To prove open hearts and minds

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To prove open hearts and minds

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:08 am

To prove open hearts and minds, let's do something probably never before attempted on this forum.

Here's how we do it....

Please list the weaknesses in your own personal ideas of Bible prophecy.
List those Texts or Areas that have the Possibility to Lessen the Strength of your current ideas rather than Strengthen it.

Are we able to prove that we are of an open mind and heart enough to disallow the Strength of our Own Opinions by exposing the weakness contained therein.

I will go first...

The greatest weakness in my position is to not have an Exact Date Absolutely Known in History regarding the Birth or Baptism of Christ.


I would suggest that even though I have this in the debate section, it is intended to not debate these thing so much...but we can of course debate....Keeping in mind the POINT of the thread is to Acknowledge Weakness, not the Strength of the Debate.

Who is of an Open mind and heart enough to go next?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:15 pm

ST, just for clarification...you are not asking for lists and lists of scripture that refer to your weakness of belief or understanding are you?

Are you asking for a simple statement listing the name or nature of your scriptural weakness without scriptural references?
I notice you did not label or name your "position." That's why I'm confused....
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:37 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:ST, just for clarification...you are not asking for lists and lists of scripture that refer to your weakness of belief or understanding are you?

Are you asking for a simple statement listing the name or nature of your scriptural weakness without scriptural references?
I notice you did not label or name your "position." That's why I'm confused....

Hi Abiding,
My position is "shorttrib/prewrath". It may be that a person can list one point or scripture at a time, or several points and scriptures that contribute to any weakness in their position. It's up to that individual.

A statement of position is good, but not needed, and may or not be made. It's not important to list an entire position. Many on the forum do not subscribe to any traditional position...or any more common one. They are then encouraged to list any weakness in their personal ideas that create there own personal difficult areas to reconcile with what they believe in prophecy.

thanx for joining in. :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:21 pm

I have a theory that the geographical shape of a kingdom resembles the beast described when discussing beast kingdoms.

I think most are historical. I have been able to identify three historical kingdoms and one emerging; but, not the beast from the land or the beast from the sea. The roman empire around the time of Christ resembles the dragon of Revelation 12 but identifying the heads and horns has proven difficult. The four headed leopard kingdom I believe to be the the Eastern Roman empire when divided by Diocletian . The four heads I believe to be the four Augustus(Augusti?) that ruled it before the re-merging of the east and west empires by Constantine. However, Diocletian setup the Tetrarchy, a system, where, during the split of the east and west, the entire empire was ruled by four rulers, two Augustus and two ceaser. Also, when Herod the Great died, the Judean kingdom was divided into a Tetrarchy of four rulers as well. If the four heads are the Tetrarcy, the theory does not work. Also, the fourth beast of Daniel does not have a description as resembling some beast like a lion or bear, so a map cannot be identified using the theory.

It is not that scriptures weaken the theory, it is my lack of understanding and historical knowledge that weakens the theory. The strongest argument for the theory is the transformation of lion with wings accurately describes the changes in the geography of the Aechmenid Empire under Cyrus the Great. The prediction of the emerging woman riding the beast is pretty strong - in my opinion - but that is prediction not historical fact.


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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby mark s on Mon May 01, 2017 8:26 am

Hi ST,

I'm a little mystified myself, albeit for a slightly different reason.

What is it that you want me to prove to you?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby shorttribber on Mon May 01, 2017 8:43 am

mark s wrote:Hi ST,

I'm a little mystified myself, albeit for a slightly different reason.

What is it that you want me to prove to you?

Love in Christ,
Mark

It is to prove how willing any of us are to admit any weakness in their currently held positions on Bible prophecy.

We all have a tendency to hold to our currently held positions like a Bulldog on a Hambone.

The result of such tenacity lessens the ability to look at information objectively.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby shorttribber on Mon May 01, 2017 8:47 am

keithareilly wrote:It is not that scriptures weaken the theory, it is my lack of understanding and historical knowledge that weakens the theory. The strongest argument for the theory is the transformation of lion with wings accurately describes the changes in the geography of the Aechmenid Empire under Cyrus the Great. The prediction of the emerging woman riding the beast is pretty strong - in my opinion - but that is prediction not historical fact.

Hi keith,
Thanx for your post. I think one of the other weaknesses in my position is my lack of understanding so many of the historic kingdoms in general.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby mark s on Mon May 01, 2017 10:52 am

shorttribber wrote:It is to prove how willing any of us are to admit any weakness in their currently held positions on Bible prophecy.

We all have a tendency to hold to our currently held positions like a Bulldog on a Hambone.

The result of such tenacity lessens the ability to look at information objectively.


Hi ST,

OK, thank you! That's what it sounded like, I didn't want to be wrong about this.

"We all have a tendency to hold to our currently held positions like a Bulldog on a Hambone."

Let me ask you. Do you believe this statement is actually true? All of us are this way?

OK, then there is the subsequent implication. Because of our tendency in this way, we all have diminished capacity to look at information objectively. Do you believe this is true?

If that is true, why are we even here debating if none of us have the ability to objectively perceive information?

But more to the point, I really don't have the interest in proving to you whether or not I honestly consider mine and others views, or that I'm willing to give a full presentation of my views including their weaknesses, or whether I'm woodenly dogmatic to what I've previously learned.

Is that how you see yourself?

Personally, I have no issues with presenting whatever I think of my theories, including both strengths and weakness. I feel that for the most part, we have that kind of a group.

Of course, that's no guarantee that they will always agree with me! :grin:

I don't believe I actually could prove to you or anyone else that I'm not hiding the fatal flaw to my view, and that I'm not interesting in learning, only in looking smart and right. How do you prove a negative? You can't.

Personally, I go into these discussions with the presupposition that people are being sincere with me, and that they honestly desire to discuss and learn. My experience is that for those individuals who have some other agenda, it becomes known over time.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby mark s on Mon May 01, 2017 11:10 am

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:It is to prove how willing any of us are to admit any weakness in their currently held positions on Bible prophecy.

We all have a tendency to hold to our currently held positions like a Bulldog on a Hambone.

The result of such tenacity lessens the ability to look at information objectively.


Hi ST,

OK, thank you! That's what it sounded like, I didn't want to be wrong about this.

"We all have a tendency to hold to our currently held positions like a Bulldog on a Hambone."

Let me ask you. Do you believe this statement is actually true? All of us are this way?

OK, then there is the subsequent implication. Because of our tendency in this way, we all have diminished capacity to look at information objectively. Do you believe this is true?

If that is true, why are we even here debating if none of us have the ability to objectively perceive information?

But more to the point, I really don't have the interest in proving to you whether or not I honestly consider mine and others views, or that I'm willing to give a full presentation of my views including their weaknesses, or whether I'm woodenly dogmatic to what I've previously learned.

Is that how you see yourself?

Personally, I have no issues with presenting whatever I think of my theories, including both strengths and weakness. I feel that for the most part, we have that kind of a group.

Of course, that's no guarantee that they will always agree with me! :grin:

I don't believe I actually could prove to you or anyone else that I'm not hiding the fatal flaw to my view, and that I'm not interesting in learning, only in looking smart and right. How do you prove a negative? You can't.

Personally, I go into these discussions with the presupposition that people are being sincere with me, and that they honestly desire to discuss and learn. My experience is that for those individuals who have some other agenda, it becomes known over time.

I think I've debated with a number of people who want to discuss and learn, and with those who want more just to convince. And that's OK. I feel like I know who's who.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby shorttribber on Mon May 01, 2017 12:48 pm

mark s wrote:OK, thank you! That's what it sounded like, I didn't want to be wrong about this."We all have a tendency to hold to our currently held positions like a Bulldog on a Hambone."Let me ask you. Do you believe this statement is actually true? All of us are this way?

If I believed it wasn't true, I wouldn't have said it mark.
And I do believe that all of us are this way to some degree, yes.

Notice, I said, to "Some Degree".
mark s wrote:OK, then there is the subsequent implication. Because of our tendency in this way, we all have diminished capacity to look at information objectively. Do you believe this is true? If that is true, why are we even here debating if none of us have the ability to objectively perceive information?

Your second sentence is much different from your first. In your first sentence you have accurately used "Diminished Capacity". In the second you said "if None of us have the ability".

It's not that None of us have the Ability at All mark, the point is that the Ability is "diminished", as you've said.
So, the Reason, the Why of this thread is to recognize it, acknowledge it, and address our tendency to do so.

mark s wrote:But more to the point, I really don't have the interest in proving to you whether or not I honestly consider mine and others views, or that I'm willing to give a full presentation of my views including their weaknesses, or whether I'm woodenly dogmatic to what I've previously learned.


I have not asked that any of those things be proven to me. This thread is to prove to ourselves these things.
That we, each of us, may be more aware of how objective we really are to other ideas in bible prophecy.

mark s wrote:Is that how you see yourself?

I don't understand this question. Are you asking if I see myself as dogmatic? I am dogmatic to some degree, yes. I will admit that.

On this forum I think most of us are dogmatic to a degree. That shouldn't come as news to any of us.
Please note again mark, I have used the words " to a degree".

I guess when I think of the word "dogmatic", I think of the definition as "stubborn", and to a degree, I think we can all admit to that.
mark s wrote:Personally, I have no issues with presenting whatever I think of my theories, including both strengths and weakness. I feel that for the most part, we have that kind of a group.

Agreed, and that is something I've seen from you, and could list examples of that. From you, I have seen that, but as a group, I think we could exercise it more.

I think this thread could encourage that.

mark s wrote:I don't believe I actually could prove to you or anyone else that I'm not hiding the fatal flaw to my view, and that I'm not interesting in learning, only in looking smart and right. How do you prove a negative? You can't.

Again, this is a thread to prove and reveal these things to ourselves, not to others.

mark s wrote:Personally, I go into these discussions with the presupposition that people are being sincere with me, and that they honestly desire to discuss and learn. My experience is that for those individuals who have some other agenda, it becomes known over time.

Agreed.
mark s wrote:I think I've debated with a number of people who want to discuss and learn, and with those who want more just to convince. And that's OK. I feel like I know who's who.

Agree on that too.

do appreciate your joining in mark, blessings to you brother :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby keithareilly on Mon May 01, 2017 5:05 pm

Actually,

I don't think each of us are being dogmatic (bulldog and ham bone) about our beliefs.
I think we each have certain things we value by which we evaluate scripture.

Personally, I like FulfilledProphecy so I study history and prophecy.
Seeing prophecy and its fulfillment help my faith.

But, I do enjoy different perspectives. And I like the reasons people hold to their views.
I learn about people and have learned to respect them because of how they view things, not because of what they believe.

Shorttrib and his Chiastic structure are interesting and provide enlightenment.
David's strength of faith makes me feel like a child.
Jay's big picture alternative interpretations provide out of the box viewpoints and checks and balances.
Ready1 sees things like a woven tapestry.
1Whowaits patiently waits out peoples perspectives.
Mr. Baldy like to cut through the rhetoric and get to the point.

So, people earn my respect not for what they believe but how their faith plays out in this forum.

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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby Jay Ross on Mon May 01, 2017 9:30 pm

Around 10 years ago, I was beginning to write about people inhabiting the dominions/domains of the four respective beasts and I was shouted down because I was daring to suggest back then that the beasts themselves we not of human form but that the beasts became manifested in the sea of people who exhibited their particular characteristics.

I also interacted with Jack Smith around this time and was suggesting that his Islamic paradigm, which was the basis of the book he wrote did not witness to my spirit. The book he wrote was, "Islam, the Cloak of the Anti Christ," and was published in 2011.

Being able to demonstrate with scripture that the understanding that we hold is supported by the scriptures is something that does not happen overnight. We can read scripture, over and over again and not see the significance it contains because of the blinkers we have and the rose coloured glasses that we use to read with.

I have had to be patient, to allow God to reveal, in his timing, the scriptures that support the views that I hold. I have also had to unlearn much as well.

I have had to learn to only drive in the holding pegs for scripture when the understanding is correct and to allow the rest of the scriptures around that possibly fixed point in time to float and settle of their own accord. That is, I have learnt to not force an outcome.

I have also had to relook at the common traditional English translations and figure out for myself whether or not the translation(s) was actually conveying the original intent of the source text.

I have learned to hold lightly what has been revealed and to wait for others to be able to prove or disprove what I have written.

Now that I have a retired wife, my time gallivanting around the countryside will increase and my times on forums will decrease.

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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby mark s on Tue May 02, 2017 11:07 am

Hi Jay,

Very well stated! I really appreciate your perspective on this.

:grin:

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue May 02, 2017 5:18 pm

shorttribber wrote:Please list the weaknesses in your own personal ideas of Bible prophecy.List those Texts or Areas that have the Possibility to Lessen the Strength of your current ideas rather than Strengthen it. Are we able to prove that we are of an open mind and heart enough to disallow the Strength of our Own Opinions by exposing the weakness contained therein.


Hi Shorty,

I will attempt to take a crack at what you are mentioning here. But I would like to first establish what I believe - followed by what may be a weakness to it. And for the sake of time, I can provide Scripture that supports both what I believe and the weakness at a later time.

1) First I Believe that Scripture clearly identifies a Pre Wrath Rapture of the Church.
Weakness: There is also very clear evidence that Scripture mentions a LAST DAY Resurrection of the
Just and the Unjust. The LAST DAY Resurrection clearly works in harmony of a POST Tribulation Rapture.

2) I Believe that the 70th Week has been totally and completely Fulfilled. Meaning ALL the requirements set forth in
Daniel 9:24 and the AOD that has the number of days as 1290, and 1335 associated with it mentioned in
Daniel 12:11-12.
Weakness: The 70 weeks that have been determined can be separated by time. Meaning that 3.5 years have
been Fulfilled and there is 3.5 years of the 70 week that remain. The separation doesn't negate that time continued.
Weakness II: Jesus refers to an AOD mentioned by the Prophet Daniel - thus He could possibly be
referring to Daniel 9:27(b) - and this prophecy will be Fulfilled by the Antichrist that shall Come - which could mean
with careful examination that the 70 week have NOT been fulfilled in it's entirety.
Weakness III: If there is a very literal Millennial Kingdom - then the 70 weeks have not been determined.
And the Day of the Lord factors in - which could mean that At His Coming the LAST DAY factors in and means that the
requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 will not be Fulfilled until the "Little Season" has Ended and He hands the
Kingdom over to God the Father - so that He may be ALL in ALL. This certainly puts a very different perspective on the
Day of the Lord, as well as how it works with identifying the LAST DAY.

3) I Believe that the Possibility remains that there is no literal Millennial Kingdom - and that when Christ Appears it is
the LAST DAY. It ALL ENDS at His Appearing; the Great White Throne Judgment commences and Eternity exists.
Weakness: Scripture seems to identify a very literal Millennial Kingdom - in which death, sin, and
rebellion still occurs and the requirements set forth in Zechariah 14 will come to pass.

4) There could very well be a very Literal Future Week Remaining. Meaning the "he" identified in Daniel 9:27 is the
Coming Antichrist.
Weakness: Identifying the TRUE "he" in this Prophecy.

In closing, I don't know if this is what you were looking for on this Thread - but certainly it should solicit some responses.
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 03, 2017 1:20 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Please list the weaknesses in your own personal ideas of Bible prophecy.List those Texts or Areas that have the Possibility to Lessen the Strength of your current ideas rather than Strengthen it. Are we able to prove that we are of an open mind and heart enough to disallow the Strength of our Own Opinions by exposing the weakness contained therein.


Hi Shorty,

I will attempt to take a crack at what you are mentioning here. But I would like to first establish what I believe - followed by what may be a weakness to it. And for the sake of time, I can provide Scripture that supports both what I believe and the weakness at a later time.

1) First I Believe that Scripture clearly identifies a Pre Wrath Rapture of the Church.
Weakness: There is also very clear evidence that Scripture mentions a LAST DAY Resurrection of the
Just and the Unjust. The LAST DAY Resurrection clearly works in harmony of a POST Tribulation Rapture.

2) I Believe that the 70th Week has been totally and completely Fulfilled. Meaning ALL the requirements set forth in
Daniel 9:24 and the AOD that has the number of days as 1290, and 1335 associated with it mentioned in
Daniel 12:11-12.
Weakness: The 70 weeks that have been determined can be separated by time. Meaning that 3.5 years have
been Fulfilled and there is 3.5 years of the 70 week that remain. The separation doesn't negate that time continued.
Weakness II: Jesus refers to an AOD mentioned by the Prophet Daniel - thus He could possibly be
referring to Daniel 9:27(b) - and this prophecy will be Fulfilled by the Antichrist that shall Come - which could mean
with careful examination that the 70 week have NOT been fulfilled in it's entirety.
Weakness III: If there is a very literal Millennial Kingdom - then the 70 weeks have not been determined.
And the Day of the Lord factors in - which could mean that At His Coming the LAST DAY factors in and means that the
requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 will not be Fulfilled until the "Little Season" has Ended and He hands the
Kingdom over to God the Father - so that He may be ALL in ALL. This certainly puts a very different perspective on the
Day of the Lord, as well as how it works with identifying the LAST DAY.

3) I Believe that the Possibility remains that there is no literal Millennial Kingdom - and that when Christ Appears it is
the LAST DAY. It ALL ENDS at His Appearing; the Great White Throne Judgment commences and Eternity exists.
Weakness: Scripture seems to identify a very literal Millennial Kingdom - in which death, sin, and
rebellion still occurs and the requirements set forth in Zechariah 14 will come to pass.

4) There could very well be a very Literal Future Week Remaining. Meaning the "he" identified in Daniel 9:27 is the
Coming Antichrist.
Weakness: Identifying the TRUE "he" in this Prophecy.

In closing, I don't know if this is what you were looking for on this Thread - but certainly it should solicit some responses.

I think you've given a very clear and honest list....thank you Mr. B., well done.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: To prove open hearts and minds

Postby Exit40 on Wed May 03, 2017 1:56 pm

My weakness is my lack of understanding of the Feasts, their meanings in time, and in Prophecy. I know they are all related to life on this dust ball, but haven't been able to figure it out.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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