern Israel was accomplished in one day. This is a historical fact.
Israel did not exist on May 13th, 1948, but existed on May 14th, 1948. This is a historical fact.

Your argument against this fact is based on the supposition that because the Jewish people being gathered back to Israel do not believe in Christ, they are not God's people, therefore, the modern nation of Israel cannot be the fulfillment of a prophecy that say the nation of Israel will be established in one day.

I am not concerned about whether one considers the Jewish people God's people or not. The fallacy in your logic is this assumption: if the Jewish people are not God's people then the establishment of the nation Israel in one day cannot fulfill the prophecy that says the nation Israel will be established in one day. And if the establishment of modern Israel does not fulfill that prophecy, then modern Israel cannot be God's Israel, therefore, it must be Satan's Israel.

Modern Israel was established in one day. This is a known historical fact.
Scripture prophecy says Israel will be again and the establishment of that Israel will take place in one day.
Scripture states a prophecy, history shows its fulfillment.

God said Israel will be established in one day.
Modern Israel was established in one day.

How about we just accept facts as facts and build our belief system on the facts instead denying facts because they don't fit into our belief system?


Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:02 pm

brett wrote:ST the issue here is NUMBERS and PERCENTAGES. How many followers of Judaism (living in Israel now) will convert to Christianity before the return of Christ? I believe the percentage on converts will be low.

Doesn't matter, percentages have nothing to do with it IMO. That's why they are called a "Remnant".
brett wrote:So imho the vast majority of Judaism followers who have migrated to Israel - imho will remain Judaism followers and will not convert.

I agree with that. And is also why I don't subscribe to a very common idea that is preached by the usage of "All Israel " shall be saved, referring to the Entire Jewish population.
brett wrote:So they will not be heirs to the promise.
Most of them, no....I agree there.
brett wrote:So you gotta ask the question - was it God who brought them to Israel?

I have already answered that when I said this....
shorttribber wrote:I don't care if there were only Four Faithful of them in 1947...God brought them Back.


Will talk more later....blessing to ya
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby Exit40 on Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:27 am

So who is this then ???

Zec 12:10 ¶
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 9053
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:28 am

Exit40 wrote:So who is this then ???

Zec 12:10 ¶
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


God Bless

David


One of the keys to the above verses is found in the Last verse of that chapter.....
Zech 12
14 All the families................. that remain,................... every family apart, and their wives apart.
.......................................................................................................................................
Now..........the New Testament equivelant

All the families That "Remain".........The "Remainder" of them (Brought through the fire ) , Those that are Alive and "Remain" unto the Coming of the Lord......The "Remnant".

.......................................................................................................................................
Those that are Alive and "Remain" Unto the Coming of the Lord.

Strong's #4035 Remain : perileipo (pronounced per-ee-li'-po)
from 4012 and 3007; to leave all around, i.e. (passively) survive:--remain
.
perileipō
1) to leave over
2) to remain over, to survive


Remnant...
Strong's #3062 Remnant: loipoy (pronounced loy-poy')
masculine plural of a derivative of 3007; remaining ones:--other, which remain, remnant

[/color], residue, rest.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
loipoi
1) remaining
, the rest
1a) the rest of any number or class under consideration
1b) with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Exit40 wrote:So who is this then ???

Zec 12:10 ¶
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


God Bless

David


This scripture refers to the FIRST coming of Jesus Christ. It has ZERO application to End times.This is an example of Zionist propaganda twisting scripture to get Americans to support the modern nation of Israel. They looked upon Jesus whom they had pierced when Jesus was crucified (at His first coming) and the Bible TELLS US when this was fulfilled.

John 19
.....
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
.....


The bible CLEARLY tells us that this is the fulfilment of zechariah 12:10 - no one can deny that the Bible itself declares THIS to be the fulfilment of that prophecy. Who are you going to believe? Zionists or the Bible?

Luke 23
26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.



Here we see proof of the great crowd of those who wept and mourned Christ's crucifixion. This is the Great mourning in Jerusalem that Zechariah was talking about. They wept over the death of Christ.....that makes so much sense when you think about it.....of course there would be prophecy in the Old Testament over that HUGE moment in history - the moment the Son of God would be crucified in Jerusalem for the sake of the whole world.

There is no End times application of this section of Zechariah - in fact all of Zechariah 12 is a chapter that Zionists have SEVERELY TWISTED for their own political agenda, to get the USA to support the setting up of modern Israel. This is an excellent example of the POWERFUL and DANGEROUS deception that the modern Zionists have spread to specifically serve their own political agenda. What really bothers me is the great effort and thought that has gone behind this deception. Its a level of deception of a mastermind genius - so many believe Zechariah 12 is about the End Times, but it's NOT.

