The State: Part I

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The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:51 pm

It has been stated on FP by several members, including myself, that we believe that the modern (Zionist) state of Israel (here after called the State) is not God's gathering of His people back to the land, but of Satan. The first in a series, I hope to dispel the myths surrounding the State.

There are many controversial questions regarding the founding of the State. Here are some basic ones:

#1: How does God gather His people? Will He gather them in unbelief? Does He gather them all in one day? Or is it a long process spanning over 100 years?
#2: Does God gather His people all at one time? Or does He exclusively gather the Jews (House/tribe of Judah) first, then gather the House of Israel later?
#3: Why does God refer to the Jews in Rev. 2:9 as the "Synagogue of Satan"?
#4: Why does Rev. 11:8 refer to Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt"?
#5: Why would the 2 witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 years while people there try/want to kill them?
#6: If God gathered the Jews to the State, why would He allow the Rothschilds to build the Knesset and Israeli Supreme Court Building filled with Illuminati symbols and Masonic meaning?
#7: When God gathers His children, are they immediately safe and secure? Does God immediately begin His rule? Or must they struggle for their existence for decades? Do they require financial aid to exist? Do they require a huge military aid package from other countries to defend themselves? Do they gain possession of the land, i.e. Jerusalem and Gaza, only later to have to give some up to enemies?
#8: When God gathers His people in the last of days, must they first cleanse the land of people with war and terrorism?

These questions should be enough to raise the slightest doubt. I believe we actually know most of the answers but have been taught to ignore and avoid them.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:02 pm

So, will God gather His people back to the land in unbelief?

Deut. 6:17-18
17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.
18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers


Deut. Chapter 30
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


Ezekiel 13:8-9
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.


Jeremiah 29:13-14
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.


Micah 4:6-7
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:31 pm

Isaiah 66:7-9
7 “Before she travailed, she brought forth;
Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy. 8 “Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be [d]born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons. 9 “Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?” says the Lord. “Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?” says your God.


This prophecy was fulfilled in 1948.
Israel was established as a nation. After it was establish, then war broke out with the Arab countries.
Thus we have "Before she travailed, she brought forth."

Nations wage wars of independance, once they win, a new nation is born.
Not so with Israel; Israel first became a nation, then suffered the pangs of birth (war).
This is done so that all men know this is God's will, not man's will.


Ezekial 37:21-23
21 Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their [g]dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

This prophecy is still happening today. The Jews are being gathered from the nations back to their own land.
Expect Anti-Semitism to continue to rise thus completing this prophecy.
Once returned, then they will be delivered from all their sin, cleansed, and they will be God's people.

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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:39 pm

keithareilly wrote:
This prophecy was fulfilled in 1948.
Israel was established as a nation. After it was establish, then war broke out with the Arab countries.
Thus we have "Before she travailed, she brought forth."

Nations wage wars of independance, once they win, a new nation is born.
Not so with Israel; Israel first became a nation, then suffered the pangs of birth (war).
This is done so that all men know this is God's will, not man's will.


Keith, This is a perfect example of the myths surrounding the establishment of the State. With a little research, you will find that the "travailing" also came BEFORE 1948 and the war was not for "independence". I plan to address all this in the next post when I examine the Balfour Declaration and the time leading up to 1948.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:09 pm

Lookingforacity Wrote...

Keith, This is a perfect example of the myths surrounding the establishment of the State. With a little research, you will find that the "travailing" also came BEFORE 1948 and the war was not for "independence". I plan to address all this in the next post when I examine the Balfour Declaration and the time leading up to 1948.


I am aware of the rebellions of the Jews against the British Empire who occupied the territory prior to the Partition Resolution. Nevertheless, the British did not loose a war with the Jews. Consequently, it cannot be said the Jews won their independence through war. Instead, Israel became a nation through UN Resolution 181 which passed on November 29, 1947. It did not take effect until May 14th, 1948.

Conflicts between Palestinian groups and the Jews occurred prior to May 14th, 1948. However, these conflicts are not on the scale of war. War did not breakout until after rule transitioned from the British Empire to the Nation Israel. Why? Because the Arabs did not want to go to war with Britain, so they waited until the territory was no longer British territory, then they waged war.

As you said, the Arab-Israeli War of 1948 was not for independence. It was an attempt to crush an already born nation, Israel. Thus do we have: first the birth, then the pangs.

On a side note: Satan trying to kill off the born child is consistent with Satan's past strategies. This can be found in the story of Moses, Pharaoh killing off the first born, and of Christ's birth, Herod killing off the male children 2 years and under. Satan always tries to kill the new born; for he knows the new born is critical to accomplishing God's plan.



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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Jericho on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:22 pm

Rather than answering this one directly, I’ll just give my rebuttal to the common objects to the nation-state of Israel. I’ve had many similar discussions like these before, and I think one’s views on Israel largely depend upon their eschatological views. There are other factors, my experience is that those who hold negative views toward Israel generally fall in one or more categories: they are into conspiracy theories, they subscribe to anti-Jewish\anti-Israel propaganda, they believe in Replacement Theology.

So the biggest reason I believe the nation-state of Israel is important is because of prophecy. In Gen 15:18-21 and Gen 17:7-8 God gives the land to Abraham and his descendants. The import thing to note is the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional, unlike the Mosaic convent which was conditional in order for them to retain continuous control of the land.

It was prophesied that the Jews would be scattered and persecuted (Deu 28:64-66). This was due to their repeated disobedience of the Mosaic covenant. It culminated with the destruction of the Second Temple, and the scattering of the Jews worldwide.

