When Jesus Comes

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B I have already provided a summary of the end time event as I see them, apparently very clearly and with scriptural support. The difference is that I am not a ???-tribber of any sort and this lens, of a ???-triber, that you use to interpret scripture, is where the error is on your part.

Jay Ross, I wrote what was in Scripture - it has absolutely nothing to do with what particular view one has about the Rapture.

It is a known fact that Israel has been quietly acquiring the parts to build the temple quickly.

Be as it may - Israel quietly acquiring parts to build the Temple. What you have failed to do is support that a Temple will be built prior to the Return of Christ. Many want to use 2 Thessalonians 2:4 as evidence that a rebuilt Temple will have to be made prior to the Return of Christ - well that is still very much debatable.

Rev 19 and Rev 20 are not sequential as you understand these two chapters to be. Therein lies your problem with you understanding of these two chapters.

Yes, you are correct. I do wholeheartedly believe that Revelation 19 and 20 are sequential. It is the ONLY way that Scripture works in HARMONY with the rest of Scripture. Other parts of the Book of Revelation may not be - but MOST Certainly Revelation 19 & 20 are. Unless you understand this - you will be very wrong in your own private interpretation.

It seems to me that you are pushing a “pre-trib”/”pre-millennium” theory and it does not stack up.

For the Record, I am not pushing any particular Rapture View - and especially NOT the Pretribulation Rapture. Anyone who has known what I have posted about End Time events knows that I wholehearted DISAGREE with the Pretribulation Rapture theory. So - lets not go there. It amazes me that you say that I am pushing a "pre-millennium" theory yet in your comment below you state that I am "pushing that the Millennium Age is not a literal age"

You are also pushing that the Millennium Age is not a literal age with your study in this thread.

Jay Ross, if you CAREFULLY read what I have written you will plainly see that I am NOT pushing anything. But I am just simply trying to discover the TRUTH - with the help of others who properly divide the Word of God.

At this point - You have proven to me that you want to "REARRANGE" Scripture and/or ADD to it and TAKE AWAY from it as YOU deem necessary. This has been a PROVEN fact with the comments you have made on various posts.
I find this most unfortunate. Has there been anyone here on this forum that you haven't attempted to throw stones at as it relates to End Time Prophecy

Could it be that it's YOU that is very WRONG

It would be a very good idea for you not to rearrange Scripture to fit a particular view point that YOU have, or make it work the way that YOU want it to be. It's NOT about your PRIVATE Interpretation Jay Ross. One very prime example is:
If you cannot understand that Revelation 19 and 20 are sequential - then you are NOT properly interpreting Scripture.

Another good idea may be to ask yourself:

"Why is it that I cause so much controversy with each and every member of this forum when I post my views?"

Well it's because YOU Jay Ross, want to add your own PRIVATE INTERPRETATION to Scripture - and rearrange it to suit YOU, and what YOU believe. Again, I find it most unfortunate.

[Jay Ross]

Mr B what I find as unfortunate is that members like you do not take the time to research what I have posted. If the beasts who are wicked fallen heavenly hosts are judged in Isaiah 24:21-22 are imprisoned for many day is a cistern/pit then if they are thrown out of heaven at the beginning of the Millennium age and immediately imprisoned in the pit/bottomless pit for 1,000 years then they cannot be thrown into the lake of fire until the bottomless pit is unlocked towards the end of the Millennium Age. That is why I understand that the Chapters Rev 19 and 20 are parallel story lines with the same starting point, with both chapters ending towards the very end of the Millennium Age.

Mr B. it would be a very good idea for you not to rearrange Scripture to fit a particular view point that YOU have, or make it work the way that YOU want it to be. It's NOT about your PRIVATE Interpretation Mr B.. One very prime example is:
If you cannot understand that Revelation 19 and 20 are parallel stories - then you are NOT properly interpreting Scripture.

Mr B. it has been you who have been antagonistic towards what I write, in many threads, making false claims etc. to support you particular views.

So be it Mr B. people are able to see and decide for themselves what is God's truth based on scripture alone.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, part of the purpose of the 1,000 reign is to fulfill the promises made to Israel in the OT. The King of Israel will reign from Jerusalem and all the nations will worship Him or they suffer punishment (Zech 14), the King will reign from the temple (Isa 2), that He will rebuild (Zech 6), and He will reign as Priest and King (Zech 6).