Lastly consider further more of what Jesus said back to the weeping women:
"28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?


Something to think about.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:10 pm

brett wrote:This scripture refers to the FIRST coming of Jesus Christ. It has ZERO application to End times.

You may be right about that text......the only thing I will say is...the Remnant are the Mourners, it could only refer to them.

if that text does not have a further application to "THEY", regarding the Mourners in the future, I will be simply wrong about that part.

You may be right on that brett, very good point.

Just one thing to consider brett, when reading the words.....That the scripture might be fulfilled"...........
When reading Hosea 11:1 and Math 2:15 there is an unmistakable Near and far application to the same prophecy.

And this example in Zech 12 could very well end up the same way.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:43 pm

Brett,

I agree; I am pretty sure that Zachariah text is about the First coming of Christ.
And the remnant saved and discussed in the new testament are the ones who mourned.
Only those who believed, mourned.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:42 pm

Here's another point to be made ......

brett wrote:Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
................................14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


Hadadrimmon
is, according to the ordinary interpretation of (12:11) a place in the valley of Megiddo (a part of the plain of Esdraelon, six miles from Mount Carmel and eleven from Nazareth), where a national lamentation was held for the death of King Josiah. It was named after two Syrian idols.

The great crowd described in Luke 23 does not Rise to Complete/National lamentation.

I do not think it does...and therefore a Complete and Final Fulfillment of Those verses are yet future.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:46 pm

keithareilly wrote:Brett,

I agree; I am pretty sure that Zachariah text is about the First coming of Christ.
And the remnant saved and discussed in the new testament are the ones who mourned.
Only those who believed, mourned.

Keith


And the promises of Abraham extended only to the Israelites that mourned and believed upon Jesus. A curse was on the Authorities and leaders who actually ran the nation of Israel. So the nation of Israel was under a curse due to the leadership rejecting Jesus Christ - to the extent of killing Him. That's why the Temple was eventually destroyed and the nation removed in the days after Jesus departed.

Jump forward to modern Israel today and the picture is still the same - modern Israel is still under a curse because its run by corrupt politicians and authorities who exalt Judaism, they are the ones who are making the decisions and leading the nation, not the people. Nothing has really changed in terms of leadership, the modern nation of Israel's leadership is still like it was back at Jesus first coming, they still oppose the Gospel, they still promote their own religion "Judaism", they still reject Jesus Christ and embrace every western wickedness that they can coming from Babylon USA (sodom). Modern Israel could not exist without the USA (Babylon) and this is who they rely on, not God. That's why modern Israel boasts its the only democracy in the middle east, because America is a democracy. That's why modern Israel embraces homosexuality and has a renowned Gay Pride march of its own in Jerusalem, because America champions Gay rights, Israel is following America, not God.

Look at the Prime Minister of Israel stand with the LGBT community after the Orlando nightclub attack. When you watch this video, please remind yourself of the bibles account of Sodom and Gomorrah and how God dealt with this particular sin in the past. Modern Israel is nothing like the blessed Old Israel of the Old Testament (when it was right with God), which had laws to kill homosexuals, rather modern Israel is just another modern corrupted western democracy, with the Zionists behind this new modern nation brazenly exploiting the bible for their own political purposes. Modern Israel is not God's Israel, its just another secular nation in the middle east competing for survival. I believe modern Israel and Zionism could play a significant role in the Last Days deception.

https://youtu.be/3qLhrHGSgoE

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby Exit40 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:16 am

This is yet future, it has not yet occurred. Does Israel and the Jews represent Christ today ? You know the answer, so the Spirit of Grace and Supplication has not yet been poured out. So this proves the double, partial fulfillment of this Scripture.

Zec 12:10 ¶
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:..


THE SPIRIT OF GRACE AND SUPPLICATION

The ultimate goal of God for His people is more than just physical preservation, He is working toward their spiritual restoration. He wants to reveal Himself not only as their deliverer but as their Savior. Israel great need is to repent, to change their perception and attitude toward the Messiah, and then to receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior.


Continues

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 9053
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:54 am

Exit40 wrote:This is yet future, it has not yet occurred. Does Israel and the Jews represent Christ today ? You know the answer, so the Spirit of Grace and Supplication has not yet been poured out. So this proves the double, partial fulfillment of this Scripture.

Zec 12:10 ¶
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:..


THE SPIRIT OF GRACE AND SUPPLICATION

The ultimate goal of God for His people is more than just physical preservation, He is working toward their spiritual restoration. He wants to reveal Himself not only as their deliverer but as their Savior. Israel great need is to repent, to change their perception and attitude toward the Messiah, and then to receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior.