It was prophesied the Jews would be re-gathered (Eze 11:17, Jer 31:10) and that they would become a nation again in one day (Eze 11:17, Isa 66:8, Eze 36:8, Eze 36:24, Eze 37). It cannot be denied that is exactly what happened in 1948 when Israel became a nation in one day. And would we expect the Jews to be regathered in this day and age and not become a state?

It was prophesied that Israel would be besieged by enemies (Ezekiel 38-39, Isaiah 17, Psalm 83, Zechariah 12, 14), but that they would survive against all odds (Amos 9:15). It cannot be denied this happened, and I would like someone to explain to me how without divine intervention.

I want to pause for a minute to ponder on the improbability of all this. Jews spread to every corner of the globe, but managed to retain their unique Jewish identity without a homeland. That just doesn’t happen. In America, for instance, those of us who are three generations or more removed no longer speak the language or practice the customs of our ancestral homeland. Then the Jews return to their ancestral homelands after 2000 years. Again, that has never happened. Just a century prior it was preposterous. They revive their dead language to become the common language of the land (Zep 3:9), the first time a dead language has ever been successfully revived. The once arid desert started to bloom, another prophecy fulfilled (Isa 35:1, Eze 36:35). They go from nothing to become a prosperous nation despite terrorism, wars, and boycotts. Statically Israel should not have lasted a week, and yet… Just one of those things would be a coincidence, altogether they are a miracle.

A secondary reason is that the world is against Israel. We have just witnessed an overwhelmingly vote at the UN against the US moving its embassy to Jerusalem because it further legitimizes Israel. Is there no doubt the world, by and large, is against Israel? You have the UN, Muslims, Leftists, globalists, Anti-Semites, Code Pink, the BDS movement, the Universities, etc. all against Israel. Incidentally, they also hate Christians. Sure they have Trump on their side, for now, but he’s a rarity. His predecessor, on the other hand, was vehemently against Israel. And who is the god of this world? Satan (2 Cr 4:4), who has the whole world is under his control (1Jo 5:19). So, the litmus test for me is who does the world hate? That is a pretty good indication of who you should align yourself with.

I also don’t subscribe to the conspiracy theories that Israel is some nefarious Jewish or satanic plot as some have asserted. And there are countless Jewish conspiracies. During the middle-ages, Jews were blamed for everything from the black plague, poisoning wells, to kidnapping children. Hitler blamed the Jews for conspiring with the Communists. Stalin blamed them for conspiring to murder Soviet leaders, and on and on. This has led to numerous pogroms in Europe and the middle-east. See the pattern? Jewish conspiracies lead to anti-Semitism, and eventually deaths. Such hatred for the Jews can only be understood in spiritual terms. As for Israel, Let’s consider this. If Israel is some conspiracy then why is so much of the world against them? Why are prominent Jews like George Soros and Henry Kissinger against Israel? Why is the UN against them?

I see the nation-state of Israel as a means to an end. It’s not meant to endure forever, but it allows for end-time events to be fulfilled, culminating in Christ’s return. For example, Jerusalem could not become a burdensome stone until Israel became a nation. Nor was the land important for the 400 years the Ottoman Turks controlled it. But since Israel became a nation it has become a focal point for the world. It is the most contested plot of land on the planet. This is prophetically important. That doesn’t imply that Israel is perfect or that they can do no wrong. Israel is a secular nation and has the same sins and vices as the rest of the world. But He is bringing them back in spite of this, for His names sake, so that we will know that He is God, and to keep His promises.

I do think the biggest objection some Christians have toward Israel/Jews is due to the current spiritual condition of the Jews. Except for a small minority, most Jews are either secular atheists or Orthodox Jews who don’t believe in Jesus. And of course, we know what the despicable things the Talmud has to say about Jesus. My response is what’s new? From the moment they left Egypt they were in constant rebellion against God. That is the whole entire theme of the Old Testament. And of course the New Testament is all about the Jews rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, which is still true today. On the latter part, we know they have been blinded in part so the rest of us could be grafted in. Otherwise, Christianity would have remained an insular religion like Judaism, and probably disappeared a long time ago. But they won’t remain blinded forever, more on that later. As to the current spiritual condition of the Jews, it has not caught God by surprise and was foretold long ago in Hosea 3:

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim (idols). Afterward, the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days. (Hos 3:3-4).


Doesn’t this describe the Jews perfectly? They will go a long time with a king (or the King of kings), without a sacrifice (no temple for the Orthodox Jews), or even idols (the secular Jews who believe in nothing), BUT afterwards, they will return to God in the last days. The last part is the most important point.

So do I believe they will be gathered in unbelief? Yes, I do. There is a physical restoration BEFORE a spiritual restoration. The physical restoration has already happened, the spiritual restoration is to come (Eze 36:25-27, Hos 5:15, Zec 12:8-10, Dan 9:24). I believe that will occur in the Great Tribulation aka Jacob’s Trouble. God will use the Great Tribulation to refine them like fire. He is going to put them in a position where they will have to return to Him. Hosea 5:15 says:

"I will return again to My place Till they acknowledge their offense. Then they will seek My face; In their affliction, they will earnestly seek Me.”


And Daniel 9:24 says the purpose of the 70th week is to “finish the transgression” (among other things). What is their corporate offense\transgression? It is the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus specifically makes their acknowledgment a precondition for His return. If there are any doubts, Zechariah says:

“Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. (Zec 12:10).”


So yes, the Jews still have a role to play. They were meant to be “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Ex. 19:6), and they will be so in the Millennium Kingdom. Zechariah says, "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let s go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'" (Zec 8:23). This spiritual awakening will culminate during the Great Tribulation, but even now it has already begun. In 1967 there were no Messianic Churches in the world, now there is 350 and counting.
Last edited by Jericho on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:57 am

:a3: Jericho
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Exit40 on Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:09 am

Great post Jericho !