Jesus will reign on the throne of David (Luke 1), over a united Israel (Ezek 37), and the law will go out from the King and all the nations will go up to Jerusalem, which has been raised up as the highest of the surrounding mountains, to seek His guidance and judgements between nations (Isa 2).

Israel will be regathered and restored and the nations will serve Israel and give her their riches(foreigners will rebuild your walls, and their kings will serve you....men will bring you the wealth of the nations- their kings led in triumphal procession... the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined- Isa 60), (Aliens will shepherd your flocks, foreigners will work your fields and vineyards...you will feed on the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast- Isa 61). There are several passages in Isaiah that indicate a future restoration for Israel, in which the nations are ruled over by her and her King.

After the GWTJ and when the New Jerusalem comes to earth, only those whose names are in the Lamb's book are allowed into the city(nothing impure will enter it...only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life) and there is no temple in the city because God the Father and the Lamb are its temple- Rev 21. This is not consistent with the depiction of the restored Israel in which there is a rebuilt temple, conquered foreigners who serve Israel, nations who can choose not to worship the King in Jerusalem, and nations who attack Jerusalem and are destroyed at Gog II.

So there is a period to come, prior to the coming of the New Jerusalem, in which Israel is restored and reigns over the nations with Jesus as her King, which would be the 1,000 year reign of Jesus in Jerusalem.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, i would speculate about another purpose for the millennium, that it is part of God's demonstration of how He deals with rebellion and man.

God could have taken man from Eden to the New Jerusalem, but He has chosen to allow a period in which the destruction of rebellion, rebellion against God, plays out over time. God commands man not to rebel, which man does not heed, and He allows man to live out and experience the consequences of his rebellion. For the past 6,000 years God has allowed men to see and experience the consequences of rebellion against God, to experience the pain, suffering and death brought about by rebellion. The ultimate end of rebellion being the destruction of all life, which God will prevent by His return at the end of the 6,000 years- 'If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened' Matt 24.

God allows us to see who we really are, what we are capable of. But He also shows us who He really is, what He is capable of.

After Eden, God interacts with a few individuals, but with men in general He is at a distance, He allows them to continue their rebellion. Men fill the earth with violence and grieve God, who destroys them with the flood. God then deals with Abraham and the nation of Israel, He moves closer and deals more intimately with men. Israel is given the law which she cannot keep and Israel rebels against God and is sent into exile.

God then sends His Son to earth for a time, He deals even more intimately with men, He moves closer. He provides redemption for mans' rebellion and provides an intimate relationship between God and man through Christ and His Holy Spirit, which some accept but many reject. Much of mankind is still at a distance.

So then God sends His Son to rule over mankind as God, as King, with men directly, physically interacting with God Himself. He moves even closer in proximity to men. But even in this most perfect of circumstances, with God living among men on the earth, men still rebel. This then could be a reason for the 1,000 year reign, to show who God is, how over the past 6,000 years He has made Himself known to men, how He is willing to come down to the level of men and set up a 1,000 period of peace and mercy, giving men another opportunity to accept God and reject rebellion.

But even in the most perfect of circumstances, men still rebel. So God's judgement of rebellion is shown to be just and right, rebellion cannot be allowed to continue, it must be dealt with. And so it is, at the GWTJ.

But God also shows how far He is willing to go to redeem men, to bring them to Himself, He is willing to get as close as He can.

[Looking4acity]

I am chiming in

Hi looking4acity - thanks for "Chiming in"

How about Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 47 and 48, Daniel 7:22

I have read the aforementioned passages of Scripture that you have provided.

Please prove how any of these passages of Scripture very clearly describe a "literal" Messianic Kingdom?

Thank you.

The verses repeat over and over that God will gather them to the mountains of Israel. Scripture describes the restoration and cleansing of the land with 'continual employment' and that it shall become 'as the garden of Eden', to be tilled and sown. Ruined cities become inhabited... the land is divided by lot for an inheritance that had once been given to the fathers with names of towns listed in the borders....begetting children. All seems literal to me. Maybe i can clench the deal with one more scripture..

And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 9:26

Chiming out

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B what I find as unfortunate is that members like you do not take the time to research what I have posted.

Jay Ross - very honestly I have attempted to research what you have written many times. Problem has been, is that you have consistently added or taken away from Scripture which changes the meaning of the message that the Word of God is trying to convey.

If the beasts who are wicked fallen heavenly hosts are judged in Isaiah 24:21-22 are imprisoned for many day is a cistern/pit then if they are thrown out of heaven at the beginning of the Millennium age and immediately imprisoned in the pit/bottomless pit for 1,000 years then they cannot be thrown into the lake of fire until the bottomless pit is unlocked towards the end of the Millennium Age. That is why I understand that the Chapters Rev 19 and 20 are parallel story lines with the same starting point, with both chapters ending towards the very end of the Millennium Age.

Let me say that this is a better explanation of why you believe as you do that I have ever seen you write. You really harp on Isiah 24:21-22 as if it the proverbial "deal maker" that proves your theory right. With your aforementioned statement, now I think that I understand how you believe as you do - however, the problem is that you still remain to ADD and/or take away sections of Scripture that "appear" to fit your own ideology. This is what I find most unfortunate - as it has been consistently proven that you do this.

That is why I understand that the Chapters Rev 19 and 20 are parallel story lines with the same starting point, with both chapters ending towards the very end of the Millennium Age.

Okay, if you believe that Revelation 19 and 20 have parallel story lines - then allow Scripture to speak for itself. Scripture is most certainly capable of doing this without any modification - and that includes "adding to" or "taking away from" to fit a certain ideology or theory. The Book of Revelation gives a very firm warning to those who "add to" or "take away" from the Words of that particular Book.

Is it possible that you can explain how these particular visions of John identified as the events that occur in Revelation 19 & 20 could actually "parallel" each other without your own private interpretation and/or modification? If you can do this, then I would be very glad to receive what you have to say.

Perhaps you may be able to edify the Body of Christ with what you see, and have learned from your own studies. But please Jay Ross - ALLOW Scripture to speak for itself.

[Jay Ross]

Mr B. what is good for the gander should also equally apply to the goose.
Mr. B. have you, by your own private understanding, added to the words and the context of the Book of Revelation.

Mr B. If I am wrong, then please show me how I am wrong using scripture that is not in dispute between us or any one else for that matter.

In this thread you have made extraordinary claims which you then say is the true interpretation of the scriptures. I just happen to disagree with your private interpretations for those passages and you then badger me for bringing to the debate another point of view which shows that your theories are not in line with scripture.

Mr. B. if you are allowed to bring your private interpretations to the thread, then anyone else should be allowed to do so as well without being abused and ridiculed in the manner that you do.

Mr B. you say that I am the problem but really, am I?

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B. you say that I am the problem but really, am I?

I'm not your Judge - but since you asked, all you have to do is look at your History on this Forum in communicating with others.

A Scripture has come to mind:

Titus 3:10-11 - New International Version (NIV)

10) Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11) You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

[Mr Baldy]

I am chiming in

Hi looking4acity - thanks for "Chiming in"

How about Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 47 and 48, Daniel 7:22

I have read the aforementioned passages of Scripture that you have provided.

Please prove how any of these passages of Scripture very clearly describe a "literal" Messianic Kingdom?

Thank you.

The verses repeat over and over that God will gather them to the mountains of Israel. Scripture describes the restoration and cleansing of the land with 'continual employment' and that it shall become 'as the garden of Eden', to be tilled and sown. Ruined cities become inhabited... the land is divided by lot for an inheritance that had once been given to the fathers with names of towns listed in the borders....begetting children. All seems literal to me. Maybe i can clench the deal with one more scripture..

And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Romans 9:26

Chiming out

Hi Looking4acity,

Again, I'm not so sure the passages that you have summited actually apply to a "literal" Millennial Kingdom. The question becomes is this metaphorical language to describe the Eternal Kingdom? That is the problem I am having with Scripture like that and Isaiah 65.

I think that 1whowaits has presented a case as well with Zechariah 14 - in that it also "appears" to be describing a very literal Millennial Kingdom. But even with that.... I cannot not totally embrace it at this moment. I'm still studying.

One of the problems that I have seen with potential evidence to prove a Millennial Kingdom, is that some are getting their interpretations from the Premillennial Camp - which often comes with very biased opinions, and Study Bible references.

As yet - I am still leaning on the Scriptures that seem to imply that it ALL ENDS when He Appears.

[Jay Ross]

Mr. B. there is no point in continuing this conversation, because of our abusive mannerisms in debunking another person's point of view with the claim that only your interpretation is the "true" interpretation of the scriptures.

Be at peace and if I am wrong that the "Rapture" is not for another 1,000 plus years and it happens within the next 30 years then I will be wrong, but that is not important to me as I will probably be pushing up roses before then, know what I mean.