Continues

God Bless

David

:a3: been looking at this a lot more David. Those verses are not yet entirely fulfilled. Some of them fulfilled, but not all of them.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:28 pm

.
I believe you guys are both wishfully thinking here. The Bible says its been fulfilled already and you want to add on another future mythical fulfilment. There's actually no scriptural support for another future fulfilment, as much as you'd really like that to be the case, imho its just "making stuff up".

Zechariah 12 is not about the Last Days, its about that time when Israel was being rebuilt (after the 70 year exile in Babylon) and its about the first coming of Jesus Christ.

Zionist's have simply ADDED to the scriptures to serve their own political purposes. They have managed to DISTRACT the true focus of those scriptures - which are meant to be about JESUS CHRIST's first coming - not about "followers of Judaism" living in a future militarized democracy (mini USA) in the middle east.
.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:21 pm

brett wrote:.
I believe you guys are both wishfully thinking here. The Bible says its been fulfilled already and you want to add on another future mythical fulfilment. There's actually no scriptural support for another future fulfilment, as much as you'd really like that to be the case, imho its just "making stuff up".

Zechariah 12 is not about the Last Days, its about that time when Israel was being rebuilt and its about the first coming of Jesus Christ.

Zionist's have simply ADDED to the scriptures to serve their own political purposes. They have managed to DISTRACT the true focus of those scriptures - which are meant to be about JESUS CHRIST - not about Zionist Jews living in a future secular nation in the middle east.

.

Nobdy is adding anything to it brett.
The prophecy isn't complete, it's that simple.
I have given you proof of it within the text itself...there was not enough of a national and complete mourning of the faithful. Do you deny that?

Did you look at the twofold meaning of "Out of Egypt I have called my son? Hosea 11:1 and Math 2:15
it's very similar.

"They shall look on him who they pierced" is all that is quoted....and Some of Faithful Israel did, but not all of them brett.
The text of Zech 12 was not yet fulfilled completely....in part yes...but not completely.

Tell me brett when Jesus said this little part of Luke 4:18
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

and then He said.......

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

He did not do all those things on That 24 hour day did he? in other words, there was in fact a progressive fulfillment needed for that preaching and deliverance. Just as there is a progressive time for Israel's receiving Of that preaching and Mourning for their Rebellion.

It's not just wishful thinking on our part brett, it's a reality.

There was not a National Mourning as the mourning of Hadadrimmon .

That's what the text (Zech 12) describes, and that's not what occurred when Christ was crucified.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:45 pm

shorttribber wrote:
brett wrote:.
I believe you guys are both wishfully thinking here. The Bible says its been fulfilled already and you want to add on another future mythical fulfilment. There's actually no scriptural support for another future fulfilment, as much as you'd really like that to be the case, imho its just "making stuff up".

Zechariah 12 is not about the Last Days, its about that time when Israel was being rebuilt and its about the first coming of Jesus Christ.

Zionist's have simply ADDED to the scriptures to serve their own political purposes. They have managed to DISTRACT the true focus of those scriptures - which are meant to be about JESUS CHRIST - not about Zionist Jews living in a future secular nation in the middle east.

.

Nobdy is adding anything to it brett.
The prophecy isn't complete, it's that simple.
I have given you proof of it within the text itself...there was not enough of a national and complete mourning of the faithful. Do you deny that?

Did you look at the twofold meaning of "Out of Egypt I have called my son? Hosea 11:1 and Math 2:15
it's very similar.

"They shall look on him who they pierced" is all that is quoted....and Some of Faithful Israel did, but not all of them brett.
The text of Zech 12 was not yet fulfilled completely....in part yes...but not completely.

Tell me brett when Jesus said this little part of Luke 4:18
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

and then He said.......

"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

He did not do all those things on That 24 hour day did he? in other words, there was in fact a progressive fulfillment needed for that preaching and deliverance. Just as there is a progressive time for Israel's receiving Of that preaching and Mourning for their Rebellion.

It's not just wishful thinking on our part brett, it's a reality.

There was not a National Mourning as the mourning of Hadadrimmon .

That's what the text (Zech 12) describes, and that's not what occurred when Christ was crucified.


So there's a specific number of people that's required for the classification of a "National Morning" is there?
Whose counting? Do the scriptures bother count the people? This is ridiculous ST, Zechariah describes it as a "Great mourning" - "as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon" - which is saying its LIKE that other mourning (in terms of its significance). This doesn't mean the mourning at Christ's death had to EXACTLY meet all the same criteria of the Hadadrimmon mourning, it was just similar. Do you think scripture is saying that the numbers of people mourning must be EXACTLY the same? Of course not. Or that the 2 mournings must be identical in every aspect? Of course not. Why are you carrying on with such a ridiculous argument? ........ :roll:

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:32 pm

brett wrote: Do you think scripture is saying that the numbers of people mourning must be EXACTLY the same? Of course not. Or that the 2 mournings must be identical in every aspect? Of course not. Why are you carrying on with such a ridiculous argument? ........