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Loop on Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:43 am

Amen Jericho
Psalms 91
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:00 pm

The import thing to note is the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional


This is simply not true. It is clear in scripture that Abraham's children all have faith in common. And then there is John 8:39-44:
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, IF YE WERE ABRAHAM'S CHILDREN, YE WOULD DO THE WORKS OF ABRAHAM. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. YE DO THE DEEDS OF YOUR FATHER........YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL...."


We will have a problem communicating because the words "jew" and "israel" has lost their true meanings. Or rather the enemy has changed their meanings. The term jew has become a blanket term to mean all of God's people. It has come to mean anyone who practices Judaism. These statements are misleading. A Jew is of the Tribe of Judah. A Jew can also be of the House of Judah, also known as the "Southern Kingdom" which also includes The Tribe of Judah and Benjamin. There were also some Levites mixed in the House of Judah.


The word Israel has come to mean a collective of Jews. This statement is false and deceives the hearer into believing that the State of today is scriptural. It has been planned that way. Israel was the Northern Kingdom also known as the House of Israel. It comprised of the so-called 10 Lost Tribes. There were also some Levites mixed in. After the House of Israel was taken captive by the Assyrians in about 722bc, over 2500 years ago. Israel lost her identity, but they are not lost. They migrated to the North and did not come back to the Land. Estimates of the numbers range from 5 to 30 million people. The enemy doesn't want you to know who they are. They are NOT jews. By now they must number in the 100's of millions, "as the stars in heaven and the sand upon the seashore". Many people have written about them but most are older ministers. The Bible gives clue as to who/where they are today, but the narrative is shut down completely with words such as "conspiracy theory" and "replacement theology" and " anti-semitism". These words are used as a weapon to shut down exploration. They dont want you to go poking around. And we have no excuse for ignorance since we have the internet. We are free to go to and fro and knowledge is increased. Deception. Defined as trickery. You are being duped if you don't look at the other side.


I have heard all there is about Israel, the Jews, the State. I too believed that God is gathering them. But I wanted to know who the Beast was and I wanted to know who Mystery Babylon is. I found out and I believe I can make a case of it.

The State was put into place before the great many of us were born. So the deception was already in place. Jesus warned us about them, but we do not heed His Words. We gloss over them! He told us about the gathering:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

THIS is what is meant when a nation is born in a day. The rapture happens and BOOM!!! God has His kingdom and nation. Instantaneous!! Miraculous!! Spontaneous!! There is nothing supernatural about the founding of the State. It is nothing more than the work of men who worship the God of Forces. In order to work the state into the gathering prophecies, you must have several gatherings. It doesn't work.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:00 pm

Romans 11:25-32
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but
from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Romans 9:14-18
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Daniel 2:20-23
20Daniel said,
“Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever,
For wisdom and power belong to Him.
21“It is He who changes the times and the epochs;
He removes kings and establishes kings;
He gives wisdom to wise men
And knowledge to men of understanding.
22“It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And the light dwells with Him.
23“To You, O God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise,
For You have given me wisdom and power;
Even now You have made known to me what we requested of You,
For You have made known to us the king’s matter.”


It is God who decide who believes and who does not believe.

It is God who establishes kings and removes kings.
If God did not establish the nation Israel, then it would not exist.
God establishes Kings and removes Kings. Therefore, He established Muhammed and the subsequent Sultans.
Did they believe in Christ? No. they are enemies of the Gospel.
Nevertheless, God establishes Kings and Kingdoms even when they do not believe.
If you doubt this, then consider ancient Israel itself as an example. Moses prophesied what kind of nation they would be, yet we know for certain God established ancient Israel. The very people who crucified His son.


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Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:32 pm

keithareilly wrote:It is God who establishes kings and removes kings. If God did not establish the nation Israel, then it would not exist.God establishes Kings and removes Kings. Therefore, He established Muhammed and the subsequent Sultans.Did they believe in Christ? No. they are enemies of the Gospel.Nevertheless, God establishes Kings and Kingdoms even when they do not believe.If you doubt this, then consider ancient Israel itself as an example. Moses prophesied what kind of nation they would be, yet we know for certain God established ancient Israel. The very people who crucified His son.


:a3: Sure would that these things were more clearly believed and received. :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:31 pm

keithareilly wrote:Did they believe in Christ? No. they are enemies of the Gospel.
Nevertheless, God establishes Kings and Kingdoms even when they do not believe.

Keith


Fine. Now I will show that God has raised these Zionists to be the Beast Empire and Mystery Babylon.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:44 pm

Lookingforacity wrote ...
Fine. Now I will show that God has raised these Zionists to be the Beast Empire and Mystery Babylon.


Just about everybody has a theory about who the beast and Mystery Babylon are. Even I have one.

Unless you can demonstrate consistency between the interpretation of the beasts of Daniel and the interpretation of Mystery Babylon and the beast she rides, I will pretty much ignore your theory.

Keith
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:47 pm

:snack:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Jericho on Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:34 am

This is simply not true.


"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you"

"Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gen 17:7-8)

It seems pretty clear to me. Everlasting means everlasting.

The term jew has become a blanket term to mean all of God's people.


