The beinning of the 70th week

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The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:36 pm

I would posit the question on whether the 70th week could begin, and we not know it.

While scripture has much to say about the latter half of the 70th week, down to specific number of months and days, such detail is not given about the first half of the 70th week.

We deduce that there will be a 70th week from Daniel 9, 70 weeks have been decreed and 7 weeks and 62 weeks have passed leaving 1 week unfulfilled. From Daniel's description it does appear that this 70th week will end at the time of armageddon, when 'the end that is decreed is poured out on him'.

We also know that something preceeds the midpoint of the week as described by Jesus in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, the 'beginning of birth pangs'. During this period, that precedes the AOD and the GT, nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines, earthquakes and pestilences. As there have always been wars and famines during the past 6,000 years, Jesus appears to indicate that these events will be of a much greater intensity thn those that have occurred in the past.

We know the endpoint of the 70th week, and have details about the midpoint, but the beginning point is somewhat vague. Daniel 9 states that 'He will confirm a covenant with many for 1 seven', and then moves on to the middle of the week- 'in the middle of the seven.'

Does confirming a covenant for 1 seven mean that the first event of the week is that confirmation? Or is the confirmation something that occurs toward the beginning of the week and 1 seven refers to the time period that is confirmed, and not that this is the first event of the week.

That scripture lists with great specificity the events and time periods of the midpoint and second part of the week while giving very few details about the first half, especially its beginning, could suggest that it may be difficult to tell when the 70th week indeed begins, there may not be a notable specific event that occurs on the first day or days of the 70th week.

So if the covenant has not yet been confirmed, but events increase in intensity and appear consistent with the beginning of birth pangs, could the 70th week have already begun and that beginning point not be realized?
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:35 pm

1whowaits wrote:<snip>

We deduce that there will be a 70th week from Daniel 9, 70 weeks have been decreed and 7 weeks and 62 weeks have passed leaving 1 week unfulfilled. From Daniel's description it does appear that this 70th week will end at the time of Armageddon, when 'the end that is decreed is poured out on him'.

<snip>


What is the end that is decreed will be poured out on him?

Who is the him in this case?

Knowing who the "who" is helps us to determine what the "end that is decreed will be poured out on him" is.

It is my understanding that the "him" is Satan and the "decreed end that is poured out on him" is Christs disposal of Satan in Revelation 20 into the Lake of Fire as Satan is the one who makes desolate the lives of people.

This event occurs after Satan goes out to draw the nations into battle against Jerusalem one last time after he is released from the bottomless pit. So this decreed punishment for Satan occurs just before the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of Revelation 20, which occurs at the end of the Millennium Age.

So if we count back three and a half years from when Satan is punished by being thrown into the Lake of Fire, then this event is in our distant future. It occurs after the Gog Magog Battles.

On the other hand the battle at Armageddon is in our near future and the sign that this event will occur in our near future has already gone out as prophesised in Revelation 16:12-16. This event is the fulfilment of the 2,300 years of the heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God in Jerusalem and when the king of the earth are judged on the earth at Armageddon, then all of Israel will be saved.

Now if the "70th" week, i.e. the week of years mentioned in Daniel 9:27, is contiguous then the beginning of the week of years is also a distant future event.

Perhaps this, that I have presented above, is what God foretold to us in the scriptures, but many believe otherwise and have their theories to the contrary.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby brett on Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:58 pm

.
1whowaits wrote:I would posit the question on whether the 70th week could begin, and we not know it.


Yes Daniels 70th week could start without us knowing. It doesn't say that it will be a public known event. The first things that would signal to me it already started are:

(1) A new dominant Leader has just arrived on the World stage
(2) There are significant headlines of an impeding World War and/or a significant War starts
(3) Sacrifises and Offerings are started up again in Israel in a public manner. As far as I can tell sacrifices and offerings start up again on day 250 of Daniels 70th Week (of 2550 days)

.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:09 pm

Jay, the 'him' of Daniel 9 would appear to be the AC, the AC puts an end to sacrifice and offering, which is also discussed in Dan 8 of the 'little horn, the AC, (it took away the daily sacrifice..the daily sacrifice were given over to it..'.

The end that is poured out on the AC is destruction in the lake of fire after his capture and defeat by Jesus at armageddon, noted in Rev 19, and Daniel 7, 8, 11. I would disagree with your view of the he being Satan, and the time frame you lay out.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:41 pm

Brett, i would agree with your view, it is likely that the events will tell us that the week has begun, the beginning date may come and go without notice.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:51 pm

1whowaits wrote:Jay, the 'him' of Daniel 9 would appear to be the AC, the AC puts an end to sacrifice and offering, which is also discussed in Dan 8 of the 'little horn, the AC, (it took away the daily sacrifice..the daily sacrifice were given over to it..'.

The end that is poured out on the AC is destruction in the lake of fire after his capture and defeat by Jesus at armageddon, noted in Rev 19, and Daniel 7, 8, 11. I would disagree with your view of the he being Satan, and the time frame you lay out.


In Revelation 19, The Beast and the False Prophet, i.e. the Little Horn are thrown into the Lake of fire after Jesus is given dominion over the people of the earth and the rejoicing begins in the heavens. God gives Jesus, the Son of Man dominion over the peoples of the earth and that the people of the earth should worship Him, which occurs after the four beasts and the Little Horn are judged in heaven as per Daniel 7:11-12 and Isaiah 24:21-22 and imprisoned in the Pit, i.e. the bottomless pit here on the earth to await the time of their punishment, i.e. being dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

Armageddon is in our near future, but the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the Lake of Fire by Christ is very much a distant future event.

Shalom
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:21 pm

Being of the pre trib rapture mindset, I do not think the 70th week could start without our knowledge. :mrgreen:
Though it could start without the rest of the world's knowledge?

RT
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:42 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Being of the pre trib rapture mindset, I do not think the 70th week could start without our knowledge. :mrgreen:
Though it could start without the rest of the world's knowledge?

RT


It really depends on when the Rapture is. Is the rapture a near future event or a distant future event?

If the Rapture is a near future event and the Daniel 9:27 70th week is also a near future event, then the Pre trib rapture, by definition, will, in all likelihood, occur before the 70th week begins, but that really depends on who we believe the "he" is who makes a covenant with many and whether or not there is a prolonged "gap" between the making of the Daniel 7:27 covenant and the time of the arrival of the one who makes desolate.

Now if the Rapture is a distant future event, then the present descendant generations, alive at this present time, will not be raptured in their lifetime and the question as to whether the Daniel 9:27 70th week has started or not becomes trivial to some extent for us at this present time. Again it really depends on who we believe the "he" is who makes the covenant with many and wether or not there is a time gap embedded within this particular prophecy.

The question becomes difficult to answer if there is a time gap embedded within the Daniel 9:27 prophecy.

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:24 pm

RT, apart from rapture timing views, what really determines the start of the 70th week? The covenant is confirmed for 1 seven, is scripture definitively stating that this event begins the 70th week? Or is this an event that occurs during the 70th week that has a certain time associated with it? Does the AC determine when the 70th week begins? Why is there no other scripture mentioning the strengthening if this is such a critical event?

My point is that the lack of information about the beginning of the 70th week could suggest that the beginning may pass without a many noticing, setting the stage for a 'false flag' event like Gog-Magog, and a great falling away. What if what appeared to be armageddon came and went with no rapture, no return, no obvious covenant being confirmed beforehand?
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:36 pm

1whowaits wrote:We deduce that there will be a 70th week from Daniel 9, 70 weeks have been decreed and 7 weeks and 62 weeks have passed leaving 1 week unfulfilled.


Hi 1whowaits,

I don't know if you have read some of the more recent threads on the Prophecy Debate Section of this Forum - because had you done so, you would probably realize that are a few of us who believe that there is NO FINAL week remaining.

This would meant that the 70 week have been fulfilled - and that there is no mysterious; very unintelligible or unimaginable "GAP" that remains in time that will through some form of osmosis rejoin itself to time as we know it; at some unknown, unforeseen period of time in the future.

Some, mainly myself have come to this conclusion as the "GAP" theory makes absolutely no sense at all. One would have to very literally use a form of imagination that involves extreme "sensationalism" and "sophistry" - and further more could be associated with having an imaginary friend that some have had as a child because they had no toys to play with.

It is very clear that Scripture speaks of a very literal, very future 3.5 year period of time that remains. There is absolutely NO evidence that the 70 weeks did not run consecutively in time itself, nor does Scripture beg to reason that there is a time period called the "Church Age" that would cause an unknown "GAP" in time to justify some sort of future prophetical existence.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:27 am

Mr Baldy...

If someone could provide you with a scripture that has an obvious "time gap" would that influence any of your thinking?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:28 pm

I would expect to see something big happen 6.3 years (2300 days) before the return of Jesus, since Daniel gives us that timeline. Most likely the 3rd temple.

IF (not saying for sure) Trump is the AC then the first seal would have been opened when he won the election. His son in law Jared Kushner could become the false prophet since he's an orthodox Jew.

I read an article explaining that there will be 2 major solar eclipses crossing the United States forming a big X across the country... the first one happening this year (the year of jubilee in Israel)... and the second one happening again in 7 years (2024)
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:35 pm

Ready1 wrote:Mr Baldy...

If someone could provide you with a scripture that has an obvious "time gap" would that influence any of your thinking?


Hi Ready 1,

Yes....absolutely - if it can be done without "reading into" Scripture; or applying some sort of "sensationalism" or "sophistry" to it.

After all Scripture does mention this:

2 Timothy 3:16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness


I for one am certainly not above being taught, reproved, or corrected. Please, if you have anything Scriptural to prove me wrong, or edify my understanding - then by all means please do so. I welcome it!
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:24 pm

Mr B, regarding a future 70th week, the question would be what is God's future plan for Israel? According to Zech 12-14, at the time 'all nations' gather to Jerusalem (armageddon), Israel will look upon the One who was Pierced (Jesus) and mourn for Him (repent). A spirit of grace and supplication will be poured out on Israel and they will be cleansed from sin and impurity ( sin forgiven, atonement made, transgression finished). Prophets will be removed (prophecy will end, as will the visions of prophets). Jesus will be king over the whole earth, including Israel (who anoint their Kings), and will reign from Jerusalem where He will be worshiped as King and the Lord Almighty (the Most Holy, the Righteousness who lasts forever)at the feast of Tabernacles.

Has God's future plan for Israel been fulfilled yet? Does God's future plan sound like anything found in Dan 9 in the context of the 70 weeks? (finish transgression, put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up vision and prophecy, and anoint the Most Holy).

If the goals set for Israel in Dan 9 have not yet been met, and we know that they will be met in the future, then they will need a period of time to get things done. Fortunately there does appear to be a future 70th week for Israel.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:48 pm

Mr B, as far as the theory that the week has already been partially fulfilled by Jesus, their is no reference to Jesus confirming a covenant with anyone for 1 seven. Jesus is repeatedly associated with an everlasting covenant 'I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant....I will be their God, and they will be my people' Ezek 37.

Regarding the fulfillment of Dan 9, the question should be-' in reference to Israel', did Jesus or will Jesus confirm a covenant for 1 seven? The answer is no.

In reference to Israel, did Jesus put an end to sacrifice and offering? Jesus made the offering for sin void but the rest of the offerings and sacrifices continued in the temple after His resurrection and ascension, the temple that the early Christians worshiped at. And according to Zech 14 there will be sacrifices in Jerusalem during the reign of Jesus as King, if He put an end to them then why would He tolerate them in His kingdom?

In reference to Israel, does Jesus set up an abomination in the temple? On the contrary Jesus rebuilds the temple according to Zech 6 'the Branch..will branch out and from His place and rebuild the temple of the Lord..' Jesus will also reign from the temple during the millenium- 'the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established...many peoples will say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob..He will teach us His ways...He will judge between nations...they will beat their swords into plowshares..'Isa 2

In reference to Israel, does Jesus come to His end? No, Jesus becomes Israel's king forever.

So it would appear that the 70th week of Dan 9 has not been partially fulfilled at all, there are still 7 future years' in reference to Israel'.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:13 pm

EC, interesting that you should mention the year of Jubilee. Dan 9 breaks up the 69 weeks into 7 sevens and 62 sevens, the 7 sevens being the same counting for the timing of the year of Jubilee.

Israel was to count off periods of 7 years, the 7th year being a Sabbath year, and after 7 Sabbaths the 50th year would be the Year of Jubilee. The Sabbaths were to be counted when Israel was in the land and after they had sowed the fields for 6 years (Lev 25). According to a statement by Caleb in the book of Joshua, the land was not fully divided up and settled until 7 years after they first entered the land. Tradition has it that the counting for the Sabbath years was delayed by 7 years until all had been able to settle and plow the land for 6 years.

In the present day Israel did not fully enter the land until 1967, when she retook Jerusalem and Judea. After that it did take time for settlements to be made and land plowed and sowed. Could it be that there would be a seven year delay in the counting of the Sabbath year as there was when Israel entered the land in the OT?

If that were the case then the first 7th year for Israel after fully entering the land would be 1973, the first seventh possibly not counted as a Sabbath, which was also the year in which a war did occur on the Day of Atonement, ironically the first day of the Year of Jubilee when it was to be celebrated (Lev 25).

The years for Israel began and ended in the spring according to God's calendar, so if there were the 7 year delay, the first year for counting of the Sabbaths and ultimately the year of Jubilee would begin in the spring of 1974. 50 years later would occur in the spring of 2023 to the spring of 2024.

Seven years earlier would be when?

Also interesting to me is that Isa 61 and 63 appear to associate the Year of Jubilee, the year of the Lord's favor/redemption, with the day of vengeance, when the nations are trampled, aka armageddon.

Until something occurs this is obviously theoretical, but it was my motivation in asking the opening question.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:54 pm

Hi Ready 1,

Yes....absolutely - if it can be done without "reading into" Scripture; or applying some sort of "sensationalism" or "sophistry" to it.

After all Scripture does mention this:
2 Timothy 3:16 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness



I for one am certainly not above being taught, reproved, or corrected. Please, if you have anything Scriptural to prove me wrong, or edify my understanding - then by all means please do so. I welcome it!


Then Mr. Baldy I would use Isaiah 61:1-2 as a scripture that has a massive “gap”; and the evidence which I would offer is that Jesus himself recognized this gap and directed our attention to it by his words. Here is Isaiah 61:1-2

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God;


This Isaiah passage is part of a larger passage that I see as starting back in Isaiah 59 which speaks of a Redeemer which shall come to Zion. Jesus then reads this passage in the synagogue in Nazareth, his hometown, in Luke 4:16-21. What is so intriguing is that he does not quote it in its entirety. But rather he quotes a portion of it which applies to his time frame in Nazareth.

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.


Jesus tells them that Isaiah 61:1-2a is fulfilled in their hearing on that very day. But look at the portion which he does not quote: “…and the day of vengeance of our God.”

I would submit to you that the reason that Jesus did not quote “…and the day of vengeance of our God” was for the simple reason that that portion of the passage was not fulfilled by Jesus on the day that he read this passage in Nazareth. In fact, the day of vengeance of our God has not yet occurred and will not occur until his wrath is poured out upon the enemies of the Lord during the final time frame culminating with Armageddon.

Thus I would submit to you that there is a 2000+ year gap in the book of Isaiah, Chapter 61 between the “acceptable year of the LORD" and "the day of vengeance of our God". I also submit that there is no "reading into" this Scripture; or applying some sort of "sensationalism" or "sophistry" to it.

It is my opinion that a major portion of the prophecy of rest of the chapter of Isaiah 61 will also occur in the future as well, but after the vengeance of God is poured out.

Not every scripture tells the whole story. That’s why we study the scriptures and attempt to understand how they all fit together.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:24 pm

Ready 1, I would agree, in Isa 61 Jesus is describing aspects of His first and second coming, separated by a 'gap' or extended period of time. By stopping of His reading at the year of the Lord's favor, He appears to be indicating that the day of Vengeance had not yet come, but as He associated the passage with Himself, He appears to be pointing to a future fulfillment of the rest of the passage by Himself. The depiction of the release of prisoners, the proclaiming of freedom for the captives, the proclaiming of the year of the Lord's favor, would be consistent with the Year of Jubilee as described in Lev 25, the year of redemption for Israel, Jesus being the ultimate redeemer.

In Isa 63 Jesus makes clear what He refers to as the Day of vengeance, the trampling of the nations, and associates it with the Year of redemption, the year of Jubilee being the time of redeeming.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:37 am

Ready1 wrote:<snip>

I would submit to you that the reason that Jesus did not quote “…and the day of vengeance of our God” was for the simple reason that that portion of the passage was not fulfilled by Jesus on the day that he read this passage in Nazareth. In fact, the day of vengeance of our God has not yet occurred and will not occur until his wrath is poured out upon the enemies of the Lord during the final time frame culminating with Armageddon.

Thus I would submit to you that there is a 2000+ year gap in the book of Isaiah, Chapter 61 between the “acceptable year of the LORD" and "the day of vengeance of our God". I also submit that there is no "reading into" this Scripture; or applying some sort of "sensationalism" or "sophistry" to it.

It is my opinion that a major portion of the prophecy of rest of the chapter of Isaiah 61 will also occur in the future as well, but after the vengeance of God is poured out.

<snip>


The time of judgement of the wicked fallen heavenly hosts will be associated with the time of Armageddon, but the wrath of God and His punishment will not occur for many days after that time of judgement and will only occur after the God/Magog battles occur. It is not until after the 1,000 years of imprisonment that Satan and the wicked angels, who are in league with him, are released for a little while and they are able to go out to draw the nations, in our distant future, into rebelling and falling away from God and to join with them to go up against Jerusalem and God.

Now Isaiah 61:4 has embedded in it a two age time gap between when the iniquities of the sins of the fathers of Israel start to be visited upon their children and their children's children and the redeemed who will begin to repair the ruined cities which have been devastated. This time gap is hidden in the "dowr waadowr" phrase which as been traditionally translated as "many generation" but should be understood to be translated as "and age plus an age" where "dowr" can also have the meaning of "an age."

The redemption of the House of Israel will occur when the fullness in time of the Heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary has run its prophesied 2,300 years. The fullness in time of the trampling of the Sanctuary in Jerusalem will also occur at the time of Judgement of the Kings of the earth at the place known as Armageddon.

Ready1 I would submit to you that there is a 3,000 + year gap between when Jesus began His ministry, and the day of vengeance of our Lord, occurs. That is when the wicked are dispatched into the Lake of Fire to endure their everlasting punishment.

We both agree that there will be a time of battle associated with the vengeance of the Lord. However, we seem to disagree as to when these named battles take place.

I also submit that there is no "reading into" Scripture; or applying some sort of "sensationalism" or "sophistry" in what I have written above.

Shalom
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:57 pm

Ready1 wrote:I would submit to you that the reason that Jesus did not quote “…and the day of vengeance of our God” was for the simple reason that that portion of the passage was not fulfilled by Jesus on the day that he read this passage in Nazareth. In fact, the day of vengeance of our God has not yet occurred and will not occur until his wrath is poured out upon the enemies of the Lord during the final time frame culminating with Armageddon.Thus I would submit to you that there is a 2000+ year gap in the book of Isaiah, Chapter 61 between the “acceptable year of the LORD" and "the day of vengeance of our God". I also submit that there is no "reading into" this Scripture; or applying some sort of "sensationalism" or "sophistry" to it.
'


Ready1,

Respectively - the aforementioned passage of Scripture is not enough evidence to conclude that there is "any" portion in time that would necessitate a "GAP", or in essence suggest that time has stopped only because Jesus did not quote the entire passage.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:38 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Respectively - the aforementioned passage of Scripture is not enough evidence to conclude that there is "any" portion in time that would necessitate a "GAP", or in essence suggest that time has stopped only because Jesus did not quote the entire passage.


I am in no way suggesting that time has stopped, I am merely showing that there is a gap in the fulfillment of this specific scripture. A portion of this scripture was fulfilled at Jesus first coming, and a portion of it will be fulfilled at his second coming. Jesus did not quote the entire passage for the simple reason that it was not completely fulfilled at his first advent. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:25 am

Ready1 wrote:I am in no way suggesting that time has stopped, I am merely showing that there is a gap in the fulfillment of this specific scripture. A portion of this scripture was fulfilled at Jesus first coming, and a portion of it will be fulfilled at his second coming. Jesus did not quote the entire passage for the simple reason that it was not completely fulfilled at his first advent


Again, there is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that Jesus stopped reading this passage of Scripture because some "think" He did so, because it was not completely fulfilled. But I respect your opinion.

I am very glad that you have not suggested that time stopped. This would mean that the prophecies mentioned in Isaiah 61:1-2 are not a continuum in order to complete Daniel's 70th week - as some would suggest, but very different, very individual, very separate prophecies that happen in different time periods.

So this so-called "GAP" theory doesn't apply.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:44 pm

It is common in prophetic scripture to describe events that have already been fulfilled (from our perspective) along with events that still have future fulfillment together, leaving out any mention of a time period in between. Some refer to this as 'telescoping,' the events appear compressed when in reality they are drawn out over time. Isa 61 is an example of this as are the 'weeks' of Daniel 9.

To say that the 70 weeks have all run consecutively and are fulfilled already is one point of view. But considering the many passages that describe the AC and what he does in Israel and the temple (in Daniel, Matt 24, 2 Thess 2, Rev), it is clear that there is still some part of the 70 weeks yet to be fulfilled.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:58 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Again, there is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that Jesus stopped reading this passage of Scripture because some "think" He did so, because it was not completely fulfilled.


The evidence is in the simple fact that even yet today, the "day of vengeance of our God" has not yet occurred, while according to Jesus very words, the rest of the passage was fulfilled on that day, in their hearing.

Do you think that the day of vengeance of our God HAS occurred? Would you see a day of vengeance & a day of wrath as similar/same? Wouldn't Luke be a credible witness to suggest that Jesus stopped reading after the phrase "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

I'm curious?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:08 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Again, there is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that Jesus stopped reading this passage of Scripture because some "think" He did so, because it was not completely fulfilled



Ready1 wrote:The evidence is in the simple fact that even yet today, the "day of vengeance of our God" has not yet occurred, while according to Jesus very words, the rest of the passage was fulfilled on that day, in their hearing. Do you think that the day of vengeance of our God HAS occurred? Would you see a day of vengeance & a day of wrath as similar/same? Wouldn't Luke be a credible witness to suggest that Jesus stopped reading after the phrase "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. "I'm curious?


Ready1,

What you have been writing thus far is a very clear example of "reading into Scripture". While it is very true that the "day of vengeance of our God" has not yet occurred, this alone gives no absolute evidence that it relates to a "GAP" in time as it relates to the 70th week.

What relates to the 70th week is what this discussion is about. The 70th week is OVER, done, and we have moved on as time has continued. You have attempted to tie the "reason" why Jesus stopped reading a portion of Isaiah 61:2 into this very unintelligible "GAP" period - when these are very apparent separate Prophecies. Because He stopped reading there, may be because it had not been fulfilled - but it has nothing to do with the 70th week not being fulfilled. That is the subject matter of this thread.

While again, I respect your opinion, you're grabbing at straws. Jesus was crucified and subsequently Resurrected in the 70th week - and time continued. There is however a final 3.5 year period of prophetic time that is mentioned in the future prior to His Return. That is when the "day of vengeance of our God" will be fulfilled. But again, this is a separate Prophecy.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:24 am

1whowaits wrote:To say that the 70 weeks have all run consecutively and are fulfilled already is one point of view. But considering the many passages that describe the AC and what he does in Israel and the temple (in Daniel, Matt 24, 2 Thess 2, Rev), it is clear that there is still some part of the 70 weeks yet to be fulfilled.


1whowaits,

Based on what you have wrote in your aforementioned comments, it is apparent that you believe in the "GAP" theory as well. Has it ever come to your attention that the final 3.5 year period of time may be a very separate prophecy than the 70th week? Could it be possible that we have always ASSUMMED that the 70th week was never completed? Scripture never mentions a future 7 year period - it does however, mention a future 3.5 year period of time.

I'm asking because it has been brought to my attention that Jesus was crucified in the 70th week. I initially missed it, but Scripture is very clear about this:

Daniel 9:25-26 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

25) So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26) Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


Seven weeks and Sixty-Two weeks = 69 weeks. In the aforementioned passage of Scripture it clearly states AFTER the 69 weeks Messiah is cut off. That makes His Crucifixion occur in the 70th week.

In learning this, this may just give you a new perspective on whom the "he" is in Daniel 9:27.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:17 pm

Mr B, the statement that after the 69 weeks the Anointed One is cut off does not necessarily mean that the cutting off occurred during the 70th week, it does not necessarily imply that the weeks run consecutively. The passage describes 69 weeks , the cutting off, war, and then mentions 1 seven, giving the appearance of describing the 1 seven separately from the 69.

Based on this statement alone it is difficult to say definitively whether the 70 weeks run consecutively or the last week is separated from the 69 weeks, either is possible, although a separation appears more consistent with how the passage is written.

One must then refer to other statements of Dan 9, and whether there is any future fulfillment of them. The goals of Dan 9 for Israel during the 70 weeks have not yet been completely fulfilled, for Israel. While from an individual Christian point of view many of the goals have been fulfilled for those who have accepted Christ, for Israel, most remain unfulfilled- 'Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city..'. Israel has not repented or put an end to sin or transgression, Israel has not atoned for or accepted atonement for wickedness, Israel has not sealed up vision and prophecy, nor has Israel anointed the Most Holy.

As the goals for Israel have not been fulfilled, there would then be a future time for fulfillment, indicating that the 70 weeks have not been completed. That Israel will fulfill these goals is confirmed in Zech 12-14, when Jesus returns at armageddon, the goals set will not remain unfulfilled by Israel.

This would indicate that the 70th week remains to be fulfilled at a future time and as the 69 weeks have already past, the 69 weeks and the 70th week are separate periods of time.

As far as who the 'he' is, he is not Jesus, as Jesus did not confirm any covenant for 1 seven, Jesus did not put an end to all sacrifice and offering, Jesus did not desolate the temple, and Jesus will not come to His end.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:13 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:What you have been writing thus far is a very clear example of "reading into Scripture". While it is very true that the "day of vengeance of our God" has not yet occurred, this alone gives no absolute evidence that it relates to a "GAP" in time as it relates to the 70th week.

What relates to the 70th week is what this discussion is about. The 70th week is OVER, done, and we have moved on as time has continued. You have attempted to tie the "reason" why Jesus stopped reading a portion of Isaiah 61:2 into this very unintelligible "GAP" period - when these are very apparent separate Prophecies. Because He stopped reading there, may be because it had not been fulfilled - but it has nothing to do with the 70th week not being fulfilled. That is the subject matter of this thread.

While again, I respect your opinion, you're grabbing at straws. Jesus was crucified and subsequently Resurrected in the 70th week - and time continued. There is however a final 3.5 year period of prophetic time that is mentioned in the future prior to His Return. That is when the "day of vengeance of our God" will be fulfilled. But again, this is a separate Prophecy.


Remember my original question, Mr Baldy. I asked you...

If someone could provide you with a scripture that has an obvious "time gap" would that influence any of your thinking?


I have given you a scripture with an obvious time gap. I have not attempted to tie it to the 70th week or the final 3.5 years. But this scripture makes it obvious that not every scripture gives a complete time frame for the topic in question. I repudiate your claim that I have "read into scripture".

Now, however, I will attempt to make that very link which does tie it to the final 3.5 years

Jesus fulfilled the part of Isaiah 61 that he quoted in Luke 4 because he said "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." And Jesus will also be the one to proclaim the "day of vengeance of our God" as Luke records in Chapter 21.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


Paul also shares the same information that Luke provided as well.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


And this does happen in the period of time which immediately precedes the establishment of Christ's kingdom on the earth. And in fact, it happens after the time frame of the abomination of desolation, as shown in both Mark 13:14-26 and Matt 24:15-30. This places it squarely in the final seven years prior to Christ's earthly kingdom being established, and in fact within the final 3.5 years. And while you have adamantly stated that this is not in the seventieth week of Daniel, Daniel says that the AOD occurs in the last week, which places Jesus fulfillment of "the day of vengeance of our God" in the final or 70th week as well.

Daniel's statement establishing the AOD in the final week is as follows.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:00 pm

1whowaits wrote:Mr B, the statement that after the 69 weeks the Anointed One is cut off does not necessarily mean that the cutting off occurred during the 70th week, it does not necessarily imply that the weeks run consecutively. The passage describes 69 weeks , the cutting off, war, and then mentions 1 seven, giving the appearance of describing the 1 seven separately from the 69.


I disagree. "AFTER" means "AFTER".

However, you are correct that AFTER the 69 weeks, the" cutting off, war" - but you are INCORRECT stating that "then mentions 1 seven".
The "midst" of the week has to be established BEFORE a "cutting off" can occur - therefore the crucifixion occurred in the 70th week - Scripture is very CLEAR on that . And again, you are correct for saying that the "1 seven" is separate from the 69 - as 70 follows 69. :mrgreen:

1whowaits wrote:This would indicate that the 70th week remains to be fulfilled at a future time and as the 69 weeks have already past, the 69 weeks and the 70th week are separate periods of time.


Again I disagree with your aforementioned statement.

1whowaits, can you please just view Scripture - without applying any preconceived end time eschatology to it?

Look at what it says. The 70 were completed. We've moved on, there is no "magical"; "imaginary GAP" in time. And yes, 69 weeks and the 70th week are separate periods of time - that just happen to run consecutively - hence being identified as 69 & 70.

Again, Scripture mentions a very future 3.5 year prophetic period of Time. This a time when an AOD will occur
(as there have been AOD's in the past); it will be a time where the coming Final Antichrist will rule
(there have also been prior Antichrists); it will also be a time where the Two Witnesses will prophesy - AND it will be a time that the "woman" is nourished in the wilderness - so my question becomes:

Why does the Final 3.5 years HAVE to be united to the 70th week?
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:15 pm

Ready1 wrote:And this does happen in the period of time which immediately precedes the establishment of Christ's kingdom on the earth. And in fact, it happens after the time frame of the abomination of desolation, as shown in both Mark 13:14-26 and Matt 24:15-30. This places it squarely in the final seven years prior to Christ's earthly kingdom being established, and in fact within the final 3.5 years. And while you have adamantly stated that this is not in the seventieth week of Daniel, Daniel says that the AOD occurs in the last week, which places Jesus fulfillment of "the day of vengeance of our God" in the final or 70th week as well.


WHEW............. a WHOLE LOT of conjecture going on here!

FIRST: Ready1 - Please show me in Scripture where a FINAL 7 year time period is mentioned prior to the Return of Christ?

*Please note: Daniel 9:27 will not work for me because Christ is CLEARLY crucified in the 70th week.

SECOND: Please show me in Scripture where: "Daniel says that the AOD occurs in the last week".

If you can do that without conjecture - I'd love to continue :mrgreen:
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:06 pm

Mr B, actually the scripture does not state that the 70th week has been completed as you state, that would be conjecture on your part.

Generally the 70th week and the 1,260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years are linked together because they describe similar events. Dan 9 describes the AC's involvement with the temple and its desolation, and his eventual end, as do other passages describing the GT, the last 3.5 years (Matt 24, 2 Thess 2, Dan 7, 8, 11, Rev 11, 13, 19).

In this thread i am attempting to look at the 70th week, a period of 7, as it could relate and fit into the counting for the year of Jubilee, the year of the Lord's favor associated with the Day of Vengeance, armageddon. Theoretically, all 3 periods, the 3.5 years, the 70th week, and the Year of Jubilee, could intersect at armageddon.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:30 am

1whowaits wrote:In this thread i am attempting to look at the 70th week, a period of 7, as it could relate and fit into the counting for the year of Jubilee, the year of the Lord's favor associated with the Day of Vengeance, armageddon


1whowaits,

Your aforementioned comments are completely Impossible.

If you intend to prove what you have mentioned - please start by proving how Christ was not crucified in the 70th week. Scripture clearly shows that He was, as I have previously pointed out. There is no "period of 7" remaining.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:29 am

I am puzzled Mr. Baldy. You say that I am speculative or full of conjecture. Did you read the two passages that I referenced? I think not.

In Matt 24, in response to Jesus’ statement about the coming destruction of the Temple (vs 2), his disciple’s asked three questions.

They are as follows:

1) Tell us, when will all this happen?
2) What sign will signal Your return?
3) What sign will signal the end of the world?

In the passage that I gave you, Jesus is answering these three questions. (If you want his whole answer, read the whole chapter.) In verse 15, Jesus references the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. What does he say? He says that the appearance of the AOD is associated with His return. He says that the appearance of the AOD precedes His return. He is answering the disciple’s questions and He says that the AOD is a sign which signals both His return and the end of the world. And He says to pay attention and understand the implication of the fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. We are using the time markers in this chapter and in Mark 13 to establish that Jesus will return to earth in the last 3.5 years of the world as we know it.

Mat 24:15 "The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place." (Reader, pay attention!)


This is not speculation or conjecture. It is a straightforward rendering of the scripture. Mark is even more specific.

Mar 13:14 "The day is coming when you will see the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing where he should not be." (Reader, pay attention!) "Then those in Judea must flee to the hills.
Mar 13:15 A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack.
Mar 13:16 A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat.
Mar 13:17 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days.
Mar 13:18 And pray that your flight will not be in winter.
Mar 13:19 For there will be greater anguish in those days than at any time since God created the world. And it will never be so great again.
Mar 13:20 In fact, unless the Lord shortens that time of calamity, not a single person will survive. But for the sake of His chosen ones He has shortened those days.
Mar 13:21 "Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here is the Messiah,' or 'There he is,' don't believe it.
Mar 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.
Mar 13:23 Watch out! I have warned you about this ahead of time!
Mar 13:24 "At that time, after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light,
Mar 13:25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:26 Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory.


Not only is Mark specific about what Jesus said, he further records that the time shall be so terrible that there has never been a time like it before and there will never be a time like it after. It is so bad that if there is not intervention from God Himself, man would destroy himself. John the Revelator then ties the time of the sixth seal to this time that Jesus has just told his disciples. John’s words, which tie these times and passages together, are found in Revelation chapter six. It reads as follows, and I have underlined the parallel passages.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


It seems indisputable that these are parallel passages which speak of the same time frame. (Although I am not foolish enough to not realize that everything is disputable on this board). But if we can agree that these passages speak of the same time then we simply have to establish how much total time the AOD has upon the earth up to and including “when Jesus returns and the end of the world”. Daniel helps us with this time frame.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


The total time that the AOD has upon the earth after the removal of the daily sacrifice and the AOD is set up is 1290 days. After Jesus comes to the earth he will put down the rebellion of ungodly men and ungodly nations at Armageddon. He will then establish an earthly Kingdom, and the world, as we currently know it, will be no more.

So in short, what I am setting forth is:

1. The appearance of the AOD is a sign which signals the return of Jesus and the end of the world as we know it.
2. The appearance of the AOD precedes the return of Jesus.
3. Jesus comes in power and glory after the establishment of the AOD.
4. From the time that the AOD is established, there are only 1290 days left in the world as we know it.
5. Since 1290 days is less than seven years, Jesus returns in the last seven years of the world as we know it.
6. Since Jesus comes toward the end of this period, he also comes within the last 3.5 years as we know it. (I know, I know that I have not established this fact with scripture, but I can.)
Last edited by Ready1 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Just observing.

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:34 am

WHEW............. a WHOLE LOT of conjecture going on here!

FIRST: Ready1 - Please show me in Scripture where a FINAL 7 year time period is mentioned prior to the Return of Christ?


I have showed you that the Lord’s return is in the final 7 years of the world as we know it. No conjecture, no sleight of hand, no magic, no guesswork, no inference, no speculation, no surmising, no supposition, no assumption, no chicanery..just scripture.

SECOND: Please show me in Scripture where: "Daniel says that the AOD occurs in the last week".

If you can do that without conjecture - I'd love to continue


Carry on Bro because Daniel 9:27 does that very clearly. It mentions the final week covenant and the mid-week AOD. But Jesus establishes the meaning of this passage by what He says in both Matt and Mark. No conjecture, just scripture.

*Please note: Daniel 9:27 will not work for me because Christ is CLEARLY crucified in the 70th week.


This is a perfect example of being so convinced of the correctness of MY position, that it precludes any other possibility of understanding...which, in turn, can skew prophetic understanding from that point forward. :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:18 pm

Ready1,

Please pay attention to how I am responding to your responses - and PLEASE without conjecture as I show you how I believe that you are in error.

As a matter of fact you, and anyone else who cannot comprehend that there is NO Final Week. Jesus was crucified in the 70th week - and Scripture is very, very Clear about this. This would mean that there is NO "One Seven" or "Final 7 year period remaining" - PERIOD. We have to understand that.

First, you write this:

Ready1 wrote:I have showed you that the Lord’s return is in the final 7 years of the world as we know it. No conjecture, no sleight of hand, no magic, no guesswork, no inference, no speculation, no surmising, no supposition, no assumption, no chicanery.. just scripture.


No actually you haven't proven ONE Iota. You have based what you previously posted primarily on pure CONJECTURE. I want you to Prove to ALL who may be reading what you type that Jesus was NOT Crucified in the 70th week. If you are able to do so - THEN and ONLY then will you be able to make your case. But you won't be able to - as Jesus was indeed Crucified in the 70th week.

You then write this:

Ready1 wrote:Carry on Bro because Daniel 9:27 does that very clearly. It mentions the final week covenant and the mid-week AOD. But Jesus establishes the meaning of this passage by what He says in both Matt and Mark. No conjecture, just scripture.


Again, this is PURE CONJECTURE on your part. Daniel 9:27 NEVER mentions a "Final Week" - BUT one week, and in the midst of this one week he will end sacrifices and grain offering. This was completed by Christ - and is not the coming Antichrist, as I formerly did believe. It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it being the AOD.

Here is Daniel 9:27 for you to AGAIN read on your own:

Daniel 9:27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”


Please show me where an AOD comes in the "midst of this one week" - Please show me if you can!
It very clearly states that 'he will "PUT A STOP TO SACRIFICE AND GRAIN OFFERING".
It goes on to mention the AOD but NEVER establishes a time frame in which the "ONE WHO MAKES DESOLATE" will come to perform the AOD.

Ready1, at the very, very least you should do - is FIRST learn that Jesus was Crucified in the 70th week.
Perhaps this will educate you - as it did me; and further open up your understanding that the 70th Week; which has been completed "MAY" have absolutely NOTHING do to with the Final 3.5 years of Prophetic Scripture that will happen prior to the Return of our Lord.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:51 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Ready1,

Please pay attention to how I am responding to your responses - and PLEASE without conjecture as I show you how I believe that you are in error.

As a matter of fact you, and anyone else who cannot comprehend that there is NO Final Week. Jesus was crucified in the 70th week - and Scripture is very, very Clear about this. This would mean that there is NO "One Seven" or "Final 7 year period remaining" - PERIOD. We have to understand that.


If I understand you right, you are saying that I should understand like you do, since you are right and I am wrong. Sorry Mr. B, I think I'll quote myself again... :grin:

Ready1 wrote:This is a perfect example of being so convinced of the correctness of MY position, that it precludes any other possibility of understanding...which, in turn, can skew prophetic understanding from that point forward. :grin:


Mr Baldy wrote:No actually you haven't proven ONE Iota. You have based what you previously posted primarily on pure CONJECTURE. I want you to Prove to ALL who may be reading what you type that Jesus was NOT Crucified in the 70th week. If you are able to do so - THEN and ONLY then will you be able to make your case. But you won't be able to - as Jesus was indeed Crucified in the 70th week.


Actually that is not true. I based what I previously posted on scripture. :grin:

Mr Baldy wrote:Please show me where an AOD comes in the "midst of this one week" - Please show me if you can!
It very clearly states that 'he will "PUT A STOP TO SACRIFICE AND GRAIN OFFERING".
It goes on to mention the AOD but NEVER establishes a time frame in which the "ONE WHO MAKES DESOLATE" will come to perform the AOD.


We can use any version you like Mr. Baldy but they all come out the same: here is another version of this verse.

Dan 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."


Daniel gives the time frame: In 9:27 the AOD gets a half a week. Then he goes on and tells more about that half a week. Please remember that this is not the only verse which Daniel shares about the AOD. In Dan 11 & 12 he tells us more about this half week. He sets up the time frame (9:27), then he tells us more (11 & 12), then he reestablishes the time frame (12:11).


Dan 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.


This is where Daniel begins to tell more about that half week or 3.5 years. It starts Daniel's clock. Everything that follows in this passage (Dan 11& 12) is in accordance with this clock, so from here on, what happens, occurs in the final 3.5 years of time as we currently know it, prior to the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth.

11:32 He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.
Dan 11:33 And the wise among the people shall make many understand, though for some days they shall stumble by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder.
Dan 11:34 When they stumble, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery,
Dan 11:35 and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time.
Dan 11:36 "And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.
Dan 11:37 He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these. A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.
Dan 11:39 He shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.
Dan 11:40 "At the time of the end, the king of the south shall attack him, but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships. And he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through.
Dan 11:41 He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the precious things of Egypt, and the Libyans and the Cushites shall follow in his train.
Dan 11:44 But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction.
Dan 11:45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.
Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."


Daniel 12:4 closes Daniel's clock and seals up his words.

12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream.
Dan 12:6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?"
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?"
Dan 12:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."


Daniel 12:11 again reiterates and reestablishes the time frame, giving a max time.

Once again Mr. Baldy, I would council you with Jesus' words since he reiterates the importance of the time frame: "Reader, pay attention" or "Let the reader understand!"
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:04 pm

1whowaits wrote:I would posit the question on whether the 70th week could begin, and we not know it.


While I don't think so, we could only go for 3.5 years without knowing for certain. And if we ever get to that point, I would have to accept that a pretrib rapture did not happen. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:01 pm

Ready1,

This debate can be very easily settled if you would just simply prove that Christ was not crucified in the 70th week.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:56 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:No actually you haven't proven ONE Iota. You have based what you previously posted primarily on pure CONJECTURE. I want you to Prove to ALL who may be reading what you type that Jesus was NOT Crucified in the 70th week. If you are able to do so - THEN and ONLY then will you be able to make your case. But you won't be able to - as Jesus was indeed Crucified in the 70th week.


I want to look at this argument because I believe that it is a faulty argument and without understanding. We will look at it in 3 posts or whenever I get time... Let’s look at what Daniel says about the seventy weeks.

Dan 9:24  "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.


If we look at Daniel 9:24 it talks about to whom it is written, where it is referring to, and certain things which will be accomplished in this time frame. I’ll just put my understanding out there and let the rest of you take potshots at it.

Whom: Seventy weeks are determined upon Daniel’s people. Who are Daniels people? They are Jewish people who at this time were captives in the land of Babylon. They are those who were paying a price for the ungodliness of the nation of Israel. Daniel himself is a captive in Babylon and served under three kings.

Where: Not only were seventy weeks determined upon Daniel’s people but seventy weeks were also determined upon Daniel’s holy city. The Holy City of Daniel and the Holy City of the future are one and the same city---Jerusalem. Jerusalem at the time of Daniel is lying in ruins, destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. How do we know that the Holy City is Jerusalem?

Isa 52:1  Awake, awake, put on your strength, O Zion; put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; for there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean.


What is accomplished? Six things will be accomplished by the time that the seventy weeks are complete. The following bible version has an intriguing way of setting things forth.

Dan 9:24 God has decided that for seventy weeks, your people and your holy city must suffer as the price of their sins. Then evil will disappear, and justice will rule forever; the visions and words of the prophets will come true, and a most holy place will be dedicated. CEV


Notice that suffering has been determined upon the Jewish people and on the City of Jerusalem for seventy weeks because of their sins. And as a result of the suffering, certain things will be accomplished by the end of those seventy weeks.

1. Evil will disappear, wrongdoing will be complete, and transgression will be finished and restrained.
2. Sin comes to its full limit, or an end is made of sins.
3. Reconciliation and atonement is made for iniquity or lawlessness, evil-doing is cleared away,
4. To bring in or establish everlasting & eternal righteousness, justice shall rule forever,
5. The vision and the word of the prophet are stamped and confirmed as true, there is a conclusion to the vision and prophecy, or they are sealed up.
6. To anoint the most Holy place, or to put holy oil on a most holy place, and a dedication of a most Holy place

Please notice that all of the fulfillments of this passage, all the things that will happen when the seventy weeks are complete, have not yet been fulfilled. And further, notice that this is a time frame which is promised to Jewish people, by Daniel, from God. What do we, then, as onlookers see in 2017?

Evil has not disappeared, sin is rampant, evil doing is everywhere, justice is not ruling, if prophetic vision and the words of the prophets were confirmed as true, we would not be talking about them on FulfilledProphecy, and there is no Holy place to dedicate.

It seems obvious to me, as a literalist, that since points 1-6 are not complete, therefore the seventy weeks are not yet complete, (since these six things will be complete when the 70 weeks are complete.)

We will look at a couple of the next verses in the next post... :grin:

Mr Badly wrote:This debate can be very easily settled if you would just simply prove that Christ was not crucified in the 70th week.


Patience, patience...I think this has been pretty one sided. The only debating you have done is say that I am wrong. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby brett on Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:05 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:WHEW............. a WHOLE LOT of conjecture going on here!

FIRST: Ready1 - Please show me in Scripture where a FINAL 7 year time period is mentioned prior to the Return of Christ?

*Please note: Daniel 9:27 will not work for me because Christ is CLEARLY crucified in the 70th week.

SECOND: Please show me in Scripture where: "Daniel says that the AOD occurs in the last week".

If you can do that without conjecture - I'd love to continue :mrgreen:


Ok Mr Badly please take a look at the following......

Daniel 8:13-14
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.


It may not be obvious to all what this scripture is saying......I understand that some will debate this scripture.....but regardless.....this scripture gives a time period LONGER than 3.5 years......it gives 2300 days which is more than 6 years. This 2300 day time period includes, the start of daily sacrifice, transgression of desolation (AOD), trampling underfoot of the sanctuary and the final cleansing of the sanctuary. I understand this prophecy to be including many "things" in this one time period.....2 of these "things" being the "first thing" and "last thing".......which I understand to mean that from the time sacrifices and offerings start up again (first thing) - TO - the cleansing of the sanctuary (last thing - start of the millennium) - there will be 2300 days. I know from Rev 13:5 & Dan 7:25 that Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot of the Anti-Christ (Gentiles) for 42 months, which is also mentioned and contained within this 2300 days.

So there is one scripture that punches a big hole through the "3.5 years only remaining theory" - that the 1st half of Daniels 70th week has somehow already happened............Daniels 70th week has not even started yet imho........and to try to throw Christ into Daniels 70th week, would also obviously an error imho.

Another scripture is:
Daniel 12:12-13
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


I'm sure most people would agree that Daniels 70th week is made up of 2 halves, the first half lasting 1260 days and the second half lasting 1290 days (with the extra month added).......most people would agree on this. Well the scripture above again gives ANOTHER time frame LARGER than either 1260 days or 1290 days, it gives 1335 days. My understanding of how this longer time period fits in - is that it starts at the START of Daniels 70th week and ends 75 days AFTER the AOD (mid point). So in other words its saying blessed is the man who patiently endures and survives the first half of Daniels 70th week (1260 days) PLUS the first 75 days of the second half of Daniels 70th Week - 1260+75 = 1335. So whoever survives and endures this time period will be blessed because they'll make it to Christ's return (sun & moon darkened, rapture, etc). It's my belief that the majority of the Seals of Revelation occur in the first half of Daniels 70th week, the 6th Seal being the return of Christ, rapture...

ONLY with Daniels 70th week being a full 7 years (2550 days) can you fit in (accommodate) both the above scriptures. So there you have it, 2 scriptures that give time periods GREATER than 3.5 years. The larger being 2300 days is MUCH larger than 3.5 years, its approx 6.39 years - which is much closer to 7 years. To try to convert 2300 days to 2300 years is another big mistake I see being made by some in here.

In these Daniel scriptures there is strong evidence BOTH are referring to literal days (NOT YEARS). For the Daniel 8:13-14 scripture, if you read further down chapter 8 it gives a follow up confirmation of the meaning being literal days :
Daniel 8:24
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


The angels making the point that the evening and the morning prophecy is true is a pretty BIG HINT they are talking about literal days. Plus its called the DAILY SACRIFICE - not the yearly sacrifice.....why would anyone want to convert these references of "days", "daily", etc to "years" or "yearly" ???? It just doesn't make any sense.....as if God would want to confuse us like that......

For the Daniel 12:12-13 scripture, it says clearly that "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHO WAITS AND MAKES IT TO THE 1335 DAYS". The only possible way someone (a man) could wait for that time period is if its 1335 literal days - NOT YEARS....

Note I haven't even thrown in Daniel 9:27 - which also supports it being a full 7 years......but since some here reject that Daniel 9:27 as talking about the AC......I will leave it out...

Mr Badly I do believe the scriptural evidence exists for a longer period than just 3.5 years.

Also just for the record, I mostly support and agree with what 1whowaits and Ready1 are saying.

.
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The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:43 pm


Mr Badly wrote:
This debate can be very easily settled if you would just simply prove that Christ was not crucified in the 70th week.

Ready1 wrote:Patience, patience...I think this has been pretty one sided. The only debating you have done is say that I am wrong.

brett wrote:Mr Badly I do believe the scriptural evidence exists for a longer period than just 3.5 years. Also just for the record, I mostly support and agree with what 1whowaits and Ready1 are saying.


Ready1 and Brett..................

What I have asked is pretty basic. Can you - or Can you NOT provide Scriptural Evidence that indicates Christ was NOT Crucified in the 70th Week?

All the rest of what you are taking so much valuable time in posting could be equitable to "hot air". Or nonsensical
Rhetoric. Because if Jesus was indeed Crucified in the 70th week - as assuredly you will find out with just simply reading Scripture - then this is a CLOSED CASE. Both your points are "MUTE."

Respectfully - Please do your Homework Gentlemen.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:47 pm

OH and BTW Ready1........

We can address the rest of your points you have made in your post once you can PROVE that Jesus was not crucified in the 70th week.

But you wont' be able to do so. :sunshine:
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:19 pm

Brett, yes, the 2300 days of Dan 8 and the 1,290 and 1,335 days of Dan 12 would suggest that there are periods involved at the end that are longer than 1,260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years.

Ready 1, i would agree that at the 3.5 year point (AOD), we would know that the 70th week had begun. But perhaps we could know somethings up prior to that.

In Matt 24 Jesus described the 'beginning of birth pangs' occurring prior to His description of the AOD and the GT, the 3.5 years. In Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus describes wars (nations and kingdoms rising against each other), famines, pestilences and earthquakes. As the listed events have occurred at times in the past, it would appear that Jesus is describing events that will be of much greater intensity at some point, so that we will know something has changed, the time of the birth-pangs has begun.

The wars still to occur appear to be armageddon (at the end of the week, GT, 3.5 years), and Gog-Magog of Ezek 38 and the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, Jer 49, Amos 1. In Ezek 38 Israel is described as living in security in the center of the land without God's protection (noted by God in Ezek 39). After the AOD Israel flees into the wilderness and is protected by God, suggesting that Gog-Magog likely occurs prior to the AOD. And as the nations listed at Damascus are missing from the Gog list, it is likely that Damascus occurs prior to Gog and the AOD as well.

The destruction of Damascus could be a harbinger of what is to come, it could be the first recognizable event of the 70th week, occuring prior to Gog Magog (which appears to be associated with Damascus in the latter part of Isa 17), and perhaps prior to the strengthening of the Covenant for 1 seven, the Covenant confirming being a logical event after God's deliverance of Israel at Gog, and prior to the rebuilding of the temple.

Rev 11 and 2 Thess 2 describe a literal Temple of God, which would have to be rebuilt prior to the time of the AOD, suggesting that the rebuilding of the temple could also point to the week having begun, especially if it begins after a Gog-Magog type event.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby brett on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:32 pm

1whowaits wrote:........
........
The wars still to occur appear to be armageddon (at the end of the week, GT, 3.5 years), and Gog-Magog of Ezek 38 and the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, Jer 49, Amos 1. In Ezek 38 Israel is described as living in security in the center of the land without God's protection (noted by God in Ezek 39). After the AOD Israel flees into the wilderness and is protected by God, suggesting that Gog-Magog likely occurs prior to the AOD. And as the nations listed at Damascus are missing from the Gog list, it is likely that Damascus occurs prior to Gog and the AOD as well.

The destruction of Damascus could be a harbinger of what is to come, it could be the first recognizable event of the 70th week, occuring prior to Gog Magog (which appears to be associated with Damascus in the latter part of Isa 17), and perhaps prior to the strengthening of the Covenant for 1 seven, the Covenant confirming being a logical event after God's deliverance of Israel at Gog, and prior to the rebuilding of the temple.

Rev 11 and 2 Thess 2 describe a literal Temple of God, which would have to be rebuilt prior to the time of the AOD, suggesting that the rebuilding of the temple could also point to the week having begun, especially if it begins after a Gog-Magog type event.


Honestly the sooner people drop Ezekiel 38,39 the better. Its just going to confuse you......as its for the end of the millennium. During the millennium Israel will indeed be secure, unwalled and experiencing peace and security under the governing of Jesus, which fits the exact description of Ezekiel 38,39. We just can't apply Ezekiel 38,39 to our own Age (time period) because the description is so CONTRARY to today's modern Israel - which is HEAVILY walled, has SERIOUS security issues (rockets, bombings, etc) and will soon be invaded and trodden underfoot of the Gentiles around the AOD. There is just no way Ezekiel 38,39 can apply to the troubled Israel of our time. So my advise is the sooner you drop Ezekiel 38,39 the better for you.

Also I would recommend putting aside the typical "Damascus prophecy stuff". I'm not saying its wrong, I'm just saying that it again is bit of a "red herring" that will throw confusion into the mix at this stage. A lot of the "prophecy buffs" that push Ezekiel 38,39 and that also push Damascus prophecies are just men milking the market place for profits.....its not real spiritual meat from genuine believers imho.

Mr Baldy wrote:What I have asked is pretty basic. Can you - or Can you NOT provide Scriptural Evidence that indicates Christ was NOT Crucified in the 70th Week?


Mr Baldy - I honestly don't want to do that much research ....... maybe at a latter time ...... but not now. You ask a lot and I have already given you some genuine responses. If you're not receiving or acknowledging what I give you now then why would you receive or acknowledge what I give you later? You will have to do some of your own research for the time being and hopefully I will be able to add something later down the track.......assuming WW3 doesn't start any time soon.

.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:28 pm

What does the next verse say? Mr Baldy, I will give you your choice of scriptures, but the one I like (because I think that it gives us a clue to the meaning of both the seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks) is the following.

Dan 9:25 GNB Note this and understand it: From the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until God's chosen leader comes, seven times seven years will pass. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, and will stand for seven times sixty-two years, but this will be a time of troubles.


Note what it implies. From the time that the command to rebuild Jerusalem goes out (Nehemiah 2, Nissan 445 BC) 49 years shall pass. As we go back and read all the “fits and starts” of the rebuilding of Jerusalem, it appears to have taken about 49 years (the wall itself only took 52 days, but they didn’t really do the same number on all the rest of the rebuilding project.) And the town was rebuilt with solid defenses and streets. Then there were 434 more years until the presentation of the King Jesus as Lord. And this was a period of time that Israel and Judah never really had control of their own destiny but rather they we controlled by others…Rome specifically at the time of Jesus, thus a time of troubles.

While there are many speculations about the time frame of God's Chosen leader or Messiah the Prince, I personally see that the time that Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem at his "triumphal entry" as the time that this scripture was fulfilled. Jesus was never proclaimed a King/Prince until he came into the City of Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. Matt 21:5 records the fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah in this passage.

Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.


What did the people say and do on that occasion? They agreed with the prophecy and also proclaimed Him King of Israel of the House of David.

Mat 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Mar 11:8 And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way.
Mar 11:9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
Mar 11:10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.


And what did Jesus say? He said that on that very day they could have known peace and he calls this the “time of his visitation”.

Luk 19:41 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it,
Luk 19:42 saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side
Luk 19:44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation."


The question then is “When does the 483 years (69 weeks) end?”

In answer to this question, I see this day (Nissan 32 AD) as the day that the Lord Jesus offered himself to the Jewish nation as their King in fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9, but it turned out to be a day of rejection. What did the religious leaders say?

Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."


And for you, Mr Baldy, you can chose any of these versions if you don't like the one that I chose.

(ASV) Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.

(ISV) So be informed and discern that seven weeks and 62 weeks will elapse from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed commander. The street will be rebuilt, along with the wall, though in troubled times.

(KJV) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

(LITV) Know, then, and understand that from the going out of a word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.

(MKJV) Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.

(NLT) Now listen and understand! Seven sets of seven plus sixty-two sets of seven will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler—the Anointed One—comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the perilous times.

(RV) Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks: and threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.

(WEB) “Know therefore and discern that from the going out of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times.

(YLT) And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.


We have another verse to go.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:10 am

brett wrote:Mr Baldy - I honestly don't want to do that much research


1whowaits,

Your aforementioned statement in-lies the problem. There is no research to be done to see that Christ was clearly Crucified in the 70th week - all you have to do is read Scripture. Since you "don't want to do" it - I will provide it for you.

Daniel 9:24-26 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24) “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25) So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26) Then AFTER the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


1whowaits - it doesn't get any clearer than that. AFTER 69 weeks came the 70th.
Jesus was clearly Crucified in the 70th week, and the aforementioned passage of Scripture proves it.
The requirements set forth in verse 24 were initiated as well with the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

In closing, there are just too many "feel good"; nonsensical "GAP" theories; and fantasies out there to sell books, tickle the minds of well meaning Christians that do nothing but deceive. Frankly, all I want is the Truth.

Jesus plainly stated that His Return would be like a "Thief in the Night" - and like the "Days of Noah". Folk will be carrying on as if nothing has changed. Then SUDDEN Destruction. This in my opinion has absolutely NOTHING to do with the 70th week. It's His Return. If all these mystical fantasies are occurring prior to His Return - then most will know when it's going to happen.

All we get are two clues - "The Apostasy" (falling away) must occur - and the "Man of Sin" must be revealed.
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) Many will miss this, because they will be like the World and it's required standards.

So this idea about the 70th week being extended into an unknown, virtually unlimited time span (GAP Theory) makes no sense. The 70 weeks have been completed - and proof is that Jesus was Crucified in the 70th week - and time continued.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:25 am

Ready1 wrote:The question then is “When does the 483 years (69 weeks) end?”


I don't believe that it is a question of "When does the 483 years (69) weeks end?"
Scripture answers this question for us.

Plain reading of Daniel 9:25-26 explains very CLEARLY that AFTER the 69th week ended Messiah was Crucified.

Again, Christ was clearly Crucified in the 70th week. The weeks and days didn't just mysteriously disappear.
Nor has time stopped to fit in this imaginary "GAP" period that will "supposedly" and very magically re-join itself to time as we know it to fit a certain idealism or nonsensical Theory.

Why don't we just allow Scripture to SPEAK for itself?
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:19 am

Mr Baldy wrote:I don't believe that it is a question of "When does the 483 years (69) weeks end?"
Scripture answers this question for us.

Plain reading of Daniel 9:25-26 explains very CLEARLY that AFTER the 69th week ended Messiah was Crucified.

Again, Christ was clearly Crucified in the 70th week. The weeks and days didn't just mysteriously disappear.
Nor has time stopped to fit in this imaginary "GAP" period that will "supposedly" and very magically re-join itself to time as we know it to fit a certain idealism or nonsensical Theory.

Why don't we just allow Scripture to SPEAK for itself?


Let's not be obtuse, Mr Baldy. You are “yelling” the same thing over and over and over, looking only at what you assume to be obvious. Lets look at the scripture that you just put up. Here is a composite of the scriptures at the end of the page. Again, you can chose which ever one you like, because they all say the same thing.

Dan 9:26 (Composite) Then after the 62 weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and will have no successor, appearing to have accomplished nothing. The city and the Temple will be destroyed by the invading army of a powerful ruler, the people of the prince that shall come. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end. Desolations are determined.


There is one thing that you, Mr. Baldy, and I will agree upon. That is the fact that Jesus died in the year immediately following the closure of the sixty-ninth week. Now at this point you will be jumping up and down and saying, SEE, SEE, HE WAS KILLED IN THE 70TH WEEK!!! Unfortunately, we will not be in agreement and the reason hinges upon the definition of the 70th week and the things which must be accomplished in that time frame.

Let’s re-establish the parameters of the 70 weeks.

Whom: Seventy weeks are determined upon Daniel’s people.
Where: Not only were seventy weeks determined upon Daniel’s people but seventy weeks were also determined upon Jerusalem
What is accomplished? Six things will be accomplished by the time that the seventy weeks are complete.

They are
1. Evil will disappear, wrongdoing will be complete, and transgression will be finished and restrained.
2. Sin comes to its full limit, or an end is made of sins.
3. Reconciliation and atonement is made for iniquity or lawlessness, evil-doing is cleared away,
4. To bring in or establish everlasting & eternal righteousness, justice shall rule forever,
5. The vision and the word of the prophet are stamped and confirmed as true, there is a conclusion to the vision and prophecy, or they are sealed up.
6. To anoint the most Holy place, or to put holy oil on a most holy place, and a dedication of a most Holy place


These are the things which define the 70 weeks. They happen to the Jews and Jerusalem, and six major things must be completed.

So let’s recap.

1. Dan 9:24 establishes the fact that there will be 70 weeks determined upon the Jews and Jerusalem. Furthermore it establishes the character of what must come to pass by the end of these 70 weeks
2. Dan 9:25-26 take us through the end of 69 weeks and include the death of Jesus as well as a prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem.
3. Dan 9:27 talks about the missing week that the other verses have not yet talked about. We have already talked about this verse and you, Mr Baldy have rejected the fact that it refers to the 70th week. Your rejection of this fact does NOT make it true. It simply makes you mistaken. Let’s look at it again.

(GNB) That ruler (the coming commander of vs 26) will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, (Yes, Mr. Baldy, that IS the 70th week) and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him."


Jesus confirms this as the 70th week when he refers to the AOD in both Matt and Mark. He even extends the time table and shares more about the period and His appearance at the end of this time frame. I will again give the time frame that Jesus gives us. I will give one more important detail.

The appearance of the AOD occurs within the 70th week of Daniel.

1. The appearance of the AOD is a sign which signals the return of Jesus and the end of the world as we know it.
2. The appearance of the AOD precedes the return of Jesus.
3. Jesus comes in power and glory after the establishment of the AOD.
4. From the time that the AOD is established, there are only 1290 days left in the world as we know it.
5. Since 1290 days is less than seven years, Jesus returns in the last seven years of the world as we know it.
6. Since Jesus comes toward the end of this period, he also comes within the last 3.5 years as we know it.


4. What is the conclusion of all of the above? Mr. Baldy is either right or wrong.

a. If Mr Baldy is right, then

i. Jesus was killed in the 70th week.
ii. Daniel’s six fulfilments of the 70 weeks don’t matter, or
iii. All six of the important fulfilments of the 70 weeks have already been accomplished
iv. The AOD has been here and gone.
v. Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about, or
vi. Jesus has returned and we are living in the millennium (or make that the third millennium)
vii. Daniel timetable was in error concerning the AOD.

b. If Mr. Baldy is wrong, then

i. Jesus was killed in the year following the 69th week but it is not a part of the 70 weeks.
ii. Daniel’s six fulfilments of the 70 weeks are important and will yet be accomplished.
iii. Jesus will be the one to fulfil all of the six important fulfilments. They will be accomplished by the end of the last week.
iv. Daniel gave an accurate timetable concerning the AOD and the final week.
v. Jesus did know what he was talking about and the AOD has not yet appeared but rather is a sign by which the whole world will know that the return of Jesus is very, very near.
vi. Jesus is coming again to complete the final week.
vii. Jesus is coming in power and glory.

5. I think Mr Baldy is wrong.

Once again, Mr Baldy, you can choose any of the following.
Daniel 9:26

(ASV) And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

(ESV) And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

(GNB) And at the end of that time God's chosen leader will be killed unjustly. The city and the Temple will be destroyed by the invading army of a powerful ruler. The end will come like a flood, bringing the war and destruction which God has prepared.

(ISV) Then after the 62 weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and will have no successor. Then the people of the coming commander will destroy both the city and the Sanctuary. Its ending will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war, with desolations having been decreed.

(JPS) And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

(LITV) And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.

(MKJV) And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.

(NLT) "After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.

(RV) And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and his end shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.

(WEB) After the sixty-two weeks the Anointed One will be cut off, and will have nothing. The people of the prince who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end will be with a flood, and war will be even to the end. Desolations are determined.

(YLT) And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby mrgravyard49 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:16 pm

LOL WHy do you all debate Mr. B?? After all he wrote the Book..
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:59 pm

i thought Mr B was here for comic relief, all the 'yelling' was for fun and not to be taken seriously.
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