Think of it as ridiculous if you wish. it's not, Zech 12 included Everybody brett not just the daughters of Jerusalem and a great crowd.

Do you know the difference between what may be considered a "Multitude" and a "Great crowd" brett?


Mathew 27
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered .........all......... the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

What I'm saying is not ridiculous, it's Factual.


You also didn't give an answer about the Luke 4 or the Hosea 11:1/Math25 example either.
progressive fulfillment of prophecy is not ridiculous, it's factual.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:39 pm

shorttribber wrote:
brett wrote: Do you think scripture is saying that the numbers of people mourning must be EXACTLY the same? Of course not. Or that the 2 mournings must be identical in every aspect? Of course not. Why are you carrying on with such a ridiculous argument? ........


Think of it as ridiculous if you wish. it's not, Zech 12 included Everybody brett not just the daughters of Jerusalem and a great crowd.

Do you know the difference between what may be considered a "Multitude" and a "Great crowd" brett?


Mathew 27
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered .........all......... the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

What I'm saying is not ridiculous, it's Factual.


You also didn't give an answer about the Luke 4 or the Hosea 11:1/Math25 example either.
progressive fulfillment of prophecy is not ridiculous, it's factual.


In this case what you're arguing about Zech 12 is ridiculous imho. I can't be bothered discussing the other scriptures because its just going to be a waste of time. This Zech 12 scripture is clear and simple enough to not need the discussion to drift onto other scriptures.

On this one I think you're grasping at straws ST..

.
Last edited by brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:53 pm

Are you even reading my posts brett?

The scripture was not entirely fulfilled.

Was Luke 4 fulfilled on that One 24 hour day brett?

it may be you that is hanging on to your opinion too tightly.

I first thought you could be correct, and I willingly admitted it, until I searched just a bit more. You could do that to.



But I do understand time constraints
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm

.
ST you are complicating the scripture when you need not complicate it. You are turning a little scripture into an entire doctrine of multiple fulfilments of prophecy.

I disagree with you.

This Zechariah scripture is a simple statement that the mourning at Christs death was significant like the mourning in Hadadrimmon. That's it - they were both BIG & SIGNIFICANT mourning events the had great impact on the people. That's the point. End of story.

To prove the point further - consider the scriptures that follow - describing the ACTUAL families mourning. In Jesus day many in Israel still knew what tribe they were from. That's why it mentions the mournings of the families and tribes, because it that day it was still known. In modern days (NOW) - NO ONE knows what tribe they are from or their family line etc.... It even describes the mourning as every family being APART - which sounds to me like a private mourning.

I'm not discussing this anymore - I'm going to do work now. I'll be back later.

God Bless.

.
Last edited by brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:07 pm

brett wrote:ST you are complicating the scripture when you need not complicate it. You are turning a little scripture into an entire doctrine of multiple fulfilments of prophecy.I disagree with you.

Then we agree to disagree. I don't think this one scripture comes even close to proving your point though brett.

either way...talk later
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:11 pm

shorttribber wrote:
brett wrote:ST you are complicating the scripture when you need not complicate it. You are turning a little scripture into an entire doctrine of multiple fulfilments of prophecy.I disagree with you.

Then we agree to disagree. I don't think this one scripture comes even close to proving your point though brett.

either way...talk later


I don't even remember what original point I was trying to prove. :eek: :grin:
The discussion is getting a little "nuts" now.
I think I've made the same point enough times already - whatever it was. :wink: :grin:

God Bless
.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:20 pm

:itsgood:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:29 pm

Brett,

I agree those Jews who did not believe were cursed; the nation was cursed,
The owner of the vineyard destroyed ancient Israel. I don't think any of have any arguments with that.

Where I think we disagree is that the return of the Jews to Israel represents the coming end of that curse.
It means fullness of the gentiles is almost complete.

We are witnessing God realigning Himself with the Jewish people.
This will result in faith in God and eventually faith in Christ.

It is for these reasons I think calling the nation Israel Satan's nation is absolutely incorrect.
It is God who establishes nations, not Satan. Very bad mistake to think Satan has the authority to setup any nation.

