Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:00 am

keithareilly wrote:So, please be patient with me while I try and walk around the perimeter and isolate the scope of the 70 weeks goals.That being said, tell me what logic rules out the parallel perspective and why the two 3.5 year periods should not be considered as the same event.


Gotta comment later about what you've asked. Very busy schedule today. I hope I've not seemed impatient in our discussion, I'm not trying to be anyway, I'm happy to have this conversation with you about these things.

Blessings to you as always :hugs:
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:03 am

David,

Interesting, had not thought about Satan falling from heaven but not all the way to earth. It does not say he fell to earth does it?. I think Steven actual saw into Heaven in the same way Elisha was able to see the army of chariots of fire; his eyes were open. I think this because scripture says he saw into heaven. One could argue anything we see is a vision though. So not that important. But, I know there are things I do not see that I wish I saw.

I will probably be all over the place in this thread as my goal is to identify what really those goals in Daniel 9:24 actually mean. And I do think our accuser being gone and our advocate being there is a huge change and that change happened during those 70 weeks. If I am correct about this, which I may not be, then how would that help accomplish the goals of Daniel 9:24?

So how do you think the change of our accuser being gone and our advocate being there might contribute to the goals of Daniel 9:24?

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:11 am

Shorttrib,

You have not seemed impatient in any way. I am just letting you know ahead of time what is going on in my head and why I might be all over the place in this thread. Since I am going to push the limits and be all over the place without having a real good foundation for some of the things I shall say, I figured I would let you know in advance why I might not be as rigid and as conservative in my opinions as I usually am. It has been my experience that identifying the scope of something can get "out there" and be difficult for others.

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:58 pm

keithareilly wrote:Include what you want. I won't debate whether the 70th week is finished.


Hi Keith,

Hope you don't mind...I'm going to chime in on this thread as well. The aforementioned comment is IMPOSSIBLE NOT to debate, as the very subject matter of the requirements set forth in the Goals set forth in 9:24 absolutely require the 70th week to be debated and/or discussed as well to come to "Truth." Can't have one without the other.

Now, in my mentioning that, I believe that you and I were not far off in the Thread about "Who is He?". The only difference is that although you have provided adequate information about the historical events that may relate to the requirements set forth and/or occurred in Daniel 12:11-12; we certainly disagree with the cessation of sacrifices timing.

We both agree that the 70th week has been completed. So, does that negate the fact that the "Goals" set forth in Daniel 9:24 need to be completed as well? You have mentioned that you do indeed believe that they have to be "accomplished" completed:

keithareilly wrote:Because I believe the 70 weeks are complete, I also believe the goals of verse 24 must therefore have been accomplished.


Now lets look at the 6 mentioned goals again:

keithareilly wrote: Daniel 9:2424 Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
1) to finish the transgression,
2) to make an end of sin,
3) to make atonement for iniquity,
4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5) to seal up vision and prophecy
6) and to anoint the most holy place.


Keith, and others...........if you'll notice the aforementioned 6 requirements for the 70th Week - NOTHING indicates that the Goals have to be Completed or Accomplished prior to the END of the 70th Week.

All of the Goals are associated with the word "TO"

The word "TO" is a preposition used for expressing motion.

In other words it is to put what is being discussed into action - doesn't mean it has to be "accomplished" to it's completion.

Now, in my very humble opinion, the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 have been met, as far as setting them in motion during the 70th Week - and I believe wholeheartedly that the 70th Week has come to it's completion. They were set in motion with the birth, death, and subsequent resurrection of the Messiah.

Sonbeam wrote:The fact that some goals have obviously not been accomplished as I see it is what leads me believe the 70th week is still in progress and will be completed when the LORD returns Keith.


I believe that this is "partially" true. The only part that I disagree with is that there is NO requirement for the 70th Week to have continued in this unintelligible "GAP" period that makes no sense. Again, I believe that the GOALS were only meant to be set in motion.

keithareilly wrote:I am not convinced all of Revelation Chapter 12 is future.


Keith, I agree with most of what Shorty has posted - with the exception that he yet still believes that the 70th Week has not been completed - and has this mysterious "GAP" that no one can understand. But he is correct about Revelation 12 being "future". Also to his credit on the "Who is He?" Thread - he as not ruled out the fact that the 3.5 year period may not be connected to the 70th week.

Now, in mentioning that, Scripture is quite clear about there being a future 3.5 year period. It further commences with the coming Antichrist and the very future AOD. What I have appreciated most about the Topic on Daniel that we've all been discussing, is that it has brought: correction; reproof and understanding that has certainly edified me. I thank you ALL who have participated. So with that being said :mrgreen: I am hoping that you will see that the events set forth in Revelation 11, 12, and 13 are very clearly FUTURE.

Furthermore, I am hoping that you all will consider what I have posted about the Goals that are mentioned in Daniel 9:24 do not have to be accomplished by the completion of the 70th week - "ONLY SET IN MOTION". And that the motion set forth by the birth, death, and subsequent Glorious Resurrection of the Messiah have fulfilled the Goals that were mentioned to be set forth and/or place in "motion" - DOES NOT negate the fact that the 70th Week has not been completed.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:05 pm

Mr Baldy,

I was hoping you would join in. Thanks.

I am certainly OK with the idea of things being set in motion.
For example, An END TO SIN.

John 8:31
31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

John 18:37
Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."


We must abide in His word before we can know the truth and before we can be free.
How could we abide in His word if He did not first "come into the world, to testify to the truth".

So Jesus came and testified during the 70 weeks. Because He did so, each of us who have heard his word over the last 2000 years can learn the truth and be free regardless of where in that 2000 years we were born.

Thus was it set in motion during the 70 weeks that each and all believers, for the last 2000 years, can be free.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:09 pm

Discussion about whether the 70 weeks are over or not is fine as long is it revolves about the goals.

I don't want arguments about the 70 weeks itself to distract or create a tangent from the goals.
Lets just accept that each has a different view and work together on the goals.


Keiht
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:21 pm

keithareilly wrote:That being said, tell me what logic rules out the parallel perspective and why the two 3.5 year periods should not be considered as the same event.


Hi Keith,
Well, I guess for me, the obvious reason is the clear language that has Depicted the events as occurring over a very long period of time. The first time I ever read I immediately became surprised at the second mention of the woman fleeing for 3.5 years!
I remember thinking, "what? why is the scripture saying that she is fleeing to the wilderness in vs 13? I thought she was Already There!"

In other words, it made no sense that she is depicted as fleeing twice if it was Representing the Same Event. From that moment ,I just had to accept it as so Because that's what I had been taught, and I must accept that it was so, even though it made zero sense to me!

Then, about 25 years ago, I set out to study prophecy from every different perspective that I could find. When I learned of the Timing of the 70 ad destruction and the 3.5 years the believers fled Jerusalem then, POW, Right in the Kisser, and that was it!...and That is why and where that account is given in vs 6, and the other account still yet future.

That is also One of the Reasons why I view Revelation 12as one of my favorite chapters in the Bible.

Have you ever read my short commentary on Revelation 12? It's the First thread I ever put on this forum. I've reposted that short first post in several other threads...not sure if you have seen it.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:26 pm

Shorttrib,

Post a link to Chapter 12 understanding and I shall read it.
I have problems with accepting one of the 3/5 years is part of 70Ad mostly because for that to work then Mary would have to be the woman and I have not found documentation about her whereabouts during that time frame. Can't be Israel as they were suffering the wrath not exempt from it. Can't be the church because the church did not give birth to the child.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:46 pm

keithareilly wrote:I have problems with accepting one of the 3/5 years is part of 70Ad mostly because for that to work then Mary would have to be the woman and I have not found documentation about her whereabouts during that time frame.

Why is that? The whole chapter is an interlude (Definitive Interlude) to the main vision...given immediately After the Seventh(Last)Trump.
It is in this place in the Book of Revelation to FOCUS on the Victory of the Woman's SEED over the Loser and his seed.


I'll find that commentary and post it here.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:52 pm

Here it is Keith...verse by verse.

vs 1 Eve is represented by the woman

vs 2 Eve's offspring Israel travails in labor with their PROMISED seed.

vs 3 Satan (the Loser).......notice he has not received any damage to one of his heads YET.

vs 4 The fallen angels who left their habitation in an attempt by Satan (the Loser) to pollute the PROMISED seed of Eve.
And pictured here is the Loser's attempt to destroy Christ through king Herod.

vs 5 The PROMISED seed comes, CONFIRMS.....THE.....PROMISE, bruises the Loser's head and returns to His Father and His throne.

vs 6 Eve's offspring Israel flees to safety during the three and a half year siege by Titus in 70 ad.

vs 7 Nearly 2,000 year span of time has transpired while the war in heaven has been ongoing, continuing today and will continue until the Loser and his other losers are cast out of heaven at verse 9.

vs 8-9 Here, at this time, is when the restrainer is taken out of the way (2thes 2:7). this also is an area of agreement i share with traditional prewrath, we agree that Michael the Archangel is the Restrainer, although it is not a critical to my position I feel he is the best candidate according to scriptural proof.

***Just note if you will the great tribulation reference regarding Michael @ Dan 12 and here we are @Rev 12....you are free to care less but I find little things like that very interesting.***

vs 10 Ok, here is where the rubber meets the road and we as saints and servants of God put OUR (Christ's and our) TESTIMONY into shoe-leather. This will be a battle-ROYAL......literaly......for the KINGDOM and WE WIN!

vs 11 Here is where He CONFIRMS us as KEEPERS of HIS COVENANT, this is when we have the faith....OF....Jesus.
(it's really going to be powerful brothers and sisters)

Here is when and where God will separate to Himself the true and faithful witnesses.
Palms 50:
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a COVENANT with me by SACRIFICE


vs 12 Part of the reason Daniel stands up STILL

vs 13-14 The 144,000 flee Jerusalem

vs 15-16 Flood Ref. fits Dan 9:26 IMO

vs 17 Another reference to the KEEPERS of the COVENANT (the saints), the rest of Eves offspring.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:40 am

Once again, a very interesting post!!
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Exit40 on Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:33 am

keithareilly wrote: And I do think our accuser being gone and our advocate being there is a huge change and that change happened during those 70 weeks. If I am correct about this, which I may not be, then how would that help accomplish the goals of Daniel 9:24?

So how do you think the change of our accuser being gone and our advocate being there might contribute to the goals of Daniel 9:24?


Hi Keith. I may agree about Steven actually seeing into Heaven, there are gates, or perhaps some sort of break or focus point between the dimensions, the waters of the Heavens and earth. Jacob's ladder is one of them. And these cannot be broken down or opened except by our Lord God, even the gates of hell, the war in Heaven, will not prevail against them. Consider this ...

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

As for our Advocate being in Heaven, the Throne Room actually, and our accuser being thrown out of there, making reconciliation for iniquity has been accomplished according to the Law and Prophets I think is the primary affect. Through Christ we are reconciled to God our Father as there is no longer an accuser nor accusations from him that our Father the Judge will accept. This portion of our 'trial' is over, our Advocate in 'Court' has won for us the Kingdom, this Judgement is set and cannot be undone. I'm trying not to get started here, as this is so glorious as to be the most important personal concept for each of us, we can know through Christ we are reconciled to God our Father and have access to the internal Kingdom and Eternal Life with Him. I don't know if there is a numerical order to the vs 24 goals, if one need be accomplished for the others to follow in suit. If there is this reconciliation is one of the first I would think. For instance, how can there be an end to sins, or bringing in everlasting righteousness if there is no reconciliation.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:28 am

Exit40 wrote,
For instance, how can there be an end to sins, or bringing in everlasting righteousness if there is no reconciliation.


So, "Reconciliation" must be part of the definition of the goals of Daniel 9:4.

Any disagreements from anybody on that?

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:49 am

Shorttrib wrote,
Rev 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


The reason why I think the "Now" is indeed our now is because of this verse
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

How could they overcome Satan without:
1) experiencing "salvation"
2) and the "power"
3) and "strength"
4) and the backing of another "Kingdom" ?

Per verse 10, during the same "Now", the following are made available together:
1) Salvation, 2) Strength, 3) Kingdom of God, 4) Power of His Christ

We know "Salvation" is available in our now,
Christ taught the "Kingdom of Heaven" was at hand 2000 years ago.
Since all 4 things are made available during the same "Now" per verse 10,
Then, If 1 of the 4 is available in "our now" then all 4 are available in "our now".
Verse 11 requires all four be available to those who overcome.
Therefore: all four must be available in "our now".

And if these things are available to us in our now, then, per verse 10, they are available to us because ...
"for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."



Keith
edited for clarity
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:21 pm

keithareilly wrote:How could they overcome Satan without:1) experiencing "salvation" 2) and the "power" 3) and "strength" 4) and the backing of another "Kingdom" ?Per verse 10, during the same "Now", the following are made available together:1) Salvation, 2) Strength, 3) Kingdom of God, 4) Power of His Christ


All of these are available to us Keith, but in part only. If we had Salvation now, in the fullness of the Meaning of it, we WOULD Not Sin, at all.

There is a Growing Process as individuals and corporately that we are Experiencing.

When That Time Comes...that in Part will be Done Away.

If we disagree, it's ok, but it's not because I deny the Power of God. On the Contrary, I establish it, in saying that Only He, in His time, will Grace us with That Fullness and Perfection.......BEFORE Christ Comes.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:01 pm

Shorttrib wrote
All of these are available to us Keith, but in part only. If we had Salvation now, in the fullness of the Meaning of it, we WOULD Not Sin, at all.


1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

Per scripture, The Christians who were addressed in this letter 2000 years ago may not sin.
Therefore, we today may not sin; but we do. Why?

We do not believe the power available to us here and now is sufficient for us to live the rest of our lives without sinning. Some will say, but no man is without sin. True, sin lives in each of us. But it need not reign in us. While sin lives in our flesh, We are no longer its slave, so we are free to not commit sin should we choose. Scripture does not say "when" any of us sin, it says "if" any of us sin. Sinning is now optional where as it was at one time mandatory through enslavement to sin.

Many will argue we do not have that kind of power available to us here and now. Why? Because in the end-times people will deny its power. And what is the result of denying that power? We continue to sin because we do not believe we have the power stop.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The power available to us here and now is sufficient to overcome Satan.
Perhaps we get more later; but, what we have here and now is sufficient.

Keith
Edited for clarity after initial post
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:29 pm

keithareilly wrote:We do not believe the power available to us here and now is sufficient for us to live the rest of our lives without sinning. Some will say, but no man is without sin. True, sin lives in each of us. But it need not reign in us. While sin lives in our flesh, We are no longer its slave, so we are free to not commit sin should we choose. Scripture does not say "when" any of us sin, it says "if" any of us sin. I say this and many will argue we do not have that kind of power available to us here and now.

I agree with all of the above.
keithareilly wrote:Why? Because in the end-times people will deny its power. And what is the result of denying that power?

This part I'm not in agreement with.
Maybe I agree in part, because Some, even Many or Most MAY use that as an excuse to sin...so in that I do agree in part.

Did you ever read a testimony I shared long ago on this forum....I will look to find it....
Well, I found it...and also found that I did share it with you before. That said....I would that you read it again to Understand that What happened was Not My Doing, it was HIS DOING....
I believe that I experienced a PORTION of that time to Come, when it is Normal, and NOT Miraculous.

But, Because I believe that the Time is not yet, is Not a denial of God's Power.

I will post it here again though, and please Notice how it had Nothing to do with MY Ability, but His GRACE Poured Out.


Keith,
There is a post I made a couple years ago that I think you would like to read.....you can read it below...

..................................................................................................................................
About thirty years ago, the Lord brought me to a place of thirsting and hungering after Him to such degree that for the space of about five or six months i averaged only about 3-5 hours sleep per night. my schedule went something like this.
Wake at 5am, praise God and pray for 3.5 hours, get ready for work in ten minutes start work at 9 and home at 5:20.
Run, literally run through the house eating usually cold hotdogs as fast as i could for ten minutes. then into the Word until about 10 or 11pm, then pray and praise God until 1 or 2 in the morning.
And it just continued like that until the Lord said, "I'm going to show you something".

Most of my prayer time prior to that moment was spent asking God, pleading with God to free me from sin, waiting on Him to reveal to me anything that kept me from the deepest intimacy with Him.

What happened for the next thirty days was a miracle....no other way to describe it. Brothers and Sisters, i'm being perfectly honest and i can assure you i'm not being delusional or just simply in error and what i'm about to say may sound absolutely impossible, but the Lord knows, it happened.

This is what happened.......from the time i woke till the time i slept for thirty days.......i did not sin.

I sought the Lord hours upon hours, "oh God, there must be something i've done, something in some way that i could have given you any sadness and displeasure in me"...........it was Him, it almost seemed as though i would have needed to force myself to sin. it was such a hidious thought to displease Him i just couldn't do it it seemed.

It ended after thirty days.....and that's all there is to it.....I'm a pitiful a sinner and as displeasing to God as any one of us.


But i know....i know we can Obey God fully .....When it is His doing.

{Watching quoted me}
shorttribber wrote:
But i know....i know we can Obey God fully .....When it is His doing.
watching wrote:
That would be the only way that that could be possible.
God would have to take complete control over our entire bodies. And it would have to be His doing, because there is
no other way we can have no sin in our lives.


{Then i/ST responded}
True, in part, it was not as if He had complete control as much as He had so magnified sin's ugliness that i chose to walk in the Spirit and just not fulfill the lust of the flesh, i just so strongly desired His pleasure rather than to sin
.
I still don't fully understand the dynamics of how it happened really.
...............................................................................................................................................

The time is coming Keith that i think this will become Common in the body of Christ, By His Grace....Before Christ returns for us.
Common Union With Christ will be Shared Completely then: Complete, Perfect Communion With Christ and his Entire Body...Before he Gathers us as his Bride..... Without Spot, Wrinkle, Or ANY SUCH THING
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:30 pm

keithareilly wrote:The power available to us here and now is sufficient to overcome Satan.Perhaps we get more later; but, what we have here and now is sufficient.
:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:44 pm

Hey shortrib,

Yes, I do remember reading that post.

I am addressing this issue again because it is important to understand the changes Christ brought about during the 70 weeks. What does "Salvation" mean if not being delivered from Sin and Death.
God has delivered us from enslavement to sin just as He delivered the Jews from Egyptian slavery.

This is the Definition of Christian Salvation.
What does it mean to be saved? Saved from What? Saved from Sin, its enslavement and its consequences.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Being Saved from the enslavement and the consequences of Sin contributes to the meaning of:
1) to make an end of sin (no more enslavement, free to no longer commit sin)
2) to make atonement for iniquity (Christ died in our stead, we need not fear death).


Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:56 pm

keithareilly wrote:God has delivered us from enslavement to sin just as He delivered the Jews from Egyptian slavery.This is the Definition of Christian Salvation.What does it mean to be saved? Saved from What? Saved from Sin, its enslavement and its consequences.

It is good to understand the definition. Salvation is an individual AND a corporate experience. We are all One in Christ. Christ, the firstfruit is Holy, and the Lump(Us) also. Salvation in the Fullest Sense is Once for All in Christ, and a Process of Growth Also.

Will continue later... gotta go for now...Bless ya.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:15 am

shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:The power available to us here and now is sufficient to overcome Satan.Perhaps we get more later; but, what we have here and now is sufficient.
:a3:


Revelation 12:10-11
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even [e]when faced with death.


And if we have the power to overcome Satan, then Satan has been thrown down. This is therefore a historical event.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:13 am

keithareilly wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
keithareilly wrote:The power available to us here and now is sufficient to overcome Satan.Perhaps we get more later; but, what we have here and now is sufficient.
:a3:
Revelation 12:10-1110 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even [e]when faced with death. And if we have the power to overcome Satan, then Satan has been thrown down. This is therefore a historical event.Keith


Keith,
My reference that would be in agreement with what you wrote regarding "Overcome", pertains to "Daily BATTLES". We Can and do Overcome Daily "Battles". The Reference in Rev 12:10 pertains to the END of the WAR.

SOME "Battles" we Do Not "Overcome"....now :banana: But We Will WIN THE "WAR"THEN. :banana:
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:24 am

Shorttrib,

Revelation 12 does not describe the end of the war.
It describes the war in Heaven as being won; but, says Satan has been thrown down to Earth.
And woe to the Earth means Satan is free, here on earth, to wreak havoc.
Those in the Heavens rejoice because Satan is gone from there, but those on earth are to woe for he is here.
The war is not yet over on earth and won't be until Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 12:12
12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who [f]dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

We are given the power to overcome him; but, we must yet overcome him because the war is not yet over for us here.

Now, that being said, the biggest argument against Satan being already thrown down is Ephesians 6:12

12 For our struggle is not against [a]flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

When Satan is/was thrown down, his angels are/were thrown down with him, so If Satan and his angels have been thrown down to earth, what evil powers are still in the heavenly places as described in Ephesians 6:12 ?

So maybe you are correct and this is not a historical event as I put forth.

I think I have reached the limits of my ability to understand on this one.
I am not able to reconcile Ephesians 6:12 with Luke 10:18 where Christ was watching Satan fall like lightening before Ephesians was written.


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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:05 am

keithareilly wrote:Revelation 12 does not describe the end of the war.

As far as the Saints/Faithful People of God it will be.
Rev 12 Describes the Victory of the promised SEED....War WITH The Promised SEED will Proceed no further after that.
keithareilly wrote:Now, that being said, the biggest argument against Satan being already thrown down is Ephesians 6:1212 For our struggle is not against [a]flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Correct.
keithareilly wrote:So maybe you are correct and this is not a historical event as I put forth.

Correct also. It's good that you can make that admission. The greater the Ability to make admission of Possible Error, the more we are made Capable to receive the facts.

Was looking at all the flood (Not H20 floods of course) references in prophecy this morning....WOW! What a great study!
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:30 pm

Shorttrib,

Luke 10:18-20
18And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.19“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

Ephesians 6:12
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 2:1-7
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


I am undecided.

One the one hand it could be as you say Christ was seeing the future not the present.
One the other hand the "heavenly places" may be referring to the air, as in "powers of the air", which is also called the heavens.

So I am undecided.

What is interesting is this phrase in Ephesians 2:6
6 and raised us up with Him, [b]and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus[b],

This is saying you and I are already raised up to heavenly places in Christ. As flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God, perhaps we do not understand that Heaven might actually be amongst us in the here and now. Thus did Christ say the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand 2000 years ago. Perhaps Heaven is not a distance away in the terms of space and time but in terms of spirit verses flesh. If such is the case then it may very well be that Satan was thrown down when Christ saw it and "the powers of the air" are describing Satan's interim domain.

Again, I do not have a concrete position on this.
I just am not smart enough to trust my judgement should I choose between speculations.
Christ said he was watching Satan fall from Heaven. Ephesians say we are fighting wicked powers in the heavens.
To me, these are in conflict, and I hesitate to adopt one speculation over another about the meaning of either; I really don't like the idea that scriptures do not mean what they say literally. I am more comfortable with paradox than with saying scripture does not mean what it says. This is a big reason I do not have an end times theory.


Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:51 pm

I think David has made a good point, and therefore neither of the scriptures are in conflict....I certainly see no conflict from my position.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:28 pm

Shorttrib,

Yes,

David did make a good point and I have not ruled out his point of view.

So, it seems we all agree we have some power, enough to overcome our daily battles with Sin and the ability to not Sin should we choose. If we agree I am going to add this to my definition of the what happened during the 70 weeks.

Am I correct we agree upon this?

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:41 pm

keithareilly wrote:Shorttrib,

Yes,

David did make a good point and I have not ruled out his point of view.

So, it seems we all agree we have some power, enough to overcome our daily battles with Sin and the ability to not Sin should we choose. If we agree I am going to add this to my definition of the what happened during the 70 weeks.

Am I correct we agree upon this?

Keith


Yes. That's an accurate conclusion I think.

.....edited for clarity......
Last edited by shorttribber on Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:09 pm

David, Mr Baldy, Woody, Sonbeam, Brett, others,


Do you agree or should it be discussed more?

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:19 pm

keithareilly wrote:<snip>
When Satan is/was thrown down, his angels are/were thrown down with him, so If Satan and his angels have been thrown down to earth, what evil powers are still in the heavenly places as described in Ephesians 6:12 ?

So maybe you are correct and this is not a historical event as I put forth.

I think I have reached the limits of my ability to understand on this one.
I am not able to reconcile Ephesians 6:12 with Luke 10:18 where Christ was watching Satan fall like lightening before Ephesians was written.


Keith


Keith

The translation of the Greek word, " ἐκ ", ek, is the issue you are facing in Luke 10:18. The traditional manner in which it is usually translated is, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." NKJV. However, when we consider the Greek word " ἐκ ", which has the Strong Number 1537, there are only two variations in the Greek for this Strong Number, " ἐκ " which occurs 685 times in the new Testament and " ἐξ " which occurs 236 times in the New Testament.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

out of, from, by means of

A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote) -- after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in,...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.


Now if we look at another possibility of how this verse could have been translated and with only changing how " ἐκ " is translated from , "out of" or "from" to "in," in the context of what Jesus said to his disciples, the following is how this verse would read: -

3004 [e]
eipen
εἶπεν
he said

1161 [e]
de
δὲ
moreover
846 [e]
autois
αὐτοῖς ,
to them
2334 [e]
Etheōroun
Ἐθεώρουν
I beheld
3588 [e]
ton
τὸν
- {Not translated here but it is often translated as "the".}
4567 [e]
Satanan
Σατανᾶν
Satan
5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
as
796 [e]
astrapēn
ἀστραπὴν
lightning
1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
out of - {Or as I have highlighted above in the Strong definition above, it could also be translated as "in".}
3588 [e]
tou
τοῦ
the - {This Greek word denotes the importance of the word that follows and as such is often left untranslated.}
3772 [e]
ouranou
οὐρανοῦ
heaven
4098 [e]
pesonta
πεσόντα .
having fallen


Now putting the above words into an English sentence we would read: -
He said moreover to them, " I beheld Satan, as lightning in heaven, having fallen."


When we think of lightening, we can consider it as being like "anger" when it is attributed to a person as a characteristic of his behaviour.

In other words, Jesus saw Satan being angry in heaven, because his influence over people was being reduced by the disciples, as they ministered to the people in the villages, that they were visiting.

Keith, just thought that the above exercise would be of some help to you.

Shalom

Jay Ross

{Source: - Hub Bible on the Internet}

Also please note that where I have added my comments to a quote above I have done so by highlighting my words in blue and making the text italics.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby brett on Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:32 pm

keithareilly wrote:David, Mr Baldy, Woody, Sonbeam, Brett, others,

Do you agree or should it be discussed more?

Keith


Briefly,

Presently satan dwells in the heavenly realms. There is a future war in heaven between the Arc Angel Michael (and his angels) and the Dragon (and his angels). This occurs just prior to the AOD moment, the time of great distress (unequalled distress) starting, when Michael stands up. This is when the Anti-Christ comes back to life (false counterfeit miracle of Christs resurrection) and declares himself God on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the AOD moment. This is the MOMENT when satan is cast down to earth and enters into the Anti-Christ. Its the casting down of satan that starts the period of the Great Tribulation here on earth, which starts at the AOD and lasts a period of 75 days. The 75 day Great tribulation period is cut short by the return of Christ on the "Day of the Lord", Sun and moon being darkened, Christ in the clouds in great glory, the rapture & 30 mins later the beginning of God's Wrath. This all happens on the same day (the Day of the Lord). Gods Wrath then continues another 1215 days, Trumpets and Bowls, which are poured out roughly simultaneously, Trumpet 1, Bowl 1, Trumpet 2, Bowl 2, Trumpet 3, Bowl 3....etc.

That's my belief.

.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:15 pm

Jay,

Very nice post. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to evaluate it on merit. I did however lookup some of the Greek words. My impression from what I read was "ek" is frequently translated poorly but does have an association with "from-to", "source destination". But I am no expert on Greek.

Some years ago, while studying with a Jehovah Witness, I came across a website that provided various possible renderings for Geek verses. Unfortunately, I have not been able to locate this website for some time. Usually, when I encounter a difficulty such as I am experiencing here, I would examine possible alternative translations and meanings. I had available to me as a child, a KJV that had alternate meaning write in the text within braces. I wish I had a similar more exhaustive book available today.

Thanks for your post.

What alternative renderings could be yielded from Ephesians 6:12 concerning
"against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. " ?


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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

keithareilly wrote:What alternative renderings could be yielded from Ephesians 6:12 concerning "against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. " ?


Hi Keith,

I really don't know what you mean by "alternative renderings" as it relates to the Spiritual forces of Wickedness in Heavenly Places. Scripture is very clearly that we must put on the "Whole Amor of God".

The Final 3.5 years mentioned in Scripture is quite clear. It is Future. There are many who will want to "spiritualize" or "sensationalize" the actions of the coming Antichrist with sophistry, and very imaginative nonsense. I like to view Scripture in a more Practical Way - as practicality may apply.

For instance, in my very humble opinion - using both Scripture and "common sense" there is no Future "False Prophet". Nor does Satan "Indwell" the coming Antichrist as this very fictitious; very sensationalized; book selling; money making; let me "tickle your ears" Modern Day False Leaders in Prophecy want to put forth. It's ALL NONSENSE. And all you have to do is view Scripture for yourself to figure it out.

In my very humble opinion, there will be a Future World Leader who will reign for 3.5 years. It will be him, and he alone who will be working under the Power of Satan - NOT that Satan himself indwells him. So let's put the "sensationalism" on the shelf for a moment. His reign will begin EXACTLY as Scripture says it will - and that will be at the AOD.

Because the coming Antichrist will be working behind the "Powers of Satan"; of course the Angelic Fallen Host will assist him in order to carry out Satan's Mission - but again, this does not mean that Satan has indwelled this man to the point of becoming Satan "incarnate" as the very fictitious books will have you believe. It's just pure utter NONSENSE.

This man will have his reign - as predicted by Scripture. But His demise, is a very separate demise than Satan's - although they both ultimately end up in the Lake of Fire. He will be cast ALIVE into the Lake of Fire at the Coming of Christ - and without Judgment. Satan will be captured and place into prison for 1,000 years - and later cast into the Lake of Fire AFTER the 1,000 year Reign of Christ. So please understand this.

Dear Readers, please do your own research. Please UNDERSTAND that there are certain elements that MUST be put into Place before the Ultimate Return of Christ can occur. And they deal with the Spiritual Realm. The Antichrist MUST be Revealed prior to the Return of Christ & the Rapture of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

So the Church will Be Here on Earth During the Tribulation Period (most of it) and SOME Believers will still be Here PRIOR to His Ultimate Return.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:30 pm

Hi Mr. Baldy.

Glad to hear from you. Bible verses are translated from the Greek to English. As you know, some verses have many translations. Are they all correct? Perhaps, Perhaps not. For example the camel through the eye of the needle is talking about a narrow passageway not a real needle. The translation is correct, but the meaning may not be clear without some knowledge of the passageway.

I don't have an end times view. I am however, trying to identify what has been accomplished during the 70 weeks. As I said previously, I am going to push the boundaries to see where things fall apart. It in this manner I come to a conclusion of what is certain and what is maybe.

I do still think when Christ said He saw Satan Fall from heaven He was talking about Revelation 12. However, there is sufficient logical reason to question the accuracy of my own conclusion. So while I think it is true, I recognize it may not be true and am not willing to build upon something that is questionable; even when what I am questioning are my own conclusions.

Consequently, I have taken out that Satan was cast out of Heaven from what I proposed happened during the 70 weeks.
Again, I don't have an end times theory and as you can see I do not know enough to form one.

Do you agree with the conclusion that, as a consequence of what was accomplished during the 70 weeks, we are granted sufficient power to over come sin in our lives, that is we are free to not sin if we choose to not sin?

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:36 pm

Mr Baldy,

I do have some ideas about end times but honestly they are speculation.

For example, I have no doubt that the world may well unit under a single government prior to Christ's return.
It would not surprise me if this is Christ's strategy so that when He returns the necessary governmental structures are already in place for Him to rule.

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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:42 am

keithareilly wrote:Do you agree with the conclusion that, as a consequence of what was accomplished during the 70 weeks, we are granted sufficient power to over come sin in our lives, that is we are free to not sin if we choose to not sin?


No I do not agree.

We are sinful by nature. No one can not sin, it's just simply going to happen. We have sins that we commit by our unawares. The aforementioned statement that you made would mean we have the ability to live a Perfect Life. No man can do that - hence the Need for a Savior.

As I have mentioned before, I believe that the 70th week has been concluded. The requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 pointed to the 1st coming of Christ; His ultimate sacrifice (death) and Resurrection; and the fact that it would be He who would fulfill those requirements. The requirements don't have to be completed, but it is He who is the Foundation that has brought the established requirements "IN" , and will subsequently "BRING" them to completion upon His Return.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Exit40 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:14 am

keithareilly wrote:So, it seems we all agree we have some power, enough to overcome our daily battles with Sin and the ability to not Sin should we choose. If we agree I am going to add this to my definition of the what happened during the 70 weeks.

Am I correct we agree upon this?


I think we need more discussion. If the 70 weeks are contiguous and fulfilled, then the conditions of vs 24 are also. All of them must be achieved, not made possible at some future time outside of the 70 weeks. Good discussion, I am revisiting my former assessment on reconciliation too. We might need to bone up on Temple Sacrifices and their full meanings to address all of this. And how it is that Christ has fulfilled them, if indeed He has, fully, which seems to be a condition of the Prophecy too.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:44 am

keithareilly wrote:
Do you agree with the conclusion that, as a consequence of what was accomplished during the 70 weeks, we are granted sufficient power to over come sin in our lives, that is we are free to not sin if we choose to not sin?


I do not agree, we are all sinners, no one in the world is perfect.
We do have the Holy Spirit to guide and counsel us and I am nothing like the person I was before I surrendered to Christ, but i am still a sinner.... we have to walk by Faith, if we were not sinners, then what is Faith?
Jesus has the Power, not us....as I see it....

Mr Baldy wrote;
As I have mentioned before, I believe that the 70th week has been concluded. The requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 pointed to the 1st coming of Christ; His ultimate sacrifice (death) and Resurrection; and the fact that it would be He who would fulfill those requirements. The requirements don't have to be completed, but it is He who is the Foundation that has brought the established requirements "IN" , and will subsequently "BRING" them to completion upon His Return.


I'm understanding this and it makes sense .... there is no gap with this statement.... very well!!
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:20 am

Exit40 wrote:I think we need more discussion. If the 70 weeks are contiguous and fulfilled, then the conditions of vs 24 are also. All of them must be achieved, not made possible at some future time outside of the 70 weeks. Good discussion, I am revisiting my former assessment on reconciliation too. We might need to bone up on Temple Sacrifices and their full meanings to address all of this. And how it is that Christ has fulfilled them, if indeed He has, fully, which seems to be a condition of the Prophecy too.


I agree David - we do need more discussion.
But I disagree that "All of them must be achieved" (meaning the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24)

If you notice it says: "TO BRING" in each of those requirements - not fulfill or complete each of them.

Great Discussion Guys! :grin:
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:50 am

Mr Baldy,
I'm truly enjoying reading this discussion....

Since learning so much about the 70 weeks and the 70th week...it changes the views or clarifications as you see in Revelation...
Now, if you can, you could make a new thread in this, I have a few questions...

How do you see the Day of the Lord now? or the LAST DAY? or where does the Wrath fits in the 3 1/2 period?
It does need more discussions.... come think of it, when Christ comes, is it a Glorious and Vengeance DAY?

Many blessings!!!
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:26 pm

Brothers and sisters,

Please continue discussing. I want to hear what you have to say.

Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:45 pm

I will...the others will also I think.
I think Woody made that suggestion to Mr. B. just for this thread stay the course you intended.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:14 pm

shorttribber wrote:I will...the others will also I think.
I think Woody made that suggestion to Mr. B. just for this thread stay the course you intended.

Yes, this is a great discussion....
Shorttribber,
I enjoyed reading many of your posts, I was amazed by many of your challenging comments that got me thinking and studying as well for Mr Baldy and Keith... I just want nothing but the Truth, its not about who's right or wrong....it was very edifying for me when I learned Daniel 9:24-27....I never actually believed in the 7 year Tribulation, but I did believe that there was a 7 year period... now thats cleared...

At this point I tend to think Daniels 70th week is fulfilled... but you had some interesting points about after the "cutoff"....I'm continuing my study on this...

Lets continue brothers and sisters!!
In Christ Always,
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:26 pm

The problem we have with Daniel 9:24-27 is that some "bright" mathematician observed that the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24 is the answer to the summation of the weeks listed in Daniel 9:25 and 27 and concluded that the time span in Daniel 9:24 must encompasses the three time spans in Daniel 9:25 and 27. This is not true as the short five prophetic words given in Daniel 9:24-27 are all independent of each other and are not dependent on each other with respect to their actual time of fulfilment.

Let us consider the first prophetic word given in Daniel 9:24. This prophecy can be broken up into two halves/sections with both being fulfilled by your people in Jerusalem.

In the first section of this prophecy, a time limit of 490 years is given for Daniel people and particularly the priests of the Temple in Jerusalem had to: -
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,

The dominate transgression in Israel, during the first and second ages of their existence, was their idolatrous worship of idols, which meant that they had turned away from God and were manifesting many other sins in their lives as well.

God knew that the Israelite nation would not repent of their primary transgression nor would they stop sinning because God had prophetically told them within the bounds of the Covenant that he had entered into with them, which they had rebelled against within 40 or so days, that the idolatrous sins of the fathers during their first and second ages of their existence would be visited upon their children and their children's children during the third and the fourth ages of their existence.

God also graciously informed them in the second half of this prophecy that after the completion of the 490 years in the first half of this prophecy, that a representative of Daniel's people in Jerusalem, who we now know was Christ during His first advent, would cause/fulfil the following for the sake of Israel and those who are grafted into Israel: -
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.


The second half of this Daniel 9:24 prophecy was fulfilled after the 490 years had passed and was not completed/fulfilled until around 33 years had passed from when the 490 year period of grace had ended.

I will add more later.

Shalom
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby brett on Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:03 pm

.
I just want to make sure my position is clear. I am in disagreement with this growingly weird position that many of you seem to be settling upon, that Daniels 70th week is already complete, 70AD, days=years etc. It seems to me that as a group you are straying from what the scriptures actually say. The fellowship aspect of this discussion is good, its good we're all getting along, but the conclusions being drawn are going off in a wrong direction, imho.

The 70 weeks of Daniel are NOT complete. We are still waiting on Daniels 70th week - it hasn't happened yet.

I'm still waiting for Daniels 70th Week - a FULL 7 YEARS. The 1st 3.5 years being WW3, rise of AC & Seals 1,2,3,4,5
The mid point being the AOD
Last 3.5 years containing 75 days of the MOB, the return of Christ, rapture and the last 1215 days being Gods Wrath

So I expect increasing persecution of the saints & World War 3 (Seals) to be the next thing on the horizon.

All this talk about 70AD is a mistake (an error) that has lead many of you astray imho, leading to wrong conclusions. Looks like my job here has become one of warning about WW3. I believe the Seals of Revelation will be the next thing to come. So far NONE of them have occurred, they will all unfold quickly one after the other in a 3.5 year period. I think its important we realise increasing persecution and WW3 are the next things coming. The Seals of Revelation are the rise of the Anti-Christ, via world war.

Ok I said my bit, I'll clock off again now....

.
Last edited by brett on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:04 pm

shorttribber wrote:I think Woody made that suggestion to Mr. B. just for this thread stay the course you intended.


Shorty, I'm not sure Woody is suggesting that.

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Mr Baldy,I'm truly enjoying reading this discussion....Since learning so much about the 70 weeks and the 70th week...it changes the views or clarifications as you see in Revelation...Now, if you can, you could make a new thread in this, I have a few questions...How do you see the Day of the Lord now? or the LAST DAY? or where does the Wrath fits in the 3 1/2 period? It does need more discussions.... come think of it, when Christ comes, is it a Glorious and Vengeance DAY?


Hi Woody,

I certainly would be glad to answer any questions you may have to the very best of my ability - but this is Keith's Thread. If he will allow it to expand then I would certainly be glad to respond accordingly. :grin:
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:09 pm

brett wrote:I just want to make sure my position is clear. I am in disagreement with this growingly weird position that many of you seem to be settling upon, that Daniels 70th week is already complete, 70AD etc. It seems to me that as a group you are straying from what the scriptures actually say. The fellowship aspect of this discussion is good, its good we're all getting along, but the conclusions being drawn are going off in a wrong direction, imho.


Brett, certainly you are entitled to your opinion - but please allow the thread to flourish with information. You just may learn something.

brett wrote:The 70 weeks of Daniel are NOT complete. We are still waiting on Daniels 70th week - it hasn't happened yet.


And again, if Keith will allow it - as this topic has been discussed on another Thread. But if he will allow it to be expanded - surely the Truth will be discovered. We have a lot of great minds in this Forum. Surely edification and Truth will develop as we all continue to share Scriptural information. :grin:
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:30 pm

Jay Ross wrote:The problem we have with Daniel 9:24-27 is that some "bright" mathematician observed that the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24 is the answer to the summation of the weeks listed in Daniel 9:25 and 27 and concluded that the time span in Daniel 9:24 must encompasses the three time spans in Daniel 9:25 and 27. This is not true as the short five prophetic words given in Daniel 9:24-27 are all independent of each other and are not dependent on each other with respect to their actual time of fulfilment.


Jay Ross, I have vowed not to respond to any more of your comments (unless you keep your comments based on Scripture) - but you do bring up an interesting point. And because in my very humble opinion, your interpretation of Scripture certainly leaves a lot to be desired - you have yet hit on a point that should be considered. I only respectfully ask that you STICK with Scripture on any future responses, and not go off on this outrageous nonsensical voyage of a fanatical world of delusions to make your point.

Now, the point that you bring up that has at least peaked my interest, is your first sentence in your aforementioned comments. Let me respectfully remind you that the 70 weeks of Prophecy listed in Daniel 9:24-27 is a "Continuum" - and not some eschatological mystic scenario that must incorporate the "Angelic Host" as you often like to bring up.

While I agree with you that the prophetic words given in Daniel 9:24-27 are all "independent of each other and are not dependent on each other with respect to their actual time or fulfillment" - they absolutely HAVE to be BROUGHT IN as it relates to the 70th Week.

In my very humble opinion:

The BRINGING IN - was fulfilled with the Coming of Christ at Birth; His Death - and Resurrection.

This particular Prophecy ALL Pointed to Christ.

So, with all due respect, lets keep this very practical so that the entire Body of Christ who may be reading this may be edified.
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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:35 pm

Mr Baldy wrote,

And again, if Keith will allow it - as this topic has been discussed on another Thread. But if he will allow it to be expanded - surely the Truth will be discovered. We have a lot of great minds in this Forum. Surely edification and Truth will develop as we all continue to share Scriptural information. :grin:


OK, But when you are making your posts, please tie it back to at least one point about how what you post has to do with the definition of the 70 goals.

It is just as important to understand how the definition of the completion of the 70 weeks affects the definition of the goals as it is to understand how the lack of completion might affect the definition. Perhaps through exploring these differences in the definition of the goals with support from other scriptures we can reach a consensus about the goals regardless of what we think about the 70 weeks completion.

For examples:
1) One can argue if the 70 weeks are over then the goals mean such and such and this is supported by the following scriptures.
2) One the other hand one might say the goals mean this and that means the 70 weeks are incomplete and the following scripture support that definition and therefore supports the weeks are not yet finished.



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Re: Daniel 9:24 Goals, what do they mean?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:49 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy wrote,

And again, if Keith will allow it - as this topic has been discussed on another Thread. But if he will allow it to be expanded - surely the Truth will be discovered. We have a lot of great minds in this Forum. Surely edification and Truth will develop as we all continue to share Scriptural information. :grin:


OK, But when you are making your posts, please tie it back to at least one point about how what you post has to do with the definition of the 70 goals.

It is just as important to understand how the definition of the completion of the 70 weeks affects the definition of the goals as it is to understand how the lack of completion might affect the definition. Perhaps through exploring these differences with support from other scriptures we can reach a consensus about the goals regardless of what we think about the 70 weeks completion.

Keith


Keith, the only point I was making is that VERY, Very, very ....often times GREAT and very edifying; valuable information gets lost when one Limits any Thread. There is a lot of information that gets processed, and to start something over from it's Original base sometimes leads to confusion, or often does not Edify completely (in most cases).

But, it's entirely up to you. I for one have NEVER suggested that someone start a different Thread on a point that has been made that leads to another thought, that may be related to the Original Post. But of course this is just my thinking, and ONLY my very Humble Opinion.
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