It's true that in the strictest sense a Jew is from the tribe of Judah. However, using it as a blanket term is actually more apt, and here's why. First, Some people from the 10 northern tribes did migrate south after Israel divided into two kingdoms. Second, 1 Chronicles includes the geneoligies of ALL Israel (from North & South) that were carried away into Babylonian captivity:

"So all Israel were reckoned by genealogies; and, behold, they were written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah, who were carried away to Babylon for their transgression." (1Ch 9:1)

So even after the remnants from Southern Judah returned from Babylonaian captivity, members from all the tribes were present. Third, in 2 Chronicles 30 an invitation was made throughout Israel and Judah for every tribe to come to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. So not only did tribes from the Kingdom of Israel still exist after the Assyrian destruction, but the more faithful ones migrated south:

"Then the runners went throughout all Israel and Judah with the letters from the king and his leaders, and spoke according to the command of the king: “Children of Israel, return to the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel; then He will return to the remnant of you who have escaped from the hand of the kings of Assyria." 2Ch 30:6

"Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. 2Ch 30:11"

It also mentions the tribes of Levi, Ephraim, and Issachar. In addition, in Ester 3:6 Mordecai is called a Jew, and he's a Benjamite. In Luke 2:36 Anna the prophetess was from the tribe of Asher, but she would have been considered a Jew (by the Romans and by everyone else). So yes, a "Jew" can be used as a blanketed term to encompass ALL the tribes of Israel.

THIS is what is meant when a nation is born in a day. The rapture happens and BOOM!!! God has His kingdom and nation. Instantaneous!! Miraculous!! Spontaneous!! There is nothing supernatural about the founding of the State. It is nothing more than the work of men who worship the God of Forces. In order to work the state into the gathering prophecies, you must have several gatherings. It doesn't work.


I think Isaiah 66:8 makes it clear:

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:58 am

:a3: Jericho
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:57 am

Jericho wrote:
"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you"

"Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gen 17:7-8)

It seems pretty clear to me. Everlasting means everlasting.


It is clear to me you are leaving out faith. So why did God make Israel wander in the wilderness for 40 years? He gave them the promises of the land did He not? Then according to you, there was no other requirement for entering the land other than their birthright. We learn that requirement in the New Testament.

Hebrews 3:19
SO WE SEE THAT THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.


Galatians 3:7
KNOW YE THEREFORE THAT THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM.


Romans 2:28-29
FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:BUT HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMSION IS THAT OF THE HEART.."


Romans 11:20
… BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF..."


So, we see that the promises of the land was conditional upon faith. And then once IN the land, there were conditions of blessing and curse.The Zionists today do believe they are ENTITLED to it, but there is no faith, therefore they are not entitled to the promise.

Again, the State is the work of men who worship the God of Forces.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:11 am

I think you are on to something here, there is a national gathering tied to the land and there is a spiritual gathering tied to faith in God. These two gatherings have a relationship. Today Israelis live in the land that was granted them under the Abrahamic /Mosaic covenant. I agree that this does not fulfill the gathering spoken of in prophecy. The prophecy of the Fig tree in Matthew is often said to have been fulfilled when the nation was "reborn" after WW2. I however tend to believe that it is acutally referring to national spiritual rebirth rather than political. Isn't that the same mistake the Jews of Jesus' time made? They were looking for a political savior instead of a spiritual one. I think they still are, they still are not looking for spiritual salvation, they still look for a political savior. I think the current situation which is political, with Israel occupying the land will play right into the fulfillment of prophecy concerning the Antichrist. He will become to them a political savior who will enable them to rebuild a temple and conduct sacrifices once again. You see he would enslave them to the law rather than open their hearts and eyes to Christ their true Savior and liberator.

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Re: The State: Part I

Postby ToledoDebbie on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:25 am

Jericho, what wonderful posts. I could never explain what I knew in my heart was true, as well as you have!
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:16 pm

Jericho wrote:
I think Isaiah 66:8 makes it clear:

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."


I say the verse refers to the Day of the Lord when He gathers His children. You say that it refers to the State. Taking the verses IN CONTEXT, tell me, when did God "extend peace to her like a river?" And when did He come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire?" "For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many."
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:03 pm

Looking4acity wrote:
Jericho wrote:
I think Isaiah 66:8 makes it clear:

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."


I say the verse refers to the Day of the Lord when He gathers His children. You say that it refers to the State. Taking the verses IN CONTEXT, tell me, when did God "extend peace to her like a river?" And when did He come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire?" "For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many."


Lookingforacity,

Those things have not yet happened. That does not imply we are taking verse 8 out of context; it means the process has begun and we must wait. For example, in these verse we see God come with his chariots like fire, with fury, rebuking with flames; the slain of the Lord shall be many. Clearly this is not talking about the exact same time as extending peace like a river. No, these verses cover a period of time. During that period of time we shall see Zion's birth, The Lords rebuke and the slaying of many, peace extended like a river. That period of time has started, but it is not yet completed; therefore, it is not reasonable to conclude verse 8 is taken out of context.

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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:44 am

Looking4acity wrote:
It is clear to me you are leaving out faith. So why did God make Israel wander in the wilderness for 40 years? He gave them the promises of the land did He not?



:answerthequestion: :answerthequestion: :answerthequestion:
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:06 am

The enslavement of Israel to Egypt represents man's enslavement to Sin.
There freedom from enslavement to Egypt represents our freedom from enslavement to Sin.
There wandering in the desert represents our Christian wandering of the world with no home in this world (a nation that is not a nation).

There gathering back to there land is the fulfillment of God's promise;
It is the evidence the promise Jesus made, to come back and gather us to the dwelling places awaiting us, will be kept.

John 14:1-6
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


The story of Israel is our story in worldly form.

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Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:32 am

keithareilly wrote:The enslavement of Israel to Egypt represents man's enslavement to Sin.
There freedom from enslavement to Egypt represents our freedom from enslavement to Sin.
There wandering in the desert represents our Christian wandering of the world with no home in this world (a nation that is not a nation).

There gathering back to there land is the fulfillment of God's promise;
It is the evidence the promise Jesus made, to come back and gather us to the dwelling places awaiting us, will be kept.

John 14:1-6
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.” 5Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


The story of Israel is our story in worldly form.

Keith


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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:47 am

Lookingforacity,

Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

So, we watch the Jews to understand what will happen to the Greeks (us).

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here is another example of the evidence that we will one day be gathered. But this evidence is harder because it can be viewed as subjective. Does the Holy Spirit reside in me or is it just my imagination?

On the other hand, the return of the Israelis to their land is hard core undeniable fact. Their return is not subjective. It is happening before our eyes. Remember, God struck down the Jewish nation for rejecting His Son. Even in the first part of the last century, God was still punishing them as evidenced by the Holocaust. For God to allow Israel's re-establishment means the time of vengeance/punishment for Crucifying Christ is coming to an end.

Because of Israel's return, we can be certain that we will be brought to the home Jesus promised us.

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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:27 pm

keithareilly wrote:Lookingforacity,

Romans 1:16
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

So, we watch the Jews to understand what will happen to the Greeks (us).

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here is another example of the evidence that we will one day be gathered. But this evidence is harder because it can be viewed as subjective. Does the Holy Spirit reside in me or is it just my imagination?

On the other hand, the return of the Israelis to their land is hard core undeniable fact. Their return is not subjective. It is happening before our eyes. Remember, God struck down the Jewish nation for rejecting His Son. Even in the first part of the last century, God was still punishing them as evidenced by the Holocaust. For God to allow Israel's re-establishment means the time of vengeance/punishment for Crucifying Christ is coming to an end.

Because of Israel's return, we can be certain that we will be brought to the home Jesus promised us.

Keith


You really go through a lot of trouble to avoid answering the question. WHY DID GOD MAKE ISRAEL WANDER IN THE WILDERNESS FOR 40 YEARS? Here is a hint:

Hebrews 3:19
SO WE SEE THAT THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby shorttribber on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:05 pm

Looking4acity wrote:Hebrews 3:19SO WE SEE THAT THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

One small group of them could not....because of unbelief, true.
Did they (Israel) enter in after that one small group of them couldn't? Yes, they did.

Did any of the Seed of Judah/Israel Have Faith in 1947/48? I believe so. You have not one shred of evidence that SOME of them Did Not Have Faith in God...a Remnant.
Therefore, I Believe, FOR THAT Faithful Remnant...God Kept His promise on their behalf....and they Have a Literal Nation.

What is this saying to us looking?
Psalm 68
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:40 pm

Looking4acity wrote:You really go through a lot of trouble to avoid answering the question. WHY DID GOD MAKE ISRAEL WANDER IN THE WILDERNESS FOR 40 YEARS? Here is a hint:

Hebrews 3:19
SO WE SEE THAT THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.


I'm not sure it's that simple, Looking4acity. Remember the Israelites were in Egypt for @400 yrs. or so and had multiplied in number during that time to about 3 million.

Those generations had been exposed to the idolatry, pantheism, and even their gods adored in the form of animals. The time in the wilderness involved a process of "unlearning" those systems learned and adopted by God's people. Through the ministry of Moses and Aaron, God brought them out of Egypt, nurtured them, fed them, and taught them to trust Him as the One true God. It was a process of building a nation who would be called by His name.

And as ST mentioned above, there always was and always will be a remnant which is faithful:

Rom 9:27  Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;  (caps NASB)
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:52 pm

Exodus 33:1-3
1Then the LORD spoke to Moses, “Depart, go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought up from the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give it.’ 2“I will send an angel before you and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite. 3“Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, because you are an obstinate people, and I might destroy you on the way.”

The Isaraelites who went up to the land God promised Abraham's decendents were not a faithful people. They were obstinant and God did not want to be in their presence. God was so unhappy with them that God did not want to be amongst them and was concerned He, Himself, might destroy them. The Israelites who went into the promised land were most definitely not a faithful people.

Even so, God gave them Promised Land; even to the unfaithful He gave it, even to these people, whose descendant's He knew would kill His Son, in accordance with God's plan established before the foundation of the world.

Keith
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:35 pm

2“I will send an angel before you and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite. 3“Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, because you are an obstinate people, and I might destroy you on the way.”


God's presence will not be in the midst of His people but He will accomplish His purpose via an angel. He will still drive out the Canaanite, Amorite, Hittite, etc. but using a different method because His holy presence would cause them to perish. At that time, God began to use Moses' intercession for the people in the tent of meeting as explained in the rest of Exodus chapter 33.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm

Hello

If it is permitted: -

One: - The reason that Israel is still suffering rejection from God at this moment, is because of their disobedience with respect to the Ten Commandments. They rejected and disobeyed the first three commandments: -
Exodus 20:1-7: -

20:
1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [#00BFFF]5[/color] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth {generations/ages} of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Noting that: - the word "generations/ages" is not present in the Hebrew Text and was added by the scribes and scholars to make sense of the second commandment because of the extended timeframe that exists in this verse. It is my view that the time spans that is being spoken about are each around 1,000 plus years

Now my understand of the expression: -"visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth {generations/ages} of those who hate Me," tells us the reason why Israel is still suffering today and why this suffering is still occurring until such time that the 2,300 years of the heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God in Jerusalem has come to an end, after which, Paul tells us, "all of Israel will be saved." Rom 11:25-26.