Doubt this? Go back and read the book of Job. Satan had to abide by God's limits.
Satan was not allowed to do anything unless God first authorized it.
Just as serpents and scorpions had to obey the disciples and flee from them.
It is a huge mistake to think Satan is not subject to God or that Satan operates outside God's authority.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:43 pm

keithareilly wrote:We are witnessing God realigning Himself with the Jewish people. This will result in faith in God and eventually faith in Christ.It is for these reasons I think calling the nation Israel Satan's nation is absolutely incorrect.It is God who establishes nations, not Satan. Very bad mistake to think Satan has the authority to setup any nation.Doubt this? Go back and read the book of Job. Satan had to abide by God's limits.Satan was not allowed to do anything unless God first authorized it.Just as serpents and scorpions had to obey the disciples and flee from them.It is a huge mistake to think Satan is not subject to God or that Satan operates outside God's authority.

:banana: :a3: :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:15 pm

keithareilly wrote:It is God who establishes nations, not Satan. Very bad mistake to think Satan has the authority to setup any nation.


And the argument usually goes.


Oh! But satan has been given the authority over the nations...it happened because he has the Title Deed! :laugh:

:laugh: Remember , here's the scripture to prove that :laugh:

Luke 4
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.


And ya know Keith...satan was telling the truth then....he tells the truth sometimes ya know :laugh:

Guess I shouldn't be laughing...but talk about ridiculous nonsense!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:19 pm

.
Whose coming first? Jesus Christ or the Anti-Christ?

Modern Israel is being setup for the Anti-Christ not Jesus Christ.

Won't the Anti-Christ have power over all peoples, tongues and nations? Isn't he empowered by satan to do this? Isn't it the Dragon that gives the AC (Beast) its Great power and authority - that causes all the world to worship him? Forget about satan having power over a single nation - he will have power & authority over the entire earth when the Anti-Christ rules for 42 months.

That's what makes the "Great Tribulation" even possible.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:36 pm

brett wrote:Whose coming first? Jesus Christ or the Anti-Christ?

The Loser First
brett wrote:Modern Israel is being setup for the Anti-Christ not Jesus Christ.

Everybody is being "setup" for the Loser, not just Israel
brett wrote:Won't the Anti-Christ have power over all peoples, tongues and nations? Isn't he empowered by satan to do this? Isn't it the Dragon that gives the AC (Beast) its Great power and authority - that causes all the world to worship him? Forget about satan having power over a single nation - he will have power & authority over the entire earth when the Anti-Christ rules for 42 months.

No. he won't. his authority will be limited against the Elect....the Loser will only have power over our bodies..to kill and destroy. And even that will be limited, based on God's power to protect or not protect according to His Will.
The Loser will be GIVEN the Authority FROM God to do this or that then....it's not the loser's choice...it's ALWAYS God's Choice.

Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11........... And they overcame him............... by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because....... he knoweth......... that ......he hath... but a short time.
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:44 pm

shorttribber wrote:No. he won't. his authority will be limited against the Elect....the Loser will only have power over our bodies..to kill and destroy. And even that will be limited, based on God's power to protect or not protect according to His Will.
The Loser will be GIVEN the Authority FROM God to do this or that then....it's not the loser's choice...it's ALWAYS God's Choice.


God is perfectly able to allow satan to setup modern Israel. The same way God is perfectly able to allow the AC to have dominion over all the earth.

You guys seem to be saying that there is no way possible that satan could setup modern Israel - I'm saying there is a way - and that way is God allowing satan to do it. The same way God will allow the AC to rule over the whole earth. Yes there are limits - but there is no limit that says "satan can NEVER setup a nation or nations or global government (the biggest nation possible)". Satan is the one who will setup the Beast Empire, God will allow it - God is allowing it right now. The Beast Empire will be a global government over the entire earth - you can't get a bigger nation than that. So if God is allowing satan to setup a global government over the entire earth (the biggest type of nation that could ever exist) - of course God would allow satan to setup other nations and peoples to serve this bigger agenda.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:54 pm

Hello

Can I be permitted to add my couple of rupees worth of agreement with what David originally posted from Zechariah. I would agree with him that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. In Luke 14:25ff Christ speak about the cause and the effects of Israel on the other nations around them and the ensuring battle that Christ directly becomes involved in and during that battle between Christ and the nations being judged at Armageddon, Israel will seek to know from the King of the winning army what His terms of peace is for them.

Luke 14:25-33: - 25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it — 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

In Hebrews 12:22-24 we are told the following: -
Hebrews 12:22-24: - 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 23 to Jesus the Mediator of the newer covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

which confirms that Jesus is the one who gives the terms of the newer form of the original Mt Sinai Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation Covenant during the battle spoken about in Luke 14:31-32.

Christ then goes on to give a warning to all of Israel: -
Luke 14:34-3; - Tasteless Salt Is Worthless
(Matt 5:13; Mark 9:50)

34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"


The above passage from Luke 14 dovetails into the Zechriaih 12 passage that David had quoted.

It is still a future event, probably within the next 20-30 years.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1531
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:03 pm

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:It is God who establishes nations, not Satan. Very bad mistake to think Satan has the authority to setup any nation.


And the argument usually goes.


Oh! But satan has been given the authority over the nations...it happened because he has the Title Deed! :laugh:

:laugh: Remember , here's the scripture to prove that :laugh:

Luke 4
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.


And ya know Keith...satan was telling the truth then....he tells the truth sometimes ya know :laugh:

Guess I shouldn't be laughing...but talk about ridiculous nonsense!


Indeed, Satan was telling the truth. So, Who delivered that power to Satan?
Satan says very clearly it was delivered to him. He did not earn it. How was it that Satan obtain this power?

So again I say to the readers, Satan can do nothing without God's authorization.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:08 pm

.
This discussion is about modern Israel - I'm saying its a real possibility that God allowed satan to setup modern Israel.

2 Thessalonians 2
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



.
Last edited by brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:10 pm

keithareilly wrote:Indeed, Satan was telling the truth. So, Who delivered that power to Satan?Satan says very clearly it was delivered to him. He did not earn it. How was it that Satan obtain this power?So again I say to the readers, Satan can do nothing without God's authorization.


Guess you didn't get the point.
No, keith, he was lying.....he did not have that power then, nor does he have it now.

Kinda thought you had a handle on that.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:11 pm

brett wrote:.
This discussion is about modern Israel - I'm saying its a real possibility that God allowed satan to setup modern Israel.

2 Thessalonians 2
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


.


Well, I am glad you finally get that Israel would not exist without God's authorization.
Which means it exists because God has a purpose for modern Israel.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:15 pm

.
The 2 Thessalonians 2 scripture even tells us the purpose of God allowing such things. And consider the coming lying wonders that satan will perform :

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This sounds like it might be a counterfeit of what Elijah did in Israel. Something it sounds like would be performed in modern Israel as a counterfeit miracle in support of "modern Israel" and the AC being the messiah. Think about it, it all sounds very much like it fits with Judaism.

And consider the starting up again of "sacrifices and offerings" again too - I think Judaism could be at the heart of the deception.

.
Last edited by brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:17 pm

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Indeed, Satan was telling the truth. So, Who delivered that power to Satan?Satan says very clearly it was delivered to him. He did not earn it. How was it that Satan obtain this power?So again I say to the readers, Satan can do nothing without God's authorization.


Guess you didn't get the point.
No, keith, he was lying.....he did not have that power then, nor does he have it now.

Kinda thought you had a handle on that.


No shorttrib,
I don't have a problem with God using Satan for His divine purposes.
We know God turned all men over to sin.
God gave laws to ancient Israel; laws that grant power to Sin. So God granted Sin rule.
Christ was predestined to die before the world was founded; before Adam sinned, before Satan tempted Eve.

What does all this mean?
It means Satan is part of the plan and has his uses. Just like Pharoah.
Still, Satan can do nothing more than what God authorizes Satan to do.

And I don't mind addressing this argument, even as a joke. It needs to be addressed.



Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:21 pm

brett wrote:.
The 2 Thessalonians 2 scripture even tells us the purpose of God allowing such things. And consider the coming lying wonders that satan will perform :

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This sounds like it might be a counterfeit of what Elijah did in Israel. Something it sounds like would be performed in modern Israel as a counterfeit miracle in support of "modern Israel" and the AC being the messiah. Think about it, it all sounds very much like it serves Judaism.

And consider the starting up again of "sacrifices and offerings" again too - I think Judaism could be at the heart of the deception.

.


Brett,

Satan has his agenda God has his agenda.
Israel exists today because God wants it to exist.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:28 pm

keithareilly wrote:Brett,

Satan has his agenda God has his agenda.
Israel exists today because God wants it to exist.

Keith


Ok - so do you accept the possibility that modern Israel could exist today to be part of the powerful delusion God is sending? We know Jerusalem will be a central focus of many events that happen in the Last Days. I believe there's a real possibility that God has allowed satan to setup modern Israel as part of the Last Days deception.

.
Last edited by brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:28 pm

keithareilly wrote:
brett wrote:.
The 2 Thessalonians 2 scripture even tells us the purpose of God allowing such things. And consider the coming lying wonders that satan will perform :

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

This sounds like it might be a counterfeit of what Elijah did in Israel. Something it sounds like would be performed in modern Israel as a counterfeit miracle in support of "modern Israel" and the AC being the messiah. Think about it, it all sounds very much like it serves Judaism.

And consider the starting up again of "sacrifices and offerings" again too - I think Judaism could be at the heart of the deception.

.


Brett,

Satan has his agenda God has his agenda.
Israel exists today because God wants it to exist.

Keith


:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:53 pm

Brett wrote,

Ok - so do you accept the possibility that modern Israel could exist today to be part of the powerful delusion God is sending? We know Jerusalem will be a central focus of many events that happen in the Last Days. I believe there's a real possibility that God has allowed satan to setup modern Israel as part of the Last Days deception.


Actually I think modern Israel exists to shed light, particularly, on the deception, Islam.
Israel's very existance argues the Quran is nothing but a great big lie.
Now, I also think this will result in wars that show God's glory as prophesied during the End Times.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:56 pm

keithareilly wrote:Brett wrote,

Ok - so do you accept the possibility that modern Israel could exist today to be part of the powerful delusion God is sending? We know Jerusalem will be a central focus of many events that happen in the Last Days. I believe there's a real possibility that God has allowed satan to setup modern Israel as part of the Last Days deception.


Actually I think modern Israel exists to shed light, particularly, on the deception, Islam.
Israel's very existance argues the Koran is a great lie.

Keith


Or you could say that many Christians have developed an EXAGGERATED hatred of muslims because of Zionist propaganda. I consider not enough is done to reach out to muslims with the gospel because too many Christians simply hate muslims. Judaism rejects Jesus Christ just as much as islam, yet Christians embrace Jews and pretty much consider them God's people - even with them rejecting Jesus Christ. There is a huge problem here and its all to do with Zionist propaganda in the USA. I've mentioned it before how Christians are fine with Iranians being killed but they are not ok with Jews being killed. This is the result of Zionist propaganda always pushing the narrative that muslims are bad, terrorists etc. etc. God desires muslims to be saved just as much as jews ...... there is no favouritism with God. Christians will even hate Palestinian Christians - because they are "Palestinian".

I find this very weird .... very disturbing and morally wrong.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:07 pm

Brett,

I edited my post to include that the nation Israel will also precipitate end time wars.
So, Yes, Israel exists as part of End Time prophecy.

Islam is a lie that hides the truth that Christ came and died to reveal.
I do not hate muslims.

Yet, I understand the lie that Islam is and how that lie promotes enslavement instead of the freedom Christ's knowledge grants mankind. It might be that both Muslims and Jews that adhere to law will kill each other. And those Jews who see Islam as an enslavement might also see Judaism's enslaving and Christ's Freedom. And that process might work in the same way for Muslims who see Judeaism's enslaveing then see Islam's enslaving.

We shall see.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1985
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:08 pm

brett wrote:Or you could say that many Christians have developed an EXAGGERATED hatred of muslims because of Zionist propaganda.



You may look at the following information as Zionist propaganda, but I look at it more as proof of Reality.....


........................Posting this from a very good page of info, not a list I personally made....................




.............................................................................................................................

The blessing that Jews have been on humanity (URL)


Let's compare the "People of the Book" as Muslims refer to Jews and Christians, to Muhammad's followers, in terms of Nobel Prizes, to get a little better understanding of how Jews have indeed been a blessing on "all families of the earth" while Muhammad's true orthodox followers have been the exact opposite - a curse and scourge on mankind.


The Global Islamic population is approximately 1.5 billion, or about 25% of the world's population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:


Literature:

1988 - Najib Mahfooz


Peace:

1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat

1994 - Yaser Arafat:

1999 - Ahmed Zewai


Economics: (zero)


Physics: (zero)


Medicine:

1960 - Peter Brian Medawar


Chemistry:

1999 - Ahmed Hassan Zewail


TOTAL 6 (with half of them for so-called "peace" even including one awarded to the Islamic terrorist Yasar Arafat!)


The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000 or about 2/10 of 1% of the world's population, yet they compose 22% of all individual recipients of Nobel Prizes worldwide, between 1901 and 2009 including:


Literature: 10

1910 - Paul Heyse

1927 - Henri Bergson

1958 - Boris Pasternak

1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon

1966 - Nelly Sachs

1976 - Saul Bellow

1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer

1981 - Elias Canetti

1987 - Joseph Brodsky

1991 - Nadine Gordimer World


Peace: 8

1911 - Alfred Fried

1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser

1968 - Rene Cassin

1973 - Henry Kissinger

1978 - Menachem Begin

1986 - Elie Wiesel

1994 - Shimon Peres

1994 - Yitzhak Rabin


Physics: 53

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer

1906 - Henri Moissan

1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson

1908 - Gabriel Lippmann

1910 - Otto Wallach

1915 - Richard Willstaetter

1918 - Fritz Haber

1921 - Albert Einstein

1922 - Niels Bohr

1925 - James Franck

1925 - Gustav Hertz

1943 - Gustav Stern

1943 - George Charles de Hevesy

1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi

1952 - Felix Bloch

1954 - Max Born

1958 - Igor Tamm

1959 - Emilio Segre

1960 - Donald A. Glaser

1961 - Robert Hofstadter

1961 - Melvin Calvin

1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau

1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz

1965 - Richard Phil lips Feynman

1965 - Julian Schwinger

1969 - Murray Gell-Mann

1971 - Dennis Gabor

1972 - William Howard Stein

1973 - Brian David Joseph son

1975 - Benjamin Mottleson

1976 - Burton Richter

1977 - Ilya Prigogine

1978 - Arno Allan Penzias

1978 - Peter L Kapitza

1979 - Stephen Weinberg

1979 - Sheldon Glashow

1979 - Herbert Charles Brown

1980 - Paul Berg

1980 - Walter Gilbert

1981 - Roald Hoffmann

1982 - Aaron Klug

1985 - Albert A. Hauptman

1985 - Jerome Karle

1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach

1988 - Robert Huber

1988 - Leon Lederman

1988 - Melvin Schwartz

1988 - Jack Steinberger

1989 - Sidney Altman

1990 - Jerome Friedman

1992 - Rudolph Marcus

1995 - Martin Perl

2000 - Alan J. Heeger


Economics: 13

1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson

1971 - Simon Kuznets

1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow

1975 - Leonid Kantorovich

1976 - Mil ton Friedman

1978 - Herb ert A. Simon

1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein

1985 - Franco Modigliani

1987 - Robert M. Solow

1990 - Harry Markowitz

1990 - Merton Miller

1992 - Gary Becker

1993 - Robert Fogel


Medicine: 43

1908 - Elie Metchnikoff

1908 - Paul Erlich

1914 - Robert Barany

1922 - Otto Meyerhof

1930 - Karl Landsteiner

1931 - Otto Warburg

1936 - Otto Loewi

1944 - Joseph Erlanger

1944 - Herb ert Spencer Gasser

1945 - Ernst Boris Chain

1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller

1950 - Tadeus Reichstein

1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman

1953 - Hans Krebs

1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann

1958 - Joshua Lederberg

1959 - Arthur Kornberg

1964 - Konrad Bloch

1965 - Francois Jacob

1965 - Andre Lwoff

1967 - George Wald

1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg

1969 - Salvador Luria

1970 - Julius Axelrod

1970 - Sir Bernard Katz

1972 - Gerald Maurice Ed elman

1975 - Howard Martin Temin

1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg

1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow

1978 - Daniel Nathans

1980 - Baruj Benacerraf

1984 - Cesar Milstein

1985 - Michael Stuart Brown

1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein

1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]

1988 - Gertrude Elion

1989 - Harold Varmus

1991 - Erwin Neher

1991 - Bert Sakmann

1993 - Richard J. Roberts

1993 - Phillip Sharp

1994 - Alfred Gilman

1995 - Ed ward B. Lewis


Chemistry: 24

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer

1906 - Henri Moissan

1910 - Otto Wallach

1915 - Richard Willstaetter

1918 - Fritz Haber

1943 - George Charles de Hevesy

1961 - Melvin Calvin

1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz

1972 - William Howard Stein

1977 - Ilya Prigogine

1979 - Herbert Charles Brown

1980 - Paul Berg

1980 - Walter Gilbert

1981 - Roald Hoffmann

1982 - Aaron Klug

1985 - Herbert Hauptman

1985 - Jerome Karle

1989 - Sidney Altman

1992 - Rudolph Marcus

1998 - Walter Kohn

2004 - Avram Hershko, Aaron Ciechanover and Irwin Rose

2006 - Roger Kornberg


TOTAL: 151


From Wikipedia: "Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most developed sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world.[44] Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity, as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens. Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population.[45]


Israeli scientists have contributed to the advancement of agriculture, computer sciences, electronics, genetics, medicine, optics, solar energy and various fields of engineering. Israel is home to major players in the high-tech industry and has one of the world's most technologically-literate populations.[46] In 1998, Tel Aviv was named by Newsweek as one of the ten most technologically-influential cities in the world.[47]"


There are only two sides in conflict. That of our God-given rights to freedom, liberty and self-determination protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State VS the promise of just another Middle East, iron-fisted, totalitarian, oppressive, sharia law ruled, little girl circumcising, multiple wife and concubine beating, Christian and Jew beheading, "apostate" murdering, free speech murdering, Islamic slave state.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The State: Part I

Postby brett on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:09 pm

.
Someone tell me what Judaism believes about Jesus Christ please.

.
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
brett
 
Posts: 2123
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:33 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:12 pm

brett wrote:.
Someone tell me what Judaism believes about Jesus Christ please.

.

I thought you knew already, I thought we all did.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5400
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

PreviousNext

Return to Prophecy Debate Area

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest