The beinning of the 70th week

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue May 09, 2017 12:35 pm

Douggg wrote:There is no 1260 days stated in Daniel. Nor Revelation 13.


Douggg - respectfully, what Bible are you reading :humm:

Douggg wrote:We are not in basic disagreement over the time, times, half times, being right before Jesus returns. It is the 1260 days that precedes that time, times, half times - which I am pointing out is the first half of the seven years - while you are saying it is not.


I'm saying it not because there is no "first half of the seven" ever mentioned in Scripture.

Douggg wrote:In Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 there is the time, times, half times corresponding to Revelation 12:14 the time, times, half times. Which is the second half of the seven years. The 42 months in Revelation 13:5 and Revelation 11:2 are also the second half of the seven years. Although the 42 months and the time, times, half times are not exact equilvalents of each other.


I disagree.

All you have to do is not arbitrarily add things - and just PROVE it with written Scripture.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue May 09, 2017 4:50 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Are you suggesting that there are two 3.5 year times periods in which the Church flees to the "wilderness" and is "nourished"


shorttribber wrote:Yes, the SEED of the Woman Flees on Two Separate Occasions, the first Was in 67-70 ad, and the Second time is still future.


Please provide Scripture for this Shorty. Thanks............
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Tue May 09, 2017 5:07 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote: Are you suggesting that there are two 3.5 year times periods in which the Church flees to the "wilderness" and is "nourished"
shorttribber wrote:Yes, the SEED of the Woman Flees on Two Separate Occasions, the first Was in 67-70 ad, and the Second time is still future.

Mr. B. wrote: Please provide Scripture for this Shorty. Thanks............


I just gave the text Mr. B.....here it is again...

it's Rev. 12

The Seed of the Woman flees twice....The first time is after Christ is caught up to the throne of God after His resurrection. Then Immediately we are given the account of the First fleeing of the Woman(Her SEED)...this account is at 67-70ad, 40 years after Christ.
THEN we are told of the WAR in Heaven, That's the war in the Heavens that is occurring as we speak...it's been a SPIRITUAL WAR Against Principalities and Powers being shown against them....ALL This Time.

At the Time of the AOD, the Loser (satan) is cast out....THEN the Future fleeing of the Woman is shown us in verse 14.

Rev. 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


What I've just shown is a Very Accurate Chronology of events regarding Rev12...it's not that difficult if you can just accept the orderly fashion that the whole chapter unfolds.

it's in perfect order.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed May 10, 2017 2:28 am

shorttribber wrote:The Seed of the Woman flees twice....The first time is after Christ is caught up to the throne of God after His resurrection. Then Immediately we are given the account of the First fleeing of the Woman(Her SEED)...this account is at 67-70ad, 40 years after Christ.


shorttribber wrote:What I've just shown is a Very Accurate Chronology of events regarding Rev12...it's not that difficult if you can just accept the orderly fashion that the whole chapter unfolds. it's in perfect order.


Shorty, respectfully...............

What you have shown is your very own interpretation - to which I very strongly Disagree. Amazingly you state that it is the "orderly fashion that the "whole chapter unfolds" - yet you leave out the ensuing verses that are crucial to understanding. And since you did, I will post them:

Revelation 12:15-17 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16) But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. 17) So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.



The aforementioned verse of Scripture are the remainder of the events in Revelation 12 which clearly identify that the 1,260 days are one event that is Future. There is a "remnant" that is nourished in the wilderness for 1,260 days, as indicated in verse 6 and verse 14, which actually goes on to describe how they flee. Verse 17 describes the REST of the Body of Christ that is persecuted by Satan that is not protected.

This is ONE event which consists of 1,260 Days just as Scripture mentions. To arbitrarily "throw in" a time period of "60 - 70 AD" is just conjecture on your part, and cannot be supported with Scripture.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 10, 2017 7:44 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, respectfully...............What you have shown is your very own interpretation - to which I very strongly Disagree. Amazingly you state that it is the "orderly fashion that the "whole chapter unfolds" - yet you leave out the ensuing verses that are crucial to understanding. And since you did, I will post them:

Mr. B,
It's no less Conjecture, or Your very own interpretation, that the Remainder or Remnant in vs 17 Refers Back to the Woman in vs 6.
Not only is it Conjecture on your part, it is an Awkward and Disorderly Conjecture on your part.

Where in vs 6 does the Text Say that a "Remnant " or "Remainder" OF The Woman fled?
It doesn't, It says only "The Woman"
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed May 10, 2017 5:45 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, respectfully...............What you have shown is your very own interpretation - to which I very strongly Disagree. Amazingly you state that it is the "orderly fashion that the "whole chapter unfolds" - yet you leave out the ensuing verses that are crucial to understanding. And since you did, I will post them:

Mr. B,
It's no less Conjecture, or Your very own interpretation, that the Remainder or Remnant in vs 17 Refers Back to the Woman in vs 6.
Not only is it Conjecture on your part, it is an Awkward and Disorderly Conjecture on your part.

Where in vs 6 does the Text Say that a "Remnant " or "Remainder" OF The Woman fled?
It doesn't, It says only "The Woman"


Hey Shorty............just so you KNOW...... I LUV this stuff man! :mrgreen:

Now to address your point.

Your aforementioned rebuttal, as it relates to me is neither conjecture or "my very own interpretation" as it applies to the "remainder" or "Remnant" mentioned in verse 17. Nor is it an "Awkward" or "Disorderly Conjecture" on my part. Actually, when you wrote it - it made me laugh. :sunshine:


Shorty, this is why presenting Scripture is ALWAYS so important as it relates to applying the proper exegetical hermeneutics to a proper interpretation. You can't just arbitrarily throw out things to fit a certain "Theory" as many do to fit how they interpret Scripture. This is a reason why I have very STRONGLY, and very ROBUSTLY, refuted you inserting your time period of "67 - 70 AD period of the Church fleeing to the Wilderness".
Shorty, very respectfully - that interpretation is just FLAT out WRONG.

Here is my Evidence to support why I believe that Revelation 12 which mentions the 1,260 period is a ONE TIME event - and verse 17 refers to the "Remnant":


Romans 9:25-28 - New King James Version (NKJV)

25) As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

26)
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27) Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

28)
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”


The aforementioned passages are neither conjecture - or awkward as it applies to the End Times. You and I certainly agree that there is a Final 3.5 year period that remains ONLY. However, I just cannot understand why you want to use "historical evidence" when it fits your "short trib" theory, and apply it to End Times - yet you refute "historical evidence" when it comes down to the fulfillment of the 70th week. I just don't get it :humm:
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 10, 2017 9:23 pm

What? Mr. B.?
I have not said there is No Remnant in the End Times!
I have said that You Can't Awkwardly ASSUME that "The Woman" in verse 6 IS THAT Remnant mentioned in verse 17!

Mr Baldy wrote:Your aforementioned rebuttal, as it relates to me is neither conjecture or "my very own interpretation" as it applies to the "remainder" or "Remnant" mentioned in verse 17. Nor is it an "Awkward" or "Disorderly Conjecture" on my part. Actually, when you wrote it - it made me laugh.

It is Clearly Your Interpretation Mr. B., What else can we call it?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Douggg on Wed May 10, 2017 11:13 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:I disagree.

All you have to do is not arbitrarily add things - and just PROVE it with written Scripture.

The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Wed May 10, 2017 11:36 pm

Douggg wrote:The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.

Hi Douggg,
I know that you've tried without much success to get me to take notice of what you're mentioning about the crowns etc.
That is my fault of course for not being able to set time aside to search it out well.

I would like to know at this point now, although i still have precious little time to study these particulars....I'm trying to spend more with my family and other areas of reading.

The one question I have is this; are the differences in the crowns, in your opinion, an indicator that the Dragon in the Opening verses of Rev12 is FIRST depicted as NOT YET Being the Beast or antichrist described in the Second Half of the 70th week?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Douggg on Thu May 11, 2017 4:53 am

shorttribber wrote:
Douggg wrote:The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.

Hi Douggg,
I know that you've tried without much success to get me to take notice of what you're mentioning about the crowns etc.
That is my fault of course for not being able to set time aside to search it out well.

I would like to know at this point now, although i still have precious little time to study these particulars....I'm trying to spend more with my family and other areas of reading.

The one question I have is this; are the differences in the crowns, in your opinion, an indicator that the Dragon in the Opening verses of Rev12 is FIRST depicted as NOT YET Being the Beast or antichrist described in the Second Half of the 70th week?
Revelation 12 and Revelation 17, both are backing up the connection between the dragon - Satan - and the beast currently in the bottomless pit... and what it says in Revelation 13 about Satan giving the beast his power.

Revelation 17 is the status of the beast at time of John. The actual beast was in the bottomless pit, which John could not view into - but was told about by the angel. So what John saw, the scarlet color beast, was Satan the power behind the actual beast - that is the connection. Satan, himself, has never been held captive in the bottomless pit. There was also a connection being made in Revelation 17 of Satan to the harlot, and mystery Babylon the Great.

In Revelation 12, because it is the status of the beast at the beginning of the 7 years, and again the actual beast is in the bottomless pit, John sees the dragon, Satan. The actual beast is still in the bottomless pit at the beginning of the 7 years.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left, John sees the actual beast as it has come out of the bottomless pit, and is rising up out of the sea. And again in that chapter it iterates that the dragon gives the beast his power.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Separately, if you want to say short-trib as not to mean a seven-year tribulation, I can agree to. Because the first portion, has to be not tribulation because them who will have errantly embraced the Antichrist person, thinking he is the messiah, will be saying peace and safety....thinking they have entered the messianic age. Until the person commits the trangsression of desolation somewhere in the middle of the 7 years.

There is still the 7 years 70th week period forthcoming. But I would not call it a seven-year tribulation because that is misleading. Most often that "seven-year tribulation" terminology is inappropriately used by pre-tribbers. What they should be saying is pre-seventieth week, as that is what they actually mean. (I personally am anytime rapture view - which the rapture could indeed happen pre-seventieth week, or maybe after the seventieth week begins)
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Thu May 11, 2017 12:31 pm

Douggg wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
Douggg wrote:The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.

Hi Douggg,
I know that you've tried without much success to get me to take notice of what you're mentioning about the crowns etc.
That is my fault of course for not being able to set time aside to search it out well.

I would like to know at this point now, although i still have precious little time to study these particulars....I'm trying to spend more with my family and other areas of reading.

The one question I have is this; are the differences in the crowns, in your opinion, an indicator that the Dragon in the Opening verses of Rev12 is FIRST depicted as NOT YET Being the Beast or antichrist described in the Second Half of the 70th week?
Revelation 12 and Revelation 17, both are backing up the connection between the dragon - Satan - and the beast currently in the bottomless pit... and what it says in Revelation 13 about Satan giving the beast his power.

Revelation 17 is the status of the beast at time of John. The actual beast was in the bottomless pit, which John could not view into - but was told about by the angel. So what John saw, the scarlet color beast, was Satan the power behind the actual beast - that is the connection. Satan, himself, has never been held captive in the bottomless pit. There was also a connection being made in Revelation 17 of Satan to the harlot, and mystery Babylon the Great.

In Revelation 12, because it is the status of the beast at the beginning of the 7 years, and again the actual beast is in the bottomless pit, John sees the dragon, Satan. The actual beast is still in the bottomless pit at the beginning of the 7 years.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left, John sees the actual beast as it has come out of the bottomless pit, and is rising up out of the sea. And again in that chapter it iterates that the dragon gives the beast his power.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Separately, if you want to say short-trib as not to mean a seven-year tribulation, I can agree to. Because the first portion, has to be not tribulation because them who will have errantly embraced the Antichrist person, thinking he is the messiah, will be saying peace and safety....thinking they have entered the messianic age. Until the person commits the trangsression of desolation somewhere in the middle of the 7 years.

There is still the 7 years 70th week period forthcoming. But I would not call it a seven-year tribulation because that is misleading. Most often that "seven-year tribulation" terminology is inappropriately used by pre-tribbers. What they should be saying is pre-seventieth week, as that is what they actually mean. (I personally am anytime rapture view - which the rapture could indeed happen pre-seventieth week, or maybe after the seventieth week begins)



Super post, that helps to explain what I've thought you did mean before I asked.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat May 13, 2017 7:48 am

Douggg wrote:The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.


Douggg, it doesn't PROVE anything - only that you have a fixation on a future 7 year period in mind that is so subjective no further comment is even necessary. :roll:

The sensationalism, sophistry, and all these grandiose ideas as it relates to the End Times will be greatly challenged - at least by me when I see holes in what is being presented. Sometimes when I read some of the things that are written, that cant be supported by Scripture I often think it's like a person reaching for imaginary objects in the atmosphere to hang on a Christmas Tree to make it look prettier.

The book of Revelation is very symbolic - and so is the Book of Daniel for that matter. I see many taking the prophecies presented in Daniel that have already been fulfilled and attempt to tie them into actions that the future Antichrist will perform. Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled MOST of them. As far as the Book of Revelation.........well, I see Christians attempting to do the same thing that Tim Lahaye, and Jerry Jenkins did with the "Left Behind" series NONSENSE - only that these Believer's aren't getting paid. :mrgreen:

I still can't get over the fact that we have Believers believing that a literal man will get shot in the head and be miraculously resurrected from the dead by Satan - who is NOT the giver of Life; and some even think by God as if He would be so hypocritical by creating a being so evil only to destroy him at His Glorious Appearing. Totally Ridiculous. Last I checked, Satan was the destroyer of Life - and God is the Giver of Life.

The other thing is: Most believe that we will have a 7 year Tribulation period. Believing the "first half" will be the Tribulation - then the "Second half will be Great Tribulation". There is absolutely NOTHING written in Scripture that identifies how long Great Tribulation will last - nor that there is a 7 year period that is split in "half".
Seriously, all this fairy tale; hocus pocus pure utter NONSENSE should stop.

Scripture identifies a FUTURE 3.5 year period ONLY.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Douggg on Sat May 13, 2017 11:46 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Douggg wrote:The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.


Douggg, it doesn't PROVE anything - only that you have a fixation on a future 7 year period in mind that is so subjective no further comment is even necessary. :roll:

The sensationalism, sophistry, and all these grandiose ideas as it relates to the End Times will be greatly challenged - at least by me when I see holes in what is being presented. Sometimes when I read some of the things that are written, that cant be supported by Scripture I often think it's like a person reaching for imaginary objects in the atmosphere to hang on a Christmas Tree to make it look prettier.

The book of Revelation is very symbolic - and so is the Book of Daniel for that matter. I see many taking the prophecies presented in Daniel that have already been fulfilled and attempt to tie them into actions that the future Antichrist will perform. Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled MOST of them. As far as the Book of Revelation.........well, I see Christians attempting to do the same thing that Tim Lahaye, and Jerry Jenkins did with the "Left Behind" series NONSENSE - only that these Believer's aren't getting paid. :mrgreen:

I still can't get over the fact that we have Believers believing that a literal man will get shot in the head and be miraculously resurrected from the dead by Satan - who is NOT the giver of Life; and some even think by God as if He would be so hypocritical by creating a being so evil only to destroy him at His Glorious Appearing. Totally Ridiculous. Last I checked, Satan was the destroyer of Life - and God is the Giver of Life.

The other thing is: Most believe that we will have a 7 year Tribulation period. Believing the "first half" will be the Tribulation - then the "Second half will be Great Tribulation". There is absolutely NOTHING written in Scripture that identifies how long Great Tribulation will last - nor that there is a 7 year period that is split in "half".
Seriously, all this fairy tale; hocus pocus pure utter NONSENSE should stop.

Scripture identifies a FUTURE 3.5 year period ONLY.

Mr. Baldy, I provided the scriptural verses as unarguable proof. You did not argue in regards to those verses, but responded with misdirection and a speech.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun May 14, 2017 5:45 am

Douggg wrote:Mr. Baldy, I provided the scriptural verses as unarguable proof. You did not argue in regards to those verses, but responded with misdirection and a speech.


Douggg you are correct.

However, this is what I wrote:

Mr Baldy wrote:Douggg, it doesn't PROVE anything - only that you have a fixation on a future 7 year period in mind that is so subjective no further comment is even necessary


My point is to point out that most of the theories you post concerning the coming Antichrist, and the period in which he reigns is so subjective, that no further comment is necessary. What you have provided is NOT "unarguable proof"; but your interpretation, which I wholeheartedly disagree with. I have yet to see you post anything concerning the 7 year prophecy that contains any EVIDENCE to prove your points. What I have seen is a lot of conjecture and non-supported Scriptural ideas that can relate more to fantasy than reality.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Douggg on Sun May 14, 2017 3:32 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Douggg wrote:Mr. Baldy, I provided the scriptural verses as unarguable proof. You did not argue in regards to those verses, but responded with misdirection and a speech.


Douggg you are correct.

However, this is what I wrote:

Mr Baldy wrote:Douggg, it doesn't PROVE anything - only that you have a fixation on a future 7 year period in mind that is so subjective no further comment is even necessary


My point is to point out that most of the theories you post concerning the coming Antichrist, and the period in which he reigns is so subjective, that no further comment is necessary. What you have provided is NOT "unarguable proof"; but your interpretation, which I wholeheartedly disagree with. I have yet to see you post anything concerning the 7 year prophecy that contains any EVIDENCE to prove your points. What I have seen is a lot of conjecture and non-supported Scriptural ideas that can relate more to fantasy than reality.


Mr. Baldy, the unarguable proof, again, is this...

The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.

There is no interpretation involved. In the above statement, I did not interpret what the crowns on the heads and horns mean. The crowns/no crowns are reversed between Revelation 12 and Revelation 13, which in Revelation 13 there is only ONE timeframe given in the text - 42 months. We agree that 42 months is half of 7 years.

In Revelation 12, there are two timeframes given. The 1260 days, and the time, times, half times. So because the crowns on the heads and horns are reversed, the 1260 days must come before the time, times, half times.... to signify a different starting point in Revelation 12. The two chapters, Revelation 13 and Revelation 12 cannot start from the same point.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun May 14, 2017 4:18 pm

Douggg wrote:Mr. Baldy, the unarguable proof, again, is this...The crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns is different (reversed) in Revelation 13 (42 months left) than in Revelation 12. Which PROVES the 1260 days precedes the time, times, half times.There is no interpretation involved. In the above statement, I did not interpret what the crowns on the heads and horns mean. The crowns/no crowns are reversed between Revelation 12 and Revelation 13, which in Revelation 13 there is only ONE timeframe given in the text - 42 months. We agree that 42 months is half of 7 years.In Revelation 12, there are two timeframes given. The 1260 days, and the time, times, half times. So because the crowns on the heads and horns are reversed, the 1260 days must come before the time, times, half times.... to signify a different starting point in Revelation 12. The two chapters, Revelation 13 and Revelation 12 cannot start from the same point.


:doh:
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