During Jesus' time of ministry, He offered to remove the heavy burden of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon the nation of Israel which had already begun at the beginning of the fifth age of mankind, i.e. the third age of the existence of the nation of Israel, if they would repent of their sins, when He said:-
Matthew 11:28-30: - 28 Come to Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

During Jesus' ministry He implored Israel to repent: -
Matthew 4:17: - From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

God, Himself, through the prophet Daniel, had implored that the nation of Israel repent of their sin of Idolatrous worship and had set a time by which they could, if they chose to, repent of their sin and to put a stop to it in Daniel 9:24a: -
Daniel 9:24a: -

24 "Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,

Israel, did not reject Jesus, they had already rejected the Lord God of Heaven, Who had entered into a covenantal agreement with the nation of Israel for Israel to become a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy nation and be His possession among all of the People on the earth. At the beginning of the fifth age, the third age of the existence of the nation of Israel from the time of the birth of Isaac, the sins/iniquities of the fathers of the first two ages of the existence of the nation of Israel, were being visited upon the descendant children of the fathers of Israel because they would not repent or stop their idolatrous behaviour.

Two: - Genesis 15:16a tells us that Abraham's descendants in the fourth generation/age will return to the land, but in this prophetic verse, there is no mention of God being involved because He was still walking contrary to Israel because they had not repented of their sins of idolatrous behaviour.

The formation of a renewed Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation to be His possession among all of the people of the earth has not yet happened in that Israel still has not repented of their idolatrous behaviour.

This will not occur for at least 20 -30 years from now.

The sign that it is going to happen has gone forth and the drawing of the nations of the earth to go up against Jerusalem has already begun when God will begin the Judgement of the Kings of the earth at Armageddon and the wicked heavenly hosts in the heaven.

When Israel repents on that day of judgement of the kings of the earth, then a Kingdom of priests and a Holy Nation who will become God's possession among all of the people of the earth will happen in one day.

Also at that time God will establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth and the Son of Man will be given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him.

Shalom
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:11 pm

Ok. I will explain it as best I can.

In Number chapter 13 we read where God sends the spies to Canaan. One out of every tribe is sent. They are gone 40 days. When they came back they gave a report to the congregation, and only one man had the faith that they could possess the land. It was Caleb, of the tribe of Judah. The others said " We are not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we. And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of great stature. And there we saw giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. " The children complained. In fact they had complained quite a lot since God brought them out of Egypt. God was very angry at them. He said "Because all those men which have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; surely they shall not see the promised land. " Apparently, it wasn't only the spies He was angry with , it was the whole lot of them. He punishes them with a year in the wilderness for each day the spies were gone, equal to 40 years. Only Caleb and the people's children were allowed to go in 40 years later.

Now, the reason He punished them was because they did not believe Him, even after they saw all the wonders and miracles He performed on their behalf. They were punished for unbelief. In other words, their lack of faith. "For without faith, it is impossible to please God."
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:16 pm

See next entry
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:19 pm

Looking4acity wrote:There is no doubt that there will be a remnant saved. I am not arguing the point. My point is that the people that are in the State today, that was instrumental of its forming, that call themselves Jews, and are clearly NOT Jews according to sound Scripture. They believe they are entitled to it, took other people's property and justify it because "God gave it to them". They are in unbelief which prevented them from going in before, but this time they are also anti-christ, that can be easily demonstated. ...


There unbelief did not prevent them from going in before. They were given the promised land by God, even when God knew full well their obstinate behavior would be passed down and culminate in the killing of His only Son.

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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:32 pm

Looking4acity wrote:There is no doubt that there will be a remnant saved. I am not arguing the point. My point is that the people that are in the State today, that was instrumental of its forming, that call themselves Jews, and are clearly NOT Jews according to sound Scripture. They believe they are entitled to it, took other people's property and justify it because "God gave it to them". They are in unbelief which prevented them from going in before, but this time they are also anti-christ, that can be easily demonstated. Things havent changed, God's conditions apply the same today.


Looking4acity, a remnant can be as few as the four who remained faithful in Babylon and refused to partake of the King's food or Abraham's intercession for those he might find who were righteous among the wicked. Or Noah and his family who were a remnant following the flood. Or Lot and his family who went out from Sodom and were saved from it's destruction. There are "whosoevers" in Israel who are present at this time in history who are the remnant. They have come to believe the 350 prophecies about Jesus the Messiah. For their sake, God's purposes and promises to the nation of Israel will be fulfilled.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:39 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Looking4acity, a remnant can be as few as the four who remained faithful in Babylon and refused to partake of the King's food or Abraham's intercession for those he might find who were righteous among the wicked. Or Noah and his family who were a remnant following the flood. Or Lot and his family who went out from Sodom and were saved from it's destruction. There are "whosoevers" in Israel who are present at this time in history who are the remnant. They have come to believe the 350 prophecies about Jesus the Messiah. For their sake, God's purposes and promises to the nation of Israel will be fulfilled.


I agree. But do you not understand what I am saying? Those people are clearly not running the Israeli government.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:43 pm

keithareilly wrote:
There unbelief did not prevent them from going in before. They were given the promised land by God, even when God knew full well their obstinate behavior would be passed down and culminate in the killing of His only Son.

Keith


I answered you but for some reason, it appeared above your post.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:21 pm

Looking4acity wrote:I agree. But do you not understand what I am saying? Those people are clearly not running the Israeli government.


The remnant who are residents in the land will be the recipients of the fulfillment of God's purposes and promises.

Netanyahu Bible Study Highlights Israel's Right to the Land

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday hosted his sixth open Bible study at the official Prime Minister’s Residence in Jerusalem since reestablishing the practice two years ago.

The event was attended by dozens of leading rabbis and academics, many of them members of Knesset and the current government.


continues
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:58 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Looking4acity wrote:I agree. But do you not understand what I am saying? Those people are clearly not running the Israeli government.


The remnant who are residents in the land will be the recipients of the fulfillment of God's purposes and promises.

Netanyahu Bible Study Highlights Israel's Right to the Land

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Sunday hosted his sixth open Bible study at the official Prime Minister’s Residence in Jerusalem since reestablishing the practice two years ago.

The event was attended by dozens of leading rabbis and academics, many of them members of Knesset and the current government.


continues


Yes, the remnant will be, plus there's sooooo many more. Millions that will be there. When God gathers His Children. It hasn't happened yet and it isn't the State. I do believe they will flee when the antichrist is revealed. But, The prophecies concerning the gathering wasnt meant to include or have the modern State inserted. This is a huge part of the deception.

Just because they are having a Bible study, doesn't mean these men are righteous and have good intentions. Especially the higher officials including Netanyahu. They want to put on a good show publicly just like the Pharisees did in Jesus' day. They want to project legitimacy from God. And someday, they will show signs and wonders from there and people will believe a lie.

It isnt just the State though. It involves most if not all governments. Any government that has a central bank i suppose. But its Israel they formed in particular to set up the headquarters of the NWO there.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:38 pm

Daniel 20:21
"It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.

It is God who establishes kings and it is God who removes them.

Israel is no exception. The idea that Israel must be established by a faithful people just does not exist in scripture.
The only thing that exists in Scripture is that God establishes Israel just as He establishes every other nation. What kind of people God establishes a nation with is God's choice. Every nation or kingdom that ever existed was established by God. I cannot think of one that was established using a faithful populous. A few faithful individuals? sure; but, an entire populous that was faithful? Can't think of a single one.

When I read the History of Israel. I read the history of faithless nation. I read about a nation that was destroyed by God because no matter how hard God tried, the people would not remain faithful. They did not want to leave Egypt, they did not want to wage war for the promised land, they did not want kill all the people they were told to kill, they did not want to worship only God, they did not want keep the commandments, they did not want to teach God's word, they did not want to obey even when the prophets told them they would be carried into war, they killed the prophets, were so bad God left the temple. When they came back from Babylon, they did not want build the temple, when Jesus came they did not want to yield the land to the son. Israel was destroyed by God because they were an unfaithful people.

Arguing the nation of Israel must be established by a faithful people contradicts everything about Israel.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:48 pm

Looking4acity wrote:Yes, the remnant will be, plus there's sooooo many more. Millions that will be there. When God gathers His Children. It hasn't happened yet and it isn't the State. I do believe they will flee when the antichrist is revealed. But, The prophecies concerning the gathering wasnt meant to include or have the modern State inserted. This is a huge part of the deception.


I don't believe Israel is called a "modern State" anywhere in scripture. :wink:

But Israel is the land promised to Abraham's descendants "From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gen. 15:18)

Just because they are having a Bible study, doesn't mean these men are righteous and have good intentions. Especially the higher officials including Netanyahu. They want to put on a good show publicly just like the Pharisees did in Jesus' day. They want to project legitimacy from God. And someday, they will show signs and wonders from there and people will believe a lie.


We cannot determine their righteousness nor intentions. Nor can we make the assumption they are just putting on a good show. However, what we can know from the link I posted that Bible study is apparently a regular practice in the Netanyahu residence.

The prime minister said that while these open Bible studies have only been held a handful of times, the Word of God is studied in his home at least once a week. Netanyahu’s younger son, Avner, won the National Bible Quiz for Youth in 2010, and, according to the prime minister, often leads their home sessions.

Also evident from the link is that they are aware the Bible supports the evidence that the land has been given to the Jews.

Netanyahu noted that there are many in the world today who do not accept Israel’s divine appointment to this particular land, and who seek to defame the Jewish people and deny their birthright.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:32 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Looking4acity wrote:Yes, the remnant will be, plus there's sooooo many more. Millions that will be there. When God gathers His Children. It hasn't happened yet and it isn't the State. I do believe they will flee when the antichrist is revealed. But, The prophecies concerning the gathering wasnt meant to include or have the modern State inserted. This is a huge part of the deception.


I don't believe Israel is called a "modern State" anywhere in scripture. :wink:

But Israel is the land promised to Abraham's descendants "From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gen. 15:18)

Just because they are having a Bible study, doesn't mean these men are righteous and have good intentions. Especially the higher officials including Netanyahu. They want to put on a good show publicly just like the Pharisees did in Jesus' day. They want to project legitimacy from God. And someday, they will show signs and wonders from there and people will believe a lie.


We cannot determine their righteousness nor intentions. Nor can we make the assumption they are just putting on a good show. However, what we can know from the link I posted that Bible study is apparently a regular practice in the Netanyahu residence.

The prime minister said that while these open Bible studies have only been held a handful of times, the Word of God is studied in his home at least once a week. Netanyahu’s younger son, Avner, won the National Bible Quiz for Youth in 2010, and, according to the prime minister, often leads their home sessions.

Also evident from the link is that they are aware the Bible supports the evidence that the land has been given to the Jews.

Netanyahu noted that there are many in the world today who do not accept Israel’s divine appointment to this particular land, and who seek to defame the Jewish people and deny their birthright.


Lol. No, they named the State "Israel" , which it isnt, unless they by faith believe in God's Word. Now, you can argue that they believe that it is their land which is written in God's Word, but Satan knows the Bible too and is using it for the great deception.

Yes, the land was promised to his descendants. But scripture fully explains that you are NOT his descendant if you are in unbelief. Israel today is in unbelief therefore not entitled.

We can determine his righteousness because he denies the Lord Jesus Christ. We can determine their intentions because they seek legitimacy when there is none. I hope to start presenting information soon and it will be easier to understand why I say these things.

I believe that the so-called "divine appointment" will play a part in the worship of the beast and the controlling of the buying and selling.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby mrgravyard49 on Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:28 pm

Wow, where is Mr. Baldy in this..? But really what does this talk matter? We sit on the edge og ww3, isaiah 17 and IMHO ezekiel 38. And the tribulation. .
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Mark F on Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:16 am

Looking4acity you are mistaken, There were two spies that gave a good report, Caleb from Judah and Joshua the son of Nun from Ephraim. And It should be noted that when the kingdom was divided the Northern kingdom included Joshua's tribe of Ephraim (believer) and the Southern kingdom included Judah(believer) and Benjamin.

Aside from that Abiding has pointed out a very important point in that God waited until all the men 20 and above who were numbered (excluding the Levites who were not numbered) and Joshua and Caleb died to rid them of the unbelievers that came out of Egypt and could not enter.

Are we to then believe that every person who entered in was a believer?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:37 am

Looking4acity wrote:Lol. No, they named the State "Israel"


Who is "they"?

which it isnt, unless they by faith believe in God's Word. Now, you can argue that they believe that it is their land which is written in God's Word, but Satan knows the Bible too and is using it for the great deception.


God spoke of His people collectively as Israel. Moses was to tell Pharaoh to "Let My son (all of the Israelites) go." Just as Italy's residents are called Italians; Germany's called Germans, etc., those who inhabit or dwell in that land/country/nation are called Israelites.

"Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. "So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn."' Exodus 4:22-23 

Yes, the land was promised to his descendants. But scripture fully explains that you are NOT his descendant if you are in unbelief. Israel today is in unbelief therefore not entitled.


Just as there are some residents in Italy who are of a different ethnicity and Germans who are not directly descended from German parents, so, too, some citizens of Israel may not be directly descended from God's son, Israel. They may still identify themselves as Israelites as they dwell in the land called Israel. Those who are direct descendants, are the remnant to whom the land was promised in Genesis 12. Paul was such a descendant:

... although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:  circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; Php 3:4-5
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:57 am

Romans 11
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”
11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.”
27“THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


It is pretty evident by these scriptures that rulling out the Jews for lack of faith in Christ is a mistake.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:26 am

Mark F wrote:Looking4acity you are mistaken, There were two spies that gave a good report, Caleb from Judah and Joshua the son of Nun from Ephraim. And It should be noted that when the kingdom was divided the Northern kingdom included Joshua's tribe of Ephraim (believer) and the Southern kingdom included Judah(believer) and Benjamin.

Aside from that Abiding has pointed out a very important point in that God waited until all the men 20 and above who were numbered (excluding the Levites who were not numbered) and Joshua and Caleb died to rid them of the unbelievers that came out of Egypt and could not enter.

Are we to then believe that every person who entered in was a believer?


It's hard to get every thing perfect on limited time. I did not leave anyone out on purpose. After God taking care of them in the wilderness for 40 years, knowing what happened to those before them, then the answer is yes.
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Jericho on Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:37 am

“After the LORD your God has done this for you, don’t say in your hearts, ‘The LORD has given us this land because we are such good people!’ No, it is because of the wickedness of the other nations that he is pushing them out of your way.

It is not because you are so good or have such integrity that you are about to occupy their land. The LORD your God will drive these nations out ahead of you only because of their wickedness, and to fulfill the oath he swore to your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (Deu 9:4-5)


Note the above passage mentions nothing about faith. The conquest of Canaan had to do with judging the Canaanite nations for their wickedness, and for honoring the covenant God made with Abraham and his descendants. However, retaining control of the promised land was conditional on their obedience. They were specifically told not to follow their practices or worship their gods, but to destroy them completely. Well, they didn't do this and God had to keep sending judges to deliver them.

Are we to then believe that every person who entered in was a believer?


I think it's telling that Joshua sent only two spies, when Mosses sent tweleve spies. I think he didn't want to risk another negative report. In any case, given Israel's repeated rebellion in the Old Testament, I find it hard to beleive that everyone who entered Canaan was a believer. And what about the 32,000 Midianite girls they captured prior in Numbers 31? Where they also beleivers?
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Re: The State: Part I

Postby Looking4acity on Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:21 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Looking4acity wrote:Lol. No, they named the State "Israel"


Who is "they"?

which it isnt, unless they by faith believe in God's Word. Now, you can argue that they believe that it is their land which is written in God's Word, but Satan knows the Bible too and is using it for the great deception.


God spoke of His people collectively as Israel. Moses was to tell Pharaoh to "Let My son (all of the Israelites) go." Just as Italy's residents are called Italians; Germany's called Germans, etc., those who inhabit or dwell in that land/country/nation are called Israelites.

"Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. "So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn."' Exodus 4:22-23 

Yes, the land was promised to his descendants. But scripture fully explains that you are NOT his descendant if you are in unbelief. Israel today is in unbelief therefore not entitled.


Just as there are some residents in Italy who are of a different ethnicity and Germans who are not directly descended from German parents, so, too, some citizens of Israel may not be directly descended from God's son, Israel. They may still identify themselves as Israelites as they dwell in the land called Israel. Those who are direct descendants, are the remnant to whom the land was promised in Genesis 12. Paul was such a descendant:

... although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:  circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; Php 3:4-5


"They" are the ones forming the NWO. They are the Synagogue of Satan.

Romans 9:6-